WEBVTT 1 00:00:32.160 --> 00:00:34.620 Alright, thanks for that. 2 00:00:49.660 --> 00:00:51.680 Okay, good morning everybody. 3 00:00:52.100 --> 00:00:56.760 My name is Minnie Vincent and I'm the Commissioner for Equal Opportunity. 4 00:00:56.760 --> 00:01:02.240 Standing is the Philip Adams, so I apologise for not being Philip Adams. 5 00:01:02.600 --> 00:01:11.820 The first thing I want to do is acknowledge that we are on Ghanai land 6 00:01:11.820 --> 00:01:15.740 and also acknowledge the special significance that that has, 7 00:01:17.160 --> 00:01:21.180 particularly in this week, which is NAIDOC week, of course, 8 00:01:21.200 --> 00:01:26.480 where we celebrate all the achievements and beautiful things. 9 00:01:26.760 --> 00:01:29.860 It's about being Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander. 10 00:01:29.940 --> 00:01:31.000 It's been a wonderful week. 11 00:01:31.420 --> 00:01:33.420 There's a little bit of housekeeping before we start. 12 00:01:33.560 --> 00:01:37.880 Please make sure that your mobile phones are switched to silent. 13 00:01:38.880 --> 00:01:41.900 But we don't want you to switch them off because we do want you to tweet 14 00:01:41.900 --> 00:01:45.840 and Instagram and Facebook and all of that sort of stuff. 15 00:01:47.060 --> 00:01:49.780 I think, are the hands up there? No, they're not. 16 00:01:49.860 --> 00:01:55.620 So the tweet handle is ADL at ADLFOI. 17 00:01:56.160 --> 00:01:56.740 Hashtag ADLFOI. 18 00:01:56.760 --> 00:02:00.520 And Instagram is pretty much the same. 19 00:02:00.600 --> 00:02:04.180 I'm sure if you start typing it, it will come up automatically. 20 00:02:04.680 --> 00:02:07.120 No unauthorised recordings, please. 21 00:02:07.240 --> 00:02:10.680 The session is being recorded by Radio Adelaide 22 00:02:11.680 --> 00:02:14.560 and it will be broadcast in the future. 23 00:02:15.480 --> 00:02:18.520 And I'm not sure if it's been video recorded, but if it is, 24 00:02:18.520 --> 00:02:20.820 that's been my day at Adelaide. 25 00:02:21.760 --> 00:02:25.040 So I've got a couple of really fabulous guests here with me. 26 00:02:25.780 --> 00:02:30.180 Firstly, Nina Fennell, who is an award-winning investigative journalist 27 00:02:30.180 --> 00:02:35.360 for Hugh Matilda and a social commentator and anti-sexual assault advocate. 28 00:02:35.840 --> 00:02:40.280 And Jane Carrow, who is an author, novelist, journalist, broadcaster, 29 00:02:40.320 --> 00:02:43.260 columnist, advertising writer and social commentator 30 00:02:43.260 --> 00:02:46.360 who still hasn't worked out what she wants to do when she grows up. 31 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:50.120 So can I just have a show of hands? 32 00:02:50.160 --> 00:02:54.920 Anyone here hasn't heard about MeToo, Harvey Weinstein, John Boone, 33 00:02:59.620 --> 00:03:02.520 or the other 34 00:03:02.520 --> 00:03:14.180 I'm going to just start off by saying that the Commission for Equal Opportunity in South Australia, 35 00:03:14.540 --> 00:03:17.920 unlike other commissions around Australia, 36 00:03:18.160 --> 00:03:23.520 we have seen quite a big upturn in complaints of sexual harassment 37 00:03:23.520 --> 00:03:24.800 over the last six months. 38 00:03:24.920 --> 00:03:29.280 So it's gone from being our number four area of complaint to being our number two. 39 00:03:29.540 --> 00:03:32.040 And in the last week we had another four or five. 40 00:03:32.740 --> 00:03:42.000 And so, and they're not trivial, they are serious, serious sexual harassment complaints. 41 00:03:43.480 --> 00:03:47.940 And so I don't know why we're different, but we are. 42 00:03:48.820 --> 00:03:52.700 And one of the other things that I think, perhaps one of the reasons why we're different 43 00:03:52.700 --> 00:03:57.920 is because we did do an independent review into SA Police in late 2016, 44 00:03:58.180 --> 00:03:58.720 that was released. 45 00:03:59.260 --> 00:04:04.080 And so there had been a lot of talk about sexual harassment and sex discrimination, 46 00:04:04.100 --> 00:04:05.160 I think, around that. 47 00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:10.760 But one of the things that was really important about that was we started off a survey asking, 48 00:04:11.040 --> 00:04:14.740 of SA Police, asking have you experienced sexual harassment? 49 00:04:14.980 --> 00:04:16.780 And we got lots of views that yes, they had. 50 00:04:17.200 --> 00:04:22.660 But it wasn't until we asked have you experienced these specific behaviours that we got a whole 51 00:04:22.660 --> 00:04:26.000 hell of a lot more people talking about experiencing sexual harassment. 52 00:04:26.340 --> 00:04:31.400 So there's a big difference between, you know, asking that question and then giving specific 53 00:04:31.400 --> 00:04:32.180 behaviours. 54 00:04:32.220 --> 00:04:33.520 It's an information gap. 55 00:04:33.580 --> 00:04:39.820 People don't actually perhaps even recognise that what they're experiencing is sexual harassment. 56 00:04:41.080 --> 00:04:44.320 And so Nina, can I get you to talk a little bit about that? 57 00:04:44.380 --> 00:04:48.500 Because that's something that you noticed as well, isn't it? 58 00:04:48.620 --> 00:04:52.640 That people don't realise what sexual harassment is. 59 00:04:53.560 --> 00:04:54.700 Yeah, absolutely. 60 00:04:55.080 --> 00:05:00.320 And in a previous life I used to be part of the team that trained NRL football players 61 00:05:00.320 --> 00:05:03.040 on their off-field behaviour in relation to women and consent. 62 00:05:03.620 --> 00:05:07.500 And I can tell you it's not just people who have experienced sexual assault or harassment 63 00:05:07.500 --> 00:05:09.720 who may have difficulty labelling that. 64 00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:13.960 And that's not, in some cases that might be because they're actually in trauma and they're 65 00:05:13.960 --> 00:05:16.180 in shock, so they're minimising what's happened to them. 66 00:05:16.420 --> 00:05:20.220 It's also because of readiness and, you know, we still, a lot of people in the community 67 00:05:20.220 --> 00:05:22.480 still subscribe to kids' belief that they're not really being treated as a child. 68 00:05:22.660 --> 00:05:27.260 And so, you know, the real sexual assault in big scale quotes is the stranger danger 69 00:05:27.260 --> 00:05:30.000 who jumps out from behind the dumpster and about to bother her. 70 00:05:30.040 --> 00:05:35.820 And so when it's somebody they know, they may have difficulty recognising assault as 71 00:05:35.820 --> 00:05:36.160 assault. 72 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:41.260 But equally, individuals who are perpetrating these actions do not necessarily recognise 73 00:05:41.260 --> 00:05:42.920 all they know what they're doing is assault. 74 00:05:43.100 --> 00:05:48.120 And one of the big pieces of research that was done in the NRL very early on, through 75 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:52.640 one-on-one interviews and so on, the number of players who would be involved in sexual 76 00:05:52.660 --> 00:05:59.880 assault would ostensibly be appalled, absolutely appalled by rape, who would then go on in 77 00:05:59.880 --> 00:06:04.640 the same interview to admit to things that legally met the definition of rape with absolute 78 00:06:04.640 --> 00:06:07.660 disconnect, you know, complete copy of the discipline. 79 00:06:07.860 --> 00:06:11.340 And so I think when we're talking about these things, I mean there was a big piece of research 80 00:06:11.340 --> 00:06:15.920 done last year by the Australian Human Rights Commission into sexual assault at universities 81 00:06:16.660 --> 00:06:18.200 and sexual harassment at universities. 82 00:06:18.740 --> 00:06:22.640 And one of the things that we know really clearly is you have to ask those people who 83 00:06:22.660 --> 00:06:27.000 ask behaviour-based questions, you can't simply ask, have you been sexually assaulted? 84 00:06:27.260 --> 00:06:31.300 Because the majority of people who have don't necessarily classify it or feel comfortable 85 00:06:31.300 --> 00:06:33.820 with the social stigma still attached to it. 86 00:06:34.080 --> 00:06:38.120 And unfortunately that piece of research didn't ask the behaviour-based questions about sexual 87 00:06:38.120 --> 00:06:41.060 assault, so it will produce under-reporting. 88 00:06:41.220 --> 00:06:44.740 And that's something I think we're going to need to look at moving forward in how we 89 00:06:44.740 --> 00:06:48.580 do research, making sure we're including that behaviour-based stuff. 90 00:06:49.060 --> 00:06:51.260 Can I just comment on that? 91 00:06:51.260 --> 00:06:56.420 Because when you were talking about the disconnect between the NRL players who are appalled at 92 00:06:56.420 --> 00:07:04.360 the idea of rape that have actually behaved in ways that didn't start definition, it 93 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:10.220 strikes me that one of our problems has been the way that we talk about sexual relations 94 00:07:10.220 --> 00:07:11.120 between men and women. 95 00:07:11.260 --> 00:07:15.780 I mean we call it the chase, which is the hunting metaphor. 96 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:21.240 So for a very long time we've had a view that men chase women. 97 00:07:21.260 --> 00:07:21.980 Women resist. 98 00:07:22.420 --> 00:07:28.700 And then the successful man overcomes the resistance and catches their prey. 99 00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:35.900 And if you think about romance and seduction through that light, it's not surprising that 100 00:07:35.900 --> 00:07:40.160 we have a lot of difficulty understanding what we're talking about. 101 00:07:40.640 --> 00:07:47.400 And there's been a view for a very long time that good girls say no, but they don't really 102 00:07:47.400 --> 00:07:48.500 mean no. 103 00:07:49.260 --> 00:07:50.820 And so there's... 104 00:07:50.820 --> 00:07:54.400 I mean we've brought up young men to be completely confused about this. 105 00:07:54.400 --> 00:08:01.360 I suppose you're referring to that as the adversarial model of sex, where this idea 106 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:05.260 that heterosexual men are supposed to hunt down... 107 00:08:05.260 --> 00:08:09.200 I mean even if you look at the language that we use around it, we talk about men scoring 108 00:08:09.820 --> 00:08:12.360 as though this is scoring against an opposition. 109 00:08:12.860 --> 00:08:19.420 Or language like men bang, they nail, they hit it, which I would say it sounds like they're 110 00:08:19.420 --> 00:08:20.220 going to the hardware shop. 111 00:08:20.740 --> 00:08:26.520 Whereas if you look at the language around women, they yield, they submit, they surrender. 112 00:08:26.820 --> 00:08:32.820 It's this very much adversarial model where, in heterosexual courtship at least, men are 113 00:08:32.820 --> 00:08:36.200 supposedly meant to extract sex from an unwilling participant. 114 00:08:36.700 --> 00:08:41.520 And so if an individual, if a woman is saying no at first, that's seen as, well that's not 115 00:08:41.520 --> 00:08:44.840 what we're going to say at first, and I just need to push through this initial resistance, 116 00:08:45.100 --> 00:08:45.960 and that's courtship. 117 00:08:46.180 --> 00:08:50.200 And I think until we rewrite those rules around gender and around power, and around sex, and 118 00:08:50.200 --> 00:08:56.280 about gender equality, and how we think about negotiating consent, we're still going to 119 00:08:56.280 --> 00:08:58.240 be coming up against those maladie regime stereotypes. 120 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:05.340 Jane, I want to talk about what the outcome has been. 121 00:09:05.560 --> 00:09:13.000 Because obviously, Me Too hasn't been a silver bullet, but change has happened. 122 00:09:13.280 --> 00:09:18.900 And I think you said that the world's become a little bit safer for people who've experienced 123 00:09:18.900 --> 00:09:19.700 sex. 124 00:09:20.280 --> 00:09:24.200 Well I think there's not just people who've experienced it, but people who are vulnerable. 125 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:25.520 So the world's begun... 126 00:09:25.520 --> 00:09:31.440 Because for the first time, I think, and I mean, this was contributing to a book that 127 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:38.820 I published just before the Weinstein regulations unbreakable. 128 00:09:40.120 --> 00:09:44.900 And basically, women were shamed into silence about this behaviour. 129 00:09:45.220 --> 00:09:50.120 So I asked a whole bunch of women to write, tell the stories they found. 130 00:10:04.060 --> 00:10:16.700 I think I think I think I think I think I 131 00:10:16.700 --> 00:10:25.120 and defines women by basically their sexual parts rather than as a whole person. 132 00:10:25.700 --> 00:10:32.120 And what came out of this, you know, telling the stories that were hardest to tell, 133 00:10:33.280 --> 00:10:36.140 was that silence is the result of shame. 134 00:10:36.340 --> 00:10:38.940 So when you are ashamed, you stay silent. 135 00:10:39.060 --> 00:10:44.680 Well, silence is wonderful because it really works to protect those who exploit their power 136 00:10:44.680 --> 00:10:47.220 to use other people for their own gratification. 137 00:10:47.640 --> 00:10:51.580 Because if women are too afraid because they'll be, you know, stigmatised 138 00:10:51.580 --> 00:10:54.920 or they just feel ashamed, everybody takes the shame. 139 00:10:55.100 --> 00:10:58.900 I was with a doctor and I took the shame internally 140 00:10:58.900 --> 00:11:02.580 and felt that somehow I had created this situation. 141 00:11:03.180 --> 00:11:06.160 I couldn't even bear to think about it or talk about it 142 00:11:06.160 --> 00:11:08.600 although I had done absolutely nothing wrong. 143 00:11:10.880 --> 00:11:14.400 So I think the point about me too is it's broken, shattered. 144 00:11:14.680 --> 00:11:18.500 It's smashed that silence, which is millennia old. 145 00:11:18.920 --> 00:11:20.980 It's millennia old. 146 00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:22.260 It's not new, it's not modern. 147 00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:23.440 It's been going on forever. 148 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:27.460 And by smashing that silence for the first time, 149 00:11:27.520 --> 00:11:32.320 what it's done is it's made the world a little bit safer for the vulnerable. 150 00:11:32.680 --> 00:11:34.020 Both male and female. 151 00:11:34.280 --> 00:11:38.360 And a little bit more dangerous for those who have used their power 152 00:11:38.360 --> 00:11:41.020 to exploit others for their own gratification. 153 00:11:41.140 --> 00:11:43.660 Because for the first time, they may, 154 00:11:44.680 --> 00:11:48.180 they may be at a real risk of the person they talk to speaking up. 155 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:52.100 They may not go to the police, they may not go to a jail or the police or whoever. 156 00:11:52.600 --> 00:11:54.940 But that silence was protective. 157 00:11:55.300 --> 00:11:57.740 It's incredibly important that it's been broken. 158 00:11:58.500 --> 00:12:01.960 Not just for our daughters, because people say, 159 00:12:02.060 --> 00:12:03.560 you know, yes, you know, we want to protect them. 160 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:05.780 But because, I mean, I've got a two-year-old grandson 161 00:12:05.780 --> 00:12:09.000 and so it's a life for the person in the entire world and the life of my life. 162 00:12:09.340 --> 00:12:12.580 And I look at him sometimes and I think, I want this for you. 163 00:12:12.800 --> 00:12:14.280 It's the worst thing I can think of. 164 00:12:14.280 --> 00:12:18.260 Because when you grow up to think that this behaviour is reasonable 165 00:12:18.260 --> 00:12:19.860 ought to be a perfect change of the system. 166 00:12:20.140 --> 00:12:24.280 To me, that's much worse than my granddaughter being a victim, which is bad enough. 167 00:12:24.460 --> 00:12:27.460 But for him to think that this is the way to behave, 168 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:31.500 it's a really important stuff and it's about sharing the silence, 169 00:12:31.520 --> 00:12:32.840 not taking the good for the worst. 170 00:12:34.040 --> 00:12:41.380 Nina, you came out about your own experience of sexual assault before social media. 171 00:12:41.700 --> 00:12:42.940 Tell us about that. 172 00:12:42.980 --> 00:12:44.020 Tell us about that. 173 00:12:44.280 --> 00:12:45.860 And the difference that you see now. 174 00:12:47.460 --> 00:12:52.760 Yeah, so when I did come out, I was, so just as a little bit of background and context. 175 00:12:53.700 --> 00:12:56.660 I studied media communications at Sydney University. 176 00:12:56.800 --> 00:12:59.280 And on the day of my hours presentation while travelling home, 177 00:12:59.420 --> 00:13:05.280 I was attacked in one of those highly antithetical, randomised attacks. 178 00:13:06.540 --> 00:13:12.920 It involved, I was bashed and scrambled and killed in my apartment as well. 179 00:13:14.500 --> 00:13:18.300 And I made the decision at the time to speak out publicly and immediately 180 00:13:18.300 --> 00:13:19.880 delayed my life and anonymity. 181 00:13:20.560 --> 00:13:24.280 But this was, social media was in its very infancy. 182 00:13:24.920 --> 00:13:26.700 So this was back in the day of MySpace. 183 00:13:28.020 --> 00:13:33.980 And it was pretty difficult to come out in because what it meant was that I had to go through 184 00:13:33.980 --> 00:13:41.840 the traditional gatekeepers of mainstream media, who are primarily, as we know, white, middle-aged men, 185 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:47.400 who have particular views about how their stories should be told, how they should be framed up, 186 00:13:47.420 --> 00:13:52.040 the parts of your story that matter most, and where the emphasis lies. 187 00:13:52.420 --> 00:13:56.780 And one of the things that we know about sexual assault, but sexual harassment as well, 188 00:13:56.980 --> 00:13:59.760 is that these are crimes of power and control. 189 00:14:00.680 --> 00:14:06.360 And in any subsequent process that follows a sexual assault, one of the most empowering things that we can do 190 00:14:06.360 --> 00:14:08.660 for survivors is to restore power and control. 191 00:14:08.960 --> 00:14:11.820 Whether that's a policing process, whether it's media control, 192 00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:14.940 whether it's a media process, whatever the process is, whether it's a counselling process, 193 00:14:15.400 --> 00:14:17.640 what you want to be doing is giving agency back. 194 00:14:18.100 --> 00:14:23.780 And so, I now work as a journalist, and I pretty much exclusively report on sexual assault. 195 00:14:24.040 --> 00:14:28.580 And because I started my career on the other side of the camera, 196 00:14:28.640 --> 00:14:33.480 having other people tell my story, and telling it in ways that could not always empower me, 197 00:14:33.620 --> 00:14:40.060 and telling it in ways which actually stripped me of further agency because my story was being told 198 00:14:40.060 --> 00:14:41.320 through other people's lenses. 199 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:48.280 It's made me really hyper-aware of the importance of actually making sure that, as journalists, 200 00:14:48.340 --> 00:14:55.180 we have an ethical responsibility to be really mindful that when we are interviewing a sexual assault survivor, 201 00:14:55.880 --> 00:15:00.380 there is an asymmetrical power relationship between the journalist and them. 202 00:15:00.700 --> 00:15:06.560 And if you're not conscious of that at every moment, and reflecting on how your own power can be abused, 203 00:15:06.860 --> 00:15:08.900 you will lose it. And we all make mistakes. 204 00:15:08.900 --> 00:15:14.780 But for me, I guess what I see, and we've mentioned in social media in particular, 205 00:15:15.140 --> 00:15:19.840 is that it's democratised. Who can tell their stories in the public domain? 206 00:15:20.780 --> 00:15:27.260 And women no longer have to go through those traditional gatekeepers of journalists and editors 207 00:15:27.260 --> 00:15:31.500 in order to be able to say, me too, and here is my story. 208 00:15:31.880 --> 00:15:38.340 And so, social media, for all its ills, and we can talk about the toxicity and the misogyny and so on and on as well, 209 00:15:38.900 --> 00:15:42.200 but I think what it has done is that it's had a democratising effect, 210 00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:48.120 where people can certainly navigate journalists and editors, and that's actually a really good thing. 211 00:15:48.300 --> 00:15:48.920 Yeah, okay. 212 00:15:50.660 --> 00:15:57.820 Yesterday, I interviewed Jenny Triggs, the former President of the Australian Human Rights Commission on stage, 213 00:15:57.900 --> 00:16:02.920 and she expressed her concern towards the end of the talk about the MeToo movement. 214 00:16:03.020 --> 00:16:08.040 She thought it had been good, but not all good, and was worried about people coming out 215 00:16:08.040 --> 00:16:12.620 and ruining people's careers, etc, etc. 216 00:16:12.820 --> 00:16:14.940 Jenny, what do you have to say about that? 217 00:16:15.800 --> 00:16:18.560 I think it's a false worry, to be honest. 218 00:16:20.460 --> 00:16:25.200 Look, I'm not seeing, are you, a mass of people being named? 219 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:29.440 As far as I know in Australia, there have been three names. 220 00:16:30.900 --> 00:16:37.900 One of them was really not so much about gender, to speak, but who seemed to bully everyone he came in contact with. 221 00:16:38.660 --> 00:16:45.000 And I think that one's been substantially accepted as the truth. 222 00:16:45.280 --> 00:16:49.920 The other two have both been the rest of the distribution, and current mind. 223 00:16:50.820 --> 00:16:55.620 And I think there has been a relative silencer in that. 224 00:16:55.860 --> 00:17:00.420 I think there's a tendency for lawyers, particularly the Triggs's, who was a professor of law, 225 00:17:00.660 --> 00:17:04.860 to think of everything in the context of legal ramifications, 226 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:07.940 and that everything is about ending up in court. 227 00:17:08.040 --> 00:17:11.260 I actually don't see MeToo as like that at all. 228 00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:14.780 I see it, as I've said before, as a breaking of silence. 229 00:17:15.080 --> 00:17:17.240 Most of the women who are coming out and saying MeToo, 230 00:17:17.320 --> 00:17:20.200 and there are millions and millions and millions and millions of them all, 231 00:17:20.580 --> 00:17:21.980 have no interest, no one. 232 00:17:23.180 --> 00:17:26.420 No one in my book names their work track. 233 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:28.880 They have no interest in retribution. 234 00:17:29.700 --> 00:17:33.640 They have an interest in solidarity with one another, 235 00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:36.500 and taking the shame away. 236 00:17:37.820 --> 00:17:42.860 And making the world a bit safer for all the young women coming behind us. 237 00:17:42.900 --> 00:17:44.560 And it's safer for all the young men, 238 00:17:44.680 --> 00:17:46.740 so that they don't, one of the reasons I said before, 239 00:17:47.420 --> 00:17:50.580 thinking that's the right way to behave, the macho way to behave. 240 00:17:51.120 --> 00:17:54.020 And I think this worry that some people have about law, 241 00:17:54.060 --> 00:17:55.080 and people who have a lot of scholars careers, 242 00:17:55.120 --> 00:17:59.220 well, let's see if that happens before we say, 243 00:17:59.360 --> 00:18:01.340 no, no, let's shut this all down. 244 00:18:01.520 --> 00:18:04.160 I mean, I just think it's not all about the legal ramifications. 245 00:18:04.380 --> 00:18:04.940 But also, 246 00:18:04.940 --> 00:18:07.100 even if it does happen, 247 00:18:07.260 --> 00:18:08.280 I want to be really clear, 248 00:18:08.520 --> 00:18:10.460 it is not the woman ruining a man's life, 249 00:18:10.520 --> 00:18:13.160 it's a man ruining a man's life by making stupid decisions. 250 00:18:13.820 --> 00:18:16.180 And good, if he loses his job. 251 00:18:16.340 --> 00:18:18.300 I think from a legalist's point of view, 252 00:18:18.360 --> 00:18:20.840 it's the legalist's idea that he wants to ruin the beauty, 253 00:18:21.080 --> 00:18:22.600 which is very important. 254 00:18:22.980 --> 00:18:24.360 I mean, I do believe in it. 255 00:18:24.540 --> 00:18:26.780 And I think what she's worried about, 256 00:18:26.840 --> 00:18:30.120 one of the worries is not that men who've done it will be, 257 00:18:30.260 --> 00:18:34.820 but that revenge or people will be named who are recently, 258 00:18:34.820 --> 00:18:36.560 and that's why it's a false worry. 259 00:18:36.780 --> 00:18:38.380 I don't think that that's likely to happen. 260 00:18:38.740 --> 00:18:40.500 But also, even there, 261 00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:44.820 we need to acknowledge that false accusations are exceedingly rare. 262 00:18:45.860 --> 00:18:49.820 And the biggest issue has and always will be underreporting, 263 00:18:50.360 --> 00:18:51.380 not falsified reporting. 264 00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:55.280 And I think the moment that we're going to start a conversation like this, 265 00:18:55.300 --> 00:18:57.640 the fact that automatically people rush in to say, 266 00:18:57.800 --> 00:18:59.980 but false reports, false reports, false reports. 267 00:19:00.180 --> 00:19:01.120 I think it's a distraction. 268 00:19:01.400 --> 00:19:04.620 And I think it's a deflection from the far more likely, 269 00:19:04.620 --> 00:19:06.820 and more common harm, 270 00:19:07.020 --> 00:19:09.740 which is lack of reporting because people are, 271 00:19:09.860 --> 00:19:12.360 and we know the reasons why people don't report. 272 00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:16.440 They don't report because they're terrified that they will not be believed 273 00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:19.560 or that they will be blamed for what they have experienced. 274 00:19:19.980 --> 00:19:23.000 And they're the things which I think that we still need to keep focused on 275 00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:23.700 at this point in time. 276 00:19:23.900 --> 00:19:25.880 Or they'll lose their job, et cetera. 277 00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:28.360 And it's much more likely that, in fact, 278 00:19:28.420 --> 00:19:31.760 the law and the compliance, in every case, 279 00:19:31.820 --> 00:19:34.120 I keep hearing about these men's careers have been ruined. 280 00:19:34.120 --> 00:19:34.880 I don't know. 281 00:19:34.980 --> 00:19:37.980 The men who have been named in shames and things like this, 282 00:19:38.040 --> 00:19:41.000 and I can think of a few over the last 20 years, 283 00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:44.880 some sports people, some running retail enterprise, 284 00:19:45.800 --> 00:19:46.940 all sorts of things. 285 00:19:47.140 --> 00:19:51.740 Not one of them has had their career so much as negatively impacted. 286 00:19:52.320 --> 00:19:56.160 So it's just, yeah, that's a shaming of it, isn't it? 287 00:19:56.180 --> 00:19:58.820 Well, I mean, Julie is not here to have a discussion. 288 00:19:59.220 --> 00:20:03.360 And I don't, I think it's okay to say you've got concerns about it. 289 00:20:03.360 --> 00:20:06.180 And perhaps she would have had a different perspective 290 00:20:06.180 --> 00:20:07.840 had we had this discussion with her. 291 00:20:08.940 --> 00:20:12.500 But I guess I want to go to, like, where to from here, 292 00:20:12.600 --> 00:20:15.440 which is, you know, part of the topic of this conversation. 293 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:18.980 We're hearing a lot more. 294 00:20:19.100 --> 00:20:21.380 We're hearing a lot more women's voices, as you said. 295 00:20:21.780 --> 00:20:23.460 But where do we go from here? 296 00:20:23.500 --> 00:20:24.880 Where do you see it going from here? 297 00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:27.340 It's not the panacea, et cetera, et cetera. 298 00:20:27.520 --> 00:20:28.920 But talk a little bit about that. 299 00:20:29.120 --> 00:20:30.340 Well, there are no magic wands. 300 00:20:30.380 --> 00:20:31.760 And this isn't a magic wand either. 301 00:20:31.960 --> 00:20:33.340 But I think that, you know, 302 00:20:33.360 --> 00:20:34.420 social media has had such a 303 00:20:34.420 --> 00:20:37.740 effect on changing the conversation 304 00:20:38.360 --> 00:20:42.320 and on giving them a sense of how powerful they can be 305 00:20:42.320 --> 00:20:46.200 when they're joined together with, as Nina was saying, 306 00:20:46.460 --> 00:20:48.740 the effect of social media. 307 00:20:48.940 --> 00:20:50.120 Because, I mean, we can't forget, 308 00:20:50.260 --> 00:20:52.280 but I think it was two women 309 00:20:52.280 --> 00:20:55.580 who over 30 years came out and talked about Bill Cosby. 310 00:20:55.760 --> 00:20:57.480 All the very similar... 311 00:20:57.480 --> 00:20:59.040 It's not that women haven't been speaking up. 312 00:20:59.160 --> 00:21:01.040 It's that nobody listened to what they did. 313 00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:03.340 And then what social media is, 314 00:21:03.360 --> 00:21:04.820 what it has done is given women... 315 00:21:05.360 --> 00:21:07.780 given women the ability to speak up in vast numbers 316 00:21:08.360 --> 00:21:10.060 so that it can be possible to do more. 317 00:21:10.180 --> 00:21:12.480 So that's really important. 318 00:21:12.840 --> 00:21:14.060 And it's really changing everything. 319 00:21:14.360 --> 00:21:17.580 One of the first things that I noticed when I watched... 320 00:21:17.580 --> 00:21:21.820 Has everyone seen Hannah Gadsby's fabulous Nanette? 321 00:21:23.560 --> 00:21:25.020 Well, do it immediately. 322 00:21:25.740 --> 00:21:26.220 LAUGHTER 323 00:21:27.340 --> 00:21:28.280 Oh, well. 324 00:21:28.740 --> 00:21:29.500 I don't know. 325 00:21:29.620 --> 00:21:30.820 Go borrow someone's television. 326 00:21:31.040 --> 00:21:31.660 Go hang it outside. 327 00:21:31.840 --> 00:21:32.540 I'm sure it's on YouTube. 328 00:21:32.540 --> 00:21:33.360 I'm sure it's on YouTube. 329 00:21:34.340 --> 00:21:35.600 I think it's only on Netflix. 330 00:21:35.980 --> 00:21:36.380 OK. 331 00:21:36.980 --> 00:21:37.820 To be fair. 332 00:21:38.840 --> 00:21:40.180 Anyway, it's absolutely fantastic. 333 00:21:40.460 --> 00:21:42.700 But I see it as completely about Me Too 334 00:21:42.700 --> 00:21:46.660 because one of the things I think Me Too has done... 335 00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:49.000 It's a few words I've read in this book, 336 00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:49.700 what makes this tick. 337 00:21:50.080 --> 00:21:51.280 I'll just say this for the end. 338 00:21:51.420 --> 00:21:54.300 But there are nine desires that need to be met 339 00:21:54.300 --> 00:21:56.860 before you can have a decent life. 340 00:21:56.940 --> 00:21:58.280 Above man's highest hierarchy. 341 00:21:58.940 --> 00:22:00.280 And this is the first... 342 00:22:00.280 --> 00:22:02.420 He lists them in O2 for all groups. 343 00:22:02.540 --> 00:22:03.060 This is the first one. 344 00:22:03.180 --> 00:22:04.300 Which he says is the most important. 345 00:22:04.560 --> 00:22:06.720 And that is the desire to take them seriously. 346 00:22:07.600 --> 00:22:11.980 And when I read that, I realised what my life in feminism is. 347 00:22:12.080 --> 00:22:14.880 And I think feminism is the desire by half the human race 348 00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:16.140 to be together, half the human race, 349 00:22:16.260 --> 00:22:17.480 to take them seriously. 350 00:22:18.420 --> 00:22:22.120 And I think Me Too is about what we say to men. 351 00:22:22.840 --> 00:22:24.200 This does happen to us. 352 00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:25.360 It matters. 353 00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:26.600 It hurts us. 354 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:27.580 It holds us back. 355 00:22:27.620 --> 00:22:28.420 It stops us from living. 356 00:22:28.840 --> 00:22:30.160 It makes us give up our dreams. 357 00:22:30.280 --> 00:22:31.040 It makes us afraid. 358 00:22:31.040 --> 00:22:33.860 It damages us psychologically and emotionally. 359 00:22:34.280 --> 00:22:35.640 And you need to hear the story. 360 00:22:35.860 --> 00:22:36.940 And I'm not going to discuss it. 361 00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:37.740 Hannah Gadsby says, 362 00:22:38.340 --> 00:22:41.080 I've told you this story as part of my comedy. 363 00:22:41.820 --> 00:22:45.960 Because I felt that that was how I got permission to be heard. 364 00:22:46.100 --> 00:22:49.580 Or if there could be a greater metaphor for not feeling you were going to be taken seriously, 365 00:22:49.760 --> 00:22:51.000 I'd like to see one. 366 00:22:51.400 --> 00:22:54.040 In this, halfway through, she stops being funny. 367 00:22:54.280 --> 00:22:55.980 And she becomes incredibly serious. 368 00:22:56.160 --> 00:22:57.240 And she says, my story matters. 369 00:22:57.600 --> 00:22:58.640 My pain matters. 370 00:22:58.940 --> 00:23:00.520 And I shouldn't have to paint it. 371 00:23:00.520 --> 00:23:03.980 I should have been more sensitive for your amusement or for what I'm able to tell it. 372 00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:08.100 And I think that that's part of the whole Me Too movement too. 373 00:23:08.840 --> 00:23:14.040 That's why to narrow it down to all that's about taking men to put a done-well thing 374 00:23:14.040 --> 00:23:17.500 is to really understand what this is actually about. 375 00:23:17.760 --> 00:23:23.120 And it is about, for the first time, women having an honest conversation publicly with themselves. 376 00:23:23.520 --> 00:23:25.280 Because women are the ones who are going to say, 377 00:23:25.380 --> 00:23:26.760 I don't know why I've been sexually assaulted. 378 00:23:27.120 --> 00:23:29.720 And then when you point out the behaviors that are sexual assault, 379 00:23:29.780 --> 00:23:30.320 and say, oh yes, 380 00:23:30.520 --> 00:23:31.120 that's what happened to me, 381 00:23:31.220 --> 00:23:34.120 they have failed to take their own experience seriously. 382 00:23:35.460 --> 00:23:36.960 By minimizing it. 383 00:23:37.020 --> 00:23:40.520 By refusing to accept that this should not have happened to me. 384 00:23:41.480 --> 00:23:45.600 And so what this is about, for the first time in history, really I think, 385 00:23:45.760 --> 00:23:50.460 is women are saying, you will take what happens to us and our pain seriously. 386 00:23:51.080 --> 00:23:52.640 We insist you do. 387 00:23:53.080 --> 00:23:55.620 And that is incredibly powerful. 388 00:23:55.960 --> 00:23:58.480 And I can't see how that's going to go backwards, 389 00:23:58.700 --> 00:23:59.920 except by force, 390 00:23:59.920 --> 00:24:02.060 which is by watching the handrails tell the speech. 391 00:24:02.320 --> 00:24:02.800 Yeah. 392 00:24:06.740 --> 00:24:08.400 I can barely watch it. 393 00:24:08.680 --> 00:24:09.100 Yeah. 394 00:24:10.980 --> 00:24:11.760 What do you think? 395 00:24:12.280 --> 00:24:13.720 You know, I mean, 396 00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:18.500 I guess I'll just answer with a couple of stories. 397 00:24:21.480 --> 00:24:24.500 So again, I'm going to go back to some of the NRO work. 398 00:24:24.760 --> 00:24:28.560 And we used to do an exercise with them where I would, 399 00:24:28.560 --> 00:24:31.320 I used to play great players. 400 00:24:31.740 --> 00:24:36.200 We'd ask them, so what do you do every day in your life, 401 00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:38.660