WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.520 I'm Anne Edwards, I'll be the chair for this session. 2 00:00:02.800 --> 00:00:07.180 I would first like to acknowledge the fact that we are on the land of the Kaurna people 3 00:00:07.180 --> 00:00:12.160 and express our respect for their historical and ongoing relationship to their land. 4 00:00:12.600 --> 00:00:18.420 Now the title of this topic is Dear Leader, the Limits and Possibilities of Leadership. 5 00:00:19.360 --> 00:00:24.080 Leadership of course is a very broad topic and leaders are to be found in many areas 6 00:00:24.080 --> 00:00:26.860 and they come in many different forms. 7 00:00:26.860 --> 00:00:35.480 The common elements of a leader seem to be captured in such notions as exercising power, 8 00:00:36.700 --> 00:00:41.280 providing direction, having the capacity to influence people and events, 9 00:00:42.460 --> 00:00:48.980 showing the way, being ahead, going first, a whole range of phrases, concepts of that kind 10 00:00:48.980 --> 00:00:51.120 but obviously fairly vague. 11 00:00:51.860 --> 00:00:56.840 Now the panel members have been asked to focus on leadership but particularly on political leadership. 12 00:00:56.860 --> 00:01:03.740 And in 2009 it's impossible to imagine having any discussion about political leaders 13 00:01:03.740 --> 00:01:06.960 without drawing on the phenomenon of Barack Obama. 14 00:01:08.180 --> 00:01:12.100 So here's a prime example of a person coming to the position of head of state 15 00:01:12.100 --> 00:01:15.400 through conventional democratic political processes 16 00:01:15.400 --> 00:01:20.100 but who is now not only by Americans but many across the world 17 00:01:20.100 --> 00:01:24.060 vested with a whole array of personal attributes and abilities 18 00:01:24.060 --> 00:01:26.820 that often come close to the superhuman. 19 00:01:27.900 --> 00:01:34.760 He's exceptional also in being perceived very widely in an almost entirely positive light 20 00:01:34.760 --> 00:01:38.540 even by some of his political opponents. 21 00:01:39.220 --> 00:01:46.280 But he's also seen by other political leaders as having the potential to enhance their own standing 22 00:01:46.280 --> 00:01:47.600 by personal contact. 23 00:01:47.960 --> 00:01:55.060 I was amused to see in the reporting on a recent visit that he and his family made to Paris 24 00:01:55.060 --> 00:01:56.840 that President Saad al-Baghdadi, who had been the head of the government at the time, 25 00:01:56.840 --> 00:02:00.740 who has his own ambitions to be a world leader, I think, 26 00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:08.900 was very put out because he'd anticipated some private social events with the Obama family, 27 00:02:09.160 --> 00:02:12.960 which he believed he would then be able to promote to the French people 28 00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:18.400 as evidence of his close personal relationship and presumably enhance his own reputation thereby, 29 00:02:19.400 --> 00:02:25.160 when the Obama family declined his social invitation and went off and did some sightseeing on their own. 30 00:02:26.620 --> 00:02:32.020 But how the relating of this episode, I mean, I haven't seen this reported in any other country 31 00:02:32.020 --> 00:02:33.640 or in any other comparable way. 32 00:02:33.740 --> 00:02:38.000 The reporting of this episode perhaps reveals something about Sarkozy, 33 00:02:38.140 --> 00:02:44.380 but it also tells us something about maybe about how other people view their own political standing 34 00:02:44.380 --> 00:02:47.040 when compared with that of Obama. 35 00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:53.820 Now, by contrast with Obama, we do also have in the world another head of state, 36 00:02:54.860 --> 00:02:55.140 Kim Jong-un. 37 00:02:55.160 --> 00:03:03.340 Kim Jong-il of North Korea, who's also clearly seen by at least some of his subjects as a messiah-type leader. 38 00:03:04.060 --> 00:03:10.000 But clearly for the rest of us, this is a quite different kind of leadership, 39 00:03:10.180 --> 00:03:13.520 and we would not, I imagine, share those views. 40 00:03:13.680 --> 00:03:18.760 So thinking a little bit about famous figures on the global scene 41 00:03:18.760 --> 00:03:23.800 and how they might be perceived by their own populations but also by the rest of the world. 42 00:03:23.800 --> 00:03:29.540 Now, what does some of this tell us about the diversity of circumstances 43 00:03:29.540 --> 00:03:34.360 in which our political leaders come to power and then have to function? 44 00:03:35.020 --> 00:03:40.280 What different kinds of relationships are there between types of leaders 45 00:03:40.280 --> 00:03:44.120 and types of leadership on the one hand, 46 00:03:44.140 --> 00:03:51.100 and the demands and aspirations of the populations from whom they need to gain and retain support? 47 00:03:52.180 --> 00:03:53.780 How is it that some leaders are not able to function? 48 00:03:53.780 --> 00:03:57.680 How is it that some leaders are major change agents and others are not? 49 00:03:58.100 --> 00:04:01.500 Is this a consequence of being a certain kind of leader, 50 00:04:02.180 --> 00:04:04.340 or is this determined by circumstances? 51 00:04:05.220 --> 00:04:08.400 What are the factors that produce great leaders? 52 00:04:08.700 --> 00:04:11.380 What are constraints on leadership? 53 00:04:11.940 --> 00:04:15.300 Do we want great leaders, or do they frighten us? 54 00:04:16.420 --> 00:04:20.320 Are we entering a new phase of global politics, 55 00:04:20.520 --> 00:04:23.220 as Jeff Gallup, for instance, 56 00:04:23.780 --> 00:04:26.080 has suggested in a preceding session today? 57 00:04:26.720 --> 00:04:32.100 But if so, does this mean we're looking for a new kind of political leadership? 58 00:04:32.420 --> 00:04:36.120 Or will a new kind of political leadership emerge, 59 00:04:36.400 --> 00:04:39.060 given a changing set of circumstances? 60 00:04:40.280 --> 00:04:43.960 So, potentially, an infinite number of possible questions, 61 00:04:44.780 --> 00:04:46.700 and as you by now are familiar, 62 00:04:46.960 --> 00:04:51.260 panel members on these discussions in the Adelaide Festival of Ideas 63 00:04:51.260 --> 00:04:53.680 also pursue these topics in their own way. 64 00:04:55.040 --> 00:04:59.600 We have three speakers, Richard Dennis, Jeff Gallup, and Peter Shergold, 65 00:04:59.720 --> 00:05:02.380 who all have significant public profiles 66 00:05:02.380 --> 00:05:05.580 and are active in political and policy spheres. 67 00:05:06.300 --> 00:05:11.020 I'm sure members of the audience will already have met each of them in a previous session, 68 00:05:11.140 --> 00:05:12.860 indeed, it might have been a previous session today, 69 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:14.080 we're working them very hard, 70 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:20.780 and they are all featuring prominently in this 2009 Adelaide Festival of Ideas. 71 00:05:21.700 --> 00:05:23.760 They have detailed biographical notes, 72 00:05:23.760 --> 00:05:27.500 so I won't repeat what you can read there. 73 00:05:28.100 --> 00:05:32.860 Now, each speaker, the usual format, will have 10 to 15 minutes. 74 00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:36.740 I will introduce each by name as they take their turns to speak. 75 00:05:37.100 --> 00:05:40.700 We then have a bit of time for the panel members to talk to each other 76 00:05:40.700 --> 00:05:44.700 about some of the ideas that have emerged in that first part of this session, 77 00:05:44.840 --> 00:05:49.920 and we'll then open the session to questions and comments from our audience. 78 00:05:50.460 --> 00:05:53.740 And I remind you we need to close promptly at 6pm, 79 00:05:53.740 --> 00:05:55.700 there may not be a session coming in after, 80 00:05:55.860 --> 00:06:00.920 but the staff who are here ask that you get up and leave as soon as the session ends, 81 00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:03.800 because they would also like to get away for the evening, it is a Saturday night. 82 00:06:05.880 --> 00:06:07.420 So, turning to the topic, 83 00:06:07.700 --> 00:06:11.800 Dear Leader, the Limits and Possibilities of Leadership. 84 00:06:13.260 --> 00:06:15.520 Now, our first speaker will be Jeff Gallup. 85 00:06:16.320 --> 00:06:22.020 Most relevant to today's subject is the fact that Jeff Gallup has himself been a political leader, 86 00:06:22.240 --> 00:06:23.720 having been the Premier of Western Australia, 87 00:06:23.740 --> 00:06:26.600 from 2001 to 2006. 88 00:06:26.980 --> 00:06:30.320 He now holds a leadership position in the university sector 89 00:06:30.320 --> 00:06:34.800 as Professor and Director of the School of Government in the University of Sydney. 90 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:37.480 So please now welcome Jeff Gallup. 91 00:06:43.740 --> 00:06:45.040 Thank you very much, Anne. 92 00:06:45.740 --> 00:06:49.340 In my contribution this evening I'd like to say a couple of things. 93 00:06:49.440 --> 00:06:53.120 The first is a sort of analytical point about 94 00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:56.220 where leaders fit in our political system at the moment. 95 00:06:56.400 --> 00:07:00.900 And then I'd like to comment on the basic question that we've been asked to address, 96 00:07:01.080 --> 00:07:06.240 and that is what are the limits and what are the possibilities that relate to leadership. 97 00:07:06.940 --> 00:07:11.660 Let me just start with the first point and ask you to reflect upon the fact that 98 00:07:11.660 --> 00:07:13.840 when we think about politics today, 99 00:07:14.760 --> 00:07:19.720 really the struggle between the leaders is absolutely central to the whole process. 100 00:07:20.280 --> 00:07:23.020 In the last election campaign, of course, in Australia, 101 00:07:23.020 --> 00:07:26.600 Rudd versus Howard, Obama versus McCain, 102 00:07:27.280 --> 00:07:30.860 Cameron versus Brown in the UK currently. 103 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:33.800 The focus is very much on the leaders. 104 00:07:34.400 --> 00:07:37.800 And isn't it interesting, if we went back and looked at 105 00:07:37.800 --> 00:07:44.780 a political science analysis of politics 10, well let's say 20 years ago, 106 00:07:45.100 --> 00:07:49.440 there'd be a lot more emphasis placed upon issues related to class, 107 00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:53.000 how the class system operates, how that's relating to the 108 00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:56.640 way people vote and where they finish up with their support, 109 00:07:56.840 --> 00:08:00.160 the political parties and the role that they play. 110 00:08:00.260 --> 00:08:06.140 The political parties now are mere shells compared to what they were 20, 30 years ago 111 00:08:06.140 --> 00:08:09.960 with quite significant memberships playing an important role 112 00:08:09.960 --> 00:08:11.820 in the development of ideas and policy. 113 00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:13.520 And of course, ideology. 114 00:08:14.740 --> 00:08:17.740 One of the points I made in my lecture earlier tonight 115 00:08:17.740 --> 00:08:20.780 was in this era of globalisation from circa 1980 116 00:08:20.780 --> 00:08:22.980 through to circa 2000, 117 00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:25.980 2001, there was almost a pattern of politics. 118 00:08:26.500 --> 00:08:28.880 The difference between the left and the right, 119 00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:32.480 if there was a difference, as there indeed was a difference, 120 00:08:32.640 --> 00:08:36.460 was on social questions rather than on the basic economic questions 121 00:08:36.460 --> 00:08:40.260 about how you run the economy, the role of globalisation, 122 00:08:40.560 --> 00:08:42.860 the role of the market, public sector reform. 123 00:08:43.100 --> 00:08:46.940 There was a consistent agreement between them on those questions. 124 00:08:47.300 --> 00:08:50.080 So ideologies lost its resonance. 125 00:08:50.780 --> 00:08:52.980 That doesn't mean values aren't important. 126 00:08:53.000 --> 00:08:56.680 But comprehensive ideologies have lost their resonance. 127 00:08:57.440 --> 00:09:01.740 Political parties are now support bases for leaders. 128 00:09:02.120 --> 00:09:03.800 What do political parties do? 129 00:09:04.280 --> 00:09:05.300 Most of the time... 130 00:09:05.300 --> 00:09:07.680 Well, in the case of some states, from time to time, 131 00:09:07.700 --> 00:09:09.820 they depose the leaders actually and put other ones in. 132 00:09:09.920 --> 00:09:12.600 But they actually do polling. 133 00:09:12.680 --> 00:09:15.560 They try to find out how the leaders are going. 134 00:09:15.660 --> 00:09:18.000 They put that advice into the parliamentary process. 135 00:09:18.760 --> 00:09:20.060 They support leaders. 136 00:09:20.820 --> 00:09:22.820 They're not playing the role that they used to. 137 00:09:22.820 --> 00:09:27.000 And, of course, class generally is still a factor in our political system. 138 00:09:27.340 --> 00:09:31.440 But its resonance, its power as a force has declined. 139 00:09:32.140 --> 00:09:35.340 So what politics is about now are the leaders. 140 00:09:36.420 --> 00:09:40.800 Some people take the view that leaders have appropriated this power 141 00:09:40.800 --> 00:09:42.560 through a form of coup d'etat. 142 00:09:43.380 --> 00:09:45.220 And you see the literature that's written 143 00:09:45.220 --> 00:09:47.700 on trying to bring accountability back into politics. 144 00:09:47.940 --> 00:09:49.840 And some of the minor parties, of course, 145 00:09:50.500 --> 00:09:52.800 have much more democratic views. 146 00:09:52.820 --> 00:09:54.720 They have democratic processes for electing their leaders 147 00:09:54.720 --> 00:09:56.140 and holding them to account. 148 00:09:56.360 --> 00:09:58.900 But the major parties, really the leaders, 149 00:09:58.960 --> 00:10:00.480 are in a very, very strong position 150 00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:02.780 vis-à-vis their ordinary members, 151 00:10:03.080 --> 00:10:05.720 vis-à-vis the party structures generally. 152 00:10:06.100 --> 00:10:08.240 So we have leaders have emerged 153 00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:12.180 as absolutely central players in the political system. 154 00:10:12.540 --> 00:10:17.940 And the role that they play will determine the way politics works. 155 00:10:18.300 --> 00:10:20.020 Now, I don't want to give the impression 156 00:10:20.820 --> 00:10:22.480 that because that is the case, 157 00:10:22.820 --> 00:10:26.140 that there are no limitations on the power that they have. 158 00:10:26.220 --> 00:10:27.900 And I'll come to that in a minute. 159 00:10:28.300 --> 00:10:30.900 But the view that there's been a coup d'etat 160 00:10:30.900 --> 00:10:33.080 and the political leaders have taken over, I think, 161 00:10:33.100 --> 00:10:36.500 is not an appropriate description of what's happened. 162 00:10:36.640 --> 00:10:38.580 This has been a slow process 163 00:10:38.580 --> 00:10:42.180 in which we've seen most of the political resources 164 00:10:42.180 --> 00:10:45.080 that are needed for politics drift into the leader's office. 165 00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:49.840 The centralisation of power within opposition and government 166 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:52.020 has gone towards the leader's office. 167 00:10:52.020 --> 00:10:54.700 The media now focus on the leader. 168 00:10:54.880 --> 00:10:56.600 No matter what the issue is, 169 00:10:56.680 --> 00:10:59.420 the leader is expected to be able to respond, 170 00:10:59.520 --> 00:11:01.120 even though it may not be in their portfolio. 171 00:11:02.200 --> 00:11:07.300 And most leaders have press conferences on a fairly regular basis, 172 00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:09.480 so they're expected to know everything 173 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:11.400 about what's happening in the system. 174 00:11:11.620 --> 00:11:13.880 So the resources have gone to their office. 175 00:11:14.080 --> 00:11:18.420 The question of media interest, public interest, 176 00:11:18.500 --> 00:11:20.300 focuses in on the leader. 177 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:21.500 And, of course, 178 00:11:21.500 --> 00:11:23.120 most importantly, 179 00:11:23.280 --> 00:11:27.380 the leaders have the authority in the political system. 180 00:11:27.680 --> 00:11:30.120 Have authority in the political system. 181 00:11:30.580 --> 00:11:34.440 Now, this leads me to the important question that we're posing tonight. 182 00:11:34.640 --> 00:11:37.480 What are the limits of leadership on the one side? 183 00:11:37.560 --> 00:11:39.720 What are the possibilities of leadership on the other? 184 00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:42.180 I guess my one conclusion 185 00:11:42.180 --> 00:11:45.640 from being involved in politics for a long period of time 186 00:11:45.640 --> 00:11:47.420 and being a leader for ten years, 187 00:11:47.540 --> 00:11:49.580 five in opposition, five in government, 188 00:11:49.660 --> 00:11:49.940 is, 189 00:11:49.940 --> 00:11:54.400 most leaders underestimate the possibilities 190 00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:57.480 and overestimate the limits. 191 00:11:58.540 --> 00:12:01.300 And it's interesting when you reflect upon 192 00:12:01.300 --> 00:12:04.380 the challenge posed by that dilemma 193 00:12:04.380 --> 00:12:05.760 between limits and possibilities 194 00:12:05.760 --> 00:12:07.620 about where you would line up. 195 00:12:07.800 --> 00:12:08.860 What are the limits? 196 00:12:09.300 --> 00:12:11.100 Well, on the limit side, of course, 197 00:12:11.920 --> 00:12:13.660 even though they've accru... 198 00:12:13.660 --> 00:12:18.220 ..even though there's been a lot of power drift towards a leader's office, 199 00:12:18.460 --> 00:12:19.920 even though they can throw in 200 00:12:19.940 --> 00:12:20.720 and threaten their members, 201 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:23.340 if you don't agree with this policy, well, I'll resign, 202 00:12:23.540 --> 00:12:24.060 you know, the... 203 00:12:24.060 --> 00:12:26.760 ..what we call the Nasser approach to politics. 204 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:32.560 Even though that's the case in our political system, 205 00:12:33.020 --> 00:12:34.740 there still are limits there. 206 00:12:34.920 --> 00:12:37.140 They still have to keep the support of their members. 207 00:12:37.220 --> 00:12:40.440 So a good leader will be constantly in dialogue with their members 208 00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:42.980 to make sure that when they need that tough decision, 209 00:12:43.180 --> 00:12:46.660 when they need to try and convince their members 210 00:12:46.660 --> 00:12:49.120 to go into a new course, that they can do it. 211 00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:50.460 So there are limits there. 212 00:12:50.640 --> 00:12:52.480 There are limits on their power. 213 00:12:52.640 --> 00:12:55.140 And those limits are not unimportant, 214 00:12:55.280 --> 00:12:58.400 as indeed we've found in New South Wales. 215 00:12:58.520 --> 00:13:00.460 The Premier lost his position. 216 00:13:00.500 --> 00:13:01.960 We've seen here in South Australia 217 00:13:01.960 --> 00:13:05.660 the leader of the opposition lose his position. 218 00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:09.100 But with that authority and with those resources 219 00:13:09.100 --> 00:13:10.300 and with the media interest, 220 00:13:10.540 --> 00:13:13.240 there are great possibilities that come with leadership. 221 00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:16.380 And I think the question of politics today is, 222 00:13:16.380 --> 00:13:18.260 how do leaders use that power? 223 00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:21.980 Malcolm Turnbull, how's he using the power that he got 224 00:13:21.980 --> 00:13:24.400 to become leader of the Liberal Party? 225 00:13:24.500 --> 00:13:27.480 Is he using it to try and reshape the Liberal Party? 226 00:13:27.700 --> 00:13:31.940 Or is he using it to try to just keep the members happy 227 00:13:31.940 --> 00:13:34.320 and to be in control of the party, 228 00:13:34.480 --> 00:13:38.060 thereby limiting the options that are available to him? 229 00:13:38.260 --> 00:13:40.060 How has Kevin Rudd used the fact 230 00:13:40.060 --> 00:13:42.500 that he's become leader of the Labor Party, 231 00:13:42.600 --> 00:13:44.760 won the election, is now Prime Minister? 232 00:13:44.980 --> 00:13:46.360 Is he using it to try and change the world? 233 00:13:46.380 --> 00:13:48.840 Is he using it to try and expand the possibilities that are there? 234 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:51.580 Or is he taking a conservative view? 235 00:13:52.520 --> 00:13:53.840 So back to the point, 236 00:13:54.780 --> 00:13:55.900 overestimation of limits, 237 00:13:57.120 --> 00:13:58.200 underestimation of possibilities. 238 00:13:59.240 --> 00:14:00.600 Let's look at some examples. 239 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:03.480 The gun control issue, 240 00:14:03.580 --> 00:14:05.920 and I'm sure Peter was involved in that when he was in government. 241 00:14:06.560 --> 00:14:08.820 The Howard government had a challenge. 242 00:14:09.160 --> 00:14:10.920 A lot of their traditional constituents 243 00:14:11.520 --> 00:14:13.460 would have had a strong view on that question. 244 00:14:13.640 --> 00:14:15.560 It was clear something had to be done. 245 00:14:15.800 --> 00:14:16.360 The government had to be able 246 00:14:16.380 --> 00:14:19.060 to get the support of state governments 247 00:14:19.060 --> 00:14:23.740 and introduced pretty extensive changes on that question. 248 00:14:24.040 --> 00:14:26.600 And it, from time to time, became a heated issue 249 00:14:26.600 --> 00:14:28.440 for the then government. 250 00:14:28.800 --> 00:14:31.140 Take Australia in the 1990s. 251 00:14:31.280 --> 00:14:34.760 There's no way that the Hawke and Keating government 252 00:14:34.760 --> 00:14:37.460 came to power with a comprehensive strategy 253 00:14:37.460 --> 00:14:39.580 to reform our economy. 254 00:14:40.800 --> 00:14:41.940 That really was... 255 00:14:41.940 --> 00:14:45.700 I don't remember that being in the consensus election victory of 1983. 256 00:14:45.700 --> 00:14:49.060 But they guided through the political process 257 00:14:49.060 --> 00:14:51.040 the national competition policy, 258 00:14:51.340 --> 00:14:53.560 which I think most people would agree. 259 00:14:53.780 --> 00:14:57.380 I'm sure my friend Bob Ellis might have a point or two to say about it. 260 00:14:57.580 --> 00:15:00.200 But guided that process through. 261 00:15:00.860 --> 00:15:03.960 And it wasn't really a traditional Labour Party thinking. 262 00:15:04.140 --> 00:15:07.860 It wasn't really what was in the platform at the time, 263 00:15:07.880 --> 00:15:09.400 but they guided that process through. 264 00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:11.580 The possibilities of change were there. 265 00:15:11.760 --> 00:15:15.680 They had a very effective accord with the trade unions at the time. 266 00:15:15.680 --> 00:15:17.800 They had the concept of the social wage 267 00:15:17.800 --> 00:15:20.220 that they could use to make sure 268 00:15:20.220 --> 00:15:24.000 that that could be taken through in a politically acceptable way. 269 00:15:24.420 --> 00:15:26.440 I found in my own state 270 00:15:26.440 --> 00:15:28.280 there were issues related to conservation. 271 00:15:29.500 --> 00:15:31.640 One that I remember only too well. 272 00:15:31.900 --> 00:15:35.460 The Ningaloo Reef and the marine parks surrounding that. 273 00:15:36.040 --> 00:15:38.580 Where the recreational fishers, of course, 274 00:15:38.620 --> 00:15:39.960 were extremely unhappy 275 00:15:40.680 --> 00:15:43.120 with the rigorous environmental standards that we set. 276 00:15:43.280 --> 00:15:45.280 I had a local member of parliament there 277 00:15:45.280 --> 00:15:45.660 ringing me up, 278 00:15:45.680 --> 00:15:46.620 every five minutes, 279 00:15:46.640 --> 00:15:48.180 saying he was going to lose his seat 280 00:15:48.180 --> 00:15:50.200 if we introduced these policies. 281 00:15:50.420 --> 00:15:51.580 We stuck with the policy. 282 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:55.960 He won his seat without any great damage to his vote. 283 00:15:56.100 --> 00:15:59.220 And I think we've got a much better environmental framework 284 00:15:59.220 --> 00:16:00.600 for the Ningaloo Reef. 285 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:02.840 These are difficult questions. 286 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:06.800 Sometimes it may be that the choice to go around, 287 00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:09.120 the choice to broaden the perspective 288 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:11.280 and open up the possibilities for leadership 289 00:16:11.280 --> 00:16:13.900 may lead to a disaster. 290 00:16:13.900 --> 00:16:17.640 But I've found that there are those possibilities there. 291 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:21.240 They are there and they can be used by political leaders. 292 00:16:21.800 --> 00:16:24.540 And speaking earlier today, 293 00:16:24.660 --> 00:16:27.720 I made the point that I think in respect of sustainability, 294 00:16:27.980 --> 00:16:31.020 we need to broaden out our framework of thinking. 295 00:16:31.220 --> 00:16:33.780 In respect of equality as an issue, 296 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:35.180 we need to broaden out our thinking. 297 00:16:35.480 --> 00:16:38.660 Middle class welfare will have to be addressed in Australia. 298 00:16:39.560 --> 00:16:41.920 Leadership will have to be shown on that issue. 299 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:43.880 Because we simply need to be able 300 00:16:43.880 --> 00:16:49.200 to achieve equality of opportunity for our people 301 00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:53.400 unless some resources are shifted into tackling equality. 302 00:16:53.900 --> 00:16:56.320 So I think the possibilities are there 303 00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:59.680 for leaders to go out into new territory, 304 00:16:59.920 --> 00:17:03.720 to win the support of their own team, 305 00:17:03.900 --> 00:17:05.760 to win the support of the electorate. 306 00:17:05.840 --> 00:17:08.040 And even though there are constraints, 307 00:17:08.580 --> 00:17:10.960 those possibilities do exist. 308 00:17:11.320 --> 00:17:13.860 In general terms, too many Australian members 309 00:17:13.860 --> 00:17:15.020 and political leaders, I think, 310 00:17:15.020 --> 00:17:16.960 have underestimated the extent 311 00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:19.360 to which they can use those possibilities, 312 00:17:19.780 --> 00:17:22.640 that authority, those resources that they have, 313 00:17:22.740 --> 00:17:24.540 the interest that people have in them 314 00:17:24.540 --> 00:17:26.880 to engineer change in our community. 315 00:17:27.980 --> 00:17:30.260 Obama, President Obama, I think, 316 00:17:30.260 --> 00:17:33.980 has been very good at getting a very clear message 317 00:17:33.980 --> 00:17:35.000 across to the people. 318 00:17:35.180 --> 00:17:36.400 He's come into power. 319 00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:39.920 I think it's a bit early to assess yet 320 00:17:40.860 --> 00:17:42.640 his role as a political leader, 321 00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:45.280 because he's only been in power for a short period of time. 322 00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:47.540 The leaders that I often reflect upon, 323 00:17:47.820 --> 00:17:50.080 John Curtin, I think, was a great leader 324 00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:53.080 who stood very, very firmly 325 00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:55.200 on a number of important principles 326 00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:58.600 despite the pressures that were on him at the time 327 00:17:58.600 --> 00:18:01.200 to join a national government, for example, 328 00:18:01.400 --> 00:18:04.020 and guided Australia in the Second World War. 329 00:18:04.180 --> 00:18:06.620 Gough Whitlam was an incredible sort of leader, 330 00:18:06.680 --> 00:18:09.680 the crash-through or crash approach to leadership. 331 00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:12.520 Inevitably, he was going to be 332 00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:13.460 a short-term leader, 333 00:18:13.580 --> 00:18:15.480 but he did have a vision for the country. 334 00:18:16.080 --> 00:18:17.820 Don Dunstan, I think, represented 335 00:18:17.820 --> 00:18:19.660 very effective political leadership 336 00:18:19.660 --> 00:18:21.660 where he explored new territory 337 00:18:21.660 --> 00:18:23.200 but took the people with him. 338 00:18:23.500 --> 00:18:27.660 So I think leadership is of the essence of politics today. 339 00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:30.040 The possibilities are there. 340 00:18:30.560 --> 00:18:32.060 The limits can be managed, 341 00:18:32.220 --> 00:18:34.800 and I think we can have a creative dialogue tonight 342 00:18:34.800 --> 00:18:36.660 about some of the areas where perhaps 343 00:18:36.660 --> 00:18:38.440 we might exercise some of those possibilities. 344 00:18:38.620 --> 00:18:39.220 Thank you. 345 00:18:43.380 --> 00:18:44.280 Thank you, Geoff. 346 00:18:44.980 --> 00:18:48.060 So our next contributor from the three-member panel 347 00:18:48.060 --> 00:18:49.040 is Richard Dennis. 348 00:18:49.640 --> 00:18:52.840 Richard has also had direct experience of politics 349 00:18:52.840 --> 00:18:55.760 from within the system in such roles as adviser 350 00:18:55.760 --> 00:18:58.440 and chief of staff to leaders of the Democrats and the Greens 351 00:18:58.440 --> 00:19:00.720 and has worked within the university sector. 352 00:19:01.240 --> 00:19:03.120 He's currently the executive director 353 00:19:03.120 --> 00:19:05.900 of the Australia Institute, a public policy think tank. 354 00:19:06.120 --> 00:19:07.580 Please welcome Richard Dennis. 355 00:19:13.640 --> 00:19:16.480 Thank you, and thank you all for coming out. 356 00:19:17.040 --> 00:19:20.240 Look, I just want to start by taking off 357 00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:22.700 on a point that Geoff brought up, 358 00:19:22.780 --> 00:19:25.680 and that is, you know, 359 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:28.260 do leaders focus on the limits to leadership 360 00:19:28.260 --> 00:19:32.500 or do they focus on what's possible? 361 00:19:32.820 --> 00:19:37.480 And what occurred to me was that you never see politicians 362 00:19:38.740 --> 00:19:42.420 when they're resigning with tears in their eyes 363 00:19:42.420 --> 00:19:42.620 and a sense of responsibility. 364 00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:42.920 They're saying, 365 00:19:43.640 --> 00:19:45.200 I tried too hard. 366 00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:49.480 I tried to do too much. 367 00:19:50.180 --> 00:19:52.120 I got too much done. 368 00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:55.120 My time here is over. 369 00:19:55.180 --> 00:19:56.480 It could have been easier. 370 00:19:58.180 --> 00:20:01.200 We usually hear them, rightly, I think, 371 00:20:01.280 --> 00:20:03.900 because while politicians are often derided, 372 00:20:04.020 --> 00:20:07.880 they are some of the hardest working people in the country. 373 00:20:08.620 --> 00:20:11.220 They usually reflect on the cost 374 00:20:11.220 --> 00:20:12.860 that often their families have paid, 375 00:20:13.080 --> 00:20:14.820 the time away from them, 376 00:20:15.320 --> 00:20:17.980 and I don't begrudge them that for a minute. 377 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:20.300 But they often reflect on, 378 00:20:20.380 --> 00:20:22.060 oh, if only I had have done this, 379 00:20:22.080 --> 00:20:23.720 and if only I had have done that. 380 00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:26.480 Now, I think, you know, to be fair, 381 00:20:26.580 --> 00:20:31.500 that's an entirely reasonable thing for anyone to do, 382 00:20:31.560 --> 00:20:33.640 to reflect on what else could have happened. 383 00:20:33.820 --> 00:20:35.580 But if we're going to talk about leadership 384 00:20:35.580 --> 00:20:40.560 and if we want to both train up new leaders 385 00:20:40.560 --> 00:20:42.420 and encourage our existing ones, 386 00:20:42.560 --> 00:20:46.940 I think Jeff's point is a very important one 387 00:20:46.940 --> 00:20:49.180 because both to the leaders of today 388 00:20:49.180 --> 00:20:50.580 and the leaders of tomorrow, 389 00:20:50.780 --> 00:20:54.180 what lesson can we learn from the leaders of the past? 390 00:20:54.460 --> 00:20:56.500 That, yes, if they have one regret, 391 00:20:56.680 --> 00:20:59.300 it's that they worried too much about the limits, 392 00:20:59.520 --> 00:21:02.300 that they perhaps weren't ambitious enough, 393 00:21:02.540 --> 00:21:04.640 that they weren't optimistic enough 394 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:06.300 about what could be achieved. 395 00:21:06.820 --> 00:21:09.900 But again, it's easy to blame individuals 396 00:21:09.900 --> 00:21:12.520 and say, well, they should try harder. 397 00:21:12.900 --> 00:21:17.380 We, as the people who are led, 398 00:21:17.580 --> 00:21:20.640 you know, it's a democracy, we elect our leaders, 399 00:21:20.840 --> 00:21:25.160 we have to take some responsibility for this timidity. 400 00:21:25.340 --> 00:21:28.420 What is it about us, their voters, 401 00:21:28.580 --> 00:21:31.940