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<v Elizabeth Oles>Hi, everyone. I'd just like to welcome you to today's session.</v>

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My name's Elizabeth Oles and I'm the Associate Artistic Director of Australian

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Dance Theater.

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Today's session that you're here attending is thinking bodies and it's presented

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by ADT. And just before we kick off this,

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just a few really important things that I'd like to say. Firstly,

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I'd like to acknowledge that we're gathered here on the traditional country of

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the Ghana people of the Adelaide Plains,

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and we recognize and respect their cultural heritage,

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beliefs and relationships. With this land,

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we acknowledge that they are of continuing importance to the garner people

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living today,

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and that we respect their elders past and present just a few

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housekeeping things. Please switch your mobile phones to silent,

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and you're welcome to connect with the Adelaide festival of ideas

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through tweet. The handle is at ADL FOI.

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The hashtag is hashtag ADL FOI, and on in's Instagram,

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it's also at ADL FOI. Please do not record this session.

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It is being very kindly recorded by John at the back there.

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And that will be put up on the Adelaide festival of ideas website.

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And at the end of the session,

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there's also going to be the opportunity for you to ask questions.

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There is a microphone on a stand at the back. So if you have any questions,

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please form an orderly queue at the mic.

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So I'd now like to welcome to the stage. Scoth Delahunta,

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Thomas vanilla, Zoe Dunwoody, Kimball Wong, and Kate Stevens.

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Thank you.

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<v 1>[Inaudible].</v>

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<v Scott Delahunta>Hello, welcome. Thank you very much.</v>

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And my name's I'm Scott Delahunta.

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And could you just say your names again because you were standing up for.

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<v Kimball Wong>I'm Kimball Wong How long have you been with the ADT?</v>

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I've been with ADT for nearly nine years.

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<v Zoe Dunwoodie>Zoe Dunwoodie. And I've been at ADT for four years.</v>

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<v Kimball Wong>Thomas Wynnona and I've been here for about.</v>

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<v Scott Delahunta>Two years and I'm lucky enough to have been working with at least these guys for</v>

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three years and Thomas for the last two.

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And what we're going to do today is we're going to discuss three

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experiments that we worked on collaboratively over the last three years.

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One is on memory and tour on creativity.

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So our ideas to just share with you some of the experiences that we had setting

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up those experiments with the dancers and

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collecting the data and doing some of the data interpretation,

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but also some of the ways in which we've somehow shared and understood new forms

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of terminology together,

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which I think has been a very crucial aspect of what we've done.

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And after we finished that will take about 40 minutes or so the timer is

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right there. It's very clear how much time we have.

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And as lip said,

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we'll open up for questions afterwards and there's a mic in the background to do

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that. So I really do our plan is really to give some opportunity for questions,

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many of which I'm sure we'll open up over these next 40 minutes. So my,

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our job here for the next 10 minutes or so is to talk about this experiment

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in long-term memory

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also with Kate who will help a little bit as well.

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So long-term memory for dance. Why is it interesting?

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And one of the things about you guys as dancers,

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you're really working in the contemporary field.

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So you may have some training that overlaps with ballet, but really more,

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much more in the contemporary field. And you guys are inventing new movements,

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it's right up there written they're using a building movement and phrases.

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So they very much contribute to the creative process.

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So for those of you who aren't so familiar with dance,

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this might be new information that there,

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there is much involved in the creative process as Gary and Lebar as well.

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So they make a huge contribution.

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And one of the things that about that in terms of memory is that they have

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extremely good memory for the movements that they not only create,

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but that they teach to each other and they learn from each other and also in

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performance. So from a scientific point of view,

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understanding these VR, this very complex form of memory

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and how that, how all of that information, all,

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all those movement forms are stored in the body can be of extreme interest from

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the point of view of cognitive science or embodied cognition in enhancing our

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understanding of that particular phenomenon. So from the science side,

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there's a lot of interest. And from the dance side,

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a better understanding scientifically could have big benefits for the field

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itself. So this is some of the terrain that we're been moving around in,

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and this particular experimental setup now in the next slide, Kate.

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So this is something I'd really like to try to get across also with you guys is

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the the extent at which this process has been

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collaborative, the extent to which we've been designing experiments together,

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that's called participatory design. There is a precedent for it,

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but it's also slightly unusual. It involves it's a different way.

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A more classical sense of design might be that the scientists design the

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experiments,

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determine what the variables should be and come into the studio and collect the

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data and go away and study the data. And our relationship with you has been,

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we've tried to be much more engaged in what it is that we're doing. So

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we set out to develop the experiment together.

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And part of that involved a conversation at the beginning before we started

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quite a long conversation and our goal was, and Kate,

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you can jump in any time, if you a cause Kate's a psychologist,

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I'm more from the dance side. Our goal was to find a,

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in order to study memory from a scientific perspective,

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you're really looking for when memory fails.

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Is there anything you want to add about that?

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<v Zoe Dunwoodie>Yeah, I guess there's a journalist said to me years ago. Well,</v>

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what's the big thing about memory and dance. It's just like running.

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So there's an interesting question.

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Just what makes dance different from a cognitive point of view.

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And there's a distinction in cognitive psychology between

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procedural kinds of memory and declarative memory. So general knowledge,

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semantic knowledge memory for particular episodes in our lives.

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So I think there was a kind of an assumption here that we were seeing if memory

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for dance was any more than memory for something like running. So there is,

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of course in the creativity of dance, there's a, it is an intellectual pursuit.

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It is a cognitive kind of exchange,

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even though it is embodied and very much using the body.

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As Scott said,

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when I run experiments with very often first year psychology students,

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it's very easy to set up situations where I give them novel materials and then I

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test their memory for them. And I look at,

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or I come to understand memory from the pattern of errors that they make,

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not what they succeed on,

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but the pattern of errors working with ADT and other dance companies,

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of course their job is to have a hundred percent accuracy in memory.

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When you see the performance, it is precise every night.

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It is pretty much the same. So this was the memory challenge.

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It was finding a method,

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working with the dancers to come up with an experiment where in a safe

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kind of a way we actually set up circumstances where we might see some,

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some lapses in memory that we don't always see in the performing kind of

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context. Scott, do you want to talk about the way the dancers came up with that?

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<v Scott Delahunta>Well, we spent,</v>

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we spent some time just discussing with you the issue of memory in your work

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and what happens when you forget things, you know,

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the experience of forgetting or the kinds of variables that might contribute to,

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to forgetting or having a challenge with memory. And do you remember Kimball?

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You talked a little bit about, well,

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you talked quite a lot for about an hour and a half about different phenomenon,

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but you mentioned something,

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it wasn't Kimball just talking for one hour and a half. You got it all on tape,

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but this phenomenon of freezing somehow. Can you say something?

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<v Kimball Wong>Sure.</v>

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So I guess what I was discussing is while particularly in

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performance onstage, you can, I've certainly had,

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it's certainly happened to me many times where you feel like you actually don't

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know what's coming next. Like you've lapsed,

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you've forgotten what the next step is,

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but somehow the body just keeps going and it does the right steps.

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And you're not sure how you did it and obviously it's through the brain,

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but it feels like your body just takes over and gets on with the job until you

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go, oh, I'm back on track. Okay, good. We're going. So yeah, for me, it's,

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that's a very strange sensation when you realize you don't feel like you're

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thinking, but you're continuing the movement correctly, I suppose. Yeah.

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<v Scott Delahunta>So extraordinary phenomenon, something else we could try to,</v>

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we didn't study that in particular,

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but obviously an extraordinary phenomenon that one could try to imagine how to

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study.

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So we're just collecting all of these possible variables that might give us a

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way in which we could conduct some kind of a, an experiment. And Zoe, are you,

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I asked, I asked you to think about the emotional dimension of this.

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Do you remember what it is that you,

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you said about emotion is a variable that kind of like the things that

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contribute to forgetting or not, or remembering material?

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<v Zoe Dunwoodie>Yeah. So I guess when you're learning material, there's a lot of,</v>

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you know, you might be having not such a very memorable day in general,

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like you're just, you're just coming into work and you're just doing your thing.

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And the next day you might not remember anything.

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So it's kind of like, yeah, you,

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you might not connect as well with the material that you're learning.

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So therefore it doesn't really get ingrained in the body as well. Or

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maybe you have to learn it by yourself, offer for video and that, and that's,

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I guess a lot harder than when you're actually interacting with someone and

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they're giving you lots of feedback on what what you're learning.

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So I guess the emotional variables kind of huge really,

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and also, I guess it's

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being in a space that, you know, you're,

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you're using parts of the space as well,

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like your surroundings to remember what you've learnt as well.

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So there's lots of things. Yeah.

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<v Scott Delahunta>You've broken out another variable and other one was space how you might rely on</v>

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space to remember things or music. So these were this,

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we were in this conversation that we were just in a way probing for all of the

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different kinds of things that might constitute variables within the memory

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landscape of your experience.

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And I Thomas you had one other that I wanted to ask you to just say something.

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<v Kimball Wong>So I said,</v>

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because I just come to the company I didn't, I've only just,

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I was only just exposed to the way we were rehearsing with ADT for about two

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months before we had this experiment.

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And I was sort of going off of my previous experience with my previous company

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and learning material where there's something that needed to that a term that I

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never really was used to was, which was I'll let you sleep on it, you know?

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So like you can, if you're not getting it today, let you sleep on it.

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You can come back tomorrow, probably be sit better.

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Whereas in my previous company there was that wasn't the option. So like,

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like you get it now. You're not going to go.

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You're not going home until you get it. So I think the way in which,

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or the methods in which that you are,

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that you're taught and that you were rehearsed

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I think sort of has an impact on how you remember things as well.

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So if you're obviously repetition is a huge thing that we do just regardless

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across all boards with other companies,

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but the way that the repetition and the stress that's put on a certain

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situation differently has impacts on how long you remember something.

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<v Scott Delahunta>So the kind of conditions that come with working with a particular company.</v>

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So this was the range of different kinds of variables we had.

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We had over two dozen that showed up in that conversation.

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But one thing was absolutely clear throughout the conversation is that Kate and

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I would have great difficulty figuring out what the dancers,

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where it is that they would lapse what it is that they might forget in

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performing, because it was also clear.

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You had lots of strategies for coming up with ways of remembering.

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So the challenge that we gave them was to,

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we broke into two groups and we asked you to think of something

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that one of your colleagues in the other group would never remember.

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So the memory challenge, if you go to the next page, Kate,

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their memory challenge resulted in a collection of phrases. That,

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for that, for example, Kimball was challenged with this first one here,

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this small phrase from a section of not Zoe was challenged with Lazarus,

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from G Jake, with rugged ballet, et cetera, et cetera.

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You went into another room and you didn't know that you were going to be

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presented with this particular phrase as a challenge to remember.

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And so you came out of the back room and then somebody,

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one of your colleagues said, Kimball,

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your solo bit to try to remember is not from the end,

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the end end phrase of not. And that's the way we presented it to them.

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And then we recorded them the next. And could you play the first one?

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So on the left,

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you see Scott Ewen coming out to perform the mind solar from G

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and on the right, we put the clip of the other dancer, whose name,

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I don't know who is this other one here? That's Matt, that's Maddie performing.

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And you'll see Scott on the left working through the task.

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And in many ways he's not doing too bad. He's clumping parts of it.

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He's getting some of it. Could you play Jake?

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And Jake's on the bottom. Now Jake's going to try to do rugged ballet.

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Dan's solo from G so clearly getting parts of it.

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Not all of it.

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<v 1>[Inaudible].</v>

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<v Scott Delahunta>And then another bit, okay, next page. So,</v>

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so we collected all of that material in video,

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and then Kim Vince from deacon university, Dick emotion lab,

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who was not able to be here today analyze the data that we had analyzed the

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videos by counting movements as one way of clumping.

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So simply counting the number of movements that they did in each one of the

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phrases. And she found some general.

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And the other thing we did is we asked you with a questionnaire afterwards to

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recount more information, more qualitative information about that experience.

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And then here's just a slight,

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a bit of a glimpse into some of the results in a way you could say

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responses from the questionnaire.

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So the kinds of things that they could remember,

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the fact that music wasn't so necessary,

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and I'll draw your attention to the last response that came from the

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questionnaire. So this is coming directly from you,

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the sense that if you had performed the movement,

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it would be easier to remember because this was part of the discussion.

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So that's kind of an assumption,

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but in the data itself that showed up in the analysis,

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that seems to not be the case. So interestingly enough,

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no real difference between whether you'd performed it before by that,

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by by you or not. So that's,

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that's some of the sorts of insights that we were looking for.

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Oftentimes the data that we come up with, it might not surprise.

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You kind of confirm something they already do know because there's so much about

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their practice. They know, but occasionally we find some nugget, some discovery,

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which is seems to contradict something that you assume.

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And the last one on the bottom is a segue into the next presentation on duets

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that duets themselves and this in some ways would be almost intuitive that a

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duet working together would make it easier to recall material

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than just working solo. But what is that effect?

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What is that effect of working together? What is the nature of the relationship,

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which makes that cohesion, that kind of cohesion? What, what makes that work?

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That would be the interesting question from our side.

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Can you show the next slide and just play the duet?

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So the last thing we're going to show you, it's just a bit of a duet from,

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do you have sound on that one? Cause I think they're,

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they're also speaking with Sam and Kimberly.

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<v 1>Certainly helping her remember something,</v>

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couple of reconstructions, wasn't it Kimball. There's a notion.

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<v Zoe Dunwoodie>That memory is constructive and reconstructive and you see that happening as the</v>

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dancers.

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<v 1>Try and reconstruct, reproduce the exact phrase.</v>

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<v Scott Delahunta>And that's just a little glimpse into the memory experiment we did with the</v>

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company with you guys.

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There's a paper that's going to come up where we're writing up the results.

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And I'd like now to segue into the next experiment with the locus of creativity

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with James. Thanks you guys. If we will,

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we are going to sort of move right into the next one

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in a way to sort of really turn a page and open up another kind of set of

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insights into this kind of the collaborative research that we did with the

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company.

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<v James Leach>Thank you, Scott. Hello.</v>

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so Scott finished there on something about UX and how it's

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seems easier in some ways for dancers to remember material when they've either

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made it or performed it with, with other dancers,

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Kate and I were also interested in not just how memory works and how recall

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works,

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but also actually in how things are made and what kind of difference it makes to

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make something with another person rather than solo or on your own.

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And to look a little bit into the kinds of conditions and kinds of principles,

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which might lie behind either there being a difference between making things

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with other people or imagining and making dance on your own.

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So I'm going to let Kate just talk to you a little bit about how we,

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what our questions were and how we designed an experiment around.

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<v Zoe Dunwoodie>This. So James comes from social anthropology as,</v>

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as the base discipline and I'm a cognitive psychologist and we have quite

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different methods.

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And one of the kind of our undercurrents here was to find ways that

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we could work together and perhaps augment.

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If you like the microscope on creativity,

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by using a hybrid of our combination of our two methods,

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the aim was to really look at the, the effect of interaction on creativity and,

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and obviously a duet or a trio or even a larger ensemble is one

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way to get at that. It's an another one of those things we'd call a variable.

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So the experimental design around this,

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the things that we were manipulating to try and bring these processes into

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relief or to compare a dancer improvising

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alone.

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So solo versus a pair whether when they were improvising as a

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pair,

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whether they were highly familiar with the person they were improvising with.

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So there is a tendency for certain dancers to improvise together.

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So we perturbed that by also having dancers come together and improvise who

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weren't so familiar with each other in that context.

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And then we also just manipulated the kinds of instructions we gave them,

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whether it was solely movement based or whether it was some state-based kind of

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material that they would have generate. We counted lots of things.

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We tried to quantify things like the amount of material,

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and that's hard for a psychologist to necessarily quantify.

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So we asked the dancers to self-report the number of new ideas they felt they

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were creating in each of their improvisations, the quality of material.

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They commented on that as well.

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We haven't really gotten to uniqueness or variety, but we can,

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we have miles of data and James, the social anthropology,

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the ethnographic approach was to interview and explore way,

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create creativity resides in a qualitative kind of a way. We had 10 dancers,

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they were all experts. And then I've just put the tasks there.

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So in collaboration with Libby, we,

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we asked them to do a couple of different tasks to make choreographic material

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around the idea of a cube or a sphere or a cylinder. And they had two minutes.

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So there was a series of trials where they'd come out on their own or with a

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partner and improvise according to one of those directions.

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And after each trial, very diligently, the dancers,

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self-reported the number of species they felt they had generated,

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or the number of cylinders they thought they had generated in the trial.

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And we asked them some open-ended comments as well.

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Here's an I'll leave you to work out which task Kimball might be performing

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here.

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[inaudible].

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<v 1>That's another example I do at this time,</v>

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Kyle and Sam

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[inaudible].

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<v Zoe Dunwoodie>So just as the memory experiment is,</v>

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is you saw those videos that you see memory unfolding before your eyes. It's,

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it's absolutely gold to a cognitive psychologist to see the lapsing

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and the successes in memory. The same here, we see creativity unfolding,

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very difficult to capture that in a laboratory where here situated in the

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studio of ADT. So it has an ecology about it. That is,

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is quite realistic. At least from a, an experimental point of view.

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They said the kinds of data we get out, this is a, a graph on the vertical axis.

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We're just counting the number of new movements.

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This is self-reported by the dancers.

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And you can see we're looking at that as a function of whether they did it alone

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or in a pair,

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whether the pair was a familiar or unfamiliar and the green and the yellow

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reflect the instructions that were given from a statistical point of view.

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There's not really much of a difference happening here. We're not getting,

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we're getting a few more ideas if you like in the, in the pairwise situation,

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but it's not statistically different.

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So the take home message here from the, the,

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the kind of quantitative aspect is that put two people together.

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You're not necessarily generating twice as much material,

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but what you might be generating or eliciting is qualitatively

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different material.

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And James was interested in following that up in discussions and interviews.

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So you might like to talk about that aspect of it.

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<v James Leach>Thank you. I as Kay said, I'm a social anthropologist.</v>

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I've actually done my majority of my research in a very different culture from

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our own.

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And it's a culture in which creativity is understood in a very different way how

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that we're doing creativity studies here.

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So the idea was that I would bring some of that as a perspective in thinking

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slightly differently about what's happening when people are creating material

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singly or alone,

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and how that manifested was an emphasis or a focus on relationships on what

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happens between people,

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what is possible when there are two bodies in a space that isn't possible

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possible when there's, when there's one, one body and,

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and thinking about thinking very much about what it is that

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is beyond the individual,

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if you like something that is emergent emergent in the space between people and

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trying to find a way of getting it that

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we began to think that you could almost think of the relationship itself,

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something about the social that's manifesting itself in the relationship as a

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kind of material that the dancers are working with,

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that they are playing around with all sorts of things to do with what we expect

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of other people, how we anticipate what they want, how domination occurs,

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or how cooperation occurs. And in fact,

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it it's that sensing of something that we could call social in between people

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which is providing some of that, some of what's material to them,

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to the things that they're creating.

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That's kind of interesting because it, it provides a point of,

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at PI provides an alternative point to thinking about creativity,

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which we tend to conventionally think of as something which happens in

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individual minds.

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It's something that happens within a person and in the individual mind of a

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person. And so we're sort of dealing here with a,

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with an alternative notion of creativity,

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which isn't about manipulating images somewhere that are in the back of the

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brain,

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but actually thinking about what interaction in real time with another person

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makes possible which is not made possible when you are,

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when you're just doing something singly.

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And so he actually said something very interesting about this at one point.

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So I wondered if she might just say something here for your benefit about that.

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<v 1>Thanks. So, yeah.</v>

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<v Zoe Dunwoodie>So we're discussing this yesterday.</v>

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One of the cool things that was about working with maybe someone you hadn't

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worked with before, or as much with before

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was how you guys both kind of

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negotiated the space within like together.

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And that was,

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that was a really nice discovery in that I was able to

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kind of, you know, obviously discover how this person,

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this other person is moving and either try and try and sort

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of facilitate that, or whether I was going now,

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I'm going to lead this situation and you're going to follow me sort of thing.

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So that was, that was really nice and fun, I guess.

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And the,

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the other thing was also kind of discovering whether you are someone that is a,

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is a leader in improvisation like that,

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or whether you like to just kind of go with what the other person's doing

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or whether you both just sort of bounce off each other and work

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both as a leader and a follower. Yeah, so that was really cool,

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especially working with people you didn't really, we didn't usually work with.

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Yeah.

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<v James Leach>There's something to be explored there, which isn't just about space.</v>

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And it isn't just about form,

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but it's also it's space and form in the context of relationships with other

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people which are unfolding,

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unfolding through actually being in the same space and moving.

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And that to an anthropologist is not

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completely alien from what we're all doing all the time as we are interacting

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with one another as social beings.

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So there's a certain sense that creativity is happening all the time in how we

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behave in how we unfold ourselves with other people in the world.

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And the dance studios turned into, turned out to be an extremely,

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a fascinating place to look in microcosm at the way that kind of unfolding

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happens in a very, in a very specialized and very focused environment.

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So Kate and I were able to look a little bit then about something slightly

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unusual as a study of creativity in this context,

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but there's also questions about how that and creativity unfolds

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and how it unfolds over time as a, as a process. And for that,

447
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we worked with David Kirsch who had experiments of his

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own around time course.

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And I'm going to hand over to David now so that he can present just a little bit

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of that. Thank you.

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<v 1>[Inaudible].</v>

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<v 5>Kate and I had the pleasure of working together along with the dancers,</v>

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of course

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on exploring the idea of whether creativity occurs more often

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in the first part of an activity or the middle or the later part of an activity.

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So what we're going to briefly cover the questions, we,

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the question we ask the method, the examples,

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some examples of people working it out.

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<v Scott Delahunta>How we.</v>

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<v 5>Developed a coding language, how researchers study dance,</v>

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and then there'll be a discussion of some of the ways we're thinking about the

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topic. So the basic question was,

463
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is there a time when creative,

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our creative ideas uniformly distributed over a period of 60 minutes or

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45 minutes,

466
00:28:52.670 --> 00:28:57.590
it would be valuable to know that because people often set aside 60

467
00:28:57.591 --> 00:29:00.200
minutes in dance, for instance, to work on something.

468
00:29:00.530 --> 00:29:03.830
And if the big ideas are coming out after 40 minutes or 30 minutes,

469
00:29:04.100 --> 00:29:06.890
maybe it's good to come back and do it after a break.

470
00:29:07.160 --> 00:29:10.010
So we'd like to know it's a little efficiency concern.

471
00:29:11.450 --> 00:29:14.990
And when did the best ideas come? These are always hard to determine.

472
00:29:16.190 --> 00:29:21.080
And what is the nature of ideas blending or merging or

473
00:29:21.230 --> 00:29:22.850
layering or developing.

474
00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:27.500
These are basic questions and how much individual differences there are there

475
00:29:27.501 --> 00:29:32.210
any generalizations to be found? So these are not true.

476
00:29:32.300 --> 00:29:37.220
These are just possible things that are patterns that you might find among

477
00:29:37.250 --> 00:29:41.920
single ideas. So the first one shows exploring an idea,

478
00:29:41.950 --> 00:29:44.980
but no real development, a little bit of novelty added.

479
00:29:45.250 --> 00:29:49.420
The second one up top here shows strong continuous development.

480
00:29:49.720 --> 00:29:51.850
It's not going in jumps or something.

481
00:29:52.750 --> 00:29:56.470
The third one is where you had an idea and then you drop it off.

482
00:29:56.860 --> 00:29:58.480
You reject it on the next.

483
00:29:58.481 --> 00:30:02.740
The last one is a very successful case where a new components are added or

484
00:30:02.770 --> 00:30:05.170
layering from other ideas new,

485
00:30:05.560 --> 00:30:08.530
small ideas added that's one thing or the,

486
00:30:08.620 --> 00:30:12.730
or now when you look over time more at a longer perspective

487
00:30:13.660 --> 00:30:18.190
maybe the ideas form in a step function, not likely, but maybe.

488
00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:21.910
So these are just ideas of what time course might look like.

489
00:30:21.911 --> 00:30:24.820
There might be patterns, but there may not be any patterns.

490
00:30:26.860 --> 00:30:29.470
So the method we used was to

491
00:30:32.110 --> 00:30:35.710
have Libya sign the dancers. They were tests that Gary came up with,

492
00:30:35.711 --> 00:30:39.790
but that he wanted them to form, but Libby develop them for the dancers.

493
00:30:40.420 --> 00:30:44.500
It was a choreographic task. We'll explain what some of those are in a second.

494
00:30:44.680 --> 00:30:49.600
And the goal was to make a minute of a viable phrase on the basis of that

495
00:30:49.601 --> 00:30:50.434
task.

496
00:30:50.500 --> 00:30:55.210
The dancers were videoing themselves so that they were sitting out in the

497
00:30:55.211 --> 00:30:59.020
room five or six dancers at,

498
00:30:59.021 --> 00:31:04.000
and they themselves turn the camera on and off and they talked into the camera

499
00:31:04.180 --> 00:31:05.860
so they could control things like that,

500
00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:10.650
that we broke the door durations that the dancers would be

501
00:31:10.651 --> 00:31:15.270
working on a given task into 15 minutes or 30 minutes or

502
00:31:15.271 --> 00:31:18.510
45 minutes. And in the last day,

503
00:31:18.511 --> 00:31:23.250
the way we worked that was that they would say work on a phrase for 45

504
00:31:23.251 --> 00:31:27.210
minutes at the end of 15 minutes, they would show what they had.

505
00:31:27.660 --> 00:31:31.440
So now they showed what, what have you accumulated? And then at the next,

506
00:31:31.441 --> 00:31:34.800
after another 15 minutes, so now they'd worked on it for 30 minutes. Now,

507
00:31:34.801 --> 00:31:39.570
show what you have. And then at the end of 45 minutes, now show what you have.

508
00:31:39.930 --> 00:31:41.790
So we,

509
00:31:42.060 --> 00:31:45.900
it's not a simple matter of just to count how much they have at each of the 1530

510
00:31:45.901 --> 00:31:49.620
or 45, but that would be a first piece of data to take,

511
00:31:49.621 --> 00:31:53.670
which we haven't done that because it's a little more complicated than it might

512
00:31:53.671 --> 00:31:57.420
sound. So then they would get a new problem and

513
00:31:59.190 --> 00:32:03.450
the blast one just the one second further and for a different, okay.

514
00:32:04.500 --> 00:32:07.410
I you're right then they would code their own video.

515
00:32:07.800 --> 00:32:12.360
That's a novel thing where self coding that is after the video is collected

516
00:32:12.630 --> 00:32:15.300
either later that day or in a subsequent day,

517
00:32:15.360 --> 00:32:19.350
they would review the video and tell us where they had ideas and yeah,

518
00:32:19.380 --> 00:32:20.213
what happened.

519
00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:25.470
So one thing we wanted to do was to discuss with them,

520
00:32:25.620 --> 00:32:28.680
how should they code the video? I mean,

521
00:32:28.681 --> 00:32:30.630
how do you describe what goes on?

522
00:32:30.631 --> 00:32:35.130
So we sat around and we chatted for some period of time to come up with a coding

523
00:32:35.131 --> 00:32:37.920
language, which is next slide, please.

524
00:32:37.921 --> 00:32:41.570
This is more of that design that Scott was talking about.

525
00:32:41.600 --> 00:32:44.390
This is an example of the coding vocabulary,

526
00:32:44.690 --> 00:32:49.370
where to discuss the initiation of an idea, you could use the term,

527
00:32:49.550 --> 00:32:51.830
oh, I have the germ of an idea. Now,

528
00:32:51.831 --> 00:32:56.570
a whole chunk or major variation of that idea need to change.

529
00:32:56.571 --> 00:33:00.290
And I'm bored. I'm done with that idea. Or you reject the idea or a board.

530
00:33:00.291 --> 00:33:04.760
It then there was a development of an idea that would be the germ chunk or

531
00:33:04.910 --> 00:33:09.020
variation and a variety of phrases and terms.

532
00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:12.650
We didn't find all these terms or many of these terms appearing in the,

533
00:33:12.980 --> 00:33:14.270
their actual annotations,

534
00:33:14.510 --> 00:33:17.690
but that's an opportunity then to either have them work longer,

535
00:33:17.720 --> 00:33:21.950
to develop mastery of the language or for us to adapt to what they did say.

536
00:33:23.360 --> 00:33:27.860
So here are the three tasks that were given out your body is a

537
00:33:27.861 --> 00:33:30.560
clock based on circadian rhythms,

538
00:33:30.561 --> 00:33:34.340
such as sleep or wake seasons day and night and tied.

539
00:33:34.341 --> 00:33:38.630
So we have this notion of circadian rhythms that appear in the body.

540
00:33:38.870 --> 00:33:41.540
So the think of the body as a rhythmic system,

541
00:33:42.320 --> 00:33:45.710
every cyclical system needs rest in order to continue.

542
00:33:45.950 --> 00:33:50.450
These are all ideas and suggestions that the dancers are going to use

543
00:33:51.350 --> 00:33:55.790
as stimulii to be creative in their body movements.

544
00:33:56.540 --> 00:34:01.340
This is a typical kind of choreographic task or problem set by the

545
00:34:01.341 --> 00:34:04.730
choreographer as a way of stimulating creativity.

546
00:34:05.660 --> 00:34:09.950
Another one was a representation of citizens, the life, death decay.

547
00:34:11.180 --> 00:34:15.500
And of course you talk about it when the bee presents it,

548
00:34:15.680 --> 00:34:20.570
they discuss the task in order to see what it is that they should be thinking

549
00:34:20.571 --> 00:34:24.680
about. And then they privately go off and explore it themselves with their body,

550
00:34:24.830 --> 00:34:26.870
rather than writing an essay on the topic.

551
00:34:27.590 --> 00:34:30.260
And the last one was using a pre-existing movement phrase,

552
00:34:30.710 --> 00:34:32.690
make some transformation. So for that,

553
00:34:32.720 --> 00:34:37.370
so take a preexisting phrase and then try some various ways in which you can

554
00:34:37.490 --> 00:34:39.710
introduce modifications in this way.

555
00:34:41.120 --> 00:34:43.700
So here's an example where Libby is

556
00:34:46.820 --> 00:34:51.290
explaining the task to everybody and people are noting down in their book,

557
00:34:51.320 --> 00:34:54.890
and then they ask questions. We have a physical setup like this.

558
00:34:54.891 --> 00:34:58.640
So that was distributed over a room considerably larger than this with cameras

559
00:34:58.641 --> 00:35:03.590
in the six places here is one. And now the next case, please.

560
00:35:03.980 --> 00:35:07.880
So here was task a as an example for you to see what was going on,

561
00:35:08.060 --> 00:35:11.540
the body has a clock. So here was

562
00:35:13.040 --> 00:35:16.340
Sam. Yes. Doing her first idea germ,

563
00:35:16.341 --> 00:35:21.320
the very first thing she did let's let's start it. It's going, that's going,

564
00:35:22.040 --> 00:35:23.570
she was very slow that day.

565
00:35:24.950 --> 00:35:29.150
So you can see that try it. Yeah.

566
00:35:29.810 --> 00:35:32.810
Okay. So, you know, this is really a germ.

567
00:35:33.380 --> 00:35:36.650
You're not going to perform this unless it's a different kind of performance,

568
00:35:36.950 --> 00:35:41.640
a very peaceful performance, perhaps. So she says after 45 seconds,

569
00:35:41.641 --> 00:35:44.340
I'm thinking about idea. Then after a minute,

570
00:35:44.490 --> 00:35:47.520
I thought of something else that continuous nature of a clock,

571
00:35:47.521 --> 00:35:50.160
that would be the next. So let's go to the next slide, please.

572
00:35:52.470 --> 00:35:56.430
Okay. So now she's in the continuous nature of a cloth,

573
00:35:56.460 --> 00:35:58.740
repetitive movements for a group of dancers.

574
00:35:59.040 --> 00:36:02.100
So this she's doing soon after that first one,

575
00:36:02.460 --> 00:36:06.000
and then not shown here, but then she goes on and she says,

576
00:36:06.001 --> 00:36:09.330
I blended the two ideas. And then she discusses what she's doing.

577
00:36:09.540 --> 00:36:14.070
Then at five 30, she's introducing a new idea. And then she abandoned the idea,

578
00:36:15.390 --> 00:36:15.631
okay.

579
00:36:15.631 --> 00:36:20.550
So this is the kind of descriptive account we have and here

580
00:36:20.610 --> 00:36:21.443
you have to hit it.

581
00:36:23.460 --> 00:36:26.700
So this is what she showed after 45 minutes,

582
00:36:27.060 --> 00:36:29.790
the first half when it loads up.

583
00:36:31.740 --> 00:36:35.100
So it's a, it's a, it's a slight mix,

584
00:36:35.490 --> 00:36:39.030
but this is coming out from maybe her second idea. And then with some,

585
00:36:39.031 --> 00:36:40.680
a launch and she worked that one out.

586
00:36:40.681 --> 00:36:44.700
She didn't seem to blend a whole lot of ideas together. That was the final one.

587
00:36:45.330 --> 00:36:49.590
So this is what her account looks. Oh, this is always account. Excuse me.

588
00:36:49.830 --> 00:36:54.450
This was always a description. How she introduced her ideas.

589
00:36:54.480 --> 00:36:56.670
Just to give you an idea of what the coding looked like,

590
00:36:56.700 --> 00:37:01.440
that the dentist produced. Next, please. Then here's an example.

591
00:37:01.620 --> 00:37:05.280
All of Thomas's Thomas chose a more discursive side style,

592
00:37:05.430 --> 00:37:07.410
but he's using idea one initiation.

593
00:37:07.650 --> 00:37:12.090
And we would go through these now looking specifically for the particular terms

594
00:37:12.091 --> 00:37:17.070
that they used to see if those might not be better, more congenial coding terms.

595
00:37:18.540 --> 00:37:20.400
Now when we study it,

596
00:37:20.490 --> 00:37:24.840
we take the code that they've written and we put it into an

597
00:37:24.841 --> 00:37:28.320
application like this. This one is called peacemaker,

598
00:37:28.530 --> 00:37:30.360
that Scott was involved in developing,

599
00:37:30.660 --> 00:37:35.040
and it allows us to click on the various areas,

600
00:37:35.041 --> 00:37:35.874
regions here.

601
00:37:35.940 --> 00:37:40.590
And it jumps to that part of the video that makes it easier for us to

602
00:37:40.591 --> 00:37:44.910
analyze it and begin to put things on to time and discuss things,

603
00:37:45.150 --> 00:37:48.120
write up things we can move on. I think.

604
00:37:48.780 --> 00:37:52.800
So you would like to see some findings. And so would we,

605
00:37:52.980 --> 00:37:57.570
but we're just in the process of collating that when you have it like this,

606
00:37:57.571 --> 00:38:00.690
it's nice to have the text that really saves us a lot of work,

607
00:38:00.691 --> 00:38:04.170
but there's still a massive amount of video to be looked at and to work things

608
00:38:04.171 --> 00:38:06.270
out. We're just in the process of that.

609
00:38:06.300 --> 00:38:08.850
And Kate and I are very excited by that possibility,

610
00:38:09.180 --> 00:38:12.510
but there are a few why don't you come up here and we'll have a little chat.

611
00:38:12.540 --> 00:38:14.610
Okay, well well,

612
00:38:14.640 --> 00:38:18.990
there are a few things that we thought are with thinking about in a more general

613
00:38:18.991 --> 00:38:21.660
manner about this topic.

614
00:38:22.170 --> 00:38:25.320
<v 1>So one thing is.</v>

615
00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:28.170
<v 5>Creative.</v>

616
00:38:28.170 --> 00:38:32.640
Indian dance might be different than creativity in other areas.

617
00:38:32.970 --> 00:38:37.960
And one reason you might say that is because if you

618
00:38:37.961 --> 00:38:42.550
look closely at how people create, say,

619
00:38:42.670 --> 00:38:43.720
you're a designer,

620
00:38:45.120 --> 00:38:49.320
you want to create your first lamp or your first chair,

621
00:38:50.100 --> 00:38:54.120
what do you do? You look at hundreds of layers. Yeah.

622
00:38:55.890 --> 00:39:00.840
Thousands of chairs. You try to explore the design space.

623
00:39:01.560 --> 00:39:06.270
So you have the opportunity of interacting with resources

624
00:39:06.510 --> 00:39:11.250
that are indexed and retrievable can be put side by

625
00:39:11.251 --> 00:39:13.080
side. At the same time.

626
00:39:15.180 --> 00:39:20.030
When you look at someone create, say in language,

627
00:39:20.900 --> 00:39:24.500
you're writing, you write some ideas down, you have notes,

628
00:39:24.650 --> 00:39:27.350
you can organize them, bring them back, reread them.

629
00:39:27.620 --> 00:39:32.330
It's not like that for them. They depend when they're doing it, solo creation,

630
00:39:32.600 --> 00:39:37.280
they depend on their own recall or their own memory or their own thoughts

631
00:39:37.281 --> 00:39:38.114
about things.

632
00:39:38.570 --> 00:39:42.860
So you don't have that kind of interactivity with external resources.

633
00:39:43.460 --> 00:39:48.320
What you have is a stimulus. That's supposed to prompt creative ideas,

634
00:39:48.980 --> 00:39:51.740
but you can't compare them with things you can't say,

635
00:39:51.920 --> 00:39:56.810
show me 25 ways in which I could make that turn. So that's,

636
00:39:56.820 --> 00:40:01.580
that's a little different because the modern orientation is to

637
00:40:01.581 --> 00:40:06.470
see creativity along with many other cognitive processes to be on an

638
00:40:06.530 --> 00:40:08.810
aspect of extended mind,

639
00:40:09.590 --> 00:40:12.740
where we're closely coupled to the outside world.

640
00:40:12.920 --> 00:40:16.400
And we lean on the outside world in an important way,

641
00:40:16.401 --> 00:40:20.240
just as James was describing the interaction of two people,

642
00:40:21.020 --> 00:40:24.410
they create a space that didn't exist without two people.

643
00:40:25.340 --> 00:40:30.170
There are entities now created by co constitution between the

644
00:40:30.171 --> 00:40:34.130
two people that make it possible to interact in ways you couldn't interact by

645
00:40:34.131 --> 00:40:34.964
yourself.

646
00:40:35.450 --> 00:40:39.860
So we think interaction is fundamental to a lot of cognition

647
00:40:40.490 --> 00:40:44.840
and maybe dance could help people be more creative in other fields.

648
00:40:45.711 --> 00:40:48.980
One area that we're going to open this up.

649
00:40:49.110 --> 00:40:52.640
And so maybe you'll manage that.

650
00:40:53.030 --> 00:40:57.260
The one project that I have been involved with elsewhere

651
00:40:57.830 --> 00:41:02.150
is on understanding how arts based

652
00:41:02.300 --> 00:41:07.010
activity can enhance the classic innovation process

653
00:41:07.850 --> 00:41:12.080
that people do in companies or in various activities,

654
00:41:12.081 --> 00:41:13.400
design many areas.

655
00:41:14.090 --> 00:41:19.070
And the study consists in comparing people who have a 60

656
00:41:19.071 --> 00:41:23.300
minute activity that might involve sculpture or dance and movement

657
00:41:23.630 --> 00:41:25.400
or drama.

658
00:41:26.810 --> 00:41:30.890
And so they do this little drama thing and the other people are doing the

659
00:41:30.891 --> 00:41:33.650
classic form of that.

660
00:41:33.651 --> 00:41:38.240
They tell you for brainstorming and the results are quite significant

661
00:41:38.510 --> 00:41:42.470
that when you add arts to a classic

662
00:41:43.070 --> 00:41:47.960
innovation process, say a four hour workshop, you get better results.

663
00:41:49.370 --> 00:41:53.900
So the study of arts and how arts can facilitate creativity

664
00:41:55.430 --> 00:41:59.060
or improve the social interaction between people.

665
00:41:59.570 --> 00:42:01.520
So one important difference is that for instance,

666
00:42:01.521 --> 00:42:06.380
at the very beginning in a classic innovation process, you talk,

667
00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:09.110
people go round and they introduce themselves,

668
00:42:09.410 --> 00:42:13.100
and now they give their bone a few days and their background.

669
00:42:13.100 --> 00:42:15.020
And you suddenly say, well,

670
00:42:15.110 --> 00:42:19.310
I see that's somebody I should really respect. Or, and,

671
00:42:19.350 --> 00:42:22.130
and now you've may not interact with that person the way you would.

672
00:42:22.460 --> 00:42:26.990
It had you played together or had to work with clay

673
00:42:26.991 --> 00:42:29.390
together rather than introducing yourselves.

674
00:42:29.750 --> 00:42:34.130
So you create a different social space in which to interact.

675
00:42:34.580 --> 00:42:37.610
And that might be one of the facilitating reasons. Anyway,

676
00:42:37.910 --> 00:42:41.630
that's just to say that dance could help people be more creative in other fields

677
00:42:41.660 --> 00:42:42.950
it's being explored.

678
00:42:43.250 --> 00:42:48.050
And we think that what we're studying now about creativity and its time course

679
00:42:48.320 --> 00:42:51.980
could also have broad application. If there are any generalizations to be found,

680
00:42:52.010 --> 00:42:53.180
which there may not be.

681
00:42:53.180 --> 00:42:56.380
<v 1>I don't know, that'd be great point to have a discussion,</v>

682
00:42:56.381 --> 00:43:00.410
I think can open the floor to questions. Scott, do

683
00:43:01.990 --> 00:43:04.420
you want to come back? Do you want to come back up? Yeah.

684
00:43:05.440 --> 00:43:10.390
<v Scott Delahunta>This last point about the the process from the dancer's point of view,</v>

685
00:43:10.391 --> 00:43:13.180
this one experiment seem to,

686
00:43:13.270 --> 00:43:18.220
because of the provided you an opportunity to really sort

687
00:43:18.221 --> 00:43:19.570
of explore your creative process,

688
00:43:19.571 --> 00:43:22.960
that the other two experiments didn't didn't do in the same way.

689
00:43:23.020 --> 00:43:26.170
So the memory experiment was any way different looking at memory locus.

690
00:43:26.171 --> 00:43:28.920
So creativity was a little bit different in how it looked at creativity

691
00:43:28.970 --> 00:43:29.560
different,

692
00:43:29.560 --> 00:43:33.490
but this looks specifically your ways of working in your own ways of tasking and

693
00:43:33.640 --> 00:43:36.070
kind of in a way, forced an analytic frame,

694
00:43:36.460 --> 00:43:38.860
but a frame that was derived from a conversation.

695
00:43:38.861 --> 00:43:41.500
So the coding corresponded to your ways of working.

696
00:43:42.220 --> 00:43:45.730
And I know that in the conversations afterwards that you said this was one

697
00:43:45.731 --> 00:43:50.620
experiment that you could see folding somehow back into practice if you

698
00:43:50.621 --> 00:43:53.920
did it regularly as done just as a one-off,

699
00:43:54.070 --> 00:43:55.750
it doesn't really function to shift practice,

700
00:43:55.751 --> 00:43:59.770
but it's the kind of the kind of idea that could come from a sort of science

701
00:43:59.771 --> 00:44:01.510
methodology of a bit more rigorous,

702
00:44:01.511 --> 00:44:06.160
a bit more systematically exploring something could enhance your own processes

703
00:44:06.250 --> 00:44:07.083
of something you shared.

704
00:44:07.150 --> 00:44:10.570
So I was just sort of closed that we might speak to that a bit,

705
00:44:10.571 --> 00:44:14.590
but we should open up, I think for, for people to, we have the mic in the back,

706
00:44:14.591 --> 00:44:15.424
but we always have a mic.

707
00:44:16.390 --> 00:44:20.890
So I would be very happy to share this one closer to the front for people who

708
00:44:21.220 --> 00:44:22.150
don't want to move from.

709
00:44:22.690 --> 00:44:25.810
I think we're supposed to use the mix very much because of the recording.

710
00:44:26.920 --> 00:44:30.040
And so, but I'm very happy to walk someplace with this one.

711
00:44:35.670 --> 00:44:38.430
<v 1>Good to see you. Thanks. Thanks Scott.</v>

712
00:44:41.160 --> 00:44:41.490
Something.

713
00:44:41.490 --> 00:44:43.860
<v James Leach>That was coming up there all the time for me was the</v>

714
00:44:45.540 --> 00:44:50.070
parameter of time. And obviously when you're doing

715
00:44:51.630 --> 00:44:56.460
research time as a resource and it's often a restricted resource but I

716
00:44:56.461 --> 00:45:00.780
think time's very important in creative practice. And as a practitioner,

717
00:45:00.810 --> 00:45:05.070
I know how important time is to me. I'm not a dancer,

718
00:45:05.071 --> 00:45:09.930
but I work closely with dancers all the time and collaborate with them.

719
00:45:09.931 --> 00:45:13.710
So I, I S I experienced creativity across these modalities.

720
00:45:17.010 --> 00:45:21.720
David's comments about extended mind in relation to James'

721
00:45:21.721 --> 00:45:25.050
work, connects to that. Cause for the artists,

722
00:45:25.060 --> 00:45:30.030
time is really the medium

723
00:45:30.120 --> 00:45:33.090
in which they engage in,

724
00:45:33.091 --> 00:45:37.380
what is primarily a hermeneutic process of interpretation and

725
00:45:37.381 --> 00:45:40.050
re-interpretation and scription and re inscription

726
00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:42.810
doing stuff.

727
00:45:42.810 --> 00:45:45.960
And then thinking about what they've done and reconsidering it and doing it a

728
00:45:45.961 --> 00:45:50.520
different way and all the time waiting for the penny to drop.

729
00:45:51.930 --> 00:45:55.440
And more often than not the timeframe for that. And I've found this in my area,

730
00:45:55.450 --> 00:45:56.820
visual arts, but also in dance.

731
00:45:57.270 --> 00:46:01.500
The timeframe for that penny dropping is not minutes or hours

732
00:46:02.340 --> 00:46:05.580
might be second sometimes, but it's not usually minutes or hours.

733
00:46:05.581 --> 00:46:09.540
It's usually days or weeks or even months

734
00:46:10.920 --> 00:46:12.630
coming back reconsidering.

735
00:46:13.320 --> 00:46:16.800
And there is a kind of extended mind and it's the mind extended in time

736
00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:19.860
and through the,

737
00:46:21.750 --> 00:46:25.680
the means by which things are remembered and re articulated,

738
00:46:25.860 --> 00:46:28.650
which I guess is a kind of linguistic activity,

739
00:46:28.651 --> 00:46:33.450
but I don't mean linguistic has in language of English or German or, or coding.

740
00:46:34.380 --> 00:46:36.690
It's something else. So I,

741
00:46:37.290 --> 00:46:40.200
I guess my question is how do you,

742
00:46:40.201 --> 00:46:45.060
as researchers in the framework in which you're doing your research deal

743
00:46:45.061 --> 00:46:49.650
with these very different temporal

744
00:46:51.930 --> 00:46:53.260
modalities? Yeah.

745
00:46:56.450 --> 00:47:00.620
<v Zoe Dunwoodie>I think one of the interesting things that came to light yesterday from meeting</v>

746
00:47:00.621 --> 00:47:01.430
again with the,

747
00:47:01.430 --> 00:47:06.200
with the company was reviewing some of the time course creativity

748
00:47:06.440 --> 00:47:10.910
material that we had and discovering that some of that

749
00:47:12.950 --> 00:47:17.510
beautiful material that we saw in the experiment was picked up and

750
00:47:17.511 --> 00:47:21.200
used and developed, and then made its way into nature.

751
00:47:21.830 --> 00:47:26.630
So one of the benefits of this kind of project is that it's longer

752
00:47:27.170 --> 00:47:31.480
toodle in a way, and it's it's, we can actually leave we,

753
00:47:31.481 --> 00:47:35.320
if we have the time go back and trace those kinds of things.

754
00:47:35.620 --> 00:47:40.600
The other wonderful thing that for the cognitive psychology side of

755
00:47:40.601 --> 00:47:45.580
things was that the company has a remarkable resource of its works over

756
00:47:45.581 --> 00:47:46.630
many years.

757
00:47:46.690 --> 00:47:51.640
And so there is an evolution of ideas and development of ideas

758
00:47:51.641 --> 00:47:55.420
that's captured in that, in that digital archive. And of course,

759
00:47:55.421 --> 00:47:59.530
we've got Gary and Elizabeth that we can speak with about those aspects.

760
00:47:59.531 --> 00:48:01.030
So it is there, we probably,

761
00:48:01.060 --> 00:48:03.790
probably don't always plumb the depths of it as much as we could,

762
00:48:04.030 --> 00:48:06.670
but it's captured in the documentation that happened.

763
00:48:07.900 --> 00:48:10.940
And we try and manipulate time, I guess, as we can.

764
00:48:11.080 --> 00:48:13.270
And to the extent we can and experiment.

765
00:48:15.060 --> 00:48:16.680
<v 5>And the concept of efficiency,</v>

766
00:48:17.100 --> 00:48:21.300
doesn't have to be at odds with the concept of just station.

767
00:48:21.810 --> 00:48:23.790
So efficiency,

768
00:48:24.240 --> 00:48:28.620
you go to your first time management class and they tell you break down the

769
00:48:28.621 --> 00:48:30.960
tasks into small manageable ones,

770
00:48:31.290 --> 00:48:35.730
even the activity of breaking down the tasks so that they're small and

771
00:48:35.731 --> 00:48:40.590
manageable is salutary. It's a good thing to do.

772
00:48:41.010 --> 00:48:43.830
It could be that your best ideas come out early,

773
00:48:44.490 --> 00:48:47.880
and then you should break. When should you take your breaks?

774
00:48:48.030 --> 00:48:51.060
It's not meant to be hard and fast or principle-based, or,

775
00:48:51.360 --> 00:48:53.550
but it's an interesting thing to study.

776
00:48:56.460 --> 00:48:59.850
<v 1>There's a question down the back. I don't have my glasses on Scott.</v>

777
00:48:59.851 --> 00:49:00.810
You're going to run out.

778
00:49:03.030 --> 00:49:07.530
<v Zoe Dunwoodie>I'm just interested in knowing what creativity is</v>

779
00:49:07.860 --> 00:49:12.480
in dance and how do you actually measure that cognitively.

780
00:49:24.840 --> 00:49:27.210
<v 1>Gary, Gary.</v>

781
00:49:29.310 --> 00:49:30.630
<v Scott Delahunta>Gary, would you like to answer them?</v>

782
00:49:35.340 --> 00:49:37.410
Okay. Then one here and then back in the back,

783
00:49:37.420 --> 00:49:38.610
we might have to use that mic though.

784
00:49:40.470 --> 00:49:42.150
<v Zoe Dunwoodie>All right. I'll answer the beginning of that question,</v>

785
00:49:42.300 --> 00:49:46.710
which is what creativity is in dance. We haven't some,

786
00:49:48.180 --> 00:49:51.870
sometimes I like to describe creativity as intelligence at play,

787
00:49:51.871 --> 00:49:56.010
and I know that you can obviously apply that

788
00:49:57.060 --> 00:50:01.860
Quip to any form of creativity, but I suppose, as a dancer,

789
00:50:01.861 --> 00:50:06.750
being creative with your body is to take all of the skill

790
00:50:06.751 --> 00:50:11.640
that you have and to respond to a

791
00:50:11.641 --> 00:50:16.380
set of tasks that you may be given by your director or choreographer.

792
00:50:16.860 --> 00:50:21.120
So a dancer is a whole lot more than it's a thinking,

793
00:50:21.121 --> 00:50:24.000
responding being, we're not just violins with legs.

794
00:50:25.290 --> 00:50:28.850
Dancers are creative in, they can generate material,

795
00:50:28.970 --> 00:50:31.790
but they're also creative in the performance space.

796
00:50:32.030 --> 00:50:35.780
So when a dancer is on stage, they are creating or bringing to life,

797
00:50:35.781 --> 00:50:40.490
breathing life into a piece of choreography by making many,

798
00:50:40.491 --> 00:50:40.911
many,

799
00:50:40.911 --> 00:50:45.800
many split second decisions about how they present what

800
00:50:45.801 --> 00:50:48.590
has been created with their input on them.

801
00:50:48.770 --> 00:50:53.540
So they bring a multitude of skills and

802
00:50:53.720 --> 00:50:58.640
personal nuances to performance and dance is a performance arts after

803
00:50:58.641 --> 00:50:59.180
all.

804
00:50:59.180 --> 00:51:03.830
So that is in a nutshell what creativity is in

805
00:51:03.831 --> 00:51:08.210
dance, how one measures that I will hand over to a scientist,

806
00:51:09.910 --> 00:51:10.300
we.

807
00:51:10.300 --> 00:51:15.160
<v 5>Finessed that problem by not trying to measure the actual</v>

808
00:51:15.400 --> 00:51:19.150
quality of the act, just of the ideas, just the

809
00:51:22.900 --> 00:51:26.170
self recognition that it's one I haven't haven't done before.

810
00:51:27.400 --> 00:51:30.520
So we're just counting. I mean, what the really good ones are

811
00:51:32.200 --> 00:51:33.033
hard to know.

812
00:51:35.890 --> 00:51:40.660
<v 6>W we tend to focus on the conscious mind and the greater decisions at that mix.</v>

813
00:51:40.910 --> 00:51:44.680
The nervous system goes far beyond the mind goes throughout the whole whole

814
00:51:44.681 --> 00:51:49.420
body. And even the mind, mind itself is in various parts of the creative part,

815
00:51:49.480 --> 00:51:52.990
the motion part, the sensory part, et cetera,

816
00:51:53.170 --> 00:51:55.840
and then not necessarily connected.

817
00:51:56.110 --> 00:52:00.250
So each of those parts can make us at Microsoft decision outside of the

818
00:52:00.251 --> 00:52:01.150
conscious mind.

819
00:52:02.020 --> 00:52:06.010
And similar thing happens if you type in your knee kicks out,

820
00:52:06.220 --> 00:52:09.280
but there's no connection back to the conscious mind for that.

821
00:52:10.030 --> 00:52:14.830
And a pianist will apply, but there's no connection between the fingers.

822
00:52:15.280 --> 00:52:18.880
There's no messages back and forth between the fingers and the Brian.

823
00:52:19.060 --> 00:52:23.500
Most of the time they're, they're operating basically out, out of habit.

824
00:52:24.010 --> 00:52:27.160
So a predetermined program.

825
00:52:27.460 --> 00:52:29.020
So just suggest that the,

826
00:52:29.230 --> 00:52:33.360
we need to look much further than the conscious mind in, in,

827
00:52:33.420 --> 00:52:34.630
in creativity.

828
00:52:37.120 --> 00:52:39.400
<v Zoe Dunwoodie>I think that was the kind of assumption under the, you know,</v>

829
00:52:39.401 --> 00:52:41.440
what's the difference between dance and running.

830
00:52:41.770 --> 00:52:45.160
And even in some of the interviews we've had with the dancers,

831
00:52:45.190 --> 00:52:49.690
there's a sense that what they're doing is intuitive. And as a psychologist,

832
00:52:49.691 --> 00:52:52.600
I'm trying to reverse engineer some of that because you're right,

833
00:52:52.601 --> 00:52:55.180
it's become habitual, it's become automatic,

834
00:52:55.360 --> 00:52:57.550
it's become implicit or unconscious.

835
00:52:57.820 --> 00:53:01.570
And then the challenge is to try and reverse engineer that,

836
00:53:01.571 --> 00:53:05.620
to try and find circumstances, to get back to how it's gotten to that point,

837
00:53:05.650 --> 00:53:06.940
because clearly there's been a,

838
00:53:07.020 --> 00:53:11.770
a learning process for it to become habitual or automatic, but you're right,

839
00:53:11.771 --> 00:53:15.760
of course it's a very precise and rapid system that is,

840
00:53:15.780 --> 00:53:18.700
is extremely efficient from a cognitive point of view.

841
00:53:19.090 --> 00:53:21.550
There's not so much consciousness once it's at that level. Well.

842
00:53:22.550 --> 00:53:27.210
<v 6>The muscles themselves learn Tunis muscles learn a</v>

843
00:53:27.211 --> 00:53:29.700
particular process. That's independent of the mind.

844
00:53:31.200 --> 00:53:32.850
<v 5>Well, the notion of mind,</v>

845
00:53:35.490 --> 00:53:40.200
not so easy there are from a philosophical point of view,

846
00:53:40.201 --> 00:53:44.520
people have looked at many different conceptions of what the mind might be

847
00:53:45.540 --> 00:53:48.090
without going into that. The,

848
00:53:48.270 --> 00:53:52.590
I think one of the points you made that bears repeating

849
00:53:53.040 --> 00:53:57.600
is that people are quite interested now in understanding how

850
00:53:57.601 --> 00:54:01.290
thinking can take place inside the census.

851
00:54:01.770 --> 00:54:06.480
So the heritage from the Greek or Roman tradition

852
00:54:06.720 --> 00:54:10.410
is that thought looks a lot like words in the head,

853
00:54:11.340 --> 00:54:16.140
but there's no reason to suggest that the only kind of thinking looks

854
00:54:16.141 --> 00:54:19.110
like words in the head, or sounds like words in the head,

855
00:54:19.140 --> 00:54:24.120
which are just auditory images, just like verbal image. I mean,

856
00:54:24.121 --> 00:54:26.190
just very misleading. Yeah.

857
00:54:26.420 --> 00:54:30.600
So to think of them like that would be to get,

858
00:54:30.601 --> 00:54:34.830
not give fair weight to when somebody is creative,

859
00:54:34.860 --> 00:54:36.510
visually or creative,

860
00:54:36.780 --> 00:54:40.470
can it kinetically or creative sonically in,

861
00:54:40.471 --> 00:54:42.480
in musical things? The,

862
00:54:42.540 --> 00:54:46.920
the push toward the extended mind is to say that when you put an

863
00:54:46.921 --> 00:54:48.420
instrument in the hand,

864
00:54:48.750 --> 00:54:53.040
say a violin under the neck and a bow in the hand,

865
00:54:53.370 --> 00:54:56.430
the mind because of its close causal,

866
00:54:56.460 --> 00:54:58.650
coupling to the instrument,

867
00:54:59.670 --> 00:55:04.260
begins to absorb the properties of the instrument and the way it works

868
00:55:04.560 --> 00:55:09.240
and jointly the two things produce something that depends in

869
00:55:09.241 --> 00:55:12.450
part on the way the instrument behaves.

870
00:55:12.690 --> 00:55:16.920
If you change the instrument in some way, you get different musical products.

871
00:55:17.370 --> 00:55:18.203
So

872
00:55:19.590 --> 00:55:24.330
your concern with taking it outside of what's called the center and

873
00:55:24.331 --> 00:55:28.110
pushing it more toward the periphery or to the sensory systems, and then out,

874
00:55:28.140 --> 00:55:30.300
even further, that's very current.

875
00:55:31.160 --> 00:55:35.240
<v 7>Yeah. Thank you for a very good discussion and very informative.</v>

876
00:55:36.080 --> 00:55:38.690
I'm a bit naughty or saying that we can't back this up.

877
00:55:38.691 --> 00:55:43.610
That I think we do think with the whole of our bodies. In fact,

878
00:55:43.611 --> 00:55:48.040
there are neurons throughout the whole system and movement enhances this and art

879
00:55:48.041 --> 00:55:52.730
and hunches as well. And if I can trespass a little bit,

880
00:55:53.060 --> 00:55:57.170
I'm been involved with early education, I'm now retired,

881
00:55:57.770 --> 00:56:00.350
but this word play comes up so often.

882
00:56:01.160 --> 00:56:03.440
And I know in my teaching experience,

883
00:56:03.441 --> 00:56:08.360
I tried as much as I could to transfer what I taught in

884
00:56:08.361 --> 00:56:10.610
science and mathematics and grammar,

885
00:56:10.611 --> 00:56:14.990
whatever into drama and to dance and anything

886
00:56:14.991 --> 00:56:17.090
artistic, but dance has particularly good.

887
00:56:17.091 --> 00:56:21.050
Any movement helps to consolidate memory,

888
00:56:21.051 --> 00:56:23.410
but also bring in an imaginative life.

889
00:56:24.610 --> 00:56:28.960
And I'm wondering if there's any cross reference with your research into what

890
00:56:28.961 --> 00:56:31.810
happens all the research here too,

891
00:56:32.380 --> 00:56:35.950
with cooperative interactive play with children,

892
00:56:36.850 --> 00:56:40.930
because I'm not, it's not on your topic directly, but I think there are,

893
00:56:41.260 --> 00:56:44.290
I have a lips and if I can put in a plug,

894
00:56:44.320 --> 00:56:49.150
I would hope in the sign world that we would keep many of the academics

895
00:56:49.151 --> 00:56:52.330
back from children, formal precious,

896
00:56:52.331 --> 00:56:57.220
and let them just play in groups in semi semi-supervised

897
00:56:57.250 --> 00:57:00.550
way with good materials, dance,

898
00:57:00.970 --> 00:57:05.500
a drama just missing with water and mud would

899
00:57:05.650 --> 00:57:09.370
enhance academics, social health,

900
00:57:09.730 --> 00:57:13.570
creativity, a whole range of things. I think we've missed out,

901
00:57:14.020 --> 00:57:16.420
but it's a bit off the track, but you might want to comment.

902
00:57:18.990 --> 00:57:21.870
<v Zoe Dunwoodie>I think it's perfectly on track. I don't know that I need to comment.</v>

903
00:57:21.900 --> 00:57:26.700
Thank you for the connection with that. Someone mentioned play,

904
00:57:26.760 --> 00:57:31.140
and I think you said fun, Zoe. I think it happens in science as well.

905
00:57:31.170 --> 00:57:36.060
It's discovery, it's creativity. Brainstorming is freewheeling.

906
00:57:36.090 --> 00:57:39.840
It's fun. It's all of those conditions that give rise to,

907
00:57:40.020 --> 00:57:44.400
you know imagination and, and new new ideas.

908
00:57:45.720 --> 00:57:48.570
It's very much connected with play, I would imagine.

909
00:57:50.370 --> 00:57:53.970
And yeah, so I, I think you've captured it. I don't know that I need.

910
00:57:53.970 --> 00:57:54.803
<v 5>To say anymore.</v>

911
00:57:55.380 --> 00:57:59.910
There's two things that can compliment that one is that in

912
00:57:59.911 --> 00:58:01.980
many creative contexts,

913
00:58:02.250 --> 00:58:06.720
people work hard to populate the environment with

914
00:58:06.750 --> 00:58:09.270
helpful resources that you could play with.

915
00:58:09.540 --> 00:58:11.820
So in some design spaces,

916
00:58:12.090 --> 00:58:16.700
there's something called a materials cart or an ideas cart and, or,

917
00:58:16.770 --> 00:58:21.450
or a closet, an idea closet. And if you go in that closet, you open it up,

918
00:58:21.480 --> 00:58:26.100
it's filled with textures and it's filled with really cool little

919
00:58:26.101 --> 00:58:30.210
gizmos and all sorts of things that are utterly

920
00:58:30.211 --> 00:58:34.500
unconnected in any apparent way with the problem you're working on.

921
00:58:34.830 --> 00:58:37.230
But there's so much fun. They're stimulating

922
00:58:39.090 --> 00:58:44.040
like that, but different is the idea that random input

923
00:58:44.580 --> 00:58:49.530
can be facilitative in the production of creative ideas.

924
00:58:50.160 --> 00:58:53.370
So in algorithm design,

925
00:58:53.400 --> 00:58:58.260
it is shocking to think that some algorithms are more efficient and

926
00:58:58.261 --> 00:59:02.220
can find a solution when they have a random component,

927
00:59:02.520 --> 00:59:06.030
then provably then with purely

928
00:59:07.560 --> 00:59:08.430
step-by-step components,

929
00:59:08.550 --> 00:59:11.280
which someone has the thought would be ultimately the best.

930
00:59:12.000 --> 00:59:16.890
So you can prove that some solutions are find-able when you introduce a random

931
00:59:16.891 --> 00:59:18.990
component. Now,

932
00:59:19.020 --> 00:59:23.930
randomness is not an easy notion and we

933
00:59:23.960 --> 00:59:26.660
rarely have true randomness. We have pseudo randomness,

934
00:59:26.870 --> 00:59:31.850
but finding the right time and the right way to introduce randomness into

935
00:59:31.851 --> 00:59:35.480
what you're working on often proves to be a trigger.

936
00:59:35.930 --> 00:59:39.800
So I think all of us are fortunate enough to always play

937
00:59:40.760 --> 00:59:42.860
we're playing with everything, including words.

938
00:59:43.310 --> 00:59:45.680
So I think the resources are everywhere.

939
00:59:45.710 --> 00:59:49.040
And if you populate the environment with the right resources,

940
00:59:49.220 --> 00:59:51.170
your play is even more productive.

941
00:59:52.960 --> 00:59:57.160
<v Scott Delahunta>Thank you, David. I think we have run out of time in this session.</v>

942
00:59:57.250 --> 01:00:00.850
It's a one hour session and we've been asked to keep it very, but I think we're,

943
01:00:00.880 --> 01:00:04.750
we're here. What's the transition time to the next spaces, 15 minutes or 20.

944
01:00:07.060 --> 01:00:10.960
So we're here. If those burning burning ideas, please just come and see us,

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01:00:10.961 --> 01:00:14.170
but thank you very, very much for your attention and for attending the session.

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01:00:19.720 --> 01:00:19.720
[inaudible].