WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.880 Welcome to the Adelaide Festival of Ideas and to today's session, When a Stranger Calls. 2 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:10.960 My name is Hossam Abiyad. I am the Chair of the Australia Day Council of South Australia 3 00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:17.300 and I'm also a Chair of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade Council for Australian Arab Relations 4 00:00:17.300 --> 00:00:21.620 and it gives me great pleasure to be here with you today and to facilitate this session. 5 00:00:22.540 --> 00:00:29.280 So, today's session, for those who come across the seas with boundless plains to share, 6 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:34.380 with courage let us all combine to advance Australia Fair. 7 00:00:34.920 --> 00:00:39.920 We may think we have it right in Australia, but we definitely don't have it perfect. 8 00:00:40.520 --> 00:00:47.520 There are plenty among us who still fear the notion of welcoming stranger, an asylum seeker or a refugee. 9 00:00:48.080 --> 00:00:54.580 But after decades of immigration, how do we know who is from here and who is not? 10 00:00:55.020 --> 00:00:58.240 And does simply being born an Australian truly make you one? 11 00:00:58.540 --> 00:00:59.900 Because one thing we know, 12 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:06.500 that despite many of our differences, the one thing we do have in common is that we have all migrated to Australia. 13 00:01:07.160 --> 00:01:09.480 And joining us today, we have Benjamin Law. 14 00:01:09.920 --> 00:01:12.120 Benjamin is an Australian author and journalist. 15 00:01:12.380 --> 00:01:20.880 He's known for his books, The Family Law, Geyser Adventures in the Queer East and Quarterly Essay 67, Moral Panic 101. 16 00:01:21.180 --> 00:01:24.360 The first of these is now an award-winning TV program with SBS. 17 00:01:24.760 --> 00:01:26.500 Dr. Jennifer Caruso. 18 00:01:27.420 --> 00:01:29.460 Jenny is an Eastern Arantah woman, 19 00:01:29.560 --> 00:01:29.980 who led the Australian National Association for the Prevention of the 20 00:01:29.980 --> 00:01:30.140 Aboriginals in the United States. 21 00:01:30.140 --> 00:01:32.060 She has written many lectures on Aboriginal cultures and history. 22 00:01:32.340 --> 00:01:36.800 Her research focuses on the impact of removal on the stolen generations. 23 00:01:37.540 --> 00:01:38.660 And Peter Drew. 24 00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:44.820 Peter is known for his clandestine poster installation campaigns, challenging Australian identity. 25 00:01:45.320 --> 00:01:51.180 Most notably, Real Australians Say Welcome, and for works based on the Aussie folk hero, Mongo Khan. 26 00:01:51.580 --> 00:01:52.840 Welcome to our panelists. 27 00:01:53.700 --> 00:01:59.780 And we'll kick off by asking, why did we stop upholding the values of our national anthem? 28 00:01:59.920 --> 00:01:59.960 Why did we stop upholding the values of our national anthem? 29 00:01:59.960 --> 00:02:03.240 And what defines the real Australians of today? 30 00:02:03.940 --> 00:02:05.140 And I'll open it to you. 31 00:02:05.320 --> 00:02:11.300 I think it's almost the perfect metaphor that very few of us know the second verse of our Australian anthem. 32 00:02:11.560 --> 00:02:15.600 I mean, when you say those words, we probably are familiar with them now. 33 00:02:15.740 --> 00:02:24.500 But if Advanced Australian Fair just kept playing to its second verse, I doubt very many of us would be able to recite what are apparently our national values. 34 00:02:24.780 --> 00:02:29.900 And I think that's kind of a very fitting metaphor for how we've forgotten. 35 00:02:29.900 --> 00:02:35.900 Our shared foundation story, or what we aspired to in the first place. 36 00:02:36.040 --> 00:02:40.780 And it is an aspirational goal, those values that we're supposed to uphold. 37 00:02:41.120 --> 00:02:43.640 But they've really kind of slipped our grasp. 38 00:02:44.020 --> 00:02:50.880 And I think, especially with this country's asylum seeker policy, how it's only gotten more cruel. 39 00:02:51.060 --> 00:02:59.520 It hasn't gotten really less cruel as time has gone on with every successive government, no matter what their political leanings. 40 00:02:59.900 --> 00:03:01.000 It's gotten worse. 41 00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:13.440 And I thought it was kind of an interesting point this week, where it was almost being said in celebratory terms how low our migration had gotten this year. 42 00:03:13.580 --> 00:03:17.220 That it was an anomaly that our migratory levels... 43 00:03:17.220 --> 00:03:24.120 Like, I wasn't really aware in our country yet that we'd reached a point where migration was kind of conflated with asylum seekers. 44 00:03:24.160 --> 00:03:26.720 But the fact that that's now the discussion. 45 00:03:26.920 --> 00:03:28.500 That, you know, over 10... 46 00:03:28.500 --> 00:03:29.820 Less than 10,000 people. 47 00:03:29.900 --> 00:03:33.440 Were accepted into this country as migrants, as opposed to last year. 48 00:03:34.500 --> 00:03:39.140 To hear that discussion being had as a positive thing, I thought, was very telling. 49 00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:41.280 Definitely. 50 00:03:41.540 --> 00:03:44.820 And it's really interesting, because it doesn't mention anything in the verse about visas. 51 00:03:45.160 --> 00:03:47.820 It does mention, you know... 52 00:03:47.820 --> 00:03:48.580 Skill set. 53 00:03:49.180 --> 00:03:50.560 Coming from across the sea. 54 00:03:50.660 --> 00:03:53.260 But I think one of the things that really comes out is courage. 55 00:03:53.680 --> 00:03:56.320 You know, with courage, let us all combine. 56 00:03:56.440 --> 00:03:58.600 So I think it's a real focus there of courage, of unity. 57 00:03:58.720 --> 00:03:59.880 Of how that brings us all together. 58 00:03:59.880 --> 00:04:01.420 What's your thoughts on that? 59 00:04:01.520 --> 00:04:08.240 I remember finding that line when I was getting ready for the first poster project. 60 00:04:08.580 --> 00:04:11.000 And it really struck me, because it's... 61 00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:22.040 The rhetoric is completely different to the rhetoric that you get from, I guess, the left in terms of trying to make progress in that regard. 62 00:04:22.180 --> 00:04:23.000 Because it's... 63 00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:26.820 To appeal to courage, you would more likely appeal to compassion. 64 00:04:26.820 --> 00:04:31.580 But courage actually speaks more to the conservative mindset. 65 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:37.400 Because what it actually suggests is that you need courage in order to welcome people that seem different. 66 00:04:37.620 --> 00:04:40.980 And that's actually quite insightful. 67 00:04:41.140 --> 00:04:45.020 Because it suggests that fear is actually natural and inevitable. 68 00:04:45.520 --> 00:04:51.800 And that's something that I always try to sort of aim my projects towards. 69 00:04:51.880 --> 00:04:55.620 Because if you come to somebody who's afraid and say, have more compassion. 70 00:04:55.620 --> 00:05:00.460 You just mark yourself off as being naive, innocent and weak. 71 00:05:00.900 --> 00:05:06.960 Whereas if you appeal to their better nature of courage, you have some... 72 00:05:06.960 --> 00:05:09.400 Essentially, you can't cure fear with compassion. 73 00:05:09.640 --> 00:05:11.680 You need to inspire people to have more courage. 74 00:05:11.840 --> 00:05:13.960 And so I thought that's actually... 75 00:05:13.960 --> 00:05:22.360 Because people look at our national anthem and all our sort of nationalistic art and say, well, it's simplistic. 76 00:05:22.520 --> 00:05:24.740 But that's actually quite psychologically insightful. 77 00:05:24.740 --> 00:05:26.620 To appeal to people's courage. 78 00:05:26.780 --> 00:05:27.300 Great. 79 00:05:28.220 --> 00:05:28.740 Although... 80 00:05:30.400 --> 00:05:34.680 I think that notion of fear that we have here. 81 00:05:34.820 --> 00:05:35.940 And the idea... 82 00:05:35.940 --> 00:05:42.680 Why do we have to have courage to invite people to this geographical space? 83 00:05:43.140 --> 00:05:44.640 I mean, what is it about... 84 00:05:45.260 --> 00:05:49.360 You've got to gird your loins and bring in these brown-skinned people. 85 00:05:49.580 --> 00:05:52.740 And these people who are coming from all parts of the earth. 86 00:05:52.820 --> 00:05:54.320 And you're going to be a hero. 87 00:05:54.320 --> 00:05:55.480 Because you do that? 88 00:05:55.800 --> 00:05:56.400 Really? 89 00:05:56.820 --> 00:05:59.180 That's a wonderful concept. 90 00:05:59.400 --> 00:06:03.760 And then this notion of, you know, advanced Australia fair. 91 00:06:04.060 --> 00:06:05.080 Fair for who? 92 00:06:05.400 --> 00:06:07.580 And fair of what skin colour? 93 00:06:07.940 --> 00:06:09.740 It's embedded in our history. 94 00:06:09.820 --> 00:06:12.060 It's embedded in the history of this nation. 95 00:06:12.180 --> 00:06:13.380 When you go back to Federation. 96 00:06:13.720 --> 00:06:19.060 And the ideas of what would this nation look like as we went to... 97 00:06:19.060 --> 00:06:22.340 As a combined nation. 98 00:06:22.520 --> 00:06:24.300 And all the discussions were about... 99 00:06:24.300 --> 00:06:28.560 You know, mainly for the Anglo-Saxon race. 100 00:06:28.840 --> 00:06:33.480 So that notion of fear, you know, started well before Federation. 101 00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:39.460 And those conversations started well before Federation. 102 00:06:39.500 --> 00:06:47.980 So I suppose fear is the springboard that has to be broken down. 103 00:06:48.140 --> 00:06:52.800 In relation to when we're looking at the arrival of peoples from... 104 00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:55.820 All parts of the earth. 105 00:06:55.940 --> 00:07:03.680 Let alone from the fact that we are supposed to be a nation that, you know, is... 106 00:07:04.760 --> 00:07:11.020 Looks at the ideologies of enlightenment and inclusion and inclusiveness. 107 00:07:12.080 --> 00:07:12.760 And... 108 00:07:12.760 --> 00:07:18.260 But it's sort of like inclusion and inclusiveness so long as you look like us. 109 00:07:20.280 --> 00:07:21.640 And that's... 110 00:07:21.640 --> 00:07:21.800 That's... 111 00:07:21.980 --> 00:07:23.980 That needs a whole lot of unpacking. 112 00:07:24.740 --> 00:07:29.060 So, you know, therefore the work that you do then says... 113 00:07:29.060 --> 00:07:33.280 You know, I mean, I saw your posters and I looked at the posters and I went... 114 00:07:33.280 --> 00:07:36.920 That's my great-grandfather there because he's Afghan heritage. 115 00:07:37.240 --> 00:07:39.400 So Afghan heritage, Muslim. 116 00:07:40.180 --> 00:07:44.300 The state wouldn't be the state without people like my great-grandfather. 117 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:47.400 And the opening up of the state. 118 00:07:48.100 --> 00:07:50.860 And even back then, you lived... 119 00:07:50.860 --> 00:07:51.360 The... 120 00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:55.840 The Muslims lived on the other side of the railway line because you couldn't associate... 121 00:07:55.840 --> 00:08:01.600 You weren't allowed to associate with white society. 122 00:08:02.060 --> 00:08:07.060 And I was, you know, thinking when you did the Welcome to Country. 123 00:08:07.380 --> 00:08:12.260 And, you know, there's been a lot of noise about Welcome to Country, etc. 124 00:08:13.960 --> 00:08:16.780 You know, and people saying, why do we have to have this? 125 00:08:17.220 --> 00:08:20.860 We have to have this because we need to be reminded constantly... 126 00:08:20.860 --> 00:08:31.520 And regularly that this country was occupied before the arrival of any peoples on any boats from anywhere else. 127 00:08:31.840 --> 00:08:41.820 And so, therefore, the identity and sovereignty of this nation was in existence before any of those arrivals. 128 00:08:41.940 --> 00:08:49.900 And so, therefore, our current day acknowledgement of country is about looking at our identity as a nation... 129 00:08:49.900 --> 00:08:51.260 And an inclusive... 130 00:08:51.900 --> 00:08:53.620 An inclusive identity, I think. 131 00:08:54.420 --> 00:08:56.280 And on the question... 132 00:08:57.680 --> 00:09:01.180 On the question of identity, what does it define... 133 00:09:01.180 --> 00:09:02.520 How are we defined as Australian? 134 00:09:02.600 --> 00:09:03.860 What does it mean to be Australian? 135 00:09:04.100 --> 00:09:06.480 How do you get that tick in the box that says you're an Australian? 136 00:09:06.780 --> 00:09:08.820 I mean, we're constantly sort of debating this. 137 00:09:08.920 --> 00:09:11.300 We're constantly having a discussion around identity. 138 00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:13.860 And I think our identity is quite evolving throughout history. 139 00:09:14.300 --> 00:09:15.980 What does it really mean to be an Australian? 140 00:09:16.140 --> 00:09:18.480 Even if we take it back to pre-settlement. 141 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:19.800 You know, what does that mean? 142 00:09:19.800 --> 00:09:20.440 What does it mean? 143 00:09:20.560 --> 00:09:22.340 What's held in that definition? 144 00:09:22.560 --> 00:09:24.620 It's just all about mateship, Hasan. 145 00:09:26.620 --> 00:09:28.560 I'm going to buy him a beer a bit later. 146 00:09:28.880 --> 00:09:30.340 And I don't drink, but... 147 00:09:30.340 --> 00:09:31.480 That's kind of it. 148 00:09:31.620 --> 00:09:32.560 It's pretty simple. 149 00:09:33.420 --> 00:09:35.680 That's my Queenslander coming out. 150 00:09:36.460 --> 00:09:44.460 I think, like, this whole concept of what is Australian is flimsy because there are a lot of Australias. 151 00:09:45.820 --> 00:09:47.020 That's the first thing. 152 00:09:47.180 --> 00:09:48.280 What are we talking about? 153 00:09:48.340 --> 00:09:49.780 Are we talking about real Australia? 154 00:09:49.780 --> 00:09:53.300 Are we talking about regional, suburban, metropolitan Australia? 155 00:09:53.600 --> 00:10:03.140 Are we talking about, you know, are we talking about the 75,000 years of Indigenous history? 156 00:10:03.320 --> 00:10:05.160 Or are we just talking about white history? 157 00:10:05.300 --> 00:10:11.960 Like, we don't seem to get into the specifics of what we're talking about when we talk about Australia because Australia is a mosaic. 158 00:10:12.360 --> 00:10:14.040 You know, even First Nations are a mosaic. 159 00:10:14.140 --> 00:10:14.520 Absolutely. 160 00:10:15.780 --> 00:10:18.660 And we talk about Australia as a multicultural country. 161 00:10:18.660 --> 00:10:30.460 But one of the conversations I've been having with Indigenous mates lately is how Australia was already a multicultural country before colonisation because of how many First Nations and how many languages there were. 162 00:10:30.700 --> 00:10:36.560 So, you know, it takes these kind of pivots for us to reframe how we even see our country in the first place. 163 00:10:36.620 --> 00:10:39.300 It's why I find Peter's work so valuable. 164 00:10:39.420 --> 00:10:43.880 It's why Jenny's work is so valuable with the research that you do. 165 00:10:45.220 --> 00:10:45.700 We... 166 00:10:45.700 --> 00:10:47.900 You know, in some ways... 167 00:10:48.780 --> 00:10:52.240 John Howard's right in that we need to know our history better. 168 00:10:52.660 --> 00:10:57.020 Where he's wrong is that he has a very particular view of history... 169 00:10:57.020 --> 00:11:00.220 I almost moved my chair over this way when you said that. 170 00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:05.920 It's a very myopic view of history that a lot of people like him want to advocate and feed down. 171 00:11:06.340 --> 00:11:08.540 Australia has so many hidden histories. 172 00:11:08.700 --> 00:11:11.620 We have a hidden Indigenous history that's not taught in schools. 173 00:11:11.820 --> 00:11:14.220 We have a hidden queer history that's not taught about schools. 174 00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:18.400 You know, the Chinese have been here almost as long as white people. 175 00:11:18.400 --> 00:11:18.580 Absolutely. 176 00:11:18.660 --> 00:11:25.140 And apparently some Chinese people even accidentally came to Australia before the first recorded migrants. 177 00:11:25.300 --> 00:11:31.920 I found out the other day from my friend Santilla Chingaipe that there were black people on the first fleet. 178 00:11:32.300 --> 00:11:35.420 Not black people as in Indigenous Australians, obviously, 179 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:42.080 but black people who were brought over by the British because they were either indentured labourers or they were prisoners themselves. 180 00:11:42.280 --> 00:11:43.740 I did not know that. 181 00:11:44.060 --> 00:11:48.460 And the fact that we're still learning about our own country, 182 00:11:48.540 --> 00:11:48.640 and the fact that we're still learning about our own country, 183 00:11:48.640 --> 00:11:54.140 you know, the fact that the stuff that I'm learning about now just feels like the stuff that we should have been learning about at school. 184 00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:56.840 You know, when we talk about Australia and what defines Australia, 185 00:11:57.020 --> 00:12:01.220 like I feel like we even have a long way to go to even discovering our own past. 186 00:12:01.980 --> 00:12:03.100 Peter, when you're saying... 187 00:12:03.100 --> 00:12:07.740 When you're talking about real Australians say welcome, who are you thinking about? 188 00:12:08.640 --> 00:12:11.920 Well, I mean, that phrase is obviously a contradiction. 189 00:12:11.980 --> 00:12:12.760 I mean, it's... 190 00:12:12.760 --> 00:12:17.560 Because if there is such a thing as real Australians and they say welcome, 191 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:25.380 it's a riddle because it's essentially saying that in order to be a real Australian you need to have no boundary. 192 00:12:26.140 --> 00:12:26.620 That's... 193 00:12:26.620 --> 00:12:28.660 It collapses in upon itself. 194 00:12:28.860 --> 00:12:39.040 But I mean, I chose that phrase because it's obviously a twist on sort of the right-wing rhetoric that is in order to be a real Australian you need to... 195 00:12:39.040 --> 00:12:39.240 Yeah. 196 00:12:40.100 --> 00:12:41.060 And so... 197 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:44.260 And it was inspired by that verse in the anthem. 198 00:12:44.780 --> 00:12:47.540 But it came to me as a phrase. 199 00:12:47.540 --> 00:12:49.560 It came to me as a phrase while I was overseas, funnily enough, 200 00:12:49.640 --> 00:12:53.920 because you don't really think of yourself as Australian when you're here because you're surrounded by other Australians. 201 00:12:54.120 --> 00:12:57.600 But I was studying in Scotland and I suddenly became the Australian guy. 202 00:12:57.780 --> 00:13:00.540 And I thought, well, what does that really mean? 203 00:13:00.860 --> 00:13:07.360 And at the time the Australian federal election was on and both major parties were promising to stop the boats. 204 00:13:07.500 --> 00:13:12.480 And that phrase, stop the boats, just really struck me as being particularly absurd. 205 00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:27.900 And so I made a poster in the style of a 19th century poster and it said, Australia says stop the boats to avoid Aboriginal genocide, stop Great Britain's illegal migration to Australia. 206 00:13:28.280 --> 00:13:32.740 And I went down to London and stuck up a bunch of those. 207 00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:35.440 And they were very popular. 208 00:13:35.540 --> 00:13:36.460 But, you know... 209 00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:39.460 I was actually... 210 00:13:39.460 --> 00:13:41.960 And a very interesting experience happened to me while I was sticking them up. 211 00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:42.460 It's in... 212 00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:43.780 The East End. 213 00:13:44.020 --> 00:13:46.020 And I was approached by a man of... 214 00:13:46.020 --> 00:13:47.640 I think he was of West Indian descent. 215 00:13:47.880 --> 00:13:49.640 He was a man of colour. 216 00:13:49.840 --> 00:13:51.440 And he said to me, what's up for these posters? 217 00:13:51.620 --> 00:13:55.980 And I said, I'm making fun of the Australian policy towards asylum seekers. 218 00:13:56.420 --> 00:13:59.160 And he said, oh, they want to stop the boats. 219 00:13:59.220 --> 00:13:59.780 No, that's good. 220 00:13:59.980 --> 00:14:01.120 You should keep the country pure. 221 00:14:01.780 --> 00:14:02.820 And so here... 222 00:14:02.820 --> 00:14:03.580 And I... 223 00:14:03.580 --> 00:14:05.280 It really spun me out. 224 00:14:05.380 --> 00:14:10.320 And I sort of realised these things are not as simple as what I think they are. 225 00:14:11.020 --> 00:14:12.460 Identity is very, very clear. 226 00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:12.740 It's very complicated. 227 00:14:12.740 --> 00:14:13.020 It is. 228 00:14:13.340 --> 00:14:18.140 And Jenny, obviously Aboriginal communities for thousands and thousands and thousands 229 00:14:18.140 --> 00:14:22.400 of years have been welcoming many people, many visitors to Australia, what's known 230 00:14:22.400 --> 00:14:23.060 now as Australia. 231 00:14:23.460 --> 00:14:25.100 What's your take on the welcome? 232 00:14:25.240 --> 00:14:29.060 And what's your take on that invitation that you guys have facilitated? 233 00:14:29.460 --> 00:14:30.740 I think that we... 234 00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:42.080 You know, when we say welcome, there are different meanings within such words as welcome. 235 00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:48.300 And different meanings in such words as sorry for Aboriginal Australians. 236 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:55.940 They're not as simplistic and short-handed as they are within the English lexicon. 237 00:14:56.160 --> 00:15:02.380 They actually carry with them a whole range of other meanings. 238 00:15:02.680 --> 00:15:03.560 So that if it's... 239 00:15:03.560 --> 00:15:08.640 And you can say, yes, we do this when we say welcome anyway. 240 00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:12.060 But when we look at it, it's not always the same. 241 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:21.200 We're only sort of welcoming that way that that is important to that 242 00:15:35.260 --> 00:15:37.660 It's always somebody else who did the bad stuff. 243 00:15:38.120 --> 00:15:40.320 It wasn't us. 244 00:15:41.380 --> 00:15:44.580 And, you know, my folks migrated here, et cetera. 245 00:15:44.820 --> 00:15:45.740 But you know something? 246 00:15:45.940 --> 00:15:47.380 When people migrate here, 247 00:15:47.500 --> 00:15:49.760 you're actually supposed to take on all of the history. 248 00:15:49.940 --> 00:15:52.240 You can't cherry-pick the good bits. 249 00:15:52.740 --> 00:15:56.080 You've actually got to take on board all of the bad bits. 250 00:15:56.280 --> 00:15:59.400 Now, the thing is that a lot of people who are... 251 00:15:59.940 --> 00:16:00.740 ..like people. 252 00:16:00.740 --> 00:16:06.160 A lot of people who are fleeing to this country, you know... 253 00:16:06.160 --> 00:16:10.600 I mean, we drive eight hours and we're in the same state, you know? 254 00:16:10.900 --> 00:16:14.000 So many people who are coming, 255 00:16:14.660 --> 00:16:17.640 they have experienced a lot of the things 256 00:16:17.640 --> 00:16:20.280 that Aboriginal Australians have experienced. 257 00:16:20.820 --> 00:16:23.220 And so it's... 258 00:16:23.220 --> 00:16:26.300 There's a recognition within that. 259 00:16:26.360 --> 00:16:28.660 So within a welcome, it's also saying, 260 00:16:29.500 --> 00:16:30.520 we realise... 261 00:16:30.520 --> 00:16:31.440 We realise that you are fleeing 262 00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:35.800 from something that is unbelievable and unimaginable. 263 00:16:37.420 --> 00:16:44.480 And so this is supposed to be a safe haven for you. 264 00:16:44.760 --> 00:16:48.340 But that notion of being a safe haven, I think, 265 00:16:48.340 --> 00:16:52.820 has, you know, has sort of been pushed to one side. 266 00:16:53.840 --> 00:16:55.180 And that's... 267 00:16:56.020 --> 00:16:59.900 You know, that builds up the rhetoric of, you know, 268 00:16:59.920 --> 00:17:00.500 who... 269 00:17:00.500 --> 00:17:01.460 Who this place is... 270 00:17:01.460 --> 00:17:02.860 Who this place is for. 271 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:04.820 And what do you have to do? 272 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:06.480 What do migrant peoples... 273 00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:10.100 What do boat peoples... 274 00:17:10.100 --> 00:17:11.840 What do refugees have to do 275 00:17:11.840 --> 00:17:14.280 to prove themselves to be worthy 276 00:17:15.460 --> 00:17:20.480 of existing on this continent and in this space? 277 00:17:21.020 --> 00:17:25.400 Well, you know, how many of you are going to go out 278 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:28.960 over this weekend or have been out over this weekend 279 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:29.640 and you're going... 280 00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:30.320 You've had Chinese. 281 00:17:31.000 --> 00:17:31.760 You're going to go. 282 00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:32.340 You're going to have... 283 00:17:32.340 --> 00:17:34.260 Oh, I might go to the Greek restaurant. 284 00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:36.640 You know, I might go to the Italian... 285 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:38.320 We have Italian at our house all the time. 286 00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:40.860 Apparently, I make a really good pasta sauce. 287 00:17:42.540 --> 00:17:46.880 And I was told that I make it better than my mother-in-law. 288 00:17:46.980 --> 00:17:49.320 You're all invited over to Jenny's house later. 289 00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:55.900 So, you know, why is it that we create hoops 290 00:17:56.400 --> 00:17:59.500 for people who are fleeing horrors 291 00:18:00.500 --> 00:18:03.220 that are unimaginable to us? 292 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:06.400 I think one of the big reasons why we do that 293 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:09.600 is because there's a deep underlying anxiety 294 00:18:09.600 --> 00:18:11.980 we have about our history that we feel that... 295 00:18:11.980 --> 00:18:15.420 Well, we know that there is this illegitimacy. 296 00:18:15.460 --> 00:18:19.840 And so we offset that anxiety through xenophobia. 297 00:18:20.280 --> 00:18:20.800 Uh-huh. 298 00:18:22.560 --> 00:18:25.420 And it's interesting the way things all sort of seem 299 00:18:25.420 --> 00:18:28.880 to be coming together with the debate around recognition, 300 00:18:30.500 --> 00:18:31.340 you know, the Republic. 301 00:18:31.700 --> 00:18:33.140 Those things are sort of coalescing, 302 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:35.420 whereas they used to be sort of separate issues. 303 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:40.940 And there's a sort of a deep desire for redemption, 304 00:18:41.080 --> 00:18:43.800 I think, in the wider Australian public. 305 00:18:44.040 --> 00:18:45.020 And it's kind of... 306 00:18:45.020 --> 00:18:47.980 This is going to sound silly because I'm not sort of that way inclined, 307 00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:52.340 but it's a kind of spiritual poverty in a way that we all suffer from 308 00:18:52.340 --> 00:18:55.600 and that we sort of want to overcome in some way. 309 00:18:55.820 --> 00:18:58.240 I think it's arriving here at 19 myself 310 00:18:59.600 --> 00:19:00.480 from Lebanon. 311 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:04.400 I really connected with some of the comments made before 312 00:19:05.560 --> 00:19:08.160 around identity, identity crisis, what does it mean 313 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:09.280 to be Australian, et cetera. 314 00:19:09.520 --> 00:19:11.300 And I remember the first time I had Vegemite, 315 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:12.480 that wasn't a pleasant experience. 316 00:19:12.620 --> 00:19:13.200 I thought it was Nutella. 317 00:19:14.420 --> 00:19:15.040 What about... 318 00:19:15.040 --> 00:19:16.600 What's your relationship to Vegemite now? 319 00:19:17.620 --> 00:19:18.380 Much improved. 320 00:19:18.740 --> 00:19:20.020 It's un-Australian, right? 321 00:19:20.560 --> 00:19:20.960 It's un-Australian. 322 00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:21.740 Well, then you made it. 323 00:19:21.760 --> 00:19:22.300 You're really made it. 324 00:19:23.040 --> 00:19:23.480 That's right. 325 00:19:23.600 --> 00:19:24.300 Yeah, you're fine. 326 00:19:24.320 --> 00:19:26.300 The first time you had a pie, the first time you had 327 00:19:26.300 --> 00:19:28.060 to learn what a snag is. 328 00:19:28.660 --> 00:19:29.040 Yeah. 329 00:19:29.120 --> 00:19:30.060 I mean, all those sort 330 00:19:30.060 --> 00:19:32.340 of languages, for me, the experience 331 00:19:32.340 --> 00:19:34.820 around identity crisis, I had an identity crisis process 332 00:19:34.820 --> 00:19:36.860 because I was trying to belong, I was trying to connect. 333 00:19:37.180 --> 00:19:41.360 And I guess what is the message from you around new arrival, 334 00:19:41.540 --> 00:19:43.660 migrants, people that are aspiring to come to Australia, 335 00:19:44.320 --> 00:19:45.620 what is your advice to them? 336 00:19:45.900 --> 00:19:48.840 How do they integrate into society? 337 00:19:49.080 --> 00:19:51.320 How do they get more involved into society in Australia? 338 00:19:51.500 --> 00:19:52.260 What do they need to do? 339 00:19:52.320 --> 00:19:53.460 Or do they need to do anything at all? 340 00:19:54.080 --> 00:19:57.720 I got a version of this question but in a much more hostile way 341 00:19:57.720 --> 00:19:59.500 when I was doing a public talk at a library, 342 00:20:00.060 --> 00:20:00.240 and I was talking to people who were not Australian. 343 00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:02.980 And I said to them, you know, what about those people who keep 344 00:20:02.980 --> 00:20:06.800 to themselves and speak in their own languages and just stay 345 00:20:06.800 --> 00:20:07.680 in their own communities. 346 00:20:08.020 --> 00:20:09.580 And I'm living in Sydney at the moment. 347 00:20:09.660 --> 00:20:10.800 I'm like, what, do you mean Mosman? 348 00:20:12.580 --> 00:20:13.380 You know, so. 349 00:20:15.820 --> 00:20:18.320 You know, and I feel like it's all, 350 00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:22.160 the responsibility is always placed on the people 351 00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:25.180 who aren't white to have to adjust. 352 00:20:25.800 --> 00:20:28.080 And, you know, I don't really see 353 00:20:28.760 --> 00:20:29.960 that many white Australians. 354 00:20:30.060 --> 00:20:31.460 I don't see any white Australians learning first languages, 355 00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:33.680 for instance, you know, First Nations languages. 356 00:20:35.120 --> 00:20:40.000 I find that kind of, you know, that kind 357 00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:44.560 of assumed dynamic a little bit, I don't know, a little bit strange. 358 00:20:45.840 --> 00:20:48.060 And at the same time, of course you want to participate 359 00:20:48.060 --> 00:20:48.880 in Australian culture. 360 00:20:49.020 --> 00:20:52.140 You know, I defy you to find a migrant who hasn't really tried 361 00:20:52.820 --> 00:20:57.500 to adjust and embrace everything about Australia that they can. 362 00:20:57.800 --> 00:20:59.980 But I look at someone like my grandmother, 363 00:21:00.060 --> 00:21:02.920 so my parents migrated here in the mid 1970s 364 00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:05.040 from Hong Kong is the easiest answer. 365 00:21:05.360 --> 00:21:08.480 And they took, and my grandmother, 366 00:21:08.760 --> 00:21:10.720 my dad's mum also migrated with them. 367 00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:12.480 She doesn't speak any English. 368 00:21:12.820 --> 00:21:17.560 And that whole conversation now about toughening the requirements 369 00:21:18.340 --> 00:21:21.620 of language to come into this country as a resident 370 00:21:21.620 --> 00:21:25.580 and then as a citizen, you know, I do find 371 00:21:25.580 --> 00:21:29.660 that discussion a little bit personally distressing 372 00:21:29.660 --> 00:21:30.040 because I think that's the way it is. 373 00:21:30.040 --> 00:21:33.340 My grandmother, you know, when you take the actual examples 374 00:21:33.340 --> 00:21:35.440 of people, if you actually talk to those people, 375 00:21:35.780 --> 00:21:37.820 they have tried their very best. 376 00:21:38.040 --> 00:21:42.300 But when you arrive here in a new country, you need, you know, 377 00:21:42.340 --> 00:21:45.220 you'll need resources if you're going to learn the new language. 378 00:21:45.380 --> 00:21:49.040 My grandma was really busy working seven nights a week. 379 00:21:49.420 --> 00:21:53.240 And if you're going to have a conversation about making it easy 380 00:21:53.240 --> 00:21:55.680 for these people to learn English, then you need 381 00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:57.900 to have a conversation in good faith about what resources, 382 00:21:58.080 --> 00:21:59.840 what new resources are going to be made 383 00:21:59.840 --> 00:22:02.420 to those community members to make that an easier task. 384 00:22:02.660 --> 00:22:04.440 I mean, I do think that that's a great idea. 385 00:22:04.820 --> 00:22:06.840 But where's the next part of the conversation 386 00:22:06.840 --> 00:22:09.040 and what are you actually announcing to make that happen? 387 00:22:10.520 --> 00:22:11.320 David, Jenny? 388 00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:15.880 Yeah, I mean, well, Australia has a history of having tests 389 00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:17.880 for people whether they're allowed to come in or not. 390 00:22:18.020 --> 00:22:20.400 And sort of any test that we bring in now has 391 00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:22.440 to have some awareness of that. 392 00:22:22.580 --> 00:22:24.240 But it is, I mean, it's a serious question because, 393 00:22:24.280 --> 00:22:29.120 I mean, we do, no matter how open-minded you are, 394 00:22:29.120 --> 00:22:31.620 we do actually want people to integrate. 395 00:22:31.860 --> 00:22:34.820 There are sort of requirements that we sort of, 396 00:22:34.820 --> 00:22:36.140 everyone has some sort of a list. 397 00:22:37.420 --> 00:22:40.200 And that plays out in interesting ways. 398 00:22:41.140 --> 00:22:45.060 I mean, we recently had the marriage equality vote 399 00:22:45.060 --> 00:22:50.220 and some of the areas that had the highest no vote were 400 00:22:50.220 --> 00:22:54.560 in Western Sydney and there's that sort of, that's a standard 401 00:22:54.560 --> 00:22:57.700