WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.440 I'm just going to read two short poems before the session. 2 00:00:03.080 --> 00:00:07.860 And one of the first books of poetry I ever recall buying was Angus Graham's famous 3 00:00:07.860 --> 00:00:12.980 translations of poems of the late Tang, which I still have, here it is. 4 00:00:13.560 --> 00:00:17.680 The important thing for me as a poet was the way in which many of the Tang Dynasty poets 5 00:00:17.680 --> 00:00:22.880 addressed political, social and ethical issues, as well as looking at moonlight and getting drunk 6 00:00:22.880 --> 00:00:28.060 and falling out of boats. Dufu was one of the most famous of those Tang Dynasty poets, 7 00:00:28.060 --> 00:00:33.620 poets. A favourite epithet that was applied to him was that of poet sage, a counterpart 8 00:00:33.620 --> 00:00:39.640 to the philosophical sage, Confucius. This is my version, it's not a translation, I don't 9 00:00:39.640 --> 00:00:44.500 purport to be a translator, of a famous poem written when he was imprisoned in the ancient 10 00:00:44.500 --> 00:00:51.520 capital city at a time when the great Tang Empire was in ruins. As a bureaucrat as he was, 11 00:00:51.540 --> 00:00:55.820 he would have worn his hair long with a cap attached to his head with hairpins. To not be 12 00:00:55.820 --> 00:00:57.960 able to secure the cap would have been ironic. 13 00:00:58.060 --> 00:01:02.980 It would have meant ironically that Dufu was no longer fit to serve in government. 14 00:01:03.120 --> 00:01:07.620 It's a very ironic poem. This is my version of Spring Prospect. 15 00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:15.260 The country's been broken, see, only hills and rivers. In the city is the lush growth 16 00:01:15.260 --> 00:01:21.860 of spring. These times are splashed with tears before flowers. Grieved at parting, 17 00:01:22.020 --> 00:01:27.620 birds startle the heart. Beacons have been burning for three whole months. Any letter 18 00:01:27.620 --> 00:01:28.040 from home. 19 00:01:28.060 --> 00:01:36.100 Home is worth ten thousand gold. I've scratched my white hair so thin it can't hold even a 20 00:01:36.100 --> 00:01:37.140 hairpin in place. 21 00:01:37.640 --> 00:01:45.380 And the second poem is one of my own, and what I've done with this poem is to steal 22 00:01:45.380 --> 00:01:52.140 a line for an epigraph from another Tang Dynasty poet, Li Ho, or Li He, was a short-lived poet, 23 00:01:52.360 --> 00:01:56.700 unlike Dufu, and was known for his unconventional and imaginative style. 24 00:01:58.060 --> 00:02:02.260 I've appropriated a phrase from one of his poems in this poem of mine, which also refers 25 00:02:02.260 --> 00:02:07.640 to that wonderful Sydney and Oland series of paintings of the Murray River. The line 26 00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:14.420 from Li Ho is, where shall there be an end of old and new? The poem is called Dreaming 27 00:02:14.420 --> 00:02:14.900 Homeward. 28 00:02:16.160 --> 00:02:24.080 Here are ten thousand changes, shading sky and earth along the river's mask. What arrivals 29 00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:26.480 does it know when all journeys dream homeward? 30 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:28.040 Is there a right way to know when all journeys dream homeward? Is there a right way to know 31 00:02:31.500 --> 00:02:43.040 The lightky 32 00:02:58.040 --> 00:03:02.780 of introducing Professor Daniel Bell to you today. 33 00:03:04.480 --> 00:03:07.480 Let me start with a little anecdote. 34 00:03:10.040 --> 00:03:12.540 My daughter's Goodwood Primary School, 35 00:03:12.720 --> 00:03:15.140 one of the parents, when they asked me, 36 00:03:15.940 --> 00:03:17.240 I think, a very profound question. 37 00:03:17.920 --> 00:03:20.020 And basically her question was, 38 00:03:20.800 --> 00:03:25.860 what does life mean to us if China rules the world? 39 00:03:28.040 --> 00:03:32.560 The implication and the underlying assumption of the question 40 00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:37.920 is that the rise of China is not only an economic event, 41 00:03:39.040 --> 00:03:43.320 it's a cultural one which impacts our very identity. 42 00:03:45.080 --> 00:03:48.560 Today we have a very distinctive speaker 43 00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:51.680 who will inspire us to address the issue 44 00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:55.080 related to my friend's question mentioned above. 45 00:03:55.940 --> 00:03:57.840 That is the issue of our anxiety. 46 00:03:58.040 --> 00:04:00.880 Our very anxiety with the rise of China. 47 00:04:03.860 --> 00:04:06.740 Professor Daniel Bell was born in Montreal 48 00:04:06.740 --> 00:04:11.200 and obtained his BA at McGill University 49 00:04:11.200 --> 00:04:14.020 and graduate degrees at Oxford University. 50 00:04:15.160 --> 00:04:18.500 And he had research position fellowships at Princeton and Stanford. 51 00:04:20.320 --> 00:04:22.320 Professor Bell is currently a chair professor 52 00:04:22.320 --> 00:04:25.840 of the arts and humanities at Jiao Tong University, Shanghai 53 00:04:25.840 --> 00:04:27.720 and professor of ethics. 54 00:04:28.040 --> 00:04:32.300 And he is also the director of the Center for International 55 00:04:32.300 --> 00:04:35.220 and Comparative Political Philosophy 56 00:04:35.220 --> 00:04:37.000 at Tsinghua University, Beijing. 57 00:04:39.440 --> 00:04:41.840 Written books by Professor Bell include 58 00:04:41.840 --> 00:04:44.400 China's New Confucianism, 59 00:04:47.100 --> 00:04:49.140 Ancient Chinese Thought, Modern Chinese Power, 60 00:04:50.760 --> 00:04:51.860 and The Spirits of Cities. 61 00:04:53.840 --> 00:04:57.300 Professor Bell frequently contributes to New York Times, 62 00:04:58.040 --> 00:05:01.480 International Herald Tribune, and Toronto Globe, 63 00:05:02.280 --> 00:05:03.980 and the male and Chinese language publications. 64 00:05:05.480 --> 00:05:08.980 Professor Bell lived and taught several years in Singapore, 65 00:05:09.260 --> 00:05:12.840 Hong Kong, and has been living in Beijing for several years. 66 00:05:13.660 --> 00:05:15.560 Professor Bell speaks Chinese 67 00:05:16.880 --> 00:05:19.840 and has married a Chinese, as far as I know. 68 00:05:22.500 --> 00:05:24.880 Therefore, in every sense of the word, 69 00:05:24.960 --> 00:05:27.420 Professor Bell has both theoretical, 70 00:05:27.420 --> 00:05:31.800 as well as empirical knowledge of both East and West. 71 00:05:34.940 --> 00:05:39.380 Professor Bell can examine China from inside as an outsider. 72 00:05:40.280 --> 00:05:44.260 He can also examine the West from outside as an insider. 73 00:05:46.880 --> 00:05:49.440 So personally, I don't think China will ever rule the world 74 00:05:50.380 --> 00:05:57.280 if China adopts Confucianism, as it is guiding philosophy. 75 00:05:57.420 --> 00:06:01.560 So what are the relevance and significance of Confucianism in today's China? 76 00:06:02.520 --> 00:06:07.160 What are the ideas and the philosophy that are attributed to the man 77 00:06:07.160 --> 00:06:11.420 who is called Confucius, the man who is more often than not 78 00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:17.180 treated as a banal joke on the school playground in Western countries? 79 00:06:18.980 --> 00:06:25.380 To address these issues and more, please welcome Professor Daniel Bell. 80 00:06:33.640 --> 00:06:38.400 Thank you so much for the kind introduction and... 81 00:06:38.400 --> 00:06:41.100 The empirical knowledge is sitting there... 82 00:06:43.240 --> 00:06:46.060 I'm very glad and honored to be here... 83 00:06:46.060 --> 00:06:49.360 And actually it's our third city in Australia... 84 00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:51.720 And they said about vineyards that... 85 00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:53.420 The more you visit, the better it becomes... 86 00:06:53.420 --> 00:06:55.540 I think it's also true of cities in Australia... 87 00:06:55.540 --> 00:06:56.780 I must say... 88 00:06:56.780 --> 00:06:57.080 This is... 89 00:06:57.420 --> 00:07:02.440 beautiful that we've seen so far. And in retrospect, maybe we could have started with the end, but 90 00:07:02.440 --> 00:07:08.520 anyway. So what I'm going to talk today is mainly about, first of all, I won't say much about the 91 00:07:08.520 --> 00:07:15.200 fact of the rise of Confucianism. I'll say more about why it's happening, and I'll say more about 92 00:07:15.200 --> 00:07:19.940 political Confucianism in particular, and how there are diverse interpretations. And then I'll defend 93 00:07:19.940 --> 00:07:26.300 an interpretation that is more humane and progressive, that I think perhaps has a lot 94 00:07:26.300 --> 00:07:33.020 to offer, not just to China, but to the rest of the world too. So the rise of Confucianism, I mean, 95 00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:39.460 probably many of you saw the opening ceremony of the Olympics, which began with a quote from 96 00:07:39.460 --> 00:07:44.720 the Analects of Confucius, that one of life's greatest pleasures is to welcome friends from 97 00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:50.720 abroad. And it was a beautiful thing, and it was very well done, and they tried to portray the 98 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:54.920 best of China to the rest of the world. But it was interesting, because they skipped the last 99 00:07:54.920 --> 00:07:56.280 100 years of history, and they didn't get to see the best of China. And so, I think, 100 00:07:56.280 --> 00:07:58.960 it was a very important moment in the history. It was mainly about Confucianism and other traditions, 101 00:07:59.180 --> 00:08:07.460 and there was nothing about the experiment with socialism and Maoism. And of course, we know about 102 00:08:07.460 --> 00:08:13.980 the Confucius Institutes. And even within China, it's interesting that in January earlier this year, 103 00:08:14.100 --> 00:08:18.640 there was a huge statue of Confucius placed in front of Tiananmen Square, which as you know is a very 104 00:08:18.640 --> 00:08:25.360 important symbolic political space. And at the time, many of us thought, wow, finally we're moving from 105 00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:26.260 the Chinese colonial era to the Chinese colonial era. And so, we're going to see a lot of Chinese 106 00:08:26.280 --> 00:08:29.780 people moving from the Chinese Communist Party to the Chinese Confucian Party. But it turns out we 107 00:08:29.780 --> 00:08:35.700 were overly optimistic, because the statue was removed a few months later after many, it's very rare that 108 00:08:35.700 --> 00:08:43.020 Maoists and liberals took the same side in opposing the statue. But anyway, it's an ongoing, not just 109 00:08:43.020 --> 00:08:50.820 battle, but ongoing debate. And I think it's not the end of the story. Now, why, of course, part of this 110 00:08:50.820 --> 00:08:56.260 is official, but part of this is unofficial. There are literally over 10 million children enrolled in schools 111 00:08:56.260 --> 00:09:01.320 in China that are learning more about the Confucian classics, many of which are experimental schools 112 00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:07.940 that are not sponsored officially by various governmental agencies. Now, why is this happening? 113 00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:13.220 Well, there are at least four reasons. And I won't spend too much time on that. But the first reason is perhaps 114 00:09:13.220 --> 00:09:19.800 the most obvious, which is that although according to surveys, there's a lot of support for the government, 115 00:09:19.920 --> 00:09:24.800 in fact, the higher, there's lots of support, especially for the central government, less so for the local government. 116 00:09:24.800 --> 00:09:33.500 But there is a crisis of ideological legitimacy, meaning that any sort of regime needs to have some sort of 117 00:09:33.500 --> 00:09:40.920 official values that reflect what it's trying to do, what it's trying to say in its policies, in its educational system. 118 00:09:41.260 --> 00:09:48.760 And as you know, the government now, the regime is still Marxist or Communist in terms of its official ideology. 119 00:09:49.240 --> 00:09:54.780 But the problem is that not many children in schools, and not many students, and even adults, are educated in the 120 00:09:54.800 --> 00:09:59.900 world, and not many adults are inspired anymore by Communism. I mean, even if many of us, including me, 121 00:09:59.940 --> 00:10:06.960 and I think Professor Gal, so we share some socialist values, but not many people believe that we're going to move 122 00:10:06.960 --> 00:10:14.100 from here to a higher form of Communism, that we're in this process of moving from a kind of, you know, imperfect form 123 00:10:14.100 --> 00:10:20.200 of Communism to a more perfect form of Communism. If anything, we seem to be moving the other way around, away from Communism. 124 00:10:20.920 --> 00:10:24.780 So there's a need for something else to replace, or not necessarily to replace, but to replace the 125 00:10:24.800 --> 00:10:34.260 but at least a supplement, Communism. And in the 1980s, most reformist intellectuals, as well as reformist people in the government, 126 00:10:34.780 --> 00:10:40.960 thought that liberal democracy was the way to go. It's just a matter of time, you know, the end of history, you're familiar with these debates, 127 00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:46.560 but eventually, it's just a matter of time how we're going to move from here to a kind of Western-style liberal democracy. 128 00:10:46.700 --> 00:10:52.160 A bit like the debates in the Middle East today, you know, not many people are arguing for alternatives to liberal democracy. 129 00:10:52.920 --> 00:10:54.300 After the regime's 130 00:10:54.980 --> 00:10:56.020 fall, or are falling. 131 00:10:57.280 --> 00:11:05.100 Well, I think in China it's different now. For one thing, you know, more people have experience with the imperfections of actually existing liberal democracy, 132 00:11:05.280 --> 00:11:10.060 that the more experience you have with those regimes, the more you realize, uh-oh, they have many problems. 133 00:11:10.760 --> 00:11:17.520 So therefore, maybe, why should we limit our normative horizons, so to speak, to liberal democracy? 134 00:11:17.560 --> 00:11:22.540 Why can't we think of something that's even better? And why can't we think, why can't we draw upon our own traditions, 135 00:11:22.680 --> 00:11:24.780 something that resonates more with people's habits, and that's what we're trying to do. 136 00:11:24.780 --> 00:11:25.760 Theurarian Principle 137 00:11:25.760 --> 00:11:26.700 Theurarian Principle 138 00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:29.000 Theurarian Principle 139 00:11:33.940 --> 00:11:34.980 Theurarian Principle 140 00:11:36.940 --> 00:11:37.940 Theurarian Principle 141 00:11:37.940 --> 00:11:38.880 Theurarian Principle 142 00:11:38.880 --> 00:11:39.480 Theurarian Principle 143 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:40.680 Theurarian Principle 144 00:11:40.680 --> 00:11:40.760 Theurarian Principle 145 00:11:40.760 --> 00:11:41.080 Theurarian Principle 146 00:11:41.080 --> 00:11:41.160 Theurarian Principle 147 00:11:41.160 --> 00:11:41.940 Theurarian Principle 148 00:11:41.940 --> 00:11:42.940 Theurarian Principle 149 00:11:42.940 --> 00:11:43.400 Theurarian Principle 150 00:11:43.400 --> 00:11:43.480 Theurarian Principle 151 00:11:43.480 --> 00:11:44.640 Theurarian Principle 152 00:11:44.640 --> 00:11:44.780 Theurarian Principle 153 00:11:44.780 --> 00:11:44.900 Theurarian Principle 154 00:11:44.900 --> 00:11:45.500 Theurarian Principle 155 00:11:45.500 --> 00:11:45.860 Theurarian Principle 156 00:11:45.860 --> 00:11:46.920 Theurarian Principle 157 00:11:46.920 --> 00:11:48.040 Theurarian Principle 158 00:11:48.040 --> 00:11:48.500 Theurarian Principle 159 00:11:48.500 --> 00:11:49.240 Theurarian Principle 160 00:11:49.240 --> 00:11:50.660 Theurarian Principle 161 00:11:50.660 --> 00:11:52.940 Theurarian Principle 162 00:11:52.940 --> 00:11:53.700 Theurarian Principle 163 00:11:53.700 --> 00:11:54.560 Theurarian Principle 164 00:11:54.560 --> 00:12:01.220 needs, but Confucianism at its core is a social and political ethic, has hardly anything to say 165 00:12:01.220 --> 00:12:06.920 about the afterlife. So that's one reason that there's a kind of, we can call it, crisis of 166 00:12:06.920 --> 00:12:13.040 ideological legitimacy, and that I think Confucianism is having an important, and it's not just within 167 00:12:13.040 --> 00:12:16.140 the government. You know, the Communist Party is a big organization, you have 80 million people, 168 00:12:17.780 --> 00:12:22.800 and many of the younger codders who aren't trained in this tradition of anti-traditionalism, 169 00:12:22.800 --> 00:12:26.280 which was the main tradition in the 20th century, whether you were liberals or Marxists, 170 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:31.040 you tend to be against tradition. So many of the elderly codders are still against kind of 171 00:12:31.040 --> 00:12:35.760 traditional values, but many of the younger codders have, I think, a more open-minded attitude 172 00:12:35.760 --> 00:12:42.240 towards Confucianism and other traditional values. Of course, they need to be modernized and so on. 173 00:12:43.420 --> 00:12:47.320 Now, other reasons are more economic. One which is that, you know, one of the problems with 174 00:12:47.320 --> 00:12:51.140 capitalist modernization, not just in China, but everywhere, is that it makes people more 175 00:12:51.500 --> 00:12:51.860 individualistic. 176 00:12:52.800 --> 00:12:58.180 And that's viewed as a serious problem, especially in a place like China, which doesn't have this, 177 00:12:58.220 --> 00:13:02.060 you know, tradition of individualism. So people want to think, how could we 178 00:13:02.060 --> 00:13:05.980 have some sort of remedy for this excessive individualism in society? 179 00:13:06.660 --> 00:13:11.760 And again, Confucianism is the obvious resource because it emphasizes social responsibility, 180 00:13:12.640 --> 00:13:19.240 you know, and this, so again, we could talk more about this if you want in question time. 181 00:13:20.220 --> 00:13:22.780 But another feature about economic modernization is that it's not just about the economy. It's about the 182 00:13:22.800 --> 00:13:23.020 people. 183 00:13:23.020 --> 00:13:26.580 And another feature about economic modernization is that it also leads to a kind of cultural pride, 184 00:13:26.700 --> 00:13:32.320 right? I mean, for most of the 20th century, China, you know, many Chinese intellectuals viewed, 185 00:13:33.140 --> 00:13:38.520 you know, China as a kind of the sick man of Asia, so to speak, and they tended to blame its 186 00:13:38.520 --> 00:13:43.440 traditional values for its, you know, sick man status. But now that China has developed quite 187 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:47.900 rapidly the past two decades, on the one hand, it's a paradox, right? The more modern you become, 188 00:13:47.980 --> 00:13:51.200 the more traditional you become, but it's not that much of a paradox when you think about it, 189 00:13:51.220 --> 00:13:52.780 because modernity is not just about the economy. It's about the people. It's about the people. 190 00:13:52.780 --> 00:13:57.020 Modernity also leads to, you know, success in terms of dealing with the issues of modernity 191 00:13:57.020 --> 00:14:03.620 also leads to a kind of cultural pride. People look to other places like South Korea and Taiwan, 192 00:14:04.400 --> 00:14:08.400 and they say, well, hold on, they modernized partly on the basis of Confucian values, 193 00:14:08.660 --> 00:14:13.220 so maybe there's something to those values. They're not just what we thought were the sources 194 00:14:13.220 --> 00:14:17.860 of, you know, feudalism and patriarchy, these crude kind of dismissals of Confucianism that 195 00:14:17.860 --> 00:14:21.420 were characteristic of the 20th century. Maybe there's more to it than that. So again, this 196 00:14:21.420 --> 00:14:22.760 leads to more open-minded, 197 00:14:22.780 --> 00:14:28.440 attitude. And the fourth reason is more academic, which is that, again, for most of the 20th century, 198 00:14:28.460 --> 00:14:34.720 you had some glorious, you know, counter-examples, but most intellectuals tended to have these very 199 00:14:34.720 --> 00:14:40.620 crude views of Confucianism, again, as feudal and patriarchal and so on. But now that people do 200 00:14:40.620 --> 00:14:45.580 research, serious research on the tradition of Confucianism, they come up with very, you know, 201 00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:50.260 it turns out it's a very rich and inspiring tradition in many ways, just like liberalism 202 00:14:50.260 --> 00:14:52.760 or Christianity. You know, if you were to say, liberalism is a very rich and inspiring tradition, 203 00:14:52.780 --> 00:14:57.440 if liberalism is just about imperialism and racism, you would think this is crazy. You're not 204 00:14:57.440 --> 00:15:01.960 doing justice to liberal tradition. Well, the same thing with Confucianism. People look at it in 205 00:15:01.960 --> 00:15:07.580 detail, and it turns out it's a very rich tradition. And of course, it has many, it has a dark side, 206 00:15:07.640 --> 00:15:13.060 just like other traditions, but it also has more beautiful aspects, which we can discuss and write 207 00:15:13.060 --> 00:15:17.860 about. And that's what's happening. If you go to bookstores in China, there's lots of very 208 00:15:17.860 --> 00:15:22.580 excellent academic works that treat Confucianism as a serious tradition, which, again, 209 00:15:22.780 --> 00:15:28.120 20 years ago, there was hardly any of that. Okay, but I want to talk about which part of 210 00:15:29.420 --> 00:15:34.240 Confucianism, you know, should be revived. Because, I mean, ultimately, you know, I'm more 211 00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:39.240 interested in these normative questions. I'm trained as a political philosopher, and we don't 212 00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:43.020 want to just study how politics works. We want to ask, you know, how politics ought to work. 213 00:15:43.460 --> 00:15:48.260 And here we have different traditions. And the most famous, you know, actual exponent of 214 00:15:48.260 --> 00:15:51.960 Confucianism in China is actually a female academic called Yu Dan, 215 00:15:52.780 --> 00:15:56.780 who wrote a book about Confucianism, The Analects, that sold about 10 million copies. 216 00:15:57.160 --> 00:16:01.720 But her interpretation is very apolitical. And there's hardly anything, actually, 217 00:16:01.800 --> 00:16:05.980 about social responsibility, no criticism of the regime, or of any sort of politics. 218 00:16:06.820 --> 00:16:12.060 And which is, I think, not a fair way of engaging with Confucianism. Because I do think that 219 00:16:12.060 --> 00:16:16.880 Confucianism at its core is a political tradition, right? I mean, the most famous early Confucians 220 00:16:16.880 --> 00:16:22.340 think of Confucius and Mencius. I mean, in their days, they were radical, you know, social critics, 221 00:16:22.780 --> 00:16:28.660 both of them roamed from, China was not yet unified. They roamed from state to state, 222 00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:33.600 trying to persuade rulers to adopt their moral and political ideals. And they largely failed, 223 00:16:33.680 --> 00:16:38.320 and they became teachers. But still, they were concerned with politics. And ultimately, 224 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:42.100 if you're a Confucian, you have to be concerned, you have to start with the family. That's where 225 00:16:42.100 --> 00:16:48.220 you learn about morality. That's where you learn about love. But you need to extend to non-family 226 00:16:48.220 --> 00:16:52.760 members. And ultimately, you should strive to be concerned with the community. And that's where you 227 00:16:52.760 --> 00:16:58.020 ultimately with the world as a whole. That's the kind of core Confucian ethic. So if you just 228 00:16:58.020 --> 00:17:04.620 limit yourself to personal happiness, you know, like Udan did, arguably, in her interpretation 229 00:17:04.620 --> 00:17:10.240 of Confucianism, it's not really being fair to the tradition. Okay, but then you have political 230 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:14.700 interpretations. And here, there's at least three kinds. And I'm going to defend the third kind, 231 00:17:14.800 --> 00:17:19.320 which I think is a more humane and progressive version. And one version is a more conservative 232 00:17:19.320 --> 00:17:22.500 version, which is, of course, just like other traditions, 233 00:17:22.760 --> 00:17:28.220 is Confucian can be used and misused by governments to justify the status quo, right? 234 00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:32.980 Actually, I don't have a problem with a lot of it. You know, now China, there's official slogan of 235 00:17:32.980 --> 00:17:37.620 harmonious society, hexie shouhui in Chinese, which I think is perfectly fine. You know, who 236 00:17:37.620 --> 00:17:42.300 wants to use violent revolution to change a society now? It's saying that, of course, we have 237 00:17:42.300 --> 00:17:46.820 many problems in society, but we're going to use peaceful means to deal with them. And there's also 238 00:17:46.820 --> 00:17:52.120 a new emphasis on filial piety, concern and care for elderly parents. Of course, that's a good thing. 239 00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:58.960 But at the end of the day, it's still conservative. And in that sense, it's not the full picture, 240 00:17:59.060 --> 00:18:03.660 because if you are a committed Confucian, one who thinks that Confucian ethics has a lot to offer, 241 00:18:04.420 --> 00:18:09.560 then ultimately you owe your allegiance to a moral way, which you use to evaluate social and 242 00:18:09.560 --> 00:18:16.840 political values and behavior. In other words, you're not committed to an official doctrine as 243 00:18:16.840 --> 00:18:22.100 espoused by any government. You're committed to a moral way, which you use as a standard to evaluate 244 00:18:41.320 --> 00:18:42.720 yourkykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykykyky 245 00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:47.220 And here you had many Confucian scholars and theorists who said, 246 00:18:47.360 --> 00:18:55.260 we are committed to Confucian ethics at the level of education and everyday life and family and so on, 247 00:18:55.300 --> 00:18:58.100 but when it comes to politics, we're pure liberal Democrats, 248 00:18:58.500 --> 00:19:04.260 and we're going to use liberal democracy as a standard to evaluate what's good and what's bad about Confucianism. 249 00:19:04.940 --> 00:19:08.520 So if there's a conflict between liberal democracy and Confucianism, 250 00:19:08.520 --> 00:19:13.300 the problem lies with Confucianism, not with liberal democracy. 251 00:19:14.380 --> 00:19:21.260 Now, I think in the mainland China now, these debates are less confined, less rigid. 252 00:19:21.540 --> 00:19:25.380 If there's a conflict between liberal values and Confucian values, 253 00:19:25.560 --> 00:19:28.160 why is a problem automatically with Confucian values? 254 00:19:28.280 --> 00:19:35.580 Maybe Confucian values can be used to improve the defects or the problems of liberal democracy. 255 00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:37.340 Why can't we be open to that possibility? 256 00:19:37.760 --> 00:19:38.500 And I think... 257 00:19:38.520 --> 00:19:41.680 The debates in mainland China now, more and more, are open to that possibility. 258 00:19:43.600 --> 00:19:48.800 And that's the interpretation of Confucianism that I'm going to call humane and progressive Confucianism. 259 00:19:49.260 --> 00:19:53.720 And the way to show how this works is I'm going to take some humane and progressive values 260 00:19:53.720 --> 00:19:59.000 that I think most kind of humane and progressive people are committed to 261 00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:02.700 and show what happens to them when you run them through a Confucian framework. 262 00:20:03.120 --> 00:20:07.980 They take very interesting terms, so to speak. 263 00:20:08.820 --> 00:20:09.260 Okay. 264 00:20:09.380 --> 00:20:18.200 Now, one value that I think we should be committed to, whether it's socialists or liberals or Christians, for example, 265 00:20:18.320 --> 00:20:23.120 is this view that the government should be committed to the people, right? 266 00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:24.720 That the government serves the people. 267 00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:27.380 I mean, there's a famous slogan in China, you know, 268 00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:30.100 which means that the government should serve the people. 269 00:20:30.420 --> 00:20:32.460 Now, who's going to disagree with that? 270 00:20:32.620 --> 00:20:35.040 Actually, you do have some disagreements in Chinese tradition. 271 00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:38.380 There's a group of thinkers called legalists who think that the... 272 00:20:38.380 --> 00:20:40.260 the purpose of government is to strengthen the state, 273 00:20:40.780 --> 00:20:43.960 even if it means at the expense of the happiness of the people. 274 00:20:44.080 --> 00:20:47.960 But I think today we'd recognize that the purpose of government is to serve the people, 275 00:20:48.020 --> 00:20:51.200 is to make the people, is to promote the people's well-being, right? 276 00:20:51.280 --> 00:20:52.200 Who's going to disagree with that? 277 00:20:52.940 --> 00:20:55.980 Okay. Now, if you run that through a liberal democratic framework, 278 00:20:56.080 --> 00:21:02.140 typically what that means is that the government is there to serve the community of people who consent to it. 279 00:21:02.300 --> 00:21:03.380 And what does that mean in practice? 280 00:21:03.420 --> 00:21:05.600 Today, it means the people who vote for the government. 281 00:21:05.740 --> 00:21:07.720 That the government is there to serve the voters. 282 00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:10.500 Now, we know in practice it doesn't work like that often. 283 00:21:10.660 --> 00:21:14.600 You know, in the... in many countries, capitalist interests have too much dominance 284 00:21:14.600 --> 00:21:16.640 and the government serves the interests of capitalists. 285 00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:22.120 But at least theoretically, and often in practice too, the government is there to serve the interests of voters. 286 00:21:22.580 --> 00:21:25.160 Now, from a Confucian perspective, that's fine. 287 00:21:25.320 --> 00:21:27.680 I mean, that's part of the picture, but it's not the whole picture. 288 00:21:27.800 --> 00:21:32.600 Because the big problem is that when the government implements certain policies, 289 00:21:32.780 --> 00:21:36.240 it's not just voters who are affected, it's also non-voters. 290 00:21:36.380 --> 00:21:37.700 It's also future generations. 291 00:21:37.700 --> 00:21:40.380 It's also people living outside the country. 292 00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:44.380 Like, think of... think of... think of climate change. 293 00:21:44.620 --> 00:21:50.260 You know, what China does or what the US does doesn't just influence the community of people who, you know, 294 00:21:50.260 --> 00:21:55.060 who vote or somehow are supposed to have the existing, you know, generations. 295 00:21:55.360 --> 00:21:57.520 It also affects future generations, right? 296 00:21:57.600 --> 00:21:59.640 It also affects people living outside those countries. 297 00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:07.680 But in a liberal democratic framework, nobody represents the interests of non-voters who are affected by the policies of the government. 298 00:22:07.700 --> 00:22:08.240 Right? 299 00:22:08.460 --> 00:22:12.500 I mean, I'm from Canada, you know, I'm proud to be Canadian and so on, 300 00:22:12.580 --> 00:22:21.820 but I do think it's a big problem that, you know, it's very hard to imagine a political system whereby, you know, 301 00:22:21.820 --> 00:22:23.320 a Canadian government official would say, 302 00:22:23.900 --> 00:22:30.160 look, you Canadians, in terms of per capita emissions, if the rest of the world were to follow your model, we'd all be doomed. 303 00:22:30.280 --> 00:22:36.620 So we have to change our way of life in a very substantial way to represent the interests of future generations and people living outside of Canada. 304 00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:37.620 Nobody would get elected. 305 00:22:37.620 --> 00:22:38.960 Nobody would get elected on that platform, right? 306 00:22:39.280 --> 00:22:49.720 So it's a very serious flaw with liberal democracy that it cannot represent in any serious way the interests of non-voters who are affected by the policies of the government. 307 00:22:50.040 --> 00:22:58.040 So Confucians say, well, we don't have a problem with that because we never argue that the task of government is just to represent one generation of people, the current generation of people. 308 00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:01.380 Of course, the government should serve the people, but who are the people? 309 00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:06.780 Yes, it's the people who exist now, but it's also future generations and it's also our ancestors, 310 00:23:06.780 --> 00:23:09.360 and it's also people living outside the country. 311 00:23:09.620 --> 00:23:11.980 Tianshiat used the language of Confucianism, the whole world. 312 00:23:12.260 --> 00:23:18.760 So when we think of political ideals, we shouldn't be limited just to this view that the government is there to serve the interests of voters. 313 00:23:19.800 --> 00:23:21.460 So what does that mean in practice? 314 00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:25.940 Well, you have some really interesting ideas now emerging from mainland China, you know, where they say, 315 00:23:26.520 --> 00:23:32.380 OK, well, let's think of some sort of political ideal that's also realistic in some foreseeable future. 316 00:23:32.460 --> 00:23:36.760 OK, maybe we need more democracy, more representation for the people. 317 00:23:36.780 --> 00:23:39.840 Maybe we need more democracy for farmers and workers. 318 00:23:40.100 --> 00:23:40.980 We agree with that. 319 00:23:41.140 --> 00:23:47.360 But we also need some sort of formal representation for non-voters who are affected by the policies of government. 320 00:23:47.600 --> 00:23:53.860 So this is very interesting and creative and perhaps even an influential figure called Jiang Qing. 321 00:23:54.040 --> 00:24:03.360 He proposes another legislature which has a specific task of representing the interests of non-voters who are affected by the policies of government. 322 00:24:03.500 --> 00:24:06.680 And he's explicitly motivated by ecological concerns. 323 00:24:08.100 --> 00:24:11.620 And he also argues for a third house of government. 324 00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:17.400 He says that, you know, as mentioned, China has this 100 years of this tradition of anti-traditionalism. 325 00:24:17.460 --> 00:24:26.060 So there's a need to promote the cultural continuity, not just of Confucianism but of other traditions that have been attacked over the past 100 years. 326 00:24:26.140 --> 00:24:29.740 So he proposes this third house of government that represents the interests of our ancestors. 327 00:24:30.660 --> 00:24:35.080 So you'd have representation for Confucians but also for Daoists and Buddhists and Christians, 328 00:24:35.220 --> 00:24:36.500 which has a 100-year tradition. 329 00:24:39.940 --> 00:24:42.900 So this sort of model, on the one hand, it's quite a utopian, right? 330 00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:49.640 You have a tricameral legislature, one democratic, you know, and one which represents our ancestors and different traditions, 331 00:24:49.840 --> 00:24:53.680 and another one which represents future generations and people living outside the country. 332 00:24:54.560 --> 00:24:57.820 Now, in terms of this last house of government, how do we choose them? 333 00:24:57.920 --> 00:25:01.280 Well, of course, you can't use democracy because the whole point is to represent non-voters. 334 00:25:01.800 --> 00:25:06.440 And this is where the Confucian tradition of political meritocracy has an important role to play. 335 00:25:06.440 --> 00:25:13.520 Because according to Confucianism, it's a very rich and diverse tradition, but there's still this idea, how do we choose political leaders? 336 00:25:13.740 --> 00:25:21.320 Well, they say everyone should have equal opportunity to be educated and to have an opportunity to serve the community, 337 00:25:21.600 --> 00:25:28.020 but not everybody emerges from this process with an equal ability to make informed moral and political judgments. 338 00:25:28.280 --> 00:25:32.200 So an important task of the government is to select those with above average ability. 339 00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:34.480 So what does that mean? 340 00:25:34.540 --> 00:25:35.820 Well, in practice, you know, as you know, in the United States, there's a lot of people who are not educated. 341 00:25:35.820 --> 00:25:36.420 So what does that mean? Well, in practice, you know, as you know, in the United States, there's a lot of people who are not educated. 342 00:26:01.740 --> 00:26:03.140 Theurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarianurarian 343 00:26:03.140 --> 00:26:06.760 be very important to choose leaders who have a task representing non-voters. 344 00:26:07.760 --> 00:26:11.000 So these are the sorts of debates that are taking place in China. 345 00:26:11.260 --> 00:26:16.680 And on the one hand, it's interesting because it's more, I think, open-minded debates than 346 00:26:16.680 --> 00:26:18.900 those that have taken place for most of the 20th century. 347 00:26:19.140 --> 00:26:23.900 But also, it serves as a standard to evaluate political progress in China. 348 00:26:24.360 --> 00:26:29.000 You know, most people in, I mean, I'm from Canada, but I think in the West more generally, 349 00:26:29.140 --> 00:26:30.500 they work with this model. 350 00:26:30.500 --> 00:26:34.140 It's either you support democracy, which is good, or you support authoritarianism, 351 00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:34.660 which is bad. 352 00:26:35.180 --> 00:26:38.860 But Confucians say it's a very limited view of thinking about political ideals. 353 00:26:39.240 --> 00:26:42.940 We should also ask, is the government becoming more, yes, we should ask, is the government 354 00:26:42.940 --> 00:26:43.740 becoming more democratic? 355 00:26:43.980 --> 00:26:46.300 But we should also ask, is it becoming more meritocratic? 356 00:26:46.920 --> 00:26:49.400 And to a certain extent, there are reasons to be optimistic. 357 00:26:49.740 --> 00:26:53.480 I mean, the party is choosing more educated people. 358 00:26:54.200 --> 00:26:57.760 It's not as, you know, and they're not doing very well at choosing those with more virtue, 359 00:26:57.800 --> 00:27:00.280 arguably, but it's moving more in that direction. 360 00:27:01.240 --> 00:27:06.740 And you also have to ask, is the system doing better at promoting cultural traditions and 361 00:27:06.740 --> 00:27:11.560 maintaining traditions that people care about, you know, including Confucianism and Taoism 362 00:27:11.560 --> 00:27:13.100 and Buddhism and Christianity? 363 00:27:13.400 --> 00:27:17.760 And there, too, I think there's progress in China compared to the past 20 or 30 years. 364 00:27:18.100 --> 00:27:24.280 So I think these debates are opening up the perspective in terms of which political ideals 365 00:27:24.280 --> 00:27:26.780 we should use to evaluate political progress in China. 366 00:27:26.900 --> 00:27:30.000 Don't just limit ourselves to Western-style liberal democracy. 367 00:27:30.500 --> 00:27:33.980 Let's have a more open-minded perspective on political progress. 368 00:27:34.940 --> 00:27:41.500 If these sorts of ideas, you know, become implemented to a certain extent, and arguably, 369 00:27:41.660 --> 00:27:46.720 you know, moving to a certain extent in that direction, then China could serve as an inspiring 370 00:27:46.720 --> 00:27:50.720 model for the rest of the world, and I think this is where China's soft power may be quite 371 00:27:50.720 --> 00:27:51.140 important. 372 00:27:51.780 --> 00:27:59.340 Okay, let me take another value that I think many humane and progressive people are committed 373 00:27:59.340 --> 00:27:59.660 to. 374 00:27:59.660 --> 00:28:06.240 And this is the view that an important purpose of government is to serve the disadvantaged 375 00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:07.900 peoples in our community. 376 00:28:08.220 --> 00:28:12.520 Because, again, there's this very crude stereotype of Confucianism that, oh, it's just there 377 00:28:12.520 --> 00:28:14.280 to serve those on top of the hierarchy. 378 00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:16.080 But that's a very misguided view. 379 00:28:17.240 --> 00:28:23.060 I think Confucianism recognizes that any society is going to have some sort of political elite. 380 00:28:23.280 --> 00:28:27.180 I mean, you can't imagine a large society that doesn't have political elites. 381 00:28:27.320 --> 00:28:29.640 The question is, you know, who are those elites? 382 00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:31.900 How do we choose them, and what are they supposed to do? 383 00:28:32.660 --> 00:28:37.960 And in terms of what they're supposed to do, Confucians are committed to this view that 384 00:28:37.960 --> 00:28:41.540 they have to serve the interests of disadvantaged peoples in society. 385 00:28:42.080 --> 00:28:45.960 But again, and here I think there's a lot in common with socialism, and one of the reasons 386 00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:52.000 why socialism took root in China is that it resonated with these deeper outlooks. 387 00:28:52.520 --> 00:28:54.640 But what do we mean by disadvantaged? 388 00:28:54.860 --> 00:28:59.620 And this is where Confucianism has a very interesting take on the issue. 389 00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:05.680 Because, you know, Mencius, who's one of the two great early, you know, Confucians, you know, 390 00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:07.660 he argued that, look, who's disadvantaged? 391 00:29:08.200 --> 00:29:10.440 First of all, it's those who are poor. 392 00:29:10.660 --> 00:29:12.480 There we agree upon that. 393 00:29:12.540 --> 00:29:16.060 We agree that the government has a very strong obligation to alleviate poverty, 394 00:29:16.300 --> 00:29:20.440 and there's a much longer tradition of this in China, arguably, than in the West. 395 00:29:20.580 --> 00:29:23.280 I mean, in the West, it's only in the past 300 years or so 396 00:29:23.960 --> 00:29:27.520 that governments have become committed to alleviating poverty. 397 00:29:28.860 --> 00:29:29.620 But in China, it's not. 398 00:29:29.640 --> 00:29:30.780 In China, it has a long history. 399 00:29:31.080 --> 00:29:33.780 But Mencius says that's not the end of the story. 400 00:29:34.320 --> 00:29:38.020 Those who are deprived of material goods are disadvantaged. 401 00:29:38.140 --> 00:29:42.020