WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.040 My name is Carmen Lawrence and with Fiona we're having a conversation in a public space which 2 00:00:06.040 --> 00:00:10.820 feels very weird actually but nonetheless we're going to try and make it happen in an interesting 3 00:00:10.820 --> 00:00:16.300 way. My name is Carmen Lawrence as I've already said. I'm currently in the School of Psychology 4 00:00:16.300 --> 00:00:20.720 at the University of Western Australia and I'm Director of the Centre for the Study of Social 5 00:00:20.720 --> 00:00:24.060 Change but I have a long history in politics which some of you may be familiar with 6 00:00:24.060 --> 00:00:31.860 and is somewhat relevant to today's discussion. Fiona. My name is Fiona Haynes. I'm Professor of 7 00:00:31.860 --> 00:00:35.980 Criminology at the University of Melbourne. I don't have a long history in politics. 8 00:00:36.480 --> 00:00:42.420 I do have a long history of making comment about the need for political leadership so 9 00:00:43.400 --> 00:00:49.440 my area of research is white collar crime. Essentially I'm trying to understand how do 10 00:00:49.440 --> 00:00:53.920 we get businesses to act in the public interest. So we're going to try and unpick 11 00:00:53.920 --> 00:00:54.020 the 12 00:00:54.060 --> 00:00:58.180 question that was posed to us today but inevitably we're going to wander far and wide we hope 13 00:00:58.900 --> 00:01:04.880 and to be directed to some extent by your interests as well. So public value, dollar 14 00:01:04.880 --> 00:01:11.300 value. Deep breath. Deep breath. Okay so I mean I think for me when I was thinking of 15 00:01:11.300 --> 00:01:19.520 this question the initial thing was to actually disparage dollar value and go to public value 16 00:01:19.520 --> 00:01:23.760 and to think of all the things that dollar values can't measure. 17 00:01:23.760 --> 00:01:28.800 They can't measure relationships. They can't measure well-being all that well. They're terrible 18 00:01:28.800 --> 00:01:35.760 at measuring environment and so on. But then reflecting back and having a conversation with 19 00:01:35.760 --> 00:01:45.020 Carmen. There's a number of things that dollar values can measure imperfectly and so in terms 20 00:01:45.020 --> 00:01:52.560 of inequality for example. It's actually quite a good measure of inequality. It has problems 21 00:01:52.560 --> 00:01:53.740 but inequality is a good measure of inequality. It has problems but inequality is a good measure of inequality. 22 00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:58.980 Income inequality, capital inequality and so on. Money can measure. 23 00:01:59.320 --> 00:02:04.020 Yes and it correlates pretty closely with other forms of inequality. So societies that 24 00:02:04.020 --> 00:02:08.300 are very unequal in terms of the incomes that people earn are also ones that don't spend 25 00:02:08.300 --> 00:02:13.380 much money on public goods. They tend to reduce investment in education, in environmental 26 00:02:13.380 --> 00:02:18.700 protection and so on. And when you get wide inequality and widening inequality as we are 27 00:02:18.700 --> 00:02:21.600 in Australia what you see is a catalogue of ills growing. 28 00:02:21.880 --> 00:02:22.200 Yeah. 29 00:02:22.200 --> 00:02:28.040 So even things like life expectancy, the quality of people's lives, drug abuse, a 30 00:02:28.680 --> 00:02:32.580 reduction in school attendance. All of these things tend to go with inequality in societies 31 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:37.740 and widening inequality. So in that sense a monetary value gives us in a sense a red 32 00:02:37.740 --> 00:02:42.480 flag about what's going on and what we might unpick in a wider society. 33 00:02:42.900 --> 00:02:48.120 I mean which is really interesting as a criminologist. I mean white collar criminals tend not to go 34 00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:51.960 to jail. A certain portion of them actually do. 35 00:02:51.960 --> 00:03:00.540 And somebody like Bernie Madoff gets 150 years which is a very intriguing outcome. But imprisonment 36 00:03:00.540 --> 00:03:06.700 rates are associated with inequality. And as a criminologist we constantly look at how 37 00:03:06.700 --> 00:03:11.400 to improve the criminal justice system without I think sometimes taking that broader view 38 00:03:11.400 --> 00:03:17.400 and saying okay actually it's something about the broader society that we need to hone in 39 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:17.440 on. 40 00:03:17.440 --> 00:03:21.760 To be changing. And as I say the dollar signs can give you a sense of that. But if you use 41 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:26.840 the dollar in that case to measure the efficacy of imprisonment versus for instance community 42 00:03:28.320 --> 00:03:32.320 diversion programs for instance you can get some very poor outcomes. 43 00:03:33.260 --> 00:03:34.300 Yes. Yes. 44 00:03:34.320 --> 00:03:35.060 Which you know better than I. 45 00:03:35.060 --> 00:03:41.620 Yes. Yes. Yes. I mean one of the things is with imprisonment. I mean and I'd be interested 46 00:03:41.620 --> 00:03:46.500 in your thoughts both because you've worked at the federal and the state level. When I 47 00:03:46.500 --> 00:03:51.940 first came to Australia and started looking at the area in the late 80s and early 90s 48 00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:58.180 law and order was very low down on the pecking order. You did not win elections by bringing 49 00:03:58.180 --> 00:04:05.240 out the law and order card. Look at now and it's now a very significant portion. And so 50 00:04:05.240 --> 00:04:08.840 what tends to happen with diversion is you get the same amount of imprisonment and you 51 00:04:08.840 --> 00:04:11.960 spend more money on diversion programs at the same time. 52 00:04:12.220 --> 00:04:16.520 Well it can happen yes. I mean we've had these law and order auctions on the basis that we 53 00:04:16.520 --> 00:04:20.500 need to be protected. And a lot of the security legislation that we're seeing at the moment 54 00:04:20.500 --> 00:04:21.940 is on the basis that we do it against прик 55 00:04:21.940 --> 00:04:28.840 We need protection from some real but probably low-risk interventions in Australian life. 56 00:04:29.100 --> 00:04:36.900 And the dollar value that's attached to those is often not registered compared with what other actions might be taken 57 00:04:36.900 --> 00:04:40.480 or, frankly, in some cases, doing nothing. 58 00:04:41.160 --> 00:04:41.760 Yes. 59 00:04:41.760 --> 00:04:46.600 We exaggerate the risk and then we're prepared to attach any dollar value to that. 60 00:04:46.800 --> 00:04:48.540 Yes, yes, yes, yes. 61 00:04:48.540 --> 00:04:53.380 I mean, that brings me, I suppose, to one of the things, and as I said, we're going to wander a bit here. 62 00:04:53.460 --> 00:04:55.580 It's going to be very much on where it takes us. 63 00:04:55.780 --> 00:05:01.460 But the whole question of cost-benefit analysis in public policy, and I suppose that's what we've been touching on, 64 00:05:01.580 --> 00:05:07.480 that typically we're asked to have a look at policy in terms of the costs of implementing that policy, 65 00:05:07.640 --> 00:05:11.280 whether it's in incarceration or in environmental protection, 66 00:05:11.940 --> 00:05:16.340 and to look on the other side of the ledger at the ostensible benefits of that policy. 67 00:05:16.580 --> 00:05:16.940 Yes. 68 00:05:17.180 --> 00:05:18.520 Now, in some cases, that agrees. 69 00:05:18.540 --> 00:05:20.680 That equation, I think, is reasonably easily made, 70 00:05:21.260 --> 00:05:25.020 particularly if the problem is one that needs to be solved today 71 00:05:25.020 --> 00:05:27.740 and there aren't any really long-term issues. 72 00:05:28.100 --> 00:05:32.380 But when you get into problems where we're talking about future generations 73 00:05:32.380 --> 00:05:37.200 and long-term consequences, climate change, environmental protection being good examples, 74 00:05:37.500 --> 00:05:40.320 then those cost-benefit analyses can look pretty weird. 75 00:05:40.600 --> 00:05:45.420 And you get some bizarre assessments of the value of the human life, for instance, 76 00:05:46.080 --> 00:05:48.500 or the costs of putting arsenic in the water. 77 00:05:48.540 --> 00:05:48.680 Or the loss of supply. 78 00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:50.720 Or the loss of biodiversity. 79 00:05:50.860 --> 00:05:53.700 Because these things aren't valued well with the dollar. 80 00:05:54.820 --> 00:06:03.120 I think the one that you've spoken about and the one that I think you've written about on a number of occasions, 81 00:06:03.560 --> 00:06:06.200 how do you value biodiversity? 82 00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:09.820 Not in terms of... 83 00:06:09.820 --> 00:06:16.220 What tends to happen is you value biodiversity because you might find a new medicine for humans. 84 00:06:16.900 --> 00:06:18.240 You value biodiversity. 85 00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:20.600 You value biodiversity because of some other effect. 86 00:06:20.920 --> 00:06:25.100 But valuing biodiversity for its own sake. 87 00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:30.140 So I was in a conference at the beginning of the year 88 00:06:30.140 --> 00:06:33.960 and we heard a chirp of a frog. 89 00:06:34.300 --> 00:06:38.160 And it was the last chirp of the last frog. 90 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:39.980 And the frog... 91 00:06:39.980 --> 00:06:40.980 And then it went silent. 92 00:06:41.560 --> 00:06:43.920 And the room was absolutely quiet. 93 00:06:44.260 --> 00:06:46.840 In that we knew that, 94 00:06:46.840 --> 00:06:48.320 to the best of our knowledge, 95 00:06:48.480 --> 00:06:51.240 that that sound would never be heard again. 96 00:06:52.420 --> 00:06:54.200 Nightingales in the United Kingdom. 97 00:06:54.280 --> 00:06:57.000 I was just on sabbatical in the United Kingdom. 98 00:06:57.080 --> 00:06:59.180 In many woods and locations. 99 00:07:00.540 --> 00:07:01.020 Gone. 100 00:07:01.200 --> 00:07:04.220 And you've spoken very eloquently about... 101 00:07:04.220 --> 00:07:05.560 These losses, yes. 102 00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:06.140 These losses. 103 00:07:06.460 --> 00:07:07.220 They're deeply felt. 104 00:07:07.280 --> 00:07:11.840 And as you say, often when you look at these assessments of the benefit of the environment, 105 00:07:12.040 --> 00:07:15.220 there's a tendency to look at so-called ecosystem services. 106 00:07:15.520 --> 00:07:16.360 You know, the fact that... 107 00:07:16.360 --> 00:07:18.700 You need clean water and air and so on. 108 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:19.780 And these are all real benefits. 109 00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:23.600 But they overlook that deep attachment we have to place, 110 00:07:23.740 --> 00:07:25.780 the deep attachment we have to the natural world, 111 00:07:25.960 --> 00:07:28.440 which is probably evolutionary in its origin. 112 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:31.180 And where the loss is catastrophic. 113 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:34.860 And we know when people's landscapes are destroyed, 114 00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:38.560 there is a lot of evidence now that there are psychological consequences 115 00:07:38.560 --> 00:07:39.740 and social consequences. 116 00:07:40.180 --> 00:07:42.720 And they may not easily be captured by a dollar 117 00:07:42.720 --> 00:07:45.520 or indeed by any deliberate attempt at measurement, 118 00:07:45.520 --> 00:07:47.560 apart from asking people how they feel, 119 00:07:47.740 --> 00:07:49.520 which is often denigrated, of course. 120 00:07:49.800 --> 00:07:52.360 But they are absolutely critical to our well-being. 121 00:07:52.920 --> 00:07:55.720 And I don't know if you've read Michael McCarthy's book, 122 00:07:55.920 --> 00:07:57.400 The Moth Snowstorm. 123 00:07:57.860 --> 00:07:58.340 No. 124 00:07:58.400 --> 00:07:59.860 It's written about the UK. 125 00:07:59.980 --> 00:08:05.420 But he charts the loss of biodiversity, including the nightingales. 126 00:08:05.620 --> 00:08:07.500 But the moth snowstorm... 127 00:08:07.500 --> 00:08:10.660 Some of you might remember too from your own childhood looking around. 128 00:08:10.760 --> 00:08:13.540 There are a few people who've been around on this planet for a bit, like me. 129 00:08:13.700 --> 00:08:13.920 . 130 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:17.500 When you go driving, perhaps in the city or the country, 131 00:08:17.620 --> 00:08:22.380 and your windscreen would fill up with flying insects of one kind or another. 132 00:08:22.960 --> 00:08:24.960 When was the last time you experienced that? 133 00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:28.860 That's the question McCarthy asks in the UK. 134 00:08:29.380 --> 00:08:31.420 And his book is about the loss, 135 00:08:31.540 --> 00:08:34.640 but it's also about the loss of the emotion that goes with that. 136 00:08:34.720 --> 00:08:37.820 The joy, the awe, the fascination. 137 00:08:38.100 --> 00:08:42.460 All these things that go when we destroy the environment 138 00:08:42.460 --> 00:08:43.500 or precious places. 139 00:08:43.820 --> 00:08:44.460 Yes. 140 00:08:45.420 --> 00:08:47.440 There are clearly some... 141 00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:49.900 It's where the public value, dollar value, 142 00:08:50.020 --> 00:08:52.320 has this kind of reciprocal relationship. 143 00:08:52.880 --> 00:08:56.100 So if you think of things like mine rehabilitation, 144 00:08:56.460 --> 00:08:57.460 to try to... 145 00:08:58.220 --> 00:08:59.180 I mean, mine rehabilitation, 146 00:08:59.260 --> 00:09:05.260 you can make some attempt at putting some kind of dollar value. 147 00:09:05.660 --> 00:09:08.780 And Australia has been woeful historically 148 00:09:09.460 --> 00:09:12.340 in actually taking that dollar value 149 00:09:12.460 --> 00:09:15.660 seriously enough to do the rehabilitation enough 150 00:09:16.460 --> 00:09:19.180 to bring back some of the biodiversities. 151 00:09:19.180 --> 00:09:20.180 Something that looks like it. 152 00:09:20.220 --> 00:09:21.540 Something that looks like it. 153 00:09:21.640 --> 00:09:23.540 Yes, the dollar value is often conveniently overlooked 154 00:09:23.540 --> 00:09:24.580 in those circumstances, 155 00:09:24.640 --> 00:09:26.640 and it becomes too difficult to do this. 156 00:09:26.740 --> 00:09:29.180 And so we have all these stranded mines around the country 157 00:09:29.180 --> 00:09:30.640 that will never be rehabilitated, 158 00:09:30.800 --> 00:09:34.060 because nobody has taken on responsibility for meeting those costs. 159 00:09:34.420 --> 00:09:36.400 And they're very real costs. 160 00:09:36.600 --> 00:09:38.460 I mean, the money... 161 00:09:38.460 --> 00:09:41.060 The dollar value has to come from somewhere. 162 00:09:41.060 --> 00:09:44.760 And so there's a funny thing about dollar value 163 00:09:44.760 --> 00:09:47.520 is actually when it's vitally important, 164 00:09:47.840 --> 00:09:49.140 it gets buried. 165 00:09:49.880 --> 00:09:52.240 And when it's not vitally important, 166 00:09:52.380 --> 00:09:55.080 it gets to the forefront of political debate. 167 00:09:55.480 --> 00:09:57.040 It's about the ease of measurement, 168 00:09:57.140 --> 00:09:59.740 which I know we're both familiar with in the university context. 169 00:09:59.960 --> 00:10:01.920 And those of you who are within universities 170 00:10:01.920 --> 00:10:04.760 will know the obsession with measuring things that don't matter. 171 00:10:05.160 --> 00:10:08.220 Because it's easy to do. 172 00:10:08.420 --> 00:10:09.980 And I think that often happens too 173 00:10:09.980 --> 00:10:12.060 when it comes to environmental and social impacts. 174 00:10:12.360 --> 00:10:13.880 I mean, most of the time, 175 00:10:13.880 --> 00:10:16.320 when we're doing these environmental assessments, 176 00:10:16.400 --> 00:10:20.740 for instance, of the potential impact of a mine or a housing development, 177 00:10:21.300 --> 00:10:23.400 we are looking, to some extent, 178 00:10:23.500 --> 00:10:25.380 at measurable impacts on biodiversity, 179 00:10:25.640 --> 00:10:27.300 although we do it fairly badly, 180 00:10:27.400 --> 00:10:29.920 and sometimes a dollar value is attached to them. 181 00:10:30.180 --> 00:10:32.360 But we rarely look at the social impact. 182 00:10:32.520 --> 00:10:35.360 It's surprising in the Australian legislative framework, 183 00:10:35.560 --> 00:10:36.880 and you might like to comment on this, 184 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:39.340 I know certainly in my own state of Western Australia, 185 00:10:39.340 --> 00:10:42.800 there is no serious attempt to measure social impact. 186 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:46.640 So if you drive a great big highway through the middle of the suburbs 187 00:10:46.640 --> 00:10:49.880 and you destroy biodiversity in the process and communities, 188 00:10:50.780 --> 00:10:54.800 that will only be assessed if it is at all in terms of dust or noise pollution, 189 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:59.140 but not in terms of the fact that people have lost a place that they love and value 190 00:10:59.140 --> 00:11:01.880 and that the amenity of their place has been destroyed. 191 00:11:02.100 --> 00:11:05.040 And we talked a bit about that in a previous conversation. 192 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:07.020 We've only really had a couple before today. 193 00:11:07.720 --> 00:11:09.320 The effect that fracking, for instance, 194 00:11:09.340 --> 00:11:14.380 and the despoilation of the environment has on people's hearts, ultimately. 195 00:11:15.340 --> 00:11:19.860 I mean, one of the projects I'm working on at the moment 196 00:11:19.860 --> 00:11:22.540 is looking at something called a social licence to operate. 197 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:24.520 The social licence, just out of interest, 198 00:11:24.620 --> 00:11:26.580 how many people here have heard of the social licence? 199 00:11:27.580 --> 00:11:28.720 Well-informed audience. 200 00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:32.040 OK. So essentially what it is, 201 00:11:32.060 --> 00:11:36.860 is, well, the way it comes up most often is actually as a protest. 202 00:11:37.300 --> 00:11:39.320 So that a resource centre, 203 00:11:39.340 --> 00:11:39.660 a services company, 204 00:11:39.900 --> 00:11:42.520 in my case I'm looking at coal, steam, gas and fracking, 205 00:11:42.680 --> 00:11:44.260 a company will come to town 206 00:11:46.220 --> 00:11:50.180 and as one of my interviewees spoke about, 207 00:11:50.280 --> 00:11:52.220 she said, well, the law's not going to help us. 208 00:11:52.520 --> 00:11:55.740 So we say you don't have a social licence. 209 00:11:56.060 --> 00:11:59.400 You don't have social permission to come here. 210 00:11:59.680 --> 00:12:01.280 You might have legal permission, 211 00:12:01.460 --> 00:12:03.940 but you don't have social permission to come here. 212 00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:08.020 And it's a way of trying to establish 213 00:12:09.340 --> 00:12:09.660 that there's a presence. 214 00:12:09.920 --> 00:12:13.440 And so it's a very fraught term 215 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:15.520 because it doesn't have a solid meaning. 216 00:12:15.660 --> 00:12:17.000 It doesn't have a legislative backing, 217 00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:19.520 although I understand in Western Australia it does, 218 00:12:19.780 --> 00:12:24.880 which is on my agenda for next week to look at. 219 00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:28.780 But because it has this kind of malleable meaning, 220 00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:32.860 it gets shifted around and used in different ways 221 00:12:32.860 --> 00:12:35.700 in very different levels. 222 00:12:35.880 --> 00:12:38.840 So, for example, in investment meetings 223 00:12:39.340 --> 00:12:41.620 or board meetings of companies, 224 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:43.400 they talk about the social licence, 225 00:12:43.500 --> 00:12:44.940 you must have a social licence. 226 00:12:45.740 --> 00:12:48.860 And at the ground level, they talk about social licence. 227 00:12:49.960 --> 00:12:51.760 But they may not be meaning the same thing. 228 00:12:51.800 --> 00:12:52.280 Very different meanings. 229 00:12:52.380 --> 00:12:53.940 I think from the corporate sector, 230 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:57.040 what they're often talking about is being allowed to operate 231 00:12:57.040 --> 00:12:59.680 and having a sufficiently robust reputation 232 00:12:59.680 --> 00:13:01.000 that they can get away with murder, 233 00:13:02.020 --> 00:13:04.620 literally in some cases, unfortunately. 234 00:13:05.220 --> 00:13:08.260 But if you look at the effect of things like fracking 235 00:13:08.260 --> 00:13:10.960 and coal seam gas extraction generally 236 00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:13.080 and open-cut mining, 237 00:13:13.240 --> 00:13:15.480 and we've got experience of that right round the country, 238 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:19.940 it's very clear that while we do assess the baseline 239 00:13:19.940 --> 00:13:23.840 in things like water quality, sometimes, not always well, 240 00:13:24.820 --> 00:13:26.320 biodiversity and so on, 241 00:13:26.380 --> 00:13:29.700 it's very rare to assess the community as it stands. 242 00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:32.520 You know, what's the baseline community functioning here? 243 00:13:33.100 --> 00:13:35.560 And we know from the US, for example, 244 00:13:35.560 --> 00:13:38.180 where there's been a lot of... 245 00:13:38.260 --> 00:13:39.140 coal seam gas extraction, 246 00:13:39.340 --> 00:13:41.920 and northern New South Wales and Queensland as well, 247 00:13:42.620 --> 00:13:45.500 that where comparisons have been able to be made, 248 00:13:45.560 --> 00:13:47.120 and it's difficult because you're sort of looking 249 00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:48.860 what happens after the event, 250 00:13:49.160 --> 00:13:51.720 there are really significant effects on communities. 251 00:13:52.180 --> 00:13:54.580 That the destruction of the physical environment, 252 00:13:54.880 --> 00:13:56.920 the industrialisation of the landscape, 253 00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:00.480 the roads that are built across agricultural land, 254 00:14:00.780 --> 00:14:02.300 the grids, you have a look, 255 00:14:02.380 --> 00:14:04.880 take a bird's-eye view of a lot of these places, 256 00:14:04.940 --> 00:14:05.940 and I'm sure you've seen them, 257 00:14:06.040 --> 00:14:08.240 of the wells and the roads and the pipelines, 258 00:14:08.260 --> 00:14:10.900 those landscapes are destroyed forever. 259 00:14:11.640 --> 00:14:14.880 And nobody ever really asked the community as a whole 260 00:14:14.880 --> 00:14:16.640 about that, what effect it would have on them. 261 00:14:16.920 --> 00:14:18.760 But it does have very significant effects, 262 00:14:18.940 --> 00:14:22.200 depression, anxiety, increased admissions to hospitals. 263 00:14:22.540 --> 00:14:24.100 If you compare community A, 264 00:14:24.220 --> 00:14:28.080 that has the same kind of economic profile as community B, 265 00:14:28.280 --> 00:14:29.960 one gets fracking and one doesn't, 266 00:14:30.040 --> 00:14:33.160 you can see that, you know, the departure in terms of wellbeing 267 00:14:33.160 --> 00:14:34.620 occurs pretty quickly. 268 00:14:34.860 --> 00:14:36.500 And in northern New South Wales, 269 00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:38.240 the studies there have shown very clearly 270 00:14:38.260 --> 00:14:40.160 that the destruction of place, 271 00:14:40.380 --> 00:14:42.220 which Glenn Albrecht calls soul nostalgia, 272 00:14:42.580 --> 00:14:45.540 watching the place underneath you fragment and fall apart, 273 00:14:45.900 --> 00:14:48.620 is a very real phenomenon reflected in things like 274 00:14:48.620 --> 00:14:50.600 alcohol abuse, domestic violence, 275 00:14:50.860 --> 00:14:53.300 all of these things that go with people's lives 276 00:14:53.300 --> 00:14:54.820 and wellbeing being upended. 277 00:14:55.200 --> 00:14:57.580 And there's a time dimension. 278 00:14:58.020 --> 00:15:04.920 So it's not just when the fracking's happened 279 00:15:04.920 --> 00:15:06.340 or when the mining's happened. 280 00:15:06.540 --> 00:15:07.260 It's people. 281 00:15:07.300 --> 00:15:09.780 It's people's hopes and expectations. 282 00:15:09.860 --> 00:15:13.360 So some of the towns that I've been doing work in 283 00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:16.400 have been towns where actually nothing has happened. 284 00:15:17.340 --> 00:15:19.180 And in one town in particular, 285 00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:22.980 they were successful in rejecting the company. 286 00:15:23.180 --> 00:15:26.020 But it's created this enormous conflict 287 00:15:26.020 --> 00:15:27.540 and rift within the town. 288 00:15:27.680 --> 00:15:29.880 So the level of civility in the town 289 00:15:29.880 --> 00:15:32.140 has gone down dramatically. 290 00:15:32.640 --> 00:15:34.220 And people don't talk to each other. 291 00:15:34.280 --> 00:15:37.280 Now, you're talking a town of 2,000, 3,000 people. 292 00:15:38.100 --> 00:15:42.280 It's very difficult to live in a town of 2,000, 3,000 people 293 00:15:42.280 --> 00:15:45.520 when I don't go to that store anymore 294 00:15:45.520 --> 00:15:47.980 because they were on the other side, 295 00:15:48.140 --> 00:15:53.520 when you have families being literally pulled apart at the seams, 296 00:15:53.640 --> 00:15:58.260 when the husband has a promise of work with the gas company 297 00:15:58.260 --> 00:16:04.680 and the wife has a farm where she's dealing with buses coming in. 298 00:16:04.860 --> 00:16:07.280 And this sort of conflict. 299 00:16:07.300 --> 00:16:10.420 This sort of shaming and sanctioning 300 00:16:10.420 --> 00:16:12.820 that goes on within the town itself. 301 00:16:13.220 --> 00:16:15.740 So that actually it's not just... 302 00:16:15.740 --> 00:16:17.340 The effect is prior. 303 00:16:17.660 --> 00:16:21.660 And it's caught up with people's expectations 304 00:16:21.660 --> 00:16:24.240 of what's going to happen even before it does. 305 00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:24.580 Exactly. 306 00:16:24.580 --> 00:16:27.580 And the process of getting approval for these things. 307 00:16:27.640 --> 00:16:30.300 I don't know if many of you followed the debate 308 00:16:30.300 --> 00:16:32.740 over the James Price point gas hub 309 00:16:33.300 --> 00:16:36.300 and offshore facilities in the Kimberley. 310 00:16:36.860 --> 00:16:41.700 This is an area that is one of the last wildernesses in this country, 311 00:16:42.380 --> 00:16:43.800 which is not to denigrate 312 00:16:43.800 --> 00:16:46.200 the very substantial indigenous population who live there. 313 00:16:46.600 --> 00:16:48.620 For them, it's home rather than a wilderness. 314 00:16:48.760 --> 00:16:51.640 But for the rest of the world, it's a wilderness. 315 00:16:51.980 --> 00:16:54.140 And it's listed on the National Heritage List, 316 00:16:54.280 --> 00:16:57.000 and in my view, much of it should be on the World Heritage List. 317 00:16:57.100 --> 00:16:58.120 This is a precious place. 318 00:16:58.220 --> 00:17:00.540 If you've never been to the Kimberley, really, you should go. 319 00:17:00.620 --> 00:17:01.020 Have you been? 320 00:17:02.040 --> 00:17:02.840 It's on my list. 321 00:17:03.760 --> 00:17:05.940 But at James Price point north of Broome, 322 00:17:05.940 --> 00:17:07.900 there was a proposal to establish a gas hub 323 00:17:07.900 --> 00:17:11.480 and then pipe the gas from offshore to this large gas hub. 324 00:17:11.560 --> 00:17:12.520 Big industrial site. 325 00:17:12.760 --> 00:17:15.160 And there are similar threats now emerging with fracking 326 00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:17.180 of the canning basins, as it's called up there. 327 00:17:17.420 --> 00:17:20.600 And in that community around the proposal for the gas hub, 328 00:17:20.740 --> 00:17:24.340 there were some indigenous people particularly who were supporting it, 329 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:26.240 largely on the grounds of improved employment 330 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:29.040 and economic positioning, which is understandable, 331 00:17:29.320 --> 00:17:31.300 but a number of them who were very concerned 332 00:17:31.300 --> 00:17:33.760 about the impact on their culture and their livelihood, 333 00:17:34.080 --> 00:17:35.860 and they stood up very strongly. 334 00:17:35.860 --> 00:17:35.920 Yes. 335 00:17:35.940 --> 00:17:38.800 Along with a range of other people in the community against it. 336 00:17:39.020 --> 00:17:41.820 Eventually, the company decided not to proceed with it. 337 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:46.860 But the process of that community debating the issue and taking sides 338 00:17:46.860 --> 00:17:50.600 produced some very unpleasant consequences for the people who lived there, 339 00:17:50.660 --> 00:17:54.600 which is still, some years later, being played out. 340 00:17:54.820 --> 00:17:59.620 So this whole social licence to operate that doesn't take account 341 00:17:59.620 --> 00:18:01.980 of those processes, I think, is fraudulent 342 00:18:01.980 --> 00:18:03.980 because there is real damage done, 343 00:18:03.980 --> 00:18:07.940 and it's extremely difficult sometimes to re-establish those links 344 00:18:07.940 --> 00:18:08.920 if they're not anticipated. 345 00:18:09.980 --> 00:18:10.960 I think so. 346 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:14.180 And I mean, there's so many things I could say. 347 00:18:14.260 --> 00:18:18.000 I mean, one of the return trips from northern New South Wales, 348 00:18:18.100 --> 00:18:19.820 I went through a place called the Bylong Valley. 349 00:18:20.180 --> 00:18:23.360 I don't know if any of you know the Bylong Valley. 350 00:18:23.840 --> 00:18:31.020 But we were driving home, and just this amazing vista opened up 351 00:18:31.020 --> 00:18:32.980 in between two national parks. 352 00:18:32.980 --> 00:18:34.820 It's the most beautiful place. 353 00:18:35.600 --> 00:18:38.240 One of the most beautiful places I've been in Australia, 354 00:18:38.500 --> 00:18:42.080 and I've been to many, but not particularly. 355 00:18:43.160 --> 00:18:46.720 And I stopped at a little roadside cafe. 356 00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:51.020 It's now totally owned by a Chinese mining company. 357 00:18:51.120 --> 00:18:54.200 It will not exist in a few years' time. 358 00:18:55.600 --> 00:19:01.020 And I spoke to the woman who served a very, very good cup of coffee, 359 00:19:01.060 --> 00:19:02.580 which is very important in my life. 360 00:19:02.980 --> 00:19:05.900 And she said, yes, everybody has now gone. 361 00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:09.640 So sometimes you get this fracturing of communities, 362 00:19:09.660 --> 00:19:12.860 and sometimes people just leave. 363 00:19:13.360 --> 00:19:17.480 So essentially that place has a very, very small population. 364 00:19:17.660 --> 00:19:22.080 It is a magnificent place, and we have so many of those in Australia. 365 00:19:22.100 --> 00:19:23.720 I just want to say one thing about fracking. 366 00:19:24.120 --> 00:19:26.500 Fracking is a really interesting word. 367 00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:32.780 It's used so for those who want coal seam gas, 368 00:19:32.980 --> 00:19:39.080 fracking is a very specific chemical process for releasing the gas. 369 00:19:39.980 --> 00:19:43.640 And they argue about the specific nature 370 00:19:43.640 --> 00:19:47.800 of that very narrow chemical engineering activity. 371 00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:52.240 For those who don't want the coal seam gas, 372 00:19:52.980 --> 00:19:56.320 fracking represents everything that is wrong with the industry. 373 00:19:56.800 --> 00:20:02.960 And so certainly in terms of the research that I did in New South Wales, 374 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:07.880 these two versions came through very clearly to me. 375 00:20:08.100 --> 00:20:11.620 And I'm not saying that one is right or one is wrong. 376 00:20:11.840 --> 00:20:16.720 But when I talk to people talking about coal seam gas, 377 00:20:16.840 --> 00:20:19.500 often I always ask people, do you know coal seam gas? 378 00:20:19.540 --> 00:20:21.900 And they'll say no, but everybody knows the word fracking. 379 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:26.640 It's been very effective in that sense, that it attaches a meaning. 380 00:20:27.560 --> 00:20:30.660 But I guess part of the problem is that we then have to think through 381 00:20:30.660 --> 00:20:32.880 what are the consequences of these activities, 382 00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:33.760 in the long term. 383 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:36.360 And that's been the problem with a lot of the approvals 384 00:20:36.360 --> 00:20:38.020 and the dollar value type approvals, 385 00:20:38.080 --> 00:20:41.940 that you can look at the immediate relatively short term 386 00:20:41.940 --> 00:20:43.340 and you can look at the amount of investment. 387 00:20:43.780 --> 00:20:47.460 You can look at the effects on employment in the region, 388 00:20:47.620 --> 00:20:51.280 although they're often exaggerated, as we've done with Adani. 389 00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:56.560 You can look at the spin-off effects in other industries in the area. 390 00:20:57.000 --> 00:20:58.380 And on the other side of the ledger, 391 00:20:58.420 --> 00:21:00.460 you should be looking at some of those consequences 392 00:21:00.460 --> 00:21:02.420 that are captured by the 393 00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:06.260 the scary word fracking, the contamination of water supply, 394 00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:10.000 the destruction of the landscape, all of these things, 395 00:21:10.040 --> 00:21:13.360 which are much harder to value, are set against some very particular 396 00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:15.540 economic benefits, in inverted commas. 397 00:21:15.660 --> 00:21:18.380 And on the other side of the ledger, the things that we really value, 398 00:21:20.580 --> 00:21:23.140 community, environment, standard of living, 399 00:21:23.460 --> 00:21:27.080 they're set against it in a way that means they're often imprecisely captured. 400 00:21:27.420 --> 00:21:30.600 And especially the long term, you think of the whole exploitation 401 00:21:30.600 --> 00:21:31.940