WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.360 Professor Noora Erekat, I'm Peter Mez and it's my pleasure to chair this session with you. 2 00:00:05.580 --> 00:00:09.820 So our two speakers this morning are immediately on my left, Dr Amrita Malhi, 3 00:00:09.980 --> 00:00:15.140 and further on the edge, Professor Noora Erekat. Amrita is a visiting fellow at the ANU 4 00:00:15.140 --> 00:00:19.520 and a researcher, writer and advisor on the histories and politics of Muslim movements 5 00:00:19.520 --> 00:00:24.240 in Southeast Asia, especially Malaysia. And she works on contemporary Australian 6 00:00:24.240 --> 00:00:29.300 cultural outlooks on our own diversity and our place in a diverse Asia. 7 00:00:29.300 --> 00:00:33.740 Noora, who you may have heard last night delivering the Edward Said Memorial Lecture, 8 00:00:34.420 --> 00:00:39.620 is Assistant Professor Researching Humanitarian and Refugee Law at George Mason University 9 00:00:40.400 --> 00:00:45.680 in the US. She's a human rights lawyer, a writer, an activist, co-founder and editor, 10 00:00:46.300 --> 00:00:53.340 co-founding editor of the online magazine Jedaliya, which provides insight, critical analysis, 11 00:00:53.700 --> 00:00:57.620 reporting and scholarship on events in the Middle East. Does so in four languages, 12 00:00:57.860 --> 00:00:59.180 Arabic, French, English. 13 00:00:59.300 --> 00:01:03.860 Turkish and Noora's book, Justice for Some, Law in the Question of Palestine, 14 00:01:04.060 --> 00:01:07.560 will be published next year. Please join me in making them welcome. 15 00:01:09.760 --> 00:01:14.140 So this will be a conversation. Our topic this morning is good things sometimes happen. 16 00:01:14.220 --> 00:01:16.680 It's framed around the future of both Malaysia and Palestine. 17 00:01:17.060 --> 00:01:21.920 And when I read the title, I thought immediately of two good things that happened that I would 18 00:01:21.920 --> 00:01:28.540 never have predicted. The first was the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989. And I'd spent almost 19 00:01:29.300 --> 00:01:33.220 three years of the 1980s living in what was then West Germany, much of that time spent 20 00:01:33.220 --> 00:01:39.140 studying politics. And I never anticipated the reunification of the two Germanys. Ten 21 00:01:39.140 --> 00:01:44.640 years later, in 1999, Indonesia relinquished its control over East Timor. I'd spent a lot 22 00:01:44.640 --> 00:01:50.300 of that decade reporting on Indonesia and East Timor for the ABC, Asia generally, but 23 00:01:50.300 --> 00:01:54.780 East Timor and Indonesia were particular interests of mine. And I didn't think East Timor would 24 00:01:54.780 --> 00:01:59.280 ever become independent. I didn't think that was a realistic possibility, with or without 25 00:01:59.300 --> 00:02:05.540 Suharto as president of Jakarta. Now, these events took me by surprise. As I say, that might 26 00:02:05.540 --> 00:02:11.180 just reveal how bad I am as a political analyst and a reporter. But I prefer to think it tells 27 00:02:11.180 --> 00:02:16.020 us that good things can sometimes happen, that events can conspire to create unexpected 28 00:02:16.020 --> 00:02:21.820 opportunities. To misquote Shakespeare, a tide in human affairs that taken at the flood 29 00:02:21.820 --> 00:02:27.960 leads on to fortune. So I'm going to start by asking Amrita whether the success of the 30 00:02:27.960 --> 00:02:29.280 opposition Harapanu, which is the most important, is a success or a failure. And I'm going to 31 00:02:29.300 --> 00:02:30.060 set out three و 32 00:02:44.580 --> 00:02:50.240 In the return of the 92-year-old Mahathir Mohamad, does this fall into the category of 33 00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:51.640 good things sometimes happen? 34 00:02:53.480 --> 00:02:56.760 Well, that's a serious intro and a serious question. 35 00:02:57.580 --> 00:03:02.980 I think that there are quite a lot of things to say about this election result. 36 00:03:03.340 --> 00:03:09.120 Certainly it seemed to many Australian observers and many observers around the region as sudden 37 00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:10.620 as the Berlin Wall suddenly collapsing. 38 00:03:10.620 --> 00:03:16.080 And the amount of, I think, scrambling is an uncharitable way to put it, but the amount 39 00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:21.020 of having to quickly catch up and quickly explain how this could have happened really 40 00:03:21.020 --> 00:03:24.660 has kept my schedule pretty busy since the 9th of May. 41 00:03:25.980 --> 00:03:27.420 It is a good thing. 42 00:03:27.500 --> 00:03:33.880 Look, I think unequivocally the fact that an electoral system that was designed to keep 43 00:03:33.880 --> 00:03:39.800 a certain ruling coalition in power for as long as it managed to actually do that, it's 44 00:03:39.800 --> 00:03:40.220 a good thing. 45 00:03:40.260 --> 00:03:40.600 It was awesome. 46 00:03:40.600 --> 00:03:42.800 It was overwhelmed by a surge of opposition support. 47 00:03:43.840 --> 00:03:50.360 It was getting to the point where opposition support was building so far that they could 48 00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:51.320 even win the popular vote. 49 00:03:51.460 --> 00:03:57.480 So in the 2013 election, this coalition with a previous name and under the leadership of 50 00:03:57.480 --> 00:04:00.260 Anwar Ibrahim almost won. 51 00:04:00.420 --> 00:04:01.420 It won the popular vote. 52 00:04:01.520 --> 00:04:05.120 It didn't win the number of seats it needed to win because of the way the system has worked 53 00:04:05.120 --> 00:04:09.320 with the gerrymander and the malapportionment that delivers the result that we've seen again 54 00:04:09.320 --> 00:04:10.400 and again for 60 years. 55 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:14.640 But this time around they've managed to actually craft a campaign that was multiracial in its 56 00:04:14.640 --> 00:04:15.020 character. 57 00:04:15.500 --> 00:04:21.120 At the same time was also able to kind of speak across the various racial divides and 58 00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:25.460 the religious divide in Malaysia and was able to actually mobilize to the point where it 59 00:04:25.460 --> 00:04:31.800 could overcome an electoral system that was not designed to accommodate an actual election 60 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:33.220 loss for Barisan National. 61 00:04:33.740 --> 00:04:35.300 And nevertheless it's delivered one. 62 00:04:35.440 --> 00:04:36.520 So is that a good thing? 63 00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:38.260 I think in itself it is a good thing. 64 00:04:38.300 --> 00:04:40.140 I think in itself it is an advance. 65 00:04:40.200 --> 00:04:40.380 So I think it's a good thing. 66 00:04:40.400 --> 00:04:40.600 It's an advance. 67 00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:46.580 Where we'll go now in terms of the Malaysian situation I think is open for debate but let's 68 00:04:46.580 --> 00:04:47.920 call it a good thing for now. 69 00:04:48.220 --> 00:04:56.260 It's interesting because what this overturning of 60 years of UMNO-led rule has done is return 70 00:04:56.260 --> 00:05:03.080 to power the most dominant figure in the previous government, Dr. Mahathir Mohamad, who is now 71 00:05:03.080 --> 00:05:08.900 93 and who is, well, I mean throughout my time in reporting on Southeast Asia when he 72 00:05:08.900 --> 00:05:09.600 was prime minister. 73 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:14.920 He was a fairly authoritarian figure, jailing people under internal security acts, using 74 00:05:14.920 --> 00:05:20.700 in fact the political mechanics that you were talking about of gerrymandered electorates 75 00:05:20.700 --> 00:05:23.420 and so on to stay in power himself and so on. 76 00:05:23.480 --> 00:05:30.200 So we have this irony that this hope and overturning of an old system has returned to power a very 77 00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:33.180 establishment figure if you like. 78 00:05:33.340 --> 00:05:33.420 Yes. 79 00:05:33.420 --> 00:05:34.100 No, it has. 80 00:05:34.380 --> 00:05:37.680 And this is something that I think we have to account for in terms of how we view this 81 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:38.600 change. 82 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:42.000 So on the one hand I think there is every reason for some optimism. 83 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:43.900 On the other, yeah, you're right. 84 00:05:44.100 --> 00:05:48.600 I mean what is going to happen now, it is basically a rearranging of national elites 85 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:49.240 in a way. 86 00:05:49.880 --> 00:05:54.580 And of course those very same powers have been used against Anwar Ibrahim by Mahathir 87 00:05:54.580 --> 00:05:54.880 himself. 88 00:05:55.040 --> 00:05:57.880 Now of course they're working together in the new government. 89 00:05:58.100 --> 00:06:03.180 Anwar himself of course not elected because he was in prison but is out and about on speaking 90 00:06:03.180 --> 00:06:08.380 tours and trying to do whatever he can to not get in the way yet support. 91 00:06:08.600 --> 00:06:09.280 But at the same time. 92 00:06:10.020 --> 00:06:12.920 So what does it mean, the fact that Mahathir is back in power? 93 00:06:13.080 --> 00:06:14.960 So of course he was in there for like 22 years. 94 00:06:15.080 --> 00:06:16.840 He stepped down in 2003. 95 00:06:18.320 --> 00:06:20.740 Handpicked Najib himself as he will even say. 96 00:06:21.280 --> 00:06:27.440 So handpicked a successor who took things so far in terms of the grand corruption that 97 00:06:27.440 --> 00:06:31.240 he seems to have presided over, the 1MDB scandal that you all will have heard of even if it's 98 00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:35.600 vague and not well understood because it is highly complicated. 99 00:06:35.880 --> 00:06:38.540 It has nevertheless been covered in the Australian media. 100 00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:39.720 So you'll have heard of it. 101 00:06:40.060 --> 00:06:47.700 But it went so far that now we have an old I guess authoritarian coming forward and saying 102 00:06:47.700 --> 00:06:48.960 we've got to dial this back. 103 00:06:49.260 --> 00:06:50.800 It's gone further than I ever wanted. 104 00:06:51.460 --> 00:06:52.980 He's issued a series of apologies. 105 00:06:53.380 --> 00:06:56.880 He's been in tears in his campaign materials saying we've got to pull this back. 106 00:06:57.360 --> 00:07:02.880 And part of what he's been arguing I think is that you know Malaysia used to have, it 107 00:07:02.880 --> 00:07:04.720 used to occupy a positive place in the world. 108 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:08.560 It used to be viewed as a great moderate Muslim power. 109 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:10.420 It used to be viewed as a great moderate Muslim power in Southeast Asia. 110 00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:15.480 I mean not a great power but you know a great example of how you can run a society that is 111 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:16.860 you know very diverse. 112 00:07:17.240 --> 00:07:19.360 And tolerant and multiracial. 113 00:07:19.580 --> 00:07:19.700 Exactly. 114 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:24.620 And so you know the argument was now we've got to a point where with this huge debt caused 115 00:07:24.620 --> 00:07:28.860 by this corruption scandal the only way the government can stay in power is by pressing 116 00:07:28.860 --> 00:07:33.560 that button that leads to kind of racial and religious discord every single time. 117 00:07:33.660 --> 00:07:34.400 So let's pull it back. 118 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:38.100 Let's form a, you know get together in a multiracial coalition. 119 00:07:38.560 --> 00:07:39.400 Let's reform institutions. 120 00:07:39.580 --> 00:07:41.500 So the talk now is of two years of reform. 121 00:07:41.940 --> 00:07:43.400 To make things work again. 122 00:07:43.480 --> 00:07:44.280 To reduce the debt. 123 00:07:44.340 --> 00:07:46.520 To cut government spending to whatever extent is required. 124 00:07:46.900 --> 00:07:51.680 To reframe the way Malaysia is relating to the nations around it including China and 125 00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:52.020 the US. 126 00:07:52.080 --> 00:07:53.660 Of course the two great powers in the region. 127 00:07:54.440 --> 00:08:00.240 And to kind of restore Malaysia's capacity to be seen as a success and to be a success. 128 00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:02.240 So does that lead to democratic reform? 129 00:08:02.580 --> 00:08:03.360 It may. 130 00:08:04.040 --> 00:08:06.800 And I think it's important to acknowledge the potential. 131 00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:10.100 Where it will go you know as I said remains open. 132 00:08:10.260 --> 00:08:18.900 So Nora it's hard to see, to take this idea of good things sometimes happen and pick any 133 00:08:18.900 --> 00:08:22.360 events in Palestine that we could say here's a good thing that happened. 134 00:08:22.700 --> 00:08:29.980 Do you see, do you see hope of where a good thing could happen in Palestine and what that 135 00:08:29.980 --> 00:08:30.380 might be? 136 00:08:31.660 --> 00:08:32.140 Absolutely. 137 00:08:32.340 --> 00:08:34.600 First of all I want to say good morning and thank you so much. 138 00:08:34.700 --> 00:08:35.900 I like all of you. 139 00:08:35.900 --> 00:08:37.740 I'm enthralled in this conversation. 140 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:39.620 I felt like I was in the audience just listening. 141 00:08:39.800 --> 00:08:46.380 Oh wow all of this is happening in Malaysia and things as you started out by telling us 142 00:08:46.380 --> 00:08:48.260 that we just couldn't expect. 143 00:08:48.680 --> 00:08:52.040 You know there's so many things in the world that actually change the course of history 144 00:08:52.680 --> 00:08:59.620 that even political scientists who are trained on using you know quantitative methods and 145 00:08:59.620 --> 00:09:03.700 scientific methods to predict the future have been unable to anticipate. 146 00:09:03.780 --> 00:09:05.320 The Arab uprisings. 147 00:09:05.320 --> 00:09:06.560 The Arab uprisings are a case in point. 148 00:09:06.960 --> 00:09:18.800 Nobody imagined, nobody imagined that the self-immolation of a grocery vendor in Tunisia would lead 149 00:09:18.800 --> 00:09:26.240 to a massive uprising across the Arab world in response to dictatorships that once represented 150 00:09:26.880 --> 00:09:27.960 a post-colonial future. 151 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:32.840 And so those kinds of things that you just cannot anticipate. 152 00:09:33.160 --> 00:09:34.700 And so much of the work. 153 00:09:34.760 --> 00:09:35.300 And that I've done. 154 00:09:35.320 --> 00:09:38.400 And I do on Palestine and on Palestinian human rights. 155 00:09:38.620 --> 00:09:42.300 The question I get most often is so what is the answer? 156 00:09:42.540 --> 00:09:44.180 What is you know what is next? 157 00:09:44.280 --> 00:09:44.960 What is the solution? 158 00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:45.680 Da 159 00:09:45.780 --> 00:09:50.420 And I can't help but answer in the same way of saying we don't know. 160 00:09:50.780 --> 00:09:56.020 All we know is that there are multiple vectors that are constantly operative. 161 00:09:56.280 --> 00:10:03.860 And those vectors have been unceasing in the form of resistance, in the form of resilience, 162 00:10:03.860 --> 00:10:10.140 that at some point they will converge to produce an alternative future. 163 00:10:10.440 --> 00:10:14.000 So what are some of those vectors that we can turn to and actually take a tremendous 164 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:14.860 amount of hope from? 165 00:10:15.020 --> 00:10:20.480 So much of what we see unfortunately media coverage, and this is the issue with media, 166 00:10:20.660 --> 00:10:26.640 what becomes interesting and exciting is the sensationalist, the grotesque, the war, the 167 00:10:26.640 --> 00:10:29.240 blood, the violence, an angry face. 168 00:10:29.460 --> 00:10:33.840 You rarely get the stories, for example, of what is happening in the Arab world. 169 00:10:33.860 --> 00:10:40.700 You know, women teaching future generations in their homes because their school has been 170 00:10:40.700 --> 00:10:41.320 shut down. 171 00:10:41.540 --> 00:10:47.600 Or actually watching children making connections with one another across borders. 172 00:10:47.780 --> 00:10:52.660 Or watching Palestinians in the diaspora learn English from their brothers and sisters in 173 00:10:52.660 --> 00:10:54.480 the Gaza strip over the internet. 174 00:10:54.740 --> 00:11:00.680 You know, these things that represent how people have remained alive against all odds. 175 00:11:00.880 --> 00:11:03.840 And so here, you know, I've taken the greatest inspiration from the 176 00:11:03.860 --> 00:11:05.460 Great March of Return. 177 00:11:06.400 --> 00:11:12.400 There have been in the past three days, three more killings of Palestinian children. 178 00:11:12.660 --> 00:11:19.920 A 14-year-old on Friday who was shot in the chest with an exploding bullet that exploded 179 00:11:19.920 --> 00:11:24.800 in his back as he started to climb a fence. 180 00:11:25.060 --> 00:11:30.620 And two children yesterday who were playing football in their backyard as Israel launched 181 00:11:30.620 --> 00:11:33.840 40 different airstrikes against the besieged. 182 00:11:33.860 --> 00:11:35.820 Gaza strip where they were killed. 183 00:11:36.060 --> 00:11:38.460 And I want to mourn those lives. 184 00:11:38.580 --> 00:11:40.300 I want to recognize those lives. 185 00:11:40.580 --> 00:11:44.700 But also say that Palestinians don't matter because they die. 186 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:46.640 We matter because we exist. 187 00:11:47.100 --> 00:11:54.240 And what the Great March of Return has shown us is how much Palestinians love life in a 188 00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:55.680 way against all odds. 189 00:11:55.880 --> 00:12:01.620 In the Great March of Return, we saw 30,000 Palestinians gather. 190 00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:03.040 Over seven 191 00:12:03.860 --> 00:12:13.040 consecutive weeks under a brutal 11-year land siege, a naval blockade, under six, three 192 00:12:13.740 --> 00:12:20.940 large military onslaughts in six and a half years, under a siege where there is no power 193 00:12:20.940 --> 00:12:26.160 because the sole power plant was deliberately attacked and destroyed by Israel in 2014. 194 00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:30.460 So they only have four hours of electricity a day. 195 00:12:31.060 --> 00:12:32.580 Any other people... 196 00:12:32.580 --> 00:12:33.840 Where the World Health Organization, the World Health Organization, the World Health 197 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:36.120 Organization says that it will be unlivable by 2020. 198 00:12:36.680 --> 00:12:41.760 I mean, this is human constructed annihilation. 199 00:12:42.600 --> 00:12:47.260 Anybody else would think we can barely survive if it's a little too cold outside. 200 00:12:49.040 --> 00:12:57.180 And here they are, 30,000 gathering, knowing full well that they are risking their lives 201 00:12:57.780 --> 00:13:01.860 to perform , which is Palestinian line dancing, basically. 202 00:13:02.260 --> 00:13:03.700 To fly kites. 203 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:03.820 To fly planes. 204 00:13:03.820 --> 00:13:06.440 To come out dressed as clowns. 205 00:13:06.440 --> 00:13:09.300 I mean, there's joy. 206 00:13:09.880 --> 00:13:12.900 There's joy in the movement to resist. 207 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:19.320 And that joy is actually what's representing a will to live and a love of life. 208 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:22.960 And I think what Palestinians in Gaza are teaching the rest of the world is how precious 209 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:23.640 life is. 210 00:13:24.040 --> 00:13:25.940 And they're teaching us what life is. 211 00:13:25.980 --> 00:13:27.060 They're not teaching us death. 212 00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:28.140 They're teaching us life. 213 00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:31.580 And how far a people is willing to go to survive. 214 00:13:31.880 --> 00:13:33.280 And so, when I look at that. 215 00:13:33.280 --> 00:13:38.880 I see good things happening all the time and I see that that's inspiration for 216 00:13:38.880 --> 00:13:42.560 the rest of us of how much this life is worth living and how we can live it 217 00:13:42.560 --> 00:13:48.540 better I'd like since you've been talking about Gaza I'd like to ask and 218 00:13:48.540 --> 00:13:52.640 Rita about the role the interesting role that Gaza has played in Malaysian 219 00:13:52.640 --> 00:13:58.700 politics because a Gaza has become and you remember the freedom flotilla in 220 00:13:58.700 --> 00:14:04.600 which you know activists attempted to sail supplies into Gaza against the 221 00:14:04.600 --> 00:14:07.980 naval blockade and people were killed and the boats were boarded and people 222 00:14:07.980 --> 00:14:11.780 arrested there were quite a lot of Malaysians involved in that action and 223 00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:16.920 so how does Gaza play in Malaysia well I'd like to get to that but first I want 224 00:14:16.920 --> 00:14:20.840 to take up this issue if you don't mind if I'm political scientists working on 225 00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:24.380 things that they can't foresee I mean I'm no political scientist I'm a 226 00:14:24.380 --> 00:14:28.360 historian but at the same time you know it is true that sometimes you have to 227 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:28.680 deal with the political science and the political science and the political 228 00:14:28.680 --> 00:14:32.820 with issues that you can't see coming and I think part of that is this some 229 00:14:33.320 --> 00:14:37.780 obsessive interest in quantitative methods and polling one thing about the 230 00:14:37.780 --> 00:14:41.800 Malaysian election is you know it's very as I mentioned I've been asked how could 231 00:14:41.800 --> 00:14:46.320 this have happened we didn't see it coming and I had said in February I mean 232 00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:49.320 I didn't predict it I nobody I don't think it would have been wise to make a 233 00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:52.320 prediction but I did say this is going to be different there's something going 234 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:58.380 on there's a contest brewing and the reason I sort of started to feel that way 235 00:14:58.380 --> 00:15:01.640 and I I must stress it was an interpretive act it wasn't a data 236 00:15:01.640 --> 00:15:06.320 driven kind of feeling was because I realized it took me about an hour to get 237 00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:09.380 people to say anything about what they were going to do when they went to vote 238 00:15:09.380 --> 00:15:14.500 so you had to sit with them and you had to kind of you know almost just just 239 00:15:14.500 --> 00:15:18.760 talk about anything at all you know until finally it became possible for 240 00:15:18.760 --> 00:15:22.280 them to admit that they were thinking about change and it was going to be a 241 00:15:22.280 --> 00:15:26.240 significant change and actually you know they looked so bored there was this kind 242 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:28.360 of this air of just boredom around the place and I think that's a really important thing to think about. 243 00:15:29.140 --> 00:15:45.600 Thought set 244 00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:54.060 But actually what it is, is this process of every single person that you run into, that you ask, having to go through this enormous mental calculation. 245 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:55.580 If I vote this way, this might happen. 246 00:15:55.720 --> 00:15:58.300 If this alliance changes, this whole other thing could happen. 247 00:15:58.620 --> 00:16:01.120 If government falls here, all these other things could happen. 248 00:16:01.340 --> 00:16:03.180 And then what about this and what about that? 249 00:16:03.460 --> 00:16:10.480 And the load that people had to bear before deciding to change was this load of calculation. 250 00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:17.020 I guess in such circumstances, things like opinion polls become where you've got A or B. 251 00:16:17.320 --> 00:16:18.400 It's pretty meaningless. 252 00:16:18.680 --> 00:16:18.900 Exactly. 253 00:16:18.920 --> 00:16:20.320 And people were just lying to pollsters. 254 00:16:20.660 --> 00:16:24.080 So all the polls just said, oh, look, it's a done deal. 255 00:16:24.100 --> 00:16:25.160 The government's coming back in. 256 00:16:25.300 --> 00:16:28.720 And of course, you can't really blame pollsters because that is the easy prediction. 257 00:16:28.820 --> 00:16:31.880 The government did win every single election until that one that it lost. 258 00:16:33.660 --> 00:16:34.820 But that's the thing. 259 00:16:34.860 --> 00:16:40.380 Things just stay the same and they stay kind of not exactly unbearable. 260 00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:42.020 Because people were bearing it pretty okay. 261 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:47.440 But it just goes on and on and on until suddenly it's not going on anymore. 262 00:16:47.460 --> 00:16:48.300 Suddenly it's changed. 263 00:16:49.400 --> 00:16:55.540 And that really puts observers, it puts researchers on the edge of what they do know and what they don't know. 264 00:16:55.660 --> 00:17:02.180 At the very last minute, apparently, Google searches for opposition politicians started to surge. 265 00:17:02.580 --> 00:17:04.680 At the very last minute, people started admitting. 266 00:17:05.040 --> 00:17:09.700 On the last day, people started being a little bit more open that perhaps they might vote for the opposition. 267 00:17:10.600 --> 00:17:16.460 And I have had it reported to me that once you see this sort of happening on the last day, 268 00:17:16.500 --> 00:17:18.820 you can apparently predict that something big is going to happen. 269 00:17:18.940 --> 00:17:22.020 But if you're in a situation where you've never seen anything like this before, 270 00:17:22.300 --> 00:17:25.860 how do you even make a judgment that even that late data is worth believing? 271 00:17:25.960 --> 00:17:26.640 How do you believe it? 272 00:17:26.660 --> 00:17:27.440 You can't believe it. 273 00:17:27.980 --> 00:17:31.840 And so I think the only way to respond with any humility at all is to admit, 274 00:17:31.960 --> 00:17:37.020 look, sometimes we just have to interpret what we think might be going on based on the vibe of the thing. 275 00:17:37.700 --> 00:17:40.460 And that takes some experience and some intuition. 276 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:42.860 And it takes digging deeper. 277 00:17:43.120 --> 00:17:45.360 So I haven't answered the question you're asking at all. 278 00:17:45.520 --> 00:17:48.420 Do you want to talk about Gaza? 279 00:17:48.460 --> 00:17:51.840 Do you want the role of Gaza in Malaysian politics? 280 00:17:52.040 --> 00:17:54.640 I could just briefly because I don't want to take up all of Noura's time. 281 00:17:55.300 --> 00:18:04.660 Look, I – well, one thing that I have observed for quite a while is that Gaza, that Palestine, 282 00:18:06.540 --> 00:18:10.440 even outside observers said can't really do a whole lot for the – 283 00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:17.140 in a very democratic situation, want to project a whole lot of different hopes and intentions onto Gaza as a site. 284 00:18:17.600 --> 00:18:29.180 And in the case of Malaysia, as I mentioned before, it's been very important to the elite there that Malaysia be viewed as a good example of a moderate Muslim nation doing good things in the world. 285 00:18:30.180 --> 00:18:33.300 You know, the Palestine struggle used to be framed as an anti-colonial one. 286 00:18:33.700 --> 00:18:37.240 But a nation like Malaysia, it doesn't frame it that way. 287 00:18:37.280 --> 00:18:39.680 It frames it in terms of its Muslim world diplomacy. 288 00:18:40.520 --> 00:18:48.800 You know, there's a whole series of relationships that Malaysia has always been very serious about building and will continue to build now with the new government as well, 289 00:18:49.040 --> 00:18:51.040 which are the South-South relationships. 290 00:18:51.260 --> 00:18:55.100 So they do a lot of so-called Muslim world diplomacy. 291 00:18:56.420 --> 00:19:01.880 And in some of the flotillas that went to Gaza, the Freedom Flotillas, there were all these Malaysian NGOs involved. 292 00:19:02.040 --> 00:19:08.740 And if you dig a bit deeper, you realize that the Malaysian NGOs are actually set up by political parties that are, you know, vying for government. 293 00:19:08.860 --> 00:19:10.420 They either are the government or they're the government. 294 00:19:10.420 --> 00:19:31.480 And then there might beauty و 295 00:19:31.480 --> 00:19:36.000 struggle. And I think one of the most interesting things about all of this is that change in the 296 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:41.740 nature of the discussion of such struggles, where it's no longer framed internationally as an 297 00:19:41.740 --> 00:19:47.020 anti-colonial struggle, but as a kind of a Muslim solidarity issue. That, to me, has been very 298 00:19:47.020 --> 00:19:51.620 interesting to observe in Southeast Asia. Yeah. So, Nora, I'd be interested in your comments on 299 00:19:51.620 --> 00:19:57.320 that, because hearing you speak last night, you framed the Palestinian struggle. This is not an 300 00:19:57.320 --> 00:20:03.600 Islamic struggle or a Muslim cause. This is a liberation struggle, an anti-colonial struggle. 301 00:20:04.220 --> 00:20:10.860 But do you see it portrayed, or do you see these external projections onto the Palestinian 302 00:20:12.600 --> 00:20:20.540 liberation struggle in these forms of, you know, as an Islamic struggle or a Muslim struggle? 303 00:20:20.940 --> 00:20:24.780 So it's really interesting, and so here I'll just think out loud with you all about this, 304 00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:27.160 which is to say, and I, 305 00:20:27.320 --> 00:20:32.020 I think I mentioned this last night as well, which is, it's so out of time and space to call 306 00:20:32.020 --> 00:20:41.540 anything anti-colonial. In 2018, when we live in almost a collective amnesia, that colonialism 307 00:20:41.540 --> 00:20:50.140 defines our entire world. And we seem to imagine our current conditions as always being, that this 308 00:20:50.140 --> 00:20:56.420 has always been the case. It will, it has been, it has no limit, and in the future it has no end. 309 00:20:57.320 --> 00:21:05.400 That's the way that we think about our state system, which is a Westphalian system. It's the way that we think about our economic systems. 310 00:21:05.660 --> 00:21:16.520 We seem, about neoliberalism, we seem to think, you know, think of those conditions that govern us as being timeless, both past and into the future. 311 00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:17.860 Completely sort of normalized. 312 00:21:18.280 --> 00:21:27.300 Completely normalized. So then how do you understand the question of Palestine, which emerges onto a global stage at the height of the 313 00:21:27.320 --> 00:21:37.120 anti-colonial struggle, which is part of a global movement to basically delegitimize colonialism as a legitimate system of governance, right? 314 00:21:37.300 --> 00:21:44.140 But becomes outpaced as all of these other former colonies achieve independence and Palestine is left behind. 315 00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:56.240 Now how do you make sense of it in a world where there is no longer a stark bifurcation between the East and the West or the North and the South, 316 00:21:57.320 --> 00:22:08.580 where there are certain countries that are allied with Palestine against, you know, imperial powers, where there's actually controversy over what is terrorism, 317 00:22:08.740 --> 00:22:18.860 what is legitimate versus illegitimate violence, and instead everything becomes subsumed into neoliberal agendas that almost without fail every state has adopted. 318 00:22:19.220 --> 00:22:27.100 And so it's really difficult then to, when I say, and I think I got one question, you know, an angry question, 319 00:22:27.320 --> 00:22:34.820 about, well, if you really think that this is about colonialism, you know, and brought it back to the question, what about Palestinian violence, right? 320 00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:38.660 Because we can't grasp this idea of liberation. 321 00:22:39.860 --> 00:22:50.520 That's how I see it. That's how Palestinians continue to see their condition of being a people who, in the aftermath of the First World War, 322 00:22:50.760 --> 00:22:56.360 were promised, along with all of the former Ottoman provinces, 323 00:22:56.360 --> 00:23:06.020 that they would have the right to self-determination and be able to govern themselves and see that opportunity usurped by British Empire 324 00:23:06.020 --> 00:23:13.820 in a colonial move to designate Palestine as a site of colonial settlement for a Jewish, to establish a Jewish national home. 325 00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:21.840 And so for most Palestinians, we're still clinging on to this promise, this unfulfilled promise of self-determination. 326 00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:26.340 But because we've, because of this colonial moment that has come into play, we're still clinging on to this promise of self-determination. 327 00:23:26.360 --> 00:23:35.720 Because of a present now where we're seeing the failure of states, of post-colonial states to achieve independence and actually betray their people, right? 328 00:23:35.940 --> 00:23:45.700 That this promise that they would lead them to better futures, they actually just became the same oppressive face that imperialism and colonialism represented, 329 00:23:46.020 --> 00:23:50.620 but now with a native mask, as opposed to a foreign one. 330 00:23:50.980 --> 00:23:56.260 It makes now the idea of what Palestine is different for different communities. 331 00:23:56.360 --> 00:24:05.860 So that you have a lot of left movements look to Palestine and see it as the forefront of a battle against imperialism across the world. 332 00:24:06.040 --> 00:24:12.680 That, you know, every stone thrown is a stone against capitalism and what it's done. 333 00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:21.980 And you see a Muslim world look to it to see the vindication of the injustices meted upon Muslim peoples all over the world. 334 00:24:22.040 --> 00:24:25.900 Whether they, you know, whether it's, we're not recognized ever as victims. 335 00:24:26.360 --> 00:24:29.520 As the primary victims, for example, of terroristic violence. 336 00:24:29.860 --> 00:24:33.340 Or the primary victims of warfare. 337 00:24:33.760 --> 00:24:37.760 Or the primary victims of genocide, as we've seen in Bosnia, for example. 338 00:24:38.120 --> 00:24:45.380 And so Palestine becomes part of a narrative of Muslim, things that are done to Muslim atrocities. 339 00:24:45.520 --> 00:24:46.960 And to different communities. 340 00:24:47.060 --> 00:24:53.460 So, for example, an auntie Yvonne last night declaring that she sees in Palestine herself. 341 00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:56.340 Because what's happening to Palestine. 342 00:24:56.360 --> 00:25:00.660 What's happening to Palestinians right now has happened to the native peoples on this land. 343 00:25:01.520 --> 00:25:03.100 During an active frontier. 344 00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:11.140 And so this idea of projecting different struggles on to Palestine in order to understand it and to struggle is quite real. 345 00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:14.200 So I listen to this and I listen to it with an open ear. 346 00:25:14.280 --> 00:25:15.540 I don't tend to push back. 347 00:25:16.540 --> 00:25:20.020 Because it means many different things to different peoples. 348 00:25:20.140 --> 00:25:25.800 And it just represents for me a human desire to figure out how it is. 349 00:25:26.360 --> 00:25:30.140 How we can best coexist and not just survive but thrive. 350 00:25:30.740 --> 00:25:33.360 And so, yes, it has Muslim dimensions. 351 00:25:33.800 --> 00:25:35.420 Yes, it's a settler colonial situation. 352 00:25:35.780 --> 00:25:38.420 Yes, it's an anti-colonial struggle. 353 00:25:38.840 --> 00:25:41.420 And it is all these things to all these people. 354 00:25:41.560 --> 00:25:46.720 And the idea is how do we then work together and merge those energies. 355 00:25:46.760 --> 00:25:52.320 So it doesn't become a political opportunity to exploit. 356 00:25:53.200 --> 00:25:55.100 But instead becomes a place of collaboration. 357 00:25:55.660 --> 00:25:56.340 So, Robert. 358 00:25:56.360 --> 00:25:59.300 When we were communicating on email about this session. 359 00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:03.280 We were talking about what are the links between Malaysia and Palestine. 360 00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:05.640 These are two very different situations and so on. 361 00:26:06.060 --> 00:26:10.640 But one of the links it seems to me is the question of race or maybe identity. 362 00:26:11.500 --> 00:26:13.140 However we want to express it. 363 00:26:13.240 --> 00:26:19.860 So in Malaysia we have a multiracial society with something like 25 to 30% Chinese. 364 00:26:21.280 --> 00:26:25.260 Straits Chinese who are long term residents of the Malaysian peninsula. 365 00:26:25.260 --> 00:26:32.340 An Indian, Malaysian Indian community who were originally indentured laborers. 366 00:26:32.340 --> 00:26:33.960 And mostly Tamil but not entirely. 367 00:26:34.180 --> 00:26:37.380 And then the so called sons of the soil, the Bumi Putra, the Malays. 368 00:26:38.520 --> 00:26:44.100 And the politics of Malaysia is very much about, or has been very much about, 369 00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:55.000 maintaining that Malay dominance or let's say promoting the advantages for that Malay group. 370 00:26:55.260 --> 00:27:00.320 And then in Israel we have Palestinians and Israelis living together. 371 00:27:00.740 --> 00:27:03.520 Mostly, most Israelis are Jewish but not all of course. 372 00:27:03.900 --> 00:27:05.380 20% of Palestinians. 373 00:27:07.900 --> 00:27:11.840 And we had this idea of a two state solution. 374 00:27:12.100 --> 00:27:13.540 The Oslo Accords and so on. 375 00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:19.760 And most observers I think now say this two state solution is, it's impossible now even if it ever was. 376 00:27:19.980 --> 00:27:23.680 I mean so much settlement has taken place in the occupied territories. 377 00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:35.500 The wall is carving out so much more of Palestine or the West Bank and Gaza have been so damaged by bombardment and embargoes and all the rest of it. 378 00:27:35.560 --> 00:27:37.960 The idea that we can have these two states is now slipping. 379 00:27:38.860 --> 00:27:48.820 So if we can't have two states and if the idea which has been the focus of the Palestinian struggle for an independent state is not viable. 380 00:27:49.120 --> 00:27:53.660 That means Palestinians, that means a state on the land of Israel. 381 00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:56.280 That means the lands of Palestine and Israel in which people live together. 382 00:27:56.540 --> 00:28:01.640 It means a multi-racial, multi-ethnic, multi-religious state of some sort. 383 00:28:02.080 --> 00:28:07.580 So I ask you both, what does the future look like then? 384 00:28:08.320 --> 00:28:14.720 What's the, if good things happen, what does the future of Malaysia look like in this multi-racial coalition where race has been used politically? 385 00:28:15.040 --> 00:28:17.520 What does it look like for Palestine and Israel? 386 00:28:18.200 --> 00:28:21.860 Well, I mean it's a great question and a really tough one to answer. 387 00:28:21.860 --> 00:28:27.420 What I can point to is how the calculations seem to be made. 388 00:28:27.500 --> 00:28:36.280 Because of course there's the electoral political sort of calculus that you need to do if you're a political operative in the Malaysian scene. 389 00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:38.480 And that gives you two options. 390 00:28:38.600 --> 00:28:42.360 One is go with racial and religious provocation. 391 00:28:43.160 --> 00:28:48.700 And the other is to go with breaking that up somewhat and going for the multi-racial pitch. 392 00:28:48.840 --> 00:28:51.840 Because we should say that all the parties generally are racially based. 393 00:28:51.860 --> 00:28:52.320 Aren't they? 394 00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:55.060 There's the UMNO United Malay National Logos. 395 00:28:55.140 --> 00:28:58.360 There's MCA or they're used to be the Malaysian Chinese Association. 396 00:28:58.700 --> 00:29:04.520 There's the Democratic Action Party which is not racially based but which is seen as Chinese and so on. 397 00:29:04.900 --> 00:29:05.140 That's right. 398 00:29:05.300 --> 00:29:12.300 I mean there's a, you know, historically there's been this kind of bargain between the races of the, you know, the Malay states. 399 00:29:12.460 --> 00:29:14.740 That's how it was sort of set up as a transition to independence. 400 00:29:15.700 --> 00:29:18.780 So UMNO was set up as a Malay Muslim party. 401 00:29:19.320 --> 00:29:21.840