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What are we talking about this afternoon? Ladies and gentlemen,
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we've assembled a terrific panel to have
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a discussion about democracy,
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particularly democracy in Australia in
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2018.
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So let's start by introducing the panel, ladies and gentlemen,
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Nicholas Gruen or Ruby-Rose O'Halloran, and John Keane.
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And let's go berserk and give it up please. Slowly.
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[Inaudible] let's.
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Just quickly go through. So you get a better idea of who these people are.
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Nicholas, where are you from? What do you do?
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I've never really been able to answer that question for easily, but.
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Would you like to answer as an interpretive dance? Maybe? Well,
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that's what I was doing.
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But no,
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I run a company called lateral economics and have
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been around the political and policy making
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arena for a long time and Ruby.
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I am, yes, I am a senior democracy campaigner get up. I'm also get ups,
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only democracy campaign. I do something here,
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the junior.
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Also the junior, John, where are you from? What are.
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You up to? I was born at the end of the Adelaide airport runway
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on a farm. It's true. And I had a very sad life.
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I did nothing but write about broadcast,
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do public events on the past present and future of democracy,
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sad life.
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As we're about to find out ladies and gentlemen we had a discussion before this
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session and we decided that if it's okay with you guys,
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the best way to have this discussion is if you have a question as proceedings
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unfolding, please raise your hand and we will take your question.
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As we go along, please keep it relevant to what's being discussed,
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no stipends from the floor, or I'll have to do a Tony Jones and shut you down,
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but please do join in. And if you do have a relevant question,
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please raise your hand and we can deal with it as they occur.
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So thinking about Australian democracy, you are,
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I think this discussion was going to be divided into three blocks.
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Are there problems with Australian democracy as it stands and
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as it operates today and what are those problems?
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I think then we need to think about the consequences of those problems
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and then we can round out with, well, what are we going to do?
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Is there a better way for us to proceed as a democracy?
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So starting on my left, Nicholas,
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what do you think are the major problems with democracy in Australia today?
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Well, I'm going to go fairly deep.
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And I'm going to say that the major with democracy is that over the last 200
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years,
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we've worked ourselves into a frame for democracy
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in which, sorry, just need to hold on. Sorry. Yeah,
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that's better. Isn't it? Yeah. Sorry. I could hear perfectly. Okay.
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We've worked ourselves into a frame for democracy in which is a
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largely like we're consumers in a shop.
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We have the, the purveyors of political goods.
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They're called politicians and they're surrounded by journalists and so on.
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And we're in the shop and we're progressively more and more unhappy with what's
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been served up to us,
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but we're not in a shop where in a society and the whole
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metaphor is wrong, but of course we're, it's highly,
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it's now not only highly acculturated, but highly structured into the process.
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So if you want to be your own politician,
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which is what you could have been in Athens you,
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it that's, you have to professionalize yourself.
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You have to work at it for the next 10 years to become a politician.
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And by the end,
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you will have had to have abided by the central rules of
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political warmaking. And by that stage,
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you won't really be the same kind of person. If you are the same,
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the sort of person, an ordinary person, you weren't
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that's not how it works. You have to show discipline and so on.
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So I think we've got a huge problem.
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Because we've all got the wrong metaphor.
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And the other thing we do is that we say, well, where are the good guys?
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Where the people it's these politicians who are lying to us,
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but we vote for the politicians and you can't bring all out of that one
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by saying, well,
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the choices aren't very good because the choices got the way they got,
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because we vote the way we vote.
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And as prime minister prime minister hacker says to burn
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it in the great in the great program. Yes,
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prime minister Bernard,
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it seems that the civil service exists sit merely to
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prevent politicians from implementing the
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sacred promises they've made to the people and burn. It says, well,
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somebody has to,
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so that's the situation that we're in and we're responsible for that
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situation, even though we'd love to blame somebody else.
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Okay. So really what, what problems do you identify with our democracy?
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Well, I'm glad that you actually how's that volume.
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Good.
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Those are so I'm glad you got us started on the conversation about metaphors,
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because I love talking about the right metaphors you use when you're talking
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about democracy, because it really bothers me.
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People often talk about democracy as being a true democracy or a healthy
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democracy.
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And I think that that is ultimately misrepresentative and leads people to be
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quite implicated in the way that they approach their dealings with trying to
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improve our democracy.
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My preferred metaphor for a democracy is that it is a very,
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very complicated machine.
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It's a manufacturing machine and it's something that we need to maintain and
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repair and fix damage that is subsequently done to it.
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But also that we need to improve and keep up with the times, you know,
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as things change, we need to improve that machine and make it better for us.
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And it takes a lot of work to get it, to be what it needs to be.
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And I think the one that machine is functioning as well as it possibly can be
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the way I would define a democracy that's working for the people is
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that political decisions are being made and they're being made in a way that
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services, services,
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the genuine wants and interests of everyday people over the
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interest of corporate money or career politicians or vested interests who have
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too much influence in parliament.
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And I think if I were to assess the state of Australian democracy today,
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I would say that the machine is working, but only just a,
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and there are a lot of threats that are facing it,
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and we really need to come together at the moment and work out how we can fight
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that as people powered movement.
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John, your problems with the machinery of government in Australia.
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Well, I I have,
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I have sympathy for Nicholas, I think is a bit too Greek,
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but we'll talk about that in a moment. And, and Ruby rose, I,
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I very much share this. I'm not sure about the metaphor of the machine. I mean,
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I think two things are worth saying there was no such sort of stir up the
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discussion
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once upon a time in this country it was noted
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by lots of overseas observers that this was a
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lively,
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innovative democracy and representative parliamentary form.
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And a lot of things happened here in the 19th century that were nearly first
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by world standards. The secret ballot
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the voting in of constitutions,
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it happened in south Australia in the early 1850s by adult male
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suffrage.
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It's very rare that democracies democratically Institute themselves,
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it's one of the great paradoxes and it's true.
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Half the population was excluded women.
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We were the first to grant after a long struggle
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women,
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the right to vote and the right to stand do not listen to the Kiwis if they tell
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you they did it first,
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because it happened first here in south Australia New Zealand does,
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did not extend the right of women to stand. You know,
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you can have the vote that you can't be trusted to be a representative. We
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produced a constitution sort of compound federal constitution.
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That's pretty interesting. We were,
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we had the first national labor government in the world.
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We had an arbitration system to deal with industrial conflicts.
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And so, and I'd say that by comparison,
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we're now in a period it's been developing for a couple of decades of
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sloppiness laziness, parochialism,
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complacency,
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and generally a lack of democratic imagination about the reforms.
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I have a slogan,
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I have a slogan for either of our political major political parties to adopt.
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It's been satisfactory about the last 20 years. Yeah.
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Now is the time for complacency.
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And yeah. And then.
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The problems we've already heard a couple,
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I mean,
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I think the disappearance of maybe 200,000 young people
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off the electoral roll is a problem.
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And that as happened in a system where, of course we have compulsory voting,
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but the levels of disaffection arising and they are sometimes of
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Russian standards.
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If you really want to be shocked and not sleep for a few nights,
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have a look at the museum of Australian democracies reports on the level of
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disaffection, you know, over 90% of us.
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I actually think politicians always lie. I mean,
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this is really not good to say the least we have a precarious
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developing.
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We didn't have much discussion about that in your last couple of days, you know,
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the so-called gig economy,
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mainly young people who are unsure about their super,
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they don't know about what kind of care they will have when they grow older.
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And so on. I think the failure of the Uluru statement we haven't,
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you know, it's stalled. We have, we,
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we haven't extended the democratic principle to peoples whom we
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annihilated almost that is.
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Unfinished business. [inaudible].
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Historian of democracy.
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And I'm just about to publish a new book on the future of democracy.
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One of the really unusual things about time of this generation is the
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financialization of markets of capitalist economies.
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We tend to think of democratically elected governments as in charge of revenues,
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you know, through taxation and so on.
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And what in fact has been happening for since roughly
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1970,
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is that the grip of the banks and credit institutions on all
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actually existing have been growing to the point where money supply well,
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over 90% of money supply in this country is not controlled by state.
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It's actually controlled by credit and banking institutions.
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And if you allow them to supervise themselves,
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it's a bit like allowing goats to look after the garden.
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And as you know, this government,
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the federal government was very reticent about a Royal commission.
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It was forced into Royal commission. And we now witness, you know,
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scenes of bankers passing out into ambulances as they,
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as they come out from testimony.
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These are the kinds of issues that I think this, you know,
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complacent democracy and I'm deeply responsible for this.
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I feel it these are the kinds of issues that it seems to me need addressing,
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and I don't know how to do it. I think it's probably got to come from below.
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It has to be get off.
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It has to be Nicholas ruins making the case
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against representative democracy and
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and using cities and states as leverage.
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That's often how reforms happened to this country.
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That's all on the democratic agenda.
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I think that's my campaign speech for democracy.
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Terrific. I'll let you get off the stump. Just for a moment.
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We have a question from the audience between.
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Me putting my hand up and you finishing speaking, you may have answered it,
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but what's the cause cause you go two decades. Well,
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that takes us back to John Howard. I mean, is he, is,
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is it all his fault or is it all, or,
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and it's probably unpopular in this audience,
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is it all for and Keating because they're the ones that introduced the economic
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rationalization or are we talking global trends?
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We're talking growth global trends.
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So we're talking the collapse of social democracy in the seventies.
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The coming of neo-liberalism is that no, I'm not, I'm not.
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So I'm my frame for this is fast
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food. Okay. Fast food.
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Why am I talking about fast food?
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Because fast food comes about from people
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competing to minimize the cost and maximize the
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profit of harvesting certain human appetites for
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salt, for fat, for sugar, and,
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and that doesn't trigger the disgust in a reflex that's fast food.
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Okay.
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And what we've got is a commoditized
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political landscape in which everything
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is optimized to within an inch of its life. Now,
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I think that lots of the campaigns that get up run I
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agree with them, but they're all optimized as well.
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They're they'll test 20 phrases and they'll test which ones get clicked
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on first and they're running a shadow
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data stream, which is like
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in some senses.
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Cambridge Analytica.
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Now we think it's less spooky.
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I it's it's if I was trying to campaign
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on any of these things, I'd do the same thing.
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Just as if I was trying to make as much money as I possibly could out of food,
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I would do the same thing as fast food fast food
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vendors.
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So what we've got is a system which has been
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optimized over the last few decades,
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but starting a couple of hundred years ago, which had a culture,
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which was a kind of, well, I mean, you know,
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it was a racist culture, it was a sexist culture.
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There were all kinds of things about that culture, but it kind of knew itself.
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And it was a culture of every day life.
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And that's sort of slowly gone and
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that's, and this is where we are.
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Ruby. It looks like you want to jump in.
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I think that might be a question for us.
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No,
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I'd like to hear your response first and then we can go to the question at the
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back.
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Oh, wow. Where to begin.
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So the implication that the way that get up runs digital campaigns is anything
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like the shadowy stuff that happens on Facebook,
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Cambridge Analytica it's we
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progressive campaign outfit.
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We have a million members across Australia who we've tried to speak to,
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but more importantly
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so I was saying the implication that get up is anything like any of the shadowy
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things that are happening in the Facebook,
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Cambridge Analytica sphere of the world is completely absurd.
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We are a campaigning organization. We are,
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we have a million members across Australia.
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We primarily communicate with our members on digital channels.
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And the thing that's really crucial to understand is we're trying to speak to
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all of our members, but more importantly,
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we're trying to listen to all of our members and, you know,
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as a very small team of campaigners who are centralized mostly in Sydney and
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Melbourne,
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the only way that we can truly listen to what our members are trying to say is
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to look at the data that they are giving us. So, you know,
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you say that we tested 20 different things as if that's a bad thing and then go
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with the best one.
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But what we're actually doing is putting 20 different things out to our
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membership and seeing what makes people excited and seeing what campaigns people
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want to get behind and what campaigns people want to try and make impact on.
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And so we actually have a saying, get up. We say,
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if you're not looking at your data, you're not listening to your members.
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And if you're not listening to your members, you're a. So that's,
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that is why we have such a data focused organization.
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And which I actually think is ultimately a good thing, not just for democracy,
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but also for the democracy of the way that getup is run as an organization.
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And then just finally,
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I'd say you speak as if the comparison between fast food and saying
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that they're trying to make as much money as we can, as they can.
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And comparing that to get up, get up, isn't trying to make money, get up,
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is trying to make progressive social change. Yes, exactly.
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Which is a good thing. I think that anyone here who supports get ups campaigns,
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as you said,
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that you do would say that us maximizing our impact is a good thing. Yeah.
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It's wonderful that there is an organization.
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That is one of the demographics.
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Now let's, let's go to the question that, that the lady at the back of it, so.
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What to continue on this conversation around democracy and technology,
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but look at it in a more positive light as we started going towards what you
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were saying, how can,
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and should technology be helping democracy in terms of like constituents getting
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in touch with the like NPS and all that kind of stuff.
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How can technology actively positively help democracy?
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Yeah. Can't we bring democracy into the digital age, John.
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I was hoping that really,
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we need to reveal in a moment I want to hear from you.
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I wanted to go back a little bit before it goes straight into that question.
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Because I,
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I think that Nicholas with the
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greatest respect and I really admire the
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guts that goes into your large complaint against
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representative democracy. I think,
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I think you're throwing away a tool that's really
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vital for the constraint of power and transformation of institutions.
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And I think the history of representative democracy is not right.
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And I think you, by calling an aristocracy as you did yesterday,
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I think this is, this is actually misrepresentation.
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And I think that in Australia as elsewhere, one of the really basic
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radical reforms that's needed,
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Bernie Sanders spoke about a political revolution.
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I'm kind of in that frame of mind at the moment is to
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rejuvenate electoral represent to div politics.
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And the only way it can be done, it will not happen through the parties.
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And it will not happen through parliament and governments.
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It's got to come from outside.
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And in that sense our years feel to me a bit
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like the 1830s or 1840s,
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hardly any trade unions friendly societies and cooperatives
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try to keep alive public spirit disenfranchisement of people,
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great gap between rich and poor.
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It took most of the 19th century in the early years of the 20th century to
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breathe life into the principle of the universal franchise.
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So I think way up to that about technology, I mean,
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I sat through yesterday a very interesting session here on
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media and I,
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and I think I would hope that we have a discussion about before we leave at
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quarter to five or 10 to five, because I think this is, you know,
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this is the domain in which the technology question is really, really important.
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And I wrote a lot about this. There's a communications revolution going on.
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It's not finished. It has its dark sides. We're beginning to see.
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It's not only, you know, the,
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the birth of big conglomerates and it's not only the China model where you
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harness the internet revolution for the sake of the strong governmental
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rule. It's also the politics of algorithms.
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We've been beginning to learn those dark sides, but the,
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the positive, constructive democratizing effects are still with us.
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And we've still got lots of opportunities in this country. I think what,
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what concretely it means is not only the defense of the ABC
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but also nobody claps.
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That's sad [inaudible].
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But I think experimenting with platforms that take advantage of new digital
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network information flows I'd say that, get up,
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does this,
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I would say the conversation for which I've written a lot is an Australian
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first, and it's a,
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it's a public service platform that gets academics onto their bunkers.
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The, the,
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the development of a much more complex ecology of news and
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information platforms is a really important thing for democracy because
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to come to basics and I'll stop, you know,
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what is democracy it's self-government of the people I would say through their
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representatives,
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but have you ever thought that democracy is common ownership of
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the means of decision-making from the household, you know,
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through to the battlefield,
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that is what democracy historically was all about, that it, that,
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that the privatization of power by tyrants or by aristocrats is
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not cool. And so what we're losing,
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I think is that basic sense.
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And the regaining of it has got to include, I think,
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this new, more complicated ecology of state-of-the-art
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digital technologies that,
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that can defend platforms that and public views
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about what is the public good.
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And a lot of this will happen outside the party and parliamentary system.
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I've no doubt that that's going on. All of these platforms are underfunded.
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They're all struggling. As Peter phrase said yesterday for new business models.
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I don't agree with him that the bead that the ABC should be made
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to start thinking about, you know, paying for the ABC. I think that's giving,
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that's giving the keys away to the James a while. Anyway, it's my rent.
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[Inaudible].
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So look,
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I should try and just clarify something that John said about my view of
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representative democracy or elections I'm for them just by the way.
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And so what I'm suggesting is that just as the
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19th and 20th, sorry,
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just as the 18th and 19th century were about building constitutions with checks
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and balances between elections by the people in elections,
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by the property classes,
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which is what the legislative council was here until quite recently,
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that the 21st century should be about setting up checks and balances between
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the people's representatives chosen by election and the people's representative
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chosen by lot as we do in juries.
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So in my model, we have an upper house.
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I don't mind if we have three houses,
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I don't have anything against the upper houses houses we have now,
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certainly the Senate, as far as I'm concerned, does more good than harm.
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But I would like to see a citizens chamber with as many Australians
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chosen by lot in that chamber.
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And here's a power I would give it if there was a super majority of that
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chamber,
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about 60% or more to make it clear that it wasn't just the random selection that
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produced the majority,
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then it could impose a secret ballot on
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another house with which it disagreed.
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And we would not have abolished carbon pricing if we,
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if it had had that power.
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So that's the sort of thing that I'm talking about.
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I'm talking about revved up democracy and how damaging it is.
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I'm talking about the difference between the will of the people,
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which we hear a lot about and the considered will of the people.
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If you hold a citizens jury in in
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the United Kingdom before the people going in we'll vote about 50
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50 for Brexit and the people coming out or vote about 60,
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40 against Brexit,
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I'm going with the considered will of the people.
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And I think that's the last best hope for democracy.
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When we look around at the way,
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I've how sick our democracy is.
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And John calls for a richer
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ecology.
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That's one of the things that makes the Swiss democracy so strong because it
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has a very strong information or ecology behind things
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like citizens initiated referendums.
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And so on the way I see electoral democracy,
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the endless hoopla, the endless razzmatazz, the endless
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arousal of our resentments is that it's actually
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harming the it's actively harming the,
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the richness of our ecology.
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And if you think about media 30 years ago,
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and now you get some idea of that on technology the
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great risk with technology, and I've seen this happen again, and again,
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is that people love, or they, until about five years ago,
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almost everybody loved what Silicon valley had done to so many areas.
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And I do too. I mean, there's all sorts of toxic things going on,
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but I love Twitter. I love Facebook. I love the connectedness of it.
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And what they did was they used these new platforms to lower transactions
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costs to, to make everything travel lightning fast.
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What if that's actually not a good thing for democracy?
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What if democracy relies upon bringing the
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considered will out of the will the clickbait and so on?
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So the one piece of technology, which where,
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when I predict my years about the internet was it was
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a discussion website called your view, it's now in mothballs.
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But this was an exciting thing. And what was it? Well,
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what happened on your view was that it was you,
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you would debate various live political issues as we are now,
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and people would vote and they'd vote people up and down,
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but in the background or algorithms trying to work out
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whose voice mattered to other people,
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and it used various various methods to do that.
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And of course they would be transparent to anyone who wants to interrogate that.
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But let me tell you one of the rules to give you an idea of what was going
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on. Can you do it really quickly? That's what I was about to do.
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That was what I was about to do.
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The person gets voted up with a high credibility score.
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If what they say is rated well by people they disagree with,
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okay, now that's what our democracy needs. It needs that.
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And that's what I'm focused on. Okay. Now question it's in the floor.
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Before we come to you, sir. There is something I want to say, and I,
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I think you've all missed the main problems with our democracy.
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Our main problems is that not only for our democracy,
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but certainly in the United States and several other countries
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is that it has been reduced to a popularity contest.
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And the people who are standing for office are,
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do not have to have any demonstrable qualifications
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or ability to actually run the country.
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They just have to be more popular than the other candidates.
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And an added problem in Australia is we have compulsory voting
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and much of the populous are probably ineligible to vote
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from the point of view of an understanding of what is required
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for the governance of the nation. Not like us, of course, no. Well, no,
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I, I'm not reducing it to an us and them situation,
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but I can remember, I can remember going to the,
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the polling booze the first time to Peter Garrison for the Senate.
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And I had people my age coming to me wanting to know where midnight oil was
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on the voting ballot. Now, if,
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if people don't have a basic working
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knowledge of what is going on in
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politics then surely why should we compel them to vote?
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I would like to make a direct retort to that.
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And also to the argument that you made around the considered will of the people.
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I think that first of all,
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Australia's compulsory voting system is actually actually an extraordinary thing
489
00:30:34.771 --> 00:30:38.910
for our democracy because you look around the world and you see societies where
490
00:30:38.911 --> 00:30:43.080
voting is not compulsory and you know, who doesn't vote, marginalized people,
491
00:30:43.260 --> 00:30:46.980
women don't vote. Low-Income people don't vote people of color. Don't vote.
492
00:30:47.010 --> 00:30:50.610
People who live far away from urban centers are the ones who don't vote.
493
00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:54.900
So we're extremely lucky in Australia that we are actually forced to go to the
494
00:30:54.901 --> 00:30:57.840
polls, even though it might be annoying. It's a really, really,
495
00:30:57.841 --> 00:31:00.360
really good thing. And then
496
00:31:04.710 --> 00:31:05.543
[inaudible],
497
00:31:05.910 --> 00:31:10.530
And I also want to say that I find the argument that some people are eligible to
498
00:31:10.740 --> 00:31:11.281
vote to vote,
499
00:31:11.281 --> 00:31:15.120
and the argument that there needs to be this considered will of the people.
500
00:31:15.931 --> 00:31:20.580
I think that it puts the onus on to everyday people and it makes the
501
00:31:20.581 --> 00:31:22.500
problems with how democracy, their fault.
502
00:31:22.530 --> 00:31:27.480
And I think that that is both misleading and fundamentally unfair because if
503
00:31:27.481 --> 00:31:29.700
you want to see what the real problem in our democracy is,
504
00:31:29.970 --> 00:31:32.070
it is the big money that he's,
505
00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:35.220
that is affecting political decisions that are coming out of there. Yeah.
506
00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:45.720
Democracy is the money and the career politicians who have made their
507
00:31:45.721 --> 00:31:50.610
career off that money. And to imply that it is people, people,
508
00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:52.380
a lot of whom wouldn't have had an education,
509
00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:56.190
a lot of whom don't have the same privileges that we have to imply that they in
510
00:31:56.191 --> 00:32:00.480
any way have a lesser right to vote is to me
511
00:32:00.510 --> 00:32:04.680
fundamentally anti-democratic and I think the other thing, yeah, well.
512
00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:07.650
Leave me out of that because I've talked about it considered we'll have the
513
00:32:07.651 --> 00:32:11.610
people not qualified people. So I that's got nothing to do. I.
514
00:32:11.610 --> 00:32:14.520
Agree with what you were saying, sort of qualified competent people.
515
00:32:17.070 --> 00:32:17.130
[inaudible].
516
00:32:17.130 --> 00:32:17.910
I tell anyone.
517
00:32:17.910 --> 00:32:21.570
Whether they're competent to vote or not everyone has the right to vote,
518
00:32:21.810 --> 00:32:24.030
and it doesn't matter what your level of political literacy is.
519
00:32:24.031 --> 00:32:25.950
It doesn't matter if you don't understand policy,
520
00:32:26.190 --> 00:32:29.310
everyone should be able to tell the basic difference between a policy that he's
521
00:32:29.311 --> 00:32:30.720
good at a policy that he's bad,
522
00:32:30.721 --> 00:32:33.090
because it's not about any kind of wonky details.
523
00:32:33.270 --> 00:32:36.360
It's about the impact that it has on people's lives. It's about right and wrong.
524
00:32:36.361 --> 00:32:38.220
It's a really fundamental moral question.
525
00:32:38.460 --> 00:32:42.430
And it's up to as political communicators to be able to convey that, well,
526
00:32:42.431 --> 00:32:43.264
let's move.
527
00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:49.450
Let's move the conversation along to the consequences of the failings of our
528
00:32:49.451 --> 00:32:54.220
democracy at the moment. And there was a really interesting paper,
529
00:32:54.221 --> 00:32:57.940
came out in nature last week where they reviewed
530
00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:03.580
16 emergency environmental programs
531
00:33:04.150 --> 00:33:08.590
that were effected across China. I mean,
532
00:33:08.591 --> 00:33:11.920
we're talking three hundred and seventy five,
533
00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:14.650
eight $0.5 billion was put into this.
534
00:33:15.460 --> 00:33:20.140
It covered an area of 624 million hectares.
535
00:33:20.470 --> 00:33:23.980
There were half a billion people involved and
536
00:33:26.020 --> 00:33:31.000
basically they were addressing fundamental environmental problems that
537
00:33:31.001 --> 00:33:32.350
were destroying the country.
538
00:33:33.490 --> 00:33:37.030
The point was made here that you can only do that in China,
539
00:33:37.660 --> 00:33:42.010
because if you have a look at the article that came out in the
540
00:33:42.011 --> 00:33:46.690
conversation about Australia's worst ranked worst in the world on
541
00:33:46.691 --> 00:33:47.590
climate action,
542
00:33:48.250 --> 00:33:52.720
a lot of that comes down to the political system has
543
00:33:52.930 --> 00:33:57.340
got in the way of us being able to make decisive headway on that issue.
544
00:33:57.790 --> 00:34:01.750
If you look at the way that the Murray darling basin has been,
545
00:34:01.751 --> 00:34:06.550
squalled because of the conflict of the democracies
546
00:34:06.551 --> 00:34:08.950
within the states and across the nation.
547
00:34:09.220 --> 00:34:13.120
If you look at the fact that we are still not addressing land clearing
548
00:34:15.270 --> 00:34:20.020
so these ultimately come down to a failure of the political system
549
00:34:20.230 --> 00:34:23.170
of being able to act in the best interest of the nation.
550
00:34:23.390 --> 00:34:28.360
We voted in the last election and the people voted for a government that
551
00:34:28.361 --> 00:34:32.860
had torn up car pricing. So we're responsible. There,
552
00:34:32.950 --> 00:34:36.970
we can blame them. That's good. I don't like them either, but we're responsible.
553
00:34:37.270 --> 00:34:40.840
So why are we reaching your, why aren't we reaching out for bags?
554
00:34:41.380 --> 00:34:45.310
We voted for that. We voted for it in 2013,
555
00:34:45.510 --> 00:34:47.220
they'd promise to abolish carbon pricing.
556
00:34:47.270 --> 00:34:51.880
We voted again in 2016 and they squeaked over the line with the majority of the
557
00:34:51.881 --> 00:34:54.610
two party preferred boat. So there you are.
558
00:34:54.940 --> 00:34:58.990
I think that if ordinary people, in fact,
559
00:34:58.991 --> 00:35:03.970
I can tell you that in Texas, in a citizens, jury,
560
00:35:04.450 --> 00:35:05.350
they asked people,
561
00:35:05.351 --> 00:35:10.150
would you be prepared to pay a little bit more on your electricity
562
00:35:10.151 --> 00:35:14.560
bill to fund more renewable energy and lower
563
00:35:14.561 --> 00:35:17.440
emissions going into the citizens jury?
564
00:35:17.650 --> 00:35:21.400
54% of people said yes, coming out of it,
565
00:35:21.790 --> 00:35:25.930
84% of people said, yes. So as long as it's not very much, well,
566
00:35:25.931 --> 00:35:29.980
that's honest and that's enough. It doesn't have to be very much.
567
00:35:30.190 --> 00:35:35.080
So what we've got is is a democracy that's completely
568
00:35:35.081 --> 00:35:38.730
paralyzed by the ability to get us linked,
569
00:35:38.790 --> 00:35:41.790
get that link by going get people, revved up,
570
00:35:41.970 --> 00:35:45.780
get people thinking that other people are picking on them. That it's,
571
00:35:45.781 --> 00:35:50.300
it's that they're the good guys and we're B it's called divide. Okay.
572
00:35:50.690 --> 00:35:55.010
And it's a disaster. Okay. May I say that?
573
00:35:56.750 --> 00:35:57.260
Or just let.
574
00:35:57.260 --> 00:35:59.360
John John's comment and then we'll come to your.
575
00:36:00.170 --> 00:36:03.230
Pull has a certain fascination with the China model
576
00:36:04.730 --> 00:36:08.330
because that's the Chinese argument against representative democracy and
577
00:36:09.170 --> 00:36:10.003
Nicholas, you know,
578
00:36:10.070 --> 00:36:14.630
the Greek wants a return to deliberative assemblies.
579
00:36:14.660 --> 00:36:19.460
Where's my time. I think that if, if, if,
580
00:36:19.490 --> 00:36:23.510
if this bit of the conversation depresses you about
581
00:36:24.590 --> 00:36:29.240
democracies slowness the foolishness of majority's
582
00:36:30.110 --> 00:36:33.560
and government's inaction, you should read David Robinson's book.
583
00:36:33.590 --> 00:36:36.950
It's it's I know no other work like it it's,
584
00:36:36.980 --> 00:36:41.630
it's it's a short history of crises and the way
585
00:36:41.631 --> 00:36:46.520
democracy is handled and the good news coming from that is the pattern is
586
00:36:46.521 --> 00:36:49.880
typical in the 20th century. I think it continues to be the same,
587
00:36:50.190 --> 00:36:52.550
a lot of slope, you know,
588
00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:56.090
foot dragging and slow motion and so on.
589
00:36:56.630 --> 00:36:58.340
But when push comes to shove,
590
00:36:58.550 --> 00:37:02.210
democracies are incredibly good at solving problems.
591
00:37:02.420 --> 00:37:06.320
And they're one advantage over technocratic solutions,
592
00:37:06.380 --> 00:37:10.700
Chinese communist party instructions to shut down
593
00:37:11.330 --> 00:37:12.920
heavy industry and so on and,
594
00:37:13.160 --> 00:37:16.340
and accelerate the shift to post carbon.
595
00:37:16.700 --> 00:37:21.290
The one great advantage of democracy is that multiple opinions fed in
596
00:37:21.620 --> 00:37:25.880
and when the decision is taken and it sticks, it has great legitimacy.
597
00:37:26.720 --> 00:37:29.540
One symbol of this, a metaphor, if you like,
598
00:37:29.630 --> 00:37:34.100
of how democracies have to handle the,
599
00:37:34.101 --> 00:37:38.630
the greening of politics problem and our flank
600
00:37:39.290 --> 00:37:43.640
outwit, the China model is the decision that governor Jerry Brown took.
601
00:37:43.970 --> 00:37:48.920
When Trump said off to Paris a few days
602
00:37:48.921 --> 00:37:53.210
later, you may know that governor Jerry Brown got on a plane to Beijing,
603
00:37:53.360 --> 00:37:58.100
and he went and did a multi-billion us dollar deal with Xi Jinping about the
604
00:37:58.101 --> 00:38:00.650
greening of the California and Chinese economies.
605
00:38:00.830 --> 00:38:05.060
That's how democracies need to behave. And they can do this.
606
00:38:05.180 --> 00:38:09.590
It's just that at the moment, we're in a rotten period where, you know,
607
00:38:09.591 --> 00:38:12.170
the denialists are still in the saddle.
608
00:38:13.190 --> 00:38:17.840
There's no great initiatives. Adani is a sort of, you know, I mean,
609
00:38:17.841 --> 00:38:22.790
it's a shameful symbol of our moment because elsewhere things are happening
610
00:38:23.030 --> 00:38:24.620
and especially at the city level.
611
00:38:24.770 --> 00:38:28.430
And if you don't think democracies are capable of acting under pressure,
612
00:38:28.580 --> 00:38:32.750
have a look at cities because cities democratic cities, Copenhagen,
613
00:38:32.751 --> 00:38:37.570
and so on are beginning to be the new laboratories of the revival of democracy
614
00:38:37.600 --> 00:38:40.660
and the greening of our daily life. I think.
615
00:38:42.430 --> 00:38:45.130
So you've been very patient. I'm just wondering why.
616
00:38:45.130 --> 00:38:47.860
We need a third house of parliament.
617
00:38:48.040 --> 00:38:51.130
Why don't we just select the current house of parliament by locked?
618
00:38:51.550 --> 00:38:53.110
It has several advantages.
619
00:38:53.350 --> 00:38:56.680
You imagine half of the politicians would then be women and you'd have less
620
00:38:56.681 --> 00:38:57.514
lawyers there.
621
00:39:02.610 --> 00:39:02.630
[inaudible].
622
00:39:02.630 --> 00:39:06.870
Random. Okay. Over to you guys.
623
00:39:08.851 --> 00:39:12.810
Yeah. Well, I, I, I, we don't know what would happen.
624
00:39:12.811 --> 00:39:15.390
So I'm a conservative in that sense.
625
00:39:15.391 --> 00:39:18.420
I want to move boldly,
626
00:39:18.450 --> 00:39:21.210
but hanging on to what we've got
627
00:39:22.860 --> 00:39:26.370
you know, 250 years ago, we were all at subsistence.
628
00:39:26.371 --> 00:39:30.420
We weren't at the university of south Australia at the festival of ideas.
629
00:39:30.690 --> 00:39:35.610
So but it, it may, well, once people see the,
630
00:39:35.820 --> 00:39:38.280
the people's chamber inaction,
631
00:39:38.490 --> 00:39:41.700
once people have been in a citizens jury,
632
00:39:41.910 --> 00:39:46.470
I can tell you that about 90% of people coming out of citizens'
633
00:39:46.471 --> 00:39:47.304
juries
634
00:39:49.650 --> 00:39:53.790
happy with the experience or extremely happy with the experience or
635
00:39:54.570 --> 00:39:57.960
life-changing we happy with the experience, roughly a third, a third,
636
00:39:57.961 --> 00:40:01.370
a third people realize that the,
637
00:40:01.680 --> 00:40:04.320
that ordinary people rise to the occasion,
638
00:40:04.500 --> 00:40:06.780
that people who don't know what they're talking about.
639
00:40:06.781 --> 00:40:10.440
Most of them listen to other people who do know what they're talking about.
640
00:40:10.590 --> 00:40:13.560
And when people who don't know what they're talking about, talk about it anyway.
641
00:40:13.590 --> 00:40:18.150
Other people quietly hush them up and so on. So,
642
00:40:18.200 --> 00:40:22.860
so that's a mechanism, but the idea that we should talk about,
643
00:40:22.890 --> 00:40:26.220
wouldn't it be terrible if we had a political system in which people who don't
644
00:40:26.221 --> 00:40:30.720
know what they're talking about, talk about it. Well, I'm, I'm thinking,
645
00:40:30.721 --> 00:40:35.550
I know I'm quite familiar with that situation. As,
646
00:40:35.610 --> 00:40:40.410
as John Stuart mill one of the [inaudible] south Australia
647
00:40:40.411 --> 00:40:42.540
said in the middle of the 19th century,
648
00:40:42.541 --> 00:40:46.230
that's exactly Mill's argument that local government,
649
00:40:46.240 --> 00:40:49.680
small scale assemblies are where people learn public affairs.
650
00:40:50.010 --> 00:40:54.270
I was going to say that, you know, to be, I think it's,
651
00:40:54.390 --> 00:40:57.870
I think it's got a snowball's chance in hell of getting off the ground
652
00:40:59.040 --> 00:41:01.560
unless there's some sort of uprising and its favor,
653
00:41:01.680 --> 00:41:06.660
but I do think that the scalability problem with
654
00:41:07.260 --> 00:41:11.160
Nicholas's vision of democracy as assembly democracy is a serious issue.
655
00:41:11.550 --> 00:41:16.530
And I do think in the last 12 months we've had an option
656
00:41:16.560 --> 00:41:20.640
put on the table. It's the Boolaroo statement. It was snapped.
657
00:41:21.420 --> 00:41:22.840
It's not dead. It,
658
00:41:22.860 --> 00:41:27.450
it must not be allowed to die because the proposal was that we
659
00:41:27.451 --> 00:41:31.440
indigenous peoples have no mechanisms of representation in national affairs.
660
00:41:31.600 --> 00:41:32.910
What kind of a democracy is.
661
00:41:34.100 --> 00:41:34.933
Therefore.
662
00:41:35.210 --> 00:41:37.280
Building an agreement,
663
00:41:37.281 --> 00:41:41.810
which they work very hard at and institutionalizing. It, it's a very clever,
664
00:41:42.890 --> 00:41:44.440
compromised document that it, but,
665
00:41:44.441 --> 00:41:49.100
but the basic proposal is to have a new mechanism of
666
00:41:49.101 --> 00:41:53.300
representation of indigenous peoples interests and concerns,
667
00:41:53.420 --> 00:41:57.980
and that this, you know, this would feed into the federal parliament.
668
00:41:58.070 --> 00:42:02.900
I think that's unfinished business, and I hope it doesn't go away. This,
669
00:42:02.930 --> 00:42:05.570
we are in a marooned period.
670
00:42:05.990 --> 00:42:08.330
Nothing has happened since the apology.
671
00:42:08.820 --> 00:42:11.620
We do have another question to go to. And just before we get there,
672
00:42:12.250 --> 00:42:17.020
isn't a symbol of the fact that we are broken as a
673
00:42:18.250 --> 00:42:19.120
as a democracy.
674
00:42:19.690 --> 00:42:24.250
The fact that both major political parties are supporting
675
00:42:25.030 --> 00:42:29.470
Australian offshore concentration camps in defiance of international law.
676
00:42:30.670 --> 00:42:32.050
No argument. Okay. Fine.
677
00:42:33.490 --> 00:42:35.410
Point was made earlier that there's inaction.
678
00:42:35.560 --> 00:42:38.710
And I think the response from Nick to that was, well, we met,
679
00:42:38.740 --> 00:42:42.400
there's a mandate for the decisions that are made because we vote for the
680
00:42:42.401 --> 00:42:45.970
individuals on the platform, which they go to the polls on.
681
00:42:46.570 --> 00:42:49.210
Isn't the real problem though, that we don't vote for policies.
682
00:42:49.211 --> 00:42:52.000
We vote for parties and parties have multiple policies,
683
00:42:52.390 --> 00:42:55.780
and it's impossible to vote on each individual policy that they stand for.
684
00:42:55.781 --> 00:43:00.370
So we're forced with this terrible decision of having to pick the party that has
685
00:43:00.371 --> 00:43:02.110
the most policies that you're happy with,
686
00:43:02.140 --> 00:43:04.870
perhaps compared to the party that has less of the policies that you're happy
687
00:43:04.871 --> 00:43:05.560
with.
688
00:43:05.560 --> 00:43:10.240
Yeah. I may have say that if we didn't have compulsory voting,
689
00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:14.890
I have no doubt that what's happening in practically every actually existing
690
00:43:14.891 --> 00:43:15.724
democracy,
691
00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:20.680
the cartel party system is as the political scientists call it, you know,
692
00:43:20.681 --> 00:43:23.950
and all I gobbly would collapse. It would collapse in this country.
693
00:43:25.270 --> 00:43:27.850
There are extreme cases now where democracies,
694
00:43:27.910 --> 00:43:32.080
Italy is a case in point Greece, Germany is feeling the pinch,
695
00:43:32.140 --> 00:43:34.990
the UK, the United States, you know,
696
00:43:35.050 --> 00:43:39.880
party systems are collapsing because for nearly two thirds of a generation,
697
00:43:40.240 --> 00:43:44.620
the trend you've just described took root with,
698
00:43:44.770 --> 00:43:48.760
with hardly any membership of political parties
699
00:43:50.050 --> 00:43:54.610
where like Coles and, and so on, you know,
700
00:43:54.700 --> 00:43:56.470
came to resemble each other.
701
00:43:56.860 --> 00:44:01.810
And one of the reasons why the disaffection and the disrespectful politics and
702
00:44:02.110 --> 00:44:06.310
politicians and parliaments is rising rapidly in this country and elsewhere is
703
00:44:06.311 --> 00:44:08.710
because of that system. It's renewal,
704
00:44:09.400 --> 00:44:13.720
Nicholas wants to well says what would like to revive it.
705
00:44:13.750 --> 00:44:15.730
But I think you would like to turn your back on it.
706
00:44:16.000 --> 00:44:18.820
Rosie wants to hammer it from outside I'm much.
707
00:44:21.460 --> 00:44:23.860
[inaudible] Well, I just don't know what you're talking about.
708
00:44:23.861 --> 00:44:26.770
I want to preserve it because of the way you speak about representative
709
00:44:26.771 --> 00:44:31.510
democracy is [inaudible].
710
00:44:35.750 --> 00:44:38.690
I mean, I think that the shorter answer to your question is yes,
711
00:44:38.691 --> 00:44:40.370
obviously it's a huge problem,
712
00:44:40.371 --> 00:44:43.820
but I think even more significant to the,
713
00:44:43.940 --> 00:44:47.840
than the fact that you have to sign up to a party's entire agenda when you
714
00:44:47.841 --> 00:44:52.370
choose to vote for them is also the extreme lack of choice that we have in the
715
00:44:52.371 --> 00:44:57.320
Australian political system. We have two major parties who are both to,
716
00:44:57.500 --> 00:44:59.600
no matter what side of the political spectrum you come from,
717
00:44:59.601 --> 00:45:01.190
they're extremely dissatisfactory.
718
00:45:01.430 --> 00:45:03.860
And then we have this whole host of minor parties.
719
00:45:03.861 --> 00:45:08.390
A lot of whom are really extreme in their views or dysfunctional to the point
720
00:45:08.391 --> 00:45:11.150
where people don't necessarily feel that they would be confident having them in
721
00:45:11.151 --> 00:45:12.110
a position of power.
722
00:45:12.801 --> 00:45:16.550
And so I think this is the other issue that I take when people put the onus back
723
00:45:16.551 --> 00:45:18.440
on to voters and say, well,
724
00:45:18.441 --> 00:45:22.670
you voted them in it's your fault when you haven't been given options before
725
00:45:22.671 --> 00:45:24.950
you, that you're happy with. And when you haven't been presented,
726
00:45:24.951 --> 00:45:28.130
I don't know if I'm speaking for everyone else in the room, but you know,
727
00:45:28.160 --> 00:45:29.540
I on very,
728
00:45:29.541 --> 00:45:33.350
very few occasions in my life have ever felt inspired by Australian politics.
729
00:45:33.351 --> 00:45:37.280
There've been very few moments where I've looked more shocking. I know.
730
00:45:39.290 --> 00:45:39.651
But yeah,
731
00:45:39.651 --> 00:45:44.060
I think that the answer is we definitely do need to think about ways around that
732
00:45:44.061 --> 00:45:46.940
kind of the issue of signing up to a party's entire platform.
733
00:45:46.941 --> 00:45:47.900
But more importantly,
734
00:45:48.080 --> 00:45:50.510
we need some like real political leadership in this country,
735
00:45:50.511 --> 00:45:53.480
and we need to be able to tell the difference between parties that we're voting
736
00:45:53.481 --> 00:45:54.314
for.
737
00:45:58.310 --> 00:46:02.180
I'm afraid. We're almost there time. We have time for one last question.
738
00:46:02.270 --> 00:46:05.120
So I think this discussion has been skirting around something that I want to
739
00:46:05.121 --> 00:46:06.590
make explicit with my question.
740
00:46:07.010 --> 00:46:09.710
Do you think there's a problem that as a society,
741
00:46:09.711 --> 00:46:14.540
we view democracy as the be all and end all that may be instead in 200
742
00:46:14.541 --> 00:46:16.790
years time, we should look back on democracy itself.
743
00:46:16.820 --> 00:46:18.530
The same way we look back on feudalism,
744
00:46:19.010 --> 00:46:22.910
and that we should really be trying to design an aim for a system that is
745
00:46:22.911 --> 00:46:25.130
different from democracy. That's not what we know now,
746
00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:29.660
but which is designed so that it can't devolve into a popularity contest so that
747
00:46:29.661 --> 00:46:31.760
it can't be taken over by commercial interests.
748
00:46:32.150 --> 00:46:35.300
If democracy is the worst system, apart from all the others,
749
00:46:35.420 --> 00:46:37.130
maybe it's time to try something else.
750
00:46:38.150 --> 00:46:40.880
Perhaps perhaps what we say is what are you throwing.
751
00:46:40.880 --> 00:46:43.350
The idea out there for lots of people that think about it, the most saying,
752
00:46:43.351 --> 00:46:43.920
I have.
753
00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:47.720
I rephrase that as we've identified the problems, what are the solutions?
754
00:46:47.721 --> 00:46:48.950
What is the way forward?
755
00:46:50.150 --> 00:46:54.770
I, at the risk of being I'm told I'm even more Greek.
756
00:46:56.330 --> 00:46:59.300
Because grillin Swedish, isn't it terribly terror.
757
00:47:00.350 --> 00:47:01.183
It's Austrian
758
00:47:02.540 --> 00:47:06.020
at the risk of being sort of heading even further down this
759
00:47:06.860 --> 00:47:10.040
stigmatized spectrum of Greekness.
760
00:47:11.870 --> 00:47:16.370
The Athenians actually built that they're the only democracy
761
00:47:16.850 --> 00:47:21.770
that understood their democracy to be in a visceral struggle
762
00:47:21.771 --> 00:47:22.820
with our oligarchy.
763
00:47:23.780 --> 00:47:28.640
That's why they peppered the entire system with selection by
764
00:47:28.641 --> 00:47:33.100
lot. They, if you, if you go to the internet and type in the word,
765
00:47:33.101 --> 00:47:37.720
I think it starts with a K clip, a teary on, and John can correct me.
766
00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:43.540
It is they invented a machine that everybody could watch a bit like our
767
00:47:43.541 --> 00:47:48.520
tats, lot of bubble machine that everyone could watch and observe
768
00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:53.710
that this was random. In other words, nobody's stinking,
769
00:47:54.130 --> 00:47:58.690
myths got on it and distorted it by creating careers for
770
00:47:58.691 --> 00:48:01.900
people who followed the career incentives and so on.
771
00:48:02.260 --> 00:48:06.760
So that's why I think it's a missing ingredient of our
772
00:48:06.761 --> 00:48:07.594
democracy.
773
00:48:07.780 --> 00:48:12.460
It's not that I want to tear down what we have of elections and so on,
774
00:48:12.820 --> 00:48:16.540
but that, and when we do democracy that way,
775
00:48:16.780 --> 00:48:18.610
it becomes highly generative.
776
00:48:18.790 --> 00:48:23.050
The people who come out of citizen juries in Melbourne of
777
00:48:23.080 --> 00:48:27.250
42 people, two or three stood for local council,
778
00:48:27.280 --> 00:48:28.420
the next opportunity.
779
00:48:28.720 --> 00:48:32.710
So they'd discover that this is something that they want and they go out and
780
00:48:32.711 --> 00:48:34.990
they enrich that ecosystem.
781
00:48:35.260 --> 00:48:39.640
So I'm sort of at a loss to see how I'm see
782
00:48:40.390 --> 00:48:44.350
how, how this is somehow undermining the democracy we have.
783
00:48:44.380 --> 00:48:46.000
I see it as,
784
00:48:46.180 --> 00:48:50.620
as building real antibodies in the democracy we have
785
00:48:50.710 --> 00:48:54.210
against the sort of things that people have been talking about Ruby.
786
00:48:59.160 --> 00:49:02.160
I mean, I think that I would say that I completely agree with you,
787
00:49:02.161 --> 00:49:04.080
but I would use different phrasing.
788
00:49:04.920 --> 00:49:07.740
As I was sort of trying to explain with the machine metaphor that I think
789
00:49:07.741 --> 00:49:10.380
applies to democracy earlier,
790
00:49:10.381 --> 00:49:14.040
I think that we need to constantly be looking at ways to improve our democracy
791
00:49:14.310 --> 00:49:15.480
and not just improve it,
792
00:49:15.481 --> 00:49:18.270
but also make sure that it keeps up with the times that it keeps up with the
793
00:49:18.271 --> 00:49:19.620
pace of technological change,
794
00:49:19.621 --> 00:49:22.380
that it keeps up with the pace of international political changes.
795
00:49:22.710 --> 00:49:24.690
And so I think that I hope in 200 years,
796
00:49:24.691 --> 00:49:27.870
we looked back on the system we have now and think that it's incredibly outdated
797
00:49:27.871 --> 00:49:30.840
and we're doing so much better. To my mind,
798
00:49:30.841 --> 00:49:33.240
I would still use the phrase democracy for me.
799
00:49:33.241 --> 00:49:35.580
It would just be a better and more effective democracy,
800
00:49:35.610 --> 00:49:37.380
but I think that were probably inferior agreement,
801
00:49:37.410 --> 00:49:39.780
just using different words for it. And John.
802
00:49:41.340 --> 00:49:44.670
Two things, I think the onus is on you.
803
00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:48.780
It's an important question. Nothing is forever.
804
00:49:49.260 --> 00:49:53.310
Democracy died. As I tried to show in my history of democracy,
805
00:49:53.970 --> 00:49:57.960
endless numbers of times, and it may not survive this crisis.
806
00:49:57.990 --> 00:50:02.700
I would urge you all of you to think about the analogies between the twenties,
807
00:50:03.300 --> 00:50:07.620
1920s and thirties, and this period, the content different,
808
00:50:07.890 --> 00:50:11.610
but what we're witnessing is the emergence of a clear alternative,
809
00:50:12.180 --> 00:50:15.720
and it is the Putin art seat in ping.
810
00:50:16.470 --> 00:50:19.050
It's the Iranian Saudi alternative.
811
00:50:20.370 --> 00:50:25.350
They call themselves people's democracies less so in Saudi,
812
00:50:25.351 --> 00:50:29.870
but actually a very they're concentrated forms of arbitrary power.
813
00:50:29.900 --> 00:50:34.160
And they're a clear alternative economically. They do very well.
814
00:50:34.580 --> 00:50:38.240
And we are at a junction that we haven't seen,
815
00:50:38.241 --> 00:50:43.160
I think for since the 1920s and thirties where power sharing constitutional
816
00:50:43.161 --> 00:50:46.490
democracies are alien, they're in a palace state mostly.
817
00:50:46.940 --> 00:50:50.870
And they are now confronted by a clear alternative,
818
00:50:51.110 --> 00:50:55.460
so you can join that. You can join it, but pay attention to it.
819
00:50:55.520 --> 00:50:57.620
And the second thing I just wanted to say,
820
00:50:57.650 --> 00:51:02.120
I just wanted to read a few lines about democracy and
821
00:51:02.660 --> 00:51:05.630
its commitment to the principle of equality. I don't know if you know,
822
00:51:05.631 --> 00:51:07.400
but Eby white was a very,
823
00:51:07.580 --> 00:51:12.260
was a very famous children's writer in the United States out of the
824
00:51:12.261 --> 00:51:15.590
blue, in the July, 1943,
825
00:51:16.250 --> 00:51:20.600
got a letter from the war board of the United States,
826
00:51:20.930 --> 00:51:25.640
asking him to define democracy. And this is what he wrote. He said,
827
00:51:25.790 --> 00:51:26.623
democracy.
828
00:51:26.900 --> 00:51:31.610
It is the line that forms on the right it's the don't in don't shove.
829
00:51:32.120 --> 00:51:34.070
It's the dent in the high hat.
830
00:51:34.670 --> 00:51:38.630
Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right
831
00:51:38.631 --> 00:51:42.950
more than half of the time. It's the feeling of privacy in the voting booths,
832
00:51:43.130 --> 00:51:47.660
the feeling of communion in the libraries, the feeling of vitality everywhere.
833
00:51:47.960 --> 00:51:50.180
Democracy is a letter to the editor.
834
00:51:50.600 --> 00:51:53.330
Democracy is the score at the beginning of the ninth.
835
00:51:53.600 --> 00:51:56.960
It's an idea which hasn't been disproved yet.
836
00:51:57.320 --> 00:52:00.470
A song of the words of which have not gone bad.
837
00:52:00.710 --> 00:52:05.690
It's the mustard on the hot dog and the cream and the ration coffee democracy.
838
00:52:06.290 --> 00:52:10.040
He concluded is a request from a war board in the middle of the morning,
839
00:52:10.041 --> 00:52:13.580
in the middle of a war, wanting to know what democracy. Yeah.
840
00:52:20.770 --> 00:52:21.850
Ladies and gentlemen,
841
00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:26.560
what an invigorating and fascinating discussion to end the Adelaide festival
842
00:52:26.561 --> 00:52:28.510
ideas for 2018.
843
00:52:28.690 --> 00:52:32.440
Would you please thank Nicholas Ruby and John
844
00:52:42.040 --> 00:52:42.400
[inaudible].
845
00:52:42.400 --> 00:52:43.900
Quickly before you all go as well.
846
00:52:43.901 --> 00:52:47.110
I just wanted to say if anyone here is interested in getting involved in any of
847
00:52:47.111 --> 00:52:48.610
get-ups democracy campaigning,
848
00:52:48.640 --> 00:52:51.760
there is a table of volunteers waiting just outside.
849
00:52:51.761 --> 00:52:54.290
You can have a chat to them about getting involved and you can sign a couple of
850
00:52:54.820 --> 00:52:55.653
repetitions. If you're interested,
851
00:52:59.650 --> 00:53:01.510
ladies and gentlemen, please.