WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.220 What are we talking about this afternoon? 2 00:00:02.500 --> 00:00:07.620 Ladies and gentlemen, we've assembled a terrific panel 3 00:00:07.620 --> 00:00:10.480 to have a discussion about democracy, 4 00:00:10.740 --> 00:00:14.800 particularly democracy in Australia in 2018. 5 00:00:16.540 --> 00:00:19.100 So let's start by introducing the panel, 6 00:00:19.200 --> 00:00:20.840 ladies and gentlemen, Nicholas Gruen, 7 00:00:21.840 --> 00:00:24.460 Ruby Rose O'Halloran and John Keane, 8 00:00:24.520 --> 00:00:26.820 and let's go berserk and give it up, please, ladies and gentlemen. 9 00:00:27.540 --> 00:00:28.180 APPLAUSE 10 00:00:32.720 --> 00:00:35.180 Let's just quickly go through 11 00:00:35.180 --> 00:00:37.940 so you get a better idea of who these people are. 12 00:00:38.100 --> 00:00:39.480 Nicholas, where are you from? What do you do? 13 00:00:39.700 --> 00:00:40.600 Well, that's quite... 14 00:00:40.600 --> 00:00:43.780 I've never really been able to answer that question very easily, but... 15 00:00:43.780 --> 00:00:48.240 Would you like to answer as an interpretive dance, maybe? 16 00:00:49.280 --> 00:00:50.520 Well, that's what I was doing. 17 00:00:52.400 --> 00:00:55.740 But, no, I run a company called Lateral Economics 18 00:00:57.220 --> 00:00:59.420 and have been around the... 19 00:01:00.360 --> 00:01:04.600 political and policy-making arena for a long time. 20 00:01:05.200 --> 00:01:06.740 And, Ruby, you're with GetUp. 21 00:01:06.900 --> 00:01:09.560 I am, yes. I am a senior democracy campaigner at GetUp. 22 00:01:09.640 --> 00:01:11.660 I'm also GetUp's only democracy campaigner. 23 00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:12.400 LAUGHTER 24 00:01:13.560 --> 00:01:15.420 So that also means you're the junior. 25 00:01:16.080 --> 00:01:17.020 Also the junior. 26 00:01:17.860 --> 00:01:19.580 John, where are you from? What are you up to? 27 00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:23.820 I was born at the end of the Adelaide airport runway. 28 00:01:24.760 --> 00:01:25.240 LAUGHTER 29 00:01:25.240 --> 00:01:26.940 On a farm, it's true. 30 00:01:27.080 --> 00:01:29.260 And I had a very sad life. 31 00:01:29.420 --> 00:01:31.900 I did nothing but write about, broadcast, 32 00:01:33.140 --> 00:01:37.460 do public events on the past, present and future of democracy. 33 00:01:38.380 --> 00:01:39.280 Sad life. 34 00:01:40.580 --> 00:01:42.260 As we're about to find out. 35 00:01:42.320 --> 00:01:45.880 Ladies and gentlemen, we had a discussion before this session 36 00:01:45.880 --> 00:01:49.120 and we decided that if it's OK with you guys, 37 00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:51.080 the best way to have this discussion 38 00:01:51.080 --> 00:01:55.340 is if you have a question as proceedings are unfolding, 39 00:01:55.580 --> 00:01:58.480 please raise your hand and we will take your question 40 00:01:58.480 --> 00:01:58.720 and... 41 00:01:59.420 --> 00:02:00.580 ..as we go along. 42 00:02:00.800 --> 00:02:03.640 Please keep it relevant to what's being discussed. 43 00:02:03.960 --> 00:02:05.580 No statements from the floor 44 00:02:05.580 --> 00:02:07.780 or I'll have to do a Tony Jones and shut you down. 45 00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:09.740 But please do join in 46 00:02:09.740 --> 00:02:11.640 and if you do have a relevant question, 47 00:02:11.780 --> 00:02:15.320 please raise your hand and we can deal with it as they occur. 48 00:02:17.100 --> 00:02:19.940 So, when we're thinking about Australian democracy, 49 00:02:20.140 --> 00:02:24.500 I think this discussion is going to be divided into three blocks. 50 00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:27.840 Are there problems with Australian democracy? 51 00:02:28.640 --> 00:02:29.400 As it stands. 52 00:02:29.400 --> 00:02:31.340 And as it operates today. 53 00:02:32.480 --> 00:02:34.140 And what are those problems? 54 00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:39.180 I think then we need to think about the consequences of those problems 55 00:02:39.180 --> 00:02:42.280 and then we can round out with what are we going to do? 56 00:02:42.880 --> 00:02:46.480 Is there a better way for us to proceed as a democracy? 57 00:02:46.760 --> 00:02:49.100 So, starting on my left, Nicholas, 58 00:02:49.600 --> 00:02:53.820 what do you think are the major problems with democracy in Australia today? 59 00:02:54.060 --> 00:02:55.720 Well, I'm going to go fairly deep 60 00:02:56.360 --> 00:02:59.380 and I'm going to say that the major problem with democracy, 61 00:02:59.380 --> 00:03:02.000 is that over the last 200 years, 62 00:03:02.320 --> 00:03:08.420 we've worked ourselves into a frame for democracy in which... 63 00:03:08.420 --> 00:03:09.640 Sorry? 64 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:11.880 Yeah, just need to hold a bit closer. 65 00:03:11.880 --> 00:03:13.420 Sorry, yeah, that's better, isn't it? 66 00:03:13.460 --> 00:03:14.120 Yeah, sorry. 67 00:03:14.380 --> 00:03:15.620 I could hear perfectly. 68 00:03:16.460 --> 00:03:17.140 Thanks. 69 00:03:17.660 --> 00:03:20.720 We've worked ourselves into a frame for democracy 70 00:03:21.380 --> 00:03:26.580 which is largely like we're consumers in a shop. 71 00:03:27.220 --> 00:03:29.040 We have the... 72 00:03:29.380 --> 00:03:31.120 The purveyors of political goods, 73 00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:33.320 they're called politicians 74 00:03:33.320 --> 00:03:35.920 and they're surrounded by journalists and so on. 75 00:03:36.020 --> 00:03:37.320 And we're in the shop 76 00:03:37.320 --> 00:03:39.940 and we're progressively more and more unhappy 77 00:03:39.940 --> 00:03:41.980 with what's being served up to us. 78 00:03:42.220 --> 00:03:44.620 But we're not in a shop, we're in a society. 79 00:03:45.540 --> 00:03:48.640 And the whole metaphor is wrong, 80 00:03:49.380 --> 00:03:50.560 but of course we're... 81 00:03:51.180 --> 00:03:53.840 It's now not only highly acculturated 82 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:56.180 but highly structured into the process. 83 00:03:56.240 --> 00:03:59.120 So, if you want to be your own politician, 84 00:03:59.120 --> 00:04:01.760 which is what you could have been in Athens, 85 00:04:03.700 --> 00:04:04.220 you... 86 00:04:04.220 --> 00:04:04.920 That's... 87 00:04:04.920 --> 00:04:06.620 You have to professionalise yourself. 88 00:04:06.780 --> 00:04:09.160 You have to work at it for the next 10 years 89 00:04:09.160 --> 00:04:11.020 to become a politician. 90 00:04:11.300 --> 00:04:12.180 And by the... 91 00:04:12.180 --> 00:04:15.300 And you will have had to have abided 92 00:04:15.300 --> 00:04:18.540 by the central rules of political war-making. 93 00:04:19.300 --> 00:04:20.720 And by that stage, 94 00:04:20.760 --> 00:04:23.260 you won't really be the same kind of person. 95 00:04:23.340 --> 00:04:25.240 If you are the sort of person... 96 00:04:25.240 --> 00:04:26.120 An ordinary person, 97 00:04:26.340 --> 00:04:27.600 you won't... 98 00:04:28.920 --> 00:04:29.700 You won't be the same kind of person 99 00:04:29.700 --> 00:04:30.920 And that's not how it works. 100 00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:33.140 You have to show discipline and so on. 101 00:04:33.380 --> 00:04:36.160 So, I think we've got a huge problem. 102 00:04:39.220 --> 00:04:41.240 Because we've all got the wrong metaphor. 103 00:04:41.580 --> 00:04:43.740 And the other thing we do is that we say, 104 00:04:43.900 --> 00:04:45.800 well, we're the good guys, we're the people. 105 00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:49.440 It's these politicians who are lying to us. 106 00:04:50.320 --> 00:04:52.060 But we vote for the politicians. 107 00:04:53.080 --> 00:04:55.480 And you can't wriggle out of that one 108 00:04:55.480 --> 00:04:58.580 by saying, well, the choices aren't very good. 109 00:04:58.660 --> 00:05:00.900 Because the choices got the way they got 110 00:05:00.900 --> 00:05:03.200 because we vote the way we vote. 111 00:05:03.620 --> 00:05:06.780 And as Prime Minister... 112 00:05:06.780 --> 00:05:08.960 Prime Minister Hacker says to Bernard 113 00:05:08.960 --> 00:05:10.060 in the great... 114 00:05:10.060 --> 00:05:13.400 In the great program, Yes, Prime Minister, 115 00:05:14.080 --> 00:05:17.340 Bernard, it seems that the civil service exists 116 00:05:18.040 --> 00:05:20.760 merely to prevent politicians 117 00:05:20.760 --> 00:05:24.920 from implementing the sacred promises 118 00:05:24.920 --> 00:05:26.340 they've made to the people. 119 00:05:26.780 --> 00:05:29.020 And Bernard says, well, somebody has to. 120 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:32.700 So, that's the situation that we're in. 121 00:05:32.840 --> 00:05:35.240 And we're responsible for that situation 122 00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:37.840 even though we'd love to blame somebody else. 123 00:05:39.400 --> 00:05:40.860 Okay, so Ruby, 124 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:44.680 what problems do you identify with our democracy? 125 00:05:45.440 --> 00:05:47.160 Well, I'm glad that you actually... 126 00:05:47.160 --> 00:05:48.600 How's that volume? Good? 127 00:05:49.120 --> 00:05:49.620 Closer. 128 00:05:50.100 --> 00:05:50.600 Closer? 129 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:52.980 So, I'm glad you got us started 130 00:05:52.980 --> 00:05:54.900 on the conversation about metaphors. 131 00:05:54.920 --> 00:05:57.260 Because I love talking about the right metaphors to use 132 00:05:57.260 --> 00:05:58.400 when you're talking about democracy. 133 00:05:58.860 --> 00:06:00.440 Because it really bothers me. 134 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:01.580 People often talk about democracy 135 00:06:01.580 --> 00:06:03.860 as being a true democracy or a healthy democracy. 136 00:06:04.440 --> 00:06:06.920 And I think that that is ultimately misrepresentative 137 00:06:07.520 --> 00:06:09.760 and leads people to be quite placated 138 00:06:09.760 --> 00:06:12.840 in the way that they approach their dealings 139 00:06:12.840 --> 00:06:14.180 with trying to improve our democracy. 140 00:06:14.460 --> 00:06:16.080 My preferred metaphor for a democracy 141 00:06:16.080 --> 00:06:19.960 is that it is a very, very complicated machine. 142 00:06:20.600 --> 00:06:21.960 It's a manufacturing machine 143 00:06:21.960 --> 00:06:24.900 and it's something that we need to make sure that we have. 144 00:06:24.900 --> 00:06:26.280 It's something that we maintain and repair 145 00:06:26.280 --> 00:06:29.080 and fix damage that is subsequently done to it. 146 00:06:29.460 --> 00:06:32.220 But also that we need to improve 147 00:06:32.220 --> 00:06:33.720 and keep up with the times. 148 00:06:33.840 --> 00:06:34.860 You know, as things change, 149 00:06:35.060 --> 00:06:36.820 we need to improve that machine 150 00:06:36.820 --> 00:06:38.300 and make it better for us. 151 00:06:38.360 --> 00:06:39.660 And it takes a lot of work 152 00:06:39.660 --> 00:06:41.860 to get it to be what it needs to be. 153 00:06:42.540 --> 00:06:45.240 And I think that when that machine is functioning 154 00:06:45.900 --> 00:06:47.240 as well as it possibly can be, 155 00:06:47.900 --> 00:06:49.840 the way I would define a democracy 156 00:06:49.840 --> 00:06:51.700 that's working for the people 157 00:06:51.700 --> 00:06:54.800 is that political decisions are being made 158 00:06:54.800 --> 00:06:56.640 and they're being made in a way 159 00:06:56.640 --> 00:06:59.260 that services the genuine wants 160 00:06:59.260 --> 00:07:01.900 and interests of everyday people 161 00:07:01.900 --> 00:07:04.180 over the interests of corporate money 162 00:07:04.180 --> 00:07:05.420 or career politicians 163 00:07:05.420 --> 00:07:06.840 or vested interests 164 00:07:06.840 --> 00:07:08.940 who have too much influence in Parliament. 165 00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:12.180 And I think if I were to assess 166 00:07:12.180 --> 00:07:13.800 the state of Australian democracy today, 167 00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:16.760 I would say that the machine is working 168 00:07:16.760 --> 00:07:18.420 but only just. 169 00:07:18.920 --> 00:07:22.320 There are a lot of threats that are facing it 170 00:07:22.320 --> 00:07:24.420 and we really need to come together at the moment 171 00:07:24.420 --> 00:07:24.780 and we need to come together at the moment 172 00:07:24.800 --> 00:07:26.480 and work out how we can fight that 173 00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:27.700 as a people-powered movement. 174 00:07:27.980 --> 00:07:31.320 And John, your problems with the machinery 175 00:07:31.320 --> 00:07:32.680 of governments in Australia? 176 00:07:33.060 --> 00:07:38.700 Well, I have sympathy for Nicholas. 177 00:07:38.780 --> 00:07:40.180 I think he's a bit too Greek. 178 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:44.260 But we'll talk about that in a moment. 179 00:07:44.460 --> 00:07:47.760 And Ruby Rose, I very much share this. 180 00:07:47.780 --> 00:07:49.220 I'm not sure about the metaphor of the machine. 181 00:07:49.380 --> 00:07:51.060 I mean, I think two things are worth saying 182 00:07:51.060 --> 00:07:52.820 just to sort of stir up 183 00:07:52.820 --> 00:07:54.620 the discussion. 184 00:07:55.960 --> 00:07:59.000 Once upon a time in this country, 185 00:07:59.160 --> 00:08:04.420 it was noted by lots of overseas observers 186 00:08:04.420 --> 00:08:08.880 that this was a lively, innovative democracy 187 00:08:08.880 --> 00:08:11.240 in representative parliamentary form. 188 00:08:11.540 --> 00:08:14.800 And a lot of things happened here in the 19th century 189 00:08:14.800 --> 00:08:18.220 that were nearly first by world standards. 190 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:20.340 The secret ballot, 191 00:08:22.140 --> 00:08:24.940 the voting in of constitutions, 192 00:08:24.940 --> 00:08:27.340 it happened in South Australia in the early 1850s, 193 00:08:28.640 --> 00:08:30.260 by adult male suffrage. 194 00:08:30.400 --> 00:08:32.220 It's very rare that democracies 195 00:08:32.220 --> 00:08:34.920 democratically institute themselves. 196 00:08:35.240 --> 00:08:36.700 It's one of the great paradoxes. 197 00:08:36.740 --> 00:08:40.120 And it's true, half the population was excluded, women. 198 00:08:40.300 --> 00:08:42.340 We were the first to grant, 199 00:08:43.660 --> 00:08:45.720 after a long struggle, women, 200 00:08:45.820 --> 00:08:48.260 the right to vote and the right to stand. 201 00:08:48.500 --> 00:08:50.320 Do not listen to the Kiwis, 202 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:51.740 if they tell you they did it first, 203 00:08:51.840 --> 00:08:54.000 because it happened first here in South Australia. 204 00:08:55.600 --> 00:08:59.080 New Zealanders did not extend the right of women to stand. 205 00:08:59.300 --> 00:09:00.200 You can have the vote, 206 00:09:00.220 --> 00:09:02.560 but you can't be trusted to be a representative. 207 00:09:04.540 --> 00:09:06.320 We produced a constitution, 208 00:09:07.800 --> 00:09:10.060 a sort of compound federal constitution 209 00:09:10.060 --> 00:09:11.600 that's pretty interesting. 210 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:16.220 We had the first national labour government in the world. 211 00:09:16.400 --> 00:09:18.420 We had an arbitration system 212 00:09:18.420 --> 00:09:20.220 to deal with industrial conflict. 213 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:24.320 And so, and I'd say that by comparison, 214 00:09:25.040 --> 00:09:26.320 we're now in a period, 215 00:09:26.340 --> 00:09:28.540 it's been developing for a couple of decades, 216 00:09:28.820 --> 00:09:36.960 of sloppiness, laziness, parochialism, complacency, 217 00:09:37.160 --> 00:09:41.380 and generally a lack of democratic imagination 218 00:09:41.380 --> 00:09:42.540 about the reforms. 219 00:09:42.820 --> 00:09:48.160 I have a slogan for either of our major political parties to adopt. 220 00:09:48.580 --> 00:09:50.200 It's been satisfactory. 221 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:52.280 It's been satisfactory for about the last 20 years. 222 00:09:52.420 --> 00:09:54.840 Now is the time for complacency. 223 00:09:55.420 --> 00:09:56.720 And, yeah. 224 00:09:57.280 --> 00:09:59.500 And then on the problems, 225 00:10:01.080 --> 00:10:03.840 we've already heard a couple. 226 00:10:04.060 --> 00:10:06.500 I mean, I think the disappearance 227 00:10:06.500 --> 00:10:09.620 of maybe 200,000 young people 228 00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:12.300 off the electoral roll is a problem. 229 00:10:12.820 --> 00:10:15.340 And that has happened in a system 230 00:10:15.340 --> 00:10:17.960 where, of course, we have compulsory voting. 231 00:10:17.960 --> 00:10:20.900 The levels of disaffection are rising. 232 00:10:21.160 --> 00:10:24.280 And they are sometimes of Russian standards. 233 00:10:24.840 --> 00:10:27.200 If you really want to be shocked 234 00:10:27.200 --> 00:10:29.440 and not sleep for a few nights, 235 00:10:29.520 --> 00:10:32.920 have a look at the Museum of Australian Democracy's reports. 236 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:34.960 On the level of disaffection, 237 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:36.920 you know, over 90% of us 238 00:10:36.920 --> 00:10:39.340 actually think politicians always lie. 239 00:10:40.140 --> 00:10:43.100 I mean, this is really not good, to say the least. 240 00:10:43.640 --> 00:10:45.660 We have a precariat developing. 241 00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:47.500 We didn't have much discussion about that 242 00:10:47.500 --> 00:10:48.520 in the last couple of days. 243 00:10:48.660 --> 00:10:50.660 You know, the so-called gig economy. 244 00:10:50.980 --> 00:10:54.600 Mainly young people who are unsure about their super. 245 00:10:54.720 --> 00:10:57.900 They don't know about what kind of care they will have 246 00:10:57.900 --> 00:10:59.440 when they grow older and so on. 247 00:10:59.540 --> 00:11:02.180 I think the failure of the Uluru Statement, 248 00:11:02.280 --> 00:11:04.900 we haven't, you know, it's stalled. 249 00:11:05.040 --> 00:11:09.320 We haven't extended the democratic principle 250 00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:12.000 to peoples whom we annihilated, almost. 251 00:11:12.600 --> 00:11:14.540 That is unfinished business. 252 00:11:14.940 --> 00:11:16.040 And finally, 253 00:11:16.040 --> 00:11:19.320 one thing as a historian of democracy, 254 00:11:19.580 --> 00:11:22.200 and I'm just about to publish a new book 255 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:23.120 on the future of democracy, 256 00:11:23.320 --> 00:11:25.780 one of the really unusual things of our time, 257 00:11:25.820 --> 00:11:27.460 of this generation, 258 00:11:27.680 --> 00:11:30.780 is the financialization of markets, 259 00:11:30.860 --> 00:11:32.300 of capitalist economies. 260 00:11:33.280 --> 00:11:36.220 We tend to think of democratically elected governments 261 00:11:36.220 --> 00:11:38.400 as in charge of revenues, 262 00:11:38.540 --> 00:11:40.500 you know, through taxation and so on. 263 00:11:40.880 --> 00:11:43.700 And what in fact has been happening 264 00:11:43.700 --> 00:11:46.020 for, since roughly 19th century, 265 00:11:46.040 --> 00:11:46.660 since the 1970s, 266 00:11:46.660 --> 00:11:50.440 is that the grip of the banks and credit institutions 267 00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:53.060 on all actually existing democracies 268 00:11:53.060 --> 00:11:54.940 have been growing to the point where money supply, 269 00:11:55.680 --> 00:11:58.500 well over 90% of money supply in this country 270 00:11:58.500 --> 00:11:59.880 is not controlled by state, 271 00:12:00.020 --> 00:12:02.340 it's actually controlled by credit and banking institutions. 272 00:12:02.700 --> 00:12:05.760 And if you allow them to supervise themselves, 273 00:12:06.020 --> 00:12:09.540 it's a bit like allowing goats to look after the garden. 274 00:12:09.760 --> 00:12:11.940 And as you know, this government, 275 00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:12.800 the federal government, 276 00:12:12.800 --> 00:12:15.860 was very reticent about a royal commission. 277 00:12:16.120 --> 00:12:17.560 It was forced into a royal commission, 278 00:12:17.780 --> 00:12:19.360 and we now witness, you know, 279 00:12:19.380 --> 00:12:22.520 scenes of bankers passing out into ambulances 280 00:12:22.520 --> 00:12:24.980 as they come out from testimony. 281 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:27.640 These are the kinds of issues 282 00:12:27.640 --> 00:12:30.920 that I think this, you know, complacent democracy, 283 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:34.020 and I'm deeply responsible for this, 284 00:12:34.120 --> 00:12:34.840 I feel it, 285 00:12:34.920 --> 00:12:36.360 these are the kinds of issues 286 00:12:36.360 --> 00:12:37.720 that it seems to me need addressing. 287 00:12:37.940 --> 00:12:39.400 And I don't know how to do it. 288 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:41.520 I think it's probably got to come from below. 289 00:12:41.520 --> 00:12:43.380 It has to be get up, 290 00:12:43.420 --> 00:12:47.920 it has to be Nicholas Gruen's making the case 291 00:12:47.920 --> 00:12:49.640 against representative democracy. 292 00:12:50.900 --> 00:12:52.560 A change of government would help. 293 00:12:53.260 --> 00:12:58.180 And using cities and states as leverage, 294 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:00.880 that's often how reforms happen in this country, 295 00:13:01.520 --> 00:13:04.360 that's all on the democratic agenda, I think. 296 00:13:04.500 --> 00:13:06.820 That's my campaign speech for democracy. 297 00:13:11.660 --> 00:13:12.100 Terrific. 298 00:13:12.140 --> 00:13:14.060 I'll let you get off the stump just for a moment. 299 00:13:14.100 --> 00:13:15.600 We have a question from the audience. 300 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:19.400 Between me putting my hand up and you finishing speaking, 301 00:13:19.620 --> 00:13:22.480 you may have answered it, but what's the cause? 302 00:13:22.760 --> 00:13:24.220 Because you go two decades, 303 00:13:24.500 --> 00:13:26.460 well, that takes us back to John Howard. 304 00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:29.060 I mean, is he, is it all his fault? 305 00:13:29.240 --> 00:13:32.700 Or is it all, or, and it's probably unpopular in this audience, 306 00:13:32.880 --> 00:13:34.400 is it all for conkeiting 307 00:13:34.400 --> 00:13:36.520 because they're the ones that introduced 308 00:13:36.520 --> 00:13:38.000 the economic rationalisation? 309 00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:40.880 Or are we talking global trends? 310 00:13:40.880 --> 00:13:42.460 We're talking global trends. 311 00:13:42.540 --> 00:13:44.200 OK, because that wasn't clear to me. 312 00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:47.840 So we're talking the collapse of social democracy in the 70s, 313 00:13:47.880 --> 00:13:49.420 the coming of neoliberalism. 314 00:13:49.580 --> 00:13:51.600 No, I'm not. I'm not. 315 00:13:51.920 --> 00:13:57.060 So, I'm, my frame for this is fast food. 316 00:13:58.460 --> 00:14:00.020 OK? Fast food. 317 00:14:01.380 --> 00:14:03.260 Why am I talking about fast food? 318 00:14:03.520 --> 00:14:08.720 Because fast food comes about from people competing 319 00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:10.860 to minimise the impact 320 00:14:10.880 --> 00:14:13.080 and maximise the cost and maximise the profit 321 00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:17.080 of harvesting certain human appetites 322 00:14:17.080 --> 00:14:19.680 for salt, for fat, for sugar, 323 00:14:19.720 --> 00:14:23.620 and that doesn't trigger the disgust reflex. 324 00:14:24.880 --> 00:14:26.140 That's fast food. OK? 325 00:14:26.880 --> 00:14:35.700 And what we've got is a commoditised political landscape 326 00:14:36.880 --> 00:14:40.480 in which everything is optimised to within an inch of its life. 327 00:14:40.880 --> 00:14:45.040 Now, I think that lots of the campaigns that GetUp run, 328 00:14:45.320 --> 00:14:46.880 I agree with them, 329 00:14:46.940 --> 00:14:48.800 but they're all optimised as well. 330 00:14:49.220 --> 00:14:52.000 They'll test 20 phrases 331 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:55.300 and they'll test which ones get clicked on first, 332 00:14:55.540 --> 00:15:00.220 and they're running a shadow data stream 333 00:15:00.880 --> 00:15:06.960 which is like, in some senses, Cambridge Analytica. 334 00:15:07.340 --> 00:15:09.760 Now, we think it's less spooky. 335 00:15:09.760 --> 00:15:15.760 If I was trying to campaign on any of these things, 336 00:15:15.820 --> 00:15:17.000 I'd do the same thing. 337 00:15:18.180 --> 00:15:20.540 Just as if I was trying to make as much money 338 00:15:20.540 --> 00:15:22.120 as I possibly could out of food, 339 00:15:22.260 --> 00:15:26.860 I would do the same thing as fast food vendors. 340 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:31.340 So, what we've got is a system 341 00:15:31.340 --> 00:15:34.860 which has been optimised over the last few decades 342 00:15:34.860 --> 00:15:37.280 but starting a couple of hundred years ago 343 00:15:37.900 --> 00:15:43.260 which had a culture which was a kind of... 344 00:15:43.260 --> 00:15:45.160 Well, I mean, you know, it was a racist culture, 345 00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:46.420 it was a sexist culture, 346 00:15:46.520 --> 00:15:48.500 there were all kinds of things about that culture, 347 00:15:48.600 --> 00:15:50.500 but it kind of knew itself 348 00:15:50.500 --> 00:15:54.580 and it was a culture of everyday life. 349 00:15:55.220 --> 00:15:57.920 And that's sort of slowly gone 350 00:15:59.560 --> 00:16:01.460 and this is where we are. 351 00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:03.740 Ruby, it looks like you want to jump in there. 352 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:06.880 Certainly do, but I think there might be a question first. 353 00:16:06.880 --> 00:16:09.500 No, I'd like to hear your response first 354 00:16:09.500 --> 00:16:11.140 and then we can go to the question at the back. 355 00:16:12.900 --> 00:16:14.020 Wow, where to begin? 356 00:16:14.540 --> 00:16:18.320 So, the implication that the way that GetUp runs digital campaigns 357 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:21.560 is anything like the shadowy stuff that happens on Facebook 358 00:16:21.560 --> 00:16:24.360 or Cambridge Analytica is completely absurd. 359 00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:28.040 We are a progressive campaigning outfit. 360 00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:30.480 We have a million members across Australia 361 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:33.760 who we are trying to speak to, but more importantly... 362 00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:36.860 So, we're saying the implication is that 363 00:16:36.880 --> 00:16:36.980 the way that the way that the campaign is run 364 00:16:36.980 --> 00:16:39.380 So, the implication that GetUp is anything like any of the shadowy things 365 00:16:39.380 --> 00:16:41.540 that are happening in the Facebook, Cambridge Analytica, 366 00:16:41.620 --> 00:16:44.120 sphere of the world is completely absurd. 367 00:16:44.440 --> 00:16:46.240 We are a campaigning organisation. 368 00:16:46.740 --> 00:16:49.680 We have a million members across Australia. 369 00:16:49.920 --> 00:16:53.360 We primarily communicate with our members on digital channels. 370 00:16:53.700 --> 00:16:55.740 And the thing that's really crucial to understand 371 00:16:55.740 --> 00:16:58.000 is we're trying to speak to all of our members, 372 00:16:58.260 --> 00:17:01.600 but more importantly, we're trying to listen to all of our members. 373 00:17:02.100 --> 00:17:05.280 And, you know, as a very small team of campaigners, 374 00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:07.260 we're not just in Sydney and Melbourne. 375 00:17:07.540 --> 00:17:11.460 The only way that we can truly listen to what our members are trying to say 376 00:17:11.460 --> 00:17:14.340 is to look at the data that they are giving us. 377 00:17:14.760 --> 00:17:17.620 So, you know, you say that we test 20 different things 378 00:17:17.620 --> 00:17:20.220 as if that's a bad thing and then go with the best one. 379 00:17:20.440 --> 00:17:24.900 But what we're actually doing is putting 20 different things out to our membership 380 00:17:24.900 --> 00:17:26.920 and seeing what makes people excited 381 00:17:26.920 --> 00:17:29.360 and seeing what campaigns people want to get behind 382 00:17:29.360 --> 00:17:31.820 and what campaigns people want to try and make impact on. 383 00:17:32.040 --> 00:17:34.140 And so, we actually have a saying at GetUp. 384 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:36.160 We say, if you're not looking at your data, 385 00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:37.680 you're not listening to your members. 386 00:17:37.860 --> 00:17:39.860 And if you're not listening to your members, you're a dickhead. 387 00:17:40.060 --> 00:17:41.100 So that's... 388 00:17:41.780 --> 00:17:44.180 That is why we are such a data-focused organisation, 389 00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:48.040 which I actually think is ultimately a good thing, 390 00:17:48.120 --> 00:17:49.520 not just for Australian democracy, 391 00:17:49.620 --> 00:17:53.260 but also for the democracy of the way that GetUp is run as an organisation. 392 00:17:53.860 --> 00:17:55.440 And then just finally, I'd say, 393 00:17:55.540 --> 00:17:59.560 you speak as if the comparison between fast food 394 00:17:59.560 --> 00:18:02.760 and saying that they're trying to make as much money as we can, as they can, 395 00:18:02.920 --> 00:18:04.480 and comparing that to GetUp... 396 00:18:04.480 --> 00:18:05.860 GetUp isn't trying to make money. 397 00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:08.180 GetUp is trying to make progressive social change. 398 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:09.780 You're trying to maximise your impact. 399 00:18:10.060 --> 00:18:11.500 Yes. Exactly, which is a good thing. 400 00:18:11.600 --> 00:18:14.040 I think that anyone here who supports GetUp's campaigns, 401 00:18:14.220 --> 00:18:15.240 as you said that you do, 402 00:18:15.380 --> 00:18:18.120 would say that us maximising our impact is a good thing. 403 00:18:18.620 --> 00:18:20.900 Well, it's wonderful that there is an organisation 404 00:18:20.900 --> 00:18:23.960 where a dickhead is one of the demographics. 405 00:18:24.580 --> 00:18:27.740 Now, let's go to the question of the lady at the back. 406 00:18:27.780 --> 00:18:29.840 Hello. So, I want to continue on this conversation 407 00:18:29.840 --> 00:18:31.160 around democracy and technology, 408 00:18:31.300 --> 00:18:32.920 but look at it in a more positive light, 409 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:34.860 as we started going towards what you were saying. 410 00:18:34.860 --> 00:18:38.700 How can and should technology be helping democracy 411 00:18:38.700 --> 00:18:41.560 in terms of, like, constituents getting in touch 412 00:18:41.560 --> 00:18:44.100 with their, like, MPs and all that kind of stuff? 413 00:18:44.180 --> 00:18:46.740 How can technology actively and positively help democracy? 414 00:18:47.740 --> 00:18:51.120 Yeah, can't we bring democracy into the digital age, John? 415 00:18:52.340 --> 00:18:56.520 I was hoping that Ruby would fill in for me. 416 00:18:56.600 --> 00:18:59.160 We can get to Ruby in a moment. I want to hear from you. 417 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:01.700 I mean, I wanted to go back a little bit 418 00:19:01.700 --> 00:19:04.060 before we go straight into that question. 419 00:19:04.060 --> 00:19:11.260 Because I think that, Nicholas, with the greatest respect, 420 00:19:11.380 --> 00:19:18.920 and I really admire the guts that goes into your large complaint 421 00:19:18.920 --> 00:19:21.100 against representative democracy, 422 00:19:21.400 --> 00:19:27.340 I think you're throwing away a tool that's really vital 423 00:19:27.340 --> 00:19:30.680 for the constraint of power and transformation of institutions. 424 00:19:31.160 --> 00:19:31.400 I agree. Not throwing it away. 425 00:19:31.400 --> 00:19:34.040 And I think your image of the history of democracy 426 00:19:34.060 --> 00:19:35.700 and representative democracy is not right. 427 00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:39.280 And I think you, by calling it aristocracy, as you did yesterday, 428 00:19:39.500 --> 00:19:42.180 I think this is actually misrepresentation. 429 00:19:42.340 --> 00:19:45.100 And I think that in Australia, as elsewhere, 430 00:19:45.320 --> 00:19:51.260 one of the really basic radical reforms that's needed, 431 00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:54.440 Bernie Sanders spoke about a political revolution, 432 00:19:54.800 --> 00:19:57.220 I'm kind of in that frame of mind at the moment, 433 00:19:57.320 --> 00:20:02.460 is to rejuvenate electoral representative politics. 434 00:20:02.460 --> 00:20:06.380 And the only way it can be done, it will not happen through the parties, 435 00:20:06.460 --> 00:20:08.560 and it will not happen through parliament and governments. 436 00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:10.180 It's got to come from outside. 437 00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:18.280 And in that sense, our years feel to me a bit like the 1830s or 1840s. 438 00:20:19.020 --> 00:20:23.720 Hardly any trade unions, friendly societies and cooperatives 439 00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:28.720 trying to keep alive public spirit, disenfranchisement of people, 440 00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:30.640 great gap between rich and poor. 441 00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:35.060 It took most of the 19th century and the early years of the 20th century 442 00:20:35.060 --> 00:20:37.660 to breathe life into the principle of the universal franchise. 443 00:20:37.820 --> 00:20:38.740 So I think we're up to that. 444 00:20:38.840 --> 00:20:46.540 About technology, I sat through yesterday a very interesting session here on media. 445 00:20:47.100 --> 00:20:54.080 And I would hope that we have a discussion about it before we leave at quarter to five or ten to five. 446 00:20:54.180 --> 00:21:00.540 Because I think this is the domain in which the technology question is really, really important. 447 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:02.900 And I wrote a lot about this. 448 00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:05.220 There's a communications revolution going on. 449 00:21:05.280 --> 00:21:06.020 It's not finished. 450 00:21:06.260 --> 00:21:08.980 It has its dark sides we're beginning to see. 451 00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:13.180 It's not only the birth of big conglomerates. 452 00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:17.580 And it's not only the China model where you harness the internet revolution 453 00:21:17.580 --> 00:21:20.580 for the sake of strong governmental rule. 454 00:21:20.840 --> 00:21:22.900 It's also the politics of algorithms. 455 00:21:23.520 --> 00:21:26.040 We're beginning to learn those dark sides. 456 00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:30.620 But the positive, constructive, democratizing 457 00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:32.680 effects are still with us. 458 00:21:32.760 --> 00:21:34.900 And we've still got lots of opportunities. 459 00:21:35.180 --> 00:21:41.080 In this country, I think what concretely it means is not only the defense of the ABC, 460 00:21:42.320 --> 00:21:44.900 but also, nobody claps. 461 00:21:45.020 --> 00:21:45.620 That's sad. 462 00:21:47.840 --> 00:21:48.980 Hello, ABC. 463 00:21:49.640 --> 00:21:56.400 But I think experimenting with platforms that take advantage of new digital network information flows. 464 00:21:57.300 --> 00:22:00.120 I'd say that GetUp does this. 465 00:22:00.140 --> 00:22:00.620 I'd say that GetUp does this. 466 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:04.640 I would say the conversation for which I've written a lot is an Australian first. 467 00:22:04.840 --> 00:22:09.520 And it's a public service platform that gets academics out of their bunkers. 468 00:22:11.260 --> 00:22:18.100 The development of a much more complex ecology of news and information platforms 469 00:22:18.100 --> 00:22:23.940 is a really important thing for democracy because to come to basics, and I'll stop. 470 00:22:24.380 --> 00:22:25.540 What is democracy? 471 00:22:25.820 --> 00:22:29.840 It's self-government of people, I would say, through their representatives. 472 00:22:29.840 --> 00:22:36.800 But have you ever thought that democracy is common ownership of the means of decision-making 473 00:22:37.840 --> 00:22:40.380 from the household through to the battlefield? 474 00:22:41.120 --> 00:22:44.640 That is what democracy historically was all about. 475 00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:51.360 That the privatization of power by tyrants or by aristocrats is not cool. 476 00:22:52.520 --> 00:22:57.100 And so what we're losing, I think, is that basic sense. 477 00:22:57.260 --> 00:22:59.820 And the regaining of it has got to do with the fact that democracy is a very important 478 00:22:59.820 --> 00:22:59.900 part of the system. 479 00:22:59.900 --> 00:23:02.900 And that's why I think that the government has got to include, I think, this new more 480 00:23:02.900 --> 00:23:11.180 complicated ecology of state-of-the-art digital technologies that can defend platforms 481 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:15.280 and public views about what is the public good. 482 00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:19.520 And a lot of this will happen outside the party and parliamentary system. 483 00:23:19.620 --> 00:23:21.220 I've no doubt that that's going on. 484 00:23:21.500 --> 00:23:23.660 All of these platforms are underfunded. 485 00:23:23.900 --> 00:23:27.380 They're all struggling, as Peter Frey said yesterday, for new business models. 486 00:23:27.380 --> 00:23:35.900 I don't agree with him that the ABC should be made to start thinking about paying for 487 00:23:35.900 --> 00:23:36.380 the ABC. 488 00:23:36.680 --> 00:23:40.300 I think that's giving the keys away to the jailers. 489 00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:43.220 Well, anyway, that's my rant about it. 490 00:23:44.180 --> 00:23:45.580 Can I just jump in one minute? 491 00:23:45.660 --> 00:23:47.120 Just quickly from you, then, for everyone. 492 00:23:47.380 --> 00:23:53.480 So, look, I should try and just clarify something that John said about my view of representative 493 00:23:53.480 --> 00:23:55.000 democracy or elections. 494 00:23:55.100 --> 00:23:56.800 I'm for them, just by the way. 495 00:23:57.740 --> 00:24:07.900 And so what I'm suggesting is that just as the 18th and 19th century were about building 496 00:24:07.900 --> 00:24:14.300 constitutions with checks and balances between elections by the people and elections by the 497 00:24:14.300 --> 00:24:20.160 property classes, which is what the Legislative Council was here until quite recently, that 498 00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:25.800 the 21st century should be about setting up checks and balances between the people's representative 499 00:24:26.110 --> 00:24:33.770 chosen by election and the people's representative chosen by lot, as we do in juries. 500 00:24:34.110 --> 00:24:37.230 So, in my model, we have an upper house. 501 00:24:37.550 --> 00:24:39.530 I don't mind if we have three houses. 502 00:24:39.630 --> 00:24:42.710 I don't have anything against the upper houses we have now. 503 00:24:42.830 --> 00:24:46.230 Certainly the Senate, as far as I'm concerned, does more good than harm. 504 00:24:46.990 --> 00:24:54.490 But I would like to see a citizens' chamber with as many Australians chosen by lot in that chamber. 505 00:24:54.490 --> 00:24:57.350 And here's a power I would give it. 506 00:24:57.570 --> 00:25:06.490 If there was a super majority of that chamber, about 60% or more, to make it clear that it wasn't just the random selection that produced the majority, 507 00:25:06.850 --> 00:25:19.630 then it could impose a secret ballot on another house with which it disagreed, and we would not have abolished carbon pricing if it had had that power. 508 00:25:20.030 --> 00:25:23.190 So that's the sort of thing that I'm talking about. 509 00:25:23.250 --> 00:25:24.470 I'm talking about a system. 510 00:25:24.470 --> 00:25:27.930 I'm talking about a system that has revved up democracy and how damaging it is. 511 00:25:28.070 --> 00:25:35.150 I'm talking about the difference between the will of the people, which we hear a lot about, and the considered will of the people. 512 00:25:35.290 --> 00:25:46.330 If you hold a citizens' jury in the United Kingdom, the people going in will vote about 50-50 for Brexit, 513 00:25:46.530 --> 00:25:51.010 and the people coming out will vote about 60-40 against Brexit. 514 00:25:51.370 --> 00:25:54.450 I'm going with the considered will of the people. 515 00:25:54.470 --> 00:26:03.610 And I think that's the last best hope for democracy when we look around at the way, at how sick our democracy is. 516 00:26:04.470 --> 00:26:09.650 And John calls for a richer ecology. 517 00:26:10.010 --> 00:26:23.550 That's one of the things that makes the Swiss democracy so strong, because it has a very strong informational ecology behind things like citizens initiated referendums and so on. 518 00:26:23.550 --> 00:26:34.850 The way I see electoral democracy, the endless hoopla, the endless razzmatazz, the endless arousal of our resentments, 519 00:26:34.950 --> 00:26:42.990 is that it's actually harming, it's actively harming the richness of our ecology. 520 00:26:43.170 --> 00:26:48.470 And if you think about media 30 years ago and now, you get some idea of that. 521 00:26:48.570 --> 00:26:53.530 On technology, the great risk with technology, and I'm talking about the great risk with technology, 522 00:26:53.530 --> 00:26:59.850 and I've seen this happen again and again, is that people love, or they, until about five years ago, 523 00:26:59.910 --> 00:27:05.230 almost everybody loved what Silicon Valley had done to so many areas, and I do too. 524 00:27:05.370 --> 00:27:11.690 I mean, there's all sorts of toxic things going on, but I love Twitter, I love Facebook, I love the connectedness of it. 525 00:27:11.830 --> 00:27:20.470 And what they did was they used these new platforms to lower transactions costs, to make everything travel lightning fast. 526 00:27:20.830 --> 00:27:23.090 What if that's actually more than what we're doing? 527 00:27:23.090 --> 00:27:24.810 Not a good thing for democracy. 528 00:27:25.150 --> 00:27:34.790 What if democracy relies upon bringing the considered will out of the will, the clickbait, and so on? 529 00:27:34.930 --> 00:27:41.810 So the one piece of technology which, when I pricked up my ears about the internet, 530 00:27:41.950 --> 00:27:46.070 was a discussion website called Your View. 531 00:27:46.170 --> 00:27:47.110 It's now in mothballs. 532 00:27:48.110 --> 00:27:51.450 But this was an exciting thing, and what was it? 533 00:27:51.550 --> 00:27:53.070 Well, what happened? 534 00:27:53.070 --> 00:27:58.590 What happened on Your View was that you would debate various live political issues, as we are now, 535 00:27:59.650 --> 00:28:02.490 and people would vote, and they'd vote people up and down. 536 00:28:02.750 --> 00:28:10.390 But in the background were algorithms trying to work out whose voice mattered to other people, 537 00:28:11.070 --> 00:28:17.970 and it used various methods to do that, and of course they would be transparent to anyone who wants to interrogate that. 538 00:28:18.130 --> 00:28:23.050 But let me tell you one of the rules to give you an idea of what was going on. 539 00:28:23.070 --> 00:28:24.390 Can you do it really quickly? 540 00:28:24.530 --> 00:28:25.650 That's what I was about to do. 541 00:28:25.790 --> 00:28:25.850 That's what we should be moving along. 542 00:28:25.930 --> 00:28:27.170 That was what I was about to do. 543 00:28:28.030 --> 00:28:38.070 The person gets voted up with a high credibility score if what they say is rated well by people they disagree with. 544 00:28:38.490 --> 00:28:40.890 Okay, now that's what our democracy needs. 545 00:28:40.930 --> 00:28:41.850 It needs that. 546 00:28:42.070 --> 00:28:43.910 And that's what I'm focused on. 547 00:28:44.110 --> 00:28:46.510 Okay, now we do have another question from the floor. 548 00:28:46.610 --> 00:28:47.190 And that was Kelly Cushing. 549 00:28:47.190 --> 00:28:50.630 And before we come to you, sir, there is something I want to say. 550 00:28:50.710 --> 00:28:53.050 And I think you've all missed the main point. 551 00:28:53.050 --> 00:28:55.210 And that is that we have some very important problems with our democracy. 552 00:28:56.410 --> 00:29:05.230 Our main problems is that not only for our democracy, but certainly in the United States and several other countries, 553 00:29:06.050 --> 00:29:17.370 is that it has been reduced to a popularity contest, and the people who are standing for office do not have to have any demonstrable qualifications 554 00:29:18.050 --> 00:29:20.070 or ability to actually run the country. 555 00:29:20.250 --> 00:29:22.890 They just have to be more popular than the other candidates. 556 00:29:23.050 --> 00:29:40.170 And an added problem in Australia is we have compulsory voting, and much of the populace are probably ineligible to vote from the point of view of an understanding of what is required for the governments of the nation. 557 00:29:40.450 --> 00:29:41.670 Not like us, of course. 558 00:29:42.070 --> 00:29:45.910 Well, no, I'm not reducing it to an us and them situation. 559 00:29:46.390 --> 00:29:46.650 No, no, no. 560 00:29:46.690 --> 00:29:53.030 But I can remember going to the polling booths the first time that people were there. 561 00:29:53.030 --> 00:29:54.530 Peter Garrett stood for the Senate. 562 00:29:55.050 --> 00:30:01.250 And I had people my age coming to me wanting to know where midnight oil was on the voting ballot. 563 00:30:01.690 --> 00:30:16.090 Now, if people don't have a basic working knowledge of what is going on in politics, then surely, why should we compel them to vote? 564 00:30:17.370 --> 00:30:21.970 I would like to make a direct retort to that. 565 00:30:21.970 --> 00:30:25.890 And also to the argument that you made around the considered will of the people. 566 00:30:26.670 --> 00:30:35.170 I think that, first of all, Australia's compulsory voting system is actually an extraordinary thing for our democracy. 567 00:30:35.390 --> 00:30:39.830 Because you look around the world and you see societies where voting is not compulsory. 568 00:30:39.930 --> 00:30:42.570 And you know who doesn't vote? Marginalised people. 569 00:30:42.870 --> 00:30:46.710 Women don't vote. Low-income people don't vote. People of colour don't vote. 570 00:30:46.810 --> 00:30:50.290 People who live far away from urban centres are the ones who don't vote. 571 00:30:50.490 --> 00:30:51.950 So we're extremely lucky. 572 00:30:51.950 --> 00:30:55.030 We're extremely lucky in Australia that we are actually forced to go to the polls. 573 00:30:55.210 --> 00:30:58.530 Even though it might be annoying, it's a really, really, really good thing. 574 00:31:03.750 --> 00:31:10.510 And I also wanted to say that I find the argument that some people are ineligible to vote 575 00:31:10.510 --> 00:31:14.650 and the argument that there needs to be this considered will of the people, 576 00:31:15.330 --> 00:31:19.130 I think that it puts the onus onto everyday people. 577 00:31:19.130 --> 00:31:22.130 And it makes the problems with our democracy their fault. 578 00:31:22.330 --> 00:31:26.450 And I think that that is both misleading and fundamentally unfair. 579 00:31:26.870 --> 00:31:29.310 Because if you want to see where the real problem in our democracy is, 580 00:31:29.490 --> 00:31:35.230 it is the big money that is affecting political decisions that are coming out of Canberra. 581 00:31:35.630 --> 00:31:47.210 The real problem in our democracy is the money and the career politicians who have made their career off that money. 582 00:31:47.210 --> 00:31:51.770 And to imply that it is people, people, a lot of whom wouldn't have had an education, 583 00:31:52.150 --> 00:31:54.730 a lot of whom don't have the same privileges that we have, 584 00:31:54.870 --> 00:32:02.050 to imply that they in any way have a lesser right to vote is, to me, fundamentally anti-democratic. 585 00:32:02.270 --> 00:32:04.290 And I think the other thing that is... 586 00:32:04.290 --> 00:32:09.150 Yeah, well, leave me out of that because I've talked about the considered will of the people, not qualified people. 587 00:32:09.450 --> 00:32:12.350 So that's got nothing to... I agree with what you're saying. 588 00:32:12.550 --> 00:32:14.230 Maybe instead of qualified competent people. 589 00:32:14.350 --> 00:32:15.450 No, no, no, no. 590 00:32:15.450 --> 00:32:16.450 No, but you can't tell me that. 591 00:32:16.450 --> 00:32:19.470 You can't tell anyone whether they're competent to vote or not. 592 00:32:19.510 --> 00:32:21.190 Everyone has the right to vote. 593 00:32:21.370 --> 00:32:23.850 And it doesn't matter what your level of political literacy is. 594 00:32:23.890 --> 00:32:25.370 It doesn't matter if you don't understand policy. 595 00:32:25.870 --> 00:32:30.370 Everyone should be able to tell the basic difference between a policy that is good and a policy that is bad. 596 00:32:30.510 --> 00:32:32.530 Because it's not about any kind of wonky details. 597 00:32:32.850 --> 00:32:35.030 It's about the impact that it has on people's lives. 598 00:32:35.130 --> 00:32:36.070 It's about right and wrong. 599 00:32:36.210 --> 00:32:37.790 It's a really fundamental moral question. 600 00:32:38.010 --> 00:32:41.310 And it's up to us as political communicators to be able to convey that. 601 00:32:41.670 --> 00:32:43.490 Well, let's move the conversation... 602 00:32:44.990 --> 00:32:46.430 Let's move the conversation around. 603 00:32:46.450 --> 00:32:50.330 We've come along to the consequences of the failings of our democracy at the moment. 604 00:32:51.510 --> 00:32:55.510 And there was a really interesting paper that came out in Nature last week 605 00:32:55.510 --> 00:33:07.950 where they reviewed 16 emergency environmental programs that were affected across China. 606 00:33:08.130 --> 00:33:14.290 I mean, we're talking $375... $8.5 billion was put into this. 607 00:33:14.690 --> 00:33:16.430 It covered an area of China. 608 00:33:16.450 --> 00:33:19.830 It covered an area of 624 million hectares. 609 00:33:19.930 --> 00:33:22.450 There were half a billion people involved. 610 00:33:23.450 --> 00:33:32.050 And basically, they were addressing fundamental environmental problems that were destroying the country. 611 00:33:32.790 --> 00:33:36.690 The point was made here that you could only do that in China 612 00:33:37.450 --> 00:33:42.590 because if you have a look at the article that came out in The Conversation 613 00:33:42.590 --> 00:33:46.430 about Australia's worst... ranked worst in the world on climate change, 614 00:33:46.450 --> 00:33:47.230 on climate action, 615 00:33:47.570 --> 00:33:51.430 a lot of that comes down to the political system 616 00:33:51.430 --> 00:33:57.010 has got in the way of us being able to make decisive headway on that issue. 617 00:33:57.250 --> 00:34:02.230 If you look at the way that the Murray-Darling Basin has been squabbed 618 00:34:02.230 --> 00:34:08.490 because of the conflict of the democracies within the states and across the nation. 619 00:34:08.730 --> 00:34:13.170 If you look at the fact that we are still not addressing land clearing... 620 00:34:14.390 --> 00:34:15.690 So in the last... 621 00:34:15.690 --> 00:34:19.650 Don't these ultimately come down to a failure of the political system 622 00:34:19.650 --> 00:34:22.790 of being able to act in the best interest of the nation? 623 00:34:23.050 --> 00:34:25.010 Well, we voted in the last election 624 00:34:25.010 --> 00:34:29.650 and the people voted for a government that had torn up carbon pricing. 625 00:34:29.810 --> 00:34:31.170 So we're responsible. 626 00:34:32.050 --> 00:34:34.950 We can blame them. That's good. I don't like them either. 627 00:34:35.110 --> 00:34:36.330 But we're responsible. 628 00:34:36.790 --> 00:34:40.430 So why are we reaching out for baddies? 629 00:34:40.790 --> 00:34:42.170 We voted for that. 630 00:34:42.630 --> 00:34:44.830 We voted for it in 2013. 631 00:34:44.830 --> 00:34:46.970 They promised to abolish carbon pricing. 632 00:34:47.030 --> 00:34:49.010 We voted again in 2016 633 00:34:49.010 --> 00:34:52.810 and they squeaked over the line with the majority of the two-party preferred vote. 634 00:34:53.270 --> 00:34:54.250 So there you are. 635 00:34:54.410 --> 00:34:58.330 I think that if ordinary people... 636 00:34:58.330 --> 00:35:00.290 In fact, I can tell you that in Texas, 637 00:35:00.330 --> 00:35:03.410 in a citizens' jury, 638 00:35:03.650 --> 00:35:05.050 they asked people, 639 00:35:05.150 --> 00:35:10.170 would you be prepared to pay a little bit more on your electricity bill 640 00:35:10.830 --> 00:35:14.610 to fund more renewable energy and lower emissions? 641 00:35:14.830 --> 00:35:16.850 Going into the citizens' jury, 642 00:35:17.190 --> 00:35:19.710 54% of people said yes. 643 00:35:19.810 --> 00:35:21.070 Coming out of it, 644 00:35:21.130 --> 00:35:23.690 84% of people said yes, 645 00:35:23.690 --> 00:35:25.130 so long as it's not very much. 646 00:35:25.390 --> 00:35:27.670 Well, that's honest and that's enough. 647 00:35:27.850 --> 00:35:29.570 It doesn't have to be very much. 648 00:35:29.790 --> 00:35:35.750 So what we've got is a democracy that's completely paralysed 649 00:35:35.750 --> 00:35:39.850 by the ability to get that link bait going, 650 00:35:39.990 --> 00:35:41.470 get people revved up, 651 00:35:41.590 --> 00:35:44.710 get people thinking that other people are picking on them, 652 00:35:44.830 --> 00:35:47.170 that they're the good guys 653 00:35:47.830 --> 00:35:49.970 and it's called divide and conquer. 654 00:35:50.170 --> 00:35:52.030 And it's a disaster. 655 00:35:52.470 --> 00:35:53.490 Isn't it great? 656 00:35:53.570 --> 00:35:54.850 May I say that... 657 00:35:54.850 --> 00:35:59.110 Just let John's comment and then we'll come to you. 658 00:35:59.170 --> 00:36:02.870 Paul has a certain fascination with the China model 659 00:36:03.830 --> 00:36:07.230 because that's the Chinese argument against representative democracy 660 00:36:07.830 --> 00:36:10.310 and Nicholas, you know, the Greek, 661 00:36:10.530 --> 00:36:14.270 wants a return to deliberative assemblies. 662 00:36:14.270 --> 00:36:15.290 Where's my target? 663 00:36:15.350 --> 00:36:22.670 I think that if this bit of the conversation depresses you 664 00:36:22.670 --> 00:36:25.110 about democracy's slowness, 665 00:36:25.290 --> 00:36:31.030 the foolishness of majorities and governments in action, 666 00:36:31.250 --> 00:36:33.290 you should read David Runciman's book. 667 00:36:33.450 --> 00:36:36.390 I know no other work like it. 668 00:36:36.430 --> 00:36:42.750 It's a short history of crises and the way democracies handle them. 669 00:36:42.870 --> 00:36:44.250 And the good news is, 670 00:36:44.270 --> 00:36:47.930 the pattern is typical in the 20th century. 671 00:36:48.090 --> 00:36:49.570 I think it continues to be the same. 672 00:36:49.750 --> 00:36:52.290 A lot of slow footed, you know, 673 00:36:52.290 --> 00:36:55.810 foot dragging and slow motion and so on. 674 00:36:55.890 --> 00:36:57.890 But when push comes to shove, 675 00:36:58.130 --> 00:37:01.830 democracies are incredibly good at solving problems 676 00:37:01.830 --> 00:37:05.570 and they're one advantage over technocratic solutions, 677 00:37:06.070 --> 00:37:11.770 Chinese Communist Party instructions to shut down heavy industry 678 00:37:11.770 --> 00:37:14.250 and so on and accelerate the development 679 00:37:14.270 --> 00:37:15.950 of the shift to post-carbon. 680 00:37:16.150 --> 00:37:21.010 The one great advantage of democracy is that multiple opinions fed in 681 00:37:21.010 --> 00:37:23.790 and when the decision is taken and it sticks, 682 00:37:24.090 --> 00:37:25.430 it has great legitimacy. 683 00:37:26.150 --> 00:37:29.150 One symbol of this, a metaphor if you like, 684 00:37:29.350 --> 00:37:35.690 of how democracies have to handle the greening of politics problem 685 00:37:36.270 --> 00:37:39.950 and outflank, outwit the China model 686 00:37:39.950 --> 00:37:43.270 is the decision that Governor Jerry Brown took 687 00:37:43.270 --> 00:37:47.110 when Trump said piss off to Paris. 688 00:37:47.450 --> 00:37:50.950 A few days later, you may know that Governor Jerry Brown 689 00:37:50.950 --> 00:37:55.990 got on a plane to Beijing and he went and did a multi-billion US dollar deal 690 00:37:55.990 --> 00:38:00.230 with Xi Jinping about the greening of the California and Chinese economies. 691 00:38:00.450 --> 00:38:04.690 That's how democracies need to behave and they can do this. 692 00:38:04.850 --> 00:38:07.450 It's just that at the moment, we're in a rotten period 693 00:38:08.190 --> 00:38:11.790 where, you know, the denialists are still in the saddle. 694 00:38:12.570 --> 00:38:14.410 There's no great initiatives. 695 00:38:14.950 --> 00:38:20.350 Adani is a sort of, you know, I mean, it's a shameful symbol of our moment 696 00:38:20.350 --> 00:38:24.250 because elsewhere things are happening and especially at the city level. 697 00:38:24.410 --> 00:38:28.110 And if you don't think democracies are capable of acting under pressure, 698 00:38:28.190 --> 00:38:31.650 have a look at cities because cities, democratic cities, 699 00:38:31.850 --> 00:38:35.390 Copenhagen and so on, are beginning to be the new laboratories 700 00:38:35.390 --> 00:38:40.470 of the revival of democracy and the greening of daily life, I think. 701 00:38:41.790 --> 00:38:43.110 Sir, you've been very patient. 702 00:38:43.290 --> 00:38:47.550 I'm just wondering why we need a third House of Parliament. 703 00:38:47.710 --> 00:38:50.750 Why don't we just select the current House of Parliament by lot? 704 00:38:50.930 --> 00:38:52.510 It has several advantages. 705 00:38:52.730 --> 00:38:55.870 You can imagine half of the politicians would then be women 706 00:38:55.870 --> 00:38:56.970 and you'd have less lawyers there. 707 00:38:59.830 --> 00:39:02.810 Is that by lot entirely random? 708 00:39:03.050 --> 00:39:03.570 Yeah. 709 00:39:05.010 --> 00:39:06.510 OK, over to you guys. 710 00:39:08.310 --> 00:39:09.410 Yeah, well, I... 711 00:39:10.630 --> 00:39:15.030 We don't know what would happen, so I'm a conservative in that sense. 712 00:39:15.170 --> 00:39:20.890 I want to move boldly but hanging on to what we've got. 713 00:39:22.290 --> 00:39:26.150 You know, 250 years ago, we were all at subsistence. 714 00:39:26.150 --> 00:39:30.070 We weren't at the University of South Australia at the Festival of Ideas. 715 00:39:30.570 --> 00:39:31.130 So... 716 00:39:31.910 --> 00:39:33.550 But it may... 717 00:39:33.550 --> 00:39:37.790 Well, once people see the People's Chamber in action, 718 00:39:38.050 --> 00:39:39.390 once people have been... 719 00:39:39.410 --> 00:39:41.250 Once people have been in a citizens' jury, 720 00:39:41.530 --> 00:39:46.670 I can tell you that about 90% of people coming out of citizens' juries 721 00:39:47.410 --> 00:39:50.770 are happy with the experience 722 00:39:50.770 --> 00:39:53.170 or extremely happy with the experience 723 00:39:53.170 --> 00:39:55.810 or life-changingly happy with the experience, 724 00:39:56.010 --> 00:39:58.050 roughly a third, a third, a third. 725 00:39:58.350 --> 00:40:03.830 People realise that ordinary people rise to the occasion, 726 00:40:04.050 --> 00:40:06.470 that people who don't know what they're talking about, 727 00:40:06.470 --> 00:40:10.050 most of them listen to other people who do know what they're talking about, 728 00:40:10.190 --> 00:40:13.150 and when people who don't know what they're talking about talk about it anyway, 729 00:40:13.330 --> 00:40:16.370 other people quietly hush them up and so on. 730 00:40:17.630 --> 00:40:19.250 So that's a mechanism. 731 00:40:19.490 --> 00:40:22.530 But the idea that we should talk about, 732 00:40:22.570 --> 00:40:24.890 wouldn't it be terrible if we had a political system 733 00:40:24.890 --> 00:40:27.830 in which people who don't know what they're talking about talk about it? 734 00:40:28.150 --> 00:40:29.030 Well, I'm... 735 00:40:29.650 --> 00:40:32.710 I'm thinking I'm quite familiar with that situation. 736 00:40:33.950 --> 00:40:34.450 LAUGHTER 737 00:40:34.450 --> 00:40:36.450 As John spoke, I think... 738 00:40:36.450 --> 00:40:39.950 Stuart Mill, one of the shareholders in South Australia, 739 00:40:40.170 --> 00:40:42.230 said in the middle of the 19th century, 740 00:40:42.350 --> 00:40:44.250 that's exactly Mill's argument, 741 00:40:44.370 --> 00:40:47.370 that local government, small-scale assemblies 742 00:40:47.370 --> 00:40:49.330 are where people learn public affairs. 743 00:40:49.550 --> 00:40:53.010 I was going to say that, you know, to be... 744 00:40:53.010 --> 00:40:56.150 I think it's got a snowball's chance in hell 745 00:40:56.150 --> 00:40:57.470 of getting off the ground, 746 00:40:58.470 --> 00:41:01.190 unless there's some sort of uprising in its favour. 747 00:41:01.310 --> 00:41:06.170 But I do think that the scalability problem 748 00:41:06.170 --> 00:41:09.330 with Nicholas's vision of democracy as assembly democracy 749 00:41:09.330 --> 00:41:10.850 is a serious issue. 750 00:41:11.070 --> 00:41:13.370 And I do think in the last 12 months, 751 00:41:13.550 --> 00:41:17.190 we've had an option put on the table. 752 00:41:17.370 --> 00:41:18.930 It's the Uluru Statement. 753 00:41:19.070 --> 00:41:20.410 It was snubbed. 754 00:41:20.790 --> 00:41:21.930 It's not dead. 755 00:41:22.150 --> 00:41:24.070 It must not be allowed to die 756 00:41:24.070 --> 00:41:27.990 because the proposal was that we indigenous peoples 757 00:41:27.990 --> 00:41:31.110 have no mechanisms of representation in national affairs. 758 00:41:31.310 --> 00:41:32.890 What kind of a democracy is this? 759 00:41:33.150 --> 00:41:35.490 And therefore, building... 760 00:41:35.490 --> 00:41:36.150 APPLAUSE 761 00:41:36.170 --> 00:41:38.570 ..an agreement, which they work very hard at, 762 00:41:38.630 --> 00:41:40.370 and institutionalising it. 763 00:41:40.410 --> 00:41:42.970 It's a very clever compromise document. 764 00:41:43.350 --> 00:41:48.610 But the basic proposal is to have a new mechanism 765 00:41:48.610 --> 00:41:52.690 of representation of indigenous peoples' interests and concerns. 766 00:41:53.090 --> 00:41:57.610 And that this, you know, this would feed into the federal parliament. 767 00:41:57.810 --> 00:41:59.910 I think that's unfinished business, 768 00:42:00.110 --> 00:42:01.730 and I hope it doesn't go away. 769 00:42:02.230 --> 00:42:05.130 This...we are in a marooned period. 770 00:42:05.430 --> 00:42:05.790 OK. 771 00:42:06.170 --> 00:42:08.150 But nothing has happened since the apology. 772 00:42:08.430 --> 00:42:09.850 We do have another question to go to. 773 00:42:09.990 --> 00:42:11.290 And just before we get there, 774 00:42:12.170 --> 00:42:16.710 isn't a symbol of the fact that we are broken as a... 775 00:42:17.510 --> 00:42:18.650 ..as a democracy 776 00:42:19.170 --> 00:42:22.570 the fact that both major political parties 777 00:42:23.170 --> 00:42:27.450 are supporting Australian offshore concentration camps 778 00:42:27.450 --> 00:42:29.170 in defiance of international law? 779 00:42:29.470 --> 00:42:31.770 No? No argument? OK. Fine. 780 00:42:32.290 --> 00:42:35.070 The point was made earlier that there's inaction, 781 00:42:35.070 --> 00:42:37.410 and I think the response from Nick to that was, 782 00:42:37.530 --> 00:42:40.930 well, we...there's a mandate for the decisions that are made 783 00:42:40.930 --> 00:42:43.870 because we vote for the individuals on the platform 784 00:42:43.870 --> 00:42:45.710 which they go to the polls on. 785 00:42:46.190 --> 00:42:48.870 Isn't the real problem, though, that we don't vote for policies, 786 00:42:48.950 --> 00:42:51.550 we vote for parties, and parties have multiple policies, 787 00:42:51.690 --> 00:42:54.670 and it's impossible to vote on each individual policy 788 00:42:54.670 --> 00:42:55.550 that they stand for, 789 00:42:55.610 --> 00:42:57.950 so we're forced with this terrible decision 790 00:42:57.950 --> 00:43:01.070 of having to pick the party that has the most policies 791 00:43:01.070 --> 00:43:02.890 that you're happy with, perhaps compared to the party 792 00:43:02.890 --> 00:43:04.850 that has less of the policies that you're happy with? 793 00:43:05.070 --> 00:43:05.570 Yeah. 794 00:43:05.670 --> 00:43:09.790 And I may say that if we didn't have compulsory voting, 795 00:43:10.010 --> 00:43:12.490 I have no doubt that what's happening 796 00:43:12.490 --> 00:43:15.010 in practically every actually existing democracy, 797 00:43:15.230 --> 00:43:20.050 the cartel party system, as the political scientists call it, 798 00:43:20.110 --> 00:43:22.010 you know, an oligopoly, would collapse. 799 00:43:22.150 --> 00:43:23.670 It would collapse in this country. 800 00:43:24.610 --> 00:43:27.070 There are extreme cases now where democracies... 801 00:43:27.650 --> 00:43:29.110 Italy is a case in point, 802 00:43:29.210 --> 00:43:31.650 Greece, Germany is feeling the pinch, 803 00:43:31.810 --> 00:43:34.750 the UK, the United States, you know, 804 00:43:34.750 --> 00:43:39.390 party systems are collapsing because for nearly two-thirds of a generation 805 00:43:39.390 --> 00:43:42.490 the trend you've just described took root 806 00:43:43.610 --> 00:43:48.130 with hardly any membership of political parties 807 00:43:50.690 --> 00:43:56.130 where, like, Coles and so on, you know, came to resemble each other, 808 00:43:56.250 --> 00:43:59.150 and one of the reasons why the disaffection 809 00:43:59.150 --> 00:44:03.370 and the disrespect for politics and politicians and parliaments 810 00:44:03.370 --> 00:44:05.830 is rising rapidly in this country and elsewhere 811 00:44:05.830 --> 00:44:07.150 is because of that system. 812 00:44:07.330 --> 00:44:08.110 It's renewal. 813 00:44:08.710 --> 00:44:09.770 Nicholas wants to... 814 00:44:10.370 --> 00:44:13.450 Well, says... would like to revive it, 815 00:44:13.530 --> 00:44:15.490 but I think he would like to turn you back on it. 816 00:44:15.710 --> 00:44:17.910 Rosie wants to hammer it from outside. 817 00:44:17.930 --> 00:44:19.010 I'm much closer to her. 818 00:44:19.010 --> 00:44:21.190 Why are you saying I want to turn my back on it? 819 00:44:21.450 --> 00:44:23.630 I just don't know what you're talking about. 820 00:44:23.690 --> 00:44:24.590 I want to preserve it. 821 00:44:24.770 --> 00:44:27.270 Yeah, because the way you speak about representative democracy is... 822 00:44:27.270 --> 00:44:27.930 Ruby, please! 823 00:44:28.270 --> 00:44:28.470 Yeah. 824 00:44:29.930 --> 00:44:30.690 Good point. 825 00:44:30.810 --> 00:44:31.170 Ruby. 826 00:44:35.170 --> 00:44:38.810 I mean, I think that the short answer to your question is yes, obviously, 827 00:44:39.050 --> 00:44:39.990 it's a huge problem, 828 00:44:40.150 --> 00:44:44.170 but I think even more significant than the fact 829 00:44:44.170 --> 00:44:47.010 that you have to sign up to a party's entire agenda 830 00:44:47.010 --> 00:44:48.670 when you choose to vote for them 831 00:44:48.670 --> 00:44:51.930 is also the extreme lack of choice that we have 832 00:44:51.930 --> 00:44:53.290 in the Australian political system. 833 00:44:53.410 --> 00:44:56.390 We have two major parties who are both... 834 00:44:56.950 --> 00:44:59.330 No matter what side of the political spectrum you come from, 835 00:44:59.430 --> 00:45:00.770 they're extremely dissatisfactory, 836 00:45:00.910 --> 00:45:03.350 and then we have this whole host of minor parties, 837 00:45:03.350 --> 00:45:06.130 a lot of whom are, you know, really extreme in their views 838 00:45:06.130 --> 00:45:09.410 or are dysfunctional to the point where people don't necessarily feel 839 00:45:09.410 --> 00:45:11.730 that they would be confident having them in a position of power. 840 00:45:12.310 --> 00:45:14.950 And so I think this is the other issue that I take 841 00:45:14.950 --> 00:45:18.090 when people put the onus back onto voters and say, 842 00:45:18.170 --> 00:45:19.590 well, you voted for me and it's your fault, 843 00:45:19.650 --> 00:45:23.570 when you haven't been given options before you that you're happy with 844 00:45:23.570 --> 00:45:24.850 and when you haven't been presented... 845 00:45:24.850 --> 00:45:26.990 I don't know if I'm speaking for everyone else in the room, 846 00:45:27.050 --> 00:45:30.770 but, you know, I, on very, very few occasions in my life, 847 00:45:30.810 --> 00:45:32.970 have ever felt inspired by Australian politics. 848 00:45:32.970 --> 00:45:34.890 There have been very few moments where I've looked... 849 00:45:34.890 --> 00:45:34.910 What? 850 00:45:36.250 --> 00:45:37.070 Shocking, I know. 851 00:45:38.530 --> 00:45:42.370 But, yeah, I think that the answer is we definitely do need to think 852 00:45:42.370 --> 00:45:44.290 about ways around that kind of... 853 00:45:44.290 --> 00:45:46.670 the issue of signing up to a party's entire platform, 854 00:45:46.770 --> 00:45:48.550 but more importantly, we need some, like, 855 00:45:48.550 --> 00:45:50.150 real political leadership in this country, 856 00:45:50.270 --> 00:45:51.670 and we need to be able to tell the difference 857 00:45:51.670 --> 00:45:53.490 between the parties that we're voting for. 858 00:45:57.370 --> 00:45:59.850 OK, I'm afraid we're almost out of time. 859 00:45:59.950 --> 00:46:01.890 We have time for one last question. 860 00:46:02.030 --> 00:46:02.310 So... 861 00:46:02.970 --> 00:46:04.530 I think this discussion has been skirting around something 862 00:46:04.530 --> 00:46:06.190 that I want to make explicit with my question. 863 00:46:06.630 --> 00:46:09.430 Do you think there's a problem that, as a society, 864 00:46:09.530 --> 00:46:12.270 we view democracy as the be-all and end-all, 865 00:46:12.410 --> 00:46:14.710 that maybe instead, in 200 years' time, 866 00:46:14.830 --> 00:46:16.330 we should look back on democracy itself 867 00:46:16.330 --> 00:46:18.210 the same way we look back on feudalism, 868 00:46:18.330 --> 00:46:21.910 and that we should really be trying to design and aim for a system 869 00:46:21.910 --> 00:46:24.670 that is different from democracy, that's not what we know now, 870 00:46:25.270 --> 00:46:28.770 but which is designed so that it can't devolve into a popularity contest, 871 00:46:29.010 --> 00:46:31.310 so that it can't be taken over by commercial interests, 872 00:46:31.310 --> 00:46:34.910 if democracy is the worst system apart from all the others, 873 00:46:35.010 --> 00:46:36.790 maybe it's time to try something else. 874 00:46:37.730 --> 00:46:39.710 Perhaps what we say is... 875 00:46:39.710 --> 00:46:42.470 I'm throwing the idea out there for lots of people to think about. 876 00:46:42.970 --> 00:46:46.350 Perhaps I can rephrase that as, we've identified the problems, 877 00:46:46.530 --> 00:46:48.630 what are the solutions, what is the way forward? 878 00:46:49.630 --> 00:46:54.310 At the risk of being told I'm even more Greek... 879 00:46:55.810 --> 00:46:57.650 Because Gruen's Swedish, isn't it? 880 00:46:57.930 --> 00:47:00.470 Terribly, terribly. It's Austrian. 881 00:47:00.470 --> 00:47:09.570 At the risk of heading even further down this stigmatised spectrum of Greekness, 882 00:47:10.990 --> 00:47:14.550 the Athenians actually built... 883 00:47:14.550 --> 00:47:18.710 They're the only democracy that understood their democracy 884 00:47:19.470 --> 00:47:22.510 to be in a visceral struggle with oligarchy. 885 00:47:23.290 --> 00:47:28.710 That's why they peppered the entire system with selection by lot. 886 00:47:28.710 --> 00:47:32.830 If you go to the internet and type in the word, 887 00:47:32.930 --> 00:47:33.970 I think it starts with a K, 888 00:47:35.110 --> 00:47:37.390 Klerotirion, and John can correct me, 889 00:47:38.570 --> 00:47:42.210 they invented a machine that everybody could watch, 890 00:47:42.390 --> 00:47:44.950 a bit like our Tazlotto bubble machine, 891 00:47:45.210 --> 00:47:49.810 that everyone could watch and observe that this was random. 892 00:47:49.990 --> 00:47:54.470 In other words, nobody's stinking mitts got on it 893 00:47:54.470 --> 00:47:58.690 and distorted it by creating careers for people 894 00:47:58.710 --> 00:48:01.710 who followed the career incentives and so on. 895 00:48:01.810 --> 00:48:06.930 So that's why I think it's a missing ingredient of our democracy. 896 00:48:07.250 --> 00:48:12.230 It's not that I want to tear down what we have of elections and so on. 897 00:48:12.390 --> 00:48:14.110 But that... 898 00:48:14.110 --> 00:48:17.710 And when we do democracy that way, it becomes highly generative. 899 00:48:18.290 --> 00:48:21.710 The people who come out of citizen juries in Melbourne, 900 00:48:21.790 --> 00:48:27.930 of 42 people, two or three stood for local council at the next opportunity. 901 00:48:27.930 --> 00:48:31.470 So they discover that this is something that they want 902 00:48:31.470 --> 00:48:34.270 and they go out and they enrich that ecosystem. 903 00:48:34.790 --> 00:48:39.210 So I'm sort of at a loss to see how I'm... 904 00:48:39.210 --> 00:48:44.050 ..how this is somehow undermining the democracy we have. 905 00:48:44.150 --> 00:48:50.290 I see it as building real antibodies in the democracy we have 906 00:48:50.290 --> 00:48:53.110 against the sort of things that people have been talking about. 907 00:48:53.410 --> 00:48:53.930 Ruby. 908 00:48:54.190 --> 00:48:54.830 Yes. 909 00:48:58.590 --> 00:49:01.890 I mean, I think that I would say that I completely agree with you, 910 00:49:01.950 --> 00:49:03.670 but I would use different phrasing. 911 00:49:04.470 --> 00:49:07.010 As I was sort of trying to explain with the machine metaphor 912 00:49:07.010 --> 00:49:09.910 that I think applies to democracy earlier, 913 00:49:10.050 --> 00:49:13.610 I think that we need to constantly be looking at ways to improve our democracy. 914 00:49:13.930 --> 00:49:17.150 And not just improve it, but also make sure that it keeps up with the times, 915 00:49:17.250 --> 00:49:19.290 that it keeps up with the pace of technological change, 916 00:49:19.450 --> 00:49:21.970 that it keeps up with the pace of international political changes. 917 00:49:22.330 --> 00:49:25.890 And so I think that I hope in 200 years we look back on the system we have now 918 00:49:25.890 --> 00:49:27.370 and think that it's incredibly outdated 919 00:49:27.370 --> 00:49:29.070 and we're doing so much better. 920 00:49:29.750 --> 00:49:31.910 To my mind, I would still use the phrase democracy. 921 00:49:32.370 --> 00:49:35.090 For me, it would just be a better and more effective democracy. 922 00:49:35.350 --> 00:49:36.990 But I think that we're probably in furious agreement 923 00:49:36.990 --> 00:49:38.530 just using different words for it. 924 00:49:38.790 --> 00:49:39.430 And John. 925 00:49:40.830 --> 00:49:41.650 Two things. 926 00:49:41.750 --> 00:49:44.210 I think the onus is on you. 927 00:49:44.530 --> 00:49:46.830 It's an important question. 928 00:49:47.270 --> 00:49:48.290 Nothing is forever. 929 00:49:49.070 --> 00:49:52.770 Democracy died, as I tried to show in my history of democracy, 930 00:49:53.570 --> 00:49:55.030 endless numbers of times. 931 00:49:55.510 --> 00:49:56.890 And it may not survive. 932 00:49:57.070 --> 00:49:57.350 There's probably... 933 00:49:59.490 --> 00:50:01.670 I'm speaking of real relaxing speaking of relaxing speaking of relaxing speaking of 934 00:50:01.670 --> 00:50:08.690 the 20s, 1920s and 30s and this period. The content's different, but what we're witnessing 935 00:50:08.690 --> 00:50:17.670 is the emergence of a clear alternative. And it is the Putin, Xi Jinping, it's the Iranian-Saudi 936 00:50:17.670 --> 00:50:26.370 alternative that call themselves people's democracies, less so in Saudi, but actually 937 00:50:26.370 --> 00:50:30.970 are very different. They're concentrated forms of arbitrary power. And they're a clear alternative 938 00:50:30.970 --> 00:50:38.430 economically, they do very well. And we are at a junction that we haven't seen, I think, 939 00:50:38.490 --> 00:50:44.690 for since the 1920s and 30s, where power sharing constitutional democracies are ailing. They're 940 00:50:44.690 --> 00:50:51.550 in a parlous state mostly. And they are now confronted by a clear alternative. So you 941 00:50:51.550 --> 00:50:56.750 can join that, you can join it, but pay attention to it. And the second thing I just wanted 942 00:50:56.750 --> 00:51:00.950 to say, I just wanted to read a few lines about democracy. 943 00:51:00.950 --> 00:51:01.270 I think it's a very important thing to say, and I think it's a very important thing to 944 00:51:01.270 --> 00:51:02.970 say, is that the United States has a very strong commitment to democracy and its commitment 945 00:51:02.970 --> 00:51:07.910 to the principle of equality. I don't know if you know, but E.B. White, who was a very 946 00:51:07.910 --> 00:51:17.450 famous children's writer in the United States, out of the blue in the July 1943 got a letter 947 00:51:17.450 --> 00:51:23.610 from the War Board of the United States asking him to define democracy. And this is what 948 00:51:23.610 --> 00:51:30.070 he wrote. He said, democracy, it is the line that forms on the right, it's the don't in 949 00:51:30.950 --> 00:51:36.630 the shelf, it's the dent in the high hat. Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that 950 00:51:36.630 --> 00:51:40.990 more than half of the people are right more than half of the time. It's the feeling of 951 00:51:40.990 --> 00:51:45.910 privacy in the voting booths, the feeling of communion in the libraries, the feeling 952 00:51:45.910 --> 00:51:52.050 of vitality everywhere. Democracy is a letter to the editor. Democracy is the score at the 953 00:51:52.050 --> 00:51:58.130 beginning of the ninth. It's an idea which hasn't been disproved yet. A song of the words 954 00:51:58.130 --> 00:52:00.070 of which have not gone bad. 955 00:52:00.070 --> 00:52:06.370 It's the mustard on the hot dog and the cream in the rationed coffee. Democracy, he concluded, 956 00:52:06.610 --> 00:52:11.670 is a request from a war board in the middle of a morning, in the middle of a war, wanting 957 00:52:11.670 --> 00:52:13.350 to know what democracy is. 958 00:52:19.830 --> 00:52:25.850 Ladies and gentlemen, what an invigorating and fascinating discussion to end the Adelaide 959 00:52:25.850 --> 00:52:30.050 Festival of Ideas for 2018. Would you please thank the 960 00:52:30.050 --> 00:52:32.170 audience for joining us today. Nicholas, Ruby and John. 961 00:52:41.970 --> 00:52:45.510 Quickly before you all go as well, I just wanted to say if anyone here is interested 962 00:52:45.510 --> 00:52:50.150 in getting involved in any of GetUp's democracy campaigning, there is a table of volunteers 963 00:52:50.150 --> 00:52:53.550 waiting just outside. You can have a chat to them about getting involved and you can 964 00:52:53.550 --> 00:52:55.090 sign a couple of our petitions if you're interested. 965 00:52:56.570 --> 00:53:00.030 Look forward to seeing you in 2019, ladies and gentlemen. 966 00:53:00.050 --> 00:53:01.110 Go safely. 967 00:53:01.470 --> 00:53:02.410 Thank you.