WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.720 --> 00:00:06.160 Hello everyone. Welcome to the Adelaide Festival of Ideas. Thank you for joining us on a Sunday 2 00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:10.280 morning. My name is Jodie Glass and I have the great pleasure of chairing this morning's 3 00:00:10.280 --> 00:00:16.460 session on parent guilt. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for joining us this morning. 4 00:00:16.620 --> 00:00:20.300 As I said, my name is Jodie Glass and I'm chairing the session. My job is merely to 5 00:00:20.300 --> 00:00:25.980 facilitate conversation between our panellists and also a discussion with you towards the 6 00:00:25.980 --> 00:00:30.860 end of the session. I'm going to take this opportunity to now introduce our esteemed 7 00:00:30.860 --> 00:00:37.940 panel. To my immediate left is Paul Willis. He's a paleontologist. He's a father of one 8 00:00:37.940 --> 00:00:49.540 child that he knows of. His son is 12 years old. I'm going to come back to Paul in just 9 00:00:49.540 --> 00:00:55.620 a second. We have Tasha Coates, a musician and mother of two children, both boys, and 10 00:00:55.620 --> 00:00:55.960 they've just been born. They've been born in the United States. They've been born in 11 00:00:55.960 --> 00:00:59.180 Australia. They've joined us today, if not to add to the guilt of being a parent, you 12 00:00:59.180 --> 00:01:05.800 have to bring them along to the work. Tasha is with a band called The Audreys, who you 13 00:01:05.800 --> 00:01:11.160 may know, a fantastic band. They formed in 2006 and have been touring ever since. Her 14 00:01:11.160 --> 00:01:18.060 sons are seven and three, which means Tasha was both pregnant on the road, which again 15 00:01:18.060 --> 00:01:24.000 is another form of guilt, as well as being a touring musician, a broadcast and recording 16 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:24.500 musician. 17 00:01:26.160 --> 00:01:30.360 We're going to hear from her about the juggle of both of those things. We're also going 18 00:01:30.360 --> 00:01:35.720 to hear about Tasha as she's had to be the mother to 30-year-old men who she's on the 19 00:01:35.720 --> 00:01:41.560 road with, which I'm not quite sure what's more challenging. Actually, I do. It's the 20 00:01:41.560 --> 00:01:42.120 30-year-old men. 21 00:01:42.820 --> 00:01:49.480 Finally, John Girardini. John is a child psychiatrist and is going to bring a wealth of information 22 00:01:49.480 --> 00:01:54.900 to all of us. Yes, he takes appointments with parents. In fact, John was just saying that 23 00:01:54.900 --> 00:01:55.860 that's with him. 24 00:01:55.960 --> 00:02:01.900 He's doing most of his work now is to help parents understand their parenting and the 25 00:02:01.900 --> 00:02:04.120 children with whom they're bringing up. 26 00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:09.940 I'm just going to go back to Paul before we open. I'm going to ask John time for now with 27 00:02:09.940 --> 00:02:16.040 the definition of guilt and the definition of shame. Paul remarked, as we met this morning, 28 00:02:16.920 --> 00:02:19.600 that he's a sperm donor, hence the call. 29 00:02:19.700 --> 00:02:20.020 Was. 30 00:02:20.160 --> 00:02:20.640 Was. 31 00:02:20.740 --> 00:02:21.680 Some time ago. 32 00:02:22.060 --> 00:02:23.480 Was. Wasn't an offer. 33 00:02:27.560 --> 00:02:28.080 Wasn't an offer. 34 00:02:28.080 --> 00:02:29.220 You know all my chatter. 35 00:02:31.780 --> 00:02:37.500 So that's why he said he's the parent of one son that he knows of. And we're going to, in 36 00:02:37.500 --> 00:02:41.620 fact, tease that out a little bit more during the conversation. But first I'm going to ask 37 00:02:41.620 --> 00:02:44.780 John to speak to us about guilt and shame. 38 00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:53.620 I think there's a lot of overlap between those two concepts. But shame is more about my appraisal 39 00:02:53.620 --> 00:02:55.940 of myself as a person when I've fallen short. 40 00:02:56.980 --> 00:03:03.900 Guilt is about my appraisal of my actions when I've fallen short. And so the positive side of 41 00:03:03.900 --> 00:03:12.380 guilt is that it offers an opportunity to repair damage that we've done. And so I would generally 42 00:03:12.380 --> 00:03:19.920 see guilt as a positive but uncomfortable emotional experience that we have. Of course, the 43 00:03:19.920 --> 00:03:23.900 experience of guilt when it's unjustified is a bad thing. 44 00:03:24.460 --> 00:03:25.060 But 45 00:03:25.960 --> 00:03:30.600 I don't think on the whole that parental guilt is something that we should feel bad about 46 00:03:31.380 --> 00:03:36.960 any more than we should feel bad about anger. Anger can lead to destructive behaviour, but 47 00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:42.740 anger can also lead to social change and very positive things, both within a family and 48 00:03:42.740 --> 00:03:48.940 outside a family. So shame, I think, is a potentially destructive emotion because in 49 00:03:48.940 --> 00:03:54.560 the state of shame, we just want to hide and run away and we don't take it upon ourselves 50 00:03:54.560 --> 00:03:58.700 to try and make a difference in the world, whether it's the world within the family or 51 00:03:58.700 --> 00:04:04.500 the world more broadly. But guilt, I think, properly managed is a positive contribution 52 00:04:05.160 --> 00:04:06.820 to family life and to society. 53 00:04:08.660 --> 00:04:13.040 A friend of mine, a dear friend, said he wouldn't get up in the morning if it wasn't for guilt, 54 00:04:13.700 --> 00:04:19.140 which I think is a good way to describe parenting. Tasha, speak to us about being on the road 55 00:04:19.140 --> 00:04:24.420 while pregnant and now being on the road with two parents. Is there any shame? Do you, it 56 00:04:24.420 --> 00:04:24.540 would be a good idea to talk about that. 57 00:04:24.540 --> 00:04:26.300 Were you ever made to feel shame in that? 58 00:04:26.540 --> 00:04:33.200 I actually, so often, when I'm finished a show and I'm out meeting the crowd, they're 59 00:04:33.200 --> 00:04:38.660 buying CDs and chatting to me, they say, where are your children? And it started to really 60 00:04:38.660 --> 00:04:42.960 piss me off because they're not asking the male musicians who have children that same 61 00:04:42.960 --> 00:04:46.680 question. So I started saying, oh, they're in the car, they're fine, I left the window 62 00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:54.520 down. Which shut people up pretty fast. But it is hard being away from that. And I think 63 00:05:03.880 --> 00:05:06.460 that's why I start to start to start to start to start to start to start to start to start 64 00:05:06.460 --> 00:05:12.760 to start to start to start to start to start to start to start to start to start to start 65 00:05:12.760 --> 00:05:12.800 to start to start to start to start to start to start to start to start to start to start 66 00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:14.440 start to start to start to start to start to start to start to start to start to start to start 67 00:05:14.440 --> 00:05:19.580 to start to start to start to start to start to start to start to start to start to start to start 68 00:05:19.580 --> 00:05:25.260 them a lot. When they were young I took them with me which was hilarious because 69 00:05:25.260 --> 00:05:29.420 I breastfed them both to 12 to 18 months so yeah. 70 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:36.580 Were you having to time the run so to speak to film them up, pop on stage, come back and be on stage in time? 71 00:05:36.740 --> 00:05:40.480 Yeah, and be off stage in time so I didn't start leaking. Yeah, oversharing a tiny bit. 72 00:05:41.780 --> 00:05:42.680 You're a fair bit of that. 73 00:05:43.640 --> 00:05:54.500 But I had one of them, I think the littlest one, who's up there, he's three, strapped to the front of me in one of those papoose things while I was sound checking 74 00:05:54.500 --> 00:06:07.180 and all these people were walking past and going, and coming in and taking photos of me like it was some sort of strange anomaly to see a parent who's also in a band. 75 00:06:07.280 --> 00:06:09.200 It's like, well you should stop that now. 76 00:06:09.560 --> 00:06:12.480 And you don't think that same guilt? 77 00:06:12.680 --> 00:06:15.960 They're trying to place that same guilt on the male musician? 78 00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:19.240 Oh, absolutely not. In fact I've talked to male musicians about the same thing. 79 00:06:19.380 --> 00:06:26.180 And in fact once I was a mum, every newspaper article about me said, musician mum, mum of two. 80 00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:32.460 It would, even if I'd just released a record, it would talk about my motherhood before my career. 81 00:06:33.220 --> 00:06:33.660 Interesting. 82 00:06:33.720 --> 00:06:40.240 I remember cutting out an article from the paper in which somebody was describing Mick Jagger as a great dad. 83 00:06:40.540 --> 00:06:42.660 And the basis of that was, 84 00:06:42.680 --> 00:06:47.220 I think he'd occasionally written a letter to his kid who lived in another country. 85 00:06:47.440 --> 00:06:48.620 Right, right. 86 00:06:49.640 --> 00:06:50.780 Sent them a lot of money. 87 00:06:51.100 --> 00:06:56.540 Do you think that we're trying to reduce us as parents? 88 00:06:56.660 --> 00:07:00.020 Or are we trying to shame us? 89 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:06.560 We're definitely trying to make us feel guilty when we say, we judge, we were talking a little bit about this earlier, we judge other parents. 90 00:07:06.700 --> 00:07:11.680 Either for coming up to the standards of parenting that we expect as normal. 91 00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:14.100 Or failing to meet those standards. 92 00:07:14.240 --> 00:07:15.360 And do you think that's what's happening there? 93 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:16.100 Very much so. 94 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:18.380 Why are you out at night? You have children. 95 00:07:18.700 --> 00:07:20.000 I'm like, I'm at work. 96 00:07:21.060 --> 00:07:22.760 So we talked a little bit about this too. 97 00:07:22.900 --> 00:07:24.060 About the notion of work. 98 00:07:24.500 --> 00:07:31.620 And for you, when the boys start to comprehend and get onto the swearing. 99 00:07:33.200 --> 00:07:35.440 Comprehend the material that is your work. 100 00:07:35.580 --> 00:07:37.020 I am a little worried about that. 101 00:07:38.040 --> 00:07:40.860 Obviously I put three albums out before I had any children. 102 00:07:40.860 --> 00:07:42.260 Block your ears children. 103 00:07:43.560 --> 00:07:49.960 But my work, my songwriting is very honest and raw. 104 00:07:50.220 --> 00:07:52.720 And I swear a little. 105 00:07:52.880 --> 00:07:53.900 I talk about sex. 106 00:07:54.620 --> 00:07:57.840 I talk about ex-boyfriends. 107 00:07:58.920 --> 00:08:03.160 I am worried about them getting to an age and going, oh mum, ooh. 108 00:08:04.520 --> 00:08:08.080 Do you think that will change their perception of you? 109 00:08:08.740 --> 00:08:10.820 I'm not sure. Possibly. 110 00:08:11.380 --> 00:08:12.160 John will be there. 111 00:08:12.400 --> 00:08:13.480 Yeah. Will you? 112 00:08:13.960 --> 00:08:15.160 Will you see me through it? 113 00:08:15.240 --> 00:08:18.880 I don't know. It's really hard to know what they'll think. 114 00:08:18.980 --> 00:08:20.680 It's also the artistic side of it. 115 00:08:20.760 --> 00:08:23.220 Where I think if my sons grow up to really like rock music. 116 00:08:23.340 --> 00:08:25.600 They're going to be like, mum's music is really daggy. 117 00:08:26.220 --> 00:08:27.320 So there's that too. 118 00:08:28.100 --> 00:08:31.480 Will they have respect for me as an artist? 119 00:08:32.440 --> 00:08:37.140 And do you think that's you feeling any guilt or shame about the work that you do? 120 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:38.020 Well I can't. 121 00:08:38.100 --> 00:08:40.380 I was thinking when you were saying guilt is something. 122 00:08:40.860 --> 00:08:42.460 You can go back and you can correct things. 123 00:08:42.560 --> 00:08:45.660 Where I can't go back and change the records I made before I had children. 124 00:08:47.300 --> 00:08:47.740 Unfortunately. 125 00:08:50.780 --> 00:08:54.140 Most things we feel guilty about we can't change. 126 00:08:54.260 --> 00:08:54.980 We've done them already. 127 00:08:55.100 --> 00:08:55.520 Yeah, we've done them already. 128 00:08:55.580 --> 00:08:56.060 But it's a question of. 129 00:08:56.400 --> 00:08:57.540 How we feel about them. 130 00:08:57.760 --> 00:09:00.380 And also what we do if we've done damage. 131 00:09:00.460 --> 00:09:03.460 I mean I don't think what you're talking about has done any damage to your children. 132 00:09:03.560 --> 00:09:06.960 But if we've done something that's done damage to our children. 133 00:09:07.020 --> 00:09:08.940 Then to make a. 134 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:10.880 Make reparation. 135 00:09:10.900 --> 00:09:13.460 And reparation isn't undoing the damage we've done. 136 00:09:13.560 --> 00:09:14.660 It's doing something different. 137 00:09:15.320 --> 00:09:16.620 And undertaking to change. 138 00:09:16.820 --> 00:09:20.840 And you know it's not just like the man who's belted his wife and then gives her a bunch of flowers. 139 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:22.660 Like it's got to be a genuine. 140 00:09:23.620 --> 00:09:26.800 You know acceptance of responsibility for what you've done. 141 00:09:27.140 --> 00:09:30.380 And somehow finding a way to make it good. 142 00:09:30.400 --> 00:09:32.500 An equivalent correction of it. 143 00:09:32.540 --> 00:09:34.820 Not just some kind of tokenistic apology. 144 00:09:36.160 --> 00:09:38.080 Have you got an example of that John? 145 00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:40.300 That you've come to through your work practice? 146 00:09:41.040 --> 00:09:41.520 Well. 147 00:09:42.820 --> 00:09:45.800 I mean I guess with the parents I work with. 148 00:09:45.880 --> 00:09:48.440 Who are you know very transgressive. 149 00:09:48.440 --> 00:09:50.680 They've done things that they should feel guilty about. 150 00:09:50.780 --> 00:09:54.160 These are parents whose infants have been removed from their care. 151 00:09:55.340 --> 00:09:59.760 And you know the reparation they do. 152 00:09:59.920 --> 00:10:04.940 Is by having the courage to acknowledge what they've done. 153 00:10:05.040 --> 00:10:06.420 And what they've done has been wrong. 154 00:10:06.420 --> 00:10:11.400 And to undertake the painful process of changing as a person. 155 00:10:11.820 --> 00:10:14.240 And recognising the need to change as a person. 156 00:10:14.280 --> 00:10:17.460 Before they can be trusted to have their children back in their care. 157 00:10:18.020 --> 00:10:21.240 And you know some people do that with amazing courage. 158 00:10:21.340 --> 00:10:25.220 People who have got into that predicament because of the way they've been treated as children. 159 00:10:26.040 --> 00:10:31.180 But are prepared to take the stand to break that cycle of repeated abuse. 160 00:10:31.780 --> 00:10:36.140 Do you think there's a moment where you have to actually encourage feelings of guilt? 161 00:10:36.140 --> 00:10:37.580 In order to understand behaviour? 162 00:10:38.420 --> 00:10:42.860 Well I think you know the notion of confronting people with what they've done wrong. 163 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:44.800 Can go in one of two ways. 164 00:10:44.900 --> 00:10:49.200 It can be a process of bringing people face to face. 165 00:10:49.300 --> 00:10:51.520 Making them face up to what they've done. 166 00:10:51.680 --> 00:10:56.000 Which is I'd argue potentially a constructive process. 167 00:10:56.560 --> 00:11:02.420 Or there's the version of confrontation which involves rubbing somebody's nose in what they've done. 168 00:11:02.640 --> 00:11:03.700 Which is shaming. 169 00:11:03.860 --> 00:11:06.020 And I would argue usually destructive. 170 00:11:06.140 --> 00:11:09.240 And only reinforces the bad behaviour. 171 00:11:09.560 --> 00:11:13.240 So in my work that's what I'm trying to do. 172 00:11:13.320 --> 00:11:17.780 Bring people face to face with things that they shouldn't have done. 173 00:11:17.940 --> 00:11:23.740 And also helping them to come face to face with things that shouldn't have been done to them. 174 00:11:24.100 --> 00:11:27.620 And not to feel shamed because they've been abused. 175 00:11:27.760 --> 00:11:30.860 Or because they've grown up in poverty or whatever it is. 176 00:11:31.280 --> 00:11:33.120 It's a very complex set of emotions. 177 00:11:33.480 --> 00:11:35.580 And sometimes parental guilt is. 178 00:11:36.140 --> 00:11:36.420 And I think that's what we've done. 179 00:11:36.420 --> 00:11:37.000 We've talked about simple things. 180 00:11:37.280 --> 00:11:38.520 We've talked about swearing. 181 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:47.600 At what point do we as a parent or do we as a community say that it's okay to swear in front of a child or allow the child to swear? 182 00:11:47.720 --> 00:11:49.600 So Paul had some interesting takes on this. 183 00:11:49.680 --> 00:11:56.320 Yeah well I'm firmly of the opinion that swearing is a fundamental part of Australian culture. 184 00:11:56.560 --> 00:12:01.320 And if you can't swear effectively you are socially compromised. 185 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:08.200 I think it's therefore the responsibility of the parents to train their children in how to swear effectively. 186 00:12:08.620 --> 00:12:09.700 Let's face it. 187 00:12:09.800 --> 00:12:13.700 Have you ever been confronted by someone who's gone, oh bloody bugger. 188 00:12:13.740 --> 00:12:17.460 I mean you can dismiss them out of hand because they can't swear effectively. 189 00:12:18.600 --> 00:12:29.740 Then the question comes what is an appropriate age to introduce your child to bottom and then bum and work your way up. 190 00:12:29.780 --> 00:12:30.220 Oh shit. 191 00:12:30.220 --> 00:12:32.540 And that probably cuts into about six doesn't it. 192 00:12:32.780 --> 00:12:34.840 And then you go up the scale from there. 193 00:12:35.180 --> 00:12:38.740 I've actually taken the complete opposite approach. 194 00:12:40.760 --> 00:12:49.140 There's no such thing as age appropriateness in this field because sooner or later my child is going to be exposed to these words. 195 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:51.440 So we may as well start out from day one. 196 00:12:52.860 --> 00:12:55.180 Let's talk about felch. 197 00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:59.280 Let's talk about the most obscene words that you can come up with. 198 00:12:59.440 --> 00:13:00.200 And two. 199 00:13:00.220 --> 00:13:02.180 Let's talk about how you use them effectively. 200 00:13:02.640 --> 00:13:04.020 When you use them. 201 00:13:04.120 --> 00:13:05.540 When it's appropriate to swear. 202 00:13:05.660 --> 00:13:07.120 When it's not appropriate to swear. 203 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:13.100 And the amount of guilt that I have had to endure from his mother. 204 00:13:14.740 --> 00:13:17.220 Because this is all seen as age inappropriate. 205 00:13:18.820 --> 00:13:25.740 I think the whole concept of guilt really comes around the transgression of a law. 206 00:13:25.980 --> 00:13:27.720 The transgression of a norm. 207 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:28.820 And so. 208 00:13:28.820 --> 00:13:31.520 Whenever you try and do something a little bit different. 209 00:13:31.580 --> 00:13:34.780 Such as my approach to teaching my son how to swear. 210 00:13:36.120 --> 00:13:43.540 That's when parental guilt is either you bring it on yourself or it's imposed upon you from outside. 211 00:13:44.180 --> 00:13:45.320 You should run classes. 212 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:47.140 For kids. 213 00:13:47.340 --> 00:13:47.540 Can I? 214 00:13:47.660 --> 00:13:48.120 Swearing classes. 215 00:13:48.400 --> 00:13:50.280 Swearing 101 for the five year olds. 216 00:13:50.520 --> 00:13:51.740 But transgression of norms. 217 00:13:51.880 --> 00:13:53.900 I mean I think it's a really important issue isn't it. 218 00:13:53.940 --> 00:13:57.440 Because there are some norms that should be transgressed and others that shouldn't. 219 00:13:57.580 --> 00:13:57.840 So. 220 00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:04.840 We should feel guilty in my sense of positive guilt about transgressing norms that we recognise shouldn't be transgressed. 221 00:14:05.580 --> 00:14:12.840 But if we're being sort of little revolutionaries in terms of transgressing norms that should be broken down. 222 00:14:13.040 --> 00:14:15.180 Then that's of course for celebration not guilt. 223 00:14:15.460 --> 00:14:22.240 And the whole question around bringing up another human being into this society. 224 00:14:23.200 --> 00:14:26.220 The best place to live your life is on the edge. 225 00:14:26.340 --> 00:14:27.420 It's at those boundaries. 226 00:14:27.420 --> 00:14:33.320 And more often than not I've found in life the best way to find the boundaries is in your rear vision mirror. 227 00:14:33.520 --> 00:14:38.640 It's when you go over the boundaries and you can stop and say okay sorry I have gone too far. 228 00:14:39.460 --> 00:14:40.860 And you can wind it back. 229 00:14:41.180 --> 00:14:43.340 But unless you're living life on the edge. 230 00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:46.840 Unless you're encouraging your kids to push boundaries. 231 00:14:46.980 --> 00:14:48.300 To explore boundaries. 232 00:14:48.460 --> 00:14:49.600 To get out there and do. 233 00:14:49.780 --> 00:14:51.860 They're going to lead very boring lives. 234 00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:55.900 And then that's when parental guilt should come in. 235 00:14:56.040 --> 00:14:57.180 How dare you. 236 00:14:57.180 --> 00:14:58.820 Bring your child up and be boring. 237 00:14:59.920 --> 00:15:03.880 When my big boy was two he had a truck that used to go 238 00:15:09.400 --> 00:15:13.960 And I'd be like oh sweetie does it not go broom? 239 00:15:14.120 --> 00:15:14.700 No mummy. 240 00:15:16.420 --> 00:15:18.580 So he was a little two year old rebel. 241 00:15:19.100 --> 00:15:20.560 I love it. 242 00:15:20.880 --> 00:15:25.420 Another classic example with my son Chester. 243 00:15:26.460 --> 00:15:26.980 Again, 244 00:15:26.980 --> 00:15:28.900 again, around sense of humour. 245 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:32.080 And there's loads... 246 00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:33.700 It's such a changing field, 247 00:15:34.500 --> 00:15:37.140 what is appropriate at what age to introduce your son to. 248 00:15:37.220 --> 00:15:39.840 So I've just ignored all of that, thrown everything at him. 249 00:15:40.400 --> 00:15:42.460 And, you know, he was word perfect 250 00:15:42.460 --> 00:15:45.520 on all of the Monty Python films before he was seven. 251 00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:50.080 And it came back to bite me somewhat 252 00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:52.160 when I took him to Antarctica, 253 00:15:52.260 --> 00:15:54.420 and on the way through in Buenos Aires, 254 00:15:54.500 --> 00:15:55.320 we had a day over, 255 00:15:56.980 --> 00:16:00.160 and so I took him just showing the sights around Buenos Aires, 256 00:16:00.640 --> 00:16:02.560 and we're in the San Martín Cathedral, 257 00:16:02.760 --> 00:16:05.400 which is the main cathedral for the whole of Argentina, 258 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:08.280 a very sacred place, and it was very quiet. 259 00:16:08.340 --> 00:16:10.120 There was a mass going on down the other end, 260 00:16:10.160 --> 00:16:11.940 so everyone was being respectful and quiet. 261 00:16:12.280 --> 00:16:14.880 And at the top of his voice, he points to Jesus on the cross 262 00:16:14.880 --> 00:16:16.140 and goes, look, Daddy, it's Brian! 263 00:16:18.500 --> 00:16:21.000 And then to try and extricate me 264 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:22.700 from under the pew where I was hiding, 265 00:16:22.780 --> 00:16:24.400 he said, don't worry, Dad, they don't understand. 266 00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:25.400 They only speak gibberish. 267 00:16:26.260 --> 00:16:26.660 Now... 268 00:16:27.820 --> 00:16:31.840 Now, a number of times when I've told those stories, 269 00:16:31.920 --> 00:16:37.420 that some more pious than rational people 270 00:16:37.420 --> 00:16:38.840 have come back to me and said, 271 00:16:38.920 --> 00:16:40.080 well, obviously, you know, 272 00:16:40.880 --> 00:16:44.160 what appalling attitudes for an eight-year-old to have. 273 00:16:44.300 --> 00:16:46.920 And it's like, it's an eight-year-old kid. 274 00:16:47.580 --> 00:16:51.440 You know, don't you go imposing your adult values 275 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:52.820 on my eight-year-old kid. 276 00:16:52.940 --> 00:16:55.640 He made a great and very humorous association. 277 00:16:56.880 --> 00:16:58.620 Give him compliments for that. 278 00:16:58.740 --> 00:16:58.820 Yeah. 279 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:02.020 So it feels like we're constantly, 280 00:17:02.900 --> 00:17:04.160 through putting guilt on others, 281 00:17:04.180 --> 00:17:05.980 trying to bring each other down 282 00:17:05.980 --> 00:17:09.300 rather than lift each other up in parenting. 283 00:17:09.620 --> 00:17:12.680 So how do we balance that, fuck you, 284 00:17:13.620 --> 00:17:16.580 my kid's okay, with, oh, you're right, 285 00:17:16.660 --> 00:17:18.600 I've overstepped that boundary. 286 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:20.200 How do we find that balance as a parent? 287 00:17:20.520 --> 00:17:23.600 Full declaration, I have a 13-year-old daughter 288 00:17:23.600 --> 00:17:25.320 who is fully immersed as a teenager. 289 00:17:25.820 --> 00:17:26.340 And... 290 00:17:26.340 --> 00:17:29.200 And a 10-year-old son who I've abandoned soccer this morning. 291 00:17:29.220 --> 00:17:30.580 He said, Mum, will you watch me play? 292 00:17:30.660 --> 00:17:31.860 And I said, no, honey, I won't. 293 00:17:32.840 --> 00:17:34.160 I've got no guilt whatsoever. 294 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:36.800 I had the perfect excuse to be here today. 295 00:17:37.040 --> 00:17:37.440 So... 296 00:17:40.780 --> 00:17:43.980 So how do we balance those feelings of guilt? 297 00:17:44.040 --> 00:17:46.160 I should be there watching him and cheering him on, 298 00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:49.320 and yet I am still a full and rich human because I'm here. 299 00:17:49.520 --> 00:17:50.740 Which is important for your children. 300 00:17:51.340 --> 00:17:54.080 I think that particularly because I have sons, 301 00:17:54.820 --> 00:17:56.320 that I think it's really important. 302 00:17:56.320 --> 00:17:59.320 It's really important for them to see a woman with a career. 303 00:17:59.900 --> 00:18:02.600 As much as it would be nice to be home with them more, 304 00:18:02.760 --> 00:18:03.300 and I... 305 00:18:03.980 --> 00:18:06.320 Neither of my children have ever actually been in childcare. 306 00:18:06.700 --> 00:18:08.400 Because the great thing about being a musician 307 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:09.420 is you work on the weekends. 308 00:18:10.380 --> 00:18:13.980 So I have actually had a lot of time with my kids. 309 00:18:14.800 --> 00:18:16.100 I'm often away on the weekends, 310 00:18:16.380 --> 00:18:21.240 but I'm there Monday to Thursday, and some weekends. 311 00:18:22.420 --> 00:18:24.100 And I also have a very supportive family 312 00:18:24.100 --> 00:18:25.220 who look after my kids a lot. 313 00:18:25.640 --> 00:18:26.080 So... 314 00:18:26.080 --> 00:18:26.300 So... 315 00:18:26.320 --> 00:18:26.860 I want them... 316 00:18:26.860 --> 00:18:28.020 I want them to go, 317 00:18:28.060 --> 00:18:29.240 there's my mummy on the telly. 318 00:18:29.660 --> 00:18:31.260 I want them to feel proud of me 319 00:18:31.260 --> 00:18:34.900 and to see women having a life outside of the home. 320 00:18:35.520 --> 00:18:36.400 And a work ethic. 321 00:18:36.620 --> 00:18:36.860 Yeah. 322 00:18:37.140 --> 00:18:38.620 Because actually you're setting a standard. 323 00:18:38.700 --> 00:18:38.900 Yeah. 324 00:18:39.160 --> 00:18:39.740 You're saying, 325 00:18:39.860 --> 00:18:42.280 this is the expectation I have of you. 326 00:18:42.360 --> 00:18:42.620 Yeah. 327 00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:44.240 This is how hard I want you to work. 328 00:18:44.600 --> 00:18:46.200 Because what you do is hard. 329 00:18:46.380 --> 00:18:46.600 Yeah. 330 00:18:47.340 --> 00:18:51.140 I also find it hard to tell people about being a parent, 331 00:18:51.180 --> 00:18:52.500 particularly of small ones. 332 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:55.140 It's boring sometimes. 333 00:18:55.380 --> 00:18:56.220 It's monotonous. 334 00:18:56.320 --> 00:18:56.340 Yes. 335 00:18:56.700 --> 00:18:58.720 Because they're always angels, aren't they? 336 00:18:59.120 --> 00:18:59.560 Always. 337 00:18:59.660 --> 00:19:02.620 What gorgeous, intelligent child I've got. 338 00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:03.540 Well, yours is all right. 339 00:19:04.080 --> 00:19:04.660 You know. 340 00:19:05.940 --> 00:19:09.140 But we're made to feel guilty about even having those feelings. 341 00:19:09.220 --> 00:19:09.600 Yeah. 342 00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:10.420 As a parent. 343 00:19:11.100 --> 00:19:13.180 John, you're in quite a different world. 344 00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:15.340 So, Paul, your son is 12. 345 00:19:15.620 --> 00:19:15.940 Yep. 346 00:19:16.020 --> 00:19:16.680 Seven and three. 347 00:19:16.760 --> 00:19:17.100 Seven and three. 348 00:19:17.100 --> 00:19:17.660 Ten and 13. 349 00:19:17.940 --> 00:19:19.280 You're all very different world. 350 00:19:19.500 --> 00:19:20.360 Where are your children? 351 00:19:23.420 --> 00:19:24.620 Stand and speak. 352 00:19:24.860 --> 00:19:25.020 No. 353 00:19:26.320 --> 00:19:26.820 Four to 31. 354 00:19:26.940 --> 00:19:27.440 Is that right? 355 00:19:27.620 --> 00:19:31.120 So, your guilt life cycle is in a different place now. 356 00:19:32.120 --> 00:19:34.560 Hopefully, my guilt has passed me by. 357 00:19:34.760 --> 00:19:35.080 Yeah. 358 00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:36.960 The damage is done now. 359 00:19:37.560 --> 00:19:38.680 Well and truly done. 360 00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:42.480 So, do you think there is a period in which we no longer feel guilty as parents? 361 00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:46.480 Well, it depends whether we've got grounds to feel guilt. 362 00:19:46.620 --> 00:19:50.300 I mean, you know, I think some people have done things 363 00:19:50.300 --> 00:19:52.360 that they should feel guilty about for the rest of their lives. 364 00:19:53.340 --> 00:19:55.020 And we have to face that. 365 00:19:55.100 --> 00:19:55.600 I mean, we're... 366 00:19:55.600 --> 00:19:58.020 We're talking at the edges of them. 367 00:19:58.080 --> 00:20:01.820 At the kind of privileged edge of parenting at the moment. 368 00:20:03.060 --> 00:20:08.000 We're not talking about people who've really seriously damaged their children, 369 00:20:08.180 --> 00:20:09.500 sometimes deliberately. 370 00:20:09.860 --> 00:20:14.740 So, that's a different field of parental guilt. 371 00:20:17.420 --> 00:20:20.280 But, you know, on the whole, 372 00:20:20.420 --> 00:20:24.520 we're self-serving in our way of regarding ourselves. 373 00:20:24.660 --> 00:20:25.580 So, if we feel... 374 00:20:25.600 --> 00:20:30.820 a tinge of guilt that's probably justified and it's probably justified at least that we reflect 375 00:20:30.820 --> 00:20:37.300 on that and wonder about it and you know is there an opportunity to make good some of the stuff 376 00:20:37.300 --> 00:20:42.300 we've done in the next generation or is there an opportunity to make it good with other people in 377 00:20:42.300 --> 00:20:50.700 the community because you know focusing all of our energy on our own families is a is is in a way a 378 00:20:50.700 --> 00:20:58.040 form of justified selfishness you know like family first is really just a code way of saying me first 379 00:20:59.280 --> 00:21:03.200 um i'm sure where i'm going with this sound like a political diatribe 380 00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:12.020 your first two concepts though is absolving guilt and also anticipatory guilt we touched 381 00:21:12.020 --> 00:21:18.400 on those a little bit too when we spoke earlier so um absolving ourselves we kind of want to do 382 00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:20.680 that because we feel some shame about some things we want to do 383 00:21:20.680 --> 00:21:26.660 sometimes that's okay but sometimes you've indicated it's not is that the area that you 384 00:21:26.660 --> 00:21:34.060 tend to be working in well i think if we if if we don't take responsibility for things that we've 385 00:21:34.060 --> 00:21:41.020 done wrong then we're diminished as individuals and if we don't do it as a society as we can see 386 00:21:41.020 --> 00:21:49.460 in australian society all the time we're diminished as a society so you know if john howard had felt 387 00:21:49.460 --> 00:21:50.660 a bit more guilt that would have been a bit more of a guilt i think that's a good point 388 00:21:50.660 --> 00:21:51.140 i think that's a good point i think that's a good point 389 00:21:51.140 --> 00:21:51.560 yeah 390 00:21:58.560 --> 00:22:02.340 um one of the other things we were talking about and you've touched on this is about 391 00:22:02.340 --> 00:22:09.180 good guilt and bad guilt what would be some symptoms for us as parents about bad guilt 392 00:22:09.180 --> 00:22:19.260 i think when we're talking around the idea of guilt being used as a mechanism to control 393 00:22:19.260 --> 00:22:20.640 to confront us and to confront us and to confront us and to confront us and to confront us and to confront us 394 00:22:20.660 --> 00:22:30.320 conform to societal norms. I think that with the non-conformist generations that have sprung 395 00:22:30.320 --> 00:22:37.520 up since the Second World War, I don't think that that's particularly constructive guilt. 396 00:22:38.840 --> 00:22:45.800 Those are guilts that need to be challenged and torn down and dismissed. But then when 397 00:22:45.800 --> 00:23:00.860 you talk about guilts that are imposed or derived from the appropriate training and 398 00:23:00.860 --> 00:23:08.600 behaviour of your child, for instance, anyone who's suffering parental guilt around the 399 00:23:08.600 --> 00:23:15.460 issue of vaccination. And why should I feel guilty? 400 00:23:15.520 --> 00:23:15.780 Because I'm a child. 401 00:23:15.780 --> 00:23:23.160