WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:16.100 Thank you very much, Steve Evans. Steve lectures at Flinders University in literature and creative writing and is the author of no less than 11 books, including a 30-year history of the Friendly Street Poets. 2 00:00:16.240 --> 00:00:27.260 And something I must ask him a bit more about another time is his PhD, which was done on wedding poetry. That's certainly unique and I'm sure it was particularly interesting. 3 00:00:27.260 --> 00:00:38.060 Well, good afternoon to you all. Firstly, I'd like to acknowledge we gather on the traditional lands of the Kaurna people and respect their cultural and spiritual connection to the land. 4 00:00:38.160 --> 00:00:52.420 I'd also like to welcome you on behalf of the City of Adelaide as the Lord Mayor of Adelaide to this beautiful town hall and this beautiful room to discuss what absolutely is one of my favourite topics. 5 00:00:52.860 --> 00:00:57.240 I was trying to think of some sort of introduction, but honestly, designing cities. 6 00:00:57.260 --> 00:01:04.080 Design cities is not rocket science. It's actually infinitely more complex. 7 00:01:05.620 --> 00:01:19.020 It's in Adelaide at least a million people who can choose a million different variables on any one day and make decisions based on the world around them and how they interpret and move through this space. 8 00:01:19.580 --> 00:01:26.700 It's not just Adelaide, of course. There's going to be 500 cities in the world over a million people within the next 20 years. 9 00:01:26.740 --> 00:01:27.160 In fact, 10 00:01:27.260 --> 00:01:34.440 just next week, I'll be in a city of 23 million, the city of Seoul, that's just been the world design capital. 11 00:01:34.700 --> 00:01:42.940 And I'm particularly interested in looking at the sorts of responses they've had to reengineering their city to be a place for people. 12 00:01:43.680 --> 00:01:47.580 Cities are going to have a huge challenge over the next few years. 13 00:01:47.760 --> 00:01:57.220 We're now pushing towards 8 billion people and we'll go beyond 9 billion in my lifetime with upwards of 70% of people. 14 00:02:00.160 --> 00:02:27.240 So we could probably be approaching about 1 billion people if we could deliver similar planning to the city we could deliver similar planning to the city we could deliver similar planning to the city we could deliver similar planning to the city we could deliver similar planning to the city we could deliver similar planning to the city we could deliver similar planning to the city we could deliver similar planning to the city we could deliver similar planning to the city we could deliver similar planning to the city we could deliver similar planning to the city we could deliver similar planning to the city we could deliver similar planning to the city we could deliver similar planning to the city we could deliver similar planning to the city we could deliver similar planning to the city we could deliver similar planning to the city we could deliver similar planning to the city we could deliver similar planning to the city we could deliver similar planning to the city we could deliver similar planning to the city we could deliver similar planning to the city we could deliver similar planning to the city we could deliver similar planning to the city we could deliver similar planning to the city we could deliver similar planning to the city we could 15 00:02:27.240 --> 00:02:31.240 give them opportunities and bring them to a quality of life, 16 00:02:31.340 --> 00:02:38.960 a decent basic quality of life that every single human being has a chance to enjoy. 17 00:02:39.880 --> 00:02:43.860 I think some of the other specific challenges we're going to have is technology. 18 00:02:44.600 --> 00:02:49.900 Transport is something that I've been, well, banging on about considerably lately, 19 00:02:50.680 --> 00:02:55.440 but also social issues in emerging global society. 20 00:02:56.760 --> 00:02:57.860 Globalisation of cities. 21 00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:02.960 But on the other side, the very nature of strong, resilient communities. 22 00:03:03.540 --> 00:03:09.100 How do we build authentic communities that can build society from the ground up 23 00:03:09.100 --> 00:03:12.840 to make sure that we actually care about each other, we help each other, 24 00:03:12.920 --> 00:03:19.620 and we support each other to become livable, productive and sustainable cities in the 21st century? 25 00:03:19.860 --> 00:03:24.420 I personally, in closing, would just reinforce that I passionately believe 26 00:03:24.420 --> 00:03:25.420 that the 21st century is a time of change. 27 00:03:25.420 --> 00:03:28.500 The 21st century will be the century of cities. 28 00:03:28.860 --> 00:03:36.400 And in fact, people's image and the image of societies to a certain extent 29 00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:39.960 is now moving away from nations and moving towards cities 30 00:03:39.960 --> 00:03:44.300 and the character and the communities and the identity of people towards cities. 31 00:03:44.740 --> 00:03:47.660 80% of carbon emissions come from these urban environments 32 00:03:47.660 --> 00:03:51.880 and there's a huge amount we need to do to restructure society, 33 00:03:52.200 --> 00:03:54.360 to make it fair, equitable, sustainable, 34 00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:57.540 and indeed more productive in the 21st century. 35 00:03:57.800 --> 00:04:00.320 We've got some very exciting speakers here today, 36 00:04:00.980 --> 00:04:06.380 so I will maybe just hopefully put that as a challenge to our speakers today. 37 00:04:07.040 --> 00:04:11.760 I will not tell you where the toilets are or give you some details about the speakers 38 00:04:11.760 --> 00:04:14.500 because that's Ben Hewitt's job today. 39 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:17.340 Now, he's got a very impressive CV. 40 00:04:17.380 --> 00:04:19.040 It's too long to read, I won't bother. 41 00:04:19.440 --> 00:04:21.480 No, I shouldn't do that to Ben. 42 00:04:21.940 --> 00:04:23.700 Ben's a good friend of mine. 43 00:04:23.760 --> 00:04:24.340 He's the South Australian. 44 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:26.040 South Australian Government Architect 45 00:04:26.040 --> 00:04:30.420 and Executive Director of the Integrated Design Commission in South Australia. 46 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:33.760 In his role, Ben provides strategic advice to government 47 00:04:33.760 --> 00:04:38.860 as well as council, Lord Mayors, and advocates for design 48 00:04:38.860 --> 00:04:42.540 by working across governments and with industry and academia. 49 00:04:43.720 --> 00:04:45.580 He's also the Director of 5000 Plus, 50 00:04:45.780 --> 00:04:48.460 an integrated design strategy for inner Adelaide. 51 00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:51.160 And please get involved in 5000 Plus. 52 00:04:51.340 --> 00:04:53.180 It's a very interesting exercise 53 00:04:53.180 --> 00:04:56.980 and certainly we're paving new ground with the State Government 54 00:04:56.980 --> 00:05:00.680 in collaboration to plan the future of the inner part of Adelaide. 55 00:05:00.860 --> 00:05:05.300 It's a collaborative national pilot project with all three tiers of government 56 00:05:05.880 --> 00:05:11.380 working together to have a creation of a design-led vision for Adelaide. 57 00:05:11.560 --> 00:05:15.720 Ben is also Director of Offshore Studio and Architectural Design Research Practice 58 00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:19.780 and he has previously worked as an architect in large and small practice 59 00:05:19.780 --> 00:05:21.840 as well as the New South Wales Government. 60 00:05:22.140 --> 00:05:22.940 Prior to his, 61 00:05:23.180 --> 00:05:24.280 Ben played a key role as the Government Architect. 62 00:05:24.620 --> 00:05:27.580 He was a Senior Lecturer with the University of Technology Sydney 63 00:05:27.580 --> 00:05:30.580 and at UTS he researched contemporary design processes, 64 00:05:30.940 --> 00:05:32.580 led various design studios, 65 00:05:32.900 --> 00:05:37.400 and developed and coordinated the highly regarded architectural practice stream. 66 00:05:38.040 --> 00:05:46.940 I was very fortunate to go on the Australian Institute of Urban Studies field trip 67 00:05:46.940 --> 00:05:51.100 to North America, to Scandinavia, 68 00:05:51.260 --> 00:05:53.160 where Ben and I had a meeting. 69 00:05:53.180 --> 00:05:56.180 We had the wonderful opportunity of each other's company 70 00:05:56.180 --> 00:06:01.040 and walking around cities like Stockholm, Copenhagen, Malmo, Amsterdam, 71 00:06:01.220 --> 00:06:05.960 and had some really fruitful discussions about the integrity of design, 72 00:06:06.140 --> 00:06:11.300 how design changes cities, transforms cities, and connects people and places. 73 00:06:11.560 --> 00:06:15.000 So I'm sure you'll enjoy Ben's emceeing today. 74 00:06:15.220 --> 00:06:16.620 We have some wonderful speakers. 75 00:06:16.880 --> 00:06:18.120 Please enjoy the Town Hall. 76 00:06:18.300 --> 00:06:19.840 Please enjoy the Festival of Ideas. 77 00:06:19.860 --> 00:06:21.840 It's wonderful to see you and have a lovely day. 78 00:06:21.900 --> 00:06:22.640 Thank you very much. 79 00:06:23.180 --> 00:06:23.600 Off to you, Ben. 80 00:06:28.940 --> 00:06:29.380 Okay. 81 00:06:29.940 --> 00:06:30.800 Welcome, everybody. 82 00:06:31.100 --> 00:06:31.980 Thank you for coming. 83 00:06:32.340 --> 00:06:33.940 A little bit of housekeeping. 84 00:06:34.420 --> 00:06:36.500 First, it's a bit strange, isn't it, the empty chair? 85 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:38.480 A little bit of housekeeping. 86 00:06:39.020 --> 00:06:40.720 Mobile phones to silent, please. 87 00:06:41.700 --> 00:06:42.520 Please tweet. 88 00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:46.860 It's at Ideas Adelaide and the hashtag is AFOI. 89 00:06:48.460 --> 00:06:52.800 So today's speakers are Elizabeth Farrelly, Stefan Lehmann, 90 00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:53.720 and Bart Lutzman. 91 00:06:54.520 --> 00:06:57.020 But first I want to ask, is everyone comfortable? 92 00:06:58.620 --> 00:07:01.420 I would hopefully take that as a sign that you're not 93 00:07:01.420 --> 00:07:04.860 because the festival is about ideas, 94 00:07:05.060 --> 00:07:07.040 and I hope that we do get uncomfortable today. 95 00:07:07.200 --> 00:07:09.720 I think that we should go away thinking from this, 96 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:14.180 that our conventional wisdoms and our dearly held assumptions 97 00:07:14.180 --> 00:07:16.680 are actually challenged by the speakers today 98 00:07:16.680 --> 00:07:18.100 and some of the ideas that come up, 99 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:22.680 and that we make that attempt to engage with the complexity of things, 100 00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:23.060 the teachings today, 101 00:07:23.260 --> 00:07:26.560 with the wicked problems with which we find ourselves dealing with. 102 00:07:27.660 --> 00:07:28.260 Okay. 103 00:07:28.360 --> 00:07:32.120 I feel very privileged to actually chair this panel in this space. 104 00:07:32.920 --> 00:07:35.520 And I'll start by introducing Bart Lutzman, 105 00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:39.800 a historian, a critic, a curator of architecture, design and the fine arts, 106 00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:43.900 a member of state and municipal committees in several countries, 107 00:07:44.200 --> 00:07:48.460 professor for architectural theory at Leopold Franzen's University, Innsbruck, 108 00:07:48.680 --> 00:07:51.980 guest professor for architecture, European urbanity, 109 00:07:52.680 --> 00:07:54.300 organisation at the University of Luxembourg, 110 00:07:54.420 --> 00:07:57.580 and critic in architecture at the Academy of Applied Arts in Vienna. 111 00:07:58.060 --> 00:07:59.840 I might cut these a little bit short 112 00:07:59.840 --> 00:08:02.640 because I think Stephen introduced the topic rather well. 113 00:08:02.840 --> 00:08:06.260 So we'll get to the next speakers. 114 00:08:06.860 --> 00:08:10.380 Next, Dr Elizabeth Farrelly, trained in architecture and philosophy, 115 00:08:10.660 --> 00:08:11.920 practised in London and Bristol, 116 00:08:12.140 --> 00:08:16.320 and holds a PhD in architecture from the University of Sydney, 117 00:08:16.380 --> 00:08:18.520 where she is also adjunct associate professor. 118 00:08:19.860 --> 00:08:22.520 She holds a number of national and international writing 119 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:24.860 awards and her books include Three Houses, 120 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:28.240 a monograph on the 2003 Pritchescoot Prize winner Glenn Merkert, 121 00:08:28.380 --> 00:08:31.400 and Blubberland, which explores the dangers of happiness. 122 00:08:32.440 --> 00:08:35.640 Stefan Lehmann, our third guest, is a German-born architect and urbanist 123 00:08:35.640 --> 00:08:41.480 and professor of sustainable design and director of the ZWSA Research... 124 00:08:41.480 --> 00:08:43.420 Zero Waste, SA, 125 00:08:43.640 --> 00:08:46.180 Research Centre for Sustainable Design and Behaviour 126 00:08:46.180 --> 00:08:47.960 at the University of South Australia. 127 00:08:48.420 --> 00:08:51.860 Stefan currently holds the UNESCO Chair in Sustainable Urban Development 128 00:08:52.680 --> 00:08:53.340 in Asia and the Pacific, 129 00:08:54.760 --> 00:08:57.900 and over the last 20 years has won a number of competition awards 130 00:08:57.900 --> 00:08:59.460 and prizes in sustainable architecture 131 00:08:59.460 --> 00:09:01.960 and published books on architectural and urban design. 132 00:09:03.200 --> 00:09:07.520 So, as part of framing the conversation for designing our future cities, 133 00:09:08.060 --> 00:09:11.360 I'd first just really like to understand a contemporary understanding of design 134 00:09:12.460 --> 00:09:18.360 and reject the old master approach as understood... 135 00:09:18.360 --> 00:09:20.420 The old master is usually male, 136 00:09:20.520 --> 00:09:21.880 as understood by architects, 137 00:09:21.880 --> 00:09:23.260 such as Le Corbusier, 138 00:09:23.380 --> 00:09:26.760 and realising projects such as Brasilia in South America, 139 00:09:27.040 --> 00:09:32.800 and as sort of evidenced and mythologised in books such as The Fountainhead, 140 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:36.840 and can also be seen, I think, in architects like Norman Foster 141 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:39.120 and Richard Rogers in the work at Barangaroo. 142 00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:42.760 So, I would like to posit that designing for future cities 143 00:09:42.760 --> 00:09:46.840 is not the master architect coming in and presenting a visionary skyscraper 144 00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:49.000 in a plaza that completely ignores its context. 145 00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:51.860 It's not the transit engineer who designs it, 146 00:09:51.880 --> 00:09:54.240 who designs more roads through cities to deal with congestion, 147 00:09:54.560 --> 00:09:57.840 and it's not the planners who decide that the best way of creating, 148 00:09:58.060 --> 00:10:02.020 albeit much needed, density is by increasing height limits alone. 149 00:10:02.800 --> 00:10:05.280 A contemporary version, or perhaps aspiration, 150 00:10:05.740 --> 00:10:07.880 for designing our cities is a group of people 151 00:10:07.880 --> 00:10:09.680 working across different disciplines, 152 00:10:09.940 --> 00:10:11.020 working together, 153 00:10:11.180 --> 00:10:13.560 that understand the interplay of these systems 154 00:10:13.560 --> 00:10:15.020 and the connectedness of things. 155 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:21.320 So, and if you like, that's the basis for the Integrated Design Commission. 156 00:10:21.320 --> 00:10:22.820 Excuse the little ad there, 157 00:10:22.940 --> 00:10:27.140 but the basis for us is collaboration and open communication, 158 00:10:27.520 --> 00:10:31.600 where research is an essential part of guiding decision-making for ourselves 159 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:33.300 and the advice we give back to government, 160 00:10:33.480 --> 00:10:35.900 and where people and communities are the central concern 161 00:10:35.900 --> 00:10:38.800 for how buildings, places and cities should work. 162 00:10:39.500 --> 00:10:41.220 So, that's the designing part of the topic. 163 00:10:41.860 --> 00:10:43.340 What's the future cities part? 164 00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:47.280 It is now well understood that we have to reduce our ecological footprint, 165 00:10:47.800 --> 00:10:51.200 that we can't continue the sprawler suburbia that eats our farming areas, 166 00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:55.100 increases our reliance on the car as the primary mode of transport, etc. 167 00:10:55.460 --> 00:10:56.880 How do we deal with growth? 168 00:10:57.900 --> 00:10:59.620 The average size of a new Australian home 169 00:10:59.620 --> 00:11:01.760 is the largest in the world at 215 square metres, 170 00:11:01.920 --> 00:11:05.640 up 10% in a decade and 40% in the last 30 years. 171 00:11:08.640 --> 00:11:12.500 And for comparison, the average size of a new American house 172 00:11:12.500 --> 00:11:16.560 is 202, 137 for Denmark and 76 for Britain. 173 00:11:18.100 --> 00:11:20.020 Adelaide's population is expected to increase 174 00:11:20.020 --> 00:11:22.700 by over half a million people by 2037. 175 00:11:22.980 --> 00:11:24.840 How do we plan and design for growth? 176 00:11:25.480 --> 00:11:26.900 It will not be with design alone. 177 00:11:27.460 --> 00:11:30.160 Understanding financing and governance are essential. 178 00:11:30.420 --> 00:11:32.260 And can we actually design these too? 179 00:11:33.060 --> 00:11:36.280 So, the Festival of Ideas and Adelaide over the past few years 180 00:11:36.280 --> 00:11:38.520 has heard from a number of people about design in cities, 181 00:11:38.740 --> 00:11:42.700 Herbert Giraudet on resilient cities rather than sustainable cities, 182 00:11:42.940 --> 00:11:48.560 clearly pointing to a future that many other thinkers in residence have also done, 183 00:11:48.560 --> 00:11:52.340 a future for our cities, a future way of thinking about our cities. 184 00:11:52.680 --> 00:11:55.860 We've heard Jan Gehl yesterday talk about cities for people, 185 00:11:56.120 --> 00:11:58.860 a focus on the eye level, the restriction of cars, 186 00:11:59.460 --> 00:12:01.540 Jeffrey Schumacher yesterday from New York City 187 00:12:01.540 --> 00:12:04.780 on smaller projects like the High Line 188 00:12:04.780 --> 00:12:07.480 integrating with larger strategic plans to change cities, 189 00:12:08.120 --> 00:12:11.260 and there are many, many other people working on cities. 190 00:12:12.560 --> 00:12:14.900 So, the first question is to Elizabeth, 191 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:17.860 and what will be the role of cities in the future, 192 00:12:17.860 --> 00:12:20.220 and what will be the role of design in shaping them? 193 00:12:21.540 --> 00:12:22.700 This is a small question. 194 00:12:22.920 --> 00:12:25.260 Yeah. It's just a small topic really, isn't it? 195 00:12:27.300 --> 00:12:31.560 I've just been debating with myself where to sort of start with this stuff. 196 00:12:32.220 --> 00:12:39.740 It seems to me that the city is the human species' greatest invention, 197 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:43.220 or perhaps artefact. 198 00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:44.980 I'm not sure what the distinction is there, 199 00:12:45.020 --> 00:12:46.800 but I think it has elements of both. 200 00:12:46.800 --> 00:12:49.500 And when I say invention, I think it's... 201 00:12:49.500 --> 00:12:53.580 I mean, it's an artefact in the sense that it is sort of designed and certainly made, 202 00:12:53.760 --> 00:12:58.840 but it's an invention in the sense that I think the principal purpose of the city, 203 00:12:59.420 --> 00:13:03.940 as an animal, is a sort of survival ship, if you like, 204 00:13:04.100 --> 00:13:06.440 for the human species on the face of a planet. 205 00:13:06.680 --> 00:13:09.480 And one of the things that intrigues me about cities 206 00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:13.020 is that you can see them as a way that we sort of, if you like, 207 00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:15.860 roughen the surface of the planet in order to... 208 00:13:16.800 --> 00:13:18.200 provide habitat for ourselves. 209 00:13:18.380 --> 00:13:24.940 In other words, we use nature in order to force her to defend us from her. 210 00:13:26.340 --> 00:13:27.300 Which is interesting. 211 00:13:27.400 --> 00:13:30.980 So it's a sort of collaborative thing, not just with ourselves, but with nature, 212 00:13:31.800 --> 00:13:33.780 in the defence of the human species against nature, 213 00:13:33.860 --> 00:13:35.800 which we like to think at the same time we're part of. 214 00:13:36.060 --> 00:13:40.300 So it's a very interesting and ambiguous kind of situation. 215 00:13:41.820 --> 00:13:46.000 But it seems to me that it's particularly pertinent for Australia at the moment 216 00:13:46.800 --> 00:13:50.220 at cities and how we make them. 217 00:13:51.860 --> 00:13:54.780 Because of this question of how we go forward in the future, 218 00:13:54.900 --> 00:13:57.800 and although I think the figure is now 50% worldwide, 219 00:13:58.140 --> 00:14:01.680 or was, I think it was 2008 we passed that figure, 220 00:14:01.800 --> 00:14:03.400 in terms of urbanised humanity, 221 00:14:03.720 --> 00:14:07.000 but in Australia it's much higher than that, something like 80%. 222 00:14:07.620 --> 00:14:12.380 Although in that urbanised quotient, of course, we include suburbanised, 223 00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:13.840 which is another question. 224 00:14:15.180 --> 00:14:15.660 But... 225 00:14:16.940 --> 00:14:20.200 The role of design in cities is problematic. 226 00:14:20.740 --> 00:14:24.720 I was thinking when Steve Jobs died, 227 00:14:24.940 --> 00:14:26.780 and there was all those eulogies about him, 228 00:14:26.800 --> 00:14:30.680 and of course we're eulogising him at the same time as all this stuff about how, 229 00:14:31.760 --> 00:14:35.260 you know, e-trash is jeopardising humanity and blah, blah. 230 00:14:35.380 --> 00:14:39.640 But one of the reasons that designers love Steve Jobs, of course, 231 00:14:39.640 --> 00:14:43.620 is that he made design sell hugely. 232 00:14:43.900 --> 00:14:46.060 He made design into something that was actually 233 00:14:46.680 --> 00:14:49.480 marketable and proved that time and time again 234 00:14:50.060 --> 00:14:52.600 by making us want a new iPhone every five minutes, 235 00:14:53.320 --> 00:14:54.740 which becomes the trash problem. 236 00:14:55.260 --> 00:14:58.140 But you sort of think, I think, what would it be like 237 00:14:58.140 --> 00:15:02.660 if there was a city designed, not necessarily by him, I suppose, 238 00:15:02.860 --> 00:15:06.740 but in the same way that made us love the city 239 00:15:06.740 --> 00:15:11.240 in the way that we now love our phones and our iPads and our et ceteras. 240 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:16.040 And I think that's the role for us. 241 00:15:16.060 --> 00:15:18.120 I think that's the role for designers, design professionals, 242 00:15:18.280 --> 00:15:23.000 but also city residents to collectively, 243 00:15:23.280 --> 00:15:25.920 in some how that has yet to be discovered, I think, 244 00:15:25.940 --> 00:15:30.000 collectively make cities that we love in the way, 245 00:15:30.140 --> 00:15:32.980 and as much as we love our techno devices. 246 00:15:33.900 --> 00:15:35.980 Because one of the things that's really noticeable 247 00:15:35.980 --> 00:15:39.620 and continues to intrigue me about cities of the modern world, 248 00:15:40.660 --> 00:15:44.440 and cities made by democratic capitalism, that is, 249 00:15:44.440 --> 00:15:46.200 is that we don't like them. 250 00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:49.880 You know, here we are with more wealth and more leisure 251 00:15:49.880 --> 00:15:54.040 and more freedom to make decisions and to speak our mind 252 00:15:54.040 --> 00:15:56.940 than humans have ever had at any time. 253 00:15:57.040 --> 00:16:02.180 And yet we cannot, it seems, make cities that even we like to be in. 254 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:04.060 And I think that's really interesting. 255 00:16:04.680 --> 00:16:08.600 Because the cities that we admire the most are the ones, broadly speaking, 256 00:16:08.740 --> 00:16:12.020 that have been produced by the regimes that we admire the least. 257 00:16:12.920 --> 00:16:14.420 You know, Napoleon, for example. 258 00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:16.480 But there's any number. 259 00:16:16.600 --> 00:16:20.760 And most of the fabulously beautiful cities were produced 260 00:16:20.760 --> 00:16:23.380 by totalitarianism of one kind or another. 261 00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:24.880 And that's interesting. 262 00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:30.580 And it relates back to the Al Gore thing about whether democracy 263 00:16:30.580 --> 00:16:36.360 can make the decisions that are required to avert climate change. 264 00:16:36.640 --> 00:16:38.900 And of course one of those decisions is going to be about 265 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:43.340 densifying our cities, which we don't want to do. 266 00:16:44.060 --> 00:16:46.180 Particularly Australians don't want to do. 267 00:16:46.280 --> 00:16:48.520 And the word density is a sort of... 268 00:16:48.520 --> 00:16:53.720 You know, we'll talk about green cities and we'll talk about urban agriculture 269 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:56.360 and we'll talk about tri-generation and all this sort of stuff. 270 00:16:56.640 --> 00:16:59.140 But when it comes to density, everybody goes, 271 00:16:59.300 --> 00:17:04.100 you know, six-packs, red brick walk-ups, no thank you, 272 00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:05.660 not happening in my neighbourhood. 273 00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:07.920 And politicians... 274 00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:12.380 Find a politician who will promote density. 275 00:17:12.380 --> 00:17:14.220 They don't exist in this country. 276 00:17:14.380 --> 00:17:14.840 It hasn't... 277 00:17:15.380 --> 00:17:16.220 It can't be discussed. 278 00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:20.060 You know, we just had the first sort of dangerous ideas in Sydney, 279 00:17:20.200 --> 00:17:23.520 but this is a dangerous idea for this country 280 00:17:23.520 --> 00:17:24.880 and we need to deal with it. 281 00:17:24.920 --> 00:17:26.960 And I think that the way to think about it is proximity. 282 00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:31.560 Proximity is another word for density, a nicer word maybe. 283 00:17:33.320 --> 00:17:37.380 It stimulates us, it annoys us, it makes us... 284 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:40.860 ..irritated, of course. 285 00:17:40.860 --> 00:17:42.120 But it also... 286 00:17:42.900 --> 00:17:46.720 I mean, cities are green, and I'm on the side of the debate that says 287 00:17:47.280 --> 00:17:49.460 the metropolis is the greenest way to live. 288 00:17:50.180 --> 00:17:53.220 And there is a debate amongst eco-minded people 289 00:17:53.220 --> 00:17:56.700 as to whether it's a metropolis or the sort of Amish village. 290 00:17:57.840 --> 00:18:00.960 But I believe strongly that it's the metropolis 291 00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:03.800 and that that sharing of resources needs to happen 292 00:18:03.800 --> 00:18:06.380 and that if we can bring ourselves to do that, 293 00:18:06.440 --> 00:18:08.960 there will be spin-offs in terms of cultural vitality. 294 00:18:09.840 --> 00:18:10.760 And not just that. 295 00:18:10.760 --> 00:18:12.540 But also, even if you look at the figures now, 296 00:18:12.660 --> 00:18:15.200 in terms of health, happiness, 297 00:18:15.800 --> 00:18:18.520 those things actually drop as you go out from the city centre, 298 00:18:18.620 --> 00:18:20.800 even in Australia, interestingly, if you look at the graphs. 299 00:18:21.540 --> 00:18:24.760 So I would like to see us reinvent, 300 00:18:25.120 --> 00:18:26.720 not abandon the city for the future, 301 00:18:26.800 --> 00:18:30.660 but reinvent in a way that is thrilling, that is exciting. 302 00:18:30.840 --> 00:18:33.360 I was going to put up pictures which I had yesterday of, you know, 303 00:18:33.380 --> 00:18:36.980 fog farms and, you know, algae towers and all the... 304 00:18:36.980 --> 00:18:40.740 When you actually put your mind to inventing a city, 305 00:18:40.760 --> 00:18:42.820 for the future, it can be very exciting. 306 00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:45.040 But we need to stop thinking of the city 307 00:18:45.040 --> 00:18:46.720 as something that's a sort of regrettable necessity 308 00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:53.160 and start thinking of it as a real collective artwork that we live in. 309 00:18:54.040 --> 00:18:54.560 Thanks. 310 00:18:55.460 --> 00:18:57.960 So, Bart, I guess it's almost... 311 00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:00.840 It's a similar question but perhaps more specific. 312 00:19:01.980 --> 00:19:03.060 And we know... 313 00:19:03.060 --> 00:19:05.760 And maybe this takes it out of an Australian condition 314 00:19:05.760 --> 00:19:08.020 into a more contemporary world condition 315 00:19:08.020 --> 00:19:10.280 where there are new cities being planned. 316 00:19:10.280 --> 00:19:13.240 And we know that, for the most part, 317 00:19:13.320 --> 00:19:17.580 new cities are actually planned by different disciplines to designers, 318 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:21.380 by planners, by transit and infrastructure engineers. 319 00:19:21.820 --> 00:19:24.780 That all happens before design even enters into the equation. 320 00:19:25.860 --> 00:19:28.380 So are we, in fact, asking the right question? 321 00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:29.500 Is this the right question? 322 00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:31.180 Can we even design cities? 323 00:19:32.920 --> 00:19:34.620 Now, obviously, we can. 324 00:19:34.740 --> 00:19:38.080 It happens in...particularly in Asia at the moment, 325 00:19:38.200 --> 00:19:40.260 but also partly in Europe and in the Netherlands. 326 00:19:40.280 --> 00:19:42.700 The Netherlands has a tradition of designing cities. 327 00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:44.240 So it can be done. 328 00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:48.740 But it is only a process that can be started. 329 00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:52.480 And on the other hand, right at this moment, 330 00:19:53.280 --> 00:19:58.660 an increasing part of the world lives in cities that are completely unplanned, 331 00:19:58.760 --> 00:20:01.660 that rise spontaneously. 332 00:20:02.620 --> 00:20:05.100 So the questions... 333 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:10.100 I would say there are almost three kinds of cities. 334 00:20:10.280 --> 00:20:11.900 Cities that have a history 335 00:20:11.900 --> 00:20:18.100 and have already a substance and a society living in them. 336 00:20:18.220 --> 00:20:21.980 There are cities that have to and can be planned anew. 337 00:20:22.020 --> 00:20:24.800 That is, of course, very depending on, let's say, 338 00:20:24.860 --> 00:20:27.860 the politics and also the possibilities of financing that. 339 00:20:28.040 --> 00:20:30.220 And that is something that has changed enormously. 340 00:20:30.740 --> 00:20:37.500 And then, a third, we have cities that come into being somehow spontaneously 341 00:20:38.280 --> 00:20:39.800 because of the growth of the population 342 00:20:40.280 --> 00:20:42.380 and the people moving towards cities. 343 00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:46.260 So those are three very different situations 344 00:20:46.260 --> 00:20:49.380 in which also the people that live in those cities 345 00:20:49.380 --> 00:20:51.260 have very different expectations 346 00:20:51.260 --> 00:20:55.400 and also situations in which politicians and designers 347 00:20:56.280 --> 00:20:58.800 have to work in very different ways. 348 00:21:00.980 --> 00:21:03.480 I think when you look at it, 349 00:21:03.520 --> 00:21:05.440 that 50% of the world lives in cities 350 00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:08.900 and 50% of those lives at this moment in shantytowns, 351 00:21:08.900 --> 00:21:13.140 I think that is an increasingly important issue. 352 00:21:15.540 --> 00:21:18.180 Let's say if you look still in the 1950s 353 00:21:18.180 --> 00:21:20.180 and you look at places like Singapore and Hong Kong, 354 00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:24.980 it was still possible to finance enormous collective housing projects. 355 00:21:25.580 --> 00:21:28.140 It seems to be possible in China at the moment, 356 00:21:28.260 --> 00:21:29.960 but for the largest part of the world, 357 00:21:30.040 --> 00:21:33.120 these solutions cannot be applied anymore. 358 00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:36.060 So the question how to design, let's say, 359 00:21:36.080 --> 00:21:37.620 to start with these shantytowns, 360 00:21:37.620 --> 00:21:40.340 how to design them is a completely different question 361 00:21:40.340 --> 00:21:42.540 than the question how you could design them 362 00:21:42.540 --> 00:21:43.820 in such a way that you could love them. 363 00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:47.920 It's much more about... 364 00:21:50.980 --> 00:21:54.260 That is a very, very different issue. 365 00:21:54.820 --> 00:21:59.320 In those cities, I suppose it's possible to change things, 366 00:22:00.900 --> 00:22:03.280 but you have to be very careful 367 00:22:03.280 --> 00:22:05.500 and you have to deal more with processes 368 00:22:05.500 --> 00:22:07.600 and analyse how you can start 369 00:22:07.620 --> 00:22:09.180 to somehow at the bottom do things. 370 00:22:10.320 --> 00:22:13.620 Then there are the cities that are planned new 371 00:22:13.620 --> 00:22:18.140 and these cities can draw back on all the theories 372 00:22:18.140 --> 00:22:20.300 that have been developed over the last couple of years. 373 00:22:20.540 --> 00:22:24.420 And they are realised, the Shenzhen's of this world 374 00:22:24.420 --> 00:22:27.480 or the Dubai's, they can be done, 375 00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:29.380 but then at a certain point it is clear 376 00:22:29.380 --> 00:22:32.740 that even with all the knowledge that we have today, 377 00:22:32.900 --> 00:22:36.180 at a certain point they have to live by themselves, 378 00:22:36.400 --> 00:22:37.600 and they have to live by themselves, 379 00:22:37.620 --> 00:22:38.760 and they have to be completed by themselves. 380 00:22:39.380 --> 00:22:42.800 And then we have the cities that have a history 381 00:22:42.800 --> 00:22:44.180 and a historical substance, 382 00:22:44.360 --> 00:22:46.440 whether it is a built substance 383 00:22:46.440 --> 00:22:49.580 or whether it's also the nature surrounding them, 384 00:22:49.800 --> 00:22:52.220 the people living in them and their expectations. 385 00:22:53.140 --> 00:22:58.580 And those cities are probably the most difficult to plan. 386 00:22:58.860 --> 00:23:01.860 These are usually cities in parts of the world 387 00:23:01.860 --> 00:23:06.000 where you can finance projects, 388 00:23:06.220 --> 00:23:07.600 but in these cities, 389 00:23:07.600 --> 00:23:07.920 in these cases, 390 00:23:07.980 --> 00:23:11.040 the dealing with the expectations of the people 391 00:23:11.040 --> 00:23:14.360 that live in them is the most difficult part, I think. 392 00:23:15.080 --> 00:23:16.960 And that leads quite well, I think, 393 00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:18.220 into my question for you, Stefan, 394 00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:22.360 which, and feel free to take up the theme developed so far, 395 00:23:22.520 --> 00:23:25.040 but given that by 2030, 396 00:23:25.520 --> 00:23:29.520 70% of all our building stock in Australian cities 397 00:23:29.520 --> 00:23:31.200 will already exist, 398 00:23:31.940 --> 00:23:34.880 what do we mean by future cities here? 399 00:23:35.080 --> 00:23:36.780 What does that mean? 400 00:23:37.600 --> 00:23:40.640 What is the final identification of city type? 401 00:23:40.760 --> 00:23:43.640 Sure, I mean, talking about uncertainty, 402 00:23:44.260 --> 00:23:46.500 one thing I can say with certainty 403 00:23:46.500 --> 00:23:49.800 is that the existing building stock 404 00:23:50.380 --> 00:23:52.940 that has to be integrated in any planning 405 00:23:53.600 --> 00:23:55.480 will always play a major role 406 00:23:55.480 --> 00:23:58.140 in any vision of a new city, of a future city. 407 00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:01.540 We have no ability to ignore it further. 408 00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:04.960 However, we need better ideas. 409 00:24:05.580 --> 00:24:07.580 That's why the Festival of Ideas might be here. 410 00:24:07.600 --> 00:24:08.240 That's why it's so helpful. 411 00:24:08.820 --> 00:24:11.520 How we re-engineer and how we retrofit 412 00:24:11.520 --> 00:24:13.400 this existing building stock, 413 00:24:13.580 --> 00:24:15.880 how we turn it from an energy inefficient 414 00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:17.960 to an energy efficient building stock, for instance, 415 00:24:18.180 --> 00:24:20.560 and how we retrofit our urban system. 416 00:24:20.780 --> 00:24:23.780 So, preferable such adaptive reuse 417 00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:27.200 is done with contemporary architecture 418 00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:28.640 in a contemporary way. 419 00:24:28.860 --> 00:24:31.820 And sometimes we can see wonderful bold examples 420 00:24:31.820 --> 00:24:33.180 how, for instance, 421 00:24:33.500 --> 00:24:36.100 Jeff Schumacher from New York City showed us 422 00:24:36.100 --> 00:24:37.220 the other day the High Line, 423 00:24:37.360 --> 00:24:38.740 an old piece of infrastructure 424 00:24:38.740 --> 00:24:42.020 has been reinvented in a bold contemporary way. 425 00:24:42.180 --> 00:24:44.560 What a success story it is, isn't it? 426 00:24:44.740 --> 00:24:47.560 But there is also, and that's where I come in, 427 00:24:48.040 --> 00:24:50.860 not just looking at the value of identity and culture 428 00:24:51.680 --> 00:24:52.960 that we have to maintain, 429 00:24:53.240 --> 00:24:56.500 which is embodied in our built fabric, 430 00:24:56.760 --> 00:24:59.360 but also looking at embodied energy 431 00:24:59.360 --> 00:25:01.380 and embedded materials, 432 00:25:01.640 --> 00:25:04.640 which play a role when we look at existing building stock. 433 00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:07.200 Now, there is a strong link between sustainability 434 00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:10.480 and adaptive reuse that hasn't been well understood. 435 00:25:10.760 --> 00:25:13.080 And I just spoke two days ago at the National Trust 436 00:25:13.960 --> 00:25:17.980 about the issue that the heritage group always says 437 00:25:17.980 --> 00:25:20.440 we have to maintain the existing buildings 438 00:25:20.440 --> 00:25:21.980 because of their cultural value. 439 00:25:22.320 --> 00:25:24.300 And I said, you guys have actually 440 00:25:24.300 --> 00:25:26.580 a very strong different argument that you can add 441 00:25:26.580 --> 00:25:29.040 to the cultural identity, which is fine, 442 00:25:29.240 --> 00:25:31.100 which is the sustainability debate. 443 00:25:31.780 --> 00:25:34.080 You know, if you demolish a building, 444 00:25:34.080 --> 00:25:35.760 it's highly unsustainable. 445 00:25:35.820 --> 00:25:38.240 Not only you create a lot of demolition waste 446 00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:39.120 that goes to landfill, 447 00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:40.500 but you lose the embodied energy. 448 00:25:40.900 --> 00:25:42.680 So I'm not talking just about monuments. 449 00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:46.460 I'm talking about a large chunk of the city. 450 00:25:46.560 --> 00:25:48.440 And you will know that, you know, 451 00:25:48.440 --> 00:25:54.140 every year 1.5% of architecture is added new to the city. 452 00:25:54.420 --> 00:25:56.560 And this is where all the media writes about 453 00:25:56.560 --> 00:25:58.440 and where all the focus of architects is. 454 00:25:58.540 --> 00:26:01.400 And we totally forget about 98.5% 455 00:26:01.400 --> 00:26:03.460 an overwhelming size. 456 00:26:04.080 --> 00:26:04.120 You know, there's not even one building 457 00:26:04.120 --> 00:26:04.920 that is already there. 458 00:26:05.460 --> 00:26:08.680 And I say the most sustainable building 459 00:26:08.680 --> 00:26:10.260 that you will ever come across 460 00:26:10.260 --> 00:26:11.540 is the one that already exists. 461 00:26:12.460 --> 00:26:13.580 It is already there. 462 00:26:14.100 --> 00:26:16.460 If you get rid of it, you're already loose. 463 00:26:16.760 --> 00:26:19.460 Then you have to make all kind of technical tricks 464 00:26:19.460 --> 00:26:22.540 to come up with six green star to make up for it. 465 00:26:22.700 --> 00:26:24.040 But I don't think that's a good way. 466 00:26:24.180 --> 00:26:25.220 And of course, 467 00:26:25.880 --> 00:26:28.120 rotting buildings on North Terrace 468 00:26:28.120 --> 00:26:30.920 and empty buildings on King William Street 469 00:26:30.920 --> 00:26:32.320 are a waste of a resource. 470 00:26:32.320 --> 00:26:40.940 And we're going to have to be smarter about and come up with better ideas how we reactivate our built heritage here in Adelaide. 471 00:26:41.320 --> 00:26:44.200 There are so many superb buildings that we do not use. 472 00:26:44.420 --> 00:26:50.260 Maybe there is some shop, some 24-7 shop, convenience store in ground floor. 473 00:26:50.360 --> 00:26:52.720 And above, eight, ten stories empty. 474 00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:54.280 Now, why is that? 475 00:26:54.520 --> 00:26:56.420 And we had a good debate the other day about that. 476 00:26:56.420 --> 00:27:06.300 And I think we have to be much more smarter, better ideas about offering financial mechanisms, incentives to property owners. 477 00:27:06.940 --> 00:27:09.720 To comply with the building code is very hard. 478 00:27:09.900 --> 00:27:12.160 It's very cost ineffective. 479 00:27:12.560 --> 00:27:13.720 So we have to help them. 480 00:27:13.900 --> 00:27:20.780 At the same time, there needs to be an agreement signed between the property owner to do certain things in a respectful way to the heritage. 481 00:27:20.980 --> 00:27:24.560 But in a very interesting, sustainable, modern way. 482 00:27:24.660 --> 00:27:25.200 Come in. 483 00:27:25.240 --> 00:27:26.320 Do adaptive research. 484 00:27:26.420 --> 00:27:27.140 And then you have to make some kind of agreement. 485 00:27:27.660 --> 00:27:29.240 What will be the rent in future? 486 00:27:30.040 --> 00:27:31.780 You want to keep the residence. 487 00:27:32.080 --> 00:27:35.640 You want to attract also young companies and start-ups. 488 00:27:35.720 --> 00:27:38.380 So this agreement, we've done this very successfully in Berlin. 489 00:27:38.560 --> 00:27:47.500 In fact, in Berlin, we renovated 50,000 units in less than a decade based on a clever way to make it interesting for those property owners. 490 00:27:47.780 --> 00:27:50.660 We renovated entire districts in a very short time. 491 00:27:50.740 --> 00:27:51.360 And we had to. 492 00:27:51.400 --> 00:27:55.520 And we had to do it in a social way that we kept the residence. 493 00:27:55.720 --> 00:27:56.400 That lived there. 494 00:27:56.420 --> 00:27:57.600 We lived there for 40, 50 years. 495 00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:03.520 We didn't want to make it impossible for them to afford, unaffordable for them later to stay. 496 00:28:03.640 --> 00:28:16.960 So what I'm really interested in in this regard is adaptive reuse that can be an urban catalyst, an urban regeneration that we have to get into in Adelaide urgently as a matter of urgency. 497 00:28:17.180 --> 00:28:22.280 I mean, we can have a wonderful academic debate between us without any relevance. 498 00:28:22.620 --> 00:28:25.080 The other hand, we could also ask for action. 499 00:28:25.260 --> 00:28:26.400 Come up with an action. 500 00:28:26.420 --> 00:28:26.600 We can have a demonstration plan. 501 00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:28.200 I'm looking at Steven Yeo. 502 00:28:28.420 --> 00:28:33.640 And what we need is a good urban infill series of demonstration projects. 503 00:28:34.460 --> 00:28:40.260 Demonstration projects that show how great adaptive reuse is, what it means to Adelaide. 504 00:28:40.360 --> 00:28:43.460 When we densify, it's not a problem. 505 00:28:43.600 --> 00:28:44.380 It's actually positive. 506 00:28:44.760 --> 00:28:46.840 People want to move back from the suburb. 507 00:28:46.980 --> 00:28:49.140 There is a whole migration back into the city center. 508 00:28:49.340 --> 00:28:55.340 We're going to have to have three, four very good demonstration projects now and have action and outcomes. 509 00:28:55.340 --> 00:29:01.700 And a delivery path out of all the debate about ideas that we can show and say, look how great it is. 510 00:29:01.840 --> 00:29:06.720 And people will come then and see this demonstration project and say, I want to have one like that. 511 00:29:06.820 --> 00:29:07.560 It's fantastic. 512 00:29:07.740 --> 00:29:12.040 I want to live in one building like that where there is a marriage between the new and the old. 513 00:29:12.340 --> 00:29:21.040 And I'm always enthusiastic about combining the new and the old because I believe it can be better than just the new and it can be better than just the old. 514 00:29:21.340 --> 00:29:24.360 The new and the old as the city is in constant flux. 515 00:29:24.360 --> 00:29:25.880 And transformation anyway. 516 00:29:26.100 --> 00:29:27.100 There is no end to that. 517 00:29:27.280 --> 00:29:32.600 So I keep saying to that management for instance in regard to Bowdoin urban village. 518 00:29:33.080 --> 00:29:35.500 What a great densification project that is. 519 00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:43.800 And I guarantee them the most attractive spaces are going to be the ones that I immediately rented are the ones in the old existing buildings. 520 00:29:44.080 --> 00:29:51.380 You know they keep from the clips of factory industrial heritage to keep a series of factories luckily and they integrate them well in the master plan. 521 00:29:51.540 --> 00:29:54.140 Those ones are going to be picked up, snatched up. 522 00:29:54.360 --> 00:30:01.380 And immediately before people go in those new concrete boxes they want to be in the old authentic heritage because it's so much better. 523 00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:04.040 Especially young graphic design companies. 524 00:30:04.540 --> 00:30:10.380 I think that to me that points really well to the contemporary understanding of design in terms of cities. 525 00:30:10.600 --> 00:30:15.180 That doesn't say it's this top down autocratic thou shall be. 526 00:30:15.400 --> 00:30:22.500 It's an approach that tries to deal with the messy complexity of what's occurring across design issues. 527 00:30:23.580 --> 00:30:25.460 Historical issues, heritage issues. 528 00:30:26.080 --> 00:30:28.620 But also how do you make this happen? 529 00:30:28.740 --> 00:30:31.000 How do you go about enacting this? 530 00:30:31.340 --> 00:30:35.980 Yeah and then you see just to add to that you see all over the world people are attracted to historical centers. 531 00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:39.500 In London and Barcelona and Berlin and everywhere. 532 00:30:39.700 --> 00:30:49.880 In Paris people love to go and see modern architecture inserted wonderfully in the old historical without overwhelming and overpowering but respecting the old. 533 00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:51.520 Being side by side. 534 00:30:51.560 --> 00:30:52.480 The modern and the modern. 535 00:30:52.500 --> 00:30:52.880 And the old. 536 00:30:52.980 --> 00:30:54.480 Having a wonderful relationship. 537 00:30:54.740 --> 00:30:56.340 And people love that all over the world. 538 00:30:57.540 --> 00:30:58.060 Okay. 539 00:30:58.140 --> 00:31:01.420 You touched briefly on the idea of certainty and uncertainty. 540 00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:04.500 I do want to bring it back to that higher level idea. 541 00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:09.880 And Elizabeth asked you as an architect you're an architect as well. 542 00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:17.440 I think our training, our experience tells us that teachers in a way to be comfortable with uncertainty. 543 00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:22.140 And so do you see this as an issue? 544 00:31:22.500 --> 00:31:28.320 Or this field the way we're talking about the city is this something to be embraced, rejected? 545 00:31:28.820 --> 00:31:29.960 How do we approach it? 546 00:31:30.520 --> 00:31:42.260 I think it's a very interesting question partly because the certainty uncertainty thing is I mean it's in a way it's an old question the uncertainty thing. 547 00:31:42.340 --> 00:31:46.680 It's a sort of you know the mark of modernism in theory. 548 00:31:46.820 --> 00:31:48.440 You know the Heisenberg etc. 549 00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:50.480 Was that the beginning of uncertainty. 550 00:31:50.740 --> 00:31:51.120 But the. 551 00:31:51.120 --> 00:31:53.640 The question of design. 552 00:31:54.080 --> 00:31:58.900 I mean architects like to be like to think of themselves as come towards uncertainty. 553 00:31:59.100 --> 00:32:04.280 But at the same time they need to make certainty because they're making objects in the end. 554 00:32:05.720 --> 00:32:10.800 Planners on the other hand who are at least as responsible for making cities as architects. 555 00:32:11.760 --> 00:32:13.240 I would argue more so. 556 00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:19.460 And engineers and project managers all three of those professions tend to trade uncertainties. 557 00:32:19.460 --> 00:32:20.320 And to rely. 558 00:32:21.120 --> 00:32:22.100 On certainties and. 559 00:32:23.380 --> 00:32:24.940 You know planners like to make. 560 00:32:25.940 --> 00:32:28.460 And I have to apologize to any planners here before I insult them. 561 00:32:28.540 --> 00:32:29.460 But I insult everybody. 562 00:32:29.740 --> 00:32:30.840 So you know it's fair. 563 00:32:32.820 --> 00:32:36.480 Planners like to make colored maps zoning maps you know height maps. 564 00:32:36.700 --> 00:32:40.000 And they tend to see in that very abstract way. 565 00:32:40.300 --> 00:32:46.000 And actually that's about as pictorial as they get because most plans are really words just words. 566 00:32:46.300 --> 00:32:48.840 And that's what they tend to call a vision whereas architects. 567 00:32:50.100 --> 00:32:54.840 The single strength and possibly also weakness of architects as they like to make images. 568 00:32:55.120 --> 00:32:58.500 And they need they think in images they think in three dimensions. 569 00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:10.500 And I think if we use it properly that's a huge strength for the future because that can be the sort of seductive process of persuading people that cities are actually where they want to be. 570 00:33:11.620 --> 00:33:17.500 And I like to think I suppose that urban design is the marriage of those that urban design is the profession. 571 00:33:17.500 --> 00:33:19.420 Which is still fledgling. 572 00:33:20.140 --> 00:33:24.220 That can marry you know the abstraction of the planners. 573 00:33:25.100 --> 00:33:47.400 You know who like everything to be formulated in rules and the creativity but object centeredness of the architects who get too focused on the object arguably that bringing those together into a new thing called urban design which actually is able to prioritize the spaces not not the buildings but to design. 574 00:33:47.400 --> 00:33:47.480 Not not the buildings. 575 00:33:47.500 --> 00:33:48.240 But to design the city as. 576 00:33:49.400 --> 00:33:58.400 Connectivity is as connected spatial networks and to let the buildings come in to design the rules around those spatial networks. 577 00:33:59.260 --> 00:34:09.860 Rather than designing the buildings urban designers need to design the rules that then shape the buildings that sort of fill in so that you make the spaces first and then the rules and then. 578 00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:14.040 And then the solid stuff that just shapes those spaces. 579 00:34:14.140 --> 00:34:16.100 That's I think the way that cities ought to be made. 580 00:34:16.100 --> 00:34:19.440 And it's almost completely the reverse of the way that we actually make them. 581 00:34:19.960 --> 00:34:21.940 But I think that would allow us. 582 00:34:22.040 --> 00:34:27.100 I think that's actually how we were talking to Philip Adams this morning about Central Park and how Central Park was made. 583 00:34:27.180 --> 00:34:28.100 I think that's largely it. 584 00:34:28.120 --> 00:34:40.020 They there were sort of some basic rules and some basic plots and Central Park was sacred and around that people sort of did what they wanted to and it filled in gradually over time and made this wonderful room. 585 00:34:40.260 --> 00:34:45.960 You know I think that might be in part one of my my next question to you which which I'll ask any. 586 00:34:46.100 --> 00:34:48.240 I think anyway because I think it could help it. 587 00:34:48.440 --> 00:34:51.500 And the question was history is littered with failed visions. 588 00:34:51.860 --> 00:34:56.280 I think it's very clear and we blame architects for those visions. 589 00:34:56.640 --> 00:34:57.740 It's a very easy thing to do. 590 00:34:57.860 --> 00:35:15.700 In fact young girl did this yesterday as part of setting up the way he works that he showed the image of here is the image that architects make and it's the super real rendering that computer technology allows us and it has all the trees that are fully 591 00:35:15.700 --> 00:35:16.080 And we blame architects for those visions it's a very easy thing to do. 592 00:35:16.080 --> 00:35:33.960 And then he shows here is the reality which is the deliberately amateur photo of a not quite completed building with the landscape not having grown on a rainy day when there are no people and sort of as evidence of the vision of architects failing. 593 00:35:35.880 --> 00:35:40.500 Yet I would sort of say that's here you go because I want to be a little bit controversial. 594 00:35:40.720 --> 00:35:45.860 I think that's actually slightly naive in understanding the way cities actually come about. 595 00:35:46.080 --> 00:35:54.340 Because I think we probably all know if we scratch the surface that it's in the implementation how things are financed how things are governed. 596 00:35:55.380 --> 00:35:56.740 What's the leadership involved in this. 597 00:35:56.900 --> 00:35:59.800 How is it followed through how is the vision delivered if you like. 598 00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:13.720 And so I guess you know that you've offered urban design and that that method is a way of thinking through cities differently but are there models perhaps with design finance governance come together. 599 00:36:13.860 --> 00:36:15.300 Is that a possible. 600 00:36:15.300 --> 00:36:15.400 Is that a possible. 601 00:36:15.460 --> 00:36:16.060 Is that a possible. 602 00:36:16.080 --> 00:36:17.720 Is that a solution is that too broad a question as well. 603 00:36:18.100 --> 00:36:19.260 It's a very broad question. 604 00:36:19.680 --> 00:36:22.420 It would be nice to think that that could work the vision thing. 605 00:36:23.260 --> 00:36:26.420 I was just being the city council in Sydney for one term. 606 00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:36.080 It's what we used to talk about the vision thing you know someone would have to do the vision thing and someone would eventually draw something in the end the vision thing is still an issue. 607 00:36:36.240 --> 00:36:43.280 I think visions much as they might be hallucinations sometimes are good and unnecessary. 608 00:36:43.640 --> 00:36:45.460 We need to envision our future. 609 00:36:45.520 --> 00:36:46.060 But we need to be able to do it. 610 00:36:46.080 --> 00:36:51.420 We need to be able to do it in a way that's still loose enough to allow for the unforeseeable clearly. 611 00:36:52.140 --> 00:37:01.380 And the best cities of course are those that grow that are not made as objects but are allowed in some way to grow. 612 00:37:01.500 --> 00:37:15.840 What we don't know I think as democracies Western democracies generally can't seem to grasp how to allow that growth in a way that makes lovely cities. 613 00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:19.440 And cities that will persuade us by their loveliness to want to be in them. 614 00:37:21.480 --> 00:37:26.080 Democracy is a real problem because and I think it's part of the basic human nature. 615 00:37:26.720 --> 00:37:37.760 The reason that democracy is a problem because when you ask people what they want what they want what each of us wants as a primate is lots of space and a house with trees outside the window and birds and blah blah blah. 616 00:37:38.780 --> 00:37:42.720 And that's the sort of that's what that's the way we vote that 10. 617 00:37:42.740 --> 00:37:44.740 We tend to vote on those innate. 618 00:37:45.040 --> 00:37:45.640 You know. 619 00:37:45.640 --> 00:37:45.820 You know. 620 00:37:45.820 --> 00:37:47.440 Any jerk desires. 621 00:37:48.440 --> 00:37:53.140 So democracy is this desire based system and capitalism too is a desire based system. 622 00:37:53.200 --> 00:37:55.520 But what's interesting about what we want. 623 00:37:55.740 --> 00:37:59.760 Is that it doesn't give us what we really want. 624 00:38:00.300 --> 00:38:01.040 It doesn't. 625 00:38:01.080 --> 00:38:05.340 It tends not to give us what we want as individuals but not what we want as a collective. 626 00:38:05.720 --> 00:38:07.540 What we might want a beautiful city. 627 00:38:07.700 --> 00:38:12.380 But what we want as individuals is actually actively destroying and undermining and eating away. 628 00:38:12.900 --> 00:38:13.740 Why shanting. 629 00:38:13.880 --> 00:38:14.280 That. 630 00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:14.820 Beautiful. 631 00:38:14.920 --> 00:38:15.180 City. 632 00:38:15.220 --> 00:38:15.480 Every. 633 00:38:15.520 --> 00:38:15.700 Time. 634 00:38:15.720 --> 00:38:15.800 We. 635 00:38:15.800 --> 00:38:18.360 we make another land release on the city fringes, 636 00:38:18.460 --> 00:38:21.240 it's white-anting this city. 637 00:38:21.400 --> 00:38:23.060 And the reason these buildings are empty 638 00:38:23.060 --> 00:38:26.440 is because everybody is allowed to go out there. 639 00:38:26.580 --> 00:38:31.480 So I suppose if I were king, I would wall cities. 640 00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:34.160 I would say, not necessarily physically, 641 00:38:34.380 --> 00:38:36.640 but there is an absolute boundary 642 00:38:36.640 --> 00:38:38.240 beyond which there is no building. 643 00:38:38.340 --> 00:38:38.940 End of story. 644 00:38:39.120 --> 00:38:41.220 Out there is wilderness or farmland, 645 00:38:41.300 --> 00:38:43.360 but in here is where we live. 646 00:38:43.360 --> 00:38:45.940 We do the best thing for nature by staying out of it. 647 00:38:46.380 --> 00:38:48.460 And we also do the best thing for the city. 648 00:38:48.600 --> 00:38:50.260 And that's, you know, Edward Glazer says, 649 00:38:50.380 --> 00:38:52.580 the city is the place where the human being 650 00:38:52.580 --> 00:38:53.620 shines most brightly. 651 00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:56.960 And I believe that's true, that by doing that, 652 00:38:57.000 --> 00:38:59.100 by constraining what we desire 653 00:39:00.180 --> 00:39:03.260 in the interest of what we collectively kind of need, 654 00:39:04.560 --> 00:39:06.280 the payoff, if we can do that, 655 00:39:06.320 --> 00:39:07.540 which at the moment we can't, 656 00:39:07.580 --> 00:39:10.460 is, you know, cultural vitality and excitement 657 00:39:10.460 --> 00:39:12.960 and the thrill in the active streets and stuff. 658 00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:13.240 But... 659 00:39:13.240 --> 00:39:15.740 So that going into the future is what I'd like to see, 660 00:39:15.820 --> 00:39:17.780 as well as, of course, of the environmental, 661 00:39:18.580 --> 00:39:19.840 the sustainability payoffs. 662 00:39:20.080 --> 00:39:21.720 And I think that's a fantastic segue 663 00:39:21.720 --> 00:39:24.780 to Bart's presentation yesterday. 664 00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:26.620 I'm not sure if many of you heard it, 665 00:39:26.680 --> 00:39:29.820 but Bart was talking about globalisation, 666 00:39:31.180 --> 00:39:32.640 individualism, populism in architecture, 667 00:39:32.960 --> 00:39:35.880 that literally we've been sold individualism 668 00:39:35.880 --> 00:39:36.980 in the 20th century. 669 00:39:37.220 --> 00:39:40.340 And one of the sort of unintended outcomes of this 670 00:39:40.340 --> 00:39:41.740 is urban sprawl. 671 00:39:43.180 --> 00:39:47.140 So, I mean, maybe that's a chance for you 672 00:39:47.140 --> 00:39:50.540 to unpack that a little bit for this topic and audience. 673 00:39:52.240 --> 00:39:52.880 Yes. 674 00:39:53.060 --> 00:39:57.220 Well, what is definitely an enormous change 675 00:39:57.220 --> 00:40:01.220 over the last decades is that we do not... 676 00:40:01.780 --> 00:40:03.360 We're not aware, at least. 677 00:40:03.620 --> 00:40:05.780 Maybe we do share collective issues, 678 00:40:05.960 --> 00:40:11.000 collective problems, risks, but also desires and wants. 679 00:40:11.140 --> 00:40:11.720 But... 680 00:40:11.740 --> 00:40:15.040 But somehow we are not collectively aware of them anymore. 681 00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:17.680 We're very aware of what we want ourselves. 682 00:40:17.960 --> 00:40:19.920 We're trained in shopping. 683 00:40:20.140 --> 00:40:24.160 We're trained in selecting our favourite television channels. 684 00:40:24.340 --> 00:40:26.280 But we are not very good anymore 685 00:40:26.280 --> 00:40:31.820 in coming together and finding collective solutions. 686 00:40:32.440 --> 00:40:35.320 And I think this is also something 687 00:40:35.320 --> 00:40:37.760 that will not so quickly be solved. 688 00:40:37.880 --> 00:40:41.500 It will be a problem also for the politicians, I think. 689 00:40:41.740 --> 00:40:45.380 And politicians these days are not so much elected 690 00:40:45.380 --> 00:40:48.040 on the presentation of collective problems 691 00:40:48.040 --> 00:40:50.140 and promising to work on them, 692 00:40:50.260 --> 00:40:55.160 but they're much more elected on dealing with very specific, 693 00:40:55.340 --> 00:40:58.480 emotional desires of people. 694 00:40:58.900 --> 00:41:02.440 And our desires are so powerful. 695 00:41:02.780 --> 00:41:07.500 And also the way our desires can be manipulated is so powerful 696 00:41:07.500 --> 00:41:09.960 that it overshadows many of these issues. 697 00:41:10.560 --> 00:41:11.360 And... 698 00:41:11.360 --> 00:41:11.720 And... 699 00:41:11.740 --> 00:41:17.020 On one hand, I think cities have become so big 700 00:41:17.640 --> 00:41:20.800 that they allow for different quarters with different characters 701 00:41:22.580 --> 00:41:24.280 and different solutions. 702 00:41:24.760 --> 00:41:25.860 That is important. 703 00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:30.520 But on the other hand, it is, of course, important to have an idea 704 00:41:30.520 --> 00:41:34.640 about some aspects that should count for all of us. 705 00:41:34.840 --> 00:41:37.160 Because we should not forget that urbanism, 706 00:41:37.180 --> 00:41:40.580 the most important thing about urban planning and urban design, 707 00:41:40.740 --> 00:41:41.720 is equality of the public. 708 00:41:41.720 --> 00:41:42.040 And that is the quality of justice. 709 00:41:42.300 --> 00:41:44.800 Not equality, not justice, but equality of justice. 710 00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:46.500 If you're allowed to do something here, 711 00:41:47.920 --> 00:41:51.700 then someone else can say, okay, if he or she has the right 712 00:41:51.700 --> 00:41:55.000 to do this here, I should be entitled to do that too. 713 00:41:55.360 --> 00:41:59.380 So that is something which is really important. 714 00:41:59.620 --> 00:42:01.220 And it starts with the very basic fact 715 00:42:01.220 --> 00:42:04.780 that you can't build your house next to the window of another 716 00:42:04.780 --> 00:42:06.340 because then you block the view and the light. 717 00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:11.700 But it's basically, that is a very important basis of urbanism. 718 00:42:11.700 --> 00:42:14.960 So there are these things we share, 719 00:42:15.020 --> 00:42:16.760 these things that have to be organized. 720 00:42:17.660 --> 00:42:21.520 And apart from very basic facts like traffic, sustainability, 721 00:42:21.700 --> 00:42:26.940 and whatever, I think what is also important is that we have, 722 00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:30.200 we try to develop a new shared idea 723 00:42:30.200 --> 00:42:31.980 about how we organize these things, 724 00:42:32.120 --> 00:42:34.540 how we manage these things, how we govern these things. 725 00:42:34.840 --> 00:42:41.620 Because many of our, of the mechanisms we use are an 726 00:42:41.700 --> 00:42:43.020 age old or ages old. 727 00:42:43.520 --> 00:42:51.520 And when we react so differently nowadays, and also when we collectively, 728 00:42:52.460 --> 00:42:55.420 how shall I put it, are so much better informed 729 00:42:55.420 --> 00:43:00.080 than our grandfathers or even our fathers and grandfathers were, 730 00:43:00.260 --> 00:43:04.000 that also means that we can be involved in a different way. 731 00:43:04.260 --> 00:43:07.600 And that is an incredibly important task for the future, 732 00:43:07.740 --> 00:43:09.440 how to deal with that and how 733 00:43:09.440 --> 00:43:11.040 to organize our democracy. 734 00:43:11.700 --> 00:43:12.660 And we could implement these new technologies in a different way, 735 00:43:12.740 --> 00:43:13.720 particularly if we're planning. 736 00:43:16.180 --> 00:43:19.660 And so, Stephan, I've got another question for you, 737 00:43:19.680 --> 00:43:22.000 I think a little off the back of adaptive reuse 738 00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:26.620 and keeping the heritage, but hopefully not going down that path. 739 00:43:28.260 --> 00:43:31.140 And this idea if you like wanting to keep it all, 740 00:43:31.240 --> 00:43:33.820 perhaps from that individualism position, 741 00:43:35.420 --> 00:43:39.340 are we in fact being counterproductive in our cities 742 00:43:40.060 --> 00:43:41.680 and perhaps a very tantalizing 743 00:43:41.680 --> 00:43:47.680 tangible example of this might be, does our love of heritage promote, in fact, tall buildings? 744 00:43:48.080 --> 00:43:54.600 By keeping a very low scale of single storey buildings, does that mean for a city to gain 745 00:43:54.600 --> 00:44:01.900 a critical mass, to actually have anything but the mainstream, you have to provide extremely 746 00:44:01.900 --> 00:44:03.460 tall buildings to compensate for that? 747 00:44:03.860 --> 00:44:04.740 Interesting thought. 748 00:44:04.820 --> 00:44:06.420 I know where you're getting at. 749 00:44:06.420 --> 00:44:10.200 Of course, somewhere all that grows has to go somewhere. 750 00:44:11.320 --> 00:44:17.060 All our research gives evidence that the most sustainable building is actually the one between 751 00:44:17.060 --> 00:44:19.580 four and seven storeys, not high rise. 752 00:44:20.100 --> 00:44:25.460 If you go beyond 25 storeys, and I keep telling this to our colleagues in Singapore and China 753 00:44:25.460 --> 00:44:30.740 and so on, it's very interesting to rethink the urban block, and the Dutch have been wonderful 754 00:44:30.740 --> 00:44:31.420 in doing that. 755 00:44:31.600 --> 00:44:34.100 You've done some wonderful work on the urban block. 756 00:44:34.300 --> 00:44:36.320 I believe strongly sustainable. 757 00:44:36.420 --> 00:44:41.560 I believe that sustainability is about creativity and innovation, and wonderfully we can design 758 00:44:41.560 --> 00:44:42.740 our way out of it. 759 00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:49.580 I'm a strong believer that there is an optimistic attitude we have to have towards that. 760 00:44:50.500 --> 00:44:52.680 Earlier you asked who is to blame. 761 00:44:52.920 --> 00:44:54.180 Is it the urban designer? 762 00:44:54.420 --> 00:44:55.440 I thought that's quite interesting. 763 00:44:55.800 --> 00:45:00.620 I always think we should probably, if we blame somebody, we should blame the traffic planner. 764 00:45:01.160 --> 00:45:04.720 The traffic planner has many of them, not all. 765 00:45:04.840 --> 00:45:06.400 But many traffic planners have a very strong sense of responsibility. 766 00:45:06.420 --> 00:45:08.440 They have destroyed communities for 50 years. 767 00:45:09.400 --> 00:45:13.580 They cut big roads right through them and split them. 768 00:45:14.080 --> 00:45:22.820 I think now we have evidence, Ben, that the damage of standing in congestion in Australia 769 00:45:22.820 --> 00:45:27.820 alone is $10 billion a year, 1% of the GDP. 770 00:45:28.240 --> 00:45:34.240 I think we need to now really make sure we're getting innovative traffic transport ideas, 771 00:45:34.500 --> 00:45:36.400 which integrate public transport. 772 00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:38.580 And reduce our car dependency. 773 00:45:38.860 --> 00:45:42.420 That's really the big way forward, I believe. 774 00:45:42.880 --> 00:45:49.380 And of course, we also, not only what I said earlier, looking at right density models and 775 00:45:49.380 --> 00:45:54.540 compactness is a good word to replace probably density, about the existing city. 776 00:45:54.700 --> 00:45:56.740 At the same time, why not thinking about a new city? 777 00:45:57.620 --> 00:46:00.440 We haven't had a new city in Australia since Canberra. 778 00:46:00.840 --> 00:46:03.000 It's maybe time to think about a new city. 779 00:46:03.160 --> 00:46:06.100 Now today we know a lot about... 780 00:46:06.100 --> 00:46:06.380 I think we're going to have to think about a new city. 781 00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:07.740 We know where those cities make much sense. 782 00:46:08.020 --> 00:46:13.180 For instance, along the coast, where do we have a lot of wind, where do we have the right 783 00:46:13.180 --> 00:46:17.440 amount of sun, that we can run this new city entirely on renewables. 784 00:46:17.520 --> 00:46:18.520 How wonderful would that be? 785 00:46:18.660 --> 00:46:24.800 And we can invent, as we have so much growth, you know, China is building 200 new cities, 786 00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:29.940 we should think about one, and think about staging it, and say, okay, where should that 787 00:46:29.940 --> 00:46:35.500 go, that we really can run it, where we have enough water, enough wind, enough sun, and 788 00:46:35.500 --> 00:46:39.380 And what should then be the urban system be that we would like to implement 789 00:46:39.380 --> 00:46:41.420 and the densities within that new city? 790 00:46:42.040 --> 00:46:45.220 I don't think it would be a city that has any high-rise, by the way. 791 00:46:46.340 --> 00:46:49.180 It is a new city, so it wouldn't have any heritage either. 792 00:46:49.400 --> 00:46:54.280 But we better design the city well because we create now the heritage of tomorrow, of course. 793 00:46:54.600 --> 00:46:59.640 So those ideas are very interesting and I'm working with my students now on an idea. 794 00:46:59.640 --> 00:47:04.980 Where should we have a new city and how can we make sure this is a zero-carbon 795 00:47:04.980 --> 00:47:10.580 or positive energy, positive city for Australia to adapt to growth and how big should it be? 796 00:47:11.140 --> 00:47:19.740 And how can it grow in an intelligent way without eating up precious landscape and agricultural land? 797 00:47:19.820 --> 00:47:20.980 You alluded to that earlier. 798 00:47:21.620 --> 00:47:24.400 It will be a gross boundary city. 799 00:47:24.600 --> 00:47:26.880 That is not uncontrolled sprawl. 800 00:47:27.060 --> 00:47:28.560 I always say in Australia, 801 00:47:28.740 --> 00:47:29.620 the urban system is a city that has no heritage. 802 00:47:29.620 --> 00:47:35.280 The urbanization in Australia is quite interesting because we decompacted the city for 60, 70 years. 803 00:47:35.760 --> 00:47:42.040 We could do so because we had the car, the automobile allowed us to have all these shopping malls somewhere outside 804 00:47:42.040 --> 00:47:45.420 and to have highways and so on. 805 00:47:45.560 --> 00:47:51.420 Now after decompacting and moving outwards, we have to turn that around, say enough is enough 806 00:47:51.420 --> 00:47:56.260 and we have to develop the city towards the inside again and recompact the city. 807 00:47:56.380 --> 00:47:57.320 And this is a challenge. 808 00:47:57.360 --> 00:47:58.900 It is a paradigm shift. 809 00:47:58.900 --> 00:48:01.880 And it will certainly be for the better. 810 00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:08.180 The sustainable, the regenerative city as Herbert Schirrady calls it is the one that is compact, 811 00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:15.260 mixed use, probably without high rise, has a gross boundary, understands the importance 812 00:48:15.260 --> 00:48:20.440 of a good public space network that makes walking and cycling very pleasant and very safe 813 00:48:20.440 --> 00:48:28.880 and has public transport and green parks integrated in a way that is pleasant and it makes us happy. 814 00:48:28.880 --> 00:48:32.400 To come back to Elizabeth's point, we are not happy. 815 00:48:32.800 --> 00:48:37.260 I know a couple of cities I love, by the way, and they make me happy, but I'm not going to say which ones. 816 00:48:38.100 --> 00:48:43.200 And so before I throw to the audience for a question, get something ready to come up, 817 00:48:43.300 --> 00:48:47.520 I would like to say that perhaps there is a danger in finding somebody to blame. 818 00:48:47.860 --> 00:48:48.260 Yeah. 819 00:48:48.280 --> 00:48:49.580 And that sort of idea. 820 00:48:50.460 --> 00:48:51.200 I didn't want to. 821 00:48:51.340 --> 00:48:51.420 It's fun. 822 00:48:51.760 --> 00:48:52.060 It's fun. 823 00:48:52.180 --> 00:48:53.100 I will admit to that. 824 00:48:53.300 --> 00:48:58.860 But I would sort of see architects as culpable, as planners, as traffic pilots. 825 00:48:58.880 --> 00:49:02.660 As planners, as leaders, as politicians, as communities, as citizens. 826 00:49:02.960 --> 00:49:10.380 And I think it's that acceptance of a shared responsibility perhaps for what didn't work to move on. 827 00:49:10.460 --> 00:49:13.280 Perhaps that's slightly esoteric or philosophical about it. 828 00:49:13.420 --> 00:49:14.480 I absolutely agree, Ben. 829 00:49:14.660 --> 00:49:18.640 Yeah. I wouldn't want to come away from today blaming any one particular discipline. 830 00:49:19.720 --> 00:49:22.200 So are there any questions from the audience? 831 00:49:22.540 --> 00:49:23.200 Yes, please. 832 00:49:23.320 --> 00:49:26.020 Come to the microphone in the front here. 833 00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:28.720 My name is David Benthoven. 834 00:49:28.760 --> 00:49:28.860 I'm a professor at the University of New York. 835 00:49:29.660 --> 00:49:37.000 I like the concept that the title for this talk really should be redesigning the cities for the future, 836 00:49:37.060 --> 00:49:38.560 a much more creative concept. 837 00:49:38.880 --> 00:49:39.160 Yeah. 838 00:49:39.260 --> 00:49:46.860 The last point about this attractive city, I'm continually surprised at the lack of vision in a way in front of me. 839 00:49:46.940 --> 00:49:55.000 I'm a 62-year-old just about to be baby boomer whose children, small in number, live all over the world. 840 00:49:55.180 --> 00:49:58.500 The kind of city that you are describing is the kind of city that me 841 00:49:58.500 --> 00:50:02.800 and my contemporaries will need to live in in the next 20 years. 842 00:50:02.900 --> 00:50:07.940 If we don't live in that kind of city, I mean, our healthcare system will be unable to sustain us. 843 00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:09.200 We'll become bankrupt. 844 00:50:09.300 --> 00:50:11.480 The future is me and my generation. 845 00:50:11.720 --> 00:50:18.720 The question for cities is how can I be attracted to live in the kind of context and community that you desire? 846 00:50:19.000 --> 00:50:23.340 It won't be difficult because that's where I'll actually want and need to live. 847 00:50:25.140 --> 00:50:27.660 So perhaps less a question and more an observation. 848 00:50:29.240 --> 00:50:29.720 Provocation. 849 00:50:29.960 --> 00:50:30.800 Provocation, yeah. 850 00:50:31.520 --> 00:50:37.460 You invited us to be a bit uncomfortable, so maybe I'll head slightly in that direction. 851 00:50:37.880 --> 00:50:42.940 I've been to most of the talks about city design and there have been several at this festival. 852 00:50:43.640 --> 00:50:54.800 And I see all of them dominated by people like you who are into the physical, transport, planning, architecture and so on. 853 00:50:55.180 --> 00:50:58.480 And it seems to me that there's room for other people to be sitting up there and saying, 854 00:50:58.480 --> 00:51:01.520 You're not the only one sitting up there who have got a much closer connection with the social. 855 00:51:01.900 --> 00:51:07.760 Where are the anthropologists, the sociologists, the psychologists, the people who understand human behaviour 856 00:51:07.760 --> 00:51:10.480 and how to meet the needs of human beings? 857 00:51:11.560 --> 00:51:13.720 I'd like to see some of them sitting there. 858 00:51:14.740 --> 00:51:15.980 You might want to comment. 859 00:51:17.100 --> 00:51:22.480 You probably have to talk to the organizers around that idea when you get invited to a panel. 860 00:51:26.220 --> 00:51:28.460 It's absolutely a question of time. 861 00:51:28.480 --> 00:51:34.160 correct. Apart from all the parties that we have been discussing, I mean, there's also, 862 00:51:34.240 --> 00:51:43.080 of course, all of us who produce space and all of us who may produce space even in ways 863 00:51:43.080 --> 00:51:50.540 that contradicts our rationality. So to understand that, I think exactly also the sociologists, 864 00:51:50.540 --> 00:52:01.420 the social geographers, and all those people are very important. Until now, I do not see 865 00:52:01.420 --> 00:52:08.260 much vision from those people, but they can at least contradict planners and politicians 866 00:52:08.260 --> 00:52:15.500 in many ways, and they can verify the visions of planners and politicians in many ways. 867 00:52:15.560 --> 00:52:20.520 So yes, it is absolutely important. But the most important today, and I think it's very 868 00:52:20.520 --> 00:52:21.640 important, is that we have to be very careful about what we do. And I'm not speaking just 869 00:52:21.640 --> 00:52:28.660 about the cities that somehow come into existence at the moment, the shantytowns all over the 870 00:52:28.660 --> 00:52:35.280 world, but in general, I think all of us have an incredible influence on the city, in the 871 00:52:35.280 --> 00:52:43.860 cars we drive, in the almost unnoticeable activities that we carry out. And basically, 872 00:52:44.060 --> 00:52:48.960 to exaggerate that, all of us vote with our feet every day. 873 00:52:49.380 --> 00:52:50.500 And I think that's very important. 874 00:52:50.520 --> 00:52:58.220 I think it is incredibly important to get an idea about that, to get an idea about these 875 00:52:58.220 --> 00:53:04.520 contradictions. And therefore, exactly the parties that you mentioned are crucial. They should 876 00:53:04.520 --> 00:53:11.340 be researching constantly all these things. In fact, when you look at the modernist city 877 00:53:11.340 --> 00:53:18.400 planning as it developed in Europe, and even in parts of the United States, let's say from 878 00:53:18.400 --> 00:53:20.060 1900 to... 879 00:53:21.240 --> 00:53:28.020 1970, a large part of these planning departments consisted of social geographers, sociologists, 880 00:53:28.200 --> 00:53:34.900 et cetera, who were doing constant surveys. And somehow, since the 1970s, these departments 881 00:53:34.900 --> 00:53:40.800 have become smaller and smaller and less influential. Now, in itself, that's understandable. 882 00:53:41.040 --> 00:53:46.740 At a certain point we thought that we knew everything and could go on with it. But exactly 883 00:53:46.740 --> 00:53:49.640 from the 70s on, of course, there were enormous changes. 884 00:53:49.760 --> 00:53:50.040 01 885 00:53:50.060 --> 00:53:52.460 energy, but also 886 00:53:52.460 --> 00:53:53.860 in our individual behavior. 887 00:53:54.400 --> 00:53:55.820 So, and 888 00:53:55.820 --> 00:53:58.440 I believe very strongly in it that 889 00:53:58.440 --> 00:54:00.520 an important part also of politics 890 00:54:00.520 --> 00:54:02.660 and of the organization 891 00:54:02.660 --> 00:54:04.540 of civil servants is to do 892 00:54:04.540 --> 00:54:06.260 this kind of research. So yes, it is a 893 00:54:06.260 --> 00:54:07.360 very important point. 894 00:54:07.800 --> 00:54:09.940 I would like to remind you that the 895 00:54:09.940 --> 00:54:12.500 first framing of the conversation was the 896 00:54:12.500 --> 00:54:14.360 rejection of the single 897 00:54:14.360 --> 00:54:16.420 author, the single discipline 898 00:54:16.420 --> 00:54:18.300 that we do need to work together. 899 00:54:18.300 --> 00:54:20.420 Making city is always a multidisciplinary 900 00:54:21.080 --> 00:54:22.540 process. That's clear. 901 00:54:22.860 --> 00:54:24.660 And, you know, 902 00:54:24.700 --> 00:54:26.520 sociologists have a very strong place 903 00:54:26.520 --> 00:54:28.520 in that. One of the big topics we face 904 00:54:28.520 --> 00:54:30.540 today is behavior change, and 905 00:54:30.540 --> 00:54:31.960 the increase of consumption, 906 00:54:32.720 --> 00:54:34.580 and certain types of lifestyle 907 00:54:34.580 --> 00:54:36.600 that have an increased 908 00:54:37.280 --> 00:54:38.400 consumption outcome. 909 00:54:38.740 --> 00:54:40.660 And that's a big topic, and we can only solve 910 00:54:40.660 --> 00:54:42.580 those topics when social studies come in 911 00:54:42.580 --> 00:54:44.360 very strongly. But I will also 912 00:54:44.360 --> 00:54:45.860 like to remind you 913 00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:47.820 two other things. 914 00:54:48.300 --> 00:54:50.320 Urban governance, very good processes, 915 00:54:50.480 --> 00:54:52.840 and leadership of the politicians 916 00:54:52.840 --> 00:54:54.440 is absolutely essential. 917 00:54:54.680 --> 00:54:56.420 Otherwise, we don't get anywhere. And then 918 00:54:56.420 --> 00:54:58.460 to include the economists in that 919 00:54:58.460 --> 00:55:00.100 debate. In fact, 920 00:55:00.200 --> 00:55:02.320 while we claim we need a new 921 00:55:02.320 --> 00:55:04.540 urban model, what we probably might need 922 00:55:04.540 --> 00:55:06.360 is a new economic model, as 923 00:55:06.360 --> 00:55:08.220 Peter Hett propagates from 924 00:55:08.220 --> 00:55:10.000 London, rightly so, 925 00:55:10.140 --> 00:55:11.980 because if you look at China, 926 00:55:12.080 --> 00:55:14.080 China now has adapted the American 927 00:55:14.080 --> 00:55:16.080 model that drives GDP 928 00:55:16.640 --> 00:55:17.960 entirely through growth. 929 00:55:18.300 --> 00:55:20.160 More consumption creates more 930 00:55:20.160 --> 00:55:21.600 GDP is great 931 00:55:21.600 --> 00:55:24.360 for China. And we, in fact, 932 00:55:24.380 --> 00:55:25.800 in Australia, profitate from that. 933 00:55:26.020 --> 00:55:27.740 If China stops 934 00:55:27.740 --> 00:55:29.980 to consume and consumption drops 935 00:55:29.980 --> 00:55:32.040 down, we would have a serious problem 936 00:55:32.040 --> 00:55:34.080 here because of the way we are connected 937 00:55:34.080 --> 00:55:36.240 to China. Now, this can't 938 00:55:36.240 --> 00:55:38.020 go on forever. In fact, 939 00:55:38.160 --> 00:55:39.320 this is highly dangerous, 940 00:55:40.300 --> 00:55:41.800 and I think the economist 941 00:55:42.440 --> 00:55:43.700 needs to be challenged, 942 00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:45.840 the economists, to come up with a new, 943 00:55:46.020 --> 00:55:48.020 better economic model that is 944 00:55:48.020 --> 00:55:49.980 not driven just by GDP and endless 945 00:55:49.980 --> 00:55:51.860 growth, because there are limits of growth. 946 00:55:52.620 --> 00:55:53.940 We could talk much more about it. 947 00:55:54.400 --> 00:55:56.000 Herbert's got a question. We'll have 948 00:55:56.000 --> 00:55:57.120 to make this one the last one. 949 00:55:58.060 --> 00:56:00.040 Yeah, I think we, above all else, need a new 950 00:56:00.040 --> 00:56:02.160 ecological model, not just an economic model. 951 00:56:02.460 --> 00:56:03.880 I mean, when you look, for instance, the 952 00:56:05.040 --> 00:56:06.320 location for Adelaide 953 00:56:06.320 --> 00:56:07.940 was because it was somewhere 954 00:56:07.940 --> 00:56:09.880 near the end of the Murray River, 955 00:56:09.980 --> 00:56:12.200 and the flow of the river was taken for granted. 956 00:56:12.560 --> 00:56:13.880 A couple of years ago, it nearly 957 00:56:13.880 --> 00:56:16.000 dried up. Now, a desalination 958 00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:17.940 plant is being built. So, this, 959 00:56:17.940 --> 00:56:19.880 I think, is a critical issue, not just 960 00:56:19.880 --> 00:56:21.860 in terms of water supply, but also 961 00:56:21.860 --> 00:56:23.980 in terms of future food 962 00:56:23.980 --> 00:56:26.000 supply to cities, and that is becoming 963 00:56:26.000 --> 00:56:27.680 a very, very urgent issue, because 964 00:56:27.680 --> 00:56:29.580 global urbanization means 965 00:56:29.580 --> 00:56:31.260 ecological footprints 966 00:56:31.260 --> 00:56:33.580 stretching across the planet in ways 967 00:56:33.580 --> 00:56:35.520 that is just extraordinary. For instance, 968 00:56:35.700 --> 00:56:37.440 Chinese cities that used to be 969 00:56:37.440 --> 00:56:39.800 largely self-sufficient from their 970 00:56:39.800 --> 00:56:41.960 nearby hinterland, as meat consumption 971 00:56:41.960 --> 00:56:43.700 and other consumption 972 00:56:43.700 --> 00:56:45.940 goes up, suddenly China 973 00:56:45.940 --> 00:56:47.780 is buying land in Sudan, in 974 00:56:47.780 --> 00:56:49.960 Ethiopia, in Brazil, and so on, 975 00:56:49.960 --> 00:56:51.580 in order to assure that the 976 00:56:51.580 --> 00:56:53.620 urban existence can be 977 00:56:53.620 --> 00:56:55.760 assured in terms of future food supply. 978 00:56:55.940 --> 00:56:57.380 Energy supply being another 979 00:56:57.380 --> 00:56:59.680 critical issue. I think, certainly, 980 00:56:59.820 --> 00:57:01.540 when we look at the question of 981 00:57:01.540 --> 00:57:03.640 designing cities for the future, unless 982 00:57:03.640 --> 00:57:05.400 we have an ecological model, 983 00:57:05.580 --> 00:57:07.700 and I would say, in this context, the concept 984 00:57:07.700 --> 00:57:09.640 of regenerative urbanization, 985 00:57:09.840 --> 00:57:11.560 that city doesn't just take from nature, 986 00:57:11.680 --> 00:57:13.440 but gives back to nature, is 987 00:57:13.440 --> 00:57:14.240 critically important. 988 00:57:14.920 --> 00:57:17.200 Thank you. So, perhaps some last 989 00:57:17.200 --> 00:57:17.760 questions. 990 00:57:17.780 --> 00:57:19.580 Last comment from the panel, very brief comments. 991 00:57:19.960 --> 00:57:21.700 Last comment. Well, two things. One is, 992 00:57:22.300 --> 00:57:23.760 in response to the person who was talking about 993 00:57:23.760 --> 00:57:25.700 sociologists and anthropologists, an 994 00:57:25.700 --> 00:57:26.960 interesting model in that regard is 995 00:57:27.620 --> 00:57:29.720 what's been happening in Paris in the last two or three years 996 00:57:29.720 --> 00:57:31.700 that you might know a little bit about, Le Grand Paris, 997 00:57:31.920 --> 00:57:33.780 which invited teams of 998 00:57:33.780 --> 00:57:35.760 not just architects, but, and not 999 00:57:35.760 --> 00:57:37.640 just planners, but all poets 1000 00:57:37.640 --> 00:57:39.700 and philosophers and all kinds 1001 00:57:39.700 --> 00:57:40.740 of thinkers, economists, 1002 00:57:41.780 --> 00:57:43.660 to produce plans for Paris, 1003 00:57:43.740 --> 00:57:45.840 which came up with some wonderful ideas and a remarkable 1004 00:57:45.840 --> 00:57:46.740 degree of 1005 00:57:47.300 --> 00:57:49.320 similarity, actually, between a lot of them, 1006 00:57:49.380 --> 00:57:51.840 which is actually beginning, finally, to show some, 1007 00:57:51.880 --> 00:57:54.620 to bear some fruit, particularly in the transport thing, 1008 00:57:54.720 --> 00:57:57.160 which is, again, remarkable, because it tried to make it happen here. 1009 00:57:57.440 --> 00:57:59.040 I can just imagine the chaos. 1010 00:57:59.200 --> 00:58:01.240 But it was a brilliant idea, 1011 00:58:01.340 --> 00:58:03.220 and I think it's working very interestingly. 1012 00:58:04.120 --> 00:58:06.340 Just, and one last comment in terms of 1013 00:58:06.340 --> 00:58:08.860 the ecological model for cities of the future. 1014 00:58:08.940 --> 00:58:10.880 It seems to me that's absolutely fundamental, 1015 00:58:11.500 --> 00:58:14.240 and it's that above all that means that the city 1016 00:58:14.240 --> 00:58:16.720 will continue to function principally, and that's the key. 1017 00:58:16.720 --> 00:58:17.140 I think we could probably could probably could probably 1018 00:58:17.140 --> 00:58:20.480 could probably could probably 1019 00:58:20.480 --> 00:58:23.400 could probably could probably 1020 00:58:30.900 --> 00:58:32.020 could probably 1021 00:58:32.020 --> 00:58:33.340 could probably 1022 00:58:33.340 --> 00:58:33.420 could probably 1023 00:58:33.420 --> 00:58:33.720 could probably 1024 00:58:33.720 --> 00:58:34.120 could probably 1025 00:58:34.120 --> 00:58:34.680 could probably 1026 00:58:34.680 --> 00:58:35.560 could probably 1027 00:58:35.560 --> 00:58:36.080 could probably 1028 00:58:36.080 --> 00:58:36.380 could probably 1029 00:58:36.380 --> 00:58:36.960 could probably 1030 00:58:36.960 --> 00:58:37.260 could 1031 00:58:37.260 --> 00:58:37.300 could 1032 00:58:37.300 --> 00:58:40.920 to design in ways that are so seductive, so entrancing, 1033 00:58:41.100 --> 00:58:45.180 that people cannot resist wanting to be in, 1034 00:58:46.680 --> 00:58:49.420 living in proximity in the middle of these new, 1035 00:58:50.340 --> 00:58:53.480 relatively dense, green, lean cities 1036 00:58:53.480 --> 00:58:55.440 that we hope to build in the future. 1037 00:58:56.220 --> 00:58:57.080 And Stefan? 1038 00:58:58.920 --> 00:59:00.840 Well, maybe just some final word. 1039 00:59:01.060 --> 00:59:02.860 I think we are in a dangerous state 1040 00:59:02.860 --> 00:59:05.780 of ecological overshoot at the moment. 1041 00:59:06.600 --> 00:59:08.260 We have high consumption cities. 1042 00:59:08.460 --> 00:59:13.120 I think a lot of energy is used for transport 1043 00:59:13.120 --> 00:59:15.820 and air conditioning and so on. 1044 00:59:15.900 --> 00:59:18.640 We have to relearn how to make buildings passive design 1045 00:59:18.640 --> 00:59:20.380 without air-conditioned dependencies. 1046 00:59:20.600 --> 00:59:23.740 So it's a big task for everybody involved in that process. 1047 00:59:24.600 --> 00:59:27.320 And maybe just, you know, as an advocate of urban infill, 1048 00:59:28.040 --> 00:59:29.860 to come back to that, what I said earlier, 1049 00:59:29.960 --> 00:59:33.120 and I didn't finish that, some of the biggest gain 1050 00:59:33.120 --> 00:59:35.540 we could immediately have in terms 1051 00:59:35.540 --> 00:59:35.760 of sustainable development, 1052 00:59:35.760 --> 00:59:36.200 and I think that's the key to sustainability, 1053 00:59:36.600 --> 00:59:39.600 is to build buildings that last longer, 1054 00:59:39.740 --> 00:59:42.000 are more durable, longevity and durability. 1055 00:59:42.480 --> 00:59:45.600 For instance, if we would actually produce quality 1056 00:59:46.500 --> 00:59:50.500 that is adaptable in a way we do the plans and the sections, 1057 00:59:50.880 --> 00:59:54.220 the height of the building of the spaces and the plan, 1058 00:59:54.280 --> 00:59:55.840 the column grid and so on is very important, 1059 00:59:56.100 --> 00:59:58.380 that we have buildings that can easily be adapted 1060 00:59:58.380 --> 01:00:01.600 to other different uses as uses changes in 20, 25 years. 1061 01:00:01.740 --> 01:00:05.580 If we would have as a result of that buildings that last 60 years, 1062 01:00:05.580 --> 01:00:07.900 70 instead of 30 years at the moment, 1063 01:00:07.960 --> 01:00:12.180 at the moment it is accepted that we knock them down after 30 years. 1064 01:00:12.240 --> 01:00:12.940 What a waste. 1065 01:00:13.220 --> 01:00:15.640 I mean, this is not a good way to deal with resources. 1066 01:00:15.680 --> 01:00:17.860 So if we would have longevity, durability, 1067 01:00:18.520 --> 01:00:21.220 buildings that would last, let's say, 50, 60, 70 years, 1068 01:00:21.360 --> 01:00:24.420 it is an immediate easy gain that we could have 1069 01:00:24.980 --> 01:00:25.840 in terms of sustainability. 1070 01:00:26.260 --> 01:00:28.080 And then we have to look at the developers, 1071 01:00:28.240 --> 01:00:30.020 the construction companies also, you know, 1072 01:00:30.040 --> 01:00:32.160 and the whole financing models and so on. 1073 01:00:32.320 --> 01:00:35.440 Now to the gentleman who said this is all boring and it's not radical, 1074 01:00:35.440 --> 01:00:37.360 and there's no vision here. 1075 01:00:37.620 --> 01:00:42.200 Maybe just some last comment on that. 1076 01:00:42.400 --> 01:00:44.740 We do not have to reinvent the city, okay. 1077 01:00:44.960 --> 01:00:49.660 Maybe a lot of it is careful steps and drawing in the knowledge 1078 01:00:49.660 --> 01:00:52.940 of the experts that is a multidisciplinary team. 1079 01:00:53.060 --> 01:00:55.460 Everybody comes to the table with something to contribute. 1080 01:00:55.860 --> 01:01:00.540 It is not the radical new totally different idea 1081 01:01:00.540 --> 01:01:01.940 of reinventing the city. 1082 01:01:02.840 --> 01:01:05.100 It sounds maybe boring, but I find for myself, 1083 01:01:05.100 --> 01:01:06.260 it's a very exciting process. 1084 01:01:07.240 --> 01:01:07.880 Thank you. 1085 01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:11.380 Yes, there was a remark about it. 1086 01:01:11.440 --> 01:01:12.380 We need a new economy. 1087 01:01:12.740 --> 01:01:14.300 That is definitely true. 1088 01:01:14.580 --> 01:01:19.180 If we think that, again, a large part of the world is built, 1089 01:01:19.240 --> 01:01:25.040 let's say, illegally, we see now that there is an incredible pressure 1090 01:01:25.040 --> 01:01:28.160 from organizations like the World Bank, but also in Europe 1091 01:01:28.160 --> 01:01:32.700 from the European Union to legalize shantytowns. 1092 01:01:32.760 --> 01:01:34.560 Now this legalization has all come 1093 01:01:34.560 --> 01:01:36.140 up as all kinds of reasons, of course. 1094 01:01:36.220 --> 01:01:38.420 You get a larger control, but of course, 1095 01:01:38.440 --> 01:01:42.420 the main reason is the idea that if you legalize informal 1096 01:01:42.420 --> 01:01:47.040 settlements, suddenly the houses have owners. 1097 01:01:47.420 --> 01:01:51.360 If the houses have legal owners, they can apply for a mortgage, 1098 01:01:51.620 --> 01:01:55.280 and this means that this system of growth 1099 01:01:55.280 --> 01:01:58.100 and actually the building industry is, of course, 1100 01:01:58.180 --> 01:02:03.280 one of the most important engines of our economy as a whole. 1101 01:02:03.380 --> 01:02:04.540 So if we continue to do that, we will be able to do a lot more. 1102 01:02:04.560 --> 01:02:07.260 So if we continue with this system, let's say, 1103 01:02:07.260 --> 01:02:10.640 this demand of growth, because the planning 1104 01:02:10.640 --> 01:02:13.760 of cities is very dependent still on growth. 1105 01:02:14.100 --> 01:02:16.840 It is very difficult to plan a shrinking city. 1106 01:02:17.080 --> 01:02:22.360 It is even difficult to organize tearing it down. 1107 01:02:23.220 --> 01:02:26.720 So we are very depending on growth, and this growth has, 1108 01:02:26.800 --> 01:02:28.860 of course, a lot to do with the fact that you can speculate 1109 01:02:28.860 --> 01:02:31.520 on real estate increasing in value. 1110 01:02:31.780 --> 01:02:34.420 So lately, I've been, as I live 1111 01:02:34.560 --> 01:02:37.120 in Austria these days, we've been studying Vienna 1112 01:02:37.120 --> 01:02:41.000 after the First World War, where the Viennese came up 1113 01:02:41.000 --> 01:02:45.080 with a system designed by the philosopher economist Otto Neurath 1114 01:02:45.080 --> 01:02:48.720 in which basically there would be, the city planning would be 1115 01:02:48.720 --> 01:02:49.520 done without money. 1116 01:02:49.640 --> 01:02:51.480 Also in Vienna, there were many shantytowns. 1117 01:02:51.680 --> 01:02:54.220 Instead of forbidding them, they let them be. 1118 01:02:55.000 --> 01:02:57.580 And basically, they improved the system. 1119 01:02:57.700 --> 01:02:59.700 They analyzed how these houses came into being. 1120 01:02:59.860 --> 01:03:04.540 Vienna built factories that helped the people to, you know, 1121 01:03:04.540 --> 01:03:06.800 to be provided with building materials. 1122 01:03:07.620 --> 01:03:09.760 And at a certain point, also architects 1123 01:03:09.760 --> 01:03:12.900 and planners became involved to build these houses. 1124 01:03:13.180 --> 01:03:17.220 And the interesting idea was that people could obtain a house 1125 01:03:17.220 --> 01:03:20.880 by working 2,000 hours for the city of Vienna. 1126 01:03:21.040 --> 01:03:23.520 So for example, you would work on a street, build a street, 1127 01:03:23.680 --> 01:03:26.500 and then at a certain point, you would get a house. 1128 01:03:26.660 --> 01:03:33.900 I think these kind of systems had lasted in Vienna until about 1925, 1129 01:03:34.540 --> 01:03:36.280 and we see similar systems now in Jakarta. 1130 01:03:36.620 --> 01:03:38.960 I think these systems are incredibly important, 1131 01:03:39.240 --> 01:03:42.820 not just for the part of the world that consists of informal cities, 1132 01:03:42.980 --> 01:03:49.320 but also for the rest of the world, because as long as planning is driven 1133 01:03:49.320 --> 01:03:54.020 by this real estate craziness that we have experienced over the last, 1134 01:03:54.120 --> 01:03:58.160 over which we have experienced the excesses of the last 10, 15 years, 1135 01:03:58.340 --> 01:03:59.700 then this will go on. 1136 01:03:59.880 --> 01:04:03.440 So a new economy, a new economical model, 1137 01:04:04.340 --> 01:04:04.520 a new economic model. 1138 01:04:04.540 --> 01:04:06.780 This is, I think, very important. 1139 01:04:07.060 --> 01:04:07.380 OK. 1140 01:04:07.700 --> 01:04:11.040 So at that point, I'd like to thank our guests, Elizabeth, Bart, and Stefan. 1141 01:04:11.340 --> 01:04:11.820 Thank you.