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<v Dr Kristin Alford>Welcome everyone to this next session as part of the Adelaide Festival of Ideas.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>My name is Dr. Kristen Alford and I'll be chairing the panel with Dr. Fiona Kerr and David Hobbs this morning.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>A couple of bits of housekeeping as we start.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>Please make sure your mobile phone is on silent.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>But you're very, very welcome to tweet, Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, whatever you like to do.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>And the hashtag is hash ADL FOI.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>Tweet handle is the same and it's the same for Instagram.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>Unauthorised recordings of any kind are not permitted during the session though so please don't video.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>And today's session is being audio recorded by Radio Adelaide on behalf of the Adelaide Festival of Ideas for future broadcasts.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>So there's something to keep in mind if you do ask any questions as well that you will be recorded.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>So I'm delighted to be joined by David and Fiona.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>David is a researcher at Flinders University.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>He has a long history in rehabilitation engineering looking at assistive technologies.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>And when we were talking before some of the projects he was talking,

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>about were, that's better, sorry, I can hear a squeal.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>Some of the projects we were talking about was his PhD thesis in particularly on developing

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>and testing gaming technologies for children with cerebral palsy.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>And how you might use technologies to improve body function.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>Dr. Fiona Kerr is an industry professor at University of Adelaide.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>As a neuroscientist and systems engineer she's been working a lot

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>in that human technology interaction space across many sectors especially in defence and health.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>And when we were talking earlier she said one

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>of her other interests is building new brains.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>I had to check whether that was artificial brains or human brains but it is

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>about building the capacity of the human brain, some of her other work.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>So we might actually start with you Fiona.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>A little bit around what particularly are you thinking about when you're looking

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>at artificial intelligence at the moment?

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>How does that relate to your current area of work with a range of industries?

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>So one of the things I'm looking at is how do we shape each other,

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<v Speaker 2>hence looking at how we build our own brains.

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<v Speaker 2>How do we shape technology?

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<v Speaker 2>How does technology shape us?

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<v Speaker 2>And therefore how should we be shaping the world that we want?

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<v Speaker 2>Part of the thing that drives me is that we are technologised and we're going to be technologised.

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<v Speaker 2>And instead of the conversation that very often starts to become very simplistic which is,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it's going to be a terrible thing, it's going to be a wonderful thing,

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<v Speaker 2>we tend to oversimplify and polarise that kind of whole discussion.

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<v Speaker 2>Instead of being able to say,

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<v Speaker 2>the question shapes the system.

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<v Speaker 2>So if we can be more clear about what we want the world to look like,

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<v Speaker 2>and then how can AI and technology enable that,

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<v Speaker 2>we can actually get much better and much different answers.

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<v Speaker 2>So a lot of my work is around understanding how humans neurophysiologically impact each other

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<v Speaker 2>and are impacted by technology so that we have a much better understanding of how to design

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<v Speaker 2>and use artificial intelligence.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's one important piece that I'd like us to support and support us and support us

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<v Speaker 2>and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us

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<v Speaker 2>and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us

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<v Speaker 2>and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us

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<v Speaker 2>and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us

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<v Speaker 2>and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us

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<v Speaker 2>and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us

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<v Speaker 2>and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us

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<v Speaker 2>and support us and support us and support us and support us

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<v Speaker 2>to be clear about what we want, the way that we want to live and work. And then AI, because AI is

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<v Speaker 2>quite neutral, although it favours those who control and design it. So how do we control it

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<v Speaker 2>and how do we design it? Because it can be a fantastic enabler or it can be something which

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<v Speaker 2>makes our life worse. It's very much up to us. So that's what I deal with. Is there anything

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>different in terms of that enabling technology around artificial intelligence specifically,

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>or is this a common theme with many of the technologies that have hit us,

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>like the internet or like a social media wave? Is there something particularly different around AI?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes. There's a few, well, there's lots, but there's a couple of major areas. One is that

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<v Speaker 2>it is all pervasive. So AI is global and we don't think globally as people. We tend to be quite

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<v Speaker 2>regional. So I work in different countries and

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<v Speaker 2>particularly in the UK, I work in the UK, I work in the UK, I work in the UK, I work in the UK,

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<v Speaker 2>think about the problems around AI quite differently in different countries.

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm on the steering committee in Finland for designing their artificial intelligence

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<v Speaker 2>program for the future. And the discussions are quite different in a country like that

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<v Speaker 2>than I also work in the US and then where AI will go in the US. So one of the things that's

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<v Speaker 2>different is scope and size, reach and speed. Another difference is humans are electrochemical

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<v Speaker 2>bags. That's what we are. It's a very romantic way of us thinking about ourselves, but that's what we

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<v Speaker 2>are.

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<v Speaker 2>And AI, once you become part of something that's quite immersive with AI, you know, gaming, VR,

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<v Speaker 2>even AR, it has a very significant effect, impact on our brain and on our physiology,

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<v Speaker 2>our neurophysiology. So it's much stronger in impact than various other technologies because

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<v Speaker 2>it's, we are, well, all of the issues that you read about all the time, we become addicted much

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<v Speaker 2>more easily. It's quite invasive. We get neural patterns and dopamine requirements and all that

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<v Speaker 2>sort of thing that hooks us in with that. So there's that whole area of AI. So I guess it's

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<v Speaker 2>a few of those things. It's more immersive and more invasive than a lot of other types of

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<v Speaker 2>technology. And the way we use it, because we have, most of us have, you know, a multifunctional

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<v Speaker 2>device in our pockets, which is the worst and the best of AI. It's intimate and keeps us in a good place.

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<v Speaker 2>It keeps us connected and gives us communication and information. It also keeps us isolated and

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<v Speaker 2>gives us terrible information and sequesters data that we need and makes us think really

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<v Speaker 2>superficially. And so, you know, we've got everything in that and we have to get much

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<v Speaker 2>better at actually managing it.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>Great. Thank you. That's my electrochemical bag is my new favourite insult. I'm going to use it when I go

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>home and the girls haven't tidied the house. I think what you said there around size and scope and the

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>strength of the impact.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>Is a really interesting one. And what leads me into talking with you, David, a little bit more about your

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>work to start with. Just, I mean, when we were talking earlier, it was around, you know, the fact that the

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>sort of work that you do often leads the sector and technology does have the ability to be stronger and

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>impact for people who may present a disability as well. Can you talk a little bit about the sort of things

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>that you've been doing?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, absolutely. So I suppose the field of rehabilitation engineering and assistive technology is about

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<v Speaker 3>developing technology to harness the ability to do that. And I think that's a really interesting one.

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<v Speaker 3>Anyone who may support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and

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<v Speaker 3>support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and

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<v Speaker 3>support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and

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<v Speaker 3>support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and

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<v Speaker 3>support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and

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<v Speaker 3>support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and

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<v Speaker 3>support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and support us and

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<v Speaker 3>area where people with speech generating devices would like to type and hence speak a lot faster.

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<v Speaker 3>So that technology has been around for a long, long time. And now we're benefiting it from

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<v Speaker 3>when we send SMSs and emails and even type in words to search engines. Text to speech

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<v Speaker 3>and speech to text, again, from the community where people are non-verbal and so they're

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<v Speaker 3>communicating in different media and then it's being spoken. And we're now seeing that

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<v Speaker 3>come in Adobe. You can have Adobe read the document to you in the general population.

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<v Speaker 3>Doors are open and closed. Star Trek would have started that. In the movies, science

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<v Speaker 3>fiction, science fiction crossing over into the technology that we benefit from every

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<v Speaker 3>day. So there's a great paper actually out there from a guy called Chris Law called The

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<v Speaker 3>Technology in Your Cell Phone Wasn't Invented for You. And that paper actually plants the

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<v Speaker 3>seed for what's called universal design. Universal design is about considering the end user and

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<v Speaker 3>all of their capabilities on the whole spectrum and how you should be designing so everyone

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<v Speaker 3>can access, use and actually get the best out of it.

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<v Speaker 3>The best from that particular item, be it a space, so a public space or a device or technology.

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<v Speaker 3>And he outlined some fantastic examples of where that technology has come from with some

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<v Speaker 3>of the examples I've given you to say, well, look, we're all benefiting from this because

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<v Speaker 3>it was designed correctly. The intended user or the spectrum of users was considered appropriately

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<v Speaker 3>so we can all benefit from it in a general sense.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>That's really interesting. So in my job, I am director of MOD, which is just across the

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>road and it's a space where we're trying to inspire young adults about the role that

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>science and technology play in the world.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>Science and tech can play in their lives. And so we've been very conscious about trying

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>to design a space that is inclusive. But I'm also reminded when you've been talking about

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>text-to-speech is we have an animatronic head at MOD called Josh. And Josh is modelled on

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>a 17-year-old boy and he's kind of in a dreamlike state. And we were going, oh, if only we could

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>do this with him. If only we could do this. And when you're talking, it's, yes, he doesn't

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>have the ability to speak on his own. But if we've got text-to-speech, we can make him

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>speak. We've got, you know, we're using all of those technologies to animate, to

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>talk to him.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>To animate this robot in very interesting ways that rely on technologies that have come

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>through that sector.

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<v Speaker 3>So technology is, I think, brilliant and fantastic in that aspect. And just to give you some

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<v Speaker 3>examples of where you might get some of this mismatch. So some of the first speech generating

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<v Speaker 3>devices that came out, and you hopefully are all familiar with, say, Stephen Hawking, who

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<v Speaker 3>used one of these devices to talk for him, was when they first came out, you have to

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<v Speaker 3>realise these devices came from the US. And so if you used a speech generating device,

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<v Speaker 3>it would have an American male adult voice.

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<v Speaker 3>Now, just think about that one system being plugged into any speech generating device

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<v Speaker 3>user, young children, young females, older females. And so you get this mismatch between

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<v Speaker 3>what's being said and the personality of the person, which is what you're coming across

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<v Speaker 3>here.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>Oh, and I think one of the things that we found with Josh is some people are really

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>creeped out by him because he looks really human, even though he's a robot. And some

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>people are creeped out by him because he speaks with an Australian accent.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>Yeah.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>And they've never heard Tex speak with an Australian accent.

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<v Speaker 3>That's right, because it's not Siri.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>And so there's a big push, actually, in Australia now to have an Australian, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>Australian language, but not just an Australian language, actually a young female, a young

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<v Speaker 3>male, a teenage female, a teenage male, to get that closer connection between you and

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<v Speaker 3>your device. Because for the disability sector and for assistive technologies in general,

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<v Speaker 3>it has to be this connection because, you know, people talk about their wheelchairs

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<v Speaker 3>as an extension of themselves. It gives me the mobility. So you want all your devices

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<v Speaker 3>to be like that. And I think the voice is an important one because the voice is the

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<v Speaker 3>connection to who you are and how you say things. So that's important.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>So I've heard a little bit around, I guess, out of Australia, you know, the voice is

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>the social intelligence and your interests, Fiona, and a little bit around tech leading

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>in the disability sector. But how do we put them together? Which is my big question when

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>I first spoke to Fiona and David. What does AI mean when you put these things together

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>in terms of design and technology and how it's shaping us? So how do we put those things

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>together?

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<v Speaker 3>I think that's a good question. I'll let Fiona answer it in just a moment. What I am finding

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<v Speaker 3>interesting, and we talked about this before, is the disability sector has been hamstrung

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<v Speaker 3>in many areas.

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<v Speaker 3>because of size.

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<v Speaker 3>And so your economies of scale are typically not there

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<v Speaker 3>like their general population,

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<v Speaker 3>which means the cost of devices and items

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<v Speaker 3>is sometimes exorbitant and unattainable.

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<v Speaker 3>And so what I'm seeing now,

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<v Speaker 3>and what is the big influence in the last couple of years,

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<v Speaker 3>is where AI and big data and other things

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<v Speaker 3>are having an influence, such as Google Home,

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<v Speaker 3>for example, or Google Mini.

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<v Speaker 3>So now that's taking all of those years

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<v Speaker 3>of speech recognition, machine learning,

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<v Speaker 3>and your ability to take your voice to command.

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<v Speaker 3>And 15 years ago, when I was working at Novita,

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<v Speaker 3>that's called environmental control units,

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<v Speaker 3>and they are very, very expensive.

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<v Speaker 3>But now it's a lot more achievable.

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<v Speaker 3>And autonomous vehicles,

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<v Speaker 3>so the ability to hop into a vehicle if you cannot drive

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<v Speaker 3>and then have that vehicle take you to where you want to go.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, we're just entering that phase now

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<v Speaker 3>with trials around Adelaide and things like that and overseas.

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<v Speaker 3>But we're seeing what would I consider to be

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<v Speaker 3>assistive devices or assistive features

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<v Speaker 3>now coming into mainstream,

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<v Speaker 3>but the cost is coming right down, which is fantastic.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll probably take a bit of a bigger picture then.

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<v Speaker 2>So one of the main things that I spend time talking about

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<v Speaker 2>and advising on is how you make sure

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<v Speaker 2>that when you want to use any of the new technologies,

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<v Speaker 2>that the drivers for it align with what we actually want it to do.

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<v Speaker 2>So one of the main ways that you put them together

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<v Speaker 2>is to try and think about what is the question.

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<v Speaker 2>So your example, like what you're doing,

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<v Speaker 2>the work you're doing,

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<v Speaker 2>is asking a good human-centric positive question.

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<v Speaker 2>Because one of the things to keep thinking about is

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<v Speaker 2>AI is a goal-based optimiser.

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<v Speaker 2>It will do everything to achieve the question that we ask it

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<v Speaker 2>and to create the goal path, the optimist...

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<v Speaker 2>Sorry, the optimal goal path.

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<v Speaker 2>So if you ask it a question which is positive and human-centric,

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<v Speaker 2>AI is fantastic.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a good thing at doing that, at helping us get there.

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<v Speaker 2>If we ask it a question which is for the benefit of some

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<v Speaker 2>and often to the detriment of others,

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<v Speaker 2>AI is just as good at doing that.

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<v Speaker 2>And very often, we're just kind of sleepwalking

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<v Speaker 2>in letting the second happen.

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<v Speaker 2>So if it's just profit driving it,

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<v Speaker 2>then it's perfect at making profit for those people who ask the question.

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<v Speaker 2>So one of the things that always is in the back of my mind

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<v Speaker 2>with how we put them together

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<v Speaker 2>is how we put them together.

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<v Speaker 2>How do we make sure that the question we're asking in the first place

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<v Speaker 2>is for the benefit of humans?

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<v Speaker 2>And then the other thing is how do we make sure,

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<v Speaker 2>I guess it's because it's my middle area,

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<v Speaker 2>is how do we understand the neurophysiological impact

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<v Speaker 2>on the human of the technology as well as the other way around?

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<v Speaker 2>And if we're really clear about that,

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<v Speaker 2>then whatever we build,

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<v Speaker 2>we will be able to try and build it to maximise the benefits.

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<v Speaker 2>So for me, a couple of examples,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm directly involved in...

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<v Speaker 2>In the US, for example, are the design of a family bot.

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<v Speaker 2>Family bots, you'll see in a few years,

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<v Speaker 2>they're something which are supposed to be in families to assist.

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<v Speaker 2>They run around, they'll tear drop with a kind of a screen on the top

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<v Speaker 2>with the big eyes.

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<v Speaker 2>And they're there to seemingly assist parents

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<v Speaker 2>to communicate with their children

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<v Speaker 2>and to help them to teach their children, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>moral and ethical behaviour.

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<v Speaker 2>If you actually know what the brain needs around that,

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<v Speaker 2>it is a lot of very direct interaction

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<v Speaker 2>between the child and the parent.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of retinal eye lock, a lot of touch,

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of amygdala and hippocampal stimulation

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<v Speaker 2>through looking and gazing into people,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the child's eyes and the parent's eyes.

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<v Speaker 2>So that really direct eye and gaze connectivity

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<v Speaker 2>stimulates the parts of the brain

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<v Speaker 2>that increase the capability for communication skills

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<v Speaker 2>and understanding good behaviours.

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<v Speaker 2>Whereas what the bot tends to do is decrease that

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<v Speaker 2>because it either...

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<v Speaker 2>It keeps you away from the child

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<v Speaker 2>or it keeps everybody looking at a screen.

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<v Speaker 2>So my way of trying to deal with that

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<v Speaker 2>is not to say to the people that design it,

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<v Speaker 2>well, you're going to create a bunch of psychopaths

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<v Speaker 2>who never look at each other.

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<v Speaker 2>It's to say, let's have a look at what the brain actually needs

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<v Speaker 2>in order to do that.

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<v Speaker 2>And so how do you make your device increase direct eye gaze,

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<v Speaker 2>touch and connection between the parent and the child

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<v Speaker 2>instead of decreasing it, which it's doing at the moment?

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<v Speaker 2>And so often...

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<v Speaker 2>It's just that they haven't thought...

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<v Speaker 2>Technologists are very technologically optimistic,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, in general, and I'm a technologist,

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<v Speaker 2>but many, many think that you can just technologise everything.

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<v Speaker 2>There are some things you can't technologise

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<v Speaker 2>or when you technologise them, you have to take into account

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<v Speaker 2>the interaction between the human in that technologisation.

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<v Speaker 2>So once they get that extra piece of information,

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<v Speaker 2>then they're usually very happy to go away

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<v Speaker 2>and it's a terrific new puzzle.

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<v Speaker 2>So one of the ways is to...

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<v Speaker 2>is to have maximum information in trying to do those things

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<v Speaker 2>so that you do get really good outcomes

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<v Speaker 2>because you're coming off a base that understands

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<v Speaker 2>what the technology does, understands how the human works

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<v Speaker 2>and then understands how to put them together

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<v Speaker 2>in a really positive, functional way.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>It reminds me of the discussion often around artificial intelligence

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>and jobs of the future and work, where we sort of hear these numbers

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>that 40% of the jobs that we currently have won't exist

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>and...

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>and that what makes us human then starts to become really important,

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>but when you interrogate that, that's the sort of things

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>that we don't currently value, like care work or teaching work or...

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>And so it's that question about sort of saying,

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>well, what can AI do that helps solve a lot of the problems

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>of what humans really could be better off spending their time

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>doing something else?

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>But then we also need to answer that question, I think,

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>if you said, well, where should they be spending their time?

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>Because the example that you've just given me is that parents,

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>probably gazing into children, should be where they're spending

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>their time as opposed to doing the washing up or fiddling around,

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>you know, mowing the lawn or whatever else.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>You can probably get a bot to do more easily.

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<v Speaker 2>That also gets us to another question, which is around, again,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a choice.

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<v Speaker 2>Do we want quality partnerships with AI or do we want quantity

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<v Speaker 2>partnerships with AI?

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<v Speaker 2>And again, I see different trends in different countries.

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<v Speaker 2>So the quality partnership is using AI to...

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<v Speaker 2>It's something like the surgeon who's got AI clipped on their glasses.

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<v Speaker 2>It's...

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<v Speaker 2>The person's operating, the person's operating,

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<v Speaker 2>sees something untoward, can ask AI to give them the really good data.

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<v Speaker 2>AI's fabulous at aggregating data really quickly

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<v Speaker 2>and giving them information.

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<v Speaker 2>But the surgeon still decides because the surgeon's got years

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<v Speaker 2>and years of knowledge chunked up.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's a beautiful partnership between the knowledge

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<v Speaker 2>and wisdom of a human and the capacity of AI to give it

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<v Speaker 2>really relevant information on the spot.

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<v Speaker 2>Perfect.

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<v Speaker 2>Quantity is your, you know, your mechanical turk.

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<v Speaker 2>You say...

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<v Speaker 2>We can take this job and we can make 90% of it automated,

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<v Speaker 2>10% is left that we have to do for humans.

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<v Speaker 2>So we'll put that on and let you bid.

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<v Speaker 2>And so you come in really cheaply to do that.

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<v Speaker 2>You have to do it hundreds of times.

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<v Speaker 2>Hundreds of people are doing that hundreds of times.

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<v Speaker 2>So we've got this kind of battery hen situation.

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<v Speaker 2>And if you complain and feel like you haven't got a social system anymore

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<v Speaker 2>and not sort of seeing tough, just get up and, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we'll have the next person in place.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's the drive for profit and it's the quantity...

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<v Speaker 2>Sorry.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the quantity relationship.

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<v Speaker 2>So those discussions are going on right now in different countries

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<v Speaker 2>and depending on how proactive we are,

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<v Speaker 2>we can really change that discussion.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, we can really get involved in driving quality relationships with AI.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>And what does quality or quantity look like in your sector perhaps, David,

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>when you're thinking about the, you know,

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>the sorts of questions you want to be designing?

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<v Speaker 3>So the first example you gave actually reminds me a lot

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<v Speaker 3>of how I treat Google Maps.

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<v Speaker 3>Like I might ask Google Maps,

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<v Speaker 3>I might ask Google Maps to give me an indication of time

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<v Speaker 3>and where I want to go, but then it's my input on top of that.

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<v Speaker 3>Actually, I want to take this route because I know that's a better route,

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<v Speaker 3>even though the time might be different.

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<v Speaker 3>Because the optimising engines within Google Maps are probably doing it for time

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<v Speaker 3>and less congestion and things like that.

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<v Speaker 3>So what that highlights to me is the heterogeneity

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<v Speaker 3>of the population that I work with.

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<v Speaker 3>So even though there might be the umbrella of disability

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<v Speaker 3>and the different populations within that,

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<v Speaker 3>the key thing is the person is always so intimate to that process.

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<v Speaker 3>And so that could be the allied health professional

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<v Speaker 3>or whoever's working with the individual.

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<v Speaker 3>Or the groups of individuals.

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<v Speaker 3>And so you always need that discerning clinical-based input.

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<v Speaker 3>Because you can use the information you have.

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<v Speaker 3>And in fact, you will fall back on that information many, many times.

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<v Speaker 3>But it's going to be the association you have with that person.

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<v Speaker 3>You've been working with them for 15 or 20 years.

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<v Speaker 3>You know their lifestyle.

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<v Speaker 3>You know their families.

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<v Speaker 3>You know how they interact.

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<v Speaker 3>You know their work environments.

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<v Speaker 3>Or you know that this person might be more susceptible

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<v Speaker 3>to say a pressure injury.

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<v Speaker 3>And so you're going to nominate this pathway compared

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<v Speaker 3>to that pathway.

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<v Speaker 3>So I can't see those.

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<v Speaker 3>I can't see those.

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<v Speaker 3>I can't see those finite or those minutiae details being taken away

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<v Speaker 3>by AI because I think it's that personal connectivity

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<v Speaker 3>that you have to have with clinical insight and knowledge.

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<v Speaker 3>But it's the information around it that just shape hopefully a narrow tunnel

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<v Speaker 3>that you can go down.

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<v Speaker 3>So you don't use this much information.

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<v Speaker 3>You maybe use this much.

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<v Speaker 3>But still use that personal insight and judgement.

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<v Speaker 3>That's where I see it being most effective.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>And Fiona, you sort of said countries are doing this differently.

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>Have you got some examples from where you've been advising

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>or where you've been looking at?

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<v Dr Kristin Alford>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So in Finland, in fact the first question that I was asked

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<v Speaker 2>when I briefed the steering committee was just starting

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<v Speaker 2>when I was over there speaking on partnering

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<v Speaker 2>with artificial intelligence for human centric future.

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<v Speaker 2>And the very first question wasn't around any form

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<v Speaker 2>of technology.

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<v Speaker 2>I think they were interested in talking to me

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<v Speaker 2>because I was originally an anthropologist.

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<v Speaker 2>And so the very first question was, oh great,

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<v Speaker 2>so how do we align eastern, western and middle eastern values

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<v Speaker 2>in order to be able to do that?

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<v Speaker 2>And I thought, oh, yes, I want to be here and do this.

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<v Speaker 2>Because that was the very first thing.

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<v Speaker 2>So the questions were very often there are around how do we ensure that,

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<v Speaker 2>so what are the drivers?

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<v Speaker 2>What are the political drivers?

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<v Speaker 2>What are the economic drivers?

406
00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:32.800
<v Speaker 2>Because we are going to lose 40, 50% of jobs, what does that mean?

407
00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:37.620
<v Speaker 2>But in that country, because they've already got a very strong,

408
00:21:38.080 --> 00:21:44.280
<v Speaker 2>very strong understanding that the social capital is what creates the,

409
00:21:44.380 --> 00:21:47.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, very much the health of that society.

410
00:21:47.600 --> 00:21:49.880
<v Speaker 2>They're already amortising money across there.

411
00:21:49.940 --> 00:21:51.280
<v Speaker 2>They have very good social systems.

412
00:21:51.360 --> 00:21:53.220
<v Speaker 2>They pay teachers and nurses really highly.

413
00:21:53.320 --> 00:21:56.480
<v Speaker 2>So they actually understand the whole thing you were making the point about earlier.

414
00:21:56.880 --> 00:21:59.720
<v Speaker 2>So the conversations there, they've already got a global wage.

415
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.660
<v Speaker 2>And so what we were talking about was kind of you're a few steps ahead

416
00:22:03.660 --> 00:22:08.000
<v Speaker 2>because you're having discussions around how do you ensure that people get

417
00:22:08.080 --> 00:22:12.400
<v Speaker 2>a basic wage but they still feel like positive humans.

418
00:22:12.540 --> 00:22:14.000
<v Speaker 2>So humans need to feel worthwhile.

419
00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:15.180
<v Speaker 2>They need to feel useful.

420
00:22:15.420 --> 00:22:16.540
<v Speaker 2>They need to feel connected.

421
00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:20.700
<v Speaker 2>So you can't just give a global wage and let someone sit on a couch.

422
00:22:21.500 --> 00:22:27.380
<v Speaker 2>Whereas in another country that I'm dealing with, I can already see some of the rules

423
00:22:27.380 --> 00:22:32.160
<v Speaker 2>and some of the designs and the discussions are around how do you,

424
00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:34.760
<v Speaker 2>basically how do you use AI as a soporific

425
00:22:34.760 --> 00:22:37.520
<v Speaker 2>so that people will just not get bored when they're sitting on the couch.

426
00:22:37.540 --> 00:22:37.760
<v Speaker 2>Sure.

427
00:22:37.760 --> 00:22:40.100
<v Speaker 2>It's a totally different kind of discussion.

428
00:22:40.520 --> 00:22:43.000
<v Speaker 2>And depending on what's being designed.

429
00:22:43.420 --> 00:22:45.300
<v Speaker 2>So there's a lovely example, two examples.

430
00:22:45.420 --> 00:22:47.500
<v Speaker 2>I just came, because I just came back yesterday.

431
00:22:48.060 --> 00:22:49.500
<v Speaker 2>Something that you were talking about, David.

432
00:22:49.580 --> 00:22:54.520
<v Speaker 2>Mount Sinai has got a beautiful example of people in the local area

433
00:22:54.520 --> 00:22:56.680
<v Speaker 2>that are suffering levels of dementia.

434
00:22:57.180 --> 00:23:01.960
<v Speaker 2>And they want to use various types of apps to be able to deal with that.

435
00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:06.700
<v Speaker 2>But what they understand really well is that it's the direct human interaction

436
00:23:06.700 --> 00:23:07.740
<v Speaker 2>that you have to deal with.

437
00:23:07.740 --> 00:23:09.600
<v Speaker 2>And they have to loop into that all the time.

438
00:23:09.820 --> 00:23:12.840
<v Speaker 2>So there's a beautiful example of people come from their local area

439
00:23:12.840 --> 00:23:17.500
<v Speaker 2>and every week they check in and they get their vital signs taken by one

440
00:23:17.500 --> 00:23:23.500
<v Speaker 2>of four young local people that are taking the data to make a long lens,

441
00:23:23.760 --> 00:23:24.640
<v Speaker 2>a long-term database.

442
00:23:25.140 --> 00:23:28.340
<v Speaker 2>The fact that those people are coming and actually seeing a human being

443
00:23:28.340 --> 00:23:30.660
<v Speaker 2>and interacting with them and getting to know those four.

444
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:32.520
<v Speaker 2>And they're being looked at.

445
00:23:32.600 --> 00:23:33.220
<v Speaker 2>They're being touched.

446
00:23:33.360 --> 00:23:37.480
<v Speaker 2>Their C-fibres are being stimulated in their skin when the vital signs are being taken.

447
00:23:38.680 --> 00:23:41.720
<v Speaker 2>They have all sorts of really positive outcomes.

448
00:23:42.220 --> 00:23:47.060
<v Speaker 2>Whereas when they just use the app you don't get that nearly as much.

449
00:23:47.780 --> 00:23:51.900
<v Speaker 2>So it's those sorts of things of being awake to those things

450
00:23:52.460 --> 00:23:53.520
<v Speaker 2>that are really important.

451
00:23:53.800 --> 00:23:55.340
<v Speaker 2>When do you put the human in the loop?

452
00:23:55.460 --> 00:23:58.580
<v Speaker 2>When do you need to reinforce what's going on technologically?

453
00:23:59.080 --> 00:24:04.460
<v Speaker 2>And when do you have experts as well that know exactly how to use the technology

454
00:24:04.460 --> 00:24:06.500
<v Speaker 2>and when and when not to use it?

455
00:24:06.540 --> 00:24:06.840
<v Speaker 2>David?

456
00:24:06.840 --> 00:24:07.720
<v Speaker 2>And it makes a giant difference.

457
00:24:07.740 --> 00:24:14.120
<v Dr Kristin Alford>gigantic difference. I guess my area is mostly around future works. I'm also reminded, I was

458
00:24:14.120 --> 00:24:17.940
<v Dr Kristin Alford>listening to Marita Cheng speak at something last year where she was talking about an example

459
00:24:18.420 --> 00:24:23.340
<v Dr Kristin Alford>of an AI that had been developed to work out the difference between hot dogs and legs. I don't know

460
00:24:23.340 --> 00:24:27.980
<v Dr Kristin Alford>if you remember that meme from a couple of years ago, but somebody has had to fed the AI with

461
00:24:27.980 --> 00:24:32.580
<v Dr Kristin Alford>pictures of hot dogs and legs, which means there's a human at the end of that feeding the data in.

462
00:24:32.580 --> 00:24:38.280
<v Dr Kristin Alford>And it's like, well, is that really what we want humans to be doing in this equation? Is there a

463
00:24:38.280 --> 00:24:42.660
<v Dr Kristin Alford>better role? And I think what you've just explained is that there are better roles. And so if we're

464
00:24:42.660 --> 00:24:47.640
<v Dr Kristin Alford>looking at the quantity, we can have jobs for people where you're feeding AI pictures of hot

465
00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:52.520
<v Dr Kristin Alford>dogs and legs, or you can have jobs for people where they're actually providing a benefit for

466
00:24:52.520 --> 00:24:57.080
<v Dr Kristin Alford>health or a benefit that moves beyond just the training of the AI or the data.

467
00:24:57.320 --> 00:25:01.360
<v Speaker 3>I think that's important to recognise where the expertise lay. A couple of years ago,

468
00:25:01.380 --> 00:25:02.560
<v Speaker 3>I heard Rodney Brooks give a presentation.

469
00:25:02.580 --> 00:25:07.800
<v Speaker 3>Obviously, a very famous person for robotics, the vacuum cleaners, etc. And he would say that

470
00:25:07.800 --> 00:25:12.360
<v Speaker 3>their robotic devices can do many, many things. They're on production lines. But there's a group

471
00:25:12.360 --> 00:25:16.320
<v Speaker 3>from the US who got some research funding, and they trained a robot, I think it was either to

472
00:25:16.320 --> 00:25:22.960
<v Speaker 3>fold a tablecloth or to fold a shirt. And it took something like five years to teach the robot to do

473
00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:27.860
<v Speaker 3>a task, which we can do in seconds, yet it can assemble a BMW in fractions of a second with high

474
00:25:27.860 --> 00:25:32.060
<v Speaker 3>precision. And his was all about, well, where is the best application? Let's think about it. It's

475
00:25:32.060 --> 00:25:32.560
<v Speaker 3>not a global problem. It's not a global problem. It's a global problem. It's a global problem.

476
00:25:32.560 --> 00:25:36.140
<v Speaker 3>It's a global pain tool. Here's where you do it. There's roles, and there's roles that would be

477
00:25:36.140 --> 00:25:36.940
<v Speaker 3>considered for other things.

478
00:25:37.060 --> 00:25:39.180
<v Dr Kristin Alford>I don't know. Folding a fitted sheet would be great, though.

479
00:25:39.260 --> 00:25:41.080
<v Dr Kristin Alford>Yeah, exactly right. I agree. Even making a bed.

480
00:25:41.300 --> 00:25:42.500
<v Dr Kristin Alford>There's a lot of videos on that.

481
00:25:42.920 --> 00:25:48.960
<v Speaker 2>But that's a really critical thing, is when is the human better? When is the technology better?

482
00:25:49.180 --> 00:25:53.600
<v Speaker 2>And when is the combination better? Or when does it not matter? And there are things that

483
00:25:53.600 --> 00:25:58.880
<v Speaker 2>we just don't look at enough. I guess a lot of my work is around when is the human more

484
00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:02.060
<v Speaker 2>effective and efficient? And we talk about examples of,

485
00:26:02.560 --> 00:26:08.600
<v Speaker 2>of nursing, of care, where especially if a child or a patient is either in pain or upset,

486
00:26:09.360 --> 00:26:15.300
<v Speaker 2>because of the way that your body changes in that situation, chemically, five minutes looking at a

487
00:26:15.300 --> 00:26:21.460
<v Speaker 2>human, especially one you know and trust, changes your physiology within that five minutes really

488
00:26:21.460 --> 00:26:26.860
<v Speaker 2>quickly. For the patient, your immune system changes. It downplays all sorts of cognitive

489
00:26:26.860 --> 00:26:32.020
<v Speaker 2>stress markers. It increases your serotonin uptake. It decreases cortisol.

490
00:26:32.560 --> 00:26:39.660
<v Speaker 2>And yet what we do is either they just get tablets instead of five minutes with a nurse

491
00:26:39.660 --> 00:26:45.100
<v Speaker 2>who can just calm them down. Or we're starting to bring in technologies to kind of nicely

492
00:26:45.100 --> 00:26:51.060
<v Speaker 2>restrain them. So those are the sorts of things where if we understand that, in fact humans

493
00:26:51.060 --> 00:26:56.200
<v Speaker 2>know, we know that a cuddle and just looking at someone, a cuddle with your child, or just

494
00:26:56.200 --> 00:27:00.520
<v Speaker 2>looking at someone and spending the time with your hand on their arm quietly reassuring them,

495
00:27:00.600 --> 00:27:02.020
<v Speaker 2>makes a big difference.

496
00:27:02.020 --> 00:27:07.040
<v Speaker 2>Humans know that because that's how we work. So getting the science to explain that that's

497
00:27:07.040 --> 00:27:11.660
<v Speaker 2>really critical is an important part of then saying, so what is the role here of technology?

498
00:27:11.980 --> 00:27:16.600
<v Speaker 2>And that's all we really should be doing is saying, what's the role of each in any given

499
00:27:16.600 --> 00:27:19.500
<v Speaker 2>circumstance so that we're really smart about using both?

500
00:27:20.340 --> 00:27:25.540
<v Speaker 3>If I could just add, I met about 15, 20 years ago, I was part of a group that put an application

501
00:27:25.540 --> 00:27:29.860
<v Speaker 3>in to try and really improve some access to funding for what we would have called environmental

502
00:27:29.860 --> 00:27:32.000
<v Speaker 3>control units to control the environment.

503
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:32.200
<v Speaker 3>And I was part of a group that was really interested in the role of environmental control

504
00:27:32.200 --> 00:27:35.440
<v Speaker 3>units to control devices around the home so you can be much more independent, you can

505
00:27:35.440 --> 00:27:39.660
<v Speaker 3>do doors, curtains, et cetera, et cetera. And one of my occupational therapist colleagues

506
00:27:39.660 --> 00:27:43.900
<v Speaker 3>just reminded me, and didn't really, it wasn't a strong caution, but just reminded me, look,

507
00:27:43.980 --> 00:27:48.800
<v Speaker 3>it's not carer replacement, okay? It's actually just providing that level of independence

508
00:27:48.800 --> 00:27:53.600
<v Speaker 3>that the person can maybe have a greater self-esteem, et cetera, et cetera, greater quality of life,

509
00:27:53.740 --> 00:27:57.820
<v Speaker 3>and that means the carer can be doing other things. And so it's not changing the channel

510
00:27:57.820 --> 00:27:58.940
<v Speaker 3>on TV or doing this.

511
00:27:58.940 --> 00:28:03.540
<v Speaker 3>It's the conversation, making a cup of tea, doing the other things. And so we should be

512
00:28:03.540 --> 00:28:08.700
<v Speaker 3>reminding funding bodies particularly that they're not carer replacements. They're augmenting

513
00:28:08.700 --> 00:28:12.340
<v Speaker 3>aspects to that sort of thing. So it's not going down your balance sheet and going, oh,

514
00:28:12.360 --> 00:28:15.060
<v Speaker 3>right, I can put that person somewhere else. It's actually just saying, well, that person

515
00:28:15.060 --> 00:28:18.580
<v Speaker 3>might be spending more quality time, but it's not a replacement device.

516
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:20.540
<v Dr Kristin Alford>Yeah, the question about quality is a good one, I think.

517
00:28:20.540 --> 00:28:25.140
<v Speaker 2>And that's the difference in discussions in different countries. Some don't even go to

518
00:28:25.140 --> 00:28:28.800
<v Speaker 2>the, so how do we get the human out of the equation? They are having a look at the

519
00:28:28.940 --> 00:28:32.480
<v Speaker 2>technology. How do we give them time to do the stuff that humans are really good at?

520
00:28:33.540 --> 00:28:39.800
<v Speaker 2>And we, yeah, I love technology. I mean, I've been a really, I've been lucky to also be

521
00:28:39.800 --> 00:28:44.500
<v Speaker 2>part of using it to make things that let people do things they're never able to do. And David's

522
00:28:44.500 --> 00:28:51.180
<v Speaker 2>my kind of like pinup boy of how to do this. But as long as we just make sure that we utilise

523
00:28:51.180 --> 00:28:54.440
<v Speaker 2>both, then they're just, they're both quite miraculous.

524
00:28:55.000 --> 00:28:58.920
<v Dr Kristin Alford>And I guess the feedback loop. So when you're talking about developing, you know, the technology,

525
00:28:58.940 --> 00:29:04.800
<v Dr Kristin Alford>the gaming to help children with cerebral palsy, it's the, does the game make an improvement

526
00:29:04.800 --> 00:29:11.000
<v Dr Kristin Alford>on various factors, not just one? Or, you know, there is a reinforcing effect from doing

527
00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:11.320
<v Dr Kristin Alford>that.

528
00:29:11.500 --> 00:29:16.700
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely. So as we're having a conversation before, so my PhD work was about developing

529
00:29:16.700 --> 00:29:21.100
<v Speaker 3>an accessible gaming system to enable a child with a hand impairment due to cerebral palsy

530
00:29:21.100 --> 00:29:26.180
<v Speaker 3>to play computer games. But that wasn't the question. The question was how can we engage

531
00:29:26.180 --> 00:29:28.920
<v Speaker 3>children to use both their hands? Because a child with a hand impairment is not going

532
00:29:28.920 --> 00:29:30.860
<v Speaker 3>to play computer games. So the child with an impairment would typically use their dominant

533
00:29:30.860 --> 00:29:35.140
<v Speaker 3>or strong hand and they'll ignore their hand, which doesn't work as well. And through lots

534
00:29:35.140 --> 00:29:39.240
<v Speaker 3>of conversations and conceptualisation, it ended up being a gaming system that we developed.

535
00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:43.180
<v Speaker 3>And the gaming system showed that it actually could improve hand function. So the hand,

536
00:29:43.220 --> 00:29:47.560
<v Speaker 3>which didn't perform as well, actually improved it. So it gave it better function. But as

537
00:29:47.560 --> 00:29:52.460
<v Speaker 3>we've talked about, we actually had other situations where that gaming system, because

538
00:29:52.460 --> 00:29:57.300
<v Speaker 3>it was accessible once it went into the family's homes, actually improved sibling interaction

539
00:29:57.300 --> 00:29:58.260
<v Speaker 3>and participation.

540
00:29:58.920 --> 00:30:01.000
<v Speaker 3>So parents were commenting on sibling rivalry

541
00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:03.960
<v Speaker 3>because they had a common platform they could play on now

542
00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:06.340
<v Speaker 3>which wasn't disadvantaging the child with an impairment.

543
00:30:06.580 --> 00:30:09.040
<v Speaker 3>So, you know, everyone loves to beat their brother or sister.

544
00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:11.500
<v Speaker 3>I know I did, so why not give everyone that opportunity?

545
00:30:12.140 --> 00:30:14.180
<v Speaker 3>Parents were scared to hop on the system

546
00:30:14.180 --> 00:30:15.720
<v Speaker 3>because their child was so good at it,

547
00:30:15.760 --> 00:30:18.160
<v Speaker 3>so they didn't want to be shown up that they couldn't beat their own child.

548
00:30:18.780 --> 00:30:22.060
<v Speaker 3>But one of the most profound experiences that came out of that

549
00:30:22.060 --> 00:30:25.960
<v Speaker 3>was it created such an interactive environment

550
00:30:25.960 --> 00:30:29.120
<v Speaker 3>that we had one boy actually talk more during the trial.

551
00:30:29.260 --> 00:30:32.100
<v Speaker 3>So he was non-verbal before the trial, or he was non-verbal.

552
00:30:32.260 --> 00:30:34.940
<v Speaker 3>And he was achieving so well in the gaming system

553
00:30:34.940 --> 00:30:37.480
<v Speaker 3>and getting through many of our games and many of the levels

554
00:30:37.480 --> 00:30:41.200
<v Speaker 3>that when his sister, who was able-bodied, was playing the gaming system,

555
00:30:41.300 --> 00:30:42.520
<v Speaker 3>she couldn't get to the same level.

556
00:30:42.660 --> 00:30:44.720
<v Speaker 3>So he was coaching her and telling her what to do.

557
00:30:44.760 --> 00:30:47.860
<v Speaker 3>Do this, go here, this is how you solve that particular puzzle.

558
00:30:48.060 --> 00:30:49.580
<v Speaker 3>So he became more verbal.

559
00:30:49.820 --> 00:30:52.900
<v Speaker 3>Now, if we all sat down nine years ago when we started the system

560
00:30:52.900 --> 00:30:55.500
<v Speaker 3>and said, how can we make a child with a disability talk more,

561
00:30:55.500 --> 00:30:56.960
<v Speaker 3>we would not have arrived at a gaming system.

562
00:30:57.200 --> 00:30:59.660
<v Speaker 3>So it's these ripple effects that came out of it.

563
00:30:59.760 --> 00:31:02.140
<v Speaker 3>And it's about designing things right from the beginning,

564
00:31:02.200 --> 00:31:02.940
<v Speaker 3>so universal design.

565
00:31:03.040 --> 00:31:04.340
<v Speaker 3>It's about asking the right questions.

566
00:31:04.340 --> 00:31:07.140
<v Speaker 3>And it's about looking on the peripheral for these other effects,

567
00:31:07.260 --> 00:31:08.840
<v Speaker 3>these edge effects that you can see as well.

568
00:31:09.040 --> 00:31:10.040
<v Dr Kristin Alford>Yeah, brilliant. Thank you.

569
00:31:10.240 --> 00:31:13.240
<v Dr Kristin Alford>I think the value of this discussion really is around

570
00:31:14.220 --> 00:31:18.060
<v Dr Kristin Alford>how do we shape artificial intelligence and social interaction

571
00:31:18.060 --> 00:31:19.800
<v Dr Kristin Alford>in a way that gives us what we want?

572
00:31:20.220 --> 00:31:22.060
<v Dr Kristin Alford>And I think there's two things that you can do.

573
00:31:22.980 --> 00:31:25.380
<v Dr Kristin Alford>Inspired by the fact that some of the technology

574
00:31:25.380 --> 00:31:27.600
<v Dr Kristin Alford>that we've seen develop means that a lot of these

575
00:31:27.600 --> 00:31:32.520
<v Dr Kristin Alford>are decreasing the price level for people to have interactions.

576
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:34.720
<v Dr Kristin Alford>So I'm thinking about 3D printing,

577
00:31:34.820 --> 00:31:37.280
<v Dr Kristin Alford>and I'm thinking about being able to publish your own work online

578
00:31:37.280 --> 00:31:38.500
<v Dr Kristin Alford>and all of those sorts of things.

579
00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:41.340
<v Dr Kristin Alford>I think there is a lower entry point for us to start to be involved

580
00:31:41.340 --> 00:31:42.940
<v Dr Kristin Alford>in developing AI that we want.

581
00:31:43.100 --> 00:31:47.540
<v Dr Kristin Alford>And so taking power as a citizen to develop that ourselves is one thing.

582
00:31:47.660 --> 00:31:49.920
<v Dr Kristin Alford>And I'm going to pick up on also what you said, Fiona.

583
00:31:50.120 --> 00:31:53.340
<v Dr Kristin Alford>If everybody in levels of politics, economics and lawyers,

584
00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:55.360
<v Dr Kristin Alford>then they rely on us as non-economists.

585
00:31:55.380 --> 00:31:57.940
<v Dr Kristin Alford>Economists and lawyers to give them input

586
00:31:57.940 --> 00:31:59.840
<v Dr Kristin Alford>about some of those other diverse perspectives.

587
00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:02.660
<v Dr Kristin Alford>So I guess there is a call for active citizenry

588
00:32:02.660 --> 00:32:05.520
<v Dr Kristin Alford>so that you are informing the people who represent you

589
00:32:05.520 --> 00:32:06.900
<v Dr Kristin Alford>that there are things that we want

590
00:32:06.900 --> 00:32:09.520
<v Dr Kristin Alford>and that we are things that we are expecting them to deliver

591
00:32:09.520 --> 00:32:11.180
<v Dr Kristin Alford>as we look at how we adopt the technology.

592
00:32:11.560 --> 00:32:13.980
<v Dr Kristin Alford>And those things matter to us because they are the things,

593
00:32:14.040 --> 00:32:17.140
<v Dr Kristin Alford>the conversation, the care, the face-to-face contact

594
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:19.080
<v Dr Kristin Alford>that make us human.

595
00:32:19.500 --> 00:32:22.320
<v Dr Kristin Alford>So with that, please join me in thanking David Hobbs,

596
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:24.040
<v Dr Kristin Alford>Fiona Kerr and the festival organizers.

597
00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:25.900
<v Dr Kristin Alford>Thank you.