WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.860 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to this first session of the inaugural Adelaide Festival of Ideas. 2 00:00:06.960 --> 00:00:11.820 I'm Morag Fraser, and it's my very great pleasure to welcome our three distinguished speakers, 3 00:00:12.460 --> 00:00:15.800 Dr. Hanan Ashrawi, Dr. Paul Collins, Gerard Henderson, 4 00:00:15.980 --> 00:00:22.520 and to welcome you to this wonderful occasion in, I think, seeing I was born here, I can say, 5 00:00:23.200 --> 00:00:28.760 the sort of thing that you would expect that Adelaide would do the first time in Australia for an occasion like this. 6 00:00:28.760 --> 00:00:30.800 Just let me tell you what we're going to do. 7 00:00:30.900 --> 00:00:35.780 We're going to have a brief talk from each of our speakers sitting here. 8 00:00:35.940 --> 00:00:41.440 We'll start with Paul Collins, and then Hanan Ashrawi, and then Gerard Henderson. 9 00:00:41.860 --> 00:00:47.080 Then we'll open it to the floor, seeing there are so many of you here, I think, 10 00:00:47.180 --> 00:00:53.080 and if our three speakers want to participate in that general discussion, then we'll work it like that. 11 00:00:53.220 --> 00:00:55.980 And we'll finish in about an hour's time. 12 00:00:56.500 --> 00:00:58.440 Our topic this morning is, 13 00:00:58.760 --> 00:01:02.060 Just War or A Just War. 14 00:01:02.800 --> 00:01:06.960 We'll be looking at the theory, or such as it's been, of war. 15 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:10.180 War as we presently experience it, unfortunately. 16 00:01:11.860 --> 00:01:15.800 And war as our three speakers know it firsthand. 17 00:01:17.160 --> 00:01:23.560 A Jesuit mate of mine said to me once that he thinks that war was invented 18 00:01:23.560 --> 00:01:27.100 to allow us to do something with that terrible thing, death. 19 00:01:28.060 --> 00:01:28.740 So, I'm going to start with that. 20 00:01:28.760 --> 00:01:29.760 So, we might think about that. 21 00:01:30.360 --> 00:01:32.920 Without any ado, let me introduce our speakers. 22 00:01:33.280 --> 00:01:35.300 Our first speaker is Paul Collins. 23 00:01:35.980 --> 00:01:42.060 I think probably best known to us as a broadcaster, an ABC broadcaster of a very long time. 24 00:01:43.080 --> 00:01:48.820 Much published, the author of a number of books, mixed blessings among them, 25 00:01:48.920 --> 00:01:52.840 but also Papal Power most recently, which has caused him some strife, 26 00:01:52.840 --> 00:01:54.360 about which I'll say something in a moment. 27 00:01:54.940 --> 00:01:58.740 He's also an environmentalist, increasingly so in recent years. 28 00:01:58.760 --> 00:02:02.900 And many of you may have seen his documentary on the ABC, God's Earth. 29 00:02:03.500 --> 00:02:06.740 Paul is currently distinguished by being under investigation 30 00:02:07.240 --> 00:02:08.880 by the Roman Catholic congregation. 31 00:02:12.480 --> 00:02:17.280 The equivalent really of the inquisition, I suppose you'd say, Paul. 32 00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:18.120 Wouldn't you? 33 00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:24.420 The inquisition, I suppose you'd say, Paul. 34 00:02:24.640 --> 00:02:25.240 Wouldn't you? 35 00:02:26.980 --> 00:02:28.740 So, there are wars and wars. 36 00:02:28.740 --> 00:02:30.880 And Paul is in a war of a very particular kind. 37 00:02:31.000 --> 00:02:33.420 Ladies and gentlemen, could I ask you to welcome Paul Collins. 38 00:02:34.320 --> 00:02:35.440 Thank you. 39 00:02:43.260 --> 00:02:50.160 The abstract that was sent to us in preparation for this session has an opening sentence that goes, 40 00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:57.320 no one goes off to war without the blessing of the priests or equivalent ideological functionaries. 41 00:02:57.600 --> 00:02:58.720 Well, I'm glad to hear that. 42 00:02:58.720 --> 00:02:59.560 I'm glad I'm a priest. 43 00:02:59.860 --> 00:03:03.660 I certainly wouldn't like to be an ideological functionary. 44 00:03:04.920 --> 00:03:11.040 I come from a tradition which, at its beginning, was pacifist. 45 00:03:11.420 --> 00:03:15.400 The early church, right up to the time of the Edict of Milan, 46 00:03:15.720 --> 00:03:18.780 the time of Constantine the Great, 313, 314, 47 00:03:19.080 --> 00:03:24.260 the church's tradition was almost completely pacifist. 48 00:03:24.300 --> 00:03:27.280 I say almost completely because it wasn't completely. 49 00:03:28.040 --> 00:03:28.340 But it... 50 00:03:28.720 --> 00:03:31.940 It was 95% pacifist. 51 00:03:32.780 --> 00:03:39.360 What happened in 313 and 314 when Constantine gained power in the Roman Empire, 52 00:03:40.340 --> 00:03:43.000 gradually gaining power over the whole empire, 53 00:03:43.320 --> 00:03:50.620 was that for the first time, the Christian church had to come to terms with the reality of dealing with state power. 54 00:03:50.960 --> 00:03:55.960 It had to come to terms with the fact that numbers of converts flocked to it 55 00:03:55.960 --> 00:03:58.700 who were certainly not as committed. 56 00:03:58.720 --> 00:04:01.080 as Christians had been in the past. 57 00:04:01.520 --> 00:04:08.020 So that by 426, when Augustine comes to write his great City of God, 58 00:04:08.320 --> 00:04:13.400 he has to try to maintain something of that pacifist tradition 59 00:04:13.400 --> 00:04:15.340 which comes from the early church, 60 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:18.420 but to contain it within what he calls a theory of, 61 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:22.300 or what has been subsequently called a theory of just war. 62 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:27.640 Now, I think in some ways, 63 00:04:27.700 --> 00:04:28.700 this theory has... 64 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:34.460 has served us to some extent throughout the history of the Christian era. 65 00:04:34.980 --> 00:04:40.680 I mean, it is interesting to have a look at the nature of what just war has come to mean. 66 00:04:41.060 --> 00:04:45.920 It was developed largely, I think, in the terms in which we've inherited it 67 00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:49.780 in the 16th and 17th centuries by a number of thinkers. 68 00:04:50.300 --> 00:04:52.300 Fundamentally, it has five elements. 69 00:04:52.600 --> 00:04:55.880 It begins with a presumption against war. 70 00:04:56.120 --> 00:04:58.100 I think we tend to forget that. 71 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:04.280 That at the essence of certainly of all of the great religious traditions teaching 72 00:05:04.280 --> 00:05:07.900 is in many ways, just as the early church had it, 73 00:05:07.940 --> 00:05:11.240 a pacifist tradition, a tradition against war, 74 00:05:11.400 --> 00:05:13.100 and a presumption against it. 75 00:05:13.900 --> 00:05:16.880 Secondly, the just war theory always held 76 00:05:16.880 --> 00:05:22.160 that offensive war of any sort was never morally justified. 77 00:05:23.440 --> 00:05:28.700 Thirdly, the indiscriminate destruction of civilians or non-combatants 78 00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:31.760 is in no way never permitted. 79 00:05:31.880 --> 00:05:32.780 It's never permitted. 80 00:05:32.960 --> 00:05:40.260 So that in some ways, the essence of one of the problems that we face at the present moment 81 00:05:40.260 --> 00:05:44.020 is of course, is the total nature of modern warfare. 82 00:05:44.220 --> 00:05:49.400 That made sense in terms of feudal warfare or in mercenary warfare. 83 00:05:49.880 --> 00:05:54.860 But it certainly makes no sense in terms of 20th century warfare, 84 00:05:55.240 --> 00:05:58.700 which so often, as the Serbians of Germany, 85 00:05:58.700 --> 00:06:00.580 have discovered, comes from the skies. 86 00:06:00.880 --> 00:06:06.220 The indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or infrastructures of cities, 87 00:06:06.460 --> 00:06:09.300 or I think even more importantly these days, 88 00:06:09.520 --> 00:06:15.920 the ecology and the environment upon which we are so dependent. 89 00:06:16.260 --> 00:06:20.760 So that discrimination is part of just war theory. 90 00:06:22.420 --> 00:06:28.680 A fifth element within it is that when one adopts a doctrine, 91 00:06:28.700 --> 00:06:33.720 a defensive strategy, whether it be conventional or nuclear, 92 00:06:33.800 --> 00:06:36.140 I suppose we would be saying they're theater nuclear, 93 00:06:37.460 --> 00:06:40.760 the question of proportionality enters in. 94 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:43.780 In other words, do you go in for the kill? 95 00:06:44.220 --> 00:06:47.700 There's a sense in which you might well say that the Allies, 96 00:06:48.520 --> 00:06:52.680 at the end of the Gulf War, maintained proportionality 97 00:06:53.260 --> 00:06:55.220 in the sense that they didn't go in for the kill. 98 00:06:55.300 --> 00:06:56.780 They didn't get Saddam Hussein. 99 00:06:58.700 --> 00:07:03.400 Now I think that what's happened is that it's these key questions 100 00:07:04.040 --> 00:07:07.860 of the indiscriminate and total nature of modern warfare, 101 00:07:08.200 --> 00:07:13.120 whether it be world war or whether it be theater war, 102 00:07:13.340 --> 00:07:16.940 and the whole question of proportionality. 103 00:07:18.580 --> 00:07:21.600 Absolutely central, I think, to this question. 104 00:07:22.620 --> 00:07:25.200 What interestingly is happening is that more and more I think 105 00:07:25.200 --> 00:07:27.780 in certainly in religious and in Christian circles, 106 00:07:27.860 --> 00:07:28.680 if you look at Christianity, you'll notice that the 107 00:07:28.700 --> 00:07:33.440 Christian ethicists, increasingly there is an abandonment 108 00:07:33.440 --> 00:07:38.200 of just war and a return to a pacifist tradition. 109 00:07:38.740 --> 00:07:41.300 Interestingly, during the Gulf War, for instance, 110 00:07:41.880 --> 00:07:46.740 the magazine that is, it's a weekly magazine put 111 00:07:46.740 --> 00:07:50.160 out by the Italian Jesuits, which has a kind 112 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:53.180 of a semi-official status for the Vatican, 113 00:07:53.400 --> 00:07:57.760 La Civiltà Cattolica, and it ran a very long editorial, 114 00:07:58.520 --> 00:07:58.680 totalitarian, and it was a very long editorial, totalitarian, 115 00:07:58.680 --> 00:08:04.560 totally opposed to the Gulf War and espousing pacifist principles. 116 00:08:05.100 --> 00:08:09.440 Now a number of other Catholic ethicists attacked that 117 00:08:09.440 --> 00:08:13.740 and said it was unreal, that it was not in touch with reality. 118 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:16.860 And one of the groups that have tried to think 119 00:08:16.860 --> 00:08:20.840 about this a little bit particularly have been the United States Catholic bishops, 120 00:08:20.900 --> 00:08:25.080 because of course they're the ones who are in the most powerful country 121 00:08:25.080 --> 00:08:27.960 in the world, and for them these are real issues. 122 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:33.880 And the US bishops have said while they are not totally pacifist, 123 00:08:33.940 --> 00:08:37.760 they talk about what they call comparative justice. 124 00:08:39.160 --> 00:08:42.020 And by that they mean that a broad sense 125 00:08:42.020 --> 00:08:47.460 of proportionality must obtain whereby the benefits that result 126 00:08:47.460 --> 00:08:53.620 from resort to force outweigh the evils that such force will produce. 127 00:08:55.300 --> 00:08:58.660 Now that, when you think about that, 128 00:08:58.680 --> 00:09:03.120 it really does sound like, you know, Solomon weighing it all up. 129 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:09.480 And, I mean, to me the problem always is that if you are looking at going to war, 130 00:09:09.620 --> 00:09:12.200 you are not in a position to act like Solomon. 131 00:09:12.740 --> 00:09:15.260 I mean, that is part of the problem. 132 00:09:16.220 --> 00:09:20.300 So what I think, I mean, if you're asking me for a conclusion, 133 00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:23.240 if you're asking me for an infallible statement, 134 00:09:23.560 --> 00:09:27.880 well, I often enunciate infallible statements, but... 135 00:09:29.340 --> 00:09:33.340 and they're normally wrong, like other people 136 00:09:33.340 --> 00:09:34.960 who enunciate infallible statements. 137 00:09:35.280 --> 00:09:43.080 But the reality is, I think, that what we're struggling 138 00:09:43.080 --> 00:09:46.560 with at the present moment is maintaining some sense 139 00:09:46.560 --> 00:09:48.700 of proportion in all of this. 140 00:09:48.780 --> 00:09:52.320 Maintaining some sense of discrimination in all of this. 141 00:09:52.500 --> 00:09:57.560 And above all, hanging onto the ideal that peaceful means 142 00:09:57.880 --> 00:10:02.320 ought be the fundamental way in which we attempt 143 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:04.260 to resolve our conflicts. 144 00:10:05.160 --> 00:10:08.640 Finally, I just want to say something about what, in fact, 145 00:10:08.640 --> 00:10:12.860 I think, is the emerging form of warfare these days. 146 00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:15.140 And it is interesting, you see. 147 00:10:15.220 --> 00:10:18.080 I actually think that more and more war is going to be 148 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:21.340 over resources, particularly resources like water. 149 00:10:22.140 --> 00:10:25.400 I mean, in the Middle East that is a reality. 150 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:27.860 I think that war is also a reality. 151 00:10:27.860 --> 00:10:29.740 It's also going to be over things like living space. 152 00:10:30.080 --> 00:10:34.280 Because if ocean levels rise, Bangladesh is in a lot 153 00:10:34.280 --> 00:10:37.040 of trouble, and there are a lot of people in Bangladesh. 154 00:10:37.700 --> 00:10:42.500 But I do think that what is starting to emerge is kind 155 00:10:42.500 --> 00:10:44.680 of these ethnic wars. 156 00:10:45.220 --> 00:10:48.220 And the way, and the thing that worries me is the way 157 00:10:48.220 --> 00:10:51.340 in which religion is used within these contexts. 158 00:10:52.860 --> 00:10:55.640 As a way of defining oneself. 159 00:10:56.000 --> 00:10:57.660 The Serbs, generally, 160 00:10:57.660 --> 00:10:59.020 speaking are orthodox. 161 00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:02.180 The Kosovans, the people of Kosovo, 162 00:11:02.260 --> 00:11:03.700 generally speaking, are Muslim. 163 00:11:04.620 --> 00:11:07.380 In Ireland, in Northern Ireland, you have Catholics 164 00:11:07.380 --> 00:11:09.340 and Protestants struggling with each other. 165 00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:11.840 How do we deal with these kind of issues? 166 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:15.260 I think that is a real emerging problem. 167 00:11:15.560 --> 00:11:18.980 I have a few thoughts on it, but I want to limit this 168 00:11:18.980 --> 00:11:23.300 because being a broadcaster, I'm used to living 169 00:11:23.300 --> 00:11:26.440 with time constraints, and I think that discussion 170 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:27.640 from you is a little bit more difficult. 171 00:11:27.660 --> 00:11:30.200 I think that is just as good as pontification from me. 172 00:11:30.320 --> 00:11:31.060 So I'll leave it there. 173 00:11:41.220 --> 00:11:43.260 We might just pour some water. 174 00:11:43.540 --> 00:11:45.160 Paul, do you want to do the honors? 175 00:11:45.300 --> 00:11:45.780 Water, yes. 176 00:11:46.460 --> 00:11:47.720 I see we're talking about water. 177 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:50.660 We're taking a sort of Tolstoyan approach this morning, 178 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:53.240 talking not just about war, but about peace. 179 00:11:53.840 --> 00:11:56.800 And I think it would be true to say that if we were thinking 180 00:11:56.800 --> 00:11:57.640 about peace, we would be talking about peace, but we would be 181 00:11:57.640 --> 00:11:58.140 more aboutз 182 00:12:21.340 --> 00:12:28.960 we've seen is a very powerful but also a very lucid and articulate spokesperson for peace 183 00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:34.880 throughout the world. So it's a great pleasure to welcome you to Adelaide particularly, but 184 00:12:34.880 --> 00:12:42.640 to Australia for the first time. Dr. Ashrawi, as we all know, has been a minister in the 185 00:12:42.640 --> 00:12:49.400 Palestine National Authority, a minister for education. She's a very broad person. Her 186 00:12:49.400 --> 00:12:54.500 books range from books about politics, peace, democracy, to books about poetry. Your background 187 00:12:54.500 --> 00:13:00.100 is in English literature. So that's enough. I want to hear what she has to say. Would 188 00:13:00.100 --> 00:13:02.160 I ask you to welcome, please, Dr. Hanan Ashrawi. 189 00:13:15.220 --> 00:13:19.200 Thank you very much. I really appreciate the invitation. 190 00:13:19.400 --> 00:13:22.240 Thank you very much. I really appreciate the invitation and the opportunity to be among 191 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:28.080 such distinguished and impressive company, but to be also among you here in Adelaide and 192 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:34.640 in Australia. I won't reiterate my gratitude and the statements I made this morning. But 193 00:13:34.640 --> 00:13:38.280 I would like to take the opportunity to pick up where you left off or perhaps to pick up 194 00:13:38.280 --> 00:13:45.320 a theme that you started. Because I believe I personally have been living in a place where 195 00:13:45.920 --> 00:13:49.020 I've been on the receiving end of all sorts of wars. 196 00:13:49.640 --> 00:13:58.020 And the church, not least of which, I mean from the Crusades and onwards. Because anybody 197 00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:04.900 or any power or any authority that decides to embark on such a course of action will 198 00:14:04.900 --> 00:14:10.160 certainly claim higher authority. I don't think there has been any war that hasn't been 199 00:14:10.160 --> 00:14:17.780 justified, rationalized in the name of higher authority, be it God, be it moral standards, 200 00:14:18.060 --> 00:14:18.740 be it, you know, 201 00:14:19.400 --> 00:14:26.320 historical rights, any of the absolutes that people feel might be a convenient justification. 202 00:14:26.880 --> 00:14:31.880 And I've always said that the worst thing that can be done is when people sort of bring 203 00:14:31.880 --> 00:14:38.360 down God to take sides on geopolitical issues and on land demarcations. Because then you 204 00:14:38.360 --> 00:14:45.940 enter into the absolute zero sum game because my God might not approve of what your God 205 00:14:45.940 --> 00:14:47.080 told you and so on. 206 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:48.600 Then again, God becomes 207 00:14:48.740 --> 00:14:55.600 very subjective in his intervention in temporal realities. So I would just say that anyway, 208 00:14:55.720 --> 00:15:02.260 by definition, war does tend to be subjective, intensely subjective. And therefore you can 209 00:15:02.260 --> 00:15:07.240 pick up whatever justification you want and the higher the authority, the better it is 210 00:15:07.240 --> 00:15:17.480 to rationalize it. It is in nature also an unbridled exercise of destructive power. And 211 00:15:17.480 --> 00:15:17.920 therefore, 212 00:15:18.740 --> 00:15:26.700 it has to fit within, I think, more of a global system of accountability, which leads 213 00:15:26.700 --> 00:15:32.800 me to the real issue, I think. The real issue is question of responsibility and the question 214 00:15:32.800 --> 00:15:40.160 of intervention. Now when we talk about the question of intervention, we again go back 215 00:15:40.160 --> 00:15:46.220 to biblical questions. Am I my brother's or my sister's keeper? And since we have evolved 216 00:15:46.220 --> 00:15:48.720 a system of interdependence and mutuality, I think that we need to be more responsible. 217 00:15:48.720 --> 00:16:04.880 It is about making more insistent about making more insistent about making more insistent 218 00:16:04.880 --> 00:16:06.520 making more insistent about making more insistent about making more insistent about making more 219 00:16:06.520 --> 00:16:07.480 insistent about making more insistent about making more insistent about making more insistent 220 00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:08.160 insistent about making more insistent about making more insistent about making more insistent 221 00:16:08.160 --> 00:16:08.440 about making more insistent about making more insistent about making more insistent about making more 222 00:16:08.440 --> 00:16:09.200 insistent about making more insistent about making more insistent about making more insistent about making more 223 00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:12.700 insistent about making more insistent about making more insistent about making more insistent about making more 224 00:16:12.700 --> 00:16:18.360 insistent about making more insistent about making more insistent about making more 225 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:24.040 luxury, can afford the luxury of saying, you know, I lead my own life, I go off in my own 226 00:16:24.040 --> 00:16:29.540 way, and I have my little corner, I'm neither responsible nor am I accountable. 227 00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:36.880 And in that sense, intervention, I believe, is required, particularly given global realities 228 00:16:36.880 --> 00:16:44.260 where you do have a system of interdependence, as I said, a system of impact and ripple effect 229 00:16:44.260 --> 00:16:51.100 wherever you do, whatever you do, the information technology, the knowledge revolution, all 230 00:16:51.100 --> 00:16:57.380 of this make it imperative that we understand the impact of whatever decision we make within 231 00:16:57.380 --> 00:17:04.200 its series of concentric circles, if you wish, or chain of events, or ripple effect. 232 00:17:05.700 --> 00:17:10.560 So what we need to do in these global realities, which we probably will be discussing later, 233 00:17:11.380 --> 00:17:14.160 is evolve the instruments and the mechanisms. 234 00:17:14.260 --> 00:17:19.900 We need to evolve the mechanisms of intervention that do not adopt violent intervention, military 235 00:17:19.900 --> 00:17:21.900 intervention as the only means. 236 00:17:22.120 --> 00:17:28.500 And the most appropriate form of intervention, I've always believed, is the preemptive intervention, 237 00:17:28.900 --> 00:17:34.160 the constructive intervention, and the preventive intervention. 238 00:17:34.580 --> 00:17:38.300 Wars do not happen in an unpredictable way. 239 00:17:38.420 --> 00:17:40.240 Wars should not surprise any of us. 240 00:17:40.460 --> 00:17:43.420 All the symptoms are familiar, predictable. 241 00:17:43.420 --> 00:17:44.740 They're definable. 242 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:51.880 And therefore, once the decision is taken to go to war, it has been there in many ways 243 00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:58.240 for a long time, and it should have been prevented before it became a so-called inevitability 244 00:17:58.240 --> 00:17:59.120 or a choice. 245 00:18:00.280 --> 00:18:07.440 And therefore, the preventive, preemptive intervention is, of course, the most desirable, 246 00:18:07.660 --> 00:18:13.300 where you resolve the conflict as it arises. 247 00:18:13.420 --> 00:18:19.460 Where you resolve the issues, the causes of conflict before they become entirely confrontational. 248 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:24.060 And this brings me to the question of mediation and arbitration. 249 00:18:25.120 --> 00:18:29.260 I believe that mediation is a very desirable exercise constantly. 250 00:18:29.900 --> 00:18:35.820 And that usually when it is a bilateral issue, when two parties, each of which believes that 251 00:18:35.820 --> 00:18:42.240 it has, you know, a sort of monopoly on right or justice, attempts to exercise that absolute 252 00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:42.680 monopoly. 253 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:49.520 Then you need a third party or third parties involvement and engagement. 254 00:18:49.840 --> 00:18:54.500 These are key terms for pre-conflict conflict resolution. 255 00:18:55.500 --> 00:19:04.460 And therefore, intervention, mediation, preemptive resolution, engagement, dialogue, communication, 256 00:19:04.820 --> 00:19:10.320 these are essential components for a different type of conflict resolution which doesn't 257 00:19:10.320 --> 00:19:12.660 have to wait to occur. 258 00:19:12.660 --> 00:19:14.780 Of course, you need to be able to adopt after the fact strategies. 259 00:19:14.860 --> 00:19:19.440 Because war generally is an after the fact strategy, isn't it? 260 00:19:19.520 --> 00:19:21.640 It is not before the fact strategy. 261 00:19:22.280 --> 00:19:25.660 And that takes us to questions that are close to my heart. 262 00:19:25.700 --> 00:19:29.440 Issues of diversity and pluralism within a global system. 263 00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:33.000 And therefore, the question of identity and authenticity. 264 00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:35.040 The integrity of one's identity. 265 00:19:35.260 --> 00:19:40.700 Most people enter into war either on the basis, as we said, of absolute right and historical 266 00:19:40.700 --> 00:19:47.740 right or on the question of claim to an integrity of an identity that has long 267 00:19:47.740 --> 00:19:52.700 been denied or that is in the process of being denied and therefore recognition 268 00:19:52.700 --> 00:19:59.360 of identity is essential as part of the pre-emptive preventive process and that 269 00:19:59.360 --> 00:20:03.960 it is perfectly legitimate and it is perfectly not only legitimate but 270 00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:09.420 desirable only accepted what desirable to celebrate this pluralism and the 271 00:20:09.420 --> 00:20:14.020 authenticity and the integrity of separate identities there's nothing 272 00:20:14.020 --> 00:20:18.420 wrong with that but you see our organizing principles traditionally have 273 00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:25.420 been very territorial in many ways very exclusive we have defined boundaries in 274 00:20:25.420 --> 00:20:30.020 geopolitical terms and I think boundaries is a very interesting concept 275 00:20:30.020 --> 00:20:38.960 which we should discuss also and again we have defined identity in terms of 276 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:39.400 sovereignty and integrity and we have defined identity in terms of sovereignty 277 00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:45.780 and I believe we have to redefine sovereignty and in terms of issues of 278 00:20:45.780 --> 00:20:54.860 control so at this point when we talk about commonly agreed upon terms like 279 00:20:54.860 --> 00:20:58.220 self-determination which is very applicable to Palestinians for example 280 00:21:00.100 --> 00:21:07.060 and identity and redemption of history and sovereignty and so on how do we 281 00:21:07.060 --> 00:21:09.300 measure that against a new 282 00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:16.240 and emerging global system of sort of human interaction which is supra-national 283 00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:22.600 we're talking about the waning of the nation-state the 19th century concept and 284 00:21:23.120 --> 00:21:29.980 perhaps the forging of new sets of relationships most wars certainly not 285 00:21:29.980 --> 00:21:34.000 only have been territorial and over resources as well but over issues that 286 00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:38.620 are undefinable as we talked about like identity and so on 287 00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:46.080 how do we redefine the issue of sovereignty not in national protective 288 00:21:46.080 --> 00:21:52.360 defensive exclusive terms but an issue of an issue of human sovereignty and in 289 00:21:52.360 --> 00:21:59.600 other words pertaining to the will and to the vision and maybe even in this 290 00:21:59.600 --> 00:22:05.980 is jaded age of cynicism to moral and ethical identities rather than to self 291 00:22:05.980 --> 00:22:09.380 interest proprietorship approaches and so on and so forth and I think that's a very important issue that we need to address in the next few days. 292 00:22:20.360 --> 00:22:21.380 are they are they 293 00:22:21.380 --> 00:22:21.700 are they 294 00:22:21.700 --> 00:22:22.220 are they 295 00:22:22.220 --> 00:22:24.800 are they 296 00:22:24.800 --> 00:22:25.100 are they 297 00:22:25.100 --> 00:22:26.220 are they 298 00:22:26.220 --> 00:22:27.920 are they 299 00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:29.260 are they 300 00:22:29.260 --> 00:22:30.200 are they 301 00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:32.660 are they 302 00:22:32.660 --> 00:22:32.720 are they 303 00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:32.960 are they 304 00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:32.980 are they 305 00:22:32.980 --> 00:22:33.140 are they 306 00:22:33.140 --> 00:22:33.300 are they 307 00:22:33.300 --> 00:22:33.380 are they 308 00:22:33.380 --> 00:22:33.540 are they 309 00:22:33.540 --> 00:22:33.760 are they 310 00:22:33.760 --> 00:22:34.200 are they 311 00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:34.420 are they 312 00:22:34.420 --> 00:22:35.080 are they are 313 00:22:37.260 --> 00:22:38.140 are they are 314 00:22:38.140 --> 00:22:38.260 are they are 315 00:22:38.260 --> 00:22:38.540 are they are 316 00:22:39.380 --> 00:22:43.680 the narrative of history based on, not on perceptions, 317 00:22:43.840 --> 00:22:47.960 and not on narrow propaganda, and not on a rewriting of history, 318 00:22:48.080 --> 00:22:53.020 but on actually looking at the facts and having the courage to say, 319 00:22:53.100 --> 00:22:57.480 these were the facts, these were the motives, and hence the results. 320 00:22:57.900 --> 00:23:05.560 And that's why the question of retelling history in an authentic way is very important, 321 00:23:05.800 --> 00:23:08.280 because this is the redemptive process. 322 00:23:08.280 --> 00:23:13.020 This is a question of recognition of guilt or culpability. 323 00:23:13.400 --> 00:23:16.360 That is the starting point for the future. 324 00:23:16.440 --> 00:23:18.460 That's where it comes into sway. 325 00:23:21.260 --> 00:23:23.820 Again, when we talk about contemporary wars, 326 00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:29.460 now bodies are claiming the right to declare war. 327 00:23:30.300 --> 00:23:32.420 The questions are, who is to decide? 328 00:23:33.600 --> 00:23:38.180 NATO can decide, as it says here, or the UN decides to declare war. 329 00:23:38.280 --> 00:23:41.320 What represents the will of the global community? 330 00:23:41.600 --> 00:23:46.060 I believe we've had international organizations, regional organizations, 331 00:23:46.080 --> 00:23:49.660 that reflect a certain power balance or imbalance, 332 00:23:50.380 --> 00:23:54.940 that reflect the results of a certain war at a certain time in history. 333 00:23:55.220 --> 00:23:58.680 Now we need to reconsider global organizations 334 00:23:59.420 --> 00:24:05.740 that would provide new principles of not just organization, but interaction. 335 00:24:06.220 --> 00:24:08.100 Who gives any power? 336 00:24:08.280 --> 00:24:09.020 Who has the right to decide? 337 00:24:09.940 --> 00:24:13.440 Who decides on the timing of the intervention? 338 00:24:13.840 --> 00:24:16.640 And who decides on the nature of the intervention? 339 00:24:16.980 --> 00:24:19.820 And who decides on the instruments of intervention? 340 00:24:20.360 --> 00:24:24.840 These are very clear issues and very crucial issues to be defined, 341 00:24:24.980 --> 00:24:28.320 because we are seeing an abuse of power, 342 00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:35.460 and we are seeing very clearly power used in the service of self-interest, 343 00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:38.260 or the interest of the haves versus the haves. 344 00:24:38.280 --> 00:24:41.740 And these are defined again in new terms, 345 00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:44.040 which I will reserve for this afternoon's discussion. 346 00:24:45.020 --> 00:24:49.240 My last question is, these were the military options. 347 00:24:49.580 --> 00:24:50.820 Are military options inevitable? 348 00:24:51.220 --> 00:24:52.540 I don't believe they are inevitable. 349 00:24:52.700 --> 00:24:55.960 If we believe that intervention is inevitable in the sense that it is, 350 00:24:56.080 --> 00:25:01.340 again, it can be a constructive and positive principle of organization and conflict resolution, 351 00:25:01.800 --> 00:25:03.280 there are many types of intervention. 352 00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:06.340 Why should people resort to military intervention? 353 00:25:06.760 --> 00:25:08.200 Now, other than the... 354 00:25:08.280 --> 00:25:11.140 as I said, unbridled exercise of power, 355 00:25:11.220 --> 00:25:13.300 and other than the interest of the... 356 00:25:13.300 --> 00:25:16.580 the economic interest of those who manufacture weapons, 357 00:25:17.020 --> 00:25:19.740 and certainly that has to be taken into account, 358 00:25:21.880 --> 00:25:24.440 I believe that there is... 359 00:25:24.440 --> 00:25:27.740 that stems, and they're not inevitable, we can talk about that. 360 00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:33.580 It stems from a mistaken notion, and quite often a racist notion, 361 00:25:33.900 --> 00:25:37.540 that in contemporary geopolitical realities, 362 00:25:37.700 --> 00:25:38.260 the leadership is not... 363 00:25:38.260 --> 00:25:42.860 the leadership or officialdom or political powers represent the people, 364 00:25:43.580 --> 00:25:45.960 and are the collective will of the people. 365 00:25:47.260 --> 00:25:49.860 But in most cases where there has been military intervention, 366 00:25:50.360 --> 00:25:54.420 the people who took decisions, 367 00:25:54.760 --> 00:25:58.620 the leaders who took decisions on behalf of the people were non-representative, 368 00:25:58.840 --> 00:26:00.800 generally tend to be dictatorial, 369 00:26:01.400 --> 00:26:07.660 and therefore their own nation or their own people end up suffering double jeopardy, 370 00:26:07.660 --> 00:26:08.240 or dual poverty. 371 00:26:08.260 --> 00:26:08.540 And this is a punishment. 372 00:26:08.780 --> 00:26:11.940 They are punished because they have such a dictatorial regime, 373 00:26:12.220 --> 00:26:16.420 and then they have to bear the consequences of the actions and decisions 374 00:26:16.420 --> 00:26:19.100 of that dictatorial or oppressive regime. 375 00:26:19.380 --> 00:26:22.980 And those who claim to have the right to intervene militarily 376 00:26:24.260 --> 00:26:26.260 are really punishing the innocent people, 377 00:26:26.460 --> 00:26:29.520 not the leadership or the officials. 378 00:26:30.780 --> 00:26:34.860 And this stems, in a sense, from, on the one hand, 379 00:26:34.860 --> 00:26:36.740 the officials' view of proprietorship, 380 00:26:36.740 --> 00:26:39.000 that they own the land and they own the people, 381 00:26:39.140 --> 00:26:43.740 and this type of distortion is carried over into the power 382 00:26:44.600 --> 00:26:46.480 that decides to intervene militarily. 383 00:26:47.940 --> 00:26:51.420 Edward Said once said that the mistake that the Allies made 384 00:26:51.420 --> 00:26:57.980 in bobbing Iraq back to the Stone Ages, 385 00:26:58.120 --> 00:26:59.380 as they said, 386 00:26:59.520 --> 00:27:04.000 was that they assumed that all the Iraqi people are miniature Saddams, 387 00:27:04.180 --> 00:27:05.400 you know, little Saddams, 388 00:27:05.420 --> 00:27:06.720 and therefore they have the moral right to do so. 389 00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:09.640 They have the moral authority to inflict as much punishment on them 390 00:27:09.640 --> 00:27:10.880 as they could. 391 00:27:11.120 --> 00:27:14.400 Now, does Saddam own the people of Iraq? 392 00:27:15.060 --> 00:27:19.060 Does he own the land and resources of Iraq? 393 00:27:19.340 --> 00:27:23.920 Does he own the rich and diverse cultural history and heritage of Iraq? 394 00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:29.400 And can people in their attack on Saddam 395 00:27:29.400 --> 00:27:32.420 and his ruinous and tragic decisions 396 00:27:32.420 --> 00:27:35.480 and horrible lack of responsibility 397 00:27:35.480 --> 00:27:38.040 and vision and moral authority, 398 00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:43.180 in doing that, do they have the right to attack layers and layers 399 00:27:43.180 --> 00:27:47.800 of history, of authenticity, of identity, and of human reality? 400 00:27:48.080 --> 00:27:50.540 Who is paying the price in that sense? 401 00:27:50.740 --> 00:27:52.480