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<v Speaker 1>Poets are being peppered throughout this festal of ideas and I'm one and I'm giving you the making

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<v Speaker 1>of a storyteller, acknowledging Primo Levi's collection in a search for roots of personal

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<v Speaker 1>anthology and Samuel Taylor Coleridge's Rime of the Ancient Mariner. At the age of 16,

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<v Speaker 1>a student, youngest, smallest, cleverest and the only Jew in this class is studying classics

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<v Speaker 1>and no wonder for the son of a liberal Jewish Turin family in Mussolini's Italy might uncover

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<v Speaker 1>much in the stories of ancient Rome. Among poets, writers, historians, perhaps Virgil, Caesar,

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<v Speaker 1>Peter,

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<v Speaker 1>Seneca, even the work of the poet Lucretius, even De Rerum Natura. And in 1935 he finds in lectures,

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<v Speaker 1>perhaps in a library, call it chance, in English, concerning the nature of things, Lucretius's poem

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<v Speaker 1>of the Greek atomists. Lectures given by a Nobel Prize winner, once the elder professor of

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<v Speaker 1>mathematics.

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<v Speaker 1>He was a great scholar, a great scholar of science, who taught far from Europe's centres of science

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<v Speaker 1>and found joy in life and physics in Adelaide. Sir William Bragg had delivered those lectures

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<v Speaker 1>in 1925 at the Royal Institution. A decade on, his words, in To See Atoms, offered this boy a way

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<v Speaker 1>to explore the universe. He decides to be a chemist.

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<v Speaker 1>He stroke in

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<v Speaker 1>him when their chemist contracts scarlet fever.

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<v Speaker 1>Forgotten, lying in the

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<v Speaker 1>sanitarium alone, he has not marched with his

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<v Speaker 1>compatriots to their deaths before the Russians arrive

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<v Speaker 1>and he feels the guilt of still

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<v Speaker 1>being alive. Auschwitz

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<v Speaker 1>will become his catalyst and a storyteller

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<v Speaker 1>like Coleridge's ancient mariner

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<v Speaker 1>will return to Italy feeling bound to tell

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<v Speaker 1>again that ghastly tale.

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<v Speaker 1>Other stories like the periodic table

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<v Speaker 1>will bring chemist and storyteller together

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<v Speaker 1>to give us, the general readers, the feelings for the

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<v Speaker 1>human condition we need to have before

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<v Speaker 1>he dies.

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<v Speaker 1>In his search for roots, he leaves us four pathways.

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<v Speaker 1>One offers the work of scientists

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<v Speaker 1>whose writings may lead us to salvation

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<v Speaker 1>through knowledge. But for healing,

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<v Speaker 1>however, he offers this pathway.

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<v Speaker 1>One he has found in

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<v Speaker 1>stories of Rabelais, the poems of Giuseppe Belli

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<v Speaker 1>and Carlo Porter, and the poems of the

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<v Chair>group of poets around town. Her latest book

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<v Chair>was launched by Robin Williams at the State Library in 2010.

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<v Chair>It's a collection called Challenging the Divide,

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<v Chair>Approaches to Science and Poetry. So her presence here is

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<v Chair>particularly relevant to today's topic.

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<v Chair>In it, scientists, including Peter Doherty, reveal their views of poetry

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<v Chair>in a number of poems, providing examples of responses in poetry

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<v Chair>to aspects of the sciences.

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<v Chair>Hello, I'm Robert Fideon from the University of London, and I'm a

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<v Chair>chair of the Festival of Ideas, and I'm very glad to see you all here

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<v Chair>this afternoon. I acknowledge that today we're gathered on the

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<v Chair>traditional country of the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains,

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<v Chair>as we so often do.

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<v Chair>So, welcome to the Adelaide Festival of Ideas, today's session on the

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<v Chair>evolution of stories with Brian Boyd. A bit of housekeeping.

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<v Chair>Please switch your mobile phone to silent during the presentation.

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<v Chair>It should be silent because after all, those of you who know what Twitter is

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<v Chair>are very welcome to tweet ideas Adelaide, and the hashtag is

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<v Chair>hash AFOI, and tell the world how exciting Brian's presentation is.

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<v Chair>Today, we have the privilege of having Brian Boyd, the Distinguished

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<v Chair>Professor of English at the University of Auckland. He's worked in many

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<v Chair>comparative literatures. He's probably most prominent, most distinguished

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<v Chair>as the biographer of Vladimir Nabokov, and also of the book about which

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<v Chair>he'll be talking today, On the Origin of Stories, Evolution, Cognition

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<v Chair>and Fiction. He's also about to be the author of a book on Shakespeare's

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<v Chair>sonnets, Evolution, Cognition and Lyric Verse, on the

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<v Chair>absence of stories. So that's a tailpiece to what's on here today.

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<v Chair>He's one of the most important people in the turn towards the cognitive turn

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<v Chair>in literary studies. We think of literature as the most artificial of arts,

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<v Chair>the most verbal, the most cerebral. It's often described, it's often described

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<v Chair>as decorative, as useless, as if it's not anything to do with the essential

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<v Chair>parts of what it is to be human. Now, literature is artificial, of course,

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<v Chair>but what if it is also an adaptation to our environment? What if narrative is a

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<v Chair>way of playing, of learning to survive, of working as groups, an adaptation to a

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<v Chair>complex world that humans have peculiarly the capacity to do?

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<v Chair>So there's been a behavioural turn in many of the social sciences in recent decades.

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<v Chair>Psychology is populating everywhere in various respects and it's now influencing

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<v Chair>the humanities. Just a tiny bit from On the Origin of Stories, just on page four

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<v Chair>as it happens because I pathologically footnote, dolphin air art blurs the boundary

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<v Chair>between play and art and it is from play, widespread across the animal world,

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<v Chair>that I suggest art evolved in humans. Play and evolution and art and narrative

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<v Chair>are the things that Brian will be talking to us about in the next 50 minutes or so.

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<v Chair>Brian Boyd.

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<v Brian Boyd>Thank you Robert for the introduction and for the invitation to speak here in Adelaide

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<v Brian Boyd>for the first time in a few years. It was a great pleasure to hear Erica's poem because

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<v Brian Boyd>I have taught Primo Levi's The Periodic Table in the course in literature and science.

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<v Brian Boyd>It felt like home territory.

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<v Brian Boyd>Why do we spend so much of our time in story worlds, from pretend play and fairy tales

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<v Brian Boyd>to novels, comics, TV sitcoms and vampire series, movies from Hollywood to Bollywood

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<v Brian Boyd>and the stories in poems, song lyrics and computer games?

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<v Brian Boyd>Wouldn't you expect a successful species, as we think we are, to spend its time

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<v Brian Boyd>focusing on what's true in the world? Why does a species that derives so many of its

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<v Brian Boyd>advantages from mastering information have a compulsion to spend time engaged in fiction,

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<v Brian Boyd>distracting ourselves with information we know to be untrue?

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<v Brian Boyd>Of course we derive pleasure from stories, but we also get pleasure from ice cream and fresh butter.

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<v Brian Boyd>Explaining why we enjoy such treats by answering,

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<v Brian Boyd>because they're delicious, only takes us around in circles.

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<v Brian Boyd>Dung beetles find delicious the taste and smell of dung.

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<v Brian Boyd>We need to explain why we find pleasing the pleasures we happen to have.

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<v Brian Boyd>To a dung beetle, or to any species but our own, our taste for stories would be perverse.

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<v Brian Boyd>The philosopher Kwame Antony Apia recently observed,

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<v Brian Boyd>in the humanities we're always engaged in illuminating the present by drawing on the past.

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<v Brian Boyd>It's the only way to make a future worth hoping for.

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<v Brian Boyd>I want to suggest that we can enrich the future of literary studies as of psychology and neuroscience

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<v Brian Boyd>by drawing on the deep past unearthed by the only comprehensive explanation we have for life,

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<v Brian Boyd>the theory of evolution.

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<v Brian Boyd>In 1859, in On the Origin of Species,

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<v Brian Boyd>Darwin explained the variety of life on Earth in terms of natural selection.

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<v Brian Boyd>His explanation has been confirmed and deepened in ways even he could never have anticipated.

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<v Brian Boyd>In a world of finite resources, nature selects relentlessly over the generations

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<v Brian Boyd>in favour of those heritable variations that offer some advantage, however small,

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<v Brian Boyd>in terms of survival and reproduction.

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<v Brian Boyd>Over time, these variations consolidate and evolve,

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<v Brian Boyd>and turn into adaptations as bodily or behavioural features entrenched in a species

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<v Brian Boyd>because of the advantages that they offer for survival or reproduction.

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<v Brian Boyd>Nature selects stringently, weighing benefits against costs.

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<v Brian Boyd>Storytelling is comparatively cheap, except that it takes a good deal of time

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<v Brian Boyd>and a little energy to invent, tell and listen to stories.

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<v Brian Boyd>But we could use that time for activities

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<v Brian Boyd>with immediate biological advantage,

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<v Brian Boyd>like gathering resources or competing with others for resources already stockpiled.

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<v Brian Boyd>The evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins notes that if building dams were not beneficial to beavers,

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<v Brian Boyd>beavers with less inclination to pursue such a useless activity

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<v Brian Boyd>would have outbred those who wasted energy this way.

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<v Brian Boyd>But since dam building persists, it must offer beavers benefits.

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<v Brian Boyd>In the same way,

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<v Brian Boyd>if fiction offered no benefits in terms of reproductive success,

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<v Brian Boyd>those of us with less inclination to engage in it would thrive,

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<v Brian Boyd>and fiction would fade away as a human behaviour.

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<v Brian Boyd>Manifestly, it hasn't.

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<v Brian Boyd>What benefits does it offer?

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<v Brian Boyd>Before I offer an answer to that, let me allay some fears.

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<v Brian Boyd>Some people recoil from applying evolution to human nature and behaviour,

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<v Brian Boyd>even if they recognise that we have to draw on evolution

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<v Brian Boyd>to explain everything else about life on Earth.

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<v Brian Boyd>Those who assume evolution cannot be relevant to human minds

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<v Brian Boyd>generally fear that it must suggest our minds are fixed by our past.

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<v Brian Boyd>But that's far from being the case.

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<v Brian Boyd>Evolution is a story of change and of adaptation to environments,

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<v Brian Boyd>and it's shaped us in particular to be flexible, to be ultra-social,

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<v Brian Boyd>to be ultra-coagulant.

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<v Brian Boyd>Ultra-cultural.

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<v Brian Boyd>The fear that evolution means fixed in old ways

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<v Brian Boyd>reflects the false old oppositions of biology versus culture,

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<v Brian Boyd>or nature versus nurture.

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<v Brian Boyd>Culture, in fact, is not opposed to biology, but part of it.

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<v Brian Boyd>Culture just doesn't exist outside biological organisms.

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<v Brian Boyd>As far as I know, there are no rocks, rivers, clouds,

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<v Brian Boyd>or even lifeless planets with culture.

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<v Brian Boyd>And culture doesn't exist outside of biology.

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<v Brian Boyd>It exists only in humans.

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<v Brian Boyd>There are traditions, dialects, and fashions

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<v Brian Boyd>in three distinct mammal and bird lineages.

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<v Brian Boyd>I'll make a case for art and fiction that has evolved dispositions

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<v Brian Boyd>in the human mind,

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<v Brian Boyd>and that case depends very much on the mind's plasticity,

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<v Brian Boyd>its ability to be reshaped through repeat-focused engagement

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<v Brian Boyd>with art in general and fiction in particular.

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<v Brian Boyd>Evolution pre-shaped our minds to be particularly reshapable

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<v Brian Boyd>by human experience, including the experience of art.

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<v Brian Boyd>It's no puzzle at all why we tell true stories.

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<v Brian Boyd>If we can comprehend events, and if we have language,

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<v Brian Boyd>and if we're highly social animals,

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<v Brian Boyd>then, without needing to add anything else,

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<v Brian Boyd>we will tell true stories.

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<v Brian Boyd>Chimpanzees monitor each other intensely,

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<v Brian Boyd>and one chimp will even bring to the attention of another

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<v Brian Boyd>the fact that this male and that female are copulating behind that tree.

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<v Brian Boyd>Biologists see humans as not just social like chimps,

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<v Brian Boyd>but uniquely ultra-social.

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<v Brian Boyd>We have even more reasons than chimps

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<v Brian Boyd>to want to know who's doing what to whom.

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<v Brian Boyd>And with true narrative, we can also point who has done you-know-what to whom,

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<v Brian Boyd>who has done this or that successfully, and where and how.

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<v Brian Boyd>The compulsion for fiction certainly depends on prior capacities for true narrative,

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<v Brian Boyd>as I tease out on the origin of stories.

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<v Brian Boyd>On capacities shared to some extent by many species for event comprehension,

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<v Brian Boyd>and on capacities shared by fewer species for event recall,

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<v Brian Boyd>and on capacities shared to a still more limited extent,

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<v Brian Boyd>and by still fewer species,

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<v Brian Boyd>for event representation.

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<v Brian Boyd>But only humans seem to have a unique species-wide capacity and compulsion

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<v Brian Boyd>for event invention,

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<v Brian Boyd>from pretend play onwards.

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<v Brian Boyd>But if true narrative can impart invaluable information,

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<v Brian Boyd>how in a world of unsparing biological competition

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<v Brian Boyd>could a successful species afford an unflagging appetite

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<v Brian Boyd>for stories we know to be untrue?

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<v Brian Boyd>To answer that, I think we have to explain why we expend time and resources

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<v Brian Boyd>across cultures, epics, classes, life stages, and intellectual levels

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<v Brian Boyd>on the arts in all their forms.

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<v Brian Boyd>Music, dance, design, and stories.

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<v Brian Boyd>I say this because it seems highly likely that the art of fiction

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<v Brian Boyd>was the last of the major kinds of art to emerge.

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<v Brian Boyd>Analogues of fiction.

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<v Brian Boyd>Music and dance exist in many species,

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<v Brian Boyd>in birds, in intelligent non-primates like whales and dolphins,

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<v Brian Boyd>in primates like gibbons and chimpanzees.

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<v Brian Boyd>Chanting and rhythmic movement,

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<v Brian Boyd>and perhaps rhythmic stick or rock banging,

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<v Brian Boyd>in other words, forms of proto-song, proto-dance, and proto-drumming,

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<v Brian Boyd>seem to stretch back millions of years.

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<v Brian Boyd>And the earliest signs of the visual arts and hominins date back hundreds of thousands of years.

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<v Brian Boyd>Many are surely in stone hand axes,

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<v Brian Boyd>which date from almost two million years ago to a hundred thousand years ago,

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<v Brian Boyd>have been found in impractical sizes, too large or too small to be used,

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<v Brian Boyd>or with an unnecessary degree of symmetry.

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<v Brian Boyd>And these impractically sized or over-refined hand axes

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<v Brian Boyd>don't show the usual microscopic signs of wear and tear,

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<v Brian Boyd>as if they'd been painstakingly shaped for purely ornamental reasons.

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<v Brian Boyd>Ochre.

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<v Brian Boyd>Seems to have been mined for human bodily adornment for perhaps 240,000 years.

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<v Brian Boyd>Although the matter is far from being decided,

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<v Brian Boyd>a full modern language adequate for telling stories

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<v Brian Boyd>seems to date back only a hundred thousand years or so,

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<v Brian Boyd>or half as long again.

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<v Brian Boyd>Other proto-arts had probably been developing for hundreds of thousands of years

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<v Brian Boyd>before the first full-scale fictions.

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<v Brian Boyd>Why did the arts become established across human cultures?

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<v Brian Boyd>And life stages?

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<v Brian Boyd>In On the Origin of Stories,

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<v Brian Boyd>I try to offer a comprehensive explanation for the arts,

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<v Brian Boyd>especially the art of fiction.

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<v Brian Boyd>Art, I argue, is a kind of high play.

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<v Brian Boyd>Play occurs in all mammals.

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<v Brian Boyd>These are rats,

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<v Brian Boyd>which look much more endearing when they're playing, don't they?

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<v Brian Boyd>And the person who works with these rats is Jaak Pantsep,

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<v Brian Boyd>who says,

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<v Brian Boyd>they emit a high-pitched squeal that's too high for ordinary human audition,

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<v Brian Boyd>but can be replayed by tape,

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<v Brian Boyd>and it seems analogous to human laughter.

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<v Brian Boyd>And they like being,

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<v Brian Boyd>they like tickling each other,

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<v Brian Boyd>and they like being tickled by him.

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<v Brian Boyd>He can tickle them for half an hour and they'll still want more.

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<v Brian Boyd>So, play occurs in all mammals where it's been looked for,

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<v Brian Boyd>in birds and even in octopi,

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<v Brian Boyd>the most intelligent of invertebrates.

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<v Brian Boyd>For good evolutionary reasons,

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<v Brian Boyd>animals normally try to exert the least effort to accomplish their goals.

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<v Brian Boyd>Animals conserve resources,

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<v Brian Boyd>except in play,

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<v Brian Boyd>where they, and we, happily expend energy.

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<v Brian Boyd>Why?

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<v Brian Boyd>The amount of play in a species correlates with its flexibility of behaviour.

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<v Brian Boyd>Flexibility of behaviour solves the problem

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<v Brian Boyd>of coping with unpredictable, complex circumstances,

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00:18:58.420 --> 00:18:59.820
<v Brian Boyd>of coping with, if not with,

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<v Brian Boyd>of planning for uncertainty.

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<v Brian Boyd>So, by definition, it cannot be automatically,

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<v Brian Boyd>genetically programmed.

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<v Brian Boyd>A flexible behaviour has to be learned to maximise flexibility.

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<v Brian Boyd>If a behaviour is hardwired,

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<v Brian Boyd>there'd be no point in exercising it in a way as expensive,

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<v Brian Boyd>in energy and risk, as play.

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<v Brian Boyd>But if there is room for flexibility,

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<v Brian Boyd>then individuals who can improve their execution of complicated behaviours,

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<v Brian Boyd>and their judgement of situations in which they're needed,

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<v Brian Boyd>will fare better.

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<v Brian Boyd>This is especially the case

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<v Brian Boyd>in critical behaviours such as flight or fight.

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<v Brian Boyd>If, in secure situations,

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<v Brian Boyd>animals practise the behaviours that make the greatest life and death difference,

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<v Brian Boyd>they can then perform better,

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<v Brian Boyd>and with more context sensitivity,

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<v Brian Boyd>in moments of high urgency.

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<v Brian Boyd>Recent work on brain plasticity shows that brains can be rewired incrementally

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<v Brian Boyd>through repeated activity,

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<v Brian Boyd>so long as it engages full attention.

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<v Brian Boyd>For that reason, play has developed in many species,

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<v Brian Boyd>especially those like birds and mammals,

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<v Brian Boyd>that enjoy the security that parental care provides.

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<v Brian Boyd>Over generations, the motivation to practise has evolved

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<v Brian Boyd>and strengthened the ability to practice.

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<v Brian Boyd>This has been strengthened until play became compulsive,

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<v Brian Boyd>self-rewarding, irresistible.

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<v Brian Boyd>Sheer, present pleasure overcomes the natural bias

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<v Brian Boyd>toward minimising effort,

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<v Brian Boyd>and ensures that animals refine their control

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<v Brian Boyd>and expand their options in urgent situations.

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<v Brian Boyd>The forms of play most popular in other animals,

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<v Brian Boyd>and even ourselves,

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00:20:47.820 --> 00:20:52.680
<v Brian Boyd>are chasing or racing, flight, and rough and tumble, fight.

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<v Brian Boyd>And, in the case of play,

285
00:20:53.580 --> 00:20:56.100
<v Brian Boyd>and because we have the longest childhood of any species,

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<v Brian Boyd>play is particularly important for us,

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<v Brian Boyd>because we can now produce food surpluses

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<v Brian Boyd>and live in settlements safe from predation.

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<v Brian Boyd>Children have still more scope for play

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<v Brian Boyd>than the young of any other animals.

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00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:15.220
<v Brian Boyd>Other animals thrive by their physical strength and speed.

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<v Brian Boyd>We humans, uniquely,

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00:21:18.580 --> 00:21:20.860
<v Brian Boyd>gain most of our advantages over other species,

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00:21:21.060 --> 00:21:23.120
<v Brian Boyd>and even over one another,

295
00:21:23.120 --> 00:21:24.480
<v Brian Boyd>not from physical,

296
00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:26.400
<v Brian Boyd>but from mental strength and speed.

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00:21:26.760 --> 00:21:30.520
<v Brian Boyd>We're alone in our cognitive niche.

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<v Brian Boyd>Information matters for any species,

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00:21:33.660 --> 00:21:36.980
<v Brian Boyd>but for no others is it so decisive as for ours.

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<v Brian Boyd>Just as animals, including humans,

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00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:44.380
<v Brian Boyd>refine flexible physical skills through play,

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00:21:45.120 --> 00:21:48.840
<v Brian Boyd>humans uniquely, naturally, compulsively,

303
00:21:48.940 --> 00:21:51.900
<v Brian Boyd>refine their most important cognitive skills

304
00:21:51.900 --> 00:21:55.320
<v Brian Boyd>through art, through cognitive play with pattern,

305
00:21:56.780 --> 00:21:59.620
<v Brian Boyd>in their most important information modes,

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00:22:00.040 --> 00:22:03.340
<v Brian Boyd>in sight, in sound, and in social information.

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<v Brian Boyd>In the particular art of fiction,

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00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:07.500
<v Brian Boyd>from pretend play onwards,

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00:22:07.780 --> 00:22:10.820
<v Brian Boyd>we learn to understand events and to shift perspectives

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<v Brian Boyd>at a faster clip than otherwise,

311
00:22:12.920 --> 00:22:17.000
<v Brian Boyd>to enjoy simulations of a wide range of social situations,

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00:22:17.120 --> 00:22:19.620
<v Brian Boyd>and to generate a wider range of options.

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<v Brian Boyd>For any species,

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<v Brian Boyd>information can be handled efficiently in real time.

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<v Brian Boyd>It leads to the rapid real-time inferences

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<v Brian Boyd>that can guide action,

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00:22:32.280 --> 00:22:34.960
<v Brian Boyd>only when it falls into patterns

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<v Brian Boyd>of the kinds that species naturally recognise.

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<v Brian Boyd>Detecting patterns within information

320
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<v Brian Boyd>enables minds to understand their environment efficiently.

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<v Brian Boyd>All animals,

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<v Brian Boyd>and animals seem to prefer patterned information

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<v Brian Boyd>over more chaotic information arrays,

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<v Brian Boyd>especially the particular kinds of patterns

325
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<v Brian Boyd>that can yield rapid, rich inferences for their species.

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<v Brian Boyd>But because we particularly crave information,

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<v Brian Boyd>because we have a much more open-ended curiosity

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<v Brian Boyd>than other animals,

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<v Brian Boyd>we have a wide and an intense appetite for pattern,

330
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<v Brian Boyd>for clear information, crisp outlines,

331
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<v Brian Boyd>bold colours, clear-pitched sounds.

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<v Brian Boyd>We therefore find beauty in flowers or butterflies,

333
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<v Brian Boyd>paintings or photographs, birdsong or music.

334
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<v Brian Boyd>We find pattern beautiful even in things we don't recognise,

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<v Brian Boyd>like images of electron flow up at the top left,

336
00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:36.860
<v Brian Boyd>or light diffraction at minute scales in the bottom middle.

337
00:23:37.520 --> 00:23:41.140
<v Brian Boyd>That's a knotweed pollen at the top centre,

338
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<v Brian Boyd>and a nebula to the left.

339
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<v Brian Boyd>All combinations of these things

340
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<v Brian Boyd>are the associations of familiar patterns and the unforeseen.

341
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<v Brian Boyd>Brian Eno.

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<v Brian Boyd>Unlike other animals, therefore,

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<v Brian Boyd>we not only chase and tussle,

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<v Brian Boyd>we not only play physically,

345
00:23:59.080 --> 00:24:01.020
<v Brian Boyd>but we also play cognitively.

346
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<v Brian Boyd>Art, I suggest, is open-ended cognitive play with pattern,

347
00:24:05.520 --> 00:24:07.640
<v Brian Boyd>with patterns of intersecting patterns

348
00:24:07.640 --> 00:24:10.860
<v Brian Boyd>in the information modes that matter most to us.

349
00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:12.640
<v Brian Boyd>Sight in the visual arts,

350
00:24:12.740 --> 00:24:14.100
<v Brian Boyd>sound, especially in music,

351
00:24:14.200 --> 00:24:16.140
<v Brian Boyd>and in our ultra-social species,

352
00:24:16.140 --> 00:24:18.340
<v Brian Boyd>social information in fiction.

353
00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:23.860
<v Brian Boyd>Let me take another path to the same end point.

354
00:24:24.560 --> 00:24:29.540
<v Brian Boyd>New evolutionary solutions themselves often spawn new problems.

355
00:24:30.060 --> 00:24:34.200
<v Brian Boyd>When our brains, our weapons, and our cooperative hunting techniques

356
00:24:34.200 --> 00:24:36.700
<v Brian Boyd>allowed us to become super predators,

357
00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:38.940
<v Brian Boyd>to dominate our environments

358
00:24:38.940 --> 00:24:40.760
<v Brian Boyd>and earn the food we needed

359
00:24:40.760 --> 00:24:43.360
<v Brian Boyd>in much less time than our waking hours,

360
00:24:43.560 --> 00:24:46.120
<v Brian Boyd>we didn't solve the problem of science,

361
00:24:46.140 --> 00:24:46.700
<v Brian Boyd>or spare time,

362
00:24:46.960 --> 00:24:48.540
<v Brian Boyd>like other top predators,

363
00:24:48.760 --> 00:24:51.320
<v Brian Boyd>like lions, tigers, or bears,

364
00:24:52.140 --> 00:24:54.860
<v Brian Boyd>by sleeping the extra hours away to conserve energy.

365
00:24:57.180 --> 00:24:58.440
<v Brian Boyd>Even at rest,

366
00:24:58.580 --> 00:25:02.000
<v Brian Boyd>our large brains consume a high proportion of our energy,

367
00:25:02.200 --> 00:25:04.500
<v Brian Boyd>and since they offer us most of our advantages

368
00:25:05.140 --> 00:25:07.000
<v Brian Boyd>against other species and other individuals,

369
00:25:07.300 --> 00:25:09.940
<v Brian Boyd>we benefit not from resting them as much as possible,

370
00:25:10.040 --> 00:25:12.360
<v Brian Boyd>but from developing them as much as possible

371
00:25:12.360 --> 00:25:14.540
<v Brian Boyd>in times of security and leisure.

372
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<v Brian Boyd>Even to the extent of having festivals of ideas.

373
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<v Brian Boyd>But we don't naturally do what might be good for us in future,

374
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<v Brian Boyd>unless we enjoy it now.

375
00:25:24.700 --> 00:25:26.160
<v Brian Boyd>Art as cognitive play,

376
00:25:27.140 --> 00:25:31.240
<v Brian Boyd>appealing to our appetite for potentially meaningful patterned information,

377
00:25:31.740 --> 00:25:36.380
<v Brian Boyd>engages our minds in a self-rewarding and therefore self-motivating way.

378
00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:39.000
<v Brian Boyd>Pleasurable, compulsive,

379
00:25:40.560 --> 00:25:41.720
<v Brian Boyd>high intensity,

380
00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:44.480
<v Brian Boyd>and often repeated, like all play.

381
00:25:48.220 --> 00:25:50.660
<v Brian Boyd>Minds, as recent neuroscience has discovered,

382
00:25:50.780 --> 00:25:51.640
<v Brian Boyd>can be plastic.

383
00:25:51.820 --> 00:25:53.260
<v Brian Boyd>They can be reshaped.

384
00:25:54.140 --> 00:25:55.640
<v Brian Boyd>But not easily or rapidly,

385
00:25:55.820 --> 00:25:59.560
<v Brian Boyd>as we know from learning a new language later in life.

386
00:26:00.340 --> 00:26:03.860
<v Brian Boyd>It takes much repetition and focused attention,

387
00:26:04.080 --> 00:26:07.900
<v Audience>as first some new neural connections are made,

388
00:26:08.060 --> 00:26:09.960
<v Brian Boyd>then more on top of those,

389
00:26:10.140 --> 00:26:12.200
<v Brian Boyd>and still more on top of those.

390
00:26:13.320 --> 00:26:15.940
<v Brian Boyd>As the most successful connections strengthen,

391
00:26:15.940 --> 00:26:19.340
<v Brian Boyd>mental processing becomes more efficient

392
00:26:19.340 --> 00:26:21.780
<v Brian Boyd>until the whole network is established

393
00:26:21.780 --> 00:26:25.960
<v Brian Boyd>and increasingly efficiently tuned and fast-tracked.

394
00:26:27.980 --> 00:26:31.940
<v Brian Boyd>Play can reshape minds to become more efficient and flexible,

395
00:26:32.100 --> 00:26:33.860
<v Brian Boyd>in particular kinds of response,

396
00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:36.400
<v Brian Boyd>because it's compulsively self-rewarding.

397
00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:38.640
<v Brian Boyd>We take part in it again and again,

398
00:26:38.820 --> 00:26:40.520
<v Brian Boyd>our minds fully focused.

399
00:26:40.860 --> 00:26:44.660
<v Brian Boyd>So too, the uniquely human cognitive play of art,

400
00:26:44.800 --> 00:26:45.920
<v Brian Boyd>including art,

401
00:26:45.940 --> 00:26:47.060
<v Brian Boyd>including the art of fiction.

402
00:26:47.480 --> 00:26:50.940
<v Brian Boyd>The compulsiveness of music, images, and story

403
00:26:50.940 --> 00:26:52.900
<v Brian Boyd>reshapes human minds,

404
00:26:53.020 --> 00:26:56.900
<v Brian Boyd>just as physical play shapes animal bodies and minds.

405
00:26:57.580 --> 00:27:00.720
<v Brian Boyd>Research suggests that in positive and playful moods,

406
00:27:00.740 --> 00:27:02.340
<v Brian Boyd>we're more open to experience

407
00:27:02.940 --> 00:27:05.140
<v Brian Boyd>and learn in better and more varied ways.

408
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:10.640
<v Brian Boyd>We process oral, visual, and social information

409
00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:14.100
<v Brian Boyd>more rapidly, accurately, and flexibly,

410
00:27:14.100 --> 00:27:16.340
<v Brian Boyd>through playing in a self-rewarding way

411
00:27:16.340 --> 00:27:19.700
<v Brian Boyd>with the high-density information patterns of art.

412
00:27:20.240 --> 00:27:22.280
<v Brian Boyd>Without instruction or prompting,

413
00:27:22.340 --> 00:27:27.360
<v Brian Boyd>children engage eagerly in song, dance, drawing, or shape-making.

414
00:27:28.100 --> 00:27:29.420
<v Brian Boyd>They adore pretend play

415
00:27:30.100 --> 00:27:32.160
<v Brian Boyd>and want stories told again and again

416
00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:34.300
<v Brian Boyd>until they've mastered the challenges,

417
00:27:34.360 --> 00:27:36.500
<v Brian Boyd>the inferences that stories require.

418
00:27:37.780 --> 00:27:40.040
<v Brian Boyd>Because they're detached from the immediate,

419
00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:43.140
<v Brian Boyd>stories offer room for disinterested inquiry.

420
00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:47.520
<v Brian Boyd>I have a three-year-old grandson

421
00:27:47.520 --> 00:27:51.380
<v Brian Boyd>who doesn't really ask why people do things in real life,

422
00:27:51.560 --> 00:27:53.480
<v Brian Boyd>but if you sit him down in front of a story,

423
00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:54.400
<v Brian Boyd>he will ask,

424
00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:55.800
<v Brian Boyd>why is this character doing this?

425
00:27:55.820 --> 00:27:57.420
<v Brian Boyd>Why is this character doing that?

426
00:28:01.080 --> 00:28:04.680
<v Brian Boyd>Other functions build on this start for art

427
00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:06.160
<v Brian Boyd>in cognitive fine-tuning,

428
00:28:06.260 --> 00:28:09.100
<v Brian Boyd>and especially on fiction as cognitive play

429
00:28:09.100 --> 00:28:10.680
<v Brian Boyd>with patterns of social information.

430
00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:13.700
<v Brian Boyd>Not only does the compulsiveness of stories

431
00:28:13.700 --> 00:28:15.660
<v Brian Boyd>improve our social cognition,

432
00:28:15.900 --> 00:28:19.320
<v Brian Boyd>but also individuals who earn the attention of others

433
00:28:19.320 --> 00:28:21.100
<v Brian Boyd>through art gain in status,

434
00:28:21.420 --> 00:28:23.180
<v Brian Boyd>in the case of storytellers,

435
00:28:23.180 --> 00:28:24.600
<v Brian Boyd>from the tribe's storyteller

436
00:28:24.600 --> 00:28:26.940
<v Brian Boyd>to classic or blockbuster novelists

437
00:28:26.940 --> 00:28:28.940
<v Brian Boyd>or directors or game desires.

438
00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:30.960
<v Brian Boyd>That's supposed to be Chaucer

439
00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:33.440
<v Brian Boyd>reading the Canterbury Tales there on the right.

440
00:28:35.680 --> 00:28:39.020
<v Brian Boyd>Fiction depends on our already having imagination,

441
00:28:39.400 --> 00:28:41.960
<v Brian Boyd>but it also extends our imaginations.

442
00:28:42.180 --> 00:28:43.680
<v Brian Boyd>It takes minds that, for example,

443
00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:46.140
<v Brian Boyd>we first evolved to deal with the here and now

444
00:28:46.680 --> 00:28:47.940
<v Brian Boyd>away from the here and now

445
00:28:47.940 --> 00:28:50.480
<v Brian Boyd>so that we can see from multiple perspectives

446
00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:53.740
<v Brian Boyd>in time, place, person and mode.

447
00:28:56.760 --> 00:28:59.140
<v Brian Boyd>Most who consider the emergence...

448
00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:03.860
<v Brian Boyd>Some emergence here?

449
00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:12.340
<v Brian Boyd>Most who consider the emergence of higher intelligence

450
00:29:12.340 --> 00:29:14.040
<v Brian Boyd>accept that the main pressure

451
00:29:14.040 --> 00:29:16.420
<v Brian Boyd>on advanced intelligence has been social

452
00:29:16.420 --> 00:29:19.720
<v Brian Boyd>because other agents can make the most regular,

453
00:29:19.860 --> 00:29:22.520
<v Brian Boyd>most rapid difference to one's own fitness

454
00:29:22.520 --> 00:29:25.580
<v Brian Boyd>as predators or prey, enemies or allies,

455
00:29:25.860 --> 00:29:27.140
<v Brian Boyd>mates or rivals.

456
00:29:28.120 --> 00:29:31.380
<v Brian Boyd>The most sophisticated systems built into the human brain

457
00:29:31.380 --> 00:29:33.740
<v Brian Boyd>are therefore for understanding agents,

458
00:29:33.860 --> 00:29:36.900
<v Brian Boyd>any creature who can act, animals, humans,

459
00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:39.900
<v Brian Boyd>and even by extension unseen agents

460
00:29:39.900 --> 00:29:41.220
<v Brian Boyd>like spirits and gods.

461
00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:44.100
<v Brian Boyd>In ancient environments,

462
00:29:44.380 --> 00:29:47.140
<v Brian Boyd>the agents we evolved to track were other animals

463
00:29:47.140 --> 00:29:48.000
<v Brian Boyd>as well as people,

464
00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:50.640
<v Brian Boyd>and even in modern urban environments,

465
00:29:50.860 --> 00:29:53.260
<v Brian Boyd>children have a compulsive desire...

466
00:29:56.180 --> 00:29:58.240
<v Brian Boyd>..to learn the names of animals

467
00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:00.880
<v Brian Boyd>and to play or attend to stories with animals.

468
00:30:01.560 --> 00:30:06.600
<v Brian Boyd>Our minds want to and easily can track and differentiate agents

469
00:30:06.600 --> 00:30:08.980
<v Brian Boyd>since other agents, human or not,

470
00:30:09.160 --> 00:30:12.280
<v Brian Boyd>offer the most complex, volatile and high-stakes

471
00:30:12.280 --> 00:30:14.740
<v Brian Boyd>information that we regularly encounter.

472
00:30:16.340 --> 00:30:19.620
<v Brian Boyd>We carry that motivation and capacity

473
00:30:19.620 --> 00:30:21.540
<v Brian Boyd>into pretend play and story.

474
00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:26.860
<v Brian Boyd>Minds naturally evolved to attend to the here and now,

475
00:30:27.020 --> 00:30:30.140
<v Brian Boyd>and very young children don't easily think offline,

476
00:30:30.260 --> 00:30:32.400
<v Brian Boyd>away from the here and now.

477
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:36.280
<v Brian Boyd>They don't even easily recall their recent past,

478
00:30:36.580 --> 00:30:39.820
<v Brian Boyd>but they can easily use the present props of toys,

479
00:30:40.140 --> 00:30:41.580
<v Brian Boyd>a stick or a rag,

480
00:30:41.580 --> 00:30:43.440
<v Brian Boyd>that can be an animal or a baby,

481
00:30:43.580 --> 00:30:46.580
<v Brian Boyd>or with a modern handmade or manufactured toy,

482
00:30:46.780 --> 00:30:49.700
<v Brian Boyd>to conjure up scenarios involving agents

483
00:30:49.700 --> 00:30:51.340
<v Brian Boyd>that hook their attention.

484
00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:56.580
<v Brian Boyd>They learn to think in a sustained fashion

485
00:30:56.580 --> 00:30:59.020
<v Brian Boyd>in ways decoupled from the here and now,

486
00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:02.400
<v Brian Boyd>first by using physical props as fellow agents,

487
00:31:02.560 --> 00:31:05.380
<v Brian Boyd>then gradually by using the ready-made stories

488
00:31:05.380 --> 00:31:07.660
<v Brian Boyd>and characters of their culture.

489
00:31:09.720 --> 00:31:11.560
<v Brian Boyd>As we move into completely odd,

490
00:31:11.580 --> 00:31:12.360
<v Brian Boyd>offline fictions,

491
00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:15.140
<v Brian Boyd>we continue to try out new possibilities and roles,

492
00:31:15.460 --> 00:31:17.960
<v Brian Boyd>testing social options and social emotions.

493
00:31:18.860 --> 00:31:22.680
<v Brian Boyd>The compulsiveness of story helps us improve our skills

494
00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:23.780
<v Brian Boyd>of switching perspectives,

495
00:31:24.140 --> 00:31:25.840
<v Brian Boyd>of seeing from other points of view,

496
00:31:26.020 --> 00:31:28.680
<v Brian Boyd>of imagining alternative or counterfactual scenarios.

497
00:31:31.120 --> 00:31:34.200
<v Brian Boyd>Fiction builds on our appetite for social information,

498
00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:36.480
<v Brian Boyd>stretching our imaginations

499
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:38.940
<v Brian Boyd>by taking us from the here and now

500
00:31:39.580 --> 00:31:41.560
<v Brian Boyd>along tracks that we can easily follow,

501
00:31:41.580 --> 00:31:43.620
<v Brian Boyd>for a long time, offline,

502
00:31:44.060 --> 00:31:48.260
<v Brian Boyd>precisely because they are the fresh tracks of agents.

503
00:31:52.900 --> 00:31:55.840
<v Brian Boyd>Stories also offer a laboratory space

504
00:31:55.840 --> 00:31:57.280
<v Brian Boyd>for social thought experiments,

505
00:31:57.720 --> 00:31:59.340
<v Brian Boyd>tested on our emotions

506
00:31:59.340 --> 00:32:01.440
<v Brian Boyd>and our understanding of human nature.

507
00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:04.780
<v Brian Boyd>Fiction works as a social simulator,

508
00:32:05.080 --> 00:32:07.260
<v Brian Boyd>low-tech compared with a flight simulator,

509
00:32:07.560 --> 00:32:09.000
<v Brian Boyd>but much more often needed.

510
00:32:09.360 --> 00:32:11.560
<v Brian Boyd>We need not be confined to the idea

511
00:32:11.580 --> 00:32:11.840
<v Brian Boyd>of the given,

512
00:32:11.960 --> 00:32:14.100
<v Brian Boyd>but can turn actuality around

513
00:32:14.100 --> 00:32:16.480
<v Brian Boyd>within the much larger space of possibility,

514
00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:18.820
<v Brian Boyd>to explain how things are,

515
00:32:18.920 --> 00:32:20.600
<v Brian Boyd>or to see how they could have been,

516
00:32:20.780 --> 00:32:21.540
<v Brian Boyd>or might be.

517
00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:25.020
<v Brian Boyd>We need not explicitly remember scenarios,

518
00:32:25.260 --> 00:32:27.780
<v Brian Boyd>because fiction, as simulator,

519
00:32:27.980 --> 00:32:29.240
<v Brian Boyd>like other forms of practice,

520
00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:31.140
<v Brian Boyd>works via implicit,

521
00:32:31.380 --> 00:32:33.340
<v Brian Boyd>even more than by explicit, memory,

522
00:32:33.540 --> 00:32:35.980
<v Brian Boyd>the kind of memory that allows us to ride a bicycle,

523
00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:38.460
<v Brian Boyd>but not, perhaps, to explain to someone else

524
00:32:38.460 --> 00:32:40.360
<v Brian Boyd>how to turn left on a bicycle.

525
00:32:41.580 --> 00:32:43.280
<v Brian Boyd>Which is actually quite hard to explain.

526
00:32:45.060 --> 00:32:46.460
<v Brian Boyd>Because human behaviour...

527
00:32:46.460 --> 00:32:49.600
<v Brian Boyd>We tend to do it the wrong way when we explain.

528
00:32:50.500 --> 00:32:52.820
<v Brian Boyd>Because human behaviour is so flexible

529
00:32:52.820 --> 00:32:54.620
<v Brian Boyd>in the roles that we play,

530
00:32:54.720 --> 00:32:57.400
<v Brian Boyd>and so uncertain in the unpredictable reactions

531
00:32:57.400 --> 00:32:59.120
<v Brian Boyd>of others to our actions,

532
00:32:59.360 --> 00:33:02.280
<v Brian Boyd>and even of our actions to theirs,

533
00:33:02.460 --> 00:33:05.200
<v Brian Boyd>we need to model possibilities under uncertainty,

534
00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:06.780
<v Brian Boyd>to plan for uncertainty.

535
00:33:07.480 --> 00:33:11.080
<v Brian Boyd>Stories offer a rich way of exploring fraught situations,

536
00:33:11.080 --> 00:33:12.080
<v Brian Boyd>without danger,

537
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:14.260
<v Brian Boyd>and of acquiring a strong sense

538
00:33:14.260 --> 00:33:18.640
<v Brian Boyd>of what others regard as good or bad moves and dispositions.

539
00:33:20.780 --> 00:33:23.760
<v Brian Boyd>Highly social animals have also evolved

540
00:33:23.760 --> 00:33:25.460
<v Brian Boyd>to attune themselves to one another.

541
00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:28.880
<v Brian Boyd>Emotional attunement in the compulsive,

542
00:33:29.080 --> 00:33:31.320
<v Brian Boyd>cognitively appealing form of stories

543
00:33:32.080 --> 00:33:33.440
<v Brian Boyd>improves social cohesion,

544
00:33:33.600 --> 00:33:37.160
<v Brian Boyd>as does the creation of engaging pro-social models.

545
00:33:38.380 --> 00:33:41.060
<v Brian Boyd>Any gain in the ability to attune

546
00:33:41.080 --> 00:33:42.180
<v Brian Boyd>one's feelings to others,

547
00:33:42.340 --> 00:33:44.100
<v Brian Boyd>and to motivate attunement,

548
00:33:44.760 --> 00:33:46.960
<v Brian Boyd>can increase cohesion and cooperation,

549
00:33:47.500 --> 00:33:50.240
<v Brian Boyd>and therefore offer a competitive advantage

550
00:33:50.240 --> 00:33:51.560
<v Brian Boyd>against other groups.

551
00:33:51.860 --> 00:33:54.220
<v Brian Boyd>Think work songs, battle songs,

552
00:33:54.580 --> 00:33:57.380
<v Brian Boyd>anthems, hymns, parables, heroic stories.

553
00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:02.200
<v Brian Boyd>Much of the emotion generated by story,

554
00:34:02.420 --> 00:34:04.100
<v Brian Boyd>the fear, hope, and suspense,

555
00:34:04.420 --> 00:34:05.900
<v Brian Boyd>comes from our anxiety

556
00:34:05.900 --> 00:34:08.460
<v Brian Boyd>over whether the characters, good and bad,

557
00:34:08.580 --> 00:34:09.920
<v Brian Boyd>will get what they deserve.

558
00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:12.340
<v Brian Boyd>Not only does fiction reflect

559
00:34:12.340 --> 00:34:14.460
<v Brian Boyd>an instinctive human morality,

560
00:34:14.660 --> 00:34:16.260
<v Brian Boyd>a pro-social impulse,

561
00:34:16.600 --> 00:34:18.540
<v Brian Boyd>but it also reinforces it.

562
00:34:19.040 --> 00:34:22.080
<v Brian Boyd>Stories help make societies work better,

563
00:34:22.140 --> 00:34:25.780
<v Brian Boyd>by encouraging us to be more like pro-social protagonists,

564
00:34:25.900 --> 00:34:27.600
<v Brian Boyd>and less like the would-be

565
00:34:27.600 --> 00:34:29.980
<v Brian Boyd>domineering antagonists of stories.

566
00:34:31.480 --> 00:34:34.460
<v Brian Boyd>The account of art, and especially of fiction,

567
00:34:34.600 --> 00:34:35.540
<v Brian Boyd>that I propose,

568
00:34:35.940 --> 00:34:39.120
<v Brian Boyd>involves no unique morphological traits,

569
00:34:39.120 --> 00:34:41.180
<v Brian Boyd>although of course I'd be fascinated and delighted

570
00:34:41.180 --> 00:34:42.140
<v Brian Boyd>if they were discovered.

571
00:34:42.920 --> 00:34:44.280
<v Brian Boyd>In the case of fiction,

572
00:34:44.460 --> 00:34:46.400
<v Brian Boyd>I assume we'd already developed

573
00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:48.560
<v Brian Boyd>both systems of event comprehension,

574
00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:50.700
<v Brian Boyd>like the psychological capacities

575
00:34:50.700 --> 00:34:52.480
<v Brian Boyd>known as theory of mind,

576
00:34:52.780 --> 00:34:55.100
<v Brian Boyd>the ability to understand others

577
00:34:55.100 --> 00:34:57.100
<v Brian Boyd>in terms not just of actions,

578
00:34:57.200 --> 00:35:00.380
<v Brian Boyd>but also of intentions, desires, even beliefs,

579
00:35:01.320 --> 00:35:03.360
<v Brian Boyd>that make it possible to track

580
00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:05.480
<v Brian Boyd>the full complexity of social events,

581
00:35:06.140 --> 00:35:07.840
<v Brian Boyd>and the capacity for language

582
00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:10.220
<v Brian Boyd>that makes it possible to communicate events.

583
00:35:11.480 --> 00:35:13.420
<v Brian Boyd>But our predilection for art,

584
00:35:13.500 --> 00:35:14.920
<v Brian Boyd>and especially the art of fiction,

585
00:35:15.140 --> 00:35:17.260
<v Brian Boyd>involves motivational traits.

586
00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:21.120
<v Brian Boyd>Humans have the same compulsion

587
00:35:21.120 --> 00:35:23.780
<v Brian Boyd>as other animals to play at physical activities,

588
00:35:23.980 --> 00:35:25.220
<v Brian Boyd>and like them too,

589
00:35:25.340 --> 00:35:28.980
<v Brian Boyd>especially at activities associated with flight and fight.

590
00:35:29.740 --> 00:35:31.120
<v Brian Boyd>Children, especially boys,

591
00:35:31.400 --> 00:35:33.180
<v Brian Boyd>also have a special motivation,

592
00:35:33.240 --> 00:35:35.280
<v Brian Boyd>cross-culturally, to throw stones,

593
00:35:35.420 --> 00:35:37.540
<v Brian Boyd>sticks, balls, darts, frisberries,

594
00:35:37.540 --> 00:35:41.080
<v Brian Boyd>fruit, boomerangs, snowballs, and much more,

595
00:35:41.220 --> 00:35:44.240
<v Brian Boyd>presumably in reflection of a developmental preparation

596
00:35:44.240 --> 00:35:46.500
<v Brian Boyd>for our unique human tendency

597
00:35:46.500 --> 00:35:49.100
<v Brian Boyd>to use projectiles for attack and defence.

598
00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:52.560
<v Brian Boyd>I should almost suggest

599
00:35:52.560 --> 00:35:54.180
<v Brian Boyd>that you don't read the Calvin and Hobbes

600
00:35:54.180 --> 00:35:56.920
<v Brian Boyd>because it kind of counters my case

601
00:35:56.920 --> 00:35:57.860
<v Brian Boyd>for the benefits of art.

602
00:35:58.220 --> 00:35:59.700
<v Brian Boyd>But then it's only fiction.

603
00:36:02.560 --> 00:36:03.840
<v Brian Boyd>In the same way,

604
00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:05.720
<v Brian Boyd>we extend ordinary animal play

605
00:36:05.720 --> 00:36:07.520
<v Brian Boyd>into our play with patterned information,

606
00:36:07.520 --> 00:36:10.240
<v Brian Boyd>in preparation for our unique tendency

607
00:36:10.240 --> 00:36:12.820
<v Brian Boyd>to use information for attack, defence,

608
00:36:13.200 --> 00:36:14.180
<v Brian Boyd>and everything else.

609
00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:18.420
<v Brian Boyd>Few filmmakers have produced

610
00:36:18.420 --> 00:36:21.140
<v Brian Boyd>such searing explorations of the human condition

611
00:36:21.140 --> 00:36:22.460
<v Brian Boyd>as Ingmar Bergman,

612
00:36:22.640 --> 00:36:25.220
<v Brian Boyd>but he described filmmaking as

613
00:36:25.220 --> 00:36:26.800
<v Brian Boyd>like returning to childhood,

614
00:36:27.080 --> 00:36:28.980
<v Brian Boyd>a game, a kind of play.

615
00:36:29.720 --> 00:36:32.380
<v Brian Boyd>The Nobel Prize winning Turkish novelist,

616
00:36:32.380 --> 00:36:34.880
<v Brian Boyd>Orhan Pamuk, writes for 10 hours a day.

617
00:36:35.380 --> 00:36:37.400
<v Brian Boyd>Yes, I'm a hard worker, he says,

618
00:36:37.520 --> 00:36:39.240
<v Brian Boyd>I'm in love with what I do.

619
00:36:39.480 --> 00:36:42.100
<v Brian Boyd>I enjoy sitting at my desk like a child

620
00:36:42.100 --> 00:36:43.280
<v Brian Boyd>playing with his toys.

621
00:36:43.560 --> 00:36:44.800
<v Brian Boyd>It's work, essentially,

622
00:36:45.020 --> 00:36:46.780
<v Brian Boyd>but it's fun and games also.

623
00:36:47.260 --> 00:36:50.780
<v Brian Boyd>If you read his marvellous autobiography, Istanbul,

624
00:36:51.140 --> 00:36:53.500
<v Brian Boyd>it's really the story of how he decided to become,

625
00:36:53.660 --> 00:36:56.320
<v Brian Boyd>he ended up becoming a writer rather than a painter.

626
00:36:56.500 --> 00:36:58.580
<v Brian Boyd>This is one of his manuscripts showing

627
00:36:58.580 --> 00:37:00.580
<v Brian Boyd>his doodling and playing in the margin.

628
00:37:02.360 --> 00:37:04.060
<v Brian Boyd>Stories, factual and fictional,

629
00:37:05.020 --> 00:37:07.400
<v Brian Boyd>raise many questions for art in general.

630
00:37:07.400 --> 00:37:08.700
<v Brian Boyd>In literature in particular,

631
00:37:08.800 --> 00:37:10.740
<v Brian Boyd>and for psychology and neuroscience,

632
00:37:11.180 --> 00:37:13.600
<v Brian Boyd>beyond the question of whether fiction is adaptive.

633
00:37:14.220 --> 00:37:16.360
<v Brian Boyd>Above all, how central,

634
00:37:16.520 --> 00:37:19.040
<v Brian Boyd>and perhaps how enabling or how constricting,

635
00:37:19.220 --> 00:37:22.000
<v Brian Boyd>is our tendency to think in narrative terms.

636
00:37:23.460 --> 00:37:26.060
<v Brian Boyd>Although we know much more than we used to

637
00:37:26.060 --> 00:37:27.300
<v Brian Boyd>about stories and minds,

638
00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:30.320
<v Brian Boyd>neuroscience can't yet explain fully

639
00:37:31.400 --> 00:37:33.420
<v Brian Boyd>how minds turn events into narratives,

640
00:37:33.620 --> 00:37:36.580
<v Brian Boyd>and narratives into inferred and imagined events.

641
00:37:38.180 --> 00:37:40.480
<v Brian Boyd>The neuroscientist Antonio Damasio

642
00:37:40.480 --> 00:37:43.140
<v Brian Boyd>proposes convergent zones in the brain

643
00:37:43.140 --> 00:37:46.500
<v Brian Boyd>where, say, the separate where and what

644
00:37:46.500 --> 00:37:49.160
<v Brian Boyd>visual pathways in the mind converge

645
00:37:49.160 --> 00:37:51.880
<v Brian Boyd>to allow us to understand both the nature

646
00:37:51.880 --> 00:37:53.240
<v Brian Boyd>and location of objects,

647
00:37:53.480 --> 00:37:55.060
<v Brian Boyd>and to understand both,

648
00:37:55.240 --> 00:37:58.380
<v Brian Boyd>and to feed and turn into higher level convergent zones

649
00:37:58.380 --> 00:38:01.340
<v Brian Boyd>where information from still more different kinds of pathways,

650
00:38:01.580 --> 00:38:04.780
<v Brian Boyd>like visual and oral and emotional, meet.

651
00:38:05.460 --> 00:38:07.380
<v Brian Boyd>Does narrative naturally lead to

652
00:38:07.400 --> 00:38:09.760
<v Brian Boyd>or actually arise from or require or create

653
00:38:09.760 --> 00:38:11.640
<v Brian Boyd>a super-convergence zone?

654
00:38:12.040 --> 00:38:14.880
<v Brian Boyd>Do convergence or super-convergence zones

655
00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:16.920
<v Brian Boyd>often lead to false inferences?

656
00:38:17.600 --> 00:38:21.160
<v Brian Boyd>In the 1920s, the Russian filmmaker Kuleshov

657
00:38:21.160 --> 00:38:24.300
<v Brian Boyd>famously shot the actor Ivan Mozhukhin

658
00:38:24.300 --> 00:38:26.900
<v Brian Boyd>intercut with a child in a coffin,

659
00:38:27.140 --> 00:38:30.140
<v Brian Boyd>a bowl of soup, and an attractive young woman.

660
00:38:30.940 --> 00:38:34.260
<v Brian Boyd>The director Pudovkin recalled that audiences

661
00:38:34.260 --> 00:38:36.580
<v Brian Boyd>raved about Mozhukhin's acting.

662
00:38:36.580 --> 00:38:39.500
<v Brian Boyd>The deep sorrow with which he looked at the dead child,

663
00:38:39.800 --> 00:38:41.580
<v Brian Boyd>the hunger with which he looked at the soup,

664
00:38:41.800 --> 00:38:43.520
<v Brian Boyd>the lust with which he looked at the woman.

665
00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:46.620
<v Brian Boyd>But as you can see from the simultaneous presentation,

666
00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:49.840
<v Brian Boyd>in all three cases, the face was exactly the same.

667
00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:55.500
<v Brian Boyd>Nature doesn't evolve perfection,

668
00:38:55.800 --> 00:38:58.380
<v Brian Boyd>but merely evolves in the direction

669
00:38:58.380 --> 00:39:00.220
<v Brian Boyd>of whatever chance throws up

670
00:39:00.220 --> 00:39:02.380
<v Brian Boyd>that's measurably better in its effects

671
00:39:02.380 --> 00:39:03.920
<v Brian Boyd>than other available options.

672
00:39:04.560 --> 00:39:06.560
<v Brian Boyd>Still, that allows nature often to

673
00:39:06.580 --> 00:39:08.400
<v Brian Boyd>evolve excellent design.

674
00:39:09.460 --> 00:39:11.020
<v Brian Boyd>Our eyes are a good example.

675
00:39:11.340 --> 00:39:13.980
<v Brian Boyd>We see only some parts of the light spectrum,

676
00:39:14.160 --> 00:39:17.380
<v Brian Boyd>not infrared or ultraviolet, as some species do.

677
00:39:17.700 --> 00:39:20.460
<v Brian Boyd>We see poorly in the dark compared with other species.

678
00:39:20.840 --> 00:39:23.100
<v Brian Boyd>We have a blind spot in our visual field

679
00:39:23.100 --> 00:39:25.720
<v Brian Boyd>because our optic nerve has to go through the retina,

680
00:39:25.860 --> 00:39:28.120
<v Brian Boyd>unlike those of octopi and so on.

681
00:39:28.540 --> 00:39:30.740
<v Brian Boyd>Yet we also have excellent design features

682
00:39:30.740 --> 00:39:33.600
<v Brian Boyd>in our visual processing that coordinate

683
00:39:33.600 --> 00:39:36.560
<v Brian Boyd>the what and the where, outlines and orientations,

684
00:39:36.580 --> 00:39:39.060
<v Brian Boyd>movement and trichromatic colour,

685
00:39:39.200 --> 00:39:41.580
<v Brian Boyd>the ability to focus on central detail

686
00:39:41.580 --> 00:39:44.060
<v Brian Boyd>and to scan the periphery at the same time,

687
00:39:44.280 --> 00:39:46.840
<v Brian Boyd>special subroutines for facial recognition

688
00:39:47.580 --> 00:39:51.660
<v Brian Boyd>and for the emotional impact of a face recognised, and so on.

689
00:39:54.580 --> 00:39:57.560
<v Brian Boyd>In the same way, the narrative cast of our minds is imperfect.

690
00:39:58.100 --> 00:40:00.840
<v Brian Boyd>It's important for us, and always has been,

691
00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:04.140
<v Brian Boyd>to track other agents, other creatures that can act,

692
00:40:04.280 --> 00:40:06.560
<v Brian Boyd>and important to track patterns of other people,

693
00:40:06.580 --> 00:40:06.820
<v Brian Boyd>and to track the patterns of association.

694
00:40:07.680 --> 00:40:11.640
<v Brian Boyd>But those dispositions make us prone to construct narratives

695
00:40:11.640 --> 00:40:16.140
<v Brian Boyd>involving unseen agents, spirits or gods,

696
00:40:16.240 --> 00:40:18.440
<v Brian Boyd>to help explain the unknown,

697
00:40:18.740 --> 00:40:23.200
<v Brian Boyd>and to develop superstitions in an attempt to avert the unwanted.

698
00:40:24.100 --> 00:40:27.920
<v Brian Boyd>Our predisposition to explain things in terms of action

699
00:40:27.920 --> 00:40:32.200
<v Brian Boyd>in the mid-range rather than at atomic or geological speeds,

700
00:40:32.520 --> 00:40:35.560
<v Brian Boyd>and in terms of individual agents rather than,

701
00:40:35.560 --> 00:40:40.060
<v Brian Boyd>as the consequence of many agents and many non-agential causes,

702
00:40:40.280 --> 00:40:42.440
<v Brian Boyd>as in problems like climate change,

703
00:40:42.840 --> 00:40:45.980
<v Brian Boyd>means that we can find it particularly difficult

704
00:40:45.980 --> 00:40:49.020
<v Brian Boyd>to feel an emotional impact of possibilities

705
00:40:49.560 --> 00:40:52.620
<v Brian Boyd>beyond our usual narrative habits of thought.

706
00:40:54.420 --> 00:40:58.640
<v Brian Boyd>We've evolved through stories to be able to plan or react swiftly

707
00:40:58.640 --> 00:41:02.660
<v Brian Boyd>to short-term, small-scale social uncertainty.

708
00:41:02.820 --> 00:41:05.540
<v Brian Boyd>We've not evolved, and probably never will,

709
00:41:05.560 --> 00:41:08.360
<v Brian Boyd>and nothing could have, to plan on the global scale

710
00:41:08.360 --> 00:41:10.180
<v Brian Boyd>for novel kinds of uncertainty.

711
00:41:10.740 --> 00:41:14.240
<v Brian Boyd>We can use stories to model possible outcomes,

712
00:41:14.580 --> 00:41:17.460
<v Brian Boyd>especially the undesirable ones we want to avoid,

713
00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:21.740
<v Brian Boyd>but we have to go beyond the stories that come most easily to us

714
00:41:21.740 --> 00:41:26.020
<v Brian Boyd>to plan for the uncertainties of the increasingly rapid changes

715
00:41:26.560 --> 00:41:30.480
<v Brian Boyd>that we can now unleash, but not necessarily tame.

716
00:41:31.540 --> 00:41:32.340
<v Brian Boyd>Thank you.

717
00:41:37.640 --> 00:41:38.100
<v Brian Boyd>APPLAUSE

718
00:41:41.200 --> 00:41:44.160
<v Chair>Well, thank you very much, Brian, for a fascinating talk.

719
00:41:44.920 --> 00:41:47.080
<v Speaker 1>There's a microphone at the back.

720
00:41:47.740 --> 00:41:49.900
<v Chair>We are recording this, so it is kind of...

721
00:41:49.900 --> 00:41:53.180
<v Chair>While this is a room where you could use your I-mean-it voice,

722
00:41:54.380 --> 00:41:56.740
<v Chair>we're recording this session, so please use the microphone

723
00:41:56.740 --> 00:41:57.900
<v Chair>if you have any questions.

724
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:00.580
<v Chair>Please move towards the microphone.

725
00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:03.700
<v Chair>I had... Just... Well, you're moving.

726
00:42:04.020 --> 00:42:05.500
<v Speaker 5>Go.

727
00:42:05.560 --> 00:42:08.480
<v Chair>in queue, please. Sorry, I just...

728
00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:10.300
<v Chair>No, you go first. That's fine.

729
00:42:11.700 --> 00:42:15.500
<v Speaker 5>I was interested when you said that you thought that fiction

730
00:42:15.500 --> 00:42:17.620
<v Speaker 5>was the last of the arts to be developed,

731
00:42:17.800 --> 00:42:23.560
<v Speaker 5>and it occurred to me that before fiction was able to be recorded

732
00:42:23.560 --> 00:42:25.800
<v Speaker 5>in any way, when there was just an oral tradition,

733
00:42:26.340 --> 00:42:30.540
<v Speaker 5>that possibly prehistoric mothers told their children stories

734
00:42:30.540 --> 00:42:34.420
<v Speaker 5>of wicked witches to keep them out of the marshes or the forests

735
00:42:34.420 --> 00:42:35.540
<v Speaker 5>where the sabre-toothed...

736
00:42:35.540 --> 00:42:36.740
<v Speaker 5>The tiger might lurk.

737
00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:39.400
<v Brian Boyd>Oh, yes, certainly, that would have been the case,

738
00:42:39.520 --> 00:42:45.200
<v Brian Boyd>but that would be maybe from 150,000 to 100,000 years ago

739
00:42:45.200 --> 00:42:46.700
<v Brian Boyd>that that would have been possible,

740
00:42:46.900 --> 00:42:49.560
<v Brian Boyd>because not until then did we have a language rich enough

741
00:42:50.540 --> 00:42:54.640
<v Brian Boyd>to have the kinds of narratives that involve witches and so on.

742
00:42:56.740 --> 00:42:57.780
<v Brian Boyd>So, yeah.

743
00:42:59.800 --> 00:43:04.040
<v Brian Boyd>I don't know... Well, of course, we probably will never know these things,

744
00:43:04.040 --> 00:43:13.900
<v Brian Boyd>but children probably began imagining little games with pretend dolls or...

745
00:43:13.900 --> 00:43:19.340
<v Brian Boyd>There's a wonderful story that I use in the book of this...

746
00:43:20.040 --> 00:43:25.280
<v Brian Boyd>A chimp that was at a wildlife reserve in Africa

747
00:43:27.040 --> 00:43:31.480
<v Brian Boyd>was a very social chimp of a very unsocial mother,

748
00:43:31.580 --> 00:43:33.180
<v Brian Boyd>and the...

749
00:43:34.340 --> 00:43:38.640
<v Brian Boyd>Richard Wrangham, a primatologist, noticed the chimp playing with this little stick

750
00:43:39.140 --> 00:43:42.700
<v Brian Boyd>and lying on its back, playing with it as a mother plays with a baby,

751
00:43:42.780 --> 00:43:44.920
<v Brian Boyd>and then putting it down beside itself to sleep at night.

752
00:43:45.480 --> 00:43:47.160
<v Brian Boyd>And he thought, you know, this is...

753
00:43:47.860 --> 00:43:50.260
<v Brian Boyd>This is like Kakami's little baby toy.

754
00:43:51.760 --> 00:43:53.080
<v Brian Boyd>But he thought nothing more of it.

755
00:43:53.140 --> 00:43:55.640
<v Brian Boyd>And then he went away, came back three months later,

756
00:43:55.740 --> 00:43:59.620
<v Brian Boyd>and a couple of the African field workers had labelled the little stick

757
00:43:59.620 --> 00:44:01.700
<v Brian Boyd>and put it up on the wall, Kakama's baby toy,

758
00:44:01.700 --> 00:44:04.200
<v Brian Boyd>because they had seen exactly the same thing.

759
00:44:04.620 --> 00:44:06.520
<v Brian Boyd>So if it goes...

760
00:44:06.520 --> 00:44:10.460
<v Brian Boyd>If play with other critters goes back that far,

761
00:44:10.580 --> 00:44:13.080
<v Brian Boyd>well, you know, maybe not complex narratives

762
00:44:13.080 --> 00:44:18.440
<v Brian Boyd>like those involving witches and ogres in the swamps and so on,

763
00:44:18.520 --> 00:44:23.580
<v Brian Boyd>but certainly perhaps just private play.

764
00:44:23.940 --> 00:44:25.620
<v Brian Boyd>I don't know. Yeah.

765
00:44:26.040 --> 00:44:28.880
<v Chair>I reckon stories about wolves would come in pretty early.

766
00:44:29.040 --> 00:44:29.300
<v Chair>Yeah.

767
00:44:29.740 --> 00:44:30.340
<v Chair>LAUGHTER

768
00:44:31.700 --> 00:44:33.060
<v Chair>And, of course, we still tell them.

769
00:44:33.220 --> 00:44:34.620
<v Chair>Are there any other questions?

770
00:44:34.700 --> 00:44:39.420
<v Chair>Please think of a question, and we've got 15 minutes to go.

771
00:44:39.640 --> 00:44:40.040
<v Brian Boyd>The...

772
00:44:41.600 --> 00:44:44.760
<v Brian Boyd>A literary scholar who's married to an anthropologist,

773
00:44:44.980 --> 00:44:46.640
<v Brian Boyd>Michelle Scalise Sugiyama,

774
00:44:46.740 --> 00:44:53.340
<v Brian Boyd>works a lot on what she thinks is the very early origins of story

775
00:44:53.340 --> 00:44:58.180
<v Brian Boyd>in terms of the kinds of information and the kinds of threats and so on

776
00:44:58.180 --> 00:45:00.480
<v Brian Boyd>that could be conveyed through story.

777
00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:04.880
<v Brian Boyd>And, of course, our original story is just so saturated

778
00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:10.120
<v Brian Boyd>with possibilities...opportunities and threats in the local environment.

779
00:45:10.920 --> 00:45:11.140
<v Brian Boyd>Yeah.

780
00:45:11.220 --> 00:45:11.400
<v Brian Boyd>Sir.

781
00:45:12.260 --> 00:45:13.680
<v Audience>Thanks very much for your talk, Brian.

782
00:45:13.740 --> 00:45:14.880
<v Audience>I found it absolutely fascinating.

783
00:45:15.540 --> 00:45:18.960
<v Audience>I'm an actor, so play is important to me,

784
00:45:19.040 --> 00:45:20.840
<v Audience>and I've played a lot of roles.

785
00:45:21.780 --> 00:45:23.880
<v Audience>And I like the word play,

786
00:45:23.960 --> 00:45:26.660
<v Audience>and I like the fact that we use it in our language the way we do,

787
00:45:26.780 --> 00:45:29.560
<v Audience>and I haven't stopped playing, I suppose, since I was about three.

788
00:45:30.700 --> 00:45:33.560
<v Audience>But what I wanted to ask you was the idea of fiction

789
00:45:33.560 --> 00:45:36.260
<v Audience>and the way that it influences our emotions,

790
00:45:36.380 --> 00:45:38.960
<v Audience>because the best engagement I have in fiction

791
00:45:38.960 --> 00:45:43.520
<v Audience>is to touch the emotions of a large room full of people every night.

792
00:45:44.380 --> 00:45:46.300
<v Audience>So I wonder whether you could address that,

793
00:45:46.380 --> 00:45:51.940
<v Audience>and in terms of the way that our new media are going to take fiction,

794
00:45:52.060 --> 00:45:58.300
<v Audience>how will our emotions be affected by fiction in our new media?

795
00:45:59.560 --> 00:45:59.760
<v Audience>OK.

796
00:46:01.040 --> 00:46:05.240
<v Brian Boyd>Well, yes, I certainly talk a lot in the book about emotions,

797
00:46:05.320 --> 00:46:09.620
<v Brian Boyd>and the fact that we automatically respond,

798
00:46:10.640 --> 00:46:15.020
<v Brian Boyd>even when we're hearing a story at second hand or third hand or whatever,

799
00:46:15.220 --> 00:46:19.780
<v Brian Boyd>we respond as if we were a bystander watching it, as somebody...

800
00:46:21.900 --> 00:46:24.980
<v Brian Boyd>Sometimes we talk about identification with fictional characters,

801
00:46:25.040 --> 00:46:29.360
<v Brian Boyd>and perhaps we do when we are exposed to a character's predicament,

802
00:46:29.560 --> 00:46:31.140
<v Brian Boyd>and their character and so on,

803
00:46:31.180 --> 00:46:34.620
<v Brian Boyd>and especially, say, in a novel where we're allowed inside their heads,

804
00:46:34.720 --> 00:46:36.660
<v Brian Boyd>we become very close to them.

805
00:46:36.700 --> 00:46:38.960
<v Brian Boyd>But even in more ordinary circumstances,

806
00:46:39.040 --> 00:46:42.640
<v Brian Boyd>we respond as bystanders to the predicaments of others,

807
00:46:42.860 --> 00:46:46.100
<v Brian Boyd>and, yes, our emotions are tapped very, very deeply.

808
00:46:47.560 --> 00:46:48.520
<v Brian Boyd>I don't...

809
00:46:49.360 --> 00:46:52.640
<v Brian Boyd>Well, I can only imagine that future forms of storytelling

810
00:46:53.660 --> 00:46:56.440
<v Brian Boyd>will find even better ways of hooking the emotions.

811
00:46:56.600 --> 00:46:57.920
<v Brian Boyd>I mean, think of film,

812
00:46:57.920 --> 00:47:01.600
<v Brian Boyd>the kind of Bergman whom I showed there

813
00:47:01.600 --> 00:47:07.420
<v Brian Boyd>says that the great gift of film to our species

814
00:47:07.420 --> 00:47:11.060
<v Brian Boyd>is our exposure to the human face at this enormous level,

815
00:47:11.160 --> 00:47:13.200
<v Brian Boyd>and we're so attuned...

816
00:47:13.200 --> 00:47:18.680
<v Brian Boyd>In fact, recent experiments have shown that if we have...

817
00:47:18.680 --> 00:47:22.000
<v Brian Boyd>If there's an image of, say, a face in fear

818
00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:25.860
<v Brian Boyd>flashed up onto the screen for less than a 24th of a second,

819
00:47:26.020 --> 00:47:27.900
<v Brian Boyd>so too fast for conscious reading,

820
00:47:27.920 --> 00:47:28.260
<v Brian Boyd>or too fast for recognition,

821
00:47:28.460 --> 00:47:32.440
<v Brian Boyd>our face will actually adjust, attune ourselves,

822
00:47:32.820 --> 00:47:36.240
<v Brian Boyd>without our knowing that we've even seen a fearful face.

823
00:47:37.140 --> 00:47:41.540
<v Brian Boyd>So that's an example of how contagious shared emotion can be.

824
00:47:41.860 --> 00:47:45.380
<v Brian Boyd>So film is able to use all kinds of devices

825
00:47:45.380 --> 00:47:47.300
<v Brian Boyd>to amplify emotion,

826
00:47:47.580 --> 00:47:49.600
<v Brian Boyd>things like, of course, special effects

827
00:47:49.600 --> 00:47:53.900
<v Brian Boyd>to make danger very immediate and real,

828
00:47:54.080 --> 00:47:57.900
<v Brian Boyd>and the different kinds of emotional patterns

829
00:47:57.920 --> 00:47:59.840
<v Brian Boyd>in soundtrack music and so on.

830
00:48:00.280 --> 00:48:04.000
<v Brian Boyd>And, of course, video games have found ways

831
00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:09.880
<v Brian Boyd>of engaging our direct participation in the story, if you like,

832
00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:12.600
<v Brian Boyd>and no doubt they will be able to develop that still further,

833
00:48:12.680 --> 00:48:14.620
<v Brian Boyd>which, of course, amplifies the emotions even more.

834
00:48:15.260 --> 00:48:17.040
<v Brian Boyd>So, yes, it's not going to...

835
00:48:17.040 --> 00:48:19.960
<v Brian Boyd>The emotions are not going to shrink in storytelling, that's for sure.

836
00:48:20.540 --> 00:48:20.980
<v Brian Boyd>Thanks.

837
00:48:21.080 --> 00:48:23.420
<v Chair>Indeed, I find film...

838
00:48:23.420 --> 00:48:27.440
<v Chair>I'm such a dinosaur that I find film too bossy on my emotions,

839
00:48:27.440 --> 00:48:29.140
<v Chair>so I actually don't like film

840
00:48:29.140 --> 00:48:31.480
<v Chair>because there are so many cues that tell me how to feel.

841
00:48:31.660 --> 00:48:36.040
<v Chair>So I suspect multimedia is not how I'm going to spend my fading years.

842
00:48:36.260 --> 00:48:36.820
<v Chair>Sir?

843
00:48:38.340 --> 00:48:40.980
<v Speaker 6>Yes, in the Native American culture,

844
00:48:41.100 --> 00:48:45.460
<v Speaker 6>I've been told that when a person becomes isolated from the community,

845
00:48:46.760 --> 00:48:50.220
<v Speaker 6>which threatens the survival of a small community,

846
00:48:50.720 --> 00:48:52.920
<v Speaker 6>the medicine man or medicine woman

847
00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:56.600
<v Speaker 6>will often ask three questions of that person to bring them back.

848
00:48:57.320 --> 00:48:59.720
<v Speaker 6>They will ask,

849
00:48:59.920 --> 00:49:01.400
<v Speaker 6>when did you stop singing?

850
00:49:01.940 --> 00:49:03.700
<v Speaker 6>When did you stop dancing?

851
00:49:04.380 --> 00:49:06.860
<v Speaker 6>When did you stop listening to the stories?

852
00:49:07.560 --> 00:49:10.480
<v Speaker 6>And by finding out when that happened,

853
00:49:10.520 --> 00:49:13.020
<v Speaker 6>they can often determine

854
00:49:14.520 --> 00:49:17.800
<v Speaker 6>quite where the fracture happened in that person's psyche.

855
00:49:18.520 --> 00:49:20.860
<v Speaker 6>I mean, as in the Western world,

856
00:49:20.920 --> 00:49:23.040
<v Speaker 6>we've stopped singing together.

857
00:49:23.380 --> 00:49:25.700
<v Speaker 6>We largely have stopped dancing.

858
00:49:28.140 --> 00:49:28.820
<v Speaker 6>I...maybe...

859
00:49:28.820 --> 00:49:29.560
<v Speaker 6>Depends how old you are.

860
00:49:29.800 --> 00:49:30.220
<v Speaker 6>Yeah.

861
00:49:30.660 --> 00:49:32.180
<v Speaker 6>Maybe, you know,

862
00:49:32.700 --> 00:49:34.640
<v Speaker 6>maybe storytelling and story listening

863
00:49:34.640 --> 00:49:36.500
<v Speaker 6>is absolutely crucial

864
00:49:36.500 --> 00:49:39.380
<v Speaker 6>to bringing that superconvergence

865
00:49:39.380 --> 00:49:41.180
<v Speaker 6>that you talked about,

866
00:49:42.680 --> 00:49:44.020
<v Speaker 6>that...in our brain,

867
00:49:44.140 --> 00:49:46.820
<v Speaker 6>it might actually help...

868
00:49:49.180 --> 00:49:50.560
<v Speaker 6>..mend or heal

869
00:49:50.560 --> 00:49:53.940
<v Speaker 6>a highly alienated society.

870
00:49:54.460 --> 00:49:55.680
<v Speaker 6>I mean, could you just comment?

871
00:49:55.700 --> 00:49:58.160
<v Speaker 6>Yes, I think that's true.

872
00:49:58.320 --> 00:49:59.380
<v Brian Boyd>And I think, you know,

873
00:49:59.420 --> 00:50:01.340
<v Brian Boyd>we may not sing together,

874
00:50:01.400 --> 00:50:03.200
<v Brian Boyd>but you imagine...

875
00:50:03.200 --> 00:50:04.700
<v Brian Boyd>Well, you count up...

876
00:50:04.700 --> 00:50:07.660
<v Brian Boyd>Do a study of how much music people listen to

877
00:50:07.660 --> 00:50:11.480
<v Brian Boyd>in a modern world with their iPods and radios and so on,

878
00:50:11.580 --> 00:50:14.040
<v Brian Boyd>and they may not be actively singing themselves,

879
00:50:14.700 --> 00:50:16.920
<v Brian Boyd>but they're certainly not...

880
00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:19.020
<v Brian Boyd>I would imagine they're not exposed to music

881
00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:24.860
<v Brian Boyd>less often than in a tribal culture.

882
00:50:25.700 --> 00:50:28.720
<v Brian Boyd>And, of course...

883
00:50:29.860 --> 00:50:31.220
<v Brian Boyd>Of course...

884
00:50:33.780 --> 00:50:35.820
<v Brian Boyd>Not quite an answer to your question,

885
00:50:35.860 --> 00:50:37.580
<v Brian Boyd>but partially prompted by it.

886
00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:42.100
<v Brian Boyd>There's a question about

887
00:50:42.700 --> 00:50:44.640
<v Brian Boyd>whether something is adaptive...

888
00:50:44.640 --> 00:50:46.680
<v Brian Boyd>..that was adaptive in the past is still adaptive.

889
00:50:47.700 --> 00:50:50.480
<v Brian Boyd>Something like our taste for sweet and fat

890
00:50:50.480 --> 00:50:52.640
<v Brian Boyd>was very adaptive in the past

891
00:50:52.640 --> 00:50:54.560
<v Brian Boyd>when these high-energy sources

892
00:50:54.560 --> 00:50:55.220
<v Brian Boyd>of...

893
00:50:56.860 --> 00:50:57.420
<v Brian Boyd>..of...

894
00:50:58.680 --> 00:51:01.640
<v Brian Boyd>..food were worth searching out.

895
00:51:01.740 --> 00:51:05.920
<v Brian Boyd>Of course, nowadays, when we've got candy bars and so on,

896
00:51:06.820 --> 00:51:08.640
<v Brian Boyd>fruit juices too available,

897
00:51:08.940 --> 00:51:11.120
<v Brian Boyd>we risk an obesity epidemic.

898
00:51:11.440 --> 00:51:13.840
<v Brian Boyd>And it's possible that in our modern world,

899
00:51:13.900 --> 00:51:16.720
<v Brian Boyd>with the kind of glut of stories that we have now,

900
00:51:17.060 --> 00:51:19.300
<v Brian Boyd>our overexposure to a story,

901
00:51:19.360 --> 00:51:21.040
<v Brian Boyd>our being able to turn on the television

902
00:51:21.040 --> 00:51:22.540
<v Brian Boyd>and blob out in front of it,

903
00:51:22.600 --> 00:51:24.540
<v Brian Boyd>may no longer be...

904
00:51:24.540 --> 00:51:25.320
<v Brian Boyd>..be adaptive.

905
00:51:26.440 --> 00:51:29.740
<v Brian Boyd>That's something that we perhaps need to research empirically.

906
00:51:30.840 --> 00:51:32.600
<v Brian Boyd>So, part of the...

907
00:51:34.140 --> 00:51:36.760
<v Brian Boyd>..part of an answer to your question is that

908
00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:40.640
<v Brian Boyd>we do have so many stories available now,

909
00:51:40.780 --> 00:51:43.680
<v Brian Boyd>and so the audience is fractionated into,

910
00:51:43.760 --> 00:51:45.740
<v Brian Boyd>you know, a zillion possible stories.

911
00:51:45.780 --> 00:51:50.000
<v Brian Boyd>So, it's interesting that even nowadays,

912
00:51:50.060 --> 00:51:53.340
<v Brian Boyd>with so many DVDs available and so on,

913
00:51:53.380 --> 00:51:54.360
<v Brian Boyd>movies for download,

914
00:51:54.540 --> 00:51:58.600
<v Brian Boyd>people still tend to go along to the latest blockbuster.

915
00:51:58.900 --> 00:52:02.720
<v Brian Boyd>Part of the...the charm of that

916
00:52:02.720 --> 00:52:07.300
<v Brian Boyd>is seeing something more or less at the same time as others see it.

917
00:52:07.440 --> 00:52:09.460
<v Brian Boyd>And certainly in the early days of TV,

918
00:52:09.620 --> 00:52:12.340
<v Brian Boyd>before there was such a huge range of choice,

919
00:52:13.740 --> 00:52:16.860
<v Brian Boyd>people...people compared what they'd seen the previous night

920
00:52:16.860 --> 00:52:18.600
<v Brian Boyd>to the next day at work or school.

921
00:52:19.620 --> 00:52:22.480
<v Brian Boyd>And that did have a binding influence.

922
00:52:22.740 --> 00:52:24.520
<v Brian Boyd>And, of course, people still do talk about it.

923
00:52:24.540 --> 00:52:27.200
<v Brian Boyd>They talk about their favourite Monty Python skits and so on.

924
00:52:28.100 --> 00:52:28.300
<v Brian Boyd>Yeah.

925
00:52:30.580 --> 00:52:31.740
<v Chair>Don't get me started.

926
00:52:32.100 --> 00:52:32.240
<v Chair>Yeah.

927
00:52:33.860 --> 00:52:35.120
<v Chair>I think next, please.

928
00:52:36.360 --> 00:52:37.100
<v Chair>Thank you.

929
00:52:37.540 --> 00:52:41.020
<v Speaker 7>Hi. Dance is very physical and athletic.

930
00:52:41.520 --> 00:52:43.620
<v Speaker 7>How does that fit into art and play?

931
00:52:45.280 --> 00:52:46.400
<v Brian Boyd>Um, well...

932
00:52:47.340 --> 00:52:48.720
<v Brian Boyd>Dance is a...

933
00:52:49.460 --> 00:52:50.040
<v Brian Boyd>Um...

934
00:52:51.140 --> 00:52:51.720
<v Brian Boyd>Um...

935
00:52:53.420 --> 00:52:55.140
<v Brian Boyd>We're very aware when...

936
00:52:55.720 --> 00:52:58.060
<v Brian Boyd>when we're moving in a way that's non-functional.

937
00:52:58.120 --> 00:52:59.600
<v Brian Boyd>And children...

938
00:52:59.600 --> 00:53:03.600
<v Brian Boyd>I like amusing my grandchildren by just doing a...

939
00:53:03.600 --> 00:53:05.680
<v Brian Boyd>making a slightly odd step,

940
00:53:05.780 --> 00:53:07.080
<v Brian Boyd>and they suddenly see that I'm...

941
00:53:07.080 --> 00:53:08.940
<v Brian Boyd>you know, I'm not walking seriously.

942
00:53:09.180 --> 00:53:11.740
<v Brian Boyd>And they burst into a smile or a laugh.

943
00:53:12.040 --> 00:53:15.840
<v Brian Boyd>Um, so I see...I see dance very much as play.

944
00:53:15.840 --> 00:53:18.420
<v Brian Boyd>And, of course, play can be, um...

945
00:53:19.420 --> 00:53:20.880
<v Brian Boyd>can be very relaxed,

946
00:53:21.020 --> 00:53:22.100
<v Brian Boyd>can be very, uh...

947
00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:24.120
<v Brian Boyd>easy and gentle.

948
00:53:24.200 --> 00:53:25.460
<v Brian Boyd>It can also be very intense,

949
00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:27.760
<v Brian Boyd>if you think of high-level sport

950
00:53:27.760 --> 00:53:30.620
<v Brian Boyd>and the kinds of emotions that get engaged there.

951
00:53:31.080 --> 00:53:32.480
<v Brian Boyd>So, um...

952
00:53:33.900 --> 00:53:37.220
<v Brian Boyd>play can be as intense and engrossing as you like,

953
00:53:37.300 --> 00:53:39.940
<v Brian Boyd>and dance is that kind of physical...

954
00:53:40.800 --> 00:53:41.840
<v Brian Boyd>physical play.

955
00:53:42.040 --> 00:53:43.300
<v Brian Boyd>Um, I mean, it's...

956
00:53:43.840 --> 00:53:45.360
<v Brian Boyd>Play, of course, also...

957
00:53:45.840 --> 00:53:47.320
<v Brian Boyd>uh, as I was suggesting,

958
00:53:47.420 --> 00:53:49.860
<v Brian Boyd>it invites you to train certain skills.

959
00:53:50.240 --> 00:53:54.380
<v Brian Boyd>And dance obviously involves a very extraordinary command

960
00:53:54.380 --> 00:53:56.360
<v Brian Boyd>of the resources of the body,

961
00:53:56.500 --> 00:53:59.240
<v Brian Boyd>just as high-level professional sport does.

962
00:53:59.520 --> 00:54:02.400
<v Brian Boyd>Um, I don't see it as being a problem,

963
00:54:02.560 --> 00:54:03.220
<v Brian Boyd>if you did.

964
00:54:03.620 --> 00:54:04.580
<v Brian Boyd>No, OK.

965
00:54:05.180 --> 00:54:05.800
<v Brian Boyd>Thanks.

966
00:54:06.760 --> 00:54:09.260
<v Speaker 8>At the risk of oversimplifying,

967
00:54:09.460 --> 00:54:11.620
<v Speaker 8>I'm wondering if you see a distinction

968
00:54:11.620 --> 00:54:13.280
<v Speaker 8>that I'm trying to formulate

969
00:54:13.840 --> 00:54:14.380
<v Speaker 8>between...

970
00:54:14.380 --> 00:54:16.680
<v Speaker 8>what you call fiction as art,

971
00:54:16.740 --> 00:54:17.820
<v Speaker 8>on the one hand,

972
00:54:17.820 --> 00:54:20.880
<v Speaker 8>and fiction as anthropology or survival,

973
00:54:21.040 --> 00:54:22.700
<v Speaker 8>such as stay out of the...

974
00:54:22.700 --> 00:54:24.220
<v Speaker 8>stay out of the swamp

975
00:54:24.220 --> 00:54:26.460
<v Speaker 8>because there are werewolves,

976
00:54:26.460 --> 00:54:27.680
<v Speaker 8>when there really aren't.

977
00:54:27.980 --> 00:54:30.260
<v Speaker 8>Uh, and if only fiction,

978
00:54:30.400 --> 00:54:31.520
<v Speaker 8>for the sake of...

979
00:54:32.300 --> 00:54:33.340
<v Speaker 8>of diversion,

980
00:54:33.560 --> 00:54:34.860
<v Speaker 8>can be considered art,

981
00:54:35.060 --> 00:54:37.040
<v Speaker 8>and that the other category

982
00:54:37.040 --> 00:54:39.100
<v Speaker 8>would be something other than art.

983
00:54:39.300 --> 00:54:40.500
<v Speaker 8>And what would you call it,

984
00:54:40.520 --> 00:54:41.720
<v Speaker 8>if there is a distinction?

985
00:54:43.740 --> 00:54:44.260
<v Speaker 8>Um...

986
00:54:44.380 --> 00:54:46.200
<v Brian Boyd>I would think that, um,

987
00:54:46.780 --> 00:54:47.900
<v Brian Boyd>most fiction,

988
00:54:49.040 --> 00:54:49.600
<v Brian Boyd>even...

989
00:54:49.600 --> 00:54:50.760
<v Brian Boyd>even nowadays,

990
00:54:50.900 --> 00:54:52.000
<v Brian Boyd>tends to have a...

991
00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:52.700
<v Brian Boyd>a...

992
00:54:52.700 --> 00:54:54.140
<v Brian Boyd>a kind of message,

993
00:54:54.440 --> 00:54:55.980
<v Brian Boyd>a social message.

994
00:54:56.200 --> 00:54:56.980
<v Brian Boyd>You know, nowadays,

995
00:54:57.180 --> 00:54:58.840
<v Brian Boyd>we don't tend to, uh,

996
00:54:59.480 --> 00:55:02.620
<v Brian Boyd>live near dangerous swamps or whatever,

997
00:55:02.740 --> 00:55:04.560
<v Brian Boyd>so that we don't have those, uh,

998
00:55:04.580 --> 00:55:05.820
<v Brian Boyd>those stories with, uh,

999
00:55:06.380 --> 00:55:08.780
<v Brian Boyd>animal predators quite so frequently,

1000
00:55:08.960 --> 00:55:10.220
<v Brian Boyd>although you look at, uh,

1001
00:55:10.360 --> 00:55:12.280
<v Brian Boyd>children's animated cartoons, of course,

1002
00:55:12.340 --> 00:55:14.360
<v Brian Boyd>and they're just saturated with, uh,

1003
00:55:14.360 --> 00:55:15.880
<v Brian Boyd>with animal characters.

1004
00:55:16.500 --> 00:55:16.920
<v Brian Boyd>Um...

1005
00:55:18.380 --> 00:55:18.980
<v Brian Boyd>I...

1006
00:55:18.980 --> 00:55:20.900
<v Brian Boyd>It seems to me that I...

1007
00:55:20.900 --> 00:55:22.580
<v Brian Boyd>I wouldn't want to explain stories

1008
00:55:22.580 --> 00:55:25.660
<v Brian Boyd>solely in terms of their...

1009
00:55:25.660 --> 00:55:26.220
<v Brian Boyd>the...

1010
00:55:26.220 --> 00:55:27.620
<v Brian Boyd>the messages that they impart,

1011
00:55:27.980 --> 00:55:30.960
<v Brian Boyd>but I think that's always been, uh,

1012
00:55:31.220 --> 00:55:33.660
<v Brian Boyd>a special extra strength of stories,

1013
00:55:33.820 --> 00:55:34.240
<v Brian Boyd>if you like,

1014
00:55:34.380 --> 00:55:36.820
<v Brian Boyd>as compared to other forms of...

1015
00:55:36.820 --> 00:55:37.680
<v Brian Boyd>of art, like...

1016
00:55:37.680 --> 00:55:38.300
<v Brian Boyd>like music,

1017
00:55:38.480 --> 00:55:39.620
<v Brian Boyd>uh, and...

1018
00:55:39.620 --> 00:55:40.580
<v Brian Boyd>and visual art,

1019
00:55:40.680 --> 00:55:40.940
<v Brian Boyd>in...

1020
00:55:40.940 --> 00:55:42.540
<v Brian Boyd>in that they can, um,

1021
00:55:43.540 --> 00:55:44.720
<v Brian Boyd>impart, uh,

1022
00:55:44.880 --> 00:55:46.420
<v Brian Boyd>some kind of message

1023
00:55:46.420 --> 00:55:47.660
<v Brian Boyd>and... and question it,

1024
00:55:47.720 --> 00:55:49.580
<v Brian Boyd>even... even question their own message,

1025
00:55:49.760 --> 00:55:51.540
<v Brian Boyd>complicate their own message in...

1026
00:55:51.540 --> 00:55:53.360
<v Brian Boyd>in those... in special kinds of ways,

1027
00:55:53.460 --> 00:55:55.220
<v Brian Boyd>because... because we have language in stories.

1028
00:55:55.440 --> 00:55:55.920
<v Brian Boyd>Yeah.

1029
00:55:56.960 --> 00:55:58.680
<v Chair>That rather connects with...

1030
00:55:58.680 --> 00:55:59.780
<v Chair>with... with my question,

1031
00:55:59.920 --> 00:56:02.080
<v Chair>uh, in... in a fairly direct way.

1032
00:56:02.300 --> 00:56:03.240
<v Chair>You... fiction...

1033
00:56:03.240 --> 00:56:04.460
<v Chair>You talked at one stage of fiction

1034
00:56:04.460 --> 00:56:05.840
<v Chair>working as a social simulator,

1035
00:56:06.660 --> 00:56:08.680
<v Speaker 5>uh, as sort of thought experiments,

1036
00:56:08.960 --> 00:56:10.880
<v Chair>which is... w-w-w...

1037
00:56:10.880 --> 00:56:10.980
<v Chair>w-w-w...

1038
00:56:10.980 --> 00:56:14.080
<v Chair>which is that obviously blurry space between the...

1039
00:56:14.080 --> 00:56:15.580
<v Chair>that we... you were just talking about

1040
00:56:15.580 --> 00:56:17.400
<v Chair>between extreme moralising and perhaps...

1041
00:56:17.400 --> 00:56:20.120
<v Chair>perhaps the unachievable in narrative of...

1042
00:56:20.120 --> 00:56:21.040
<v Chair>of pure art.

1043
00:56:21.260 --> 00:56:22.220
<v Chair>Uh, I don't know...

1044
00:56:22.220 --> 00:56:24.440
<v Chair>I don't know what pure art in narrative would look like.

1045
00:56:24.580 --> 00:56:24.700
<v Chair>No.

1046
00:56:24.760 --> 00:56:26.480
<v Chair>So I'm inclined to agree with that.

1047
00:56:26.600 --> 00:56:27.560
<v Chair>So just give a...

1048
00:56:27.560 --> 00:56:28.960
<v Chair>Could you give a consequential...

1049
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:30.880
<v Chair>consequential advantage...

1050
00:56:30.880 --> 00:56:34.660
<v Chair>example of where fiction has worked as a social simulator?

1051
00:56:34.920 --> 00:56:35.220
<v Chair>Yeah.

1052
00:56:35.280 --> 00:56:36.800
<v Brian Boyd>Oh, yeah, well, uh...

1053
00:56:38.160 --> 00:56:40.220
<v Brian Boyd>Uncle Tom's Cabin, for instance, you know,

1054
00:56:40.240 --> 00:56:40.580
<v Brian Boyd>uh,

1055
00:56:40.980 --> 00:56:44.840
<v Brian Boyd>where, uh, Abraham Lincoln met Harriet Beecher Stowe

1056
00:56:44.840 --> 00:56:46.900
<v Brian Boyd>during the... the Civil War and said,

1057
00:56:47.000 --> 00:56:49.460
<v Brian Boyd>so you're the... the little lady who started this big war.

1058
00:56:50.020 --> 00:56:50.480
<v Brian Boyd>Um...

1059
00:56:50.480 --> 00:56:51.260
<v Brian Boyd>LAUGHTER

1060
00:56:53.400 --> 00:56:56.220
<v Brian Boyd>Uh, it... it made a huge difference to, uh,

1061
00:56:56.400 --> 00:56:58.020
<v Brian Boyd>you know, people's attitudes towards slavery.

1062
00:56:58.300 --> 00:57:00.580
<v Brian Boyd>Uh, I mean, there was already a strong abolitionist movement,

1063
00:57:00.680 --> 00:57:03.640
<v Brian Boyd>but it, uh, it spread the message much... much wider,

1064
00:57:03.800 --> 00:57:06.180
<v Brian Boyd>and I... I think, uh...

1065
00:57:06.180 --> 00:57:06.900
<v Brian Boyd>Um...

1066
00:57:07.540 --> 00:57:09.120
<v Brian Boyd>things like, uh...

1067
00:57:10.160 --> 00:57:13.600
<v Brian Boyd>George Orwell, say, attitudes towards totalitarianism,

1068
00:57:13.600 --> 00:57:16.800
<v Brian Boyd>uh, once, uh, or Solzhenitsyn's fiction

1069
00:57:16.800 --> 00:57:19.480
<v Brian Boyd>when it started to... to leak back into the Soviet Union,

1070
00:57:19.620 --> 00:57:20.640
<v Brian Boyd>uh, made a change.

1071
00:57:20.780 --> 00:57:21.060
<v Brian Boyd>Mm.

1072
00:57:21.120 --> 00:57:21.960
<v Brian Boyd>It happens all the time.

1073
00:57:22.820 --> 00:57:23.380
<v Chair>Yeah.

1074
00:57:23.480 --> 00:57:24.620
<v Chair>So is that...

1075
00:57:24.620 --> 00:57:27.680
<v Chair>So those are examples from realism in particular,

1076
00:57:27.780 --> 00:57:31.620
<v Chair>sort of novelistic realism, 19th, 20th century.

1077
00:57:32.620 --> 00:57:34.120
<v Chair>Um... does it extend...?

1078
00:57:34.800 --> 00:57:38.520
<v Brian Boyd>Well, uh, uh, Animal Farm is not very realistic.

1079
00:57:38.520 --> 00:57:39.180
<v Brian Boyd>Ah, true.

1080
00:57:40.100 --> 00:57:40.620
<v Brian Boyd>LAUGHTER

1081
00:57:42.880 --> 00:57:43.400
<v Brian Boyd>OK.

1082
00:57:43.720 --> 00:57:45.840
<v Speaker 1>Uh, is there another question?

1083
00:57:46.720 --> 00:57:47.920
<v Speaker 1>We have another question?

1084
00:57:48.320 --> 00:57:50.060
<v Chair>Well, then, I just think...

1085
00:57:50.060 --> 00:57:52.240
<v Chair>I think we've had a wonderful presentation.

1086
00:57:52.400 --> 00:57:55.500
<v Chair>I guess that when Johan starts talking about literature and science,

1087
00:57:55.660 --> 00:57:58.520
<v Chair>it's the shadow of the stupid two cultures debate,

1088
00:57:58.640 --> 00:58:00.520
<v Chair>the idea that literature and science

1089
00:58:00.520 --> 00:58:04.720
<v Chair>are somehow opposed aspects of human... human life,

1090
00:58:04.840 --> 00:58:06.160
<v Chair>and there the twain shall meet

1091
00:58:06.160 --> 00:58:07.840
<v Chair>and should be rude to each other constantly.

1092
00:58:08.520 --> 00:58:11.440
<v Chair>And the anxiety that literature will be reduced to science,

1093
00:58:11.680 --> 00:58:13.640
<v Chair>uh, is obviously a sensi...

1094
00:58:13.640 --> 00:58:15.520
<v Chair>It's a sensible anxiety to have.

1095
00:58:15.800 --> 00:58:17.860
<v Chair>Uh, but I'm sure you'll agree with me

1096
00:58:17.860 --> 00:58:19.440
<v Chair>in thanking Brian Boyd for demonstrating

1097
00:58:19.440 --> 00:58:22.100
<v Chair>that that doesn't have to be the way it is

1098
00:58:22.100 --> 00:58:24.220
<v Chair>and that, in fact, the two can talk to each other

1099
00:58:24.220 --> 00:58:25.820
<v Chair>in extremely fruitful ways.

1100
00:58:25.940 --> 00:58:26.700
<v Chair>So thank you, Brian.

1101
00:58:27.780 --> 00:58:28.260
<v Audience>APPLAUSE

