WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.180 My name's Nikki Vincent and I'm the South Australian Commissioner for Equal Opportunity 2 00:00:04.180 --> 00:00:11.600 and welcome to the 2018 Dame Roma Mitchell Oration at the Adelaide Festival of Ideas. 3 00:00:11.780 --> 00:00:18.220 It honours the work and achievements of Dame Roma Mitchell, a trailblazer in law, in government 4 00:00:18.220 --> 00:00:25.660 and in public and philanthropic service. She was born in Adelaide in 1913 and was a lawyer, 5 00:00:25.660 --> 00:00:32.200 judge and governor of South Australia. In honour of her work as chair of the first Commonwealth 6 00:00:32.200 --> 00:00:37.640 Human Rights Commission and as a powerful advocate for human rights, Dame Roma was asked 7 00:00:37.640 --> 00:00:44.940 to present the inaugural Mitchell Oration in 1989. And in it she argued that legislation 8 00:00:44.940 --> 00:00:49.980 and education were necessary to ensure that people not only had legal rights and equality 9 00:00:49.980 --> 00:00:54.460 but that society was made aware of its human rights responsibilities. 10 00:00:55.660 --> 00:01:01.160 And she hoped that one day the equal opportunity and human rights legislation would no longer 11 00:01:01.160 --> 00:01:08.720 be necessary and my job wouldn't be necessary. She didn't see that happening in the foreseeable 12 00:01:08.720 --> 00:01:14.140 future and she was obviously right. Which brings me to this wonderful guest that we 13 00:01:14.140 --> 00:01:17.920 have who I'm sure will have a lot to say on that topic. 14 00:01:18.680 --> 00:01:23.420 Emeritus Professor Gillian Triggs was the President of the Australian Human Rights Commission 15 00:01:23.420 --> 00:01:25.640 from 2012 to 2017. 16 00:01:26.800 --> 00:01:34.380 She's had a long and amazing career with so many other significant appointments throughout 17 00:01:34.380 --> 00:01:38.620 her life in Australia and internationally and I'm going to get her to talk about those 18 00:01:38.620 --> 00:01:44.640 in the session. But she's currently the chair of Justice Connect. She's Vice President of 19 00:01:44.640 --> 00:01:50.300 the Asian Development Bank Tribunal and she's chairing a United Nations investigation which 20 00:01:50.300 --> 00:01:54.760 is a really fascinating opportunity that she's also going to talk about. 21 00:01:55.660 --> 00:02:01.340 So Gillian, thank you so much for joining us today in Adelaide for this wonderful festival 22 00:02:01.340 --> 00:02:02.120 of ideas. 23 00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:14.580 Where is my cartoon gone? There it is. Okay. So I want to start with this cartoon. You 24 00:02:14.580 --> 00:02:23.080 told me that you've had over 20 newspaper cartoons and you often found them as a sort 25 00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:25.280 of humorous outlet. 26 00:02:25.660 --> 00:02:31.360 I guess for all of the hype and media criticism. But you described this one as one of your favourites. 27 00:02:31.480 --> 00:02:35.340 So tell us about this cartoon. What's going on here and why is it a favourite? 28 00:02:35.640 --> 00:02:40.060 Well thank you very much and it is of course a huge pleasure to be here and I'm so delighted 29 00:02:40.060 --> 00:02:47.040 that you honour the memory of Dame Roma Mitchell as a younger, relatively younger lawyer. She 30 00:02:47.040 --> 00:02:53.260 was really the shining beacon for all Australian women and women lawyers. A remarkable woman, 31 00:02:53.380 --> 00:02:54.640 a great scholar, a great lawyer. 32 00:02:54.640 --> 00:02:59.400 But also of course a predecessor of mine in the job and she understood just how complex 33 00:02:59.400 --> 00:03:03.720 this is. And the part that you read out about her speech about education I think absolutely 34 00:03:03.720 --> 00:03:08.940 underpins everything that I think we really need in the future. But to come back to this 35 00:03:08.940 --> 00:03:12.740 cartoon, in fact I counted them up the other day because I thought I'd better be careful 36 00:03:12.740 --> 00:03:17.160 about the numbers. I've got over 40 of these cartoons of one kind or another that I will 37 00:03:17.160 --> 00:03:20.760 explain with great glee to my grandchildren when they're old enough to understand. 38 00:03:22.120 --> 00:03:23.260 But this one... 39 00:03:24.020 --> 00:03:24.620 This one is... 40 00:03:24.620 --> 00:03:27.760 This one I think is the loveliest. Some of them were actually quite flattering and as 41 00:03:27.760 --> 00:03:30.720 you can see this one is actually making me a little thinner than I really am. 42 00:03:32.160 --> 00:03:37.780 Which I'm always delighted by. Too many of them portrayed me in pearls. I love pearls 43 00:03:37.780 --> 00:03:42.380 but in the end I stopped wearing them because what they were trying to do was to position 44 00:03:42.380 --> 00:03:48.920 me as a sort of elite middle class woman who really was too light and fluffy to be worth 45 00:03:48.920 --> 00:03:53.340 listening to. But this one is lovely. This is based on the James Bond theme, the Quantum 46 00:03:53.340 --> 00:03:53.920 of Brandis. 47 00:03:53.920 --> 00:04:00.840 And there I am dangling from a hook above a shark infested pool and Mr Abbott is a submarine 48 00:04:00.840 --> 00:04:06.440 floating in that pool. And the Attorney General or former Attorney General George Brandis 49 00:04:06.440 --> 00:04:12.880 is at the top of the submarine in a smoking jacket stroking a cat. And I'm about to make 50 00:04:12.880 --> 00:04:18.360 my escape through the ladder and out into the skies on the helicopter above. But the 51 00:04:18.360 --> 00:04:21.760 running theme underneath it was Triggs, Gillian Triggs. 52 00:04:22.580 --> 00:04:23.180 . 53 00:04:23.180 --> 00:04:23.900 . 54 00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:31.860 ! Which I really love. But some of them were of course quite cruel and nasty but one thing 55 00:04:31.860 --> 00:04:37.680 I really learned from this job and particularly over the last six years is as a lawyer we 56 00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:44.140 can produce all the opinions and all the speeches but what actually cuts through best is comedy 57 00:04:44.140 --> 00:04:48.360 and I'm such a fan. We have a very strong tradition in Australia of comedy and it's 58 00:04:48.360 --> 00:04:50.900 very, very effective. We can talk about that a little bit later. 59 00:04:51.020 --> 00:04:52.140 Yeah, yeah. Thank you. 60 00:04:52.320 --> 00:04:52.640 . 61 00:04:52.640 --> 00:05:00.880 I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean 62 00:05:00.880 --> 00:05:07.180 I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean 63 00:05:07.180 --> 00:05:07.300 I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean 64 00:05:07.300 --> 00:05:07.440 I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean 65 00:05:07.440 --> 00:05:07.540 I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean 66 00:05:07.540 --> 00:05:20.500 I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean 67 00:05:20.500 --> 00:05:26.740 the Natural History Museum at the weekends, and I really had a wonderful early childhood. 68 00:05:27.140 --> 00:05:34.320 But my parents' world was very much informed by the fact that they, like many Londoners in 1939, 69 00:05:34.740 --> 00:05:42.060 left school at 17, and at 17 and a half were, of course, allowed my father to enroll in the British 70 00:05:42.060 --> 00:05:50.240 Army, and my mother in what was called the Wrens, the Royal Women's Navy. And so that the years 71 00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:56.720 that perhaps most of us would have spent at universities, they didn't have that opportunity 72 00:05:56.720 --> 00:06:02.540 at all. They finished their secondary education barely, went straight into the Civil Ambulance 73 00:06:02.540 --> 00:06:07.740 Service, a few months doing that for the bombings in London to rescue people in buildings, and that's 74 00:06:07.740 --> 00:06:13.000 how my parents met. And then they each went off, my father to the army, and became a tank commander 75 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:19.280 in the northern desert. The family story was that he personally defeated Rommel in North Africa. 76 00:06:20.240 --> 00:06:27.640 My mother was with the Navy down in Portsmouth and plotting, or supposed to be plotting, 77 00:06:28.280 --> 00:06:33.920 submarines up the English Channel, enemy submarines, and on one notorious occasion plotted 78 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:39.540 what she thought was a submarine. It turned out to be orange boxes. But they both had 79 00:06:39.540 --> 00:06:48.940 a war that they survived, but defined their futures. And for them, they were very young, 80 00:06:52.960 --> 00:07:05.000 so I mean these things mean these things mean so much to me. 81 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:05.080 Stromae 82 00:07:18.180 --> 00:07:25.980 principles of equality and to avoid the racism and religious discrimination that underpinned 83 00:07:25.980 --> 00:07:34.060 the foundations of war and that, of course, inspired those remarkable opening paragraphs 84 00:07:34.060 --> 00:07:39.680 of the United Nations Charter, that if we breach human rights, we inevitably lead to 85 00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:40.020 conflict. 86 00:07:40.400 --> 00:07:46.700 And so as young and not particularly well-educated people, they grasp those principles very early 87 00:07:46.700 --> 00:07:46.920 on. 88 00:07:46.920 --> 00:07:47.200 Yeah. 89 00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:48.960 But then they wanted some sunshine. 90 00:07:49.340 --> 00:07:50.920 They desperately wanted the sun. 91 00:07:52.120 --> 00:07:58.040 And so you describe the journey over on the boat as one of the formative journeys of your 92 00:07:58.040 --> 00:07:58.400 life. 93 00:07:58.480 --> 00:07:59.340 Why so? 94 00:08:00.620 --> 00:08:03.440 Well, I think we share perhaps this background. 95 00:08:03.560 --> 00:08:05.120 I'm a 10-pound Pommie Margaret. 96 00:08:05.540 --> 00:08:10.620 And I don't think the Australian taxpayers realised that we were being transported to 97 00:08:10.620 --> 00:08:15.900 Australia in absolute luxury on, in my case, the Iberia, the flagship for the P&O line. 98 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:24.000 But it was a remarkable trip because we came through the Suez Canal just after it was reopened, 99 00:08:24.060 --> 00:08:33.920 after the disastrous French and British invasion of Egypt, to take back the Suez Canal from 100 00:08:33.920 --> 00:08:35.620 Nasser's expropriation. 101 00:08:35.640 --> 00:08:41.960 It was a very dramatic time and, in a way, a last gasp for the British Empire because 102 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:45.640 it was a failure of monumental kind. 103 00:08:45.720 --> 00:08:45.880 But it was a very dramatic time. 104 00:08:45.880 --> 00:08:53.220 And, of course, unsuccessful in turning back the clock so far as the Suez Canal was concerned. 105 00:08:53.420 --> 00:08:59.380 But the key point was that I was leaving this world of London and security and believing, 106 00:08:59.540 --> 00:09:05.660 of course, that it was the centre of the universe, to come through the Mediterranean to Port 107 00:09:05.660 --> 00:09:12.820 Said and then down into Yemen where, of course, it was guns and poverty of a level that I 108 00:09:12.820 --> 00:09:13.540 could hardly believe. 109 00:09:13.800 --> 00:09:15.860 And interesting now that you're in the middle of a world where you're in a world where 110 00:09:15.860 --> 00:09:21.560 Yemen was then of course a time of great civil war and poverty, it still is now with 111 00:09:21.560 --> 00:09:29.280 – we don't hear very much about it but appalling levels of hunger as the civil war 112 00:09:29.280 --> 00:09:34.740 now is concentrated on the port to prevent humanitarian aid getting into these people 113 00:09:34.740 --> 00:09:42.860 but decades later the problems remain unresolved so as a 12-year-old my eyes were just completely 114 00:09:42.860 --> 00:09:45.100 open so that the world that we live in- 115 00:09:45.100 --> 00:09:59.620 And then, of course, we came through the Red Sea, through Sri Lanka, Colombo, and then down to Western Australia, South Australia, and finally to the rain and cold of Melbourne. 116 00:10:00.460 --> 00:10:02.080 We should have stopped a little earlier. 117 00:10:02.080 --> 00:10:19.420 But for a 12-year-old, that completely opened my eyes and made me so much more conscious of what a remarkable world we live in, but also how complex that world is and how disparate are the benefits and the sharing of the wealth that we have globally. 118 00:10:19.800 --> 00:10:26.440 And you went on in 1964, I think, to a Commonwealth scholarship at Melbourne Law School. 119 00:10:27.060 --> 00:10:31.480 But you said you didn't find your passion until the third year. 120 00:10:32.080 --> 00:10:34.140 Tell us about how you found the passion. 121 00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:35.020 Thank you. 122 00:10:35.220 --> 00:10:38.240 Well, of course, in those days, one did a law degree. 123 00:10:38.340 --> 00:10:39.520 You went straight into a law school. 124 00:10:40.100 --> 00:10:44.300 I was barely 18, and you were out at 22. 125 00:10:44.740 --> 00:10:46.700 You'd done your articles, and there you were. 126 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:54.760 It was far too early, really, to be doing it, although it was, as I say, fairly normal at that time. 127 00:10:54.820 --> 00:11:01.140 But I'd done the first couple of years of law, and I couldn't see how I could find a place for myself in contracts. 128 00:11:01.180 --> 00:11:02.060 And I was a lawyer. 129 00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:08.140 And equity trusts, all of those standard subjects that we must do. 130 00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:11.120 They're very important, but I couldn't get my brain around it. 131 00:11:11.640 --> 00:11:14.340 But then I walked into a man's lecture. 132 00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:16.200 His name was Hans Leiser. 133 00:11:16.380 --> 00:11:22.900 He was a Polish Jew who'd escaped in about 1937, come to Australia, lecturing in international law. 134 00:11:23.220 --> 00:11:28.880 And in those days, I think there were about 10 women to 300 men in massive lecture theatres, and we sat in the front. 135 00:11:29.520 --> 00:11:31.720 My parents weren't big on a clothing allowance. 136 00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:35.700 I had my English kilt on and a twin set, and I had to say some pearls. 137 00:11:35.900 --> 00:11:42.480 And we sat there, the girls, we all sat there in the front row, saying nothing, not a thing. 138 00:11:42.740 --> 00:11:47.940 And there was Hans Leiser talking about the covenant of the League of Nations. 139 00:11:48.180 --> 00:11:53.820 And some in the audience will know how important that first effort was after the disastrous First World War. 140 00:11:54.000 --> 00:12:01.920 That was the war to end all wars, and the language of the covenant was so inspiring that this was the first time that, 141 00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:10.000 when the League of Nations had agreed on a process by which we could end conflict, that we would prohibit aggressive war. 142 00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:14.900 Defence certainly was acceptable, but there was a system, a cooling off stage. 143 00:12:15.340 --> 00:12:23.180 And he describes how this covenant was negotiated in Geneva with the support of the Americans, President Wilson in particular. 144 00:12:23.460 --> 00:12:31.460 And then he described the mounting pressure of fascism of the Nazi party in Germany. 145 00:12:31.460 --> 00:12:37.980 And the tanks rolling in from Italy to Abyssinia, today's Ethiopia. 146 00:12:38.420 --> 00:12:43.320 And as he described the failure of the covenant and the vision and aspirations of that covenant, 147 00:12:43.460 --> 00:12:45.860 I saw these tears roll down his cheeks. 148 00:12:46.020 --> 00:12:48.180 And I thought, this is the subject for me. 149 00:12:48.400 --> 00:13:00.440 I really believe, and I know Dame Roman Mitchell believed, in the power of the rule of law to constrain political ambition. 150 00:13:00.780 --> 00:13:01.440 And I think that's what I'm going to do. 151 00:13:01.460 --> 00:13:03.120 And leading to conflict. 152 00:13:03.340 --> 00:13:09.220 And that underpinning mechanisms to avoid conflict is respect for basic human rights. 153 00:13:09.340 --> 00:13:10.740 And I was very young. 154 00:13:10.780 --> 00:13:12.180 I didn't really know what I was doing. 155 00:13:12.580 --> 00:13:14.240 We were a bit pompous in those days. 156 00:13:14.280 --> 00:13:19.460 I remember we used to talk about mainland China to show off the fact that we knew it was different from Formosa and Taiwan. 157 00:13:20.040 --> 00:13:30.740 We used to talk over, you remember those old Chianti bottles with dripping candles in them and drinking five shilling bottles of Matus Rose. 158 00:13:30.740 --> 00:13:33.180 And we thought we knew everything. 159 00:13:33.280 --> 00:13:34.400 Of course, we didn't know anything at all. 160 00:13:34.520 --> 00:13:45.540 But the point was that that generation, I think, in the 60s, was a time of a sense of power and optimism that through the law and political leadership, 161 00:13:45.640 --> 00:13:49.620 we could actually achieve peace and human rights. 162 00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:51.460 It was the 60s. 163 00:13:51.460 --> 00:13:52.680 Were you a bra burner? 164 00:13:53.300 --> 00:13:54.360 Well, not literally. 165 00:13:57.280 --> 00:13:59.720 But we did actually discard them. 166 00:13:59.720 --> 00:14:01.600 I don't think we burnt them, but we certainly discarded them. 167 00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:03.060 You were wearing the pearls, but not the bra. 168 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:03.520 Yes, exactly. 169 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:05.640 Exactly. 170 00:14:06.460 --> 00:14:11.640 But of course, when we all graduated and out in the job market, the bras went back on again. 171 00:14:11.740 --> 00:14:15.320 And there we were, sort of learning the rules of the game. 172 00:14:15.540 --> 00:14:16.820 And then you went to Texas. 173 00:14:17.340 --> 00:14:17.740 Yes. 174 00:14:17.940 --> 00:14:19.080 Tell us about Texas. 175 00:14:20.380 --> 00:14:28.100 Well, I got a scholarship to study there and to study international law because now I discovered that this is what I wanted. 176 00:14:28.660 --> 00:14:31.460 It was not seen as a serious subject in those days. 177 00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:37.040 If you wanted to be a serious lawyer and you wanted partnership in a law firm, you did subjects that all lawyers should do. 178 00:14:37.140 --> 00:14:43.880 And I strongly support young people from becoming very accomplished in banking, finance, corporate law, and so on. 179 00:14:43.900 --> 00:14:44.680 Of course, you need it. 180 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:49.020 But for me, I wanted to move into that international legal environment. 181 00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:58.080 And the Americans at that time were enormously generous, and they paid my airfare, my accommodation, allowance, and full tuition fees in Texas to study international law. 182 00:14:58.100 --> 00:14:58.660 Which I did. 183 00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:07.220 But in the course of that, and I hope this isn't too long an answer, but in the course of it, I needed a bit of income and I did a summer internship with the Dallas Police Department. 184 00:15:07.700 --> 00:15:24.840 And at that time, it was just about six years after the Johnson administration had passed the 1964 civil rights legislation, Title VII, which was basically about non-discrimination and civil rights. 185 00:15:25.480 --> 00:15:28.080 Achieved remarkably after the death of Kennedy. 186 00:15:28.100 --> 00:15:31.260 And Kennedy in Texas, through the Johnson administration. 187 00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:32.680 Lots of funds. 188 00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:43.740 And the chief of police was very keen to implement those funds and to ensure that the Dallas Police Department not only was squeaky clean in terms of corruption, but was representative of the community. 189 00:15:44.060 --> 00:15:46.200 Blacks, Chicano Americans, women, and so on. 190 00:15:46.460 --> 00:15:54.500 And he asked me for a summer internship to provide him legal advice on Title VII of the civil rights legislation. 191 00:15:54.960 --> 00:15:58.080 Now, today, from the lofty heights of my 70s, I'm not going to be able to do that. 192 00:15:58.100 --> 00:16:01.800 I don't think I'd go to a foreign country and advise the chief of police about their laws. 193 00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:03.500 It was extraordinary. 194 00:16:03.620 --> 00:16:07.580 But at 30, or I was 28, it seemed to me to be perfectly natural. 195 00:16:09.300 --> 00:16:12.120 So I read the law, read the cases. 196 00:16:12.200 --> 00:16:15.500 There was a big Supreme Court decision on it, Griggs and Duke Power Company. 197 00:16:15.680 --> 00:16:16.920 And I gave him the advice. 198 00:16:17.340 --> 00:16:18.500 And it was what he wanted. 199 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:22.560 And he couldn't get the advice from the district attorney's office in Dallas, Texas. 200 00:16:22.760 --> 00:16:26.640 Which is an interesting example of a lesson we all learn in the law. 201 00:16:26.780 --> 00:16:27.680 That you have the law. 202 00:16:27.680 --> 00:16:32.520 But if you don't bring the cultural, political environment with you, very, very hard to give effect to it. 203 00:16:32.620 --> 00:16:35.780 So there was the chief of police saying, no, the advice is fantastic. 204 00:16:36.080 --> 00:16:39.800 When you finish your master's degree, would you like to take a job at the Dallas Police Department? 205 00:16:39.980 --> 00:16:41.960 So of course, I said yes. 206 00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:46.360 And I was then, I had no idea that this was a precursor of what was to come. 207 00:16:46.580 --> 00:16:52.220 But I was criticized in the Dallas newspapers for having a British accent and daring to talk about American law. 208 00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:53.760 When actually I knew very little about it. 209 00:16:54.160 --> 00:16:57.520 So I was then already exposed to what it was like. 210 00:16:57.680 --> 00:17:01.380 To stand up for what seemed to me to be very simple principles of law. 211 00:17:01.540 --> 00:17:02.540 In this case, federal law. 212 00:17:02.620 --> 00:17:03.680 But that's how I got into it. 213 00:17:03.800 --> 00:17:03.940 Yeah. 214 00:17:04.420 --> 00:17:04.900 Okay. 215 00:17:04.980 --> 00:17:06.460 So then you came back to Australia. 216 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:07.220 You got married. 217 00:17:07.360 --> 00:17:10.380 You had three children, including one with profound disabilities. 218 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:11.900 And you got your PhD. 219 00:17:12.180 --> 00:17:14.220 All in a few short years. 220 00:17:14.980 --> 00:17:20.060 Your PhD was on laws around international sovereignty. 221 00:17:20.760 --> 00:17:22.920 On how we establish territory. 222 00:17:23.140 --> 00:17:26.500 How is it that a nation state defines its territory? 223 00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:26.960 Right. 224 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:35.960 And when we claim 42% of Antarctica, the Timor Gap, massive maritime zones, how do we do it? 225 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:37.660 What are the legal principles that underpin it? 226 00:17:37.820 --> 00:17:39.780 And then you got invited to go to Antarctica. 227 00:17:39.780 --> 00:17:40.400 I did. 228 00:17:40.580 --> 00:17:44.040 Well, we had been, I'm sure you all remember the marvelous Barry Jones. 229 00:17:44.100 --> 00:17:44.360 Yeah. 230 00:17:44.380 --> 00:17:45.300 Who could forget him. 231 00:17:45.600 --> 00:17:46.860 He was then Minister for Science. 232 00:17:47.040 --> 00:17:57.320 And I'd gone to see him about the importance of underpinning if we were going to claim 42% of Antarctica, all continental shelf rights in relation to Timor and Indonesia. 233 00:17:57.320 --> 00:18:01.760 We had to get our ducks in a row and we had to know, you know, we really had to support that sovereignty. 234 00:18:01.980 --> 00:18:07.460 So Barry, in his typical way, said, right, well, if that's what you think, off you go and send me off to Antarctica. 235 00:18:07.860 --> 00:18:10.780 It may have, I think there are a few governments who thought that was an excellent idea subsequently. 236 00:18:12.460 --> 00:18:13.560 You should have stayed there. 237 00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:14.580 I should have stayed there. 238 00:18:15.540 --> 00:18:16.800 But Barry was wonderful. 239 00:18:17.060 --> 00:18:26.120 And as you know, great supporter of science and really supported spending better funding on science in the areas that Australia claims sovereignty. 240 00:18:26.120 --> 00:18:30.360 We are a massive territorial nation globally. 241 00:18:30.800 --> 00:18:35.540 And I don't think most Australians fully understand what that really means in terms of resources and power. 242 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:41.120 And skipping over a few years, married again to a diplomat. 243 00:18:41.700 --> 00:18:45.120 So you became what you've described as a trailing spouse. 244 00:18:45.280 --> 00:18:48.340 So moving around the world and working in commercial law. 245 00:18:48.540 --> 00:18:48.880 Yes. 246 00:18:48.980 --> 00:18:54.140 And then came back to Australia in the mid-90s and resumed your academic life. 247 00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:56.100 So then you came back to the UK. 248 00:18:56.100 --> 00:18:58.160 You went to the University of Melbourne and became the Dean of Law. 249 00:18:58.980 --> 00:19:09.560 And then Australia's first woman Attorney General, Nicola Robson, tapped you on the shoulder and asked you to become the President of the Human Rights Commission. 250 00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:13.300 Did you have, what went through your minds at that time? 251 00:19:13.580 --> 00:19:16.620 Well, I really valued Nicola. 252 00:19:16.740 --> 00:19:19.220 I'd known her, of course, at the University of Melbourne as a student. 253 00:19:19.380 --> 00:19:23.840 And she was always very bright, very hardworking and very impressive. 254 00:19:23.860 --> 00:19:26.080 And I was delighted for her to be the first woman. 255 00:19:26.100 --> 00:19:26.640 And I was delighted for her to be the first woman Attorney. 256 00:19:27.100 --> 00:19:35.400 When she asked me if I would take on the role, I did feel that I had to say to her, she probably well knew, that human rights was not my specialisation. 257 00:19:35.600 --> 00:19:40.580 I'd really become, you know, I'd done a lot of work on territorial boundaries globally. 258 00:19:40.940 --> 00:19:45.160 But like all international lawyers, you always do human rights law. 259 00:19:45.280 --> 00:19:46.580 But it was not my specialisation. 260 00:19:46.740 --> 00:19:50.220 And certainly colleagues in the field would be quick to point this out. 261 00:19:51.620 --> 00:19:54.800 But I did say to her, you know, this is... 262 00:19:55.940 --> 00:19:57.620 This is not my specialisation. 263 00:19:57.780 --> 00:20:00.280 But it will be an honour to take the role on. 264 00:20:00.420 --> 00:20:06.600 And she said she wanted a broader experienced commercial lawyer as well as international lawyer to head the Commission. 265 00:20:06.780 --> 00:20:08.040 So, of course, I accepted. 266 00:20:08.220 --> 00:20:11.680 It was a terrific challenge and an opportunity. 267 00:20:11.940 --> 00:20:24.280 And something that I don't regret for a second, if only because you start to see Australia as a whole rather than the bit you're in, the commercial law firm or academia or civil society. 268 00:20:24.300 --> 00:20:24.780 It's a whole new world. 269 00:20:24.780 --> 00:20:30.720 You actually start to see this extraordinary country from a much wider perspective. 270 00:20:31.080 --> 00:20:32.340 And I think that's very important. 271 00:20:32.600 --> 00:20:35.240 And it started off relatively quietly. 272 00:20:35.600 --> 00:20:38.620 And then the Abbott government was elected. 273 00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:41.440 And I believe that you voted for Tony Abbott. 274 00:20:46.900 --> 00:20:48.860 Why did you do that? 275 00:20:52.020 --> 00:20:54.400 Well, I think that's the killer question, isn't it? 276 00:20:55.600 --> 00:20:57.260 Well, I've suffered as a consequence. 277 00:20:57.380 --> 00:20:58.320 I think we can say that. 278 00:20:58.700 --> 00:20:59.760 Perhaps you didn't know. 279 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:00.620 I didn't know. 280 00:21:00.760 --> 00:21:01.060 No. 281 00:21:01.240 --> 00:21:03.560 I think at the time I was... 282 00:21:03.560 --> 00:21:05.140 I'm not a political person. 283 00:21:05.220 --> 00:21:08.100 I'm really interested in the outcome of politics. 284 00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:13.980 What is it that our politicians achieve for us in the national interest and for all Australians? 285 00:21:14.280 --> 00:21:14.760 That... 286 00:21:14.760 --> 00:21:18.840 So I'm not really interested in how the party gets on. 287 00:21:18.840 --> 00:21:19.040 It's not how the party gets there. 288 00:21:19.240 --> 00:21:20.880 It's getting there. 289 00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:21.520 It's the outcomes. 290 00:21:22.120 --> 00:21:26.240 And I felt at that time that the Labour Party was in disarray. 291 00:21:26.340 --> 00:21:29.540 And particularly the... 292 00:21:30.500 --> 00:21:35.280 Kevin Rudd's re-imposition of offshore processing. 293 00:21:35.840 --> 00:21:37.420 That so much effort. 294 00:21:37.560 --> 00:21:42.560 And we'd seen that Mr Howard had actually pulled back from that quietly, not making too much fuss. 295 00:21:42.620 --> 00:21:47.180 He actually stopped that first round of Nauru Mark 1. 296 00:21:47.180 --> 00:21:56.780 But to see Mr Rudd brought back into politics over, I think, a significant woman prime minister. 297 00:21:58.000 --> 00:22:06.860 And then to embark on policies which are completely antithetical to what I understood to be underpinning Labour policy for many... 298 00:22:06.860 --> 00:22:07.680 For a long time. 299 00:22:08.200 --> 00:22:10.780 I was very discouraged by that. 300 00:22:10.900 --> 00:22:16.800 And I thought that Mr Abbott would bring some rationality and leadership. 301 00:22:19.360 --> 00:22:20.500 As you can tell. 302 00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:26.560 I very, very quickly realised, of course, that this was a serious mistake. 303 00:22:26.820 --> 00:22:27.860 But that was within weeks. 304 00:22:27.980 --> 00:22:30.980 And I think the Australian public probably had great hopes. 305 00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:31.860 We know how well... 306 00:22:31.860 --> 00:22:34.000 How successfully he fought that election. 307 00:22:34.220 --> 00:22:36.220 And how many votes he garnered. 308 00:22:36.820 --> 00:22:45.060 But within weeks, I think, we were all expressing the disappointment that we've now seen across a subsequent prime minister. 309 00:22:45.220 --> 00:22:47.160 And you then, very quickly, said... 310 00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:52.000 And you then, very quickly, became the Coalition's and the Australian newspaper's target. 311 00:22:52.280 --> 00:22:53.380 Favourite target, really. 312 00:22:53.780 --> 00:22:55.020 How did that happen? 313 00:22:55.140 --> 00:22:55.940 What triggered that? 314 00:22:57.040 --> 00:22:57.920 Well, it... 315 00:22:59.020 --> 00:22:59.940 It's not easy. 316 00:23:00.260 --> 00:23:03.180 Obviously, in my position, what you try to do... 317 00:23:03.180 --> 00:23:04.960 And I'm sure Dame Roma Mitchell did this as well. 318 00:23:05.060 --> 00:23:15.760 You try to argue for the law and the international treaty obligations that Australia has to asylum seekers and refugees and on other issues. 319 00:23:15.760 --> 00:23:19.060 Behind the scenes, you work with civil servants. 320 00:23:19.220 --> 00:23:22.580 You work with the secretary of the department and the ministers. 321 00:23:22.800 --> 00:23:24.740 And I was regularly doing that. 322 00:23:25.040 --> 00:23:28.960 But it became clear with the Abbott government. 323 00:23:29.060 --> 00:23:33.860 We gave them four to five months to bring these children through the system and out. 324 00:23:34.080 --> 00:23:42.980 Which, in fairness to the Labour Party, and the facts support this, that although the Labour Party kept these children in immigration detention in unprecedented numbers, 325 00:23:43.280 --> 00:23:45.740 they were moving them through the system with the help of the government. 326 00:23:45.740 --> 00:23:47.920 And we were observing that. 327 00:23:48.100 --> 00:23:53.160 And I made the judgement, as a recently appointed president, that we could work with that. 328 00:23:53.280 --> 00:23:59.220 As long as the children were assessed, stayed with their families, identity and health checks done, 329 00:23:59.300 --> 00:24:02.360 you'd expect that, given the condition they're in in Christmas Island. 330 00:24:02.620 --> 00:24:05.840 And I went there three times and saw these children and their families. 331 00:24:06.900 --> 00:24:11.500 We thought we could work with the government to get these children and their families through the system. 332 00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:14.100 But then that election was called in September. 333 00:24:14.700 --> 00:24:15.220 And... 334 00:24:15.220 --> 00:24:18.300 From then on, of course, we were in caretaker mode. 335 00:24:18.380 --> 00:24:19.300 There was nothing we could do. 336 00:24:19.520 --> 00:24:21.060 And the Abbott government came in. 337 00:24:21.320 --> 00:24:25.700 And at that time, when the Abbott government came in, there were 1,100 children in detention. 338 00:24:26.460 --> 00:24:31.020 And four and a half months later, there were still 1,100 children in detention. 339 00:24:31.280 --> 00:24:35.500 In other words, unlike the former government, these children were not being moved through the system. 340 00:24:35.560 --> 00:24:36.420 It was static. 341 00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:40.840 And the government was maintaining that it was a hard line and that the children were going to stay there. 342 00:24:41.040 --> 00:24:45.120 And that's when we made the decision that I would use my presidential power. 343 00:24:45.220 --> 00:24:47.160 I was to call an inquiry to get the facts. 344 00:24:47.260 --> 00:24:50.940 What was the impact on these... on the children and their families? 345 00:24:51.160 --> 00:24:58.320 And to what extent were we in breach of our international obligations, which was, of course, my statutory obligation? 346 00:25:00.180 --> 00:25:02.860 So it seemed an obvious thing to do. 347 00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:04.620 We'd given the government a chance. 348 00:25:04.840 --> 00:25:06.040 We'd worked behind the scenes. 349 00:25:06.280 --> 00:25:08.940 But now we were out there with a public inquiry. 350 00:25:09.160 --> 00:25:11.280 We had five public meetings. 351 00:25:12.180 --> 00:25:14.920 We had unprecedented numbers of... 352 00:25:15.220 --> 00:25:16.020 submissions from the public. 353 00:25:16.300 --> 00:25:18.400 And we had the medical profession with us. 354 00:25:18.520 --> 00:25:20.240 And the facts started to emerge. 355 00:25:20.680 --> 00:25:26.520 And within two or three months, the government, I think, realised that this was going to be quite a powerful inquiry. 356 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:31.520 And from then on, I think, we attracted the ire of the government. 357 00:25:31.860 --> 00:25:38.440 But also, the government used, if I may say so, senators in Senate estimates to attack us, 358 00:25:38.500 --> 00:25:45.060 not only on that issue, but on the general question of reports that I made as president to parliament. 359 00:25:45.220 --> 00:25:49.540 Usually ignored, for example, the Don Dale use of steel restraints. 360 00:25:49.560 --> 00:25:51.000 Completely ignored these reports. 361 00:25:51.460 --> 00:25:58.780 But we were got at, and I in particular, for arguing that we should have judicial supervision 362 00:25:58.780 --> 00:26:03.720 of the very high level of administrative detention of Australians. 363 00:26:03.740 --> 00:26:09.160 Not only asylum seekers and refugees, but people with cognitive mental disabilities 364 00:26:09.160 --> 00:26:13.520 or people who'd committed a criminal offence, served their time, 365 00:26:13.600 --> 00:26:14.980 but were then rearrested. 366 00:26:14.980 --> 00:26:17.780 And detained in administrative detention indefinitely. 367 00:26:18.080 --> 00:26:23.320 And when I reported on these cases, the Senate estimates, senators started to attack. 368 00:26:23.520 --> 00:26:29.920 So they came at the commission and me through these cases from an ideological position 369 00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:32.100 that was very, very clear at the time. 370 00:26:32.180 --> 00:26:36.080 And Mr Abbott made it clear both before he was elected and after, and even now, 371 00:26:36.280 --> 00:26:40.660 that the Human Rights Commission should be disbanded and closed down. 372 00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:44.960 So one thing I think I need to make very clear is that although it looks like 373 00:26:44.980 --> 00:26:47.640 it looked as though the attack was against me personally, 374 00:26:47.860 --> 00:26:50.300 it really wasn't about me at all. 375 00:26:50.520 --> 00:26:55.160 It was about the ideological position that the Human Rights Commission should be disbanded. 376 00:26:55.380 --> 00:26:59.700 And that is why I think I was prepared to stand up. 377 00:27:00.060 --> 00:27:01.640 It wasn't about me. 378 00:27:01.860 --> 00:27:07.780 It was about the institutions of Australian democracy, which are being attacked generally. 379 00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:09.540 There are many, many more examples. 380 00:27:09.780 --> 00:27:13.380 But we happen to be right in the spotlight because of the inquiry. 381 00:27:13.380 --> 00:27:13.740 Yeah. 382 00:27:14.260 --> 00:27:18.180 In my role as Equal Opportunity Commissioner in South Australia, 383 00:27:18.340 --> 00:27:20.900 what I find, and I know you experience this as well, 384 00:27:21.020 --> 00:27:24.500 is a lot of people don't understand the act under which we work, 385 00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:25.760 the acts under which we work. 386 00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:31.720 Lots of politicians don't understand it, let alone the community and the media. 387 00:27:31.980 --> 00:27:34.820 You found that all the time, I think. 388 00:27:35.160 --> 00:27:37.760 Can you give us some of your reflections on that? 389 00:27:37.960 --> 00:27:43.040 I think it's extremely frustrating, and I did say so to Senate estimates, 390 00:27:43.040 --> 00:27:49.820 that they would blame the Human Rights Commission and other institutions of government 391 00:27:49.820 --> 00:27:53.760 for performing their responsibilities under the statute. 392 00:27:54.200 --> 00:27:57.040 And I would plead with them to read the statute. 393 00:27:57.460 --> 00:27:59.460 But I don't think any of them ever did. 394 00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:05.780 And what is shocking is that if they have difficulty with the statute, 395 00:28:06.040 --> 00:28:07.700 or with, let's go for something, 396 00:28:07.860 --> 00:28:11.180 or talk about something that also, of course, created a great furore, 397 00:28:11.380 --> 00:28:12.840 Section 18C, 398 00:28:13.040 --> 00:28:15.120 and Section 18D of the Racial Discrimination Act, 399 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:17.320 if they're unhappy with these legislative provisions, 400 00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:19.120 they are the lawmakers. 401 00:28:19.860 --> 00:28:21.000