WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.390 --> 00:00:03.480 Ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon. Good evening. 2 00:00:03.810 --> 00:00:08.640 Welcome to the last session and the awesome Adelaide 3 00:00:08.641 --> 00:00:13.230 festival of ideas taking place in the city of infinite 4 00:00:13.231 --> 00:00:17.370 enlightenment and endless possibility. 5 00:00:19.320 --> 00:00:22.800 We'd like to begin this session by acknowledging the Ghana people, 6 00:00:23.070 --> 00:00:25.410 the traditional custodians of this land, 7 00:00:25.500 --> 00:00:29.160 and one of the great cultural and moral hopes for its future 8 00:00:37.990 --> 00:00:40.450 The festival has had a number of themes. 9 00:00:40.451 --> 00:00:45.310 The themes are trying to deal with the actual core issues 10 00:00:45.311 --> 00:00:49.660 that are facing this country and this population. And of course, by extent, 11 00:00:50.230 --> 00:00:51.580 extension the rest of the world. 12 00:00:51.581 --> 00:00:55.570 One of the reasons I moved from Los Angeles to south Australia is because south 13 00:00:55.990 --> 00:00:57.310 Australia has hit the wall. First, 14 00:00:59.230 --> 00:01:02.080 This sense that you have here in south Australia, 15 00:01:02.081 --> 00:01:06.260 the genuine worst case scenario of, you know, 16 00:01:06.261 --> 00:01:10.930 a completely collapsed economy and that a 17 00:01:10.931 --> 00:01:15.610 lot of the issues that the rest of the planet is going to face over time are 18 00:01:15.611 --> 00:01:18.880 actually in terms of the industrialized world, 19 00:01:18.910 --> 00:01:22.090 presenting themselves in their most extreme and immediate forms right here. 20 00:01:22.091 --> 00:01:22.924 And right now, 21 00:01:24.370 --> 00:01:27.460 which puts this population in a leadership position. 22 00:01:35.920 --> 00:01:39.430 So what's helpful when you're a leader is to have the best advice. 23 00:01:39.760 --> 00:01:44.620 And the festival of ideas has been gathering some of the wisest 24 00:01:44.621 --> 00:01:49.420 people in the world to come and share with us and with each 25 00:01:49.421 --> 00:01:54.250 other particularly in the context of an interdisciplinary discussion. 26 00:01:54.550 --> 00:01:59.050 I think we live in the 20th century, we've escaped from the 20th century, 27 00:01:59.290 --> 00:02:03.790 that disease of expertise the sense of experts talking to 28 00:02:03.791 --> 00:02:04.720 themselves. 29 00:02:04.810 --> 00:02:09.580 And I think one of the tasks is engaging in the questions 30 00:02:09.581 --> 00:02:14.530 before us in holistic manner in which the disciplines 31 00:02:14.620 --> 00:02:16.240 are engaging with each other, 32 00:02:16.720 --> 00:02:20.500 in which we begin to realize the dimensionality of many of the things that we're 33 00:02:20.501 --> 00:02:24.160 confronting in which our culture of intervention, 34 00:02:24.161 --> 00:02:27.310 which has usually been across a very, very narrow spectrum. 35 00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:29.260 We will intervene on drugs, 36 00:02:29.290 --> 00:02:34.270 or we will build a dam in China without awareness of a larger set 37 00:02:34.271 --> 00:02:37.690 of cultural consequences without awareness of a larger set of environmental 38 00:02:37.691 --> 00:02:39.310 circumstances without, you know, 39 00:02:39.520 --> 00:02:44.260 constantly not noticing the dimensionality of all of the things we're 40 00:02:44.261 --> 00:02:46.510 facing. And in fact, 41 00:02:46.720 --> 00:02:50.950 that very dimensionality and the need to engage in a 42 00:02:50.951 --> 00:02:55.210 democratic interdisciplinary intercultural dialogue is 43 00:02:57.161 --> 00:02:58.930 three quarters to solving the problem, 44 00:02:59.770 --> 00:03:04.540 Which is why not try little democracy and why not actually 45 00:03:05.020 --> 00:03:09.790 try some coalition building and some attempt to reach outside one's 46 00:03:09.850 --> 00:03:14.770 own sphere so that we begin to arrive at 47 00:03:17.340 --> 00:03:21.990 collective ways of understanding in this new paradigm. 48 00:03:21.991 --> 00:03:25.050 And I think that's what we're gathered here on our last session to discuss. 49 00:03:26.520 --> 00:03:31.320 I want to emphasize that the question of water and population was at the 50 00:03:31.321 --> 00:03:35.160 core of the crucial questions around the Federation of this country. 51 00:03:36.150 --> 00:03:40.350 Those questions have not gone away as we're celebrating the centenary of 52 00:03:40.351 --> 00:03:41.184 Federation. 53 00:03:41.490 --> 00:03:44.790 Those questions just have to be dealt with in actually a much deeper way than 54 00:03:44.791 --> 00:03:48.690 ever before. When we asked about water and population, 55 00:03:48.691 --> 00:03:52.500 the fact that the world's population is about to double that water is a finite 56 00:03:52.501 --> 00:03:53.334 resource. 57 00:03:54.150 --> 00:03:58.140 We're getting beyond just a flat statement of statistics. 58 00:03:58.560 --> 00:04:02.220 We're moving into the fact that the essence of life itself will not be 59 00:04:02.221 --> 00:04:03.054 available. 60 00:04:06.090 --> 00:04:09.210 And the question is who are the extra people, 61 00:04:11.910 --> 00:04:16.830 which of us votes to eliminate our grandparents or our next child? 62 00:04:19.880 --> 00:04:22.490 If there are too many of us who are the people who are going to go? 63 00:04:24.290 --> 00:04:27.290 Who are the people who are going to make sure don't reproduce? 64 00:04:30.380 --> 00:04:32.630 We're into questions. So shocking. 65 00:04:36.350 --> 00:04:36.741 In fact, 66 00:04:36.741 --> 00:04:39.980 the only way to deal with them is to deal with what those questions are. 67 00:04:39.981 --> 00:04:44.450 In fact, asking us. Wishes, 68 00:04:44.451 --> 00:04:48.320 it's time for a major series of paradigm shifts 69 00:04:50.390 --> 00:04:51.710 in the whole culture. The 70 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:56.570 extraordinary group that we have today is 71 00:04:58.370 --> 00:05:00.110 a fairly courageous bunch. We're going to 72 00:05:01.941 --> 00:05:06.740 begin by asking a series of individual questions and 73 00:05:06.741 --> 00:05:11.330 then open out into fairly free-wheeling discussion of ideas. 74 00:05:11.720 --> 00:05:15.590 Because at this point there is nothing to lose and everything to gain. 75 00:05:16.670 --> 00:05:19.160 And then we'll open that out into questions from the floor. 76 00:05:20.450 --> 00:05:22.430 Before embarking on this adventure. 77 00:05:22.460 --> 00:05:26.540 I would first like to acknowledge and thank the 78 00:05:26.541 --> 00:05:30.830 organizers of the Adelaide festival of ideas. 79 00:05:31.340 --> 00:05:32.173 Thank you. 80 00:05:41.570 --> 00:05:46.460 [inaudible] I'd like to thank very deeply the extraordinary 81 00:05:46.461 --> 00:05:51.290 staff and volunteers that have made this possible. 82 00:05:51.440 --> 00:05:53.570 Thank you, beautiful people. You know who you are. Now to 83 00:06:01.630 --> 00:06:03.520 just set things rolling. 84 00:06:04.120 --> 00:06:09.070 One of the most powerful and extraordinary voices in Australia who will bring us 85 00:06:09.250 --> 00:06:13.900 sharply into the local context of these issues is a woman who's 86 00:06:13.901 --> 00:06:17.320 devoted her life to taking a, what could be obscure, 87 00:06:17.560 --> 00:06:22.270 scientific research and giving it to a large public in the 88 00:06:22.271 --> 00:06:25.060 most vital and beautiful manner possible. 89 00:06:25.420 --> 00:06:29.980 This translation process has made Mary White, a seminal figure in this country, 90 00:06:30.310 --> 00:06:33.010 and we are so grateful she's with us today. 91 00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:37.180 And we're so grateful that her voice is raised in this country. Mary, 92 00:06:37.181 --> 00:06:39.040 would you please begin our session? 93 00:06:48.340 --> 00:06:52.990 I'm just going to set the scene by reminding you all of what Australia is. 94 00:06:54.370 --> 00:06:59.050 And then why it is so dangerous that we still think like 95 00:06:59.051 --> 00:06:59.831 Europeans, 96 00:06:59.831 --> 00:07:04.270 instead of thinking like Australians when we're facing all the problems that we 97 00:07:04.271 --> 00:07:09.040 are facing, because we are the driest vegetated continent, 98 00:07:09.700 --> 00:07:11.770 70% arrowed, in fact, 99 00:07:11.771 --> 00:07:15.070 40% is desert 15%, 100 00:07:15.550 --> 00:07:20.200 not as acutely arid, but still pretty arid and subject to drafts. 101 00:07:20.201 --> 00:07:21.034 As you know, 102 00:07:21.070 --> 00:07:25.240 so only 15% of this continent is reasonably 103 00:07:25.241 --> 00:07:30.100 well-watered and everything is subject to 104 00:07:30.390 --> 00:07:33.820 an in. So the El Nino Southern oscillation, 105 00:07:35.320 --> 00:07:37.150 whether Walpole or whatever you like to call it, 106 00:07:37.151 --> 00:07:41.560 that means that we have the most unpredictable weather 107 00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:44.860 and our, a land of drought and flood, 108 00:07:44.890 --> 00:07:47.470 which makes it extraordinarily difficult to manage. 109 00:07:48.010 --> 00:07:52.510 Those are things that you've got to take on board originally, United nation, 110 00:07:52.520 --> 00:07:56.620 constantly warning that the arid lands of the world are desert are firing at a 111 00:07:56.621 --> 00:08:01.030 dangerous rate, and nobody's doing anything that is stopping that process. 112 00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:06.190 And the huge biodiversity loss that is particularly serious in the arid 113 00:08:06.191 --> 00:08:07.630 lands. And of course, 114 00:08:07.631 --> 00:08:11.500 Australia has a pretty poor record in that area, 115 00:08:12.610 --> 00:08:17.260 the extraordinary fragility of the arid lands of the world. 116 00:08:17.740 --> 00:08:20.410 And you only have to have, I've lived in the middle east. 117 00:08:20.710 --> 00:08:24.490 You only have to know what those lands of the middle east are like, 118 00:08:24.520 --> 00:08:27.910 and then see that they are in fact, manmade desserts. 119 00:08:27.911 --> 00:08:30.070 They didn't build the pyramids in a desert. 120 00:08:30.490 --> 00:08:34.300 They were built in a well-worded quite hospitable place. 121 00:08:34.570 --> 00:08:39.490 And the desert has simply encroached and Australia has got a great 122 00:08:39.491 --> 00:08:42.130 deal to learn by looking at what happened elsewhere. 123 00:08:43.480 --> 00:08:48.400 This continent is unique and we can't regulate it or manage it 124 00:08:48.610 --> 00:08:53.410 or even think about it in terms of what happens in other places. 125 00:08:54.070 --> 00:08:57.360 It's been an ancient land mass for so long, 126 00:08:58.380 --> 00:09:02.850 with no renewal of its soils by glaciation for 300 million years, 127 00:09:03.960 --> 00:09:05.640 very little vulcanism. 128 00:09:05.640 --> 00:09:09.990 So its soils are made from ancient weathered rocks and are 129 00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:14.550 inherently extremely poor in terms of agricultural soils. 130 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:20.580 And of course the Pleistocene ice age we're living in an integrase seal at 131 00:09:20.581 --> 00:09:23.160 the moment it has created, 132 00:09:23.220 --> 00:09:27.990 it has turned Australia from what was previously already a fairly dry 133 00:09:27.991 --> 00:09:30.540 land in the last 2.6 million. 134 00:09:30.541 --> 00:09:33.090 It has become the driest vegetated continent. 135 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:36.720 And at the last glacial stage for instances, 136 00:09:36.721 --> 00:09:41.700 land of ours was 80% virtually desert subject to blowing sand 137 00:09:42.030 --> 00:09:44.040 twice as dry, the whole continent, 138 00:09:44.100 --> 00:09:48.150 twice as dry as it is now and twice as windy. 139 00:09:48.210 --> 00:09:51.300 And if you can imagine what Australia was like a little cooler, 140 00:09:51.630 --> 00:09:55.860 but that horrendous sort of condition you realize that we've only had maybe 141 00:09:55.861 --> 00:10:00.480 16,000 years of recovery from something that was quite amazing 142 00:10:01.800 --> 00:10:06.540 and completely different from what happened in the Northern hemisphere as age 143 00:10:06.570 --> 00:10:11.040 for their mentor renewal of their soils by great ice sheets, 144 00:10:11.550 --> 00:10:16.530 grinding across the landscape, creating deep new fertile soils. 145 00:10:16.740 --> 00:10:18.510 And then when the ice retreated, 146 00:10:18.990 --> 00:10:23.850 the climatic patterns settled down and they have dependable climate 147 00:10:24.090 --> 00:10:28.650 spring, summer, autumn and winter, nothing like what we have here. 148 00:10:29.010 --> 00:10:33.960 We had an ancient bettered con continent to begin with ice age, 149 00:10:33.990 --> 00:10:36.540 just put the didn't, put the icing on the cake, 150 00:10:36.541 --> 00:10:41.250 but it put the drawing on the whole thing and a completely different history. 151 00:10:41.490 --> 00:10:46.410 And coming from the Northern hemisphere and settling in Australia and 152 00:10:46.411 --> 00:10:51.330 expecting the land use and water use and 153 00:10:51.331 --> 00:10:55.890 all the practices that were suited to Northern hemisphere lands to 154 00:10:56.250 --> 00:11:00.240 be suitable for our continent has been at the root of all our troubles. 155 00:11:00.241 --> 00:11:04.800 So my major thing is that we have to think like Australians because 156 00:11:04.801 --> 00:11:08.130 everything is different here. Even our rivers, I mean rivers, 157 00:11:08.131 --> 00:11:12.900 or to rise on high land and run briskly to the sea. 158 00:11:12.960 --> 00:11:16.710 Most of our rivers, except around the very edges of the continent, 159 00:11:16.711 --> 00:11:18.840 don't do that. They run inland. 160 00:11:18.870 --> 00:11:22.710 Some of them don't run anywhere in particular and a great number. Of course, 161 00:11:22.711 --> 00:11:26.490 don't run at all. They only are active at times of flood. 162 00:11:26.491 --> 00:11:29.520 So a river is not just a river. 163 00:11:29.670 --> 00:11:32.580 It's something with a very strange pattern of behavior. 164 00:11:33.180 --> 00:11:38.100 And we're only just beginning to understand what is needed to, 165 00:11:38.160 --> 00:11:39.990 to keep these things sustainable. 166 00:11:41.250 --> 00:11:45.780 We have the most variable flow river flow in our rivers of 167 00:11:45.781 --> 00:11:49.320 anywhere on earth. And of course that doesn't suit us. 168 00:11:49.470 --> 00:11:52.770 We've tried to regulate rivers so that we've got continuity of. 169 00:11:53.650 --> 00:11:56.920 And by doing that, we are essentially killing the rivers. 170 00:11:57.220 --> 00:12:00.760 They need the very variability. That's not much use to us. 171 00:12:00.910 --> 00:12:05.590 And we complain endlessly when floods occur on floodplains, 172 00:12:05.860 --> 00:12:10.750 not realizing that floodplains are essential parts of river systems as 173 00:12:10.751 --> 00:12:15.400 essential as the channels and banks. So we have major major problems. 174 00:12:15.880 --> 00:12:20.620 And with only 15% of the continent reasonably well-watered 175 00:12:22.330 --> 00:12:26.860 the use of water in very large quantities for things like 176 00:12:28.060 --> 00:12:32.920 dark irrigation in particular, and being part of the globalization movement. 177 00:12:33.130 --> 00:12:37.840 We heard that amazing talk yesterday from the lady on the 178 00:12:37.900 --> 00:12:39.220 platform here with me, 179 00:12:39.250 --> 00:12:44.050 Dr. Shiva talking about the absolute madness that the world is 180 00:12:44.110 --> 00:12:45.310 undergoing at the moment, 181 00:12:45.311 --> 00:12:50.230 a sort of global insanity with the sort of agriculture that 182 00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:51.273 we're practicing, 183 00:12:51.910 --> 00:12:55.960 being completely incompatible with the landscapes as often as not. 184 00:12:56.800 --> 00:12:59.350 And the fact that we are in Australia, 185 00:12:59.351 --> 00:13:03.820 we consider ourselves an agricultural nation in spite of the nature of our soils 186 00:13:03.821 --> 00:13:05.110 and our water suppliers. 187 00:13:05.470 --> 00:13:09.910 We are feeding 80 million people without exports, 188 00:13:12.100 --> 00:13:14.230 20 million in Australia, too, for that matter. 189 00:13:14.231 --> 00:13:18.310 But an awful lot of the stuff we feed the Australians is imported or part of 190 00:13:18.311 --> 00:13:22.300 that, that madness that we heard about so eloquently yesterday, 191 00:13:23.820 --> 00:13:27.960 and we are doing it by mail mining, our soul soil, 192 00:13:27.961 --> 00:13:32.130 and water resources, upsetting the hydrology in our food, 193 00:13:32.160 --> 00:13:34.440 only couple of food basket areas, 194 00:13:34.441 --> 00:13:39.060 the Murray basin and the west Australian wheat belt losing great 195 00:13:39.090 --> 00:13:40.890 stretches of those areas. 196 00:13:41.070 --> 00:13:45.960 Great proportion of those areas to salinity and rising water tables and all 197 00:13:45.961 --> 00:13:49.560 those sorts of problems. There are solutions, 198 00:13:49.561 --> 00:13:53.580 but they're not the sort of solutions that governments are likely to take until 199 00:13:53.760 --> 00:13:57.330 we've actually gone over the edge of the precipice that we're sitting on the job 200 00:13:57.360 --> 00:14:01.350 now. And we are in a moment, 201 00:14:01.680 --> 00:14:03.810 so unusual situation in Australia, 202 00:14:03.811 --> 00:14:08.790 we still can make decisions and decide what 203 00:14:08.791 --> 00:14:09.511 we want to do. 204 00:14:09.511 --> 00:14:13.980 We don't have the enormous population pressures that other lands have that keep 205 00:14:13.981 --> 00:14:16.740 them locked into only attending to people. 206 00:14:16.920 --> 00:14:21.150 We have the luxury of being able to think a little about biodiversity and the 207 00:14:21.151 --> 00:14:22.320 things that really matter. 208 00:14:22.830 --> 00:14:27.150 And if we restructure and practice what I would call sustainable 209 00:14:27.151 --> 00:14:31.980 intensification using the reasonably sustainable areas for a 210 00:14:31.981 --> 00:14:34.680 much wiser sort of agriculture, 211 00:14:35.220 --> 00:14:39.870 getting rid of the huge businesses that are now 212 00:14:39.900 --> 00:14:44.610 running things and realizing that we cannot go on 213 00:14:44.880 --> 00:14:47.340 trying to be in the global, 214 00:14:47.790 --> 00:14:50.730 in the globalization business and producing cotton. 215 00:14:50.731 --> 00:14:55.280 And if the next generation is going to have just about nothing to inherit from 216 00:14:55.281 --> 00:14:59.630 us. So I asked for a complete change in attitudes, 217 00:15:00.020 --> 00:15:02.630 in expectations, and for God's sake, 218 00:15:02.631 --> 00:15:06.290 let's try and get the people who have the power to do things, 219 00:15:06.291 --> 00:15:09.920 to listen to the fact that we don't want to hand 220 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:15.800 thoroughly deserve to fad land onto the next generation. Thank you. 221 00:15:27.130 --> 00:15:30.850 Thank you, Mary. That was extraordinary. Thank you very much. Okay. 222 00:15:30.910 --> 00:15:35.590 Just to get another sharp picture of reality we have from the us 223 00:15:35.591 --> 00:15:36.700 geological survey, 224 00:15:37.420 --> 00:15:41.950 the extraordinary hydrologist Warren Wood who will also 225 00:15:42.700 --> 00:15:43.241 carry on, 226 00:15:43.241 --> 00:15:48.160 I think from where Mary left off and paint even a larger picture of 227 00:15:48.190 --> 00:15:53.110 where this is as a global phenomenon carrying on from recognizing where we 228 00:15:53.111 --> 00:15:55.750 are here in our store here in Australia, Warren. 229 00:16:02.020 --> 00:16:06.370 Thank you, Peter. I really would like to expand what in one way, 230 00:16:06.371 --> 00:16:07.570 focus in another way, 231 00:16:07.571 --> 00:16:12.250 expand on Mary's initial comments as a hydrologist, 232 00:16:12.251 --> 00:16:17.200 my thoughts center around the physical resources and the the risk of 233 00:16:17.201 --> 00:16:20.260 inducing great sleep at this time of the afternoon. 234 00:16:20.261 --> 00:16:22.750 I would like you to bear with me for a few minutes. 235 00:16:22.751 --> 00:16:26.560 As I lay out what I think are some kind of fundamentals. 236 00:16:26.561 --> 00:16:30.680 And then we can speculate a little bit about the questions relating to our, 237 00:16:30.700 --> 00:16:31.990 the title of our talk. 238 00:16:32.530 --> 00:16:37.390 But first we know that the present population of the 239 00:16:37.391 --> 00:16:39.220 earth is 6 billion people, 240 00:16:39.460 --> 00:16:44.230 and it's a reliably predicted that it'll reach 12 billion in a hundred years. 241 00:16:44.710 --> 00:16:49.360 We know that the presently one person in five on 242 00:16:49.390 --> 00:16:52.570 earth does not have sanitary drinking water. 243 00:16:52.780 --> 00:16:57.400 And that one half of the population has grossly inadequate sewage 244 00:16:57.401 --> 00:16:58.234 disposal. 245 00:16:58.960 --> 00:17:03.550 We know that approximately 3 million people 246 00:17:03.580 --> 00:17:07.750 currently die each year from waterborne diseases. 247 00:17:08.620 --> 00:17:11.740 We know that at any given moment, 248 00:17:11.830 --> 00:17:16.570 approximately one half of the people in the developing world are suffering from 249 00:17:16.571 --> 00:17:20.140 disease caused by drinking contaminated water, 250 00:17:20.200 --> 00:17:25.060 eating food contaminated by sewage or from insects breeding and manmade 251 00:17:25.390 --> 00:17:26.650 water structures. 252 00:17:27.460 --> 00:17:32.350 We know that all of the fresh water has been identified and that we 253 00:17:32.351 --> 00:17:37.120 have approximately 40,000 cubic kilometers of fresh water renewed each 254 00:17:37.121 --> 00:17:39.130 year in our global water. Well, 255 00:17:40.150 --> 00:17:44.950 we know that global warming is occurring and it will change our 256 00:17:44.951 --> 00:17:47.260 existing estimates of available water. 257 00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:53.340 We know about 70% of the world's water is used for 258 00:17:53.610 --> 00:17:54.140 irrigate [inaudible]. We know that 21 259 00:17:54.140 --> 00:17:54.973 of the world's population, the so-called developed nation use about 80% of the Earth's water, energy and minerals. 260 00:18:07.700 --> 00:18:08.533 And finally, 261 00:18:08.630 --> 00:18:13.520 we know that we have destroyed much of our aquatic habitat and biodiversity 262 00:18:13.880 --> 00:18:16.370 by using our rivers for sewage disposal, 263 00:18:16.371 --> 00:18:19.160 industrial waste and agricultural runoff. 264 00:18:20.300 --> 00:18:21.830 From my perspective, 265 00:18:21.860 --> 00:18:25.610 this knowledge constitutes a management and policy see crisis, 266 00:18:27.410 --> 00:18:31.670 this knowledge, how do we address the management of water resources? 267 00:18:32.570 --> 00:18:36.410 All of the fresh water in the world is allocated. As I've said, thus, 268 00:18:36.411 --> 00:18:40.100 if you give water for one use, you must take it from another. 269 00:18:40.940 --> 00:18:45.410 So water management in is conflict resolution between the 270 00:18:45.411 --> 00:18:50.060 interested stakeholders. Choices are not easy. For example, 271 00:18:50.061 --> 00:18:50.930 in Australia, 272 00:18:51.590 --> 00:18:55.520 we'd increase the flow in the Murray darling for the ecosystem maintenance. 273 00:18:55.730 --> 00:18:59.930 Yet you need to plant trees and reduce the white cancer of 274 00:18:59.931 --> 00:19:02.270 salinity. And the trees are sift, 275 00:19:02.271 --> 00:19:05.000 going to significantly reduce the flow in the Murray darling. 276 00:19:05.030 --> 00:19:08.900 So you have a mix which way do you go? How do you balance this? 277 00:19:09.950 --> 00:19:11.660 How do we address water management? 278 00:19:12.410 --> 00:19:17.000 The concept sustainability is one management model that has been proposed. 279 00:19:17.540 --> 00:19:19.940 Sustainability is on everyone's radar, 280 00:19:20.600 --> 00:19:25.160 it's in the daily papers and every environmental newsletter, the term, however, 281 00:19:25.161 --> 00:19:29.300 in my opinion is used loosely without careful thought. 282 00:19:29.750 --> 00:19:31.850 It means different things to different people. 283 00:19:32.390 --> 00:19:35.480 Instead of one picture being worth a thousand words, 284 00:19:35.720 --> 00:19:38.870 we have one word that is worth a thousand different images. 285 00:19:39.890 --> 00:19:44.060 Sustainability is a relatively new word, less than 30 years old. 286 00:19:44.120 --> 00:19:48.350 According to the Oxford English dictionary was first used in the early 19 seven 287 00:19:49.040 --> 00:19:53.300 to explain an economy that was unchanging in time in 288 00:19:54.380 --> 00:19:54.381 1987, 289 00:19:54.381 --> 00:19:58.820 the Brundtland commission of United nations popularize the term in a sense it is 290 00:19:58.821 --> 00:20:01.760 now used by managers of natural resources. 291 00:20:02.090 --> 00:20:07.010 This commission defines sustainability as the ability to meet the 292 00:20:07.011 --> 00:20:11.330 needs of the present generation without compromising the ability of future 293 00:20:11.331 --> 00:20:15.860 generations to meet their needs. In other words, don't use all the resource, 294 00:20:15.890 --> 00:20:20.750 save some for the future. While this may be a desirable, philosophical role, 295 00:20:20.870 --> 00:20:21.703 a goal, 296 00:20:21.770 --> 00:20:25.460 there are a number of bumps in the road when one attempts to implement it as a 297 00:20:25.461 --> 00:20:30.230 viable water policy, it does not address important management questions, 298 00:20:30.590 --> 00:20:33.110 such as sustainability at what level, 299 00:20:33.530 --> 00:20:37.760 sustainability for whom sustainability and what time timeframe 300 00:20:38.420 --> 00:20:43.070 sustaining sustainability using what economic model nor 301 00:20:43.280 --> 00:20:47.410 does sustainability address the distribution of resource amongst the competing 302 00:20:47.411 --> 00:20:48.244 factions. 303 00:20:48.910 --> 00:20:53.650 A more fundamental problem with sustainability is the logic population 304 00:20:53.651 --> 00:20:55.090 growth is exponential, 305 00:20:55.300 --> 00:20:58.540 like multiplying rabbits that you're so familiar with in Australia, 306 00:20:59.290 --> 00:21:02.800 and yet the resources are finite. Thus at some point, 307 00:21:02.801 --> 00:21:06.220 the demand must outstrip the resource supply. 308 00:21:06.770 --> 00:21:11.050 It is the classic no fusion argument in the past new land, 309 00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:16.060 new water resources and new technology have saved humanity from starvation 310 00:21:16.061 --> 00:21:20.830 predicted by this argument, we have no more new land. In fact, 311 00:21:20.920 --> 00:21:22.000 as Mary alluded to, 312 00:21:22.001 --> 00:21:26.290 we are losing tens of thousands of hectares each year to the white cancer of 313 00:21:27.040 --> 00:21:29.290 salinity and erosion of our wonderful top soil. 314 00:21:29.830 --> 00:21:34.210 We have no water that has not been allocated. And from a technical standpoint, 315 00:21:34.300 --> 00:21:37.120 we are constrained by the laws of thermodynamics. 316 00:21:37.990 --> 00:21:42.550 Sustainability is like most resorts management philosophy is a 317 00:21:42.551 --> 00:21:44.500 wealth distribution philosophy. 318 00:21:44.980 --> 00:21:49.390 Remember I said earlier that 20% of the population use 319 00:21:49.391 --> 00:21:51.130 80% of the resources. 320 00:21:51.490 --> 00:21:55.810 It should be no surprise to you that most of the 20% is white. 321 00:21:56.410 --> 00:22:00.580 Who are we to tell the rest of the world that we've got hours and you can't have 322 00:22:00.581 --> 00:22:04.510 any more because more use is not sustainable. In my opinion, 323 00:22:04.511 --> 00:22:07.540 the policy is racist in nature and less. 324 00:22:07.570 --> 00:22:10.270 The developed nations want to reduce their lifestyle. 325 00:22:10.750 --> 00:22:15.430 This response seems unlikely as most people are unwilling to voluntarily reduce 326 00:22:15.460 --> 00:22:16.690 their standard of living. 327 00:22:18.130 --> 00:22:22.990 We must recast sustainability in terms of renewability think 328 00:22:22.991 --> 00:22:27.940 of the 40,000 cubic kilometers of fresh water as we receive each year as 329 00:22:27.941 --> 00:22:31.510 renewability. So get away from the sustainability concept. 330 00:22:32.560 --> 00:22:35.380 If sustainability is not a viable policy, 331 00:22:35.381 --> 00:22:38.980 as I claim that there are some problems, what are some of the alternatives? 332 00:22:39.910 --> 00:22:40.690 First, 333 00:22:40.690 --> 00:22:45.340 we need an international debate on our failed 13,000 year old 334 00:22:45.341 --> 00:22:49.480 paradigm of using the world's rivers as conduits for domestic sewage, 335 00:22:49.510 --> 00:22:53.440 industrial waste and agricultural runoff. Second, 336 00:22:53.650 --> 00:22:58.540 we need a serious debate about global population to a size that will known 337 00:22:58.541 --> 00:23:02.710 to fit the known existing resources. Third, we needed a bait, 338 00:23:02.770 --> 00:23:07.300 the concept that topography soil and climate determined the choice of crops 339 00:23:07.330 --> 00:23:09.520 rather than historical prejudice. 340 00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:15.220 These debates must have necessarily start at the grassroots as most politicians 341 00:23:15.250 --> 00:23:16.930 follow and do not lead. 342 00:23:17.320 --> 00:23:22.060 Maybe it'll take a crystallizing book or event to get serious thought much like 343 00:23:22.300 --> 00:23:26.650 the silent spring, the book silent spring by Rachel Carson did in the early, 344 00:23:27.010 --> 00:23:31.900 late fifties and early sixties in our form of government only sex 345 00:23:31.901 --> 00:23:35.350 sandals seem to get the politicians' attention. Thank you. 346 00:23:47.620 --> 00:23:49.540 Well, that was stunning. Thank you, Warren. 347 00:23:49.541 --> 00:23:54.310 It's telling it like it is Warren's point of course is about 348 00:23:54.370 --> 00:23:59.210 a very comfortable group of people who are primarily Caucasians 349 00:23:59.211 --> 00:24:03.880 speaking to the rest of the world as if Caucasians are the majority of the 350 00:24:03.881 --> 00:24:06.190 world's population, simply because of their, 351 00:24:06.550 --> 00:24:08.860 they represent the majority of the world's banking systems. 352 00:24:09.400 --> 00:24:13.840 And obviously that's a very, not a reality. 353 00:24:13.870 --> 00:24:14.703 In fact, 354 00:24:15.040 --> 00:24:18.430 it's a minority community that keeps speaking on behalf of the rest of the 355 00:24:18.431 --> 00:24:19.264 world. 356 00:24:20.560 --> 00:24:24.280 Dr. Vandana Shiva has been one of the most extraordinary voices 357 00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:29.590 speaking against bio piracy for bioethics in 358 00:24:29.591 --> 00:24:32.680 terms of the complication of food distribution, 359 00:24:32.950 --> 00:24:36.940 in terms of a more equitable series of possibilities. 360 00:24:38.320 --> 00:24:43.030 Her voice has international Australians will recall her best as the only 361 00:24:43.031 --> 00:24:45.430 person inside the casino in Melbourne last year, 362 00:24:45.431 --> 00:24:48.430 who could speak to the people outside. Dr. Shiva. 363 00:24:58.810 --> 00:25:00.390 [Inaudible] thank you, Peter. 364 00:25:00.520 --> 00:25:04.810 And thank you Australia for that compliment of receiving me. 365 00:25:05.650 --> 00:25:08.690 As one of you, you 366 00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:10.900 know, 367 00:25:10.900 --> 00:25:15.820 when I think of the 40,000 cubic kilometers that Warren just talked about 368 00:25:16.120 --> 00:25:16.953 as available, 369 00:25:18.730 --> 00:25:21.490 not the 113,000 cubic kilometers, 370 00:25:21.491 --> 00:25:24.340 that's coming as precipitation petition 371 00:25:26.350 --> 00:25:27.183 to the earth. 372 00:25:28.180 --> 00:25:32.650 And then I think of the fact that the majority of water supply 373 00:25:32.980 --> 00:25:37.750 even today in most parts of the world is a woman with a pot on her 374 00:25:37.751 --> 00:25:42.010 head walking 10 miles. There's a limit to how much you can carry 375 00:25:44.620 --> 00:25:49.480 just by the fact that water supply is literally subsidized by women's 376 00:25:49.481 --> 00:25:50.320 energy. 377 00:25:51.250 --> 00:25:54.610 There is a huge limit put to the, 378 00:25:55.360 --> 00:26:00.130 on the use of the large numbers who don't have access to 379 00:26:00.131 --> 00:26:00.964 water. 380 00:26:01.870 --> 00:26:06.250 So I really don't think the problem is the numbers on the planet 381 00:26:06.700 --> 00:26:09.790 at all. The problem really is they're getting too little 382 00:26:11.770 --> 00:26:13.630 and we need better water justice. 383 00:26:15.040 --> 00:26:18.490 If there is scarcity and there is scarcity, 384 00:26:18.940 --> 00:26:22.240 not because water can disappear that much, 385 00:26:22.750 --> 00:26:27.430 113 cubic kilometers will keep recycling. It's not a fixed resource. 386 00:26:27.431 --> 00:26:31.000 I don't think it's a fixed resource. It's a beautiful, renewable resource. 387 00:26:31.001 --> 00:26:33.160 We've just messed up the renewability systems. 388 00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:36.670 And in messing up the renewability systems, 389 00:26:36.850 --> 00:26:40.180 two things are happening too much of it is not available 390 00:26:41.830 --> 00:26:46.760 for human use because having to our water catchments 391 00:26:46.761 --> 00:26:50.510 by mining and deforestation, the moment a drop of rain falls, 392 00:26:50.511 --> 00:26:54.740 it rushes off doesn't seep through doesn't recharge aquifers, 393 00:26:54.741 --> 00:26:57.260 doesn't recharge our Springs and streams. 394 00:26:57.800 --> 00:27:01.040 So we get the double problem of floods and drought, 395 00:27:01.041 --> 00:27:04.790 especially in the monsoon kind of climate that we have in south Asia. 396 00:27:06.830 --> 00:27:08.990 And the second we enrich, 397 00:27:09.550 --> 00:27:13.730 we have started to mess up the water is turned abundant supplies into 398 00:27:13.731 --> 00:27:15.650 non-available supplies by pollution. 399 00:27:16.160 --> 00:27:19.400 I've seen river after river of sacred India. 400 00:27:20.240 --> 00:27:24.290 Every one of these was the sacred river. One by one. 401 00:27:24.380 --> 00:27:26.000 Each of them has been killed. 402 00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:29.860 I work in Bangalore in the early eighties, 403 00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:31.820 and we spent a lot of time trying to save the tongue. 404 00:27:32.350 --> 00:27:37.030 [inaudible] We're one bulk factory drop the life of the river and the 405 00:27:37.031 --> 00:27:38.170 millions who depend on it. 406 00:27:38.710 --> 00:27:43.570 It just needs one polluting activity along the river to make 407 00:27:43.571 --> 00:27:47.230 that amazing abundance disappear into scarcity. 408 00:27:47.950 --> 00:27:52.840 So scarcity and and abundance are not, 409 00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:57.760 are not physical constructions, physical, 410 00:27:59.080 --> 00:28:03.940 the very much determined by culture then determined by our production systems. 411 00:28:04.270 --> 00:28:08.860 They are determined by our paradigms of how we view the world. 412 00:28:09.280 --> 00:28:13.150 And I think part of our paradigm that's gone wrong is it has been cut easy in 413 00:28:13.750 --> 00:28:18.100 the fractured resources into just rocks, just timber, 414 00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:23.050 just meat, just a bit of canned vegetable. 415 00:28:24.930 --> 00:28:27.180 And because water was abandoned, 416 00:28:27.810 --> 00:28:32.790 every bit of the development paradigm of industrialization has a zoom that you 417 00:28:32.791 --> 00:28:35.760 can Bayswater as long as you save something somewhere else. 418 00:28:35.940 --> 00:28:38.820 And the one thing they'd been desperate to save is human energy, 419 00:28:38.821 --> 00:28:41.070 but just so in such a button and supply. 420 00:28:42.060 --> 00:28:46.050 And I think the one thing we need to shift is stop measuring productivity in 421 00:28:46.051 --> 00:28:48.870 terms of per capita efficiency, 422 00:28:48.871 --> 00:28:53.460 because it's basically a way of getting rid of people from gainful livelihoods, 423 00:28:54.270 --> 00:28:57.510 and instead have just one indicator for development. 424 00:28:57.660 --> 00:29:00.870 How much water did you use if you use water efficiently, 425 00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:04.620 then you're more productive. If you wasted it, 426 00:29:05.730 --> 00:29:06.570 you are inefficient. 427 00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:10.980 Now just look at the way we have managed to wastewater. 428 00:29:11.700 --> 00:29:13.530 Everyone's being told to grow vegetables, 429 00:29:13.531 --> 00:29:16.860 especially the third world is being told, not to Google grow greens anymore, 430 00:29:17.040 --> 00:29:20.850 but just grow vegetables for export. And I was reading some figures. 431 00:29:21.360 --> 00:29:24.120 It takes 17,000 gallons, 432 00:29:24.390 --> 00:29:29.220 but tongue to back green beans for export because you 433 00:29:29.580 --> 00:29:32.910 can't really be, you know, I mean they do of course ship them around to one, 434 00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:37.380 right? But by and large, to make it accessible, 435 00:29:38.430 --> 00:29:41.950 you know, you've got to start counting your peaches and pears beans. 436 00:29:42.310 --> 00:29:44.290 And every bit of that is Hughes. 437 00:29:44.650 --> 00:29:49.420 You using amounts of water that are never part 438 00:29:49.450 --> 00:29:53.140 of the consumption awareness. At the end of the chain yesterday, 439 00:29:53.141 --> 00:29:57.220 we were told in a panel here, I think it was you wore. And when you talked about 440 00:30:00.210 --> 00:30:03.000 tons behind every ton of meat exported, 441 00:30:03.300 --> 00:30:07.350 10,000 tons of water in every ton of meat exported from Austria. 442 00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:16.320 So we paradigm shift that tells that reminds us that rocks our water, 443 00:30:16.740 --> 00:30:19.200 our forests are the best natural dams. 444 00:30:20.490 --> 00:30:23.940 And even the food we eat is actually embodied water. 445 00:30:26.340 --> 00:30:28.610 We were told, I remember the beginning of the ticket, 446 00:30:28.611 --> 00:30:32.180 this lovely word de materialization, we're moving into the information age. 447 00:30:32.181 --> 00:30:34.040 Therefore we'll have no pressure on resources. 448 00:30:34.220 --> 00:30:38.000 Look at the figures for making Silicon chips. 449 00:30:39.170 --> 00:30:41.210 It takes for a six inch wafer, 450 00:30:41.450 --> 00:30:46.370 2000 gallons of deionized water and lots 451 00:30:46.790 --> 00:30:48.710 of chemicals, which then go to pollution, 452 00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:52.370 a plant making 2000 wafer 453 00:30:57.680 --> 00:31:01.880 4.5 million gallons a week of water. 454 00:31:03.110 --> 00:31:08.030 And that is 23 billion gallons a 455 00:31:08.031 --> 00:31:11.900 year behind those chips in our computers. 456 00:31:11.930 --> 00:31:16.130 We do not yet have the awareness of the embodied water. 457 00:31:16.540 --> 00:31:16.991 In fact, 458 00:31:16.991 --> 00:31:21.730 most conflicts in the U S at this point are around the 459 00:31:21.731 --> 00:31:24.820 huge use of water by the high-tech industry. 460 00:31:26.530 --> 00:31:30.120 I think the second paradigm shift we need besides recognizing the, 461 00:31:30.490 --> 00:31:32.290 the water that's been made invisible. 462 00:31:32.620 --> 00:31:34.720 And I'll give you just a very quick example. 463 00:31:35.020 --> 00:31:39.940 I worked on the state of Maharaj when the drought became so perrenial and 464 00:31:39.941 --> 00:31:43.630 permanent, that every village was having to get water through tankers. 465 00:31:43.870 --> 00:31:45.760 Fossil fuel was delivering our water. 466 00:31:47.290 --> 00:31:50.530 And I went in to look at why was this permanent scarcity created, 467 00:31:50.770 --> 00:31:52.870 turns out the world bank in the seventies, 468 00:31:52.900 --> 00:31:57.850 insisted that the state move out of growing millets that require 400 millimeters 469 00:31:58.030 --> 00:32:00.700 into growing sugarcane, because it has higher value, 470 00:32:01.780 --> 00:32:05.950 which requires 1,200 millimeters in an area where there was only 471 00:32:05.951 --> 00:32:08.860 six millimeters of recharge into the ground. 472 00:32:10.510 --> 00:32:14.230 Those are standard straightforward recipes of creating a water famine. 473 00:32:15.340 --> 00:32:17.620 I think the second major shift we do need, 474 00:32:17.650 --> 00:32:20.980 given that we are now being told the solution really is 475 00:32:22.390 --> 00:32:26.830 privatization and marketization of water. And there's a book on water markets, 476 00:32:26.831 --> 00:32:30.460 which is the big question for water is where the Adam Smith's invisible hand 477 00:32:30.580 --> 00:32:31.810 will be unshackled. 478 00:32:32.320 --> 00:32:37.270 And if and reliance of markets will increase the supply of 479 00:32:37.271 --> 00:32:39.050 water through trade, oh, 480 00:32:39.051 --> 00:32:43.400 the one thing the hydrological cycle tells us is you can't increase the supply. 481 00:32:43.401 --> 00:32:47.690 You can just move it around. You can move it from rural areas to cities, 482 00:32:47.840 --> 00:32:52.280 from agriculture to the high tech industry, but you can't increase the supply. 483 00:32:54.080 --> 00:32:57.740 And that's the part of the problem that the building created, 484 00:32:57.830 --> 00:32:58.581 where it was assumed. 485 00:32:58.581 --> 00:33:02.060 I remember the phrase they would use for making dams was always augmenting 486 00:33:02.061 --> 00:33:05.810 water. Somehow you will creationist always. 487 00:33:06.140 --> 00:33:08.150 And I think that's the other paradigm shift we need. 488 00:33:08.300 --> 00:33:10.400 It's high time to leave creation to creation 489 00:33:19.220 --> 00:33:22.340 with this dominant paradigm. It just the ruling paradigm, 490 00:33:22.341 --> 00:33:25.460 the idea that water is a commodity just sell. It will somehow increase. 491 00:33:25.461 --> 00:33:28.700 Scarcity will go away. You don't have to worry about anything else. 492 00:33:30.470 --> 00:33:35.120 I think we do need to get back to categories. One, the category of the commons, 493 00:33:35.870 --> 00:33:37.490 this is our common responsibility. 494 00:33:37.850 --> 00:33:40.640 What is our common responsibility from the local level, 495 00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:44.300 all the way to the global level and at the local level, 496 00:33:44.301 --> 00:33:48.920 the beautiful thing about water is it has a habit of falling in a decentralized 497 00:33:48.921 --> 00:33:49.754 way. 498 00:33:51.470 --> 00:33:55.580 So the only way to really manage it with justice is through 499 00:33:56.270 --> 00:34:00.980 respecting every drop where it falls and make it available to the 500 00:34:00.981 --> 00:34:05.270 largest number of species and largest number of people for their vital needs. 501 00:34:06.770 --> 00:34:10.610 Part of what's happening in climate change was mentioned both by Marianne, 502 00:34:10.640 --> 00:34:15.560 by Warren is the fact that even though there's lots of debates 503 00:34:15.561 --> 00:34:18.680 about what it means, we do know it means climatic extremes. 504 00:34:18.710 --> 00:34:20.180 It does mean where there's drought, 505 00:34:20.181 --> 00:34:24.020 the drugs will get worse and where there are floods and cyclones they're going 506 00:34:24.021 --> 00:34:27.410 to get to us. And they already are. It means both ways. 507 00:34:27.411 --> 00:34:31.670 Climate change translates into a water crisis of either 508 00:34:31.730 --> 00:34:36.110 hurricanes and floods or average city and lack of water. 509 00:34:37.130 --> 00:34:41.300 And that's why sometimes think of Mr. Bush, not just as an atmospheric criminal, 510 00:34:41.480 --> 00:34:46.310 but a water criminal by basically saying he's going to satisfy the 511 00:34:46.340 --> 00:34:50.960 oil lobby and do nothing about the water ethics that all of us need to be. 512 00:34:50.990 --> 00:34:52.220 If we have to survive together. 513 00:35:08.870 --> 00:35:09.703 [inaudible]. 514 00:35:10.640 --> 00:35:15.230 Dr. Tim Flannery is a well-known and recent south Australian 515 00:35:16.160 --> 00:35:20.900 and most of us have a problem of barely being able to think five 516 00:35:20.901 --> 00:35:25.370 minutes ahead or in, in five minute you know units, 517 00:35:25.820 --> 00:35:26.601 Tim of course, 518 00:35:26.601 --> 00:35:30.860 is used to thinking his usual unit is a million or so years 519 00:35:31.340 --> 00:35:35.510 or several arrows or epochs. Tim has, 520 00:35:35.511 --> 00:35:38.940 of course as a who's worked, you know, 521 00:35:38.941 --> 00:35:43.080 across fields of science, anthropology, and biology. 522 00:35:44.580 --> 00:35:48.750 Tim brought out a book which then became a TV series quite 523 00:35:49.680 --> 00:35:53.430 supercharged called the future eaters, very intense title. 524 00:35:55.560 --> 00:36:00.030 Speaking about the impossibility of sustaining certain types of 525 00:36:00.031 --> 00:36:03.840 growth in Australia from 526 00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:09.450 Palin Tajik paleontological evidence and a whole range of 527 00:36:09.451 --> 00:36:10.560 speculations. 528 00:36:11.190 --> 00:36:15.270 Tim was one of the key voices in a rather 529 00:36:15.510 --> 00:36:20.070 sharp population debate that said that Australia must 530 00:36:20.071 --> 00:36:23.070 stop growing and close its borders. 531 00:36:23.100 --> 00:36:27.300 That of course turned into an extraordinary immigration saga that we find 532 00:36:27.301 --> 00:36:31.350 ourselves still in em, immeshed in Tim, 533 00:36:31.351 --> 00:36:35.520 would you please step up and into the next paradigm shift? 534 00:36:42.850 --> 00:36:44.530 Thank you very much, Peter. 535 00:36:45.370 --> 00:36:48.940 I probably would have added my voice to the, 536 00:36:49.390 --> 00:36:51.520 to the chorus of doom that we've heard this evening. 537 00:36:51.880 --> 00:36:55.000 If if others hadn't done it so very, very well 538 00:36:56.650 --> 00:36:57.820 we've heard from Peter, 539 00:36:59.560 --> 00:37:01.780 the sense that there's time, 540 00:37:01.781 --> 00:37:05.290 some of us got off the boat that there's too many of us on the planet, 541 00:37:05.770 --> 00:37:10.150 and that perhaps the time has come for us to decide who amongst us will be. 542 00:37:10.151 --> 00:37:14.080 That will be no more it's a frightening thought, 543 00:37:14.110 --> 00:37:18.910 but it is the thought that our species has lived with as a reality of life 544 00:37:18.911 --> 00:37:22.330 daily reality of life for most of the 300,000 years that we've been in 545 00:37:22.331 --> 00:37:26.320 existence. And it's mostly been women that have been making those choices. 546 00:37:26.680 --> 00:37:30.910 People have been self-limiting in terms of their population in almost every 547 00:37:30.911 --> 00:37:35.140 culture that I think I can think of except that of 548 00:37:35.980 --> 00:37:40.870 the contemporary culture that we now live in, in the 19th and 20th centuries. 549 00:37:41.560 --> 00:37:45.550 And that's self limiting capacity was often done 550 00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:50.530 for the very reason that people knew there was insufficient resources either at 551 00:37:50.531 --> 00:37:54.820 the immediate time or at some time in the future. And as you say, Peter, 552 00:37:54.821 --> 00:37:58.660 it's been the young and the old those at the ends of the spectrum that have been 553 00:37:58.661 --> 00:38:00.520 asked to get off the bus most frequently. 554 00:38:02.530 --> 00:38:07.360 And the way we've escaped from that horror that evolution has imposed 555 00:38:07.361 --> 00:38:12.040 upon us is by borrowing from the future we've borrowed resources that future 556 00:38:12.041 --> 00:38:17.020 generations will need by developing unsustainable means of creating 557 00:38:17.021 --> 00:38:21.640 a surplus. And that has allowed us to fuel population growth that has otherwise, 558 00:38:21.641 --> 00:38:24.670 and certainly no long-term is entirely unsustainable. 559 00:38:24.850 --> 00:38:28.060 So I think that your questionnaire Peter is shocking as it may have, 560 00:38:28.660 --> 00:38:33.310 may have appeared to the audience is one that we, 561 00:38:34.300 --> 00:38:37.420 we can see being a return to normalcy. If you want, 562 00:38:37.810 --> 00:38:41.170 it may not be desirable. We may not want to do it, 563 00:38:41.171 --> 00:38:43.840 and we may be able to find another way around it. 564 00:38:44.710 --> 00:38:48.780 But if we continue as we are, choice will be taken out of our hands. 565 00:38:48.781 --> 00:38:51.240 It won't be asked that we'll be asking, who's going to get off the bus. 566 00:38:51.241 --> 00:38:56.070 It'll be nature herself who will decide that there's just too many of us and in 567 00:38:56.071 --> 00:38:58.350 her own inimical and ruthless way, 568 00:38:58.590 --> 00:39:01.080 we'll make the decisions about our future. 569 00:39:01.800 --> 00:39:05.820 So I think it is a very serious question that you've raised there, 570 00:39:05.821 --> 00:39:08.400 which has been very amply backed, 571 00:39:08.401 --> 00:39:12.690 I think by Mary and Warren and Shiva and others about how this, 572 00:39:13.530 --> 00:39:17.820 the situation you see simply unsustainable environmentally, 573 00:39:18.420 --> 00:39:21.060 the one person I would love to have seen here tonight though, 574 00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:23.970 was Malcolm Fraser who was built to be here, 575 00:39:25.200 --> 00:39:27.960 who represents a very different view. 576 00:39:27.961 --> 00:39:31.230 And one that I don't think we can walk away from this room this evening, 577 00:39:31.231 --> 00:39:34.110 without considering as much as I violently disagree with him. 578 00:39:34.590 --> 00:39:38.610 Malcolm Fraser's view is much more mainline in Australian society than my own. 579 00:39:39.060 --> 00:39:44.010 And I think it's worth just considering briefly what he would have said tonight. 580 00:39:44.220 --> 00:39:48.600 Malcolm Prizer would have almost certainly said that this continent, 581 00:39:48.690 --> 00:39:51.330 it was capable of sustaining many, many millions of people, 582 00:39:51.390 --> 00:39:52.770 perhaps 50 million people, 583 00:39:55.290 --> 00:39:59.130 and that we should be having a much enlarged refugee, 584 00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:01.230 the program and immigration program as a whole, 585 00:40:01.231 --> 00:40:03.540 but certainly a refugee program as well. 586 00:40:03.840 --> 00:40:06.000 And I think that that's a very admirable thing, 587 00:40:07.200 --> 00:40:11.040 but it's worth us very carefully asking 588 00:40:11.610 --> 00:40:12.540 how, 589 00:40:12.780 --> 00:40:17.760 what the size of the population for our nation is and what 590 00:40:17.761 --> 00:40:20.190 the costs are of overrunning that in the short term, 591 00:40:20.191 --> 00:40:22.020 to meet some other aspects of common good, 592 00:40:22.021 --> 00:40:25.650 because that's one thing we may want to look at. We may decide as Australians, 593 00:40:25.651 --> 00:40:28.410 that we will have 50 million people in this continent, 594 00:40:28.740 --> 00:40:32.880 but I hope we do it with the understanding that that's an unsustainable figure, 595 00:40:32.970 --> 00:40:37.560 given current technology and use of resources and that we work very hard to 596 00:40:37.561 --> 00:40:41.160 bring things back into balance because in the longterm mother nature out there 597 00:40:41.340 --> 00:40:44.880 is out there. She's an old lady with very bad habits and she carries a very, 598 00:40:44.881 --> 00:40:45.720 very big stick. 599 00:40:46.200 --> 00:40:50.640 And if we don't do anything to make sure that we don't get in the way she will 600 00:40:50.730 --> 00:40:51.990 fix things up gas, 601 00:40:52.350 --> 00:40:56.190 but the thing that's interested me most about Malcolm Fraser's view over the 602 00:40:56.191 --> 00:40:58.710 years is that he fully very powerful Australian. 603 00:40:58.711 --> 00:41:01.410 He was prime minister for a number of years, 604 00:41:01.830 --> 00:41:06.570 and he lived for a long time on a volcano in the richest 605 00:41:06.780 --> 00:41:09.540 and most seasonal, the reliable part of Australia. 606 00:41:09.600 --> 00:41:13.620 And when he looked around from Noreen at his flocks of sheep in the land, 607 00:41:13.621 --> 00:41:16.530 that knows no drought, the only part of Australia that really does, 608 00:41:16.890 --> 00:41:19.440 and the rivers that flow through the year, 609 00:41:20.490 --> 00:41:25.080 you can be forgiven for thinking that this country might be able to 610 00:41:25.081 --> 00:41:26.550 sustain 50 million people. 611 00:41:26.970 --> 00:41:31.800 If he'd gone up to visit his fellow farmers in the Mallee, however, 612 00:41:32.070 --> 00:41:33.740 he may have had a different view of things. 613 00:41:33.740 --> 00:41:35.210 And probably if he had a Mallee family, 614 00:41:35.211 --> 00:41:37.100 wouldn't have made it to the prime minister sheep, 615 00:41:38.120 --> 00:41:42.740 the place just isn't rich enough to sustain a squat ocracy and an influential 616 00:41:42.741 --> 00:41:46.390 power base in the longterm. People run through their resources out there very, 617 00:41:46.391 --> 00:41:50.440 very quick. But at these that the bite that we face now, as much as we, 618 00:41:51.460 --> 00:41:56.290 we may want to address these critical issues of sustainability, 619 00:41:57.970 --> 00:42:01.420 it is the impact on us that we're going to have to take into account. 620 00:42:01.660 --> 00:42:03.550 And the one, 621 00:42:03.790 --> 00:42:08.680 the first major issue will be effectively debating Malcolm Fraser's 622 00:42:08.681 --> 00:42:12.220 position. It probably is. Well, 623 00:42:12.221 --> 00:42:13.780 if not if not the majority, 624 00:42:13.781 --> 00:42:18.370 at least a very widespread view in Australian society. And I feel that for us, 625 00:42:18.371 --> 00:42:22.840 the first step forward to regaining some sense of control over this 626 00:42:22.841 --> 00:42:27.820 situation is a widespread debate among us all about how many of us they 627 00:42:27.821 --> 00:42:32.050 should be certainly debates also about technology 628 00:42:32.470 --> 00:42:34.180 levels of resource utilization, 629 00:42:34.330 --> 00:42:36.610 but it's very difficult to Dodge that main question, 630 00:42:36.790 --> 00:42:40.150 the big question of how many of us they should be and how much more should we 631 00:42:40.151 --> 00:42:45.040 borrow from the future in order to give ourselves a soft landing in the medium 632 00:42:45.041 --> 00:42:49.450 term, beyond that, 633 00:42:49.690 --> 00:42:53.110 we can look at our society, particularly in Adelaide, 634 00:42:53.200 --> 00:42:57.340 as Peters said, that was a glorious introduction. Peter, who was splendid, 635 00:42:57.550 --> 00:42:59.980 you pointed to the crisis. 636 00:43:00.130 --> 00:43:04.810 So south Australia faces in terms of a very slowly growing and soon to be 637 00:43:04.811 --> 00:43:07.480 declining population CT, 638 00:43:07.481 --> 00:43:12.100 that's looking very at critical water use and water 639 00:43:12.130 --> 00:43:16.420 restrictions in the future. And yet look good to see you this evening. 640 00:43:16.840 --> 00:43:19.420 Do we consider ourselves poorer than other Australians? 641 00:43:19.421 --> 00:43:22.870 Just because we have an older society, one that's growing less rapidly, 642 00:43:23.560 --> 00:43:25.930 we are in a sense the future and your right to come here, 643 00:43:25.931 --> 00:43:27.610 to look at what the future may look like. 644 00:43:27.880 --> 00:43:31.360 And there is a very special obligation on us, I think, 645 00:43:31.930 --> 00:43:33.040 to S to lead the way, 646 00:43:33.310 --> 00:43:38.290 instead of being seen to be sort of a rust bucket off the side to 647 00:43:38.291 --> 00:43:39.340 actually say, no, no, 648 00:43:39.341 --> 00:43:42.910 this is the way the whole of the developed world going to look in the next 649 00:43:42.911 --> 00:43:47.080 century. The developed world is declining in terms of population. 650 00:43:47.290 --> 00:43:50.890 The developed world is struggling with issues of immigration and how much they 651 00:43:50.891 --> 00:43:52.720 should subsidize population growth. 652 00:43:52.900 --> 00:43:57.850 It will soon be S be struggling very hard with issues such as declining house 653 00:43:57.851 --> 00:44:01.870 prices and very minimal returns on superannuation. 654 00:44:02.020 --> 00:44:04.360 And we'll probably be hit with those things first, 655 00:44:04.361 --> 00:44:08.980 but they are the necessary payment back to the future to create 656 00:44:08.981 --> 00:44:09.820 sustainability. 657 00:44:09.821 --> 00:44:14.380 We've borrowed so much from the future to maintain an unrealistic level of 658 00:44:14.381 --> 00:44:16.120 growth that we, 659 00:44:16.240 --> 00:44:20.950 as a society will have to face those costs in order to pay back and the way we 660 00:44:20.951 --> 00:44:22.030 face them in a way we, 661 00:44:22.500 --> 00:44:27.030 we deal with those issues will enlarge pat determined a quality of life. We, we, 662 00:44:27.550 --> 00:44:28.990 we, we have in future. 663 00:44:29.170 --> 00:44:33.200 So it's with those thoughts really that I'd like to perhaps close and and, 664 00:44:33.201 --> 00:44:36.690 and hear from our other speakers about what the future might hold for us. 665 00:44:36.720 --> 00:44:37.553 Thank you. 666 00:44:46.610 --> 00:44:49.310 [Inaudible] Thank you very much. Of course. 667 00:44:50.030 --> 00:44:54.380 It's really quite intense that we're all coming out of, 668 00:44:54.410 --> 00:44:57.500 you know and I'm speaking as much as an American, but, you know, 669 00:44:57.501 --> 00:45:01.970 you've had your version here in Australia of a severely limited and 670 00:45:01.971 --> 00:45:06.230 limiting rather shocking period of economic rationalism of 671 00:45:06.620 --> 00:45:10.130 poverty mentality. Since that there limits, we have to cut this, 672 00:45:10.131 --> 00:45:13.730 we have to cut that where this is the era of that cut budget. 673 00:45:15.020 --> 00:45:18.980 South Australia had its big jolt of the failure of the state bank and image 674 00:45:18.981 --> 00:45:23.960 that, you know, not only is there nothing to go around, 675 00:45:24.650 --> 00:45:28.640 but it's going to stop going around whatever there is 676 00:45:30.080 --> 00:45:34.490 that sense that most human beings are born with innate 677 00:45:34.940 --> 00:45:39.710 sense of generosity. And the world around us tells us to silence. That 678 00:45:41.360 --> 00:45:46.280 creates a very profound internal crisis and struggle in each one of 679 00:45:46.281 --> 00:45:51.200 us and in this society that has grown colder and colder and has actually 680 00:45:51.201 --> 00:45:55.070 retreated from public space and has actually made, you know, 681 00:45:55.100 --> 00:45:59.750 any notion of public life turn into a cheap public relations 682 00:45:59.751 --> 00:46:00.584 scam. 683 00:46:02.360 --> 00:46:06.890 Most of us feel in some way violated, but don't know how to speak of it. 684 00:46:07.460 --> 00:46:11.600 It's in this context that the philosopher Raimond Gaita 685 00:46:11.660 --> 00:46:16.640 books have touched an extraordinary cord, and we were taught that, 686 00:46:16.790 --> 00:46:16.911 you know, 687 00:46:16.911 --> 00:46:20.060 philosophers aren't that important in our society because they're not good for 688 00:46:20.061 --> 00:46:20.894 business. 689 00:46:21.410 --> 00:46:26.270 And amazingly there's been a huge Poplar 690 00:46:26.300 --> 00:46:31.220 outpouring because people are looking for some way 691 00:46:31.221 --> 00:46:35.510 to resolve something that they're feeling inside with the world around him, 692 00:46:35.750 --> 00:46:36.583 around them. 693 00:46:37.040 --> 00:46:41.540 So I'd like to call on one of the most extraordinary philosophers. 694 00:46:42.230 --> 00:46:43.460 Raimond, would you please step up 695 00:46:51.950 --> 00:46:52.783 [inaudible]. 696 00:46:53.380 --> 00:46:57.460 Well, I, I hope philosophers. Aren't so good for business actually, but 697 00:46:59.170 --> 00:47:00.003 one of the things that 698 00:47:01.870 --> 00:47:05.710 sort of pleases me about a philosophy being a philosophy is I usually don't have 699 00:47:05.711 --> 00:47:10.270 to know too much. You don't have to know many facts anyway, 700 00:47:10.760 --> 00:47:11.650 so you can see, 701 00:47:11.950 --> 00:47:15.550 you'd probably understand why it might hit fields in a bit of a spin at the 702 00:47:15.551 --> 00:47:16.384 moment. 703 00:47:18.250 --> 00:47:22.780 And the and I, I know absolutely nothing about water. 704 00:47:22.810 --> 00:47:24.100 I have to tell you there's, 705 00:47:25.090 --> 00:47:28.540 but listening to what what's been said 706 00:47:29.860 --> 00:47:33.430 there are two things I I'd like to talk about very, very quickly. 707 00:47:35.170 --> 00:47:38.380 One is that well, it's something I felt when, 708 00:47:38.381 --> 00:47:43.300 when the ecological issues first became important to people 709 00:47:43.301 --> 00:47:44.170 in the sixties. 710 00:47:45.550 --> 00:47:50.290 And I had a sort of sense when people started really disliking one another and 711 00:47:50.890 --> 00:47:52.780 sort of saying nasty things about one another, 712 00:47:52.781 --> 00:47:57.670 because they would use color colored toilet paper. I thought, my God, 713 00:47:57.671 --> 00:48:00.460 is there an issue more ripe for fanaticism? 714 00:48:01.270 --> 00:48:04.600 Because after all you can say that's in one way or another, 715 00:48:04.630 --> 00:48:09.130 but colored toilet paper you use really has something to do with the 716 00:48:09.700 --> 00:48:12.850 destiny of humankind. I mean, there isn't a isn't, 717 00:48:12.851 --> 00:48:17.440 as it were a bigger and more important sort of cause, 718 00:48:17.441 --> 00:48:19.750 and to think about what will, 719 00:48:20.310 --> 00:48:25.240 what will promote and what will inhibit the survival of humankind on 720 00:48:25.241 --> 00:48:30.190 the planet. And so I've always been a little bit fearful, 721 00:48:30.220 --> 00:48:33.790 I have to say about, about, 722 00:48:34.180 --> 00:48:38.140 about green issues and not because I don't think they're important. 723 00:48:38.141 --> 00:48:39.940 I think they're enormously important. 724 00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:43.180 It's just because they're so important that I'm fearful about them. 725 00:48:45.790 --> 00:48:50.770 My, my political consciousness was very much shaped by the mass murders of the 726 00:48:50.771 --> 00:48:51.604 last century, 727 00:48:52.180 --> 00:48:56.980 by thinking about Stalinism and by thinking about the Holocaust 728 00:48:58.210 --> 00:49:01.360 and how many people were murdered for the sake of, 729 00:49:01.990 --> 00:49:06.850 in one case for a better future for working people or for human kind more 730 00:49:06.851 --> 00:49:11.680 generally in the communist caves and for the folk in the 731 00:49:11.681 --> 00:49:12.520 second codes. 732 00:49:13.090 --> 00:49:17.950 And so I'm very fearful now in an age where it seems to 733 00:49:17.951 --> 00:49:19.720 me, two things are coming together. 734 00:49:20.050 --> 00:49:24.400 One is an increasing sort of instrumental conception of what morality is about. 735 00:49:24.640 --> 00:49:26.620 It's a set of rule to promote the human good, 736 00:49:26.621 --> 00:49:30.940 for example and a real crisis with respect to the human good. 737 00:49:31.660 --> 00:49:33.340 And unless we're very, 738 00:49:33.341 --> 00:49:38.170 very careful those two things will come together in 739 00:49:39.040 --> 00:49:42.880 a group of experts because after all, just like, I know nothing about water. 740 00:49:43.240 --> 00:49:47.890 So most of us know nothing on don't know enough to contradict the 741 00:49:47.891 --> 00:49:52.570 experts about water or about the various other issues that 742 00:49:52.571 --> 00:49:56.440 affect us in those areas that are called green issues. 743 00:49:57.451 --> 00:50:02.140 And therefore there's a great danger of a kind of instrumental view of 744 00:50:02.141 --> 00:50:05.230 morality, which has all of the human good will be, 745 00:50:05.231 --> 00:50:08.080 as it were directed by a group of people who are experts. 746 00:50:08.590 --> 00:50:11.980 And that will mean that people are some, 747 00:50:12.190 --> 00:50:15.880 some groups of people will be listed to be eliminated. 748 00:50:16.510 --> 00:50:21.310 I think I fear and I don't think anybody thinking about 749 00:50:21.311 --> 00:50:25.780 the history of the last century can be too sanguine 750 00:50:25.840 --> 00:50:30.650 about the possibility that large groups of human beings will be seen 751 00:50:30.710 --> 00:50:31.760 as disposable. 752 00:50:33.540 --> 00:50:37.440 Th the other thing that I want to just very briefly to talk about is that it is 753 00:50:37.520 --> 00:50:40.190 that in my own sort of intellectual lifetime, 754 00:50:40.191 --> 00:50:43.340 there was a move from kind of internationalism, which was, was, 755 00:50:43.370 --> 00:50:45.290 was a sort of ideal of, 756 00:50:45.380 --> 00:50:50.150 of people who thought themselves to be progressive and on the left to a new 757 00:50:50.151 --> 00:50:53.630 sense of sort of rootedness and ethnic identity, which is now 758 00:50:55.310 --> 00:50:58.820 I suppose, dominates a lot of ethical thinking, but there's a new move to, 759 00:50:58.821 --> 00:51:03.800 because of partly because of concerned with ecological issues and partly because 760 00:51:03.801 --> 00:51:07.760 of a concern with human rights legislation to a kind of internationalism. 761 00:51:08.330 --> 00:51:11.090 And there's an interesting tension here. I think for a lot of people, 762 00:51:11.120 --> 00:51:15.970 I know myself, I'm quite confused when I try to, to think about it, but, 763 00:51:16.250 --> 00:51:18.110 but I bet the people who are, 764 00:51:18.140 --> 00:51:22.940 who are now increasingly skeptical of what they 765 00:51:22.941 --> 00:51:27.620 might call ethnic politics are. So for very good reason, 766 00:51:27.680 --> 00:51:29.750 that there's so much hatred that is, 767 00:51:30.170 --> 00:51:33.920 is a consequence and that lies behind it. So I, 768 00:51:34.610 --> 00:51:37.160 so I, but on the other hand, it seems to me, 769 00:51:37.190 --> 00:51:41.030 people have discovered how important it is to have more, 770 00:51:41.060 --> 00:51:43.910 much more local identity. It's not just to be human beings, 771 00:51:44.150 --> 00:51:46.300 but to be somehow rooted in more in the, 772 00:51:46.301 --> 00:51:50.000 in the life of the people and the natural language of the people and the arts 773 00:51:50.001 --> 00:51:51.860 and the history of that people. 774 00:51:52.880 --> 00:51:56.240 And I'd just like to leave you with one thought, it's not my thought, 775 00:51:56.241 --> 00:52:01.190 it's the thought of someone I've spoken up before on this platform Simone 776 00:52:01.640 --> 00:52:06.560 veil who was concerned in the second world war with 777 00:52:06.561 --> 00:52:09.350 how the the allies, 778 00:52:09.710 --> 00:52:14.000 when she was specifically concerned with the friend might develop a kind of 779 00:52:14.001 --> 00:52:17.540 energy, which matched the ferocious energy of the Nazis, 780 00:52:18.110 --> 00:52:22.670 but wasn't based on that brutal for that a CISM and her thought was that the 781 00:52:22.671 --> 00:52:27.050 energies that sustain the Nazis was a consequence of a kind of 782 00:52:28.850 --> 00:52:33.620 a sense of nationalism that was based on the glorification of status and power 783 00:52:34.010 --> 00:52:37.970 and glory. And she thought they might be in fact, 784 00:52:37.971 --> 00:52:40.550 another way of loving one's country, 785 00:52:40.910 --> 00:52:44.540 which would give people the same kind of energy to fight as ferociously, 786 00:52:44.810 --> 00:52:48.110 but not degenerate into a horrific jingoism, 787 00:52:48.950 --> 00:52:51.020 which despised all other countries. 788 00:52:51.080 --> 00:52:55.940 And she thought it was a kind of nationalism based on a compassionate regard 789 00:52:56.300 --> 00:53:01.130 for the fragility of all the good things in one's nation, not the great, 790 00:53:01.550 --> 00:53:05.760 not constantly be talking about greatness and glory, but to have a sense of, of, 791 00:53:05.830 --> 00:53:10.250 of the things that are very good in Australia in fact, has, 792 00:53:10.460 --> 00:53:11.900 has that marvelous tradition. 793 00:53:11.901 --> 00:53:15.920 That's one of the wonderful things about the Gallipoli and Anset tradition, 794 00:53:16.130 --> 00:53:18.470 but it's not you know 795 00:53:21.920 --> 00:53:26.730 net such an admiration of glory. And so, and if I were to think of how it, 796 00:53:26.790 --> 00:53:31.590 how it's possible for people still to have a love of 797 00:53:31.620 --> 00:53:35.160 country and the love of what roots them and the love of what's shaped their 798 00:53:35.161 --> 00:53:39.960 identity without fearing that that same love will cause them to look down 799 00:53:39.961 --> 00:53:43.500 upon, or even vilify other nations. 800 00:53:43.830 --> 00:53:48.690 It would be to think about that marvelous thought of smoke vases, 801 00:53:48.720 --> 00:53:49.830 that the love of country, 802 00:53:50.070 --> 00:53:53.730 or to be a compassionate love for all the things that are fragile. You know. 803 00:54:11.150 --> 00:54:12.290 Thank you very much. 804 00:54:12.740 --> 00:54:17.630 If some of the basic facts and situations that the 805 00:54:17.631 --> 00:54:22.220 speakers have put forward to us tend to read like some kind of 806 00:54:22.610 --> 00:54:26.750 shocking old Testament prophecy about the end of the world. 807 00:54:28.130 --> 00:54:32.750 Our next speaker has actually spent many years looking 808 00:54:32.751 --> 00:54:37.490 deeply into the old Testament and opening it out into a 809 00:54:37.491 --> 00:54:41.960 set of possibilities for a new society and a new generation reading 810 00:54:42.170 --> 00:54:46.910 deeply in between the lines and finding of 811 00:54:46.911 --> 00:54:47.744 course, 812 00:54:47.960 --> 00:54:52.610 a richness and an infinitude within a moral universe 813 00:54:53.270 --> 00:54:57.530 that can be reimagined in a different cultural 814 00:54:57.531 --> 00:55:01.790 context, opening out the sexism, 815 00:55:01.820 --> 00:55:04.520 opening out a certain, you know, 816 00:55:04.521 --> 00:55:07.610 minor historical circumstances and trying to say, well, 817 00:55:08.090 --> 00:55:12.920 is there a larger picture that does translate Regina 818 00:55:12.921 --> 00:55:17.750 Schwartz? A professor from Chicago has very, 819 00:55:17.751 --> 00:55:22.190 very powerfully reinterpreted, the old Testament in new paradigms. 820 00:55:22.760 --> 00:55:26.900 And I'm wondering Regina, if you would speak for us this evening. 821 00:55:36.170 --> 00:55:39.260 Well forgive me for bringing up a very old story, 822 00:55:39.261 --> 00:55:44.060 but there is an old story that God planted a garden 823 00:55:44.090 --> 00:55:48.260 in Eden and put some rivers in the garden for, 824 00:55:48.261 --> 00:55:49.460 to be precise. 825 00:55:50.270 --> 00:55:55.130 And then he planted man in that garden and told him to tend and keep 826 00:55:55.131 --> 00:55:59.660 the garden. And I think there's an awful lot of wisdom in that story. 827 00:56:00.170 --> 00:56:02.090 The rivers flow freely, 828 00:56:02.600 --> 00:56:07.220 but man is to tend to it and keep it not look elsewhere for solutions 829 00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:09.290 that's countered, of course, 830 00:56:09.291 --> 00:56:13.970 by the first creation narrative in which God has to separate the waters, 831 00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:16.940 the salt waters in order for the land to appear. 832 00:56:17.450 --> 00:56:21.890 And the idea there is that somehow the salt waters are threatening 833 00:56:22.790 --> 00:56:26.320 and re inundate the land and destroy the land. 834 00:56:26.530 --> 00:56:31.410 So the biblical story begins with the distinction between hostile waters 835 00:56:31.411 --> 00:56:35.760 that you have to keep at bay in order for the land to 836 00:56:35.761 --> 00:56:40.590 prosper on the one hand and these marvelous waters that flow 837 00:56:40.591 --> 00:56:44.490 through paradise and, and water, the garden that God has planted. 838 00:56:44.730 --> 00:56:46.410 And we've inherited. I think these, 839 00:56:46.470 --> 00:56:51.360 these basic paradigms of water as both life-giving on the one hand and hostile 840 00:56:51.361 --> 00:56:52.194 on the other. 841 00:56:52.440 --> 00:56:57.120 The other thing that I've learned from the biblical story is 842 00:56:57.240 --> 00:57:01.980 that there are paradigms of scarcity and plentitude 843 00:57:03.120 --> 00:57:07.860 that seemed to me to go beyond notions of 844 00:57:07.920 --> 00:57:10.500 material scarcity and plenitude, 845 00:57:10.501 --> 00:57:14.940 and that can inform our lives and the ways in which we treat one another. 846 00:57:15.330 --> 00:57:19.260 And I, I became the longer, I read biblical stories, 847 00:57:19.380 --> 00:57:22.410 stories of limited blessings and scare supplies. 848 00:57:22.680 --> 00:57:26.730 I became very frightened of what I've come to call scarcity thinking. 849 00:57:28.230 --> 00:57:32.610 The kind of thinking that, that, because our supplies are dwindling, 850 00:57:32.611 --> 00:57:34.410 we might have to hoard them. 851 00:57:35.910 --> 00:57:40.470 And I have come to embrace the idealism 852 00:57:40.800 --> 00:57:43.350 and utopian thinking. Yeah, 853 00:57:43.380 --> 00:57:48.060 that generosity is based upon the generosity that says, look, 854 00:57:48.061 --> 00:57:52.200 there are unlimited supplies and all we have to do is keep them in circulation. 855 00:57:52.860 --> 00:57:57.660 Now, how can we put all of these thoughts together when we've learned from our 856 00:57:58.310 --> 00:58:02.220 esteemed scholars up here that in fact supplies are dwindling on the one hand, 857 00:58:02.221 --> 00:58:05.820 but we want to be generous on the other, what, what should we do? 858 00:58:05.910 --> 00:58:07.860 How do we handle this crisis? 859 00:58:08.340 --> 00:58:11.580 It seems to me that utopian thinking isn't right order, 860 00:58:11.581 --> 00:58:13.110 and isn't such a bad thing. 861 00:58:13.710 --> 00:58:18.510 And that if we do presuppose an unlimited supply and take a walk on the 862 00:58:18.511 --> 00:58:21.900 beach and look at the ocean and you can be overwhelmed by, 863 00:58:21.910 --> 00:58:25.170 by how much water there is, if we do think that way, 864 00:58:25.470 --> 00:58:30.450 we might strive harder for solutions as you were indicating strive 865 00:58:30.451 --> 00:58:35.190 harder for solutions in which we do distribute 866 00:58:35.191 --> 00:58:40.110 this abundant resource and do handle this abundant resource that is tended 867 00:58:40.111 --> 00:58:41.880 and keep it with respect. 868 00:58:43.230 --> 00:58:48.210 Finally we were asked tonight to think about the future and the 21st 869 00:58:48.211 --> 00:58:50.400 century and new paradigms, 870 00:58:50.670 --> 00:58:55.350 and I've come up with a rather humble one, which is conversation. 871 00:58:56.670 --> 00:58:59.820 That means not using language instrumentally, 872 00:58:59.850 --> 00:59:03.060 not using one another instrumentally, 873 00:59:03.061 --> 00:59:07.830 but really being able to see and hear and talk to one 874 00:59:07.831 --> 00:59:11.970 another across identity divides across 875 00:59:12.660 --> 00:59:15.840 material divides of all kinds. 876 00:59:16.140 --> 00:59:20.850 And I've learned the value of conversation actually from mystical, 877 00:59:21.920 --> 00:59:24.890 which asks us to think of praise, 878 00:59:24.980 --> 00:59:28.040 even as a gift that has been made to us. 879 00:59:28.100 --> 00:59:32.840 It's an offering that we return as a pure expression of desire. 880 00:59:33.380 --> 00:59:37.790 It can also take the form of a lament to lament about the crisis of our world 881 00:59:37.791 --> 00:59:38.624 today. 882 00:59:39.440 --> 00:59:43.880 Nonetheless in the very act of lamenting lamenting about our scarce 883 00:59:43.881 --> 00:59:47.540 resources, lamenting about the tragedies in our world, 884 00:59:47.780 --> 00:59:50.570 we are in inevitably celebrating. 885 00:59:50.571 --> 00:59:55.100 And what we're celebrating is a sense of gratitude that we have a 886 00:59:55.101 --> 00:59:59.810 listener that there may be someone to hear us 887 01:00:00.770 --> 01:00:03.560 that kind of gratitude comes from the depths. 888 01:00:03.560 --> 01:00:07.580 It's the praise of Jonah from the belly of the whale or the praise of Joe. 889 01:00:08.750 --> 01:00:12.620 It's the kind of song that God gives in the night, as it says, 890 01:00:12.621 --> 01:00:14.150 hauntingly in the book of job, 891 01:00:15.080 --> 01:00:19.610 it's also the praise of Christ from the cross. When he says my God, 892 01:00:19.611 --> 01:00:20.091 my God, 893 01:00:20.091 --> 01:00:24.860 why have you forsaken me as so many of us are saying feeling that we 894 01:00:24.861 --> 01:00:28.040 have been forsaken as last night's panel on, 895 01:00:28.100 --> 01:00:31.010 on God and science indicated. 896 01:00:32.390 --> 01:00:35.420 But Christ is quoting the Bible. 897 01:00:35.450 --> 01:00:38.990 When he says that he's quoting Psalm 22, 898 01:00:39.290 --> 01:00:43.730 and that isn't only a Psalm of lament. It's also a Psalm of praise, 899 01:00:43.731 --> 01:00:47.060 indeed of gratitude. For our world, 900 01:00:47.450 --> 01:00:50.960 it begins the Psalm, my God, my God. Why have you deserted me? 901 01:00:51.170 --> 01:00:54.350 How far from saving me? The words I grown, 902 01:00:55.010 --> 01:00:59.690 I call all day my God, but you never answer all night. 903 01:00:59.690 --> 01:01:01.850 I call and cannot rest. 904 01:01:02.540 --> 01:01:05.480 Then the speaker recalls that once upon a time, 905 01:01:05.481 --> 01:01:09.290 his calls were heard and his calls were answered. That that is in fact, 906 01:01:09.291 --> 01:01:13.880 his very genealogy. He says in you, our fathers put their trust. 907 01:01:14.240 --> 01:01:18.110 They trusted and you rescued them. They called on you to help. 908 01:01:18.140 --> 01:01:22.310 And they were saved. They never trusted you in vain. 909 01:01:23.270 --> 01:01:28.040 Yet the speaker then proceeds to abandon the temporary comfort of seeing 910 01:01:28.041 --> 01:01:31.190 himself in that genealogy of having calls answered. 911 01:01:31.520 --> 01:01:35.510 He sees himself instead in the present through the eyes of others, 912 01:01:35.570 --> 01:01:39.920 constituted by them as a victim and says yet, 913 01:01:39.921 --> 01:01:44.240 here am I now more worm than man's scorn of mankind, 914 01:01:44.241 --> 01:01:47.270 just of the people, all who see me Jarrett at me, 915 01:01:47.570 --> 01:01:51.710 they toss their heads and sneer and they say, rely on God, 916 01:01:51.740 --> 01:01:56.090 let God save him. Let God save us. If God is our friend, 917 01:01:56.091 --> 01:01:58.670 let God rescue them. They say cheering me. 918 01:02:00.860 --> 01:02:05.270 This is the language that Matthew invokes to describe the taunting of Jesus 919 01:02:05.271 --> 01:02:09.290 before his crucifixion and in the Psalm, as at the crucifixion, 920 01:02:09.500 --> 01:02:13.760 this misery is miraculously answered. 921 01:02:14.660 --> 01:02:19.500 Those who trust that God will save, speak the truth unwittingly. 922 01:02:19.530 --> 01:02:24.450 It seems rely on God, let God save him. You know, 923 01:02:24.510 --> 01:02:28.530 is that a mockery agir or is that something that could happen? 924 01:02:29.070 --> 01:02:33.960 The Psalm proceeds? I'm at verse 24 now nearly done for, 925 01:02:33.961 --> 01:02:36.900 he has not despised or disdained. 926 01:02:37.020 --> 01:02:41.610 The poor man in his poverty has not hidden his face from 927 01:02:41.611 --> 01:02:44.820 him, but has answered when he called. 928 01:02:46.710 --> 01:02:48.450 I just like to conclude by saying, 929 01:02:48.451 --> 01:02:53.400 I think that in the 21st century where craving an 930 01:02:53.401 --> 01:02:57.420 answer when we call and that we've accepted that it's our 931 01:02:57.421 --> 01:03:01.950 responsibility to forge that answer. Thank you. 932 01:03:14.390 --> 01:03:15.530 Thank you very much. 933 01:03:15.680 --> 01:03:19.820 I'd love to move this into a discussion mode and 934 01:03:20.510 --> 01:03:24.290 for the public there are, there's a microphone down here, 935 01:03:24.291 --> 01:03:28.400 halfway back in the hall and again, up above in this corner. 936 01:03:28.580 --> 01:03:32.330 So if people who want to ask questions that enter the discussion, 937 01:03:32.660 --> 01:03:36.200 we'll move to the microphones. Can I just ask in the meantime two short, 938 01:03:36.290 --> 01:03:37.400 quick questions? 939 01:03:37.630 --> 01:03:42.170 I think one is I know that there are a lot of people in in 940 01:03:42.171 --> 01:03:45.050 Australia, but aren't there even more sheep 941 01:03:50.000 --> 01:03:54.710 119 million sheep. I mean, so they're 10 times more sheep than people here, 942 01:03:54.711 --> 01:03:59.270 right? I just checking. Yes. Okay. And, and, and cattle. 943 01:03:59.780 --> 01:04:03.050 Yes. Yeah. I don't know how many cattle, but there's a lot of tens of millions. 944 01:04:04.070 --> 01:04:06.440 So they, in a certain way put the people to shame. 945 01:04:08.270 --> 01:04:11.810 I just want to check on that. I mean, a visitor. Okay. 946 01:04:12.650 --> 01:04:17.150 And I know that in, in, in California where we're specializing, you know, 947 01:04:17.151 --> 01:04:21.830 the U S has perfected the gap treaty so that we can forbid Korean farmers from 948 01:04:21.831 --> 01:04:22.640 growing rice. 949 01:04:22.640 --> 01:04:27.560 And we are currently draining the rivers in the Northern California to 950 01:04:27.590 --> 01:04:30.860 create rice patties in the central desert of California, 951 01:04:31.040 --> 01:04:35.510 so that we can sell rice to the Koreans at profit. 952 01:04:38.750 --> 01:04:43.700 Mary you're suggesting that some of this profound logic is underway here 953 01:04:43.701 --> 01:04:46.790 in Australia. What will it take in terms, you know, 954 01:04:47.170 --> 01:04:50.150 the usual question of reform is to follow the money trail. 955 01:04:51.140 --> 01:04:55.010 How does one actually create the, 956 01:04:55.090 --> 01:04:59.450 the sense that there is a force that's equal to the money trail 957 01:04:59.960 --> 01:05:04.340 in that sense and can turn around something that is so deeply embedded. I mean, 958 01:05:04.341 --> 01:05:07.400 if you look at the Justine art, you know, the, 959 01:05:07.490 --> 01:05:10.610 the Tom Roberts paintings, you know you know, the, 960 01:05:10.910 --> 01:05:14.660 the Australian self-image is so much about, you know, 961 01:05:15.170 --> 01:05:19.300 cattle and, and, and cotton and all of that stuff. I mean, 962 01:05:19.360 --> 01:05:20.560 aren't you talking about a very, 963 01:05:20.561 --> 01:05:24.670 very profound shift of national identity in terms 964 01:05:25.150 --> 01:05:28.840 of the larger white culture here? 965 01:05:29.940 --> 01:05:30.810 Or to some extent, 966 01:05:30.811 --> 01:05:34.950 I think what's happened is that so many farmers have gone broke because their 967 01:05:34.951 --> 01:05:39.510 land is so degraded that the small pieces of land that are owned by 968 01:05:39.540 --> 01:05:42.000 individual people are not productive. 969 01:05:42.480 --> 01:05:45.800 And therefore they've sold out wherever possible. I mean, if you, 970 01:05:46.530 --> 01:05:50.700 or even if I, knowing what I know about things, which isn't all that much, 971 01:05:50.730 --> 01:05:55.590 but some if I was a farmer who was struggling on a small piece 972 01:05:55.591 --> 01:06:00.510 of land with the price of wool gone down and all those sorts of 973 01:06:00.511 --> 01:06:04.770 things, and I had kids to illustrate it, to educate at a distance, you know, 974 01:06:04.800 --> 01:06:07.140 expensive education and all those things. 975 01:06:07.530 --> 01:06:12.420 And if somebody came along one of these big agro things, you know, 976 01:06:12.421 --> 01:06:15.540 the big conglomerates of people who are making money and said, look, 977 01:06:15.660 --> 01:06:20.490 we're going to put in a cotton gin on the road. We can guarantee you, 978 01:06:20.491 --> 01:06:24.240 if you let us add your farm to all this, 979 01:06:24.360 --> 01:06:27.330 if all of you add your farm to our enterprise, 980 01:06:27.331 --> 01:06:31.890 we can guarantee you a salary of whatever, 981 01:06:32.400 --> 01:06:35.820 nice and large, you know, after tax and all the rest of it. 982 01:06:36.450 --> 01:06:39.840 I think you might be desperate enough to go ahead with, 983 01:06:39.870 --> 01:06:42.270 because you love the land. You love the place. 984 01:06:42.271 --> 01:06:46.770 You've seen it slipping away from you in spite of your hard work and your best 985 01:06:46.771 --> 01:06:47.670 intentions, 986 01:06:47.880 --> 01:06:52.320 because what you were doing was really not compatible with what the land 987 01:06:52.740 --> 01:06:53.610 required, 988 01:06:54.420 --> 01:06:57.540 but not because you weren't doing best practice according to the book or 989 01:06:57.541 --> 01:06:58.410 anything else. 990 01:06:58.860 --> 01:07:02.940 And then hardly any of us who wouldn't be tempted under those conditions to go 991 01:07:02.941 --> 01:07:06.000 ahead with it. And yet, you know, or I know, 992 01:07:06.030 --> 01:07:08.100 and I'm sure somebody else knows too, 993 01:07:08.400 --> 01:07:13.350 that what you're doing is totally unsustainable when your farm can no 994 01:07:13.351 --> 01:07:17.700 longer produce anything, because you've turned the soil into a dead thing. 995 01:07:18.090 --> 01:07:20.940 Soil is a living thing full of microorganisms and whatnot. 996 01:07:21.210 --> 01:07:25.200 And when you go on irrigating, adding that amount of fertilizer and whatnot, 997 01:07:25.201 --> 01:07:26.034 you're killing it. 998 01:07:27.780 --> 01:07:32.040 And you know that you're taking too much water out of the local river and just a 999 01:07:32.041 --> 01:07:35.670 little way down stream. It looks as though the darling is dying or something. 1000 01:07:37.560 --> 01:07:39.900 You have these enormous dilemmas. 1001 01:07:40.380 --> 01:07:44.400 And if by joining these what's going on, 1002 01:07:44.670 --> 01:07:47.730 you get the local town then thriving. I mean, 1003 01:07:47.731 --> 01:07:51.780 I've seen what's happened to Berks since cotton took over in that area. 1004 01:07:51.870 --> 01:07:56.550 It was a depressed, absolute hell hole, 10 years ago. It's now booming, 1005 01:07:56.551 --> 01:07:59.910 small town. Everybody's got hope and all the rest of it. 1006 01:08:00.060 --> 01:08:03.240 And they deserve that sort of encouragement. 1007 01:08:03.241 --> 01:08:07.740 They've lived the hardest sort of lives, all of them. So it's, 1008 01:08:07.770 --> 01:08:12.690 it's a dilemma of a size that I honestly don't know what the answers 1009 01:08:12.691 --> 01:08:13.524 are. 1010 01:08:14.190 --> 01:08:17.450 I'd like to just turn the diner for one second to 1011 01:08:19.460 --> 01:08:24.140 a different kind of question if I could just since we're on cotton and this 1012 01:08:24.141 --> 01:08:25.580 textiles, I mean, for me, 1013 01:08:25.581 --> 01:08:30.530 one of the most interesting questions is you know, India had, 1014 01:08:30.531 --> 01:08:32.780 of course for many centuries, 1015 01:08:32.930 --> 01:08:37.820 a textile production that created not just 1016 01:08:37.850 --> 01:08:38.900 lots of textiles, 1017 01:08:38.901 --> 01:08:43.760 but actually the most extraordinary level of craftsmanship pieces that were 1018 01:08:43.761 --> 01:08:44.510 treasures, 1019 01:08:44.510 --> 01:08:49.190 that every single piece of cloth is unique made by 1020 01:08:49.191 --> 01:08:51.620 master artisans and craftsmen. 1021 01:08:51.890 --> 01:08:55.130 And so that it is a work that adds meaning to life. 1022 01:08:56.150 --> 01:09:00.770 Obviously we're in a globalization paradigm where goods have 1023 01:09:00.771 --> 01:09:05.270 almost no value at all are being created in ways in which the work itself is 1024 01:09:05.271 --> 01:09:06.104 degrading. 1025 01:09:06.200 --> 01:09:10.760 And those types of jobs are being offered to people as their only hope. 1026 01:09:11.900 --> 01:09:12.733 I'm wondering, 1027 01:09:12.830 --> 01:09:17.510 is there a way in which this current breakup actually could lead us 1028 01:09:17.750 --> 01:09:21.770 back towards a different understanding of the meaning of work? 1029 01:09:22.900 --> 01:09:27.580 I think it can lead us to a different understanding of the meaning of work. 1030 01:09:27.940 --> 01:09:32.710 If we actually see the work that goes into a 1031 01:09:32.711 --> 01:09:37.630 product just as we could have a different understanding on water, 1032 01:09:37.720 --> 01:09:41.020 if we can see the water that goes into a product, 1033 01:09:41.440 --> 01:09:44.890 now you might remember we were the best textile producers. 1034 01:09:45.070 --> 01:09:48.850 Then we were colonized and our cotton and indigo used to go to England, 1035 01:09:49.150 --> 01:09:50.740 come back as finished products. 1036 01:09:51.040 --> 01:09:55.720 It had destroyed our textiles and I independence movement was around reclaiming 1037 01:09:56.140 --> 01:09:58.090 the ability to make our own cloth. 1038 01:09:58.390 --> 01:10:00.580 That's why Gandhi picked up the spinning wheel. 1039 01:10:01.990 --> 01:10:06.370 We were down to 5% of producing our own 1040 01:10:06.371 --> 01:10:11.320 clock. When we got independence by one single policy, 1041 01:10:13.000 --> 01:10:17.410 those beautiful fabrics came back to our lives and 1042 01:10:17.470 --> 01:10:22.120 accounted for 75% of India's textile production till about 10 years ago before 1043 01:10:22.121 --> 01:10:22.960 globalization. 1044 01:10:23.230 --> 01:10:27.670 And that policy basically was that large numbers of 1045 01:10:27.671 --> 01:10:30.880 products were reserved for what was called the handloom sector. 1046 01:10:32.020 --> 01:10:32.531 Shoulds like this. 1047 01:10:32.531 --> 01:10:36.610 The only reason you still get beautiful shawls from India is they were reserved. 1048 01:10:36.640 --> 01:10:40.540 They couldn't be made in, in big mills, 1049 01:10:42.040 --> 01:10:45.280 saris, loonies towers, 1050 01:10:45.880 --> 01:10:50.770 and entire group of products that everyone could use then created the market 1051 01:10:50.771 --> 01:10:51.940 for the local production. 1052 01:10:52.420 --> 01:10:56.410 What globalization has done is two things to that base and that's part of our 1053 01:10:56.411 --> 01:10:59.560 struggle again. And that's why we are in a new kind of freedom movement. 1054 01:11:00.940 --> 01:11:05.170 One by allowing the floods of 1055 01:11:05.230 --> 01:11:08.830 subsidized, not, not cheaply produced, 1056 01:11:08.831 --> 01:11:12.790 but subsidized because subsidized because the water polluted didn't go into the, 1057 01:11:13.860 --> 01:11:16.950 the atmosphere polluted in going to the cost. 1058 01:11:17.610 --> 01:11:22.140 That's starting to flood in and reservation policies are being 1059 01:11:22.141 --> 01:11:24.030 treated as illegal. 1060 01:11:24.031 --> 01:11:27.660 The fact that certain products will only be made by certain sectors, 1061 01:11:27.661 --> 01:11:28.620 a small sector, 1062 01:11:29.010 --> 01:11:32.370 our food processing was in the small sector that has to be opened up to 1063 01:11:32.460 --> 01:11:35.820 agribusiness. That basically means you wipe out the weavers. 1064 01:11:36.210 --> 01:11:40.560 In one season, we had 2 million weavers go out of work, 1065 01:11:41.910 --> 01:11:43.950 and these are master craftspeople. You know, 1066 01:11:43.951 --> 01:11:45.750 they are the ones who made those beautiful clothing. 1067 01:11:46.620 --> 01:11:50.160 The second thing it's done is changed the nature of our cultivation. 1068 01:11:50.760 --> 01:11:52.140 I'm happy to hear somewhere. 1069 01:11:52.141 --> 01:11:56.820 There's a boom around cotton in India with globalization of 1070 01:11:56.821 --> 01:11:59.130 cotton and exports of cotton. 1071 01:11:59.610 --> 01:12:04.250 We've also had a flooding of new varieties of cotton because a handle 1072 01:12:04.410 --> 01:12:06.960 can deal with the short staple indigenous varieties, 1073 01:12:06.961 --> 01:12:11.160 which are very drought resistant can grow under rain fed conditions in extremely 1074 01:12:11.161 --> 01:12:13.710 arid areas. But the hybrid cotton, 1075 01:12:13.890 --> 01:12:18.510 which gives you long fights staple fiber is required for the machine 1076 01:12:18.511 --> 01:12:23.130 production. And that's what global market wants. So you shift to hybrid, 1077 01:12:23.131 --> 01:12:24.720 which needs irrigation. 1078 01:12:25.050 --> 01:12:29.280 We need pesticides and farmers are getting into debt of a hundred thousand, 1079 01:12:29.281 --> 01:12:32.790 200,000 for drilling deep tube Wells in everyday areas, 1080 01:12:33.000 --> 01:12:36.090 buying the pesticides deep, such deep debt, 1081 01:12:36.150 --> 01:12:38.640 that they are then consuming the pesticide to kill themselves. 1082 01:12:38.641 --> 01:12:42.420 And we've had 20,000 farm suicides in the 1083 01:12:43.590 --> 01:12:46.650 cotton areas of India in the last three years. 1084 01:12:47.130 --> 01:12:48.720 So we are having Viva suicides. 1085 01:12:48.721 --> 01:12:53.160 We are having farmers suicides and our cotton culture is under severe threat. 1086 01:12:53.161 --> 01:12:55.380 Our textile culture is on the tips of your thread. 1087 01:12:56.220 --> 01:12:58.050 I know with the new information technologies, 1088 01:12:58.051 --> 01:13:02.160 we've got yet another wave of displacement. And I think just like, 1089 01:13:02.161 --> 01:13:06.690 we need to make transparent how much water went into our production and 1090 01:13:06.691 --> 01:13:07.524 consumption. 1091 01:13:07.770 --> 01:13:12.420 We really need to distinguish between products that give 1092 01:13:12.421 --> 01:13:16.410 dignity and meaning to work products. Products 1093 01:13:25.191 --> 01:13:29.930 that leave space for the human being. 1094 01:13:29.931 --> 01:13:34.430 And don't turn us all disposable. Not just because there isn't enough water, 1095 01:13:34.460 --> 01:13:36.080 but also because there isn't enough work. 1096 01:13:36.650 --> 01:13:41.600 Thank you. Warren, from your situation occupying an office, which, you know, 1097 01:13:41.601 --> 01:13:45.500 advises a fair number of people who are pulling a fair number of the key levers 1098 01:13:45.501 --> 01:13:50.450 in the world. Do you see any progress in terms of getting, 1099 01:13:50.600 --> 01:13:55.310 you know, people who are in charge of larger economic questions to actually 1100 01:13:55.850 --> 01:13:58.550 begin to think in terms of appropriate crops, 1101 01:13:58.610 --> 01:14:03.470 appropriate location of certain types of work in industry 1102 01:14:03.590 --> 01:14:06.800 in certain places in the world, or are we getting that, you know, 1103 01:14:06.801 --> 01:14:10.400 people in entirely inappropriate areas are trying to create something from 1104 01:14:10.401 --> 01:14:11.260 somewhere else. 1105 01:14:11.770 --> 01:14:16.080 And, and there's no turning back that tide. Well, largely it's, 1106 01:14:16.081 --> 01:14:18.790 it's economically driven. It's not government driven. 1107 01:14:18.791 --> 01:14:20.560 People make their own choices. 1108 01:14:21.011 --> 01:14:24.340 The use of water it's not a policy. 1109 01:14:24.370 --> 01:14:29.020 The policy and most democratic systems is determined by a legislative body. 1110 01:14:29.021 --> 01:14:29.854 We give them the, 1111 01:14:29.860 --> 01:14:34.780 make them provide them the value judgements in 1112 01:14:34.781 --> 01:14:39.040 the United States. I can speak for, there is a great number of lobbying, 1113 01:14:39.340 --> 01:14:42.850 a great deal of lobbying going on by large industries. 1114 01:14:43.240 --> 01:14:46.180 Probably not peculiar just to the United States, 1115 01:14:46.690 --> 01:14:48.940 but it's basically a free market system. 1116 01:14:48.941 --> 01:14:53.530 And if you feel that you can make money in importing water, 1117 01:14:53.531 --> 01:14:56.860 or importing, putting farm in a certain area, 1118 01:14:56.861 --> 01:15:01.300 and you're willing to take the risk, then that's the nature of the game. 1119 01:15:02.050 --> 01:15:07.000 The policy and management, as I indicated in my presentation, 1120 01:15:07.001 --> 01:15:08.170 I think it was in crisis. 1121 01:15:08.171 --> 01:15:12.160 I think we're really some of we've, 1122 01:15:12.161 --> 01:15:15.040 we've violated the common good in some cases, 1123 01:15:15.041 --> 01:15:18.820 I'm not sure how you ever recover that, 1124 01:15:18.821 --> 01:15:23.080 but it's it has been, our rivers are well, 1125 01:15:23.081 --> 01:15:24.700 they're not as bad as they used to be. 1126 01:15:24.700 --> 01:15:27.130 They're much better than they were 20 or 30 years ago, 1127 01:15:27.131 --> 01:15:28.750 but there's still not a work. 1128 01:15:30.340 --> 01:15:33.790 They're not suitable for the purposes that they should be. 1129 01:15:34.300 --> 01:15:36.820 Could I ask briefly, and then we'll move to the first question, 1130 01:15:36.821 --> 01:15:40.210 but may I just ask, is there anybody who would give a, 1131 01:15:40.320 --> 01:15:43.240 a short sketch of the process of healing or river 1132 01:15:45.820 --> 01:15:47.050 putting things into it? 1133 01:15:47.051 --> 01:15:51.130 It's very simple. It's incredibly simple. 1134 01:15:51.131 --> 01:15:53.170 We make great strides. All. 1135 01:15:53.171 --> 01:15:57.130 You have to do a river renews itself every month or so. 1136 01:15:57.190 --> 01:16:00.430 All you have to do is stop putting things in, in a matter of a few months, 1137 01:16:01.030 --> 01:16:01.863 it'll be recovered. 1138 01:16:02.400 --> 01:16:05.970 Two other things. You know, I come from next to the Ganges. 1139 01:16:06.000 --> 01:16:08.280 That's where my home is. And again, 1140 01:16:08.310 --> 01:16:11.640 the glaciers that feed the Ganges are receding heavily because of climate 1141 01:16:11.641 --> 01:16:15.240 change. I do think we will have to need, and we need to do something. 1142 01:16:15.750 --> 01:16:19.980 And the government in your country is so captive 1143 01:16:20.670 --> 01:16:25.020 to the lobby groups that it is government decision for the private 1144 01:16:25.740 --> 01:16:26.070 interest. 1145 01:16:26.070 --> 01:16:30.840 But I think our rivers will die if we are 1146 01:16:30.841 --> 01:16:35.310 going to, especially the snowflake fed rivers are going to suffer tremendously, 1147 01:16:35.430 --> 01:16:37.620 and we really need to take a big step there. 1148 01:16:37.920 --> 01:16:39.900 And the second is we need to let them flow. 1149 01:16:40.050 --> 01:16:44.400 And the idea that somehow water was being 1150 01:16:44.401 --> 01:16:46.350 augmented. And you said this morning, 1151 01:16:46.380 --> 01:16:50.700 Mary that's every drop of water going into the sea is waste that engineering 1152 01:16:50.701 --> 01:16:55.110 mentality that could not see the life of a river as a life of integrity. 1153 01:16:55.320 --> 01:16:57.330 I think that's something we really need to shift. 1154 01:16:58.590 --> 01:17:01.470 I think the other thing is Australian rivers are just a bit different from 1155 01:17:01.710 --> 01:17:05.220 rivers overseas in that there's high variability from year to year. 1156 01:17:05.400 --> 01:17:07.880 So once you start regulating Australian river systems, 1157 01:17:07.881 --> 01:17:11.960 she changed me to something quite alien and weed species and weed animals like 1158 01:17:11.961 --> 01:17:13.220 car proliferating them. 1159 01:17:13.580 --> 01:17:17.230 So our river systems have to be allowed to go dry at certain times of the year 1160 01:17:17.310 --> 01:17:18.380 and have to be allowed to flood, 1161 01:17:18.650 --> 01:17:21.830 which is a great challenge to people who want to use the water in those systems 1162 01:17:21.831 --> 01:17:22.970 or even live beside them. 1163 01:17:23.300 --> 01:17:26.690 But the second you move away from that and start regulating them. 1164 01:17:26.930 --> 01:17:29.330 You start creating environmental disaster. 1165 01:17:32.660 --> 01:17:37.070 To make a point on this that a 40% of our crops are a 1166 01:17:37.160 --> 01:17:42.140 result of irrigation and the era we aren't, we irrigate about 15% of the land. 1167 01:17:42.320 --> 01:17:44.360 So if we're going to not irrigate, 1168 01:17:44.390 --> 01:17:48.740 we have to figure out where this additional food supply will come from. 1169 01:17:49.090 --> 01:17:50.680 From rain fed agriculture. 1170 01:17:50.950 --> 01:17:54.490 That's 70% of the food production in any way in Africa, Asia, 1171 01:17:54.670 --> 01:17:59.080 Latin America comes with the rain with your ability to conserve moisture. 1172 01:17:59.350 --> 01:18:02.890 The reason you're having desertification as you've depleted your soil organic 1173 01:18:02.891 --> 01:18:07.390 matter and zoomed chemical fertilizers in urea could replace that 1174 01:18:07.391 --> 01:18:10.720 magical water conservation, soil, fertility, 1175 01:18:10.870 --> 01:18:14.290 and renewal and food for the microorganisms in the soil 1176 01:18:16.960 --> 01:18:19.630 or, you know, arid zones produce as much food, in fact, 1177 01:18:19.631 --> 01:18:24.220 more nutrition per acre than the irrigated desert of California. 1178 01:18:25.570 --> 01:18:30.160 And I think we need to shift our calculus. Also you nutrition per acre, 1179 01:18:30.850 --> 01:18:35.110 and the idea that if you don't have a dam and you don't have a tube, well, 1180 01:18:35.230 --> 01:18:37.300 the food land does not produce food, 1181 01:18:37.570 --> 01:18:41.230 actually violates the experience of humanity where most food has been produced, 1182 01:18:41.590 --> 01:18:45.130 adapted to the amount of rainfall foods being produced in the desert, 1183 01:18:45.850 --> 01:18:50.710 growing very drought resistant millets and the idea that everything must become 1184 01:18:50.711 --> 01:18:53.080 a Paddy field all over the world. 1185 01:18:53.140 --> 01:18:56.950 I think that monoculture is part of the destruction of our water systems. 1186 01:19:05.810 --> 01:19:06.643 [Inaudible] To the first question here at the microphone. 1187 01:19:07.930 --> 01:19:11.170 Dr. Shiva, thank you. You've given me a very useful link to my question, 1188 01:19:11.230 --> 01:19:15.520 which was sparked by the comments of an Australian historian 1189 01:19:16.390 --> 01:19:20.650 Jeffrey Bolton some years ago where he said it was a great pity that the British 1190 01:19:20.680 --> 01:19:25.300 in fact ended up claiming Australia for Europe and colonizing it because 1191 01:19:25.630 --> 01:19:29.080 if the Spaniards had done it they would have handled 1192 01:19:30.160 --> 01:19:34.750 agriculture far differently having had better experience at dry land 1193 01:19:34.751 --> 01:19:38.740 farming. I think I've got that quite right. I'm only, 1194 01:19:39.130 --> 01:19:41.230 I'm interested in I guess, 1195 01:19:41.500 --> 01:19:45.910 tying that into the present 1196 01:19:46.240 --> 01:19:51.040 and continuing Australian experience and expertise in dry land farming. 1197 01:19:52.480 --> 01:19:56.290 And I'm wondering, although we apparently provide this to the world 1198 01:19:57.820 --> 01:19:59.230 but we read about a great deal. 1199 01:19:59.980 --> 01:20:04.030 Is this something that other members of the panel are aware of and is it 1200 01:20:04.031 --> 01:20:07.350 something that we can concentrate on picking up again from what Dr. Shiva just 1201 01:20:07.351 --> 01:20:08.184 said? 1202 01:20:11.150 --> 01:20:11.983 I can, certainly, yeah. 1203 01:20:12.020 --> 01:20:17.000 I can certainly say something about dry lands grazing which in Australia 1204 01:20:17.001 --> 01:20:18.010 is is, 1205 01:20:18.011 --> 01:20:22.940 is is a fine art now I've been fortunate enough to visit the lake here, 1206 01:20:22.960 --> 01:20:27.800 basin area where people have pastoral activity 1207 01:20:27.801 --> 01:20:28.400 there, 1208 01:20:28.400 --> 01:20:32.120 which has carried out in the driest region on the planet to support permanent 1209 01:20:32.121 --> 01:20:33.050 pastoral activity, 1210 01:20:33.470 --> 01:20:36.260 about three and a half inches of rain a year in parts of that country. 1211 01:20:36.261 --> 01:20:40.730 And they still sustain a pastoral ministry there there's very few cows to the 1212 01:20:40.731 --> 01:20:44.720 square mile is one property of about 4,000 square kilometers. 1213 01:20:44.721 --> 01:20:47.060 I visited that has 1700 head of cattle on it. 1214 01:20:47.840 --> 01:20:51.080 And what people in that part of the country do is they don't look at the 1215 01:20:51.081 --> 01:20:52.040 condition of their cattle. 1216 01:20:52.370 --> 01:20:55.740 They look at the condition of their pasture as it stands and pasture, 1217 01:20:56.000 --> 01:20:59.090 they can include little gray burrs and things that you'd never notice sitting on 1218 01:20:59.091 --> 01:21:02.240 top of the soil. But it does appear to be sustainable. 1219 01:21:02.241 --> 01:21:06.830 I've had a look at at record stock records and also photographs of vegetation 1220 01:21:06.831 --> 01:21:08.840 over the last 30 or 40 years in that country. 1221 01:21:09.260 --> 01:21:12.650 And it's clear to me that it is sustainable and it's relatively which soil, 1222 01:21:12.651 --> 01:21:14.840 because you're dealing with the flood plain of the Cooper, 1223 01:21:15.140 --> 01:21:17.420 it's relatively rich soil by Australian standards. 1224 01:21:17.900 --> 01:21:20.930 So I think that there is hope for that sort of, that sort of thing. 1225 01:21:21.950 --> 01:21:25.910 But we've got to remember that we're dealing with a world that will soon have 12 1226 01:21:25.910 --> 01:21:28.880 billion people in it. And, and those areas, you know, 1227 01:21:28.881 --> 01:21:32.720 1700 head of cattle over 4,000 square kilometers. It's not a big resource. 1228 01:21:33.050 --> 01:21:35.570 So I don't know whether we're looking at something that's going to make any 1229 01:21:35.571 --> 01:21:36.890 difference in the longterm. 1230 01:21:38.930 --> 01:21:42.110 Any other could, could we go upstairs to the. 1231 01:21:45.130 --> 01:21:49.610 I'd like to start by making two short quotes by Mahatma 1232 01:21:49.611 --> 01:21:53.180 Gandhi. That lead me to a question that I've had for a long time, 1233 01:21:53.270 --> 01:21:55.940 that I think is somehow tied up with what we're talking about tonight. 1234 01:21:56.780 --> 01:22:00.860 One thing he said was the world has enough for everybody's needs, 1235 01:22:00.890 --> 01:22:05.270 but not for the agreed, which, which we all agree with, I think, 1236 01:22:05.300 --> 01:22:09.200 but the second statement it's been a really challenging one for me. 1237 01:22:09.201 --> 01:22:13.970 He said that the rich must live more simply that the poor may simply live. 1238 01:22:15.770 --> 01:22:19.520 Some have feel that that is tied up with this question that we're talking about 1239 01:22:19.521 --> 01:22:21.380 tonight. And in some way, 1240 01:22:21.381 --> 01:22:24.650 the answer is embodied in there because an ideal that we all hold in the Western 1241 01:22:24.651 --> 01:22:25.484 world, 1242 01:22:25.910 --> 01:22:29.930 but how do we make that step to actually bring that ideal, 1243 01:22:30.050 --> 01:22:33.560 that embodied in that statement, you know, statement of candies to a reality, 1244 01:22:33.740 --> 01:22:36.650 because it's very difficult for us in the Western world brought up in the way we 1245 01:22:36.651 --> 01:22:37.484 have been? 1246 01:22:39.620 --> 01:22:42.500 Actually Ghandi. His coat was slightly different. The first one, 1247 01:22:42.920 --> 01:22:45.530 it didn't say that the world has enough for everyone's need, 1248 01:22:45.531 --> 01:22:48.440 but not for the agreed. He said it has enough for everyone's need, 1249 01:22:48.441 --> 01:22:50.300 but not for some people's greed. 1250 01:22:50.390 --> 01:22:54.110 You just need a few greedy people around to suck up every aquifer. 1251 01:22:58.820 --> 01:22:58.880 [Inaudible]. 1252 01:22:58.880 --> 01:23:01.460 And one of the reasons I am so critical of globalization. 1253 01:23:01.490 --> 01:23:06.220 It is really the first time humanity is attempting to organize itself 1254 01:23:06.520 --> 01:23:09.730 around organized greed and this planet can sustain it. 1255 01:23:15.660 --> 01:23:19.560 The boards are early on holy water, wonderful panel. 1256 01:23:20.040 --> 01:23:24.540 And just talking about recognizing the fact that all life 1257 01:23:24.810 --> 01:23:29.010 is water and therefore it's life is sacred water sacred, 1258 01:23:29.011 --> 01:23:30.900 and we got to start treating it as that. 1259 01:23:30.930 --> 01:23:35.790 But if it is the basis of life and everyone's life is 1260 01:23:35.791 --> 01:23:39.420 sacred, then everyone has a share of water. And I think what, 1261 01:23:39.510 --> 01:23:43.260 instead of trying to spend our heads about water markets, 1262 01:23:43.440 --> 01:23:47.400 what do we need to be thinking about is how do we establish water democracy. 1263 01:23:54.660 --> 01:23:58.200 Regina, do you want to go in on the second half of that one? The rock, 1264 01:23:58.201 --> 01:24:03.120 my soul on the wisdom of Abraham concept around Lazarus and diabetes, 1265 01:24:03.180 --> 01:24:04.500 or do you not want to go there? 1266 01:24:09.840 --> 01:24:13.980 My, my memory, Could you remind us what the second half of your question was. 1267 01:24:14.490 --> 01:24:16.620 Yeah. The, the second quotation you mean of 1268 01:24:19.020 --> 01:24:23.970 the rich must live more simply that the poor may simply live and 1269 01:24:24.270 --> 01:24:28.250 we in the Western world are the rich and how do we bring that ideal, 1270 01:24:28.251 --> 01:24:30.600 which I'm sure we all agree that that's a wonderful idea, 1271 01:24:30.720 --> 01:24:33.180 but how do we actually make the step to bring it to a reality? 1272 01:24:34.020 --> 01:24:35.130 Let me bring my 1273 01:24:36.630 --> 01:24:39.840 supposedly literary expertise to bear on that, 1274 01:24:40.050 --> 01:24:44.490 that statement and ask us to focus on the word live, 1275 01:24:44.550 --> 01:24:49.350 which I think is, is really fraught with meaning and, 1276 01:24:49.351 --> 01:24:50.184 and shifts, 1277 01:24:50.190 --> 01:24:55.110 obviously in the statement if the rich have to live more 1278 01:24:55.111 --> 01:24:59.550 simply, obviously that it means live means one thing there, 1279 01:24:59.551 --> 01:25:03.900 and it means something else when you say so that the poor may simply live exist. 1280 01:25:04.230 --> 01:25:08.970 I think we actually owe each other more than simply 1281 01:25:08.971 --> 01:25:13.200 living in the sense of simply existing and that we should go to the most 1282 01:25:13.201 --> 01:25:17.640 enhanced understanding of live in life and, and do, 1283 01:25:18.090 --> 01:25:22.880 do our damnedest to provide that for one another. We, 1284 01:25:22.900 --> 01:25:27.360 we owe one another more than simply living that at the least it's like saying 1285 01:25:28.080 --> 01:25:29.820 you know, let's tolerate one another. 1286 01:25:29.821 --> 01:25:33.870 Let's let's allow each other to take a breath at the very least let's let's try 1287 01:25:33.871 --> 01:25:34.800 to do even better. 1288 01:25:35.820 --> 01:25:39.510 I think it was meaning more that we have to begin to share what we have with 1289 01:25:39.600 --> 01:25:39.990 them. 1290 01:25:39.990 --> 01:25:42.300 Yes. Oh, overtly obviously. Yes. 1291 01:25:43.770 --> 01:25:44.603 Yes. Ma'am 1292 01:25:46.230 --> 01:25:51.000 both those quotations I think bring out the importance of 1293 01:25:53.340 --> 01:25:58.150 that I bring up the importance of the thought that the our primary sense ought 1294 01:25:58.151 --> 01:26:02.880 to be of obligation, to need rather than responses to rights, 1295 01:26:03.230 --> 01:26:05.200 because after all it's, it's, it's, it's, 1296 01:26:05.450 --> 01:26:09.050 it's appealed to a certain conception of rights that will protect 1297 01:26:10.270 --> 01:26:12.980 the monies and the properties of the greedy. 1298 01:26:13.910 --> 01:26:16.010 And it's only if we can start thinking, 1299 01:26:16.011 --> 01:26:19.310 I think much more fundamentally about people and their needs and their 1300 01:26:19.311 --> 01:26:21.770 obligation to meet and to try to 1301 01:26:23.510 --> 01:26:28.430 undermine some of the reliance we have on the language of rights that we have 1302 01:26:28.431 --> 01:26:31.580 much chance, at least intellectually of convincing people. 1303 01:26:34.360 --> 01:26:36.700 I'm going to have to be the croaking pessimist here in this, this, 1304 01:26:37.510 --> 01:26:39.970 I think how long have we been talking about this? 1305 01:26:40.120 --> 01:26:44.440 How long have we been talking about the need to share and the need to, 1306 01:26:44.450 --> 01:26:49.180 to help the poor? It goes back way beyond Christianity. It goes back forever. 1307 01:26:49.900 --> 01:26:52.600 When has anyone ever done it in a realistic way? 1308 01:26:52.690 --> 01:26:56.380 Show me one idealistic society that has lived by that creed. 1309 01:26:57.760 --> 01:27:00.400 It's not in an highchair. And I choose to, 1310 01:27:00.650 --> 01:27:04.480 to always strive for that, but do we ever do it? 1311 01:27:04.481 --> 01:27:09.400 And at the moment the, our, our, our tenure in the planet hangs in the balance, 1312 01:27:10.540 --> 01:27:10.680 you know, 1313 01:27:10.680 --> 01:27:15.670 and that's why I feel so strongly that it's that fundamental 1314 01:27:15.671 --> 01:27:18.580 issue of, of numbers and technology. 1315 01:27:18.700 --> 01:27:21.070 Those big issues are the things that we, 1316 01:27:21.250 --> 01:27:23.170 we should address because we know that we can affect them. 1317 01:27:24.190 --> 01:27:26.710 The issue of sharing is one. I don't, 1318 01:27:26.920 --> 01:27:29.800 I hate to see us as a deprived species, 1319 01:27:29.801 --> 01:27:34.000 but I don't think at least in the timeframe we've got to deal with this issue, 1320 01:27:34.210 --> 01:27:36.930 that we will make a difference there. We may love to do it. 1321 01:27:36.931 --> 01:27:38.500 It's probably the ideal way to do it, 1322 01:27:39.160 --> 01:27:43.210 but is it possible how many people in this audience would take a half cutting 1323 01:27:43.450 --> 01:27:47.290 pay tonight? If you knew that you could do away with child poverty in Africa? 1324 01:27:53.830 --> 01:27:58.690 I wonder if the checks had to be in the post. I'm not Downing people's goody, 1325 01:27:58.691 --> 01:28:02.590 but I think that it's a really, it's, it's, it's, 1326 01:28:03.250 --> 01:28:04.810 it's a wonderful ideal, 1327 01:28:05.290 --> 01:28:08.950 but probably since we first got up on two legs and started speaking. 1328 01:28:09.940 --> 01:28:14.800 I think when we are talking about conditions of living and 1329 01:28:14.890 --> 01:28:18.520 species survival, we are not talking about checks in the post. 1330 01:28:19.480 --> 01:28:24.460 We are talking about our share of the comments in the atmosphere we are 1331 01:28:24.461 --> 01:28:29.260 talking about not overusing and abusing hydrological 1332 01:28:29.261 --> 01:28:30.094 systems. 1333 01:28:30.580 --> 01:28:35.170 We are basically talking about resources that become scarce because of the 1334 01:28:35.171 --> 01:28:37.330 way we end up handling them. 1335 01:28:38.200 --> 01:28:43.030 And I think that's precisely where that th the issue 1336 01:28:43.031 --> 01:28:47.440 of, about sharing and compassion and the obligation to need comes up. 1337 01:28:47.470 --> 01:28:50.410 Just give you a very simple example. Bolivia, 1338 01:28:50.440 --> 01:28:54.160 the water was privatized with a world bank conditionality Bechtel entered with a 1339 01:28:54.161 --> 01:28:54.994 huge thing. 1340 01:28:55.870 --> 01:29:00.730 It basically meant that people's price for water ended up being four or 1341 01:29:00.731 --> 01:29:02.940 five, more But more important. 1342 01:29:02.941 --> 01:29:07.680 Rural communities were forbidden from drilling Wells or digging Wells in their 1343 01:29:07.681 --> 01:29:10.830 land, because now the water was owned by this water company. 1344 01:29:11.400 --> 01:29:14.850 And it created a rebellion like contemporary Bolivia has not known. 1345 01:29:15.030 --> 01:29:18.960 They eventually through Bechtel out, but I think that's the issue. 1346 01:29:19.140 --> 01:29:22.410 Will it better have the right to say, ah, 1347 01:29:22.650 --> 01:29:27.540 $800 billion market along with other water companies is 1348 01:29:27.541 --> 01:29:28.920 what has to be protected. 1349 01:29:29.430 --> 01:29:33.480 And you will not be able to have access to water in the land where you've 1350 01:29:34.860 --> 01:29:36.480 been born and where an ancestor's war, 1351 01:29:36.720 --> 01:29:41.010 or will a peasant in Bolivia be able to have access to their way. 1352 01:29:41.280 --> 01:29:44.370 And I think that's really the context we're talking about. 1353 01:29:45.150 --> 01:29:45.983 Yes, please. 1354 01:29:47.450 --> 01:29:51.680 I'm pessimistic too, about, about human nature. But, but, 1355 01:29:52.060 --> 01:29:52.521 but I, 1356 01:29:52.521 --> 01:29:57.320 I take it what we think does matter to some degree and if 1357 01:29:57.321 --> 01:29:58.070 that's a, 1358 01:29:58.070 --> 01:30:02.990 then it's better that we should think in ways that condemn the base aspects 1359 01:30:02.991 --> 01:30:06.830 of our nature than to think in ways that encourage and rationalize it. 1360 01:30:07.340 --> 01:30:08.930 And so, you know, I mean, 1361 01:30:08.931 --> 01:30:13.730 it's just awful living in a society where kids just routinely talk 1362 01:30:13.731 --> 01:30:18.490 about losers. We're, we're, we're desperate farmers for, 1363 01:30:18.491 --> 01:30:23.150 for example are being told by by people supporting 1364 01:30:23.151 --> 01:30:26.930 globalization that these poor buggers want the world to stop. 1365 01:30:27.140 --> 01:30:30.740 Won't want to get off until the world or stop all setting tones of great 1366 01:30:30.741 --> 01:30:31.574 contempt. 1367 01:30:33.440 --> 01:30:38.000 If only we could turn that way of speaking about so that someone would be 1368 01:30:38.001 --> 01:30:40.730 ashamed to speak that way about these desperate people. 1369 01:30:49.590 --> 01:30:51.740 [Inaudible] and the other magnificent opportunity. Of course, 1370 01:30:51.770 --> 01:30:55.340 that takes that is different from what Tim just proposed is. Of course, 1371 01:30:55.341 --> 01:30:58.550 Tim asked you if you're going to take a pay cut, in fact, 1372 01:30:58.580 --> 01:31:01.190 the way the next century is coming, you're not being consulted. 1373 01:31:03.560 --> 01:31:04.940 Next question at the top. 1374 01:31:07.220 --> 01:31:11.750 I'd hope that Melvin Fraser would be here tonight because my question really, 1375 01:31:12.170 --> 01:31:16.700 I think, is directed towards him. But seeing as Tim spoke for him, perhaps Tim, 1376 01:31:19.190 --> 01:31:22.130 Tim can fill the question at the moment. 1377 01:31:22.131 --> 01:31:26.390 I think we're in danger of a lost generation of youth 1378 01:31:26.900 --> 01:31:30.410 due to the mismanagement of the whole drugs issue, 1379 01:31:30.950 --> 01:31:33.590 the cuts to education and research. 1380 01:31:33.920 --> 01:31:36.350 We've got 20% youth unemployment. 1381 01:31:37.100 --> 01:31:40.790 We've got the intergenerational effects of separation in the Aboriginal 1382 01:31:40.791 --> 01:31:44.600 communities. We've got high numbers of youth in detention, 1383 01:31:44.601 --> 01:31:46.340 particularly Aboriginal youth. 1384 01:31:47.000 --> 01:31:50.870 We've got the three strikes and you're out in some parts of Australia 1385 01:31:51.860 --> 01:31:53.360 with economic rationalism, 1386 01:31:53.361 --> 01:31:57.830 and it's mad scramble after profits companies are being taken 1387 01:31:57.831 --> 01:32:02.350 overseas, where they exploit cheap labor, including child labor. 1388 01:32:03.280 --> 01:32:07.420 We've got the lack of will to raise the labor standards of the world. 1389 01:32:07.780 --> 01:32:08.613 Instead of that, 1390 01:32:08.620 --> 01:32:12.940 we're trying to reduce our own labor standards down to a lower comment, 1391 01:32:12.941 --> 01:32:17.530 lowest common denominator. So instead of immigration, 1392 01:32:17.980 --> 01:32:18.910 Mr. Absent, 1393 01:32:18.911 --> 01:32:23.740 Malcolm to look after we own these, 1394 01:32:24.730 --> 01:32:25.450 wouldn't it? 1395 01:32:25.450 --> 01:32:30.340 Why isn't the question being asked more often of people from the 1396 01:32:30.341 --> 01:32:32.140 floor and on the platform. 1397 01:32:33.010 --> 01:32:37.540 Why is the government being forced to take the necessary 1398 01:32:37.541 --> 01:32:42.100 steps and the courageous steps to look after our 1399 01:32:42.101 --> 01:32:43.480 own young? 1400 01:32:52.680 --> 01:32:55.920 If I have to pretend to be Malcolm Fraser to answer that one I'm in trouble. 1401 01:32:58.070 --> 01:33:00.270 I suspect that what Malcolm Fraser would say... 1402 01:33:07.770 --> 01:33:12.210 Is that is that we have an obligation in 1403 01:33:12.211 --> 01:33:16.380 terms of immigration that we have where there's international treaties, 1404 01:33:16.381 --> 01:33:17.700 there's a moral obligation, 1405 01:33:17.880 --> 01:33:22.770 which is very strongly felt to alleviate some of the suffering and poverty 1406 01:33:22.771 --> 01:33:27.300 in the world. And that, that has to come at some sort of cost to ourselves. 1407 01:33:27.990 --> 01:33:32.610 The focus on young people, I imagine he's just as appalled at the situation, 1408 01:33:32.611 --> 01:33:34.680 particularly in rural communities for young people, 1409 01:33:34.800 --> 01:33:38.730 as anyone after all he's lived most of his life in one of those communities. 1410 01:33:39.570 --> 01:33:43.500 But just for me, speaking for a moment, I think that there's some fundamental 1411 01:33:45.060 --> 01:33:48.690 that our society faces some fundamental problems. You mentioned the drug issue, 1412 01:33:48.691 --> 01:33:52.830 and today there was a splendid session on the drug issue and problems, 1413 01:33:53.230 --> 01:33:55.950 the drugs representing our society. 1414 01:33:56.010 --> 01:34:00.570 And I came away from that convinced that the drugs 1415 01:34:00.571 --> 01:34:01.980 themselves weren't a problem. 1416 01:34:02.310 --> 01:34:07.200 It was that we had become almost people in suburbia had become 1417 01:34:07.201 --> 01:34:11.070 almost like animals in a zoo. There's not enough for a lot of people to do. 1418 01:34:11.100 --> 01:34:13.020 And in an evolutionary sense, 1419 01:34:13.470 --> 01:34:17.100 we're built to live life in a rather full and complex way. 1420 01:34:17.101 --> 01:34:19.680 And those opportunities just aren't there for many people. 1421 01:34:20.640 --> 01:34:25.170 And so they turn to drugs or other destructive things. And I mean, 1422 01:34:25.270 --> 01:34:27.610 it's great getting high, but in, 1423 01:34:27.611 --> 01:34:31.110 in the Pleistocene or in societies where people are busy, 1424 01:34:31.170 --> 01:34:32.730 you just can't afford to do it all the time. 1425 01:34:32.760 --> 01:34:35.520 So it doesn't become such a big problem. You know, 1426 01:34:35.640 --> 01:34:39.060 people get addicted to everything we learned today to six and to gambling and 1427 01:34:39.061 --> 01:34:42.230 to, to whatever. But it's the affluence of time. It's, 1428 01:34:42.231 --> 01:34:45.620 it's like being an animal in the cage at the zoo. That, 1429 01:34:45.621 --> 01:34:47.340 that that's one of the fundamental problems. 1430 01:34:47.341 --> 01:34:49.860 I don't know whether Malcolm Fraser would agree with that, 1431 01:34:50.040 --> 01:34:53.880 but it seems to me that that trying to address, 1432 01:34:54.060 --> 01:34:55.050 trying to create a site, 1433 01:34:55.140 --> 01:34:59.840 a society where we can somehow meaningfully live in a real 1434 01:34:59.841 --> 01:35:04.700 way and enjoy those simple things that evolution has built us to enjoy 1435 01:35:04.850 --> 01:35:06.050 over millions of years, 1436 01:35:06.051 --> 01:35:09.950 whether it's chopping wood or making a garden or socializing, 1437 01:35:09.951 --> 01:35:14.600 or just having the time of the day split up into regular bits that somehow 1438 01:35:14.601 --> 01:35:19.100 satisfies is something very desirable that this 1439 01:35:19.180 --> 01:35:23.180 society we've built and the technology we've built around us prevent us from 1440 01:35:23.180 --> 01:35:23.181 doing. 1441 01:35:23.181 --> 01:35:26.670 May we have the next. 1442 01:35:27.490 --> 01:35:28.600 Next question at the microphone. 1443 01:35:28.650 --> 01:35:30.430 Can I pick up, 1444 01:35:30.460 --> 01:35:35.140 can I pick up on the comments that were made by Peter Sellers and 1445 01:35:35.170 --> 01:35:39.340 Tim Flannery and add to them a quotation from Thomas Carlyle 1446 01:35:39.790 --> 01:35:40.623 talk, 1447 01:35:40.660 --> 01:35:44.950 which does not end in any kind of action is better suppressed 1448 01:35:45.850 --> 01:35:46.683 altogether. 1449 01:35:46.930 --> 01:35:51.850 What action should we in Adelaide be taking in the next 1450 01:35:51.851 --> 01:35:56.080 12 months to follow up on this admirable feast of 1451 01:35:56.081 --> 01:35:57.010 ideas? 1452 01:36:07.270 --> 01:36:08.200 Mary can 1453 01:36:12.070 --> 01:36:16.330 well your, your, your rubber has met the road on more than one occasion. 1454 01:36:16.360 --> 01:36:19.540 I'm wondering if you would cause you've been so clear about... 1455 01:36:27.940 --> 01:36:30.790 An action that you would like to see come out of this weekend? 1456 01:36:33.400 --> 01:36:35.200 Okay. Can I think about it? 1457 01:36:40.960 --> 01:36:43.720 I think one action that does say, you know, 1458 01:36:43.721 --> 01:36:48.520 I mean this whole idea of, I mean, because the question was about Adelaide, 1459 01:36:48.521 --> 01:36:49.750 it wasn't about that or dune. 1460 01:36:51.490 --> 01:36:56.320 I would just say designing Australian economy 1461 01:36:56.380 --> 01:36:58.720 around the water endowment of Australia, 1462 01:36:59.200 --> 01:37:03.520 including the land use just that one 1463 01:37:03.521 --> 01:37:08.290 simple thing would change hell of a lot. 1464 01:37:09.910 --> 01:37:13.630 Warren, that's over to you now, Warren, I believe. 1465 01:37:13.630 --> 01:37:16.990 Well, I, I thought that that was that's the point I was trying to make. 1466 01:37:17.190 --> 01:37:22.000 And my closing remarks that I think you do need to fact look very 1467 01:37:22.001 --> 01:37:25.480 carefully at the environment, the climate and the soil and what you have. 1468 01:37:25.990 --> 01:37:30.610 And I agree completely that whether you can remake that realistically in a 1469 01:37:30.611 --> 01:37:34.610 global economy and still not starved to death is not clear to me. 1470 01:37:37.090 --> 01:37:41.650 Well actually it's the only way you want staff to death. Otherwise you will. 1471 01:37:42.190 --> 01:37:45.570 I said, let the, as I, my, I meant to say anyway, 1472 01:37:45.840 --> 01:37:48.990 let's us debate these questions. And I think I phrased it is the, 1473 01:37:48.991 --> 01:37:52.120 there are several questions that need debating. I don't know the answers, 1474 01:37:52.121 --> 01:37:56.160 but I think these are the kinds of things that should come out of this forum is 1475 01:37:56.161 --> 01:37:58.830 that these are several debates that should occur, 1476 01:37:58.980 --> 01:38:01.320 but get some experts in different opinions. 1477 01:38:04.320 --> 01:38:07.650 I think Carlisle's put an entirely new spin on scotch Pasomany, 1478 01:38:08.030 --> 01:38:11.880 I've never heard of anything spectacular, but really if, 1479 01:38:11.900 --> 01:38:14.820 if I was to have my wish out of this festival, it was, 1480 01:38:14.880 --> 01:38:18.360 it would be that we would work towards a society where we could hold this 1481 01:38:18.361 --> 01:38:20.070 festival again in two years, 1482 01:38:20.071 --> 01:38:24.660 time profitably with as larger crowds in a place like Elizabeth or one of the 1483 01:38:24.930 --> 01:38:26.580 less affluent areas of South Australia. 1484 01:38:33.410 --> 01:38:34.730 Thank you. Could I add to that one. 1485 01:38:34.820 --> 01:38:38.120 How do we get more young people along to these festivals? 1486 01:38:38.990 --> 01:38:42.530 Well, I think primarily it's having more young people on the panel. 1487 01:38:43.610 --> 01:38:48.380 I think right now we are in a situation where we have way more to 1488 01:38:48.381 --> 01:38:52.550 learn than to teach in many cases and at the moment 1489 01:38:53.600 --> 01:38:58.100 we're not listening. And I think that question of allowing the next generation, 1490 01:38:58.101 --> 01:39:01.220 that is anything but apathetic, but actually it's quite on the case. 1491 01:39:01.221 --> 01:39:03.860 And there are any number of people in the streets of Melbourne who can young 1492 01:39:03.861 --> 01:39:06.110 people who can tell you a lot more about most of these issues, 1493 01:39:06.260 --> 01:39:08.000 then you'll read in any issue of the newspaper. 1494 01:39:08.720 --> 01:39:13.580 What's very powerful is the level of activism that is 1495 01:39:13.581 --> 01:39:14.960 moving across a new generation. 1496 01:39:14.961 --> 01:39:18.950 And that is the renewable resource and it is renewing itself. 1497 01:39:19.520 --> 01:39:21.470 And it's very powerful. 1498 01:39:21.471 --> 01:39:25.970 And obviously here in south Australia where we've all seen the studies that this 1499 01:39:25.971 --> 01:39:30.200 is an aging shrinking population, there will be no young people here soon. 1500 01:39:30.230 --> 01:39:33.530 And anybody who has any talent better get on the next train, 1501 01:39:33.590 --> 01:39:35.690 I think to Darwin would be bar that's going. 1502 01:39:39.560 --> 01:39:44.030 The question is what opportunities are being offered to young people here 1503 01:39:44.630 --> 01:39:49.190 to in some pathbreaking way actually create a society that does live 1504 01:39:49.191 --> 01:39:50.024 differently. 1505 01:39:50.360 --> 01:39:54.410 That has actually a different cultural underpinning. 1506 01:39:54.440 --> 01:39:57.680 I think one of the most powerful things about rave culture, 1507 01:39:57.710 --> 01:40:01.250 about all kinds of cultural manifestations of young people, 1508 01:40:01.251 --> 01:40:05.930 which are endlessly criticized is the fact that they're way more democratic 1509 01:40:06.020 --> 01:40:09.020 and way more acknowledging the existing resources. 1510 01:40:10.550 --> 01:40:12.680 And I think that's very, very profound. 1511 01:40:12.980 --> 01:40:16.640 A lot of solutions are emerging for young people right now. 1512 01:40:17.030 --> 01:40:19.940 And the question is they're being not being empowered. 1513 01:40:20.930 --> 01:40:25.100 And obviously most of our governmental structures are 1514 01:40:25.370 --> 01:40:28.370 primarily weighted by the most powerful lobbyists. 1515 01:40:29.240 --> 01:40:32.630 And the question is, in what ways will the best ideas prevail? 1516 01:40:33.380 --> 01:40:34.430 I think a very, 1517 01:40:34.431 --> 01:40:39.320 very serious step in south Australia would be the privileging of 1518 01:40:39.500 --> 01:40:40.333 youth. 1519 01:40:49.250 --> 01:40:50.030 I like just, 1520 01:40:50.030 --> 01:40:54.580 just register a protest against carlisle because you know, it's, 1521 01:40:54.750 --> 01:40:58.260 it's very important to act obviously, but one of them are very great figures in, 1522 01:40:58.261 --> 01:41:01.780 in at least in the Western tradition has been Socrates who spent his life 1523 01:41:01.781 --> 01:41:06.070 talking and it's necessary to have the Socrates who spend their life 1524 01:41:06.280 --> 01:41:11.170 talking to put a break on some of the people who want to act and don't care a 1525 01:41:11.440 --> 01:41:12.460 about the means. 1526 01:41:17.970 --> 01:41:17.970 [Inaudible] 1527 01:41:17.970 --> 01:41:17.970 . I Also Profoundly, Obviously I'm Going To Disagree With Someone Who Says That There's, That It's Mere Conversation. If I Think Conversation Is In Fact The Way We Need To Go. and in terms of a suggestion, I would make your la 1528 01:41:17.970 --> 01:41:17.970 mence heard s 1529 01:41:17.970 --> 01:41:17.970 o that they can be answered by the appropriate people. That is an enhanced sense of conversation. So figure out who needs to hear whether it's politicians or NGO, they don't listen. Yeah. Well, keep talking, keep, keep, and keep lamenting and 1530 01:41:17.970 --> 01:41:17.970 , a 1531 01:41:17.970 --> 01:41:18.803 nd, and, you know, don't stop. I'd love to pick up on that in a moment, but let's go back out. Yes. Thank you. 1532 01:42:04.140 --> 01:42:08.340 I'd just like to propose something it's 1533 01:42:08.520 --> 01:42:13.500 apropos of sharing and inviting the youth and having the politicians 1534 01:42:13.530 --> 01:42:14.363 listen. 1535 01:42:15.990 --> 01:42:19.380 I'd wanted to do this for some time and just put it out to people who may be on 1536 01:42:19.390 --> 01:42:20.580 to make this a reality. 1537 01:42:22.230 --> 01:42:27.180 We could create here in Adelaide an open public library, 1538 01:42:27.690 --> 01:42:32.310 especially dedicated to solutions for these problems that we 1539 01:42:32.311 --> 01:42:36.450 have addressed in this wonderful festival ideas. 1540 01:42:37.530 --> 01:42:41.760 Just call it the solutions library and the books, for example, 1541 01:42:42.090 --> 01:42:44.910 have a Chanel Schaumburg, sorry, 1542 01:42:45.270 --> 01:42:48.630 a water expert whose works are very hard to find. 1543 01:42:49.471 --> 01:42:52.080 He has many suggestions of how to revive a river. 1544 01:42:52.440 --> 01:42:55.560 He wrote in the 1930s and he's still not widely known. 1545 01:42:56.580 --> 01:43:01.170 His briefly his ideas were to plant along the banks to provide 1546 01:43:01.171 --> 01:43:04.590 shade because rivers need cooling because when they heat up all sorts of 1547 01:43:05.130 --> 01:43:07.530 biological things happen, which are not good for water. 1548 01:43:08.100 --> 01:43:12.870 And to put shaming at the side of rivers to focus a vortex in the center, 1549 01:43:12.871 --> 01:43:15.330 which automatically cleans the river and aerates it. 1550 01:43:15.331 --> 01:43:19.590 That's two of the very excellent and cheap ideas that he had. 1551 01:43:19.920 --> 01:43:23.880 And I'm sure that a lot of young people would love to be employed in creating 1552 01:43:23.881 --> 01:43:27.570 these structured artificial structures and implanting. 1553 01:43:27.780 --> 01:43:31.800 They would enjoy that it would be good work and they would feel deeply empowered 1554 01:43:31.830 --> 01:43:36.810 in changing things for the better. That's just one example. 1555 01:43:36.811 --> 01:43:37.510 There were, of course, 1556 01:43:37.510 --> 01:43:40.830 the works of Suzanne George in the transnational Institute in Paris, 1557 01:43:40.831 --> 01:43:44.070 which are very hard to find even the Mitchell library in Sydney has only one 1558 01:43:44.071 --> 01:43:44.940 copy. I believe, 1559 01:43:45.240 --> 01:43:48.240 I think they bought got another copy now of her work since I made such a fuss 1560 01:43:48.241 --> 01:43:51.770 about it, but they do listen, but people don't know even exist. 1561 01:43:51.800 --> 01:43:56.210 Most people once people had read those also the works of Fritjof Capra 1562 01:43:56.840 --> 01:44:00.680 turning point. For example, we have the models of our society are explored. 1563 01:44:00.681 --> 01:44:03.980 That was 1979. And most people still don't have know where they exist. 1564 01:44:04.850 --> 01:44:07.670 And of course his latest book, the web of life, 1565 01:44:08.120 --> 01:44:11.000 which is about everything we've been speaking of here, 1566 01:44:11.750 --> 01:44:15.800 most people can easily access that knowledge and it'll give them the language 1567 01:44:16.340 --> 01:44:21.170 and the ability to understand what's happening without being experts. 1568 01:44:21.650 --> 01:44:22.483 Thank you. 1569 01:44:22.610 --> 01:44:27.530 I just like to say in closing that what will it profit a man if he 1570 01:44:27.531 --> 01:44:30.110 controls the whole world and loses his soul? 1571 01:44:38.590 --> 01:44:43.180 Although the the topic and focus today has been Australia and Adelaide and wash 1572 01:44:43.181 --> 01:44:44.410 and population in Australia, 1573 01:44:44.470 --> 01:44:48.730 I'd like to address a couple of questions to Dr. Shiva about India. If I could, 1574 01:44:49.090 --> 01:44:51.940 as India as a most fascinating country and culture. 1575 01:44:52.570 --> 01:44:56.380 And the first question relates to the fact that I understand that India and 1576 01:44:56.381 --> 01:45:00.460 China are sort of naked, naked becoming the world's most populated country. 1577 01:45:00.520 --> 01:45:05.410 And is there any will in India to try to stabilize the population in India? 1578 01:45:06.520 --> 01:45:10.510 And the second question I'll, I'll I'll hold until you answer that one. 1579 01:45:12.310 --> 01:45:13.270 Well, the second question, 1580 01:45:13.271 --> 01:45:16.300 I might get it out in case you forget to come back to my pillar is that I 1581 01:45:16.301 --> 01:45:19.990 understand India and China are both rapidly industrializing and their, 1582 01:45:19.991 --> 01:45:22.870 that their greenhouse gas emissions are increasing quite rapidly. 1583 01:45:23.110 --> 01:45:27.070 And I just wondered if Dr. Shiva could tell us if she knows the contribution of 1584 01:45:27.071 --> 01:45:31.540 India to the world's greenhouse gas emissions as a, as a total, as a percentage. 1585 01:45:33.790 --> 01:45:38.110 Very quickly to the first one India's doing a lot. 1586 01:45:38.140 --> 01:45:42.940 It's just that the target oriented population control systems don't work, 1587 01:45:43.150 --> 01:45:46.600 but in many states, there is a very, 1588 01:45:46.601 --> 01:45:49.120 very radical decline in population growth. 1589 01:45:49.450 --> 01:45:54.310 And the state that cited most frequently is the state of Carola. Now, 1590 01:45:54.311 --> 01:45:56.140 the interesting thing about the state of Carolina, 1591 01:45:56.170 --> 01:46:01.030 they didn't have reduced population growth through coercive 1592 01:46:01.031 --> 01:46:04.540 measures. They had the three equity, they had the through land reform. 1593 01:46:05.290 --> 01:46:08.110 And if you just look back at history, 1594 01:46:08.320 --> 01:46:12.820 the big boom in population happened in England. 1595 01:46:12.850 --> 01:46:16.810 When the comments were enclosed and the sheep started to eat men 1596 01:46:17.920 --> 01:46:21.070 and the displaced, disposable people, some of them came here, 1597 01:46:21.430 --> 01:46:26.020 convicts preferred coming here, sent here. The rest went to north America 1598 01:46:28.300 --> 01:46:32.740 in the same way, the population of India till 1800 was very, very stable. You, 1599 01:46:32.741 --> 01:46:37.660 you talked about self limiting factors, population explosion, as it's called. 1600 01:46:37.750 --> 01:46:41.590 I don't like the term, because really sounds like women's wounds. I exploding. 1601 01:46:41.830 --> 01:46:42.790 There's some kind of warm, 1602 01:46:43.420 --> 01:46:48.160 but it's a rational response response of dispossessed people trying to 1603 01:46:48.161 --> 01:46:51.660 find security when every other security has been taken away. 1604 01:46:51.900 --> 01:46:56.790 So I would basically say that you're going to have a huge problem at 1605 01:46:56.791 --> 01:47:01.200 your hands. If you have made large numbers of people, dispensable, 1606 01:47:02.550 --> 01:47:07.470 and the best population pill is ecological security 1607 01:47:07.530 --> 01:47:10.830 and economic security and Carola shows the way in that. 1608 01:47:11.040 --> 01:47:15.210 We just need to take it more seriously in terms of your second question. 1609 01:47:15.270 --> 01:47:16.770 I don't know the exact figures, 1610 01:47:16.800 --> 01:47:21.000 but there has been part of globalization has been the 1611 01:47:21.001 --> 01:47:25.980 relocating of sea of CO2 pollution into 1612 01:47:26.490 --> 01:47:27.900 the countries like China and India. 1613 01:47:28.110 --> 01:47:32.250 Globalization is about Enron being able to set up power plants in India, 1614 01:47:32.760 --> 01:47:35.850 the GM and Ford and Mitsubishi selling cars. 1615 01:47:36.300 --> 01:47:39.630 The thing I really worry about is the population explosion of cars on the 1616 01:47:39.631 --> 01:47:41.610 streets of Delhi. I can't walk down the streets 1617 01:47:44.960 --> 01:47:47.660 And that's part of the globalization phenomenon. 1618 01:47:47.661 --> 01:47:49.220 We need to do something about it. 1619 01:47:49.221 --> 01:47:54.080 And I'm among those in India who do not support the fact that it's all right, 1620 01:47:54.081 --> 01:47:58.790 as long as we emit the CO2, because first of all, the Indian people, 1621 01:47:58.791 --> 01:47:59.624 don't, 1622 01:48:00.230 --> 01:48:04.310 it's a globalized economic system wanting to create a consumer middle-class in 1623 01:48:04.311 --> 01:48:09.020 India and replicate the fifth, 14% consumer pack consumption patterns, 1624 01:48:09.021 --> 01:48:10.280 which are not replicable. 1625 01:48:11.750 --> 01:48:15.260 And I think we have lots of alternatives that are being squashed. They have, 1626 01:48:15.290 --> 01:48:16.790 you know, the pollution in Delhi, 1627 01:48:16.791 --> 01:48:21.590 70% is of it comes from vehicular pollution and guess what they start to 1628 01:48:21.591 --> 01:48:23.390 do to clean up the city, 1629 01:48:24.320 --> 01:48:26.990 shut down the cycles and the cycle rickshaws, 1630 01:48:28.700 --> 01:48:33.470 and this notion of cleanliness that mutates from CO2 emission to 1631 01:48:33.471 --> 01:48:37.700 people and suddenly population becomes the polluting factor. 1632 01:48:37.880 --> 01:48:41.960 I think those are some of the confusions that are really creating a mess, 1633 01:48:42.080 --> 01:48:45.740 but you can be absolutely sure India's ecology movement is going to take on the 1634 01:48:45.741 --> 01:48:47.120 fossil fuel culture. 1635 01:48:47.270 --> 01:48:52.070 That's replacing our renewable energy culture very rapidly because long before 1636 01:48:52.071 --> 01:48:54.050 that CO2 destabilizes the climate, 1637 01:48:54.170 --> 01:48:57.350 it has displaced the person and destroyed the livelihoods. 1638 01:49:05.730 --> 01:49:08.790 Let's have our last question and then we'll close. 1639 01:49:10.381 --> 01:49:13.890 I've got a question. It's more of a wish actually, but first I'm going to say, 1640 01:49:13.891 --> 01:49:15.990 as a young person here, I don't feel hopeless. 1641 01:49:16.020 --> 01:49:20.130 I feel very burdened and overwhelmed, but I don't feel hopeless. 1642 01:49:20.131 --> 01:49:23.700 What makes me feel hopeless as being told that I'm apathetic and that I have no 1643 01:49:23.701 --> 01:49:26.970 choices. My, 1644 01:49:27.030 --> 01:49:31.800 my wish is that I would like to see abundance and generosity 1645 01:49:31.801 --> 01:49:36.660 applied in terms of our attitudes and policies towards refugees and 1646 01:49:36.750 --> 01:49:39.930 immigration. And I'd also, 1647 01:49:41.040 --> 01:49:44.970 I'd like to throw that open to Vandana and Regina because they seem to be 1648 01:49:44.971 --> 01:49:48.610 offering things in, in, in that order. And 1649 01:49:50.290 --> 01:49:52.000 a question I guess, for team is 1650 01:49:54.070 --> 01:49:58.660 is by closing our borders saying, well, it's us, you know, we choose us. 1651 01:49:59.180 --> 01:50:02.020 And, and what does that mean? Thank you. 1652 01:50:07.500 --> 01:50:11.040 The first thing on on migration, 1653 01:50:12.090 --> 01:50:13.890 nobody likes to leave home. 1654 01:50:15.600 --> 01:50:19.710 The best place is home till it's made, made, and viable to be there. 1655 01:50:21.330 --> 01:50:24.810 And globalization is going to create refugees of scales. 1656 01:50:24.810 --> 01:50:29.430 We've not known before because sustainable society and 1657 01:50:29.431 --> 01:50:34.350 societies with livelihoods will have increasingly redundant 1658 01:50:34.351 --> 01:50:39.030 people and people will find whatever means they can to follow the cash 1659 01:50:39.060 --> 01:50:39.900 wherever it's flowing, 1660 01:50:40.770 --> 01:50:44.130 just like they follow the soil and they follow the water, 1661 01:50:45.540 --> 01:50:50.340 they follow the money and an unequal world raging where devaluation 1662 01:50:50.341 --> 01:50:51.750 destroys our currency. 1663 01:50:52.500 --> 01:50:56.280 Our farmers are uprooted will mean that more and more, you know, 1664 01:50:56.281 --> 01:51:00.900 you remember the Chinese who froze to death in a freezer and 1665 01:51:01.170 --> 01:51:05.400 the Indian sick boys who drowned in the 1666 01:51:05.401 --> 01:51:09.960 Mediterranean that's kind of phenomena is a symptom 1667 01:51:10.320 --> 01:51:14.850 of the theft of livelihoods and economic security from people. Now, 1668 01:51:15.090 --> 01:51:19.830 I would say the first step is really to rebuild societies 1669 01:51:20.010 --> 01:51:24.900 where people have meaning place and 1670 01:51:24.930 --> 01:51:28.590 economic security. And then in addition to that, 1671 01:51:28.591 --> 01:51:31.350 have the generosity to receive people when they want to come to our home. 1672 01:51:33.600 --> 01:51:34.433 Thank you. 1673 01:51:39.720 --> 01:51:43.830 It seems to me that the twin issues of 1674 01:51:43.890 --> 01:51:48.240 exile and conquests are preoccupations of people 1675 01:51:48.600 --> 01:51:51.240 who focus a great deal on, 1676 01:51:51.420 --> 01:51:55.650 on property and on owning land and on the 1677 01:51:55.740 --> 01:51:58.080 borders of their own land. 1678 01:51:58.980 --> 01:52:03.840 And I think those borders really have to be permeable for us 1679 01:52:03.870 --> 01:52:08.700 not to be a violent society and allow people to flow 1680 01:52:08.701 --> 01:52:09.470 out and, 1681 01:52:09.470 --> 01:52:14.220 and flow in as the water flows as the river of 1682 01:52:14.221 --> 01:52:18.900 life. So I, I think it's quite tragic to, 1683 01:52:18.990 --> 01:52:19.823 to 1684 01:52:21.510 --> 01:52:24.390 think in terms of possession as much as we do. 1685 01:52:24.391 --> 01:52:29.010 And I think we have a lot to learn from the native peoples in the, 1686 01:52:29.070 --> 01:52:32.250 in the land both in the natives, 1687 01:52:32.251 --> 01:52:36.840 in the United States and Aboriginal peoples here who have all this respect for 1688 01:52:36.841 --> 01:52:41.130 land without the concept of ownership, 1689 01:52:41.670 --> 01:52:46.340 this conference began by thanking the Ghana people for 1690 01:52:46.760 --> 01:52:50.870 welcoming us to their land. But the rhetoric was, 1691 01:52:50.930 --> 01:52:53.870 was filled with the language of ownership, 1692 01:52:53.871 --> 01:52:57.860 which seemed to be at odds as well-meaning, as that was, 1693 01:52:58.130 --> 01:53:02.630 as that gratitude was it seemed to be at odds with the very 1694 01:53:02.631 --> 01:53:07.580 understanding of land that indigenous peoples have as something to 1695 01:53:07.581 --> 01:53:11.330 be tended, cared for and held to be sacred, but not owned. 1696 01:53:12.380 --> 01:53:13.610 So that would be my response. 1697 01:53:17.840 --> 01:53:19.300 I'd just like to clarify, 1698 01:53:19.301 --> 01:53:23.080 I've never believed or suggested that we should close Australia's borders. 1699 01:53:23.140 --> 01:53:26.290 I think that there was always going to be a need for an immigration program in 1700 01:53:26.291 --> 01:53:27.124 Australia. 1701 01:53:27.370 --> 01:53:32.230 The problem that I see is that we don't have a population policy that informs 1702 01:53:32.231 --> 01:53:36.010 that immigration program. So we don't have a population policy, 1703 01:53:36.011 --> 01:53:38.710 which has the wide support of the Australian people, 1704 01:53:39.040 --> 01:53:43.810 which then allows us to all see that immigration is serving the good of the 1705 01:53:43.811 --> 01:53:47.560 country, because the first thing, I mean, if the first thing, 1706 01:53:47.561 --> 01:53:50.920 any sort of immigration program or population policy has to do is to serve the 1707 01:53:50.921 --> 01:53:53.320 interest of those who support it otherwise they won't support it. 1708 01:53:53.830 --> 01:53:58.180 And what we're seeing in Australia at the moment is a withdrawal of support from 1709 01:53:58.181 --> 01:53:59.470 the immigration program. 1710 01:53:59.680 --> 01:54:03.670 And that adds up to a very serious problem because there is many people who 1711 01:54:03.671 --> 01:54:05.410 don't make migrants feel welcome. 1712 01:54:06.250 --> 01:54:08.830 There is the way we deal with them as often and dignified. 1713 01:54:08.890 --> 01:54:10.780 It makes them very resentful. 1714 01:54:10.930 --> 01:54:14.980 It starts building divisions in society that don't necessarily need to be there. 1715 01:54:15.250 --> 01:54:19.060 So we need to have a debate, as I said about the population policy, 1716 01:54:19.420 --> 01:54:22.960 that immigration program can be part of beyond that though, 1717 01:54:22.961 --> 01:54:27.220 the issues that you both identified as so critical because we, we in Australia, 1718 01:54:27.221 --> 01:54:31.810 we see that we are doing some human good in terms of 1719 01:54:31.830 --> 01:54:34.750 immigration program as well. We're helping immigrants come to Australia, 1720 01:54:34.990 --> 01:54:39.970 but we don't ever think through that totality of what we're willing to give or 1721 01:54:39.971 --> 01:54:42.430 willing to spend, to increase human. Good. 1722 01:54:42.670 --> 01:54:45.790 And I think I would love to see a population policy of which an immigration 1723 01:54:45.791 --> 01:54:50.410 programs apart, but then a budget for increasing good in the world, 1724 01:54:50.411 --> 01:54:53.020 which includes foreign aid, the immigration component, 1725 01:54:53.230 --> 01:54:56.560 and look through and see if we can spend that in a way that maximizes the good 1726 01:54:56.561 --> 01:54:59.560 that we can do. We're not gods. So we can't change the world. 1727 01:54:59.561 --> 01:55:03.730 We're a small nation at WARF nation in a world with problems. 1728 01:55:04.000 --> 01:55:07.660 And we need to just think through rationally how we can get the best outcome. 1729 01:55:07.780 --> 01:55:09.970 And we're failing to do that quite singularly at the moment. 1730 01:55:16.840 --> 01:55:21.460 Just really briefly I would respond by admiring how 1731 01:55:21.461 --> 01:55:22.660 practical you are, 1732 01:55:22.840 --> 01:55:27.820 but worrying about the cost of giving seems a little 1733 01:55:27.821 --> 01:55:32.350 ironic to me. I mean, I th I think giving is free. So yeah. 1734 01:55:32.710 --> 01:55:34.960 If everyone agreed, I think that would be wonderful. 1735 01:55:35.680 --> 01:55:37.990 We would have a different world. Yeah. That's why you're here. 1736 01:55:37.991 --> 01:55:40.030 And I'm here to get people to think this way, 1737 01:55:42.430 --> 01:55:43.263 basically. 1738 01:55:43.830 --> 01:55:45.720 Thinking of your thing, 1739 01:55:46.170 --> 01:55:50.730 you need an immigration policy that allows us Trillia to decide what's 1740 01:55:51.060 --> 01:55:52.980 good for Australia. Who's good to bring in. 1741 01:55:53.940 --> 01:55:57.060 And I was just thinking of the cherry picking that's going off of India, 1742 01:55:57.061 --> 01:55:59.700 software professionals. India is a fascinating country. 1743 01:56:00.270 --> 01:56:04.500 80% of India has been declared redundant by the global economy and the software 1744 01:56:04.830 --> 01:56:07.440 professionals. Everyone wants one cherry pick. 1745 01:56:07.770 --> 01:56:10.440 Everyone's got giving green cards. Everyone wants them, 1746 01:56:10.830 --> 01:56:12.630 but then the day they are useless, 1747 01:56:12.631 --> 01:56:17.070 they're sent right back as happened with the collapse of the information 1748 01:56:17.071 --> 01:56:20.610 technology stops and the closure of firms in the United States. 1749 01:56:21.900 --> 01:56:24.120 There's a big debate going on in the WTO, 1750 01:56:24.300 --> 01:56:27.960 in the general agreement on trade and services. Interesting debate. 1751 01:56:27.961 --> 01:56:31.830 And it's worth watching because the third world countries are basically saying 1752 01:56:31.831 --> 01:56:36.120 you've globalized the movement of capital and made it totally free and mobile. 1753 01:56:37.140 --> 01:56:41.220 And the only way you will bring balance back into a global economy is make the 1754 01:56:41.221 --> 01:56:44.970 movement of people equally free. Because after all, it's a factor of production. 1755 01:56:46.440 --> 01:56:51.390 Now that's the big tussle on how services issues will be addressed. 1756 01:56:52.070 --> 01:56:56.080 The corporations want a solution where they're saying, yeah, 1757 01:56:56.100 --> 01:57:00.150 we do want movement of people, but we will offer them special gaps, 1758 01:57:00.180 --> 01:57:04.740 visas in which we will go find the people we want to take. 1759 01:57:04.741 --> 01:57:07.020 They'll have no immigration control. 1760 01:57:08.040 --> 01:57:11.790 They will have no social security in the country they come to and they can be 1761 01:57:11.791 --> 01:57:13.680 sent back the day we finished using them. 1762 01:57:14.010 --> 01:57:17.520 I think one of the lessons I take from this evening is returning statement to 1763 01:57:17.521 --> 01:57:20.820 stop thinking of other people, other cultures, 1764 01:57:20.850 --> 01:57:25.770 in an instrumental way of usable and nature and water, 1765 01:57:26.220 --> 01:57:28.800 usable, exploitable and disposable. 1766 01:57:29.580 --> 01:57:32.670 I think that's the mentality we really need to transcend. 1767 01:57:44.350 --> 01:57:45.230 [Inaudible] In closing me, 1768 01:57:45.231 --> 01:57:50.030 I asked each panelist for one last thought to 1769 01:57:50.031 --> 01:57:51.440 close the 1770 01:57:52.220 --> 01:57:56.720 2001 Adelaide festival of 1771 01:57:56.721 --> 01:58:00.170 ideas that we will leave Adelaide with, 1772 01:58:00.590 --> 01:58:04.940 or is that people satisfied, Raimond? 1773 01:58:05.870 --> 01:58:07.460 This was just a comment taking up. 1774 01:58:11.070 --> 01:58:13.220 It, it follows up my little comment about, about, 1775 01:58:13.221 --> 01:58:15.290 about needing people who talk a lot. 1776 01:58:16.310 --> 01:58:20.270 So the brakes might be put on people who act a lot because I don't care a about 1777 01:58:20.271 --> 01:58:23.000 the memes they choose for their enemies. 1778 01:58:24.270 --> 01:58:27.890 And it, it, it's, it's, 1779 01:58:27.980 --> 01:58:32.510 it's opposing this sort of instrumental conception of rationality. 1780 01:58:33.040 --> 01:58:34.670 That seems so fundamental. 1781 01:58:34.671 --> 01:58:38.810 And for us to remember that as well as thinking about meetings that are 1782 01:58:38.811 --> 01:58:43.030 efficient to certain ends, we other modes of discriminating, 1783 01:58:43.031 --> 01:58:46.240 which means to choose. And one of them, 1784 01:58:46.270 --> 01:58:49.750 one of the modes of discrimination is a moral ones. We might say, 1785 01:58:49.930 --> 01:58:53.000 this would be very, very efficient and achieve a hell, hell. 1786 01:58:53.530 --> 01:58:57.940 Maybe even achieve a lot of human goods, but it would be decent to do it. 1787 01:58:58.510 --> 01:59:03.160 And so we have to pronounce it that I think is a thought we have to keep holding 1788 01:59:03.161 --> 01:59:07.510 on so that we might sometimes be forced in the interest of 1789 01:59:07.511 --> 01:59:11.590 decency to announce enormously efficient means to good ends. 1790 01:59:21.510 --> 01:59:26.190 Other well, that was a lovely statement. 1791 01:59:26.191 --> 01:59:28.110 That was a very beautiful statement. 1792 01:59:28.170 --> 01:59:32.850 And could I please add just briefly that people have said earlier, 1793 01:59:32.851 --> 01:59:37.020 politicians don't listen. Well, it's a question of how we're talking. 1794 01:59:37.021 --> 01:59:42.000 And I think Regina's use of the word lament and praise is one of the most 1795 01:59:42.210 --> 01:59:47.010 powerful paradigms we've actually been offered is first of 1796 01:59:47.011 --> 01:59:49.980 all, we're living in a society that is masking the true cost, 1797 01:59:50.520 --> 01:59:51.720 the true human costs. 1798 01:59:53.070 --> 01:59:56.100 How do we express that in a way that people can't miss it? 1799 01:59:57.600 --> 02:00:00.840 How is that really expressed in a way you must hear? 1800 02:00:02.730 --> 02:00:07.680 And also we live in a very negative cycle at the moment where people are trying 1801 02:00:07.681 --> 02:00:10.080 to improve the world by making everyone else feel terrible. 1802 02:00:11.550 --> 02:00:14.940 And actually it is the act of praise, which is renewing. 1803 02:00:15.900 --> 02:00:18.000 It is the actor joy, which is renewing. 1804 02:00:19.470 --> 02:00:21.120 It is the act of hope, 1805 02:00:21.180 --> 02:00:25.620 which is the renewable resource and needs to be cultivated, practiced, 1806 02:00:25.680 --> 02:00:30.120 and extended. Thank you for attending this weekend.