WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.680 Welcome everybody. My name's Professor Malcolm Battisby. I'm Professor of Psychiatry at Flinders University. 2 00:00:05.240 --> 00:00:08.240 And it's my great pleasure to welcome you to the session, 3 00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:11.400 What if drugs were developed that had no negative side effects? 4 00:00:13.440 --> 00:00:15.960 I'm going to do a little bit of housekeeping before we start. 5 00:00:16.720 --> 00:00:20.360 And we've got to get this right. It's about switching mobile phones to silent. 6 00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:23.560 You don't have to switch them off. Silent would be the great thing to do. 7 00:00:23.980 --> 00:00:26.900 And during this session, you're most welcome to tweet at 8 00:00:26.900 --> 00:00:32.080 at ideas Adelaide and the hashtag is hash AFOI. 9 00:00:33.080 --> 00:00:36.820 So I'd like to welcome Olivia Carter, who's our speaker this morning, 10 00:00:37.580 --> 00:00:39.040 and a bit of background to Olivia. 11 00:00:39.240 --> 00:00:42.000 She's conducted a series of experiments in Switzerland 12 00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:46.380 looking at the effects of hallucinogenic drugs on healthy volunteers during a PhD. 13 00:00:47.820 --> 00:00:50.760 Olivia then worked for three years at Harvard University as a research fellow 14 00:00:50.760 --> 00:00:52.580 in the Vision Sciences Laboratory. 15 00:00:53.100 --> 00:00:56.720 She received a Harvard University certificate for teaching for a contribution 16 00:00:56.720 --> 00:01:00.560 to neurobiology and neuroethics of psychostimulant drug use in society. 17 00:01:01.220 --> 00:01:06.360 A senior research fellow and lecturer at Psychological Sciences at the University of Melbourne, 18 00:01:06.600 --> 00:01:09.500 she heads a perception and pharmacology research lab 19 00:01:09.500 --> 00:01:12.740 working to understand how the brain's natural chemicals 20 00:01:12.740 --> 00:01:15.480 control complex behaviours, thoughts and perceptions. 21 00:01:16.260 --> 00:01:19.660 And before Olivia comes up, I've got a few little housekeeping things 22 00:01:19.660 --> 00:01:21.520 about the overall program. 23 00:01:22.140 --> 00:01:23.600 There's a couple of changes in the program. 24 00:01:23.720 --> 00:01:26.140 John Giuradini, who was to start at 11.30, 25 00:01:26.720 --> 00:01:29.020 starting at 11.45 in the Elder Hall. 26 00:01:29.480 --> 00:01:32.560 And the Women in Politics session will now be in the Gervois Room. 27 00:01:32.800 --> 00:01:34.520 Both sessions start at 11.45. 28 00:01:35.800 --> 00:01:38.120 So this session's going to be about 30 minutes, 29 00:01:38.280 --> 00:01:40.400 Olivia talking to us and giving us her ideas. 30 00:01:41.100 --> 00:01:43.640 And then we have an interactive session 31 00:01:43.640 --> 00:01:47.580 where we ask you, the audience, to provide comments and questions. 32 00:01:47.720 --> 00:01:50.860 And for you to do that, we ask you to move to the back of the theatre 33 00:01:50.860 --> 00:01:52.480 where there's a microphone. 34 00:01:53.280 --> 00:01:56.540 And what we've experienced in these sessions over the last couple of... 35 00:01:56.540 --> 00:01:57.340 over the last day or so, 36 00:01:57.880 --> 00:01:59.980 is that people often get very passionate 37 00:01:59.980 --> 00:02:01.880 about wanting to put their particular point of view. 38 00:02:02.320 --> 00:02:04.020 And that might take up a lot of air time. 39 00:02:04.540 --> 00:02:05.240 So I'm going to... 40 00:02:05.240 --> 00:02:07.620 When I ask people to make comments and questions, 41 00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:10.120 I want you to think of three things you want to say, not 23, 42 00:02:11.040 --> 00:02:12.260 and ask a question. 43 00:02:12.880 --> 00:02:16.040 So just prepare for that during Olivia's session. 44 00:02:16.200 --> 00:02:18.780 So without any further ado, Olivia, please come to the... 45 00:02:19.660 --> 00:02:20.060 APPLAUSE 46 00:02:23.700 --> 00:02:25.720 First of all, thanks to everyone for coming 47 00:02:25.720 --> 00:02:26.520 and thanks to the audience. 48 00:02:26.540 --> 00:02:28.300 Thanks to the organisers for inviting me. 49 00:02:28.500 --> 00:02:30.480 So over the next 30 minutes or so, 50 00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:34.520 I want to discuss some of the recent advances 51 00:02:34.520 --> 00:02:37.580 and developments in the use of drugs 52 00:02:37.580 --> 00:02:41.220 and research looking at new uses of old drugs 53 00:02:41.220 --> 00:02:45.700 and how these developments could impact on our future. 54 00:02:45.860 --> 00:02:48.220 And I'll be talking about a lot of specific examples 55 00:02:48.220 --> 00:02:49.660 of current research that's going on 56 00:02:49.660 --> 00:02:51.680 and then try and discuss a bit more broadly 57 00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:53.020 about what these types of... 58 00:02:53.020 --> 00:02:56.480 what implications this might have to us as individuals. 59 00:02:56.540 --> 00:02:57.340 and as a society. 60 00:02:57.660 --> 00:03:03.740 So here I have a picture where we're looking at drugs. 61 00:03:03.900 --> 00:03:06.140 Now, I want to make the point that my talk 62 00:03:06.140 --> 00:03:08.340 is not going to be about the use of drugs for medical purposes. 63 00:03:08.580 --> 00:03:10.160 This is something that... 64 00:03:10.160 --> 00:03:12.400 Obviously, there's huge amounts of research being done. 65 00:03:13.200 --> 00:03:14.580 Generally, if you go to the doctor, 66 00:03:14.640 --> 00:03:16.700 the doctors are very open and there's good discussions 67 00:03:16.700 --> 00:03:20.100 about positive and negative side effects to different drugs. 68 00:03:20.260 --> 00:03:25.660 And what I'm talking about is the use of drugs and pharmacology 69 00:03:25.660 --> 00:03:26.100 to... 70 00:03:26.100 --> 00:03:29.800 to improve and enhance our normal wellbeing 71 00:03:29.800 --> 00:03:32.620 above normal human sort of capacities, 72 00:03:32.900 --> 00:03:34.580 cognitive abilities and this type of thing 73 00:03:34.580 --> 00:03:36.060 throughout the entire lifespan. 74 00:03:37.260 --> 00:03:41.020 OK, and the first thing I'm going to talk a little bit about 75 00:03:41.020 --> 00:03:43.700 is something that's been termed cosmetic pharmacology. 76 00:03:43.960 --> 00:03:47.700 And this is the idea that there are drugs 77 00:03:47.700 --> 00:03:49.800 that might be able to enhance mood, 78 00:03:51.460 --> 00:03:53.680 increase confidence, reduce anxiety 79 00:03:53.680 --> 00:03:56.080 and generally improve our ability to live a life 80 00:03:56.100 --> 00:03:57.460 that's not just about the ability to socialise with each other. 81 00:03:57.540 --> 00:03:59.260 I mean, it all sounds like very positive things 82 00:03:59.260 --> 00:04:00.500 and it might sound a little bit ridiculous. 83 00:04:00.720 --> 00:04:04.400 But actually, a number of years ago now, 84 00:04:04.480 --> 00:04:06.840 there was a book by Peter Kramer. 85 00:04:07.140 --> 00:04:09.220 It was called Listening to Prozac. 86 00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:11.620 And he was one of the initial psychiatrists 87 00:04:11.620 --> 00:04:16.240 that really started using a lot of Prozac in the clinic. 88 00:04:16.320 --> 00:04:18.100 And he wrote this book, which became... 89 00:04:19.100 --> 00:04:21.580 ended up on the number one top sellers list. 90 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:23.780 It was over a decade ago or so 91 00:04:23.780 --> 00:04:25.860 and it's very much... 92 00:04:26.100 --> 00:04:29.760 It's been credited with sort of increasing the general use 93 00:04:29.760 --> 00:04:33.920 of Prozac and antidepressants 94 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:36.400 sort of outside of the pure clinical usage. 95 00:04:36.580 --> 00:04:38.940 And I have to say, it's an incredibly interesting book. 96 00:04:39.040 --> 00:04:42.280 It's now a number of years old, but it's all about case studies. 97 00:04:42.360 --> 00:04:44.740 And I'm going to take you through just one example. 98 00:04:44.960 --> 00:04:47.760 And it's somewhat mind-bending 99 00:04:47.760 --> 00:04:51.320 at how these drugs can change so many aspects of an individual's personality. 100 00:04:51.900 --> 00:04:54.040 So this is all about Prozac, 101 00:04:54.100 --> 00:04:55.120 but there's a number of... 102 00:04:56.100 --> 00:04:58.900 other antidepressants that sort of work in a similar way. 103 00:04:59.240 --> 00:05:03.280 So the example he gives is of Tess. 104 00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:06.500 Now, critically, Tess is not clinically depressed. 105 00:05:06.920 --> 00:05:07.940 She's come into... 106 00:05:07.940 --> 00:05:08.560 He's a psychiatrist. 107 00:05:08.980 --> 00:05:09.500 She's... 108 00:05:09.500 --> 00:05:12.060 A patient has come in 109 00:05:12.060 --> 00:05:14.040 because she's having a number of problems with her life. 110 00:05:14.260 --> 00:05:16.200 Now, it's a bit of background. 111 00:05:16.320 --> 00:05:19.620 Tess grew up as the eldest of ten children 112 00:05:20.360 --> 00:05:24.400 and she was physically abused growing up. 113 00:05:24.420 --> 00:05:26.080 And her father... 114 00:05:26.100 --> 00:05:27.340 Her father died and her mother was depressed. 115 00:05:27.640 --> 00:05:30.600 So in the end, Tess raised the family herself. 116 00:05:31.200 --> 00:05:34.340 Now, prior to Prozac, as I said, 117 00:05:35.080 --> 00:05:36.220 Tess was not clinically depressed. 118 00:05:37.100 --> 00:05:39.660 She was involved in one destructive relationship after another, 119 00:05:39.760 --> 00:05:41.160 including multiple failed marriages, 120 00:05:41.240 --> 00:05:43.040 many affairs with abusive married men, 121 00:05:43.740 --> 00:05:45.820 always felt obliged to help others, 122 00:05:45.940 --> 00:05:47.560 particularly her sick mother, 123 00:05:48.200 --> 00:05:50.000 had very low self-worth, 124 00:05:50.100 --> 00:05:51.160 regularly cried, 125 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:52.660 unable to experience pleasure, 126 00:05:52.900 --> 00:05:53.800 absence of hope, 127 00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:54.940 loss of sleep and appetite, 128 00:05:55.200 --> 00:05:55.960 guilty thoughts. 129 00:05:56.100 --> 00:05:57.500 Sounds pretty dismal. 130 00:05:58.680 --> 00:06:01.320 Now, after Prozac, after taking for a few months, 131 00:06:01.420 --> 00:06:02.460 she reported being happier. 132 00:06:02.640 --> 00:06:04.220 This is what's amazing. 133 00:06:04.460 --> 00:06:05.260 Better social life. 134 00:06:05.300 --> 00:06:07.000 She went on three dates in a weekend. 135 00:06:07.720 --> 00:06:09.660 She was more confident and confident. 136 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:12.340 She asked for a promotion at work and received it. 137 00:06:12.580 --> 00:06:14.280 She stopped looking after her mother, 138 00:06:14.380 --> 00:06:15.960 moved to a different town, 139 00:06:16.100 --> 00:06:17.280 changed friends. 140 00:06:18.620 --> 00:06:20.400 She clearly became... 141 00:06:21.300 --> 00:06:23.580 sort of had a personality that was more approachable. 142 00:06:23.660 --> 00:06:23.940 She said, 143 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:25.900 people on the sidewalk asked me for directions. 144 00:06:26.100 --> 00:06:27.320 For the first time, 145 00:06:27.380 --> 00:06:28.580 I laugh more. 146 00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:29.920 All of these types of things. 147 00:06:30.320 --> 00:06:33.380 Then after the doctor took her off Prozac, 148 00:06:34.220 --> 00:06:35.360 the most remarkably said, 149 00:06:35.860 --> 00:06:37.320 I don't feel myself anymore. 150 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:38.940 She returned to how she was before. 151 00:06:39.400 --> 00:06:41.580 And this is actually a theme throughout the book, 152 00:06:41.660 --> 00:06:42.600 which is really... 153 00:06:43.260 --> 00:06:44.680 I find incredibly interesting 154 00:06:44.680 --> 00:06:47.500 how many, many of the patients 155 00:06:47.500 --> 00:06:48.520 that were taking these, 156 00:06:48.620 --> 00:06:50.020 given these drugs for the first time 157 00:06:50.020 --> 00:06:52.160 in sort of 20, 30, 40 years 158 00:06:52.160 --> 00:06:53.120 were reporting, 159 00:06:53.700 --> 00:06:55.480 finally, for the first time in my life, 160 00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:56.240 I feel like myself. 161 00:06:56.860 --> 00:06:57.060 I mean, 162 00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:00.200 that's an issue that I'm not going to get into today, 163 00:07:00.320 --> 00:07:02.860 but this idea that you can fundamentally change 164 00:07:02.860 --> 00:07:04.280 who you feel, 165 00:07:04.300 --> 00:07:05.040 how you feel, 166 00:07:05.080 --> 00:07:05.880 who you think you are, 167 00:07:05.940 --> 00:07:07.980 to me is incredibly interesting. 168 00:07:09.420 --> 00:07:11.640 And one thing that I think this raises is 169 00:07:12.740 --> 00:07:14.100 people often, you know, 170 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:15.280 think, well, 171 00:07:15.440 --> 00:07:17.540 it's not great if you're just taking a pill 172 00:07:17.540 --> 00:07:18.580 to sort of get more confident, 173 00:07:18.660 --> 00:07:19.460 feeling better about yourself. 174 00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:23.200 These types of things raises a lot of problems. 175 00:07:23.340 --> 00:07:24.940 And certainly across the US, 176 00:07:24.940 --> 00:07:26.740 there's a huge... 177 00:07:28.580 --> 00:07:32.280 there's a very large usage of these types of drugs 178 00:07:32.280 --> 00:07:34.440 for people that aren't clinically depressed. 179 00:07:34.740 --> 00:07:37.880 And my sense is that 180 00:07:37.880 --> 00:07:39.380 the average person on the street, 181 00:07:39.460 --> 00:07:41.860 if you had a colleague at work 182 00:07:41.860 --> 00:07:42.700 that was sort of... 183 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:45.340 was a shy person sitting in the corner, 184 00:07:46.180 --> 00:07:47.520 had a low self-confidence, 185 00:07:47.580 --> 00:07:49.040 was never really being promoted 186 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:50.720 and felt a bit sorry for themselves 187 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:52.000 and was struggling through life, 188 00:07:52.980 --> 00:07:54.500 if they took a pill, 189 00:07:54.940 --> 00:07:57.040 felt better, felt confident, got a promotion, 190 00:07:57.320 --> 00:07:58.940 you'd probably be a bit annoyed about that. 191 00:07:59.240 --> 00:08:02.300 Whereas if you found out that actually, 192 00:08:02.440 --> 00:08:03.620 all of a sudden, this person's more confident, 193 00:08:03.700 --> 00:08:05.580 they'd been reading all these self-help books, 194 00:08:05.740 --> 00:08:07.080 they'd been working really hard, 195 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:08.400 they took ownership of their problem, 196 00:08:08.560 --> 00:08:09.180 they thought, 197 00:08:09.280 --> 00:08:11.600 right, I really need to become more self-confident, 198 00:08:11.700 --> 00:08:13.000 I'm going to work hard at this, 199 00:08:13.100 --> 00:08:15.360 you'd somehow have admiration for that person. 200 00:08:15.640 --> 00:08:18.800 And one thing I'm just going to raise 201 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:20.180 as sort of philosophical question is, 202 00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:22.060 well, why is that? 203 00:08:22.220 --> 00:08:24.720 You know, why is it that the books and the... 204 00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:27.100 and the sort of therapy is considered 205 00:08:27.640 --> 00:08:29.220 necessarily so much better than drug use? 206 00:08:29.460 --> 00:08:32.220 Now, a lot of people would say... 207 00:08:33.040 --> 00:08:36.320 I should say, look, I'm being somewhat provocative here, 208 00:08:36.380 --> 00:08:39.700 but if you think about it, 209 00:08:39.740 --> 00:08:43.760 the extent to which anything is changing your mood, 210 00:08:43.860 --> 00:08:46.420 I mean, if you believe that the brain is what's generating your mood, 211 00:08:46.500 --> 00:08:50.040 then you need to think about how these books and therapies and things 212 00:08:50.040 --> 00:08:51.580 are actually influencing the same brain. 213 00:08:51.820 --> 00:08:54.620 And I think it's a very valid point that's often, 214 00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:57.580 you know, raised that, well, if you've got a problem, 215 00:08:57.680 --> 00:08:59.680 like if you're being abused and you're in abusive relationships, 216 00:09:00.100 --> 00:09:01.820 it's important to get to the bottom of that, 217 00:09:01.880 --> 00:09:04.200 you need to solve the larger life crisis. 218 00:09:04.340 --> 00:09:06.880 But if you think about it, here's a person who took a drug 219 00:09:06.880 --> 00:09:09.680 and she's on her own, has managed, 220 00:09:09.820 --> 00:09:12.100 with this extra confidence of the drug, 221 00:09:12.140 --> 00:09:14.200 has made massive life changes 222 00:09:14.720 --> 00:09:17.500 to actually put herself into a much safer environment. 223 00:09:18.900 --> 00:09:21.200 So, all right, I'll leave this here, 224 00:09:21.240 --> 00:09:23.040 but I'll just let you sort of think about this 225 00:09:23.040 --> 00:09:24.700 in terms of the ways that drugs can really, really help you. 226 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:27.520 They can really have profound influences on the way you view yourself 227 00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:31.760 and those around you, and sometimes for the better. 228 00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:35.700 Now, as I have here with the pills and the books, 229 00:09:35.780 --> 00:09:38.360 people often think, well, drugs are bad, 230 00:09:38.380 --> 00:09:41.640 but, you know, vitamins, natural compounds, they're okay. 231 00:09:42.460 --> 00:09:46.300 So I'm going to switch to a compound called oxytocin, 232 00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:51.160 which is a hormone that's found naturally in the brain. 233 00:09:51.320 --> 00:09:53.700 It's released from very deep within the brain. 234 00:09:53.700 --> 00:09:59.500 And it's most sort of well-known or understood to be important 235 00:09:59.500 --> 00:10:01.880 with mother-baby bonding, 236 00:10:01.980 --> 00:10:05.120 and it's released during lactation, during breastfeeding, 237 00:10:05.240 --> 00:10:10.040 and is very important in that sort of unbreakable bond 238 00:10:10.040 --> 00:10:11.040 between mother and child. 239 00:10:12.540 --> 00:10:15.980 Now, I'm going to take you through this experiment. 240 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:19.660 It's one of my sort of favourite experiments that I've ever come across. 241 00:10:19.700 --> 00:10:20.920 I think it's incredibly interesting. 242 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:23.660 And I'll just explain. 243 00:10:23.700 --> 00:10:27.840 So this was done a couple of years ago by a group in Switzerland. 244 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:31.700 And what they did is they set up a game. 245 00:10:32.300 --> 00:10:33.620 This was between university students. 246 00:10:33.980 --> 00:10:35.500 And there are a few important bits. 247 00:10:35.620 --> 00:10:39.900 They got a number of students in a waiting room prior to the experiment. 248 00:10:40.120 --> 00:10:44.240 So they had a sense that they were playing against real people. 249 00:10:44.340 --> 00:10:48.140 They knew not directly who their competitors were going to be, 250 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:53.040 but it was believable enough that they were playing against a real person. 251 00:10:53.160 --> 00:10:53.680 And they were playing against a real person. 252 00:10:53.700 --> 00:10:57.060 And so then they were taken to separate rooms. 253 00:10:57.280 --> 00:10:59.360 They didn't know who they were going to be playing against, 254 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:03.240 but they, as I said, they had a strong sense that it was a real person 255 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:04.660 that they'd just been sitting next to, 256 00:11:04.760 --> 00:11:06.780 a sort of stranger that they'd been sitting next to. 257 00:11:07.060 --> 00:11:08.340 And the game is this. 258 00:11:09.020 --> 00:11:11.620 The experimenter gives them $12, all right, 259 00:11:11.640 --> 00:11:14.740 and they can take that $12, put it in their pocket and walk away. 260 00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:20.320 Or they can give the other person in a room that they won't see, 261 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:23.120 but they give the other person $4, 262 00:11:23.120 --> 00:11:23.680 and they can take that $4 and put it in their pocket and walk away. 263 00:11:23.700 --> 00:11:24.940 So they've got $8 or $12. 264 00:11:25.340 --> 00:11:28.500 And any money given to the other person is automatically quadrupled. 265 00:11:28.800 --> 00:11:29.540 Okay, automatically. 266 00:11:29.980 --> 00:11:33.900 And then it's up to that other person to decide how much money to give back. 267 00:11:34.400 --> 00:11:35.000 All right. 268 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:36.440 So it's a complete trust game. 269 00:11:36.840 --> 00:11:40.520 And basically what could happen is you could keep the $12, 270 00:11:40.640 --> 00:11:42.880 give zero, and you'd end up with $12. 271 00:11:42.900 --> 00:11:43.820 Very nice and safe. 272 00:11:44.040 --> 00:11:48.180 If you kept $8, gave the $4, 273 00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:50.800 you could end up with a minimum of $8, maximum of $24, 274 00:11:50.840 --> 00:11:51.640 all the way through. 275 00:11:51.700 --> 00:11:52.740 If you gave everything, 276 00:11:52.740 --> 00:11:55.080 you could lose everything, 277 00:11:55.220 --> 00:11:56.700 or you could win $48. 278 00:11:57.220 --> 00:11:57.840 All right. 279 00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:00.640 So does that all make sense? 280 00:12:00.900 --> 00:12:02.000 It's a very nifty experiment. 281 00:12:02.700 --> 00:12:04.120 Then they did a very simple thing. 282 00:12:04.200 --> 00:12:05.440 Prior to the experiment, 283 00:12:05.680 --> 00:12:10.800 they gave just the investor squirted oxytocin up the person's nose. 284 00:12:11.020 --> 00:12:11.660 All right. 285 00:12:11.680 --> 00:12:12.320 It's simple as that. 286 00:12:12.360 --> 00:12:14.360 So this is a hormone squirted up the nose, 287 00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:16.980 and they asked the people to play the same game. 288 00:12:17.800 --> 00:12:20.580 And what they found is for some people, 289 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:22.140 they squirted the oxytocin up the nose. 290 00:12:22.140 --> 00:12:22.700 For other people, 291 00:12:22.800 --> 00:12:26.140 they just squirted a non-active ingredient, 292 00:12:26.340 --> 00:12:26.900 so just a placebo. 293 00:12:27.320 --> 00:12:30.960 And what they found is on the oxytocin, 294 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:36.020 people were twice as likely to donate the full amount of money. 295 00:12:36.160 --> 00:12:38.920 And overall, including every sort of person, 296 00:12:39.400 --> 00:12:41.960 the overall increase in the amount donated 297 00:12:41.960 --> 00:12:44.520 or given over to the trustee was increased by 20%. 298 00:12:45.140 --> 00:12:48.320 So you think about it in terms of larger economic decisions, 299 00:12:48.420 --> 00:12:51.040 that's actually a huge proportion of money. 300 00:12:51.040 --> 00:12:56.260 And they did a very important control where, 301 00:12:57.320 --> 00:12:57.920 as I said, 302 00:12:57.940 --> 00:12:58.760 in the first case, 303 00:12:58.800 --> 00:13:01.500 they went to a lot of effort to give people the impression 304 00:13:01.500 --> 00:13:03.240 that they were playing against real people. 305 00:13:03.580 --> 00:13:04.940 Anonymous, but real people. 306 00:13:05.540 --> 00:13:06.900 Now, in the second experiment, 307 00:13:07.040 --> 00:13:08.460 they said, 308 00:13:08.500 --> 00:13:11.680 look, the game is exactly the same, 309 00:13:11.700 --> 00:13:13.620 but you're not playing against a real person this time. 310 00:13:13.640 --> 00:13:14.540 You're playing against a computer 311 00:13:14.540 --> 00:13:17.240 that's been programmed to behave like a real person. 312 00:13:17.300 --> 00:13:20.380 So based on hundreds of games that have been played before, 313 00:13:20.380 --> 00:13:21.720 we'll take the probability 314 00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:25.400 at which you just get one of these real human behavioural responses. 315 00:13:25.900 --> 00:13:27.140 OK, so it was a risk game, 316 00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:30.320 but the probabilities were exactly the same as the real human behaviour. 317 00:13:30.560 --> 00:13:31.480 And in this situation, 318 00:13:31.520 --> 00:13:33.140 there was no difference in terms of the money 319 00:13:33.140 --> 00:13:35.240 that people gave to the computer. 320 00:13:35.460 --> 00:13:37.380 So they, and I think quite convincingly, 321 00:13:37.900 --> 00:13:40.740 argued that this really is something specific about trust. 322 00:13:41.020 --> 00:13:42.400 It's not just about risk. 323 00:13:42.680 --> 00:13:45.660 These are people that are feeling more of a sense of bonding 324 00:13:45.660 --> 00:13:48.480 with their fellow human beings. 325 00:13:49.820 --> 00:13:50.260 OK. 326 00:13:50.260 --> 00:13:52.140 So the question is, 327 00:13:52.180 --> 00:13:54.160 what are the implications for this? 328 00:13:54.660 --> 00:13:55.560 Good or evil? 329 00:13:55.700 --> 00:13:58.920 And I mean, one thing that really strikes me 330 00:13:58.920 --> 00:13:59.780 if you think about this 331 00:13:59.780 --> 00:14:02.140 is the idea that it's a nasal spray. 332 00:14:02.260 --> 00:14:04.360 So I just keep thinking that, you know, 333 00:14:04.380 --> 00:14:08.260 one day we'll walk into some sort of car salesman's office 334 00:14:08.260 --> 00:14:10.960 and there'll be oxytocin being sprayed through the vents. 335 00:14:11.940 --> 00:14:14.880 And this is obviously not going to be a good scenario. 336 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:17.280 But on the plus side, 337 00:14:17.400 --> 00:14:19.520 there's a lot of evidence has been, 338 00:14:19.520 --> 00:14:21.740 um, accumulating now. 339 00:14:21.840 --> 00:14:23.940 This is relatively early days, 340 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:26.520 but a lot of studies have been looking at things like, 341 00:14:26.580 --> 00:14:30.620 um, autism and postnatal depression. 342 00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:34.740 So really working at the sort of bonds with mother and child. 343 00:14:34.840 --> 00:14:37.760 And, um, in a lot... 344 00:14:37.760 --> 00:14:40.460 And also sort of social anxiety and these types of things. 345 00:14:40.540 --> 00:14:44.240 And it's having clear benefits towards these populations. 346 00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:49.420 And, um, one thing that is a potential down the track 347 00:14:49.520 --> 00:14:51.820 is thinking about these types of drugs for... 348 00:14:51.820 --> 00:14:52.680 You know, if... 349 00:14:52.680 --> 00:14:55.580 It's known from the sort of psychological literature 350 00:14:55.580 --> 00:14:59.280 that a very strong mother-child bond in the early years of life 351 00:14:59.280 --> 00:15:00.780 and parent bond, shouldn't you say, mother, 352 00:15:01.420 --> 00:15:03.640 is absolutely critical for a child 353 00:15:03.640 --> 00:15:07.280 to develop a strong sense of self and healthy future adult life. 354 00:15:07.500 --> 00:15:11.160 And the idea that these types of drugs and application 355 00:15:11.160 --> 00:15:12.400 might actually be useful 356 00:15:12.400 --> 00:15:18.060 in developing a healthy, stronger sort of adult, 357 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:19.420 I think is something that we need to... 358 00:15:19.420 --> 00:15:21.240 keep in the back of our minds. 359 00:15:22.160 --> 00:15:22.640 OK. 360 00:15:22.800 --> 00:15:25.740 But obviously there are some chances for evil there. 361 00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:26.440 Um... 362 00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:27.680 OK. 363 00:15:28.020 --> 00:15:29.580 Switching to another example, 364 00:15:30.420 --> 00:15:33.180 we've got the case of sort of productivity enhancing. 365 00:15:33.760 --> 00:15:35.320 So I think everyone's had this... 366 00:15:35.320 --> 00:15:38.520 this sensation of, you know, working too hard. 367 00:15:38.640 --> 00:15:41.740 I wish my three-year-old would fall asleep like that. 368 00:15:41.820 --> 00:15:43.340 But, um, anyway, 369 00:15:43.500 --> 00:15:46.100 partying too hard, staying awake all the time, 370 00:15:46.180 --> 00:15:47.520 it's very... it's very hard. 371 00:15:47.520 --> 00:15:50.940 And at the moment, there are... 372 00:15:50.940 --> 00:15:53.580 You know, the main alternative to this is sort of, 373 00:15:53.620 --> 00:15:54.920 well, you should sleep more. 374 00:15:55.000 --> 00:15:57.600 If you're too tired, just have your eight hours, 375 00:15:57.700 --> 00:15:58.640 ten hours sleep or whatever, 376 00:15:58.820 --> 00:16:01.300 and you'll probably be functioning better. 377 00:16:01.520 --> 00:16:05.740 Now, relatively recently, there was this drug, modafinil, 378 00:16:05.800 --> 00:16:08.420 that was designed specifically for narcolepsy. 379 00:16:08.880 --> 00:16:09.400 Um... 380 00:16:09.400 --> 00:16:12.420 And it's been found to be very effective. 381 00:16:12.740 --> 00:16:13.200 Um... 382 00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:16.680 And basically what... what this drug does 383 00:16:16.680 --> 00:16:17.420 is it... 384 00:16:17.520 --> 00:16:20.500 The claim is, is it reduces the need for sleep 385 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:25.340 without disrupting the normal sort of sleep-wake cycle. 386 00:16:25.560 --> 00:16:28.720 So, unlike caffeine, that you can... 387 00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:31.520 If you need to push through... through the night, 388 00:16:31.660 --> 00:16:33.120 you could probably do it and stay awake. 389 00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:35.500 At the end of it, you'd be jittery and a little bit crazy, 390 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:38.260 and you might really struggle to then fall asleep at the end of it all. 391 00:16:38.420 --> 00:16:43.320 So the claim with this drug is that that doesn't happen. 392 00:16:43.420 --> 00:16:45.740 You can take the drug, miss a night's sleep, 393 00:16:45.880 --> 00:16:47.500 and just sort of go back to sleep the next day. 394 00:16:47.500 --> 00:16:47.900 And then you can go back to sleep the next night. 395 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:49.280 That's... that's the claim. 396 00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:50.460 And, um... 397 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:55.160 I don't think there's huge uses of this drug within Australia, 398 00:16:55.220 --> 00:16:57.860 but certainly in the US and I think in Europe as well, 399 00:16:57.940 --> 00:16:58.760 it's more common. 400 00:16:58.920 --> 00:17:01.200 I've been offered this drug before. 401 00:17:01.260 --> 00:17:03.240