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<v Robyn McDermott>Welcome everybody. This is our final session in the afternoon. I just ask you to turn off

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<v Robyn McDermott>your mobile phones if they're not already done. My name's Robin McDermott. I work at the University

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<v Robyn McDermott>of South Australia and I'll be chairing the session this afternoon. I just want to briefly

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<v Robyn McDermott>introduce our three speakers, although some of you have probably heard them over the last two days.

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<v Robyn McDermott>Our first speaker is Nairi Brown, who's one of our first Indigenous medical graduates in Australia.

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<v Robyn McDermott>She's worked almost all over the country now, including as president of the Australian

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<v Robyn McDermott>Association for Indigenous Doctors, as deputy director of the Menzies School of Health Research

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<v Robyn McDermott>in Darwin, and now she is co-director of the Posh Centre for Indigenous Health at the University of

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<v Robyn McDermott>Sydney.

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<v Robyn McDermott>Nairi gave us a bit of a stirring encouragement this afternoon. Each of the speakers will talk

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<v Robyn McDermott>for about 10 minutes and then we'll have a conversation and we'll invite you to join in.

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<v Robyn McDermott>There's a microphone in the middle and there is another one up the back.

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<v Robyn McDermott>Next will be Fran Bowne, who is currently the

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<v Robyn McDermott>Associate Professor of Health Sciences at the University of Sydney. She's a professor of

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<v Robyn McDermott>ARC Federation Fellow at Flinders University and Foundation Director of the South Australian

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<v Robyn McDermott>Community Health Research Unit. Fran was a member of the WHO Commissioner for Social

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<v Robyn McDermott>Determinants of Health and she's currently chairing the People's Health Movement.

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<v Robyn McDermott>Fran's best known nationally and internationally probably for her famous textbook on public health,

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<v Robyn McDermott>which is available for

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<v Robyn McDermott>sale and signing up in the tent.

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<v Robyn McDermott>And last, Fred Cheney, who's a bit of, well, a big legend now. He's been both a member of the House

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<v Robyn McDermott>of Representatives and a Senator up until 1993. He's worked in academia. He's been Chancellor of

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<v Robyn McDermott>Murdoch University. He's been a Minister for Aboriginal Affairs and Social Security. And

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<v Robyn McDermott>really, I guess, all of that time he's been a champion of the health and social care sector.

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<v Robyn McDermott>And he's been a great advocate for Aboriginal affairs and particularly over the last few years as

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<v Robyn McDermott>chairing the Reconciliation Council. I'll ask Nairi to take it away for us and then we'll have Fran.

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<v Robyn McDermott>Thanks, Nairi.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Again, as is required of

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<v Ngiare Brown>me, I'd like to begin by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which we gather.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Without whose sacrifice and generosity we wouldn't be here, conduct ourselves and live our lives.

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<v Ngiare Brown>I bring respects from my mob. They're from the south coast of New South Wales, so the Dharawal and Yuin peoples.

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<v Ngiare Brown>To each of you, to the elders and to the communities. I'm Nairi Brown. I'm from the south coast of New South Wales.

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<v Ngiare Brown>As you've heard, I'm a doctor by trade, but I've also been able to goof off in a number of roles around research, policy and medical education.

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<v Ngiare Brown>I'm currently the director of Boolana, the Poach Centre for Indigenous Health, a newly established centre at the University of Sydney, but I'll get to that in a few moments.

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<v Ngiare Brown>As our session title suggests, we're asked to consider and make comment on whether the gap is closing for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander disparity.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Our effervescent chair has asked more specifically that rather than dwelling on some of the more negative or stereotypical issues,

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<v Ngiare Brown>around disadvantage and disparity, that we maybe comment on some of the positive initiatives that we are engaged with to actually address the reduction or elimination of disparities.

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<v Ngiare Brown>I can do that, but first I'll just reveal a little secret. I'm going to refer to the phrase we used to use pre-close the gap terminology,

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<v Ngiare Brown>as this seems to have been osmosed into the general lexicon already, which is not necessarily a bad thing,

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<v Ngiare Brown>but this seems to be a very important one.

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<v Ngiare Brown>I'll just say a little confusion about the interchangeability of the Australian Human Rights Commission's Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Health Equality Within a Generation initiative,

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<v Ngiare Brown>which is known publicly as Close the Gap. The COAG agenda, which is known as Closing the Gap.

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<v Ngiare Brown>There's the love child of the WHO's Social Determinants Commission, so their report on Closing the Gap and Health Equality Within a Generation.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And Fran is a proud parent of that particular document.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And I've even seen a print advertisement for Venetian Lines that has the caption, Close the Gap.

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<v Ngiare Brown>So I remain faithful to the language of health equality and the elimination of disparities.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And so I'll just chat very briefly, because as has been mentioned, we're far more interested in conversing and a discussion amongst ourselves and with you

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<v Ngiare Brown>about a couple of initiatives that have been developed to contribute to eliminating health and social justice disparities for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And whilst most of us would be well aware of the health disparities, and many of us would be involved in addressing these disparities through our work and our social interactions,

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<v Ngiare Brown>there are still other gaps that need to be addressed.

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<v Ngiare Brown>So gaps between evidence, policy and practice.

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<v Ngiare Brown>A gap between the interface of primary, secondary and tertiary service provision.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Gaps between the sectors that are responsible for health, mental health and social justice.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Education, employment and social services.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Because we all know that health will not be resolved specifically by the health sector alone.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And a gap between the political rhetoric and the actual investment, implementation and delivery of services and improved outcomes.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Where we still seem to fund dependent upon political and financial cycles that are by their very nature short term and motivated by the power of kudos.

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<v Ngiare Brown>So one of the points that I want to make is that I think it's important to understand that there are a number of factors that are involved in this.

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<v Ngiare Brown>One of the positives I have had the great fortune and privilege to be involved with and continue to be involved with is the Human Rights Commission Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Health Equality Within a Generation initiative.

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<v Ngiare Brown>It's a mouthful, therefore we call it Close the Gap.

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<v Ngiare Brown>With the staunch and unfailing leadership of Tom Calmer, he's the social justice commissioner, peak Indigenous health organisations have been convened.

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<v Ngiare Brown>So you have the Australian Indigenous Doctors Association.

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<v Ngiare Brown>The National Aboriginal Community Control Commission.

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<v Ngiare Brown>The National Aboriginal Health Organization.

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<v Ngiare Brown>The Congress of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Nurses.

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<v Ngiare Brown>The Aboriginal Dentists Association.

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<v Ngiare Brown>The newly formed Australian Indigenous Psychologists Association.

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<v Ngiare Brown>As well as academic and research institutions and leading advocates in Aboriginal health from around the country.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And our task was to progress the recommendations made in the 2005 social justice report.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Which focused on a human rights based approach to Indigenous health equality within a generation.

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<v Ngiare Brown>This report proposed the development of a framework to address the disparities.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And acknowledged the requirement for specific and time bound targets, timelines, benchmarks and mechanisms for accountability.

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<v Ngiare Brown>The steering committee drove further work on the development of health equality targets.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Which focused on primary care.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Infrastructure, which was inclusive of health workforce.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And health issue targets.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Specific say to child health and vascular risk and chronic disease.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Now the health targets were developed by a subcommittee of practitioners and policy makers.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And were based on best clinical evidence.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And designed to deliver the greatest impact on health outcomes within the given time frames.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Which was every three to five years through to 2030.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And we actually have the evidence and the expertise to achieve many of these outcomes.

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<v Ngiare Brown>The health targets address perinatal outcomes, childhood infections, vascular risk and chronic disease.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Other health behaviours and risk factors.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And youth suicide.

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<v Ngiare Brown>The committee is progressing further work on partnerships.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And targets for social and cultural determinants of health.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Now the cultural determinants of health are particularly important I feel for Indigenous peoples.

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<v Ngiare Brown>So we're aware of the social determinants.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And I'm sure that Fran who is the expert here on those particular issues.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Such as control, employment, income and education.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Housing for example.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Will speak more on these.

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<v Ngiare Brown>But if we look at the cultural determinants.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Cultural determinants of health.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Such as land.

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<v Ngiare Brown>So access and utilisation of traditional lands.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Language.

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<v Ngiare Brown>It's preservation and practice within communities.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Issues of identity.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And cultural preservation and the ability to pursue and continue our traditional practice.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Are important in terms of how we maintain our cultural integrity.

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<v Ngiare Brown>How we contribute to our resilience.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And therefore promote our survival.

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<v Ngiare Brown>To date.

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<v Ngiare Brown>The health equality team have been able to influence government interactions and commitments.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And so we have the Prime Minister.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Other ministers.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Signing off on a statement of intent.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Which articulated their national commitment to eliminating disparities in health and social justice outcomes.

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<v Ngiare Brown>The COAG agenda on Indigenous reform is informed by the work of the steering committee.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And its members in their other roles.

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<v Ngiare Brown>We continue to engage with ministers and departments.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Including Treasury.

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<v Ngiare Brown>On the implementation.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And progress of a human rights.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And equality based approach to Indigenous policy.

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<v Ngiare Brown>The other initiative.

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<v Ngiare Brown>I'd just like to touch on very briefly.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Is BALANA.

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<v Ngiare Brown>So where I'm currently lurking.

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<v Ngiare Brown>It's a newly established centre.

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<v Ngiare Brown>As a result of a philanthropic donation.

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<v Ngiare Brown>So the beauty of that is that we have some sense of independence and autonomy.

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<v Ngiare Brown>We are committed to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander equality.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And contributing to the elimination of disparities in health and social justice outcomes.

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<v Ngiare Brown>So that's part of our core business.

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<v Ngiare Brown>We promote Aboriginal leadership.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And support collaborative efforts in health.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Such that we can influence policy.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Promote systems reform.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And improve health and wellbeing.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And we pursue the aims and objectives.

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<v Ngiare Brown>In the context of a human rights and community development based approach.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Our core business.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Which makes us a little different from other centres around the country.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Is that we are clinically orientated around say service delivery.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Access to services.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Education and research.

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<v Ngiare Brown>So under our clinical services banner.

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<v Ngiare Brown>We're actually facilitating medical, nursing and midwifery.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Dental and allied health outreach.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And we're responding to community identified priorities.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And gaps.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And particular needs in terms of specialist and allied health provision.

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<v Ngiare Brown>We're also developing models of sustainable service delivery.

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<v Ngiare Brown>We're using regional approaches to comprehensive and integrated care.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Across primary, secondary and tertiary services.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And we're able to mobilize.

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<v Ngiare Brown>The expertise of the university.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Of major teaching and tertiary centres.

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<v Ngiare Brown>In metropolitan areas.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Private practitioners.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And actually mobilize them to support regional centres.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Thereby freeing up existing providers.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Or actually allowing those centres to then undertake their core business.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Which is providing comprehensive care to local mob.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And allowing them to do some of their own outreach activities.

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<v Ngiare Brown>So using this sort of hub and spoke approach.

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<v Ngiare Brown>We're taking a larger sector.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And we're using our local centres.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And their expertise.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And our resources.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Supporting the centre of that approach.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Which is the regional centres.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And the local practitioners.

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<v Ngiare Brown>The Aboriginal health services for example.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And we expect ongoing commitment.

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<v Ngiare Brown>This isn't actually about medical tourism.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Where people will pop out.

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<v Ngiare Brown>See an Aboriginal community.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Poke around a bit.

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<v Ngiare Brown>See a couple of patients.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And then say that they have essential expertise.

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<v Ngiare Brown>In what it means to deliver Aboriginal health in a community context.

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<v Ngiare Brown>We're working on capacity development.

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<v Ngiare Brown>So supporting health students.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Including providing something as simple as space for them.

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<v Ngiare Brown>To actually conduct their work.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And complete their studies.

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<v Ngiare Brown>As well as scholarships and bursaries.

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<v Ngiare Brown>We're also providing some financial support for them.

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<v Ngiare Brown>To be able to.

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<v Ngiare Brown>I'm sorry.

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<v Ngiare Brown>I think you're waving or being rude.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Which would be far more likely.

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<v Ngiare Brown>For them to undertake some of their clinical placements.

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<v Ngiare Brown>In Aboriginal services and communities.

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<v Ngiare Brown>We're also developing some cultural competence programs.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Such that we can ensure.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Not ensure.

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<v Ngiare Brown>But we are more likely to be able to ensure.

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<v Ngiare Brown>That our practitioners and our students are culturally competent.

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<v Ngiare Brown>As well as clinically competent.

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<v Ngiare Brown>The fun bit that we're undertaking is the pathways work.

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<v Ngiare Brown>So we're working with community based foundations.

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<v Ngiare Brown>To support Aboriginal students into university.

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<v Ngiare Brown>But also into and across health careers.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And we're working with community foundations.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Education initiatives.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Mentoring programs.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And we're working with.

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<v Ngiare Brown>The health of the world.

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<v Ngiare Brown>To promote opportunities.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And to actually raise expectations.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And aspirations for Aboriginal kids.

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<v Ngiare Brown>But also for mature age students.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Of course research is an essential part of that.

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<v Ngiare Brown>So monitoring and evaluating our own work.

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<v Ngiare Brown>To make sure that we're doing it the right way.

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<v Ngiare Brown>But also to support communities.

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<v Ngiare Brown>To develop that evidence base.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Which then means they can use it.

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<v Ngiare Brown>To leverage greater resources.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And to get their core work done.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And we have some international partnerships.

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<v Ngiare Brown>For the promotion of the health of the world's indigenous peoples.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Because we have not only a responsibility.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Domestically.

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<v Ngiare Brown>But also regionally.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And internationally.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And before she sticks her fingers up at me again.

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<v Ngiare Brown>I'd just like to finish by making a couple of points.

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<v Ngiare Brown>On what I feel are some important principles.

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<v Ngiare Brown>I believe the secret of successful initiatives.

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<v Ngiare Brown>To eliminate disparities.

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<v Ngiare Brown>In health.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Or in education.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Or in any other aspect.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Is Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander leadership.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And an acknowledgement that we not only understand the problems.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And the issues.

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<v Ngiare Brown>But we have ideas and wisdom enough to know ways forward.

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<v Ngiare Brown>If we own the issues.

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<v Ngiare Brown>We can also own the solutions.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And the successes.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And I'd also like to say that we should stop using culture.

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<v Ngiare Brown>As a screen.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Or an excuse for action.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Or inaction.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Too few people actually understand the meaning or significance.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander culture.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Our culture is our strength.

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<v Ngiare Brown>It does not excuse harmful or illegal behaviours.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And anyone who tells you that it is accepted cultural behaviour.

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<v Ngiare Brown>To beat each other to death.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Or to rape our children.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Is a liar.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Or worse.

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<v Ngiare Brown>But we should not use discriminatory policy.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And punitive interventions.

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<v Ngiare Brown>To punish all for the sins of a few.

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<v Ngiare Brown>We need to move to a respectful.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Inclusive.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Strength based approach.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Consistent with the principles and practices of human rights.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Community development.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And social justice.

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<v Ngiare Brown>So thank you for your time.

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<v Ngiare Brown>Happy NAIDOC week.

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<v Ngiare Brown>And manmak.

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<v Robyn McDermott>Thanks everyone.

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<v Fran Baum>Thanks everyone.

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<v Fran Baum>Thanks everyone.

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<v Fran Baum>Thanks everyone.

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<v Fran Baum>Thanks everyone.

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<v Fran Baum>Thanks everyone.

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<v Fran Baum>Thanks everyone.

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<v Fran Baum>Thanks everyone.

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<v Fran Baum>Thanks everyone.

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<v Fran Baum>Thanks everyone.

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<v Fran Baum>Thanks everyone.

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<v Fran Baum>Thanks everyone.

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<v Fran Baum>Thanks everyone.

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<v Fran Baum>and present. I'm going to talk about three things. First of all, I'm just going to remind us of some

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<v Fran Baum>of the data on indigenous health. Then I want to focus on the importance of looking at the

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<v Fran Baum>conditions of everyday life and underlying power issues that I think drive the big gap in life

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<v Fran Baum>expectancy. And finally, I want to think about what lessons we can learn from the Northern

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<v Fran Baum>Territory intervention and think a little bit about the link between racism and health.

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<v Fran Baum>Now, in the past 30 years, Aboriginal health has improved. Sometimes when you see some of

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<v Fran Baum>the literature, you'd think that it hasn't. I mean, infant mortality particularly has improved.

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<v Fran Baum>But it's not improved at the same rate as non-indigenous people's health. One of the

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<v Fran Baum>terrible things is we don't even have very good data on indigenous health. There's only really

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<v Fran Baum>reliable data from the Northern Territory, South Australia and Western Australia. The other

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<v Fran Baum>states have very good data on indigenous health. And so, I'm going to talk a little bit about

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<v Fran Baum>that. In the United States, it's not that reliable. And people argue, most people agree the gap is 17

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<v Fran Baum>years, but some people, a group at the University of Queensland are now saying it's 13 years.

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<v Fran Baum>Whatever one of those figures we use, it's pretty large. There are also differences within

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<v Fran Baum>Australia. So, in the Northern Territory, infant mortality rate is 23 babies die per thousand.

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<v Fran Baum>In South Australia, that's only 8.4, so quite a difference. What's really striking,

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<v Fran Baum>for me, when I was just reminding myself of some of the information for this paper,

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<v Fran Baum>is when we look at particular groups. So, if you look, for instance, for women aged 35 to 44,

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<v Fran Baum>now I would imagine that might be... I still fall within that by a long way. Thank you very much.

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<v Fran Baum>Yes, thank you. The difference then, the rate at which indigenous women die in that group compared

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<v Fran Baum>to the rest of us is six times higher. So, much of the indigenous higher mortality is happening in

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<v Fran Baum>the Middle East. So, it's not that we're not doing it right. It's that we're not doing it right.

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<v Fran Baum>It's not that we're not doing it right. It's that we're not doing it right. It's not that we're not

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<v Fran Baum>It's not... The difference is less great amongst babies, still a huge worry, still a great concern.

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<v Fran Baum>But when you think about a six-fold difference, that's when people are in key roles and in the

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<v Fran Baum>prime time of their life and crucial to their communities. They're dying. And, of course,

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<v Fran Baum>it's also not just about dying early. It's about living in a way that is much less healthy. So,

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<v Fran Baum>if we look at diabetes prevalence, indigenous people, once they're over about 35, have a

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<v Fran Baum>prevalence that's about 5.5. So, if we look at the number of people who die early, it's about 5.5.

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<v Fran Baum>So, if we look at the number of people who die early, it's about 5.5. So, if we look at the number

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<v Fran Baum>times that of non-indigenous Australians. If we look at end-stage renal disease, then in outer

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<v Fran Baum>regional areas, it's 18 times more likely. And if we look at data on people who experience a

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<v Fran Baum>stressor in their life in the previous 12 months, which the Australian Bureau of Statistics collects,

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<v Fran Baum>then Aboriginal people are one and a half times more likely to experience that.

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<v Fran Baum>They're also much more likely as non-indigenous adults to have been

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<v Fran Baum>affected by the disease. So, if we look at the number of people who die early, it's about 5.5.

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<v Fran Baum>They're also much more likely to have been affected by alcohol or drug-related problems

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<v Fran Baum>or abuse or violent crime, and were twice as likely to report the death of a family member.

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<v Fran Baum>So, sorry business is very much part of the lives, and those of us who have Aboriginal

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<v Fran Baum>colleagues will see that lived out. Now, in my role as a commissioner on this

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<v Fran Baum>WHO commission, which Nai mentioned, which published the report Closing a Gap in a

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<v Fran Baum>Generation, that was referring to the gaps internationally, we organized a symposium

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<v Fran Baum>in Adelaide in 2006, and 83 indigenous people from around the world came to join those discussions

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<v Fran Baum>in Adelaide. And what that did was highlight that most social determinants are common and

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<v Fran Baum>relevant to all people. That's whether, you know, we all know to be healthy, we have to have good

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<v Fran Baum>housing, good employment, satisfying employment, education helps, and having good social support.

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<v Fran Baum>But there are some issues that are particular, the indigenous people told us, to their health.

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<v Fran Baum>And that was very much about control of land, decision making about the style of life,

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<v Fran Baum>and the importance of culture. And Niza already talked about that. And one of the things I thought

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<v Fran Baum>about then was that in Australia, as white people who invaded the land, we've created a perfect

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<v Fran Baum>storm for ill health in the last 220 years. We've imported disease for which indigenous people had

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<v Fran Baum>no immunity. We've ensured a terrible record on everyday life social determinants.

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<v Fran Baum>We've created a terrible record on everyday life social determinants. We've robbed people of the

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<v Fran Baum>link of their land and their culture, and we've suggested the culture is somehow inferior.

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<v Fran Baum>And finally, just in the last few decades, we stole children. So if we'd wanted to create a

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<v Fran Baum>situation in which people lack power and control, we did it fantastically in Australia. And the

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<v Fran Baum>amazing thing is how much Aboriginal people have managed to survive through that, I think,

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<v Fran Baum>rather than the fact that there's a gap in health status.

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<v Fran Baum>The evidence on control and health is growing, and it comes from many forms. There's been some

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<v Fran Baum>studies, believe it or not, of Whitehall public servants, and none of those are poor. But if we

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<v Fran Baum>look at their health, those who don't have much control at work die earlier than those who have

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<v Fran Baum>control at work. And of course, the amount of control you have usually depends on your grade

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<v Fran Baum>in the public service. More relevant for our topic today, there's been a study in British Columbia

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<v Fran Baum>that has shown that those communities who have control over their health, they don't have to

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<v Fran Baum>have a lot of control. They have to have a lot of control. And so what we've done is we've

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<v Fran Baum>looked at the number of communities that have cultural continuity, that's self-government,

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<v Fran Baum>retained their language, control their land and so on, have much lower suicide rates. So this

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<v Fran Baum>issue of control isn't just a nice thing. It actually gets under people's skin and causes

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<v Fran Baum>death. And this has lots of implications, I think, for indigenous health. It implies that we should

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<v Fran Baum>be doing much more than just dealing with... Often what we see in health is the tip of the

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<v Fran Baum>iceberg. We see the behavior of people. We see people drink too much, smoke too much, drink too

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<v Fran Baum>much, work too much. And it's very easy to jump to a conclusion. We have to do something about that.

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<v Fran Baum>But that isn't going to work. We need to go below the iceberg and say there's all these other

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<v Fran Baum>problems. There's a history of 220 years of bad blood. There's a history of taking land away.

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<v Fran Baum>There's a history of robbing of culture and dealing with those. Then on that, I think, if you

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<v Fran Baum>think about the Northern Territory intervention, it started with a report from one of the very

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<v Fran Baum>great indigenous leaders, Pat Anderson, who wrote the report with Rex Wilde, who was a QC.

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<v Fran Baum>They said in that report, and I think it's worth reading their words again,

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<v Fran Baum>our appointment in terms of reference arose out of allegations of sexual abuse of Aboriginal

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<v Fran Baum>children. Everything we have learned since convinces us that these are just symptoms of

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<v Fran Baum>a breakdown of Aboriginal culture and society. And you might wonder why that happened. There is,

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<v Fran Baum>in our view, little point in an exercise of...

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<v Fran Baum>That's the tip of the iceberg.

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<v Fran Baum>What is required is a determined, coordinated effort to break the cycle and provide the

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<v Fran Baum>necessary strength, power, and appropriate support and services to local communities

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<v Fran Baum>so they can lead themselves out of the malaise. In a word, empowerment.

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<v Fran Baum>So I think Pat Anderson and Rex Wilde really were thinking about that literature on control

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<v Fran Baum>and empower and its link to health. But what was the intervention?

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<v Fran Baum>We sent the police and the army into remote communities. Was that empowering?

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<v Fran Baum>We banned alcohol. That may have an argument. We wound back Aboriginal land rights under the

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<v Fran Baum>Northern Territory land rights legislation. We had compulsory health checks for Aboriginal

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<v Fran Baum>children. We quarantined welfare payments. And in March 2009, to the amazement of many people,

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<v Fran Baum>the Rudd-Labor government...

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<v Fran Baum>I'm sorry.

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<v Fran Baum>The Rudd-Labor government announced it would continue that intervention.

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<v Fran Baum>Now, a Senate Select Committee on Remote Aboriginal Health has been looking at this and has been

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<v Fran Baum>told very clearly that that intervention has led to increased racism. One of the people

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<v Fran Baum>who gave evidence, Betty Carter from the Tea Tree community, told the hearing how unfair

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<v Fran Baum>it was that pensioners like herself, with no dependents and a 30-year work history,

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<v Fran Baum>had half of their money quarantined. Irene Fisher in Crikey in May this year said, quote,

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<v Fran Baum>and Irene is the CEO of a very successful Aboriginal health service in Catherine,

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<v Fran Baum>income management shames those who live under it

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<v Fran Baum>and takes us back to the days of the mission.

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<v Fran Baum>It sets Aboriginal people apart from their fellow Australians.

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<v Fran Baum>So that links very clearly to racism.

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<v Fran Baum>Some research we've recently done at Flinders

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<v Fran Baum>has shown that 84% of the Aboriginal people we spoke to

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<v Fran Baum>experienced racism in institutional settings,

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<v Fran Baum>at least sometimes and often, very often,

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<v Fran Baum>and also in formal settings at a similar level.

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<v Fran Baum>The sort of quotes they said was,

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<v Fran Baum>you could be the only person on the back of the bus

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<v Fran Baum>and no one will sit with you if you're Nunga.

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<v Fran Baum>Everyone else will stand up around you.

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<v Fran Baum>You get called Black Mongrel when you're walking along.

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<v Fran Baum>So I think racism is a massive task of those of us

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<v Fran Baum>who unwittingly or wittingly contribute to that racism.

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<v Fran Baum>And we need to find a way of overcoming that

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<v Fran Baum>and that responsibility.

394
00:24:52.500 --> 00:24:54.060
<v Fran Baum>It's for non-Indigenous Australians

395
00:24:54.060 --> 00:24:56.680
<v Fran Baum>not to be put on Indigenous Australians.

396
00:24:57.480 --> 00:25:00.620
<v Fran Baum>So finally, and in sum, if we want to close the gap,

397
00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:03.460
<v Fran Baum>it's not just going to be about the provision of services

398
00:25:03.460 --> 00:25:06.260
<v Fran Baum>or getting people directly to change their behaviour.

399
00:25:06.920 --> 00:25:09.700
<v Fran Baum>It's much more about the conditions of everyday life

400
00:25:09.700 --> 00:25:12.500
<v Fran Baum>in terms of food, housing, education, jobs.

401
00:25:12.700 --> 00:25:15.340
<v Fran Baum>And it's about the relationships between Australians,

402
00:25:15.760 --> 00:25:18.820
<v Fran Baum>black or white, and the degree of respect and trust.

403
00:25:19.280 --> 00:25:21.520
<v Fran Baum>It's about how much control people have,

404
00:25:21.520 --> 00:25:25.620
<v Fran Baum>what meaningful relationships they have that don't blame people.

405
00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:29.300
<v Fran Baum>And I think the really good news is that we can close the gap.

406
00:25:29.500 --> 00:25:33.880
<v Fran Baum>And in 25 years, I truly hope that the Adelaide Festival of Ideas

407
00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:37.400
<v Fran Baum>is concerned with looking at how we managed to close that gap,

408
00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:39.780
<v Fran Baum>what lessons we learnt in the progress,

409
00:25:40.140 --> 00:25:45.180
<v Fran Baum>and how that process made Australia a much better place for all of us,

410
00:25:45.280 --> 00:25:47.900
<v Fran Baum>regardless of our colour, creed, race or class.

411
00:25:48.140 --> 00:25:49.840
<v Fran Baum>But it certainly is achievable.

412
00:25:50.020 --> 00:25:50.780
<v Fran Baum>Thank you.

413
00:25:50.900 --> 00:25:51.320
<v Robyn McDermott>Thank you.

414
00:25:51.520 --> 00:25:51.600
<v Robyn McDermott>Thank you.

415
00:25:56.620 --> 00:25:57.740
<v Fred Chaney>Good afternoon.

416
00:25:59.260 --> 00:26:02.540
<v Fred Chaney>I just found that last remark of Fran's quite challenging

417
00:26:02.540 --> 00:26:06.200
<v Fred Chaney>because I'm trying to add 25 to 68

418
00:26:06.200 --> 00:26:09.800
<v Fred Chaney>to see if I can stagger back here for the celebrations.

419
00:26:10.540 --> 00:26:12.520
<v Fred Chaney>I hope that is the case, Fran.

420
00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:14.460
<v Fred Chaney>I would join you in that hope.

421
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:16.920
<v Fred Chaney>Can I also acknowledge the Kaurna people

422
00:26:17.520 --> 00:26:20.500
<v Fred Chaney>and acknowledge all of the Aboriginal people

423
00:26:20.500 --> 00:26:21.500
<v Fred Chaney>who, over the last few years,

424
00:26:21.520 --> 00:26:22.080
<v Fred Chaney>over the last 50 years,

425
00:26:22.220 --> 00:26:24.920
<v Fred Chaney>have been kind enough and generous enough

426
00:26:24.920 --> 00:26:26.920
<v Fred Chaney>to offer me advice, guidance,

427
00:26:27.220 --> 00:26:29.060
<v Fred Chaney>and at times tell me off.

428
00:26:30.500 --> 00:26:32.620
<v Fred Chaney>The question about is the health gap closing,

429
00:26:32.900 --> 00:26:35.380
<v Fred Chaney>I haven't come with a statistical analysis.

430
00:26:35.600 --> 00:26:37.220
<v Fred Chaney>I think the recent reports indicate

431
00:26:37.220 --> 00:26:41.520
<v Fred Chaney>that progress is way behind what we had hoped and expected.

432
00:26:42.460 --> 00:26:46.120
<v Fred Chaney>And I'd say expected because I think there were some promising signs

433
00:26:46.120 --> 00:26:47.900
<v Fred Chaney>of increased activity and so on,

434
00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:51.160
<v Fred Chaney>but the present news is not particularly...

435
00:26:51.520 --> 00:26:51.960
<v Fred Chaney>cheerful.

436
00:26:52.140 --> 00:26:54.980
<v Fred Chaney>The stats tell a pretty sorry story.

437
00:26:55.760 --> 00:26:57.660
<v Fred Chaney>And so the reality is we've got to do better.

438
00:26:58.180 --> 00:27:02.680
<v Fred Chaney>And the only value in discussions like this is if it's part

439
00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:05.260
<v Fred Chaney>of a process of enabling us to do better.

440
00:27:07.060 --> 00:27:10.420
<v Fred Chaney>My contribution to opening the conversation is to suggest

441
00:27:10.420 --> 00:27:13.840
<v Fred Chaney>that if we are to do better, we've got to be very clear

442
00:27:13.840 --> 00:27:14.920
<v Fred Chaney>in what we're talking about.

443
00:27:15.760 --> 00:27:18.280
<v Fred Chaney>And we've got to try to avoid muddying the water.

444
00:27:18.980 --> 00:27:21.500
<v Fred Chaney>And I have felt that sometimes, even at this point,

445
00:27:21.500 --> 00:27:24.900
<v Fred Chaney>this festival of ideas, some key issues have been a bit muddy.

446
00:27:26.180 --> 00:27:28.240
<v Fred Chaney>There have been some wonderful discussions on health,

447
00:27:28.340 --> 00:27:30.760
<v Fred Chaney>but people have been talking about two quite different things.

448
00:27:31.940 --> 00:27:35.660
<v Fred Chaney>Some people have been talking about the treatment of illness.

449
00:27:37.600 --> 00:27:40.520
<v Fred Chaney>And others have been talking about the promotion

450
00:27:41.080 --> 00:27:42.360
<v Fred Chaney>and creation of health.

451
00:27:43.480 --> 00:27:45.100
<v Fred Chaney>And they're both really important.

452
00:27:45.280 --> 00:27:46.200
<v Fred Chaney>And of course they interact.

453
00:27:46.860 --> 00:27:49.200
<v Fred Chaney>But I think it's actually quite important to understand

454
00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:51.480
<v Fred Chaney>that the provision of high-quality water,

455
00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:53.280
<v Fred Chaney>high-class, high-quality, acceptable,

456
00:27:53.520 --> 00:27:59.500
<v Fred Chaney>culturally appropriate services to treat people who are sick.

457
00:28:00.220 --> 00:28:02.760
<v Fred Chaney>For example, the many Aboriginal friends I have

458
00:28:02.760 --> 00:28:04.860
<v Fred Chaney>who've been subject to kidney failure.

459
00:28:05.640 --> 00:28:07.880
<v Fred Chaney>And if they're to survive, they need dialysis.

460
00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:10.160
<v Fred Chaney>It's pretty straightforward actually.

461
00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:12.880
<v Fred Chaney>It may not be straightforward getting it to them if they live

462
00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:14.680
<v Fred Chaney>in very remote parts of Australia.

463
00:28:14.980 --> 00:28:17.360
<v Fred Chaney>But it's a straightforward thing that we must do.

464
00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:21.140
<v Fred Chaney>But the more complex questions relate

465
00:28:21.140 --> 00:28:27.280
<v Fred Chaney>to how do you stop this epidemic of things that Fran and Nairi know all about.

466
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:34.480
<v Fred Chaney>This epidemic of heart disease and, you know, diabetes and all

467
00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:36.500
<v Fred Chaney>of these things which are carrying people off.

468
00:28:38.360 --> 00:28:41.280
<v Fred Chaney>So I want to make the first point that there is a difference

469
00:28:41.280 --> 00:28:43.280
<v Fred Chaney>between treating illness and keeping people healthy,

470
00:28:43.400 --> 00:28:44.700
<v Fred Chaney>although of course there's an overlap.

471
00:28:46.380 --> 00:28:50.200
<v Fred Chaney>And that we must promote high-quality,

472
00:28:50.220 --> 00:28:51.120
<v Fred Chaney>sick care.

473
00:28:51.120 --> 00:28:52.200
<v Fred Chaney>Sickness treating services.

474
00:28:53.660 --> 00:28:58.060
<v Fred Chaney>And we must acknowledge that among Aboriginal people there's a strong desire

475
00:28:58.060 --> 00:29:00.100
<v Fred Chaney>that they be if not community controlled,

476
00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:03.600
<v Fred Chaney>that there's a very powerful community input.

477
00:29:05.940 --> 00:29:09.520
<v Fred Chaney>I'm really attracted to the issues that Fran has been working

478
00:29:09.520 --> 00:29:11.020
<v Fred Chaney>on both nationally and internationally.

479
00:29:12.740 --> 00:29:18.260
<v Fred Chaney>It seems to me pretty irrefutable now that the social gradient of health is real.

480
00:29:19.540 --> 00:29:21.100
<v Fred Chaney>And that if you want to promote health,

481
00:29:21.100 --> 00:29:25.060
<v Fred Chaney>whether it's among Aboriginal people or any other group of people,

482
00:29:25.760 --> 00:29:28.800
<v Fred Chaney>you actually have to deal with issues relating to inequality.

483
00:29:30.520 --> 00:29:34.980
<v Fred Chaney>There are a whole lot of other things, the provision of housing and clean water and so on.

484
00:29:35.020 --> 00:29:38.380
<v Fred Chaney>All of those things which I think everyone here would understand.

485
00:29:40.320 --> 00:29:43.540
<v Fred Chaney>But I think we have to understand that there's a complex of things that contribute

486
00:29:43.540 --> 00:29:46.280
<v Fred Chaney>to dealing with the social gradient of health.

487
00:29:46.380 --> 00:29:51.040
<v Fred Chaney>For example, Fran tossed off as one of her remarks, and we all toss off remarks, you know,

488
00:29:51.100 --> 00:29:54.740
<v Fred Chaney>a brief moment we get with an audience like this,

489
00:29:54.820 --> 00:29:58.120
<v Fred Chaney>an open discussion about the importance of land.

490
00:29:59.820 --> 00:30:03.020
<v Fred Chaney>Well, more than 30 years ago, the Aboriginal people I was dealing

491
00:30:03.020 --> 00:30:05.560
<v Fred Chaney>with told me, yes, it's true we're sick.

492
00:30:05.620 --> 00:30:07.680
<v Fred Chaney>It's true we're drunk.

493
00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:09.200
<v Fred Chaney>It's true we're violent.

494
00:30:09.340 --> 00:30:10.620
<v Fred Chaney>It's true we're going to jail.

495
00:30:11.280 --> 00:30:14.480
<v Fred Chaney>Give us back our land and we will deal with all this.

496
00:30:16.100 --> 00:30:20.920
<v Fred Chaney>And I'd have to say I put in quite a lot of my life responding to that point

497
00:30:21.100 --> 00:30:27.140
<v Fred Chaney>of view, and in 1976 we passed land rights legislation in the Northern Territory,

498
00:30:27.260 --> 00:30:32.460
<v Fred Chaney>and here in just not long after that you did that here in South Australia.

499
00:30:34.320 --> 00:30:37.220
<v Fred Chaney>There's land rights legislation of one sort or another in most states,

500
00:30:37.280 --> 00:30:40.600
<v Fred Chaney>not my state of Western Australia, but then Native Title came along,

501
00:30:41.340 --> 00:30:47.100
<v Fred Chaney>and I put in 12 years of my life and 500 square, 500,000 square, sorry,

502
00:30:48.520 --> 00:30:50.080
<v Fred Chaney>half a million square kilometres.

503
00:30:51.100 --> 00:30:53.400
<v Fred Chaney>In Western Australia under high order Native Title.

504
00:30:54.560 --> 00:30:58.860
<v Fred Chaney>Some of those communities have had secure title to land since the 1970s.

505
00:31:00.940 --> 00:31:03.640
<v Fred Chaney>And I'm afraid the predictions have not been true.

506
00:31:04.860 --> 00:31:09.000
<v Fred Chaney>I still believe that secure tenure is absolutely vital.

507
00:31:09.260 --> 00:31:10.300
<v Fred Chaney>It is a part of the mix.

508
00:31:11.040 --> 00:31:14.220
<v Fred Chaney>But one of the things we've learned is that it's only part of the mix.

509
00:31:15.060 --> 00:31:17.280
<v Fred Chaney>There's a whole lot of other things which are essential.

510
00:31:18.660 --> 00:31:21.080
<v Fred Chaney>In my view, the most important thing is that we have to be able

511
00:31:21.820 --> 00:31:22.300
<v Fred Chaney>to do what we have failed to do for the last 30 years,

512
00:31:22.300 --> 00:31:24.900
<v Fred Chaney>and this is a totally amateur view.

513
00:31:25.960 --> 00:31:30.020
<v Fred Chaney>But I think that the single thing that will do the most to change the gap is

514
00:31:30.020 --> 00:31:34.300
<v Fred Chaney>if we could actually do what we have failed to do for the last 30 years,

515
00:31:34.380 --> 00:31:39.400
<v Fred Chaney>which is to really provide an adequate education for many Aboriginal people.

516
00:31:40.780 --> 00:31:45.360
<v Fred Chaney>And I put a view that you might think heretical, but I think that if we are

517
00:31:45.360 --> 00:31:48.560
<v Fred Chaney>to close the gap Aboriginal people will in fact have to be bicultural.

518
00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:51.060
<v Fred Chaney>They will, I think, be able to do what we have failed to do.

519
00:31:51.060 --> 00:31:54.360
<v Fred Chaney>I hope maintain their own culture, but they need to be confident in ours

520
00:31:54.360 --> 00:31:58.900
<v Fred Chaney>because everywhere I go I see Aboriginal people engaging with our culture,

521
00:31:59.020 --> 00:32:03.300
<v Fred Chaney>adopting many aspects of it, and wanting a future in it.

522
00:32:04.380 --> 00:32:06.420
<v Fred Chaney>There are many old Aboriginal people.

523
00:32:07.860 --> 00:32:13.460
<v Fred Chaney>Given my age, of course, most of the people I've known well, and who are my friends, are old.

524
00:32:15.260 --> 00:32:20.780
<v Fred Chaney>The terrible thing is that they say, and I quote exactly, our kids are no good.

525
00:32:22.180 --> 00:32:28.340
<v Fred Chaney>These old people had a better connection to the majority society than their children have.

526
00:32:29.820 --> 00:32:32.440
<v Fred Chaney>And they are confident in dealing with us.

527
00:32:33.040 --> 00:32:35.200
<v Fred Chaney>And I think that's really important.

528
00:32:35.400 --> 00:32:41.880
<v Fred Chaney>And I think development studies would suggest that the education of women, in particular,

529
00:32:43.060 --> 00:32:46.520
<v Fred Chaney>has a massive impact on health outcomes for families.

530
00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:49.520
<v Fred Chaney>The social gradient of health,

531
00:32:49.640 --> 00:32:51.040
<v Fred Chaney>and this is the social gradient of health,

532
00:32:51.040 --> 00:32:51.980
<v Fred Chaney>the second point I want to make,

533
00:32:52.740 --> 00:32:57.360
<v Fred Chaney>I've been going now for years to lectures on the social gradient of health.

534
00:32:57.500 --> 00:32:59.300
<v Fred Chaney>I was lucky enough to hear Sir Michael Marmot,

535
00:32:59.980 --> 00:33:06.920
<v Fred Chaney>the distinguished Australian professor, who did the work that Fran mentioned on public servants.

536
00:33:07.060 --> 00:33:10.500
<v Fred Chaney>It seems to be the sort of foundational work on which this is based,

537
00:33:10.620 --> 00:33:11.820
<v Fred Chaney>which I think is really sound.

538
00:33:11.940 --> 00:33:13.060
<v Fred Chaney>I find it really convincing.

539
00:33:14.380 --> 00:33:19.340
<v Fred Chaney>But I keep going to meetings of health professionals, and occasionally health economists.

540
00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:21.020
<v Fred Chaney>And, you know, it's like, you know,

541
00:33:21.020 --> 00:33:24.680
<v Fred Chaney>it's like the civil liberties meetings I go to and the refugee meetings I go to.

542
00:33:24.740 --> 00:33:26.820
<v Fred Chaney>It's the same group of people talking to each other.

543
00:33:28.040 --> 00:33:33.920
<v Fred Chaney>And what I don't hear is in the politics of Australia any acknowledgement

544
00:33:35.140 --> 00:33:37.660
<v Fred Chaney>that the social gradient of health is relevant.

545
00:33:38.940 --> 00:33:42.400
<v Fred Chaney>We have huge debates about health policy in this country.

546
00:33:43.040 --> 00:33:46.660
<v Fred Chaney>Huge. You know, the Prime Minister says,

547
00:33:46.760 --> 00:33:50.140
<v Fred Chaney>if hospitals are not working by June, we will take them over.

548
00:33:50.260 --> 00:33:51.000
<v Fred Chaney>You know, that's not true.

549
00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:51.840
<v Fred Chaney>That's sort of stuff, you know.

550
00:33:52.620 --> 00:33:56.240
<v Fred Chaney>And I think we've got a very good Minister for Health in Nicola Roxon.

551
00:33:56.560 --> 00:34:00.240
<v Fred Chaney>But I'm not hearing from anywhere in the political spectrum,

552
00:34:01.260 --> 00:34:05.560
<v Fred Chaney>I'm certainly not hearing it from the left, that perhaps the issue

553
00:34:05.560 --> 00:34:08.380
<v Fred Chaney>of equality is the fundamental issue we need to address.

554
00:34:09.620 --> 00:34:13.420
<v Fred Chaney>Where is this reflected in the current political debates in Australia?

555
00:34:13.480 --> 00:34:19.500
<v Fred Chaney>So my view would be that we've got to actually get this out of the ghetto and into the public domain

556
00:34:19.500 --> 00:34:20.900
<v Fred Chaney>and start making it.

557
00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:22.380
<v Fred Chaney>And that's part of the political life of this country.

558
00:34:22.460 --> 00:34:28.180
<v Fred Chaney>If we really want politicians to pay attention to the social gradient of health

559
00:34:28.180 --> 00:34:31.560
<v Fred Chaney>as perhaps the fundamental way that we're going to deal with not just Aboriginal health,

560
00:34:31.620 --> 00:34:34.240
<v Fred Chaney>but other health, let's do something about it.

561
00:34:35.720 --> 00:34:38.560
<v Fred Chaney>The third point I want to mention is the point of some sensitivity.

562
00:34:40.160 --> 00:34:44.580
<v Fred Chaney>I think respect for Aboriginal culture is central to any success I've seen in education

563
00:34:45.460 --> 00:34:50.980
<v Fred Chaney>or employment, and because I'm less directly familiar with health matters,

564
00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:53.480
<v Fred Chaney>I've never been involved in a medical service, for example.

565
00:34:54.900 --> 00:34:59.420
<v Fred Chaney>But I'm prepared to hazard a guess that it's the cultural respect that you get

566
00:34:59.420 --> 00:35:04.800
<v Fred Chaney>in a community-based health service that enables it to be effective.

567
00:35:06.920 --> 00:35:08.740
<v Fred Chaney>But it's a bit more complicated than that.

568
00:35:12.100 --> 00:35:18.380
<v Fred Chaney>I was very lucky to spend time with Peter Sutton out of Arrokoon more than 30 years ago.

569
00:35:19.180 --> 00:35:20.980
<v Fred Chaney>It was one of those wonderful experiences.

570
00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:24.000
<v Fred Chaney>I've had a lot of great exposures to very traditional Aboriginal people on their terms.

571
00:35:25.080 --> 00:35:28.660
<v Fred Chaney>And I will never forget my time with the Arrokoon mob.

572
00:35:30.080 --> 00:35:33.880
<v Fred Chaney>Peter Sutton's just written a book about this whole issue of culture,

573
00:35:34.540 --> 00:35:37.980
<v Fred Chaney>which is called The Politics of Suffering, Indigenous Australia

574
00:35:37.980 --> 00:35:40.100
<v Fred Chaney>and the End of the Liberal Consensus.

575
00:35:40.220 --> 00:35:43.500
<v Fred Chaney>And it's reviewed in the Weekend Australian out yesterday.

576
00:35:44.680 --> 00:35:48.120
<v Fred Chaney>Peter gave a lecture about this a few years ago.

577
00:35:50.020 --> 00:35:50.980
<v Fred Chaney>Aboriginal culture is a very important part of our society.

578
00:35:50.980 --> 00:35:54.160
<v Fred Chaney>And our culture is at times a real difficulty in this field.

579
00:35:56.340 --> 00:35:59.900
<v Fred Chaney>Our culture has to adjust, and so does Aboriginal culture,

580
00:36:00.620 --> 00:36:03.400
<v Fred Chaney>to all of the changing realities of modern life.

581
00:36:04.500 --> 00:36:06.780
<v Fred Chaney>And I think we need a far more honest discussion,

582
00:36:07.040 --> 00:36:10.620
<v Fred Chaney>including, of course, within the Aboriginal community, about this.

583
00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:17.740
<v Fred Chaney>I have spent much of my life being respectful to Aboriginal people and their culture,

584
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:19.880
<v Fred Chaney>and I will die, I hope.

585
00:36:20.980 --> 00:36:21.740
<v Fred Chaney>Being like that.

586
00:36:23.040 --> 00:36:26.260
<v Fred Chaney>But I do think that the culture is a complication,

587
00:36:26.360 --> 00:36:30.340
<v Fred Chaney>and I invite a more honest and deep discussion

588
00:36:31.480 --> 00:36:35.120
<v Fred Chaney>on the implications of culture for health.

589
00:36:37.040 --> 00:36:39.840
<v Fred Chaney>And then there's a fourth point that I want to make,

590
00:36:39.900 --> 00:36:41.720
<v Fred Chaney>and this is difficult.

591
00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:43.120
<v Fred Chaney>As a white liberal,

592
00:36:45.380 --> 00:36:48.320
<v Fred Chaney>I suppose at times I have held back about being critical,

593
00:36:48.460 --> 00:36:50.820
<v Fred Chaney>for example, about sexual and social violence.

594
00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:54.320
<v Fred Chaney>That is, I've held back publicly, but not privately,

595
00:36:55.460 --> 00:36:56.820
<v Fred Chaney>within the Aboriginal community,

596
00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:59.760
<v Fred Chaney>because it always seems you're blaming the victim.

597
00:37:02.680 --> 00:37:06.880
<v Fred Chaney>The truth is that Aboriginal people themselves, as Nairi is,

598
00:37:07.400 --> 00:37:09.480
<v Fred Chaney>have to show the leadership in these matters,

599
00:37:09.540 --> 00:37:13.000
<v Fred Chaney>as Sue Gordon, a distinguished Aboriginal from Western Australia,

600
00:37:13.040 --> 00:37:16.420
<v Fred Chaney>did in the inquiry she did on sexual and social violence in Western Australia.

601
00:37:16.900 --> 00:37:19.480
<v Fred Chaney>A very powerful report, and I invite you to read it,

602
00:37:19.480 --> 00:37:20.880
<v Fred Chaney>and look at page 427,

603
00:37:21.480 --> 00:37:23.160
<v Fred Chaney>at what she says is the answer,

604
00:37:23.360 --> 00:37:25.660
<v Fred Chaney>because it's an answer that reflects my own view

605
00:37:25.660 --> 00:37:27.020
<v Fred Chaney>about what works and what doesn't.

606
00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:30.080
<v Fred Chaney>But the particular point I want to make is this.

607
00:37:30.140 --> 00:37:34.480
<v Fred Chaney>I have some really dear friends in the Aboriginal community in their 50s.

608
00:37:35.620 --> 00:37:39.840
<v Fred Chaney>Two of them who are really terrific people and distinguished leaders,

609
00:37:41.560 --> 00:37:44.140
<v Fred Chaney>and these are people I'm quite close to.

610
00:37:44.200 --> 00:37:47.700
<v Fred Chaney>The bloke, for example, who is only 10, 15 years younger than me,

611
00:37:47.740 --> 00:37:48.360
<v Fred Chaney>calls me uncle,

612
00:37:48.360 --> 00:37:51.240
<v Fred Chaney>which I regard as a great compliment and sign of friendship.

613
00:37:52.660 --> 00:37:56.720
<v Fred Chaney>The two people I'm thinking of I've watched address Aboriginal audiences

614
00:37:56.720 --> 00:37:59.540
<v Fred Chaney>of predominantly young people, and they've said something like this,

615
00:37:59.780 --> 00:38:03.300
<v Fred Chaney>I'm in my 50s, statistically I'm going to die.

616
00:38:08.540 --> 00:38:11.180
<v Fred Chaney>Now, in the case of the bloke I'm talking about,

617
00:38:11.240 --> 00:38:12.220
<v Fred Chaney>his parents are still alive.

618
00:38:13.420 --> 00:38:14.620
<v Fred Chaney>They're in their 70s.

619
00:38:16.100 --> 00:38:17.700
<v Fred Chaney>And I said to him, I've had this conversation,

620
00:38:18.360 --> 00:38:22.760
<v Fred Chaney>and I said, Jim, what message are you sending to those young people?

621
00:38:24.640 --> 00:38:26.340
<v Fred Chaney>You know, in Western Australia, the Noongars,

622
00:38:28.500 --> 00:38:31.140
<v Fred Chaney>a wonderful group of people, a huge group of people,

623
00:38:31.260 --> 00:38:32.740
<v Fred Chaney>but they have an out-of-control element.

624
00:38:33.620 --> 00:38:36.340
<v Fred Chaney>And some of the most distinguished people I know from that group

625
00:38:36.340 --> 00:38:39.880
<v Fred Chaney>have died after a history of drug abuse.

626
00:38:41.320 --> 00:38:45.180
<v Fred Chaney>People are killed in various ways, effectively by their own hand,

627
00:38:45.200 --> 00:38:48.100
<v Fred Chaney>and I know there are explanations linking this to the past.

628
00:38:48.360 --> 00:38:50.120
<v Fred Chaney>And to the social gradient of health.

629
00:38:52.020 --> 00:38:55.420
<v Fred Chaney>But surely the message is a despairing one.

630
00:38:56.140 --> 00:38:58.880
<v Fred Chaney>And there are a lot of young Aboriginal people who suicide.

631
00:39:00.660 --> 00:39:03.860
<v Fred Chaney>Well, if you're thinking about whether I'll stick something up my arm,

632
00:39:04.880 --> 00:39:06.180
<v Fred Chaney>or have another drink,

633
00:39:07.620 --> 00:39:09.740
<v Fred Chaney>it's pretty awful if you think, well, I'm going to die anyway.

634
00:39:11.660 --> 00:39:13.440
<v Fred Chaney>But it's actually not like that, is it?

635
00:39:13.480 --> 00:39:15.940
<v Fred Chaney>I mean, to some extent,

636
00:39:17.500 --> 00:39:20.660
<v Fred Chaney>this will be determined by how Aboriginal people feel about themselves

637
00:39:20.660 --> 00:39:21.740
<v Fred Chaney>and about their future.

638
00:39:21.860 --> 00:39:25.080
<v Fred Chaney>And so I just want to say, and I've said this to the people concerned,

639
00:39:25.240 --> 00:39:27.480
<v Fred Chaney>that I think it's really important that Aboriginal people say,

640
00:39:28.120 --> 00:39:28.740
<v Fred Chaney>bugger this.

641
00:39:30.980 --> 00:39:31.520
<v Fred Chaney>Bugger it.

642
00:39:33.120 --> 00:39:34.680
<v Fred Chaney>We don't want to die at 50.

643
00:39:35.660 --> 00:39:36.540
<v Fred Chaney>Or 55.

644
00:39:38.820 --> 00:39:40.980
<v Fred Chaney>And we should do everything we can to stop it.

645
00:39:42.940 --> 00:39:45.060
<v Fred Chaney>The young Aboriginal people I work with predominantly,

646
00:39:45.940 --> 00:39:46.300
<v Fred Chaney>smoke.

647
00:39:47.120 --> 00:39:49.100
<v Fred Chaney>I mean, I nearly weep.

648
00:39:51.940 --> 00:39:52.480
<v Fred Chaney>Many are overweight.

649
00:39:52.660 --> 00:39:53.800
<v Fred Chaney>Many don't exercise.

650
00:39:55.000 --> 00:39:57.560
<v Fred Chaney>There are things within the community itself that,

651
00:39:58.300 --> 00:40:01.600
<v Fred Chaney>lessons that need to, I think, be coming from them.

652
00:40:03.660 --> 00:40:05.720
<v Fred Chaney>I've said sorry a thousand times.

653
00:40:06.520 --> 00:40:09.700
<v Fred Chaney>I accept my responsibility for the failures of the past.

654
00:40:09.820 --> 00:40:11.720
<v Fred Chaney>I was minister for two years 30 years ago.

655
00:40:13.200 --> 00:40:14.160
<v Fred Chaney>I accept

656
00:40:14.160 --> 00:40:19.700
<v Fred Chaney>that we dispossessed, dislocated and condemned people

657
00:40:21.520 --> 00:40:23.800
<v Fred Chaney>to all of the things that Fran has mentioned.

658
00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:29.460
<v Fred Chaney>I accept that in Canada it's been shown that the eight times

659
00:40:29.460 --> 00:40:33.480
<v Fred Chaney>the normal suicide rate of Aboriginal communities masks the fact

660
00:40:33.480 --> 00:40:35.360
<v Fred Chaney>that in some communities there is no suicide.

661
00:40:36.300 --> 00:40:38.600
<v Fred Chaney>And I think in some there's 80 times the suicide.

662
00:40:38.700 --> 00:40:40.500
<v Fred Chaney>And the difference is the cultural integrity

663
00:40:41.300 --> 00:40:43.160
<v Fred Chaney>and the strength of the cultural institutions.

664
00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:46.560
<v Fred Chaney>So I don't want to muddy the messages either.

665
00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:50.360
<v Fred Chaney>What I'm saying though is that I think there are issues

666
00:40:50.360 --> 00:40:52.900
<v Fred Chaney>that we don't sufficiently at times tease out,

667
00:40:53.940 --> 00:40:56.120
<v Fred Chaney>that we're not sufficiently frank about,

668
00:40:57.400 --> 00:41:01.800
<v Fred Chaney>and that which are issues that we actually need Aboriginal participation

669
00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:03.540
<v Fred Chaney>in a very frank debate as well.

670
00:41:05.080 --> 00:41:06.480
<v Fred Chaney>In the end I wish they'd say,

671
00:41:06.600 --> 00:41:09.580
<v Fred Chaney>why don't you all bugger off and leave us to fix this?

672
00:41:09.960 --> 00:41:12.720
<v Fred Chaney>Because I think in the end, as Charlie Perkins said,

673
00:41:13.340 --> 00:41:14.140
<v Fred Chaney>that's really the point.

674
00:41:14.140 --> 00:41:14.760
<v Fred Chaney>It's really the way it's got to be.

675
00:41:15.100 --> 00:41:17.920
<v Fred Chaney>And that's why I support Aboriginal self-determination,

676
00:41:18.180 --> 00:41:21.600
<v Fred Chaney>Aboriginal control, and I pray for a national voice

677
00:41:21.600 --> 00:41:23.260
<v Fred Chaney>and I pray for Aboriginal leadership.

678
00:41:24.020 --> 00:41:24.720
<v Robyn McDermott>Thank you.

679
00:41:30.540 --> 00:41:39.600
<v Robyn McDermott>Well, before we open it up, I'd like to just put a few

680
00:41:39.600 --> 00:41:41.600
<v Robyn McDermott>of these things back into the circle.

681
00:41:41.940 --> 00:41:43.960
<v Robyn McDermott>And Ngaire, I'm sorry, but you're going to be last.

682
00:41:44.140 --> 00:41:48.200
<v Robyn McDermott>I just want to take up with Fran.

683
00:41:48.300 --> 00:41:52.660
<v Robyn McDermott>I think I heard you say that changing health behaviours won't work.

684
00:41:53.640 --> 00:41:57.160
<v Robyn McDermott>I worry in this whole debate, and I, like Fred,

685
00:41:57.320 --> 00:42:02.760
<v Robyn McDermott>I feel like I've been in this and listening to it for far too long

686
00:42:02.760 --> 00:42:06.320
<v Robyn McDermott>without any resolution of fundamental things.

687
00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:11.500
<v Robyn McDermott>We swing from hand-wringing to dogmatic assertion,

688
00:42:11.500 --> 00:42:14.040
<v Robyn McDermott>and somewhere in the middle there is a body of evidence

689
00:42:14.040 --> 00:42:16.880
<v Robyn McDermott>that we can use that I don't think we are using effectively.

690
00:42:17.340 --> 00:42:20.540
<v Robyn McDermott>And the truth is that changing health behaviours do work.

691
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:23.080
<v Robyn McDermott>We've got evidence in the Northern Territory

692
00:42:23.080 --> 00:42:29.720
<v Robyn McDermott>where there's been community-led control on alcohol supply,

693
00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:34.040
<v Robyn McDermott>and we've got more recent, very dramatic evidence

694
00:42:34.040 --> 00:42:35.840
<v Robyn McDermott>in the Kimberley of the same thing,

695
00:42:35.980 --> 00:42:38.120
<v Robyn McDermott>where people have stopped smoking.

696
00:42:38.240 --> 00:42:39.700
<v Robyn McDermott>That's dramatic too.

697
00:42:39.820 --> 00:42:43.060
<v Robyn McDermott>We have never in the history of the world, I think,

698
00:42:43.060 --> 00:42:44.020
<v Robyn McDermott>apart from some places,

699
00:42:44.040 --> 00:42:47.340
<v Robyn McDermott>in China, seen such huge smoking rates,

700
00:42:47.560 --> 00:42:48.780
<v Robyn McDermott>including in the leadership.

701
00:42:49.300 --> 00:42:52.440
<v Robyn McDermott>And I want to get back to you about that, Nairi, too.

702
00:42:53.580 --> 00:42:58.520
<v Robyn McDermott>So, Fran, do you really mean that changing health behaviours won't work?

703
00:42:58.740 --> 00:43:00.320
<v Fran Baum>That's not what I said, of course.

704
00:43:00.540 --> 00:43:04.360
<v Fran Baum>What I said was, I think, approaches that directly target

705
00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:06.320
<v Fran Baum>changing behaviour won't work.

706
00:43:06.440 --> 00:43:08.660
<v Fran Baum>As you said, it's to do with banning alcohol,

707
00:43:09.060 --> 00:43:11.740
<v Fran Baum>it's to do with giving people a sense of respect,

708
00:43:11.800 --> 00:43:14.020
<v Fran Baum>and there's a very strong evidence base for that.

709
00:43:14.020 --> 00:43:15.280
<v Fran Baum>That you can read in my book.

710
00:43:15.680 --> 00:43:18.720
<v Fran Baum>There's nowhere we've found where you just go to people and say,

711
00:43:18.820 --> 00:43:21.920
<v Fran Baum>well, here's a pamphlet, you know, please change your behaviour.

712
00:43:22.280 --> 00:43:23.960
<v Fran Baum>Come to a group, change your behaviour.

713
00:43:24.020 --> 00:43:24.640
<v Fran Baum>It doesn't work.

714
00:43:24.900 --> 00:43:28.160
<v Fran Baum>People change their behaviour when their social settings change,

715
00:43:28.720 --> 00:43:31.400
<v Fran Baum>when they have jobs, when they have meaning in their life,

716
00:43:31.580 --> 00:43:33.240
<v Fran Baum>when they have something to live for.

717
00:43:33.680 --> 00:43:34.540
<v Fran Baum>That's, I think...

718
00:43:34.540 --> 00:43:38.520
<v Fran Baum>I think a few years ago we had a great review of our health system

719
00:43:38.520 --> 00:43:40.000
<v Fran Baum>by John Menegew,

720
00:43:40.140 --> 00:43:42.720
<v Fran Baum>and I always remember him saying he was very struck

721
00:43:42.720 --> 00:43:46.420
<v Fran Baum>by dealing with the issue of Aboriginal health.

722
00:43:46.760 --> 00:43:51.100
<v Fran Baum>And I think at one of the consultations an Aboriginal person said to him,

723
00:43:51.180 --> 00:43:55.040
<v Fran Baum>what you have to understand is we don't have anything to live for.

724
00:43:55.200 --> 00:43:57.540
<v Fran Baum>Why would we want to live longer in this community?

725
00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:00.760
<v Fran Baum>And he was very, very confronted by that.

726
00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:02.460
<v Fran Baum>And I think that's what it's about.

727
00:44:02.560 --> 00:44:04.440
<v Fran Baum>Why would you bother to...

728
00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:07.740
<v Fran Baum>How many people have seen Samson and Delilah?

729
00:44:08.960 --> 00:44:10.860
<v Fran Baum>Yeah, well, imagine if you're living there

730
00:44:10.860 --> 00:44:12.700
<v Fran Baum>and someone comes along and tells you to stop.

731
00:44:12.720 --> 00:44:15.380
<v Fran Baum>Stop petrol sniffing or stop smoking or stop drinking.

732
00:44:15.420 --> 00:44:15.920
<v Fran Baum>It's absurd.

733
00:44:16.260 --> 00:44:17.920
<v Fran Baum>If someone came along and said,

734
00:44:18.580 --> 00:44:20.540
<v Fran Baum>let's see you've got some decent housing

735
00:44:20.540 --> 00:44:23.840
<v Fran Baum>and someone actually cares about you and you have some social support,

736
00:44:24.160 --> 00:44:26.960
<v Fran Baum>then let's talk about stop smoking or stop drinking.

737
00:44:27.280 --> 00:44:31.460
<v Fran Baum>So all I'm saying is that we have to fix those basic issues first.

738
00:44:31.500 --> 00:44:34.200
<v Fran Baum>Of course, at the end of the day, we get healthy because we don't smoke,

739
00:44:34.380 --> 00:44:35.200
<v Fran Baum>we don't drink,

740
00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:39.760
<v Fran Baum>but I get so frustrated by people who think you can come in with that behaviour so naively,

741
00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:42.180
<v Fran Baum>and in fact you have to deal with what I've called

742
00:44:42.180 --> 00:44:46.000
<v Fran Baum>the bit below the iceberg and not just deal with the tip of the iceberg.

743
00:44:46.840 --> 00:44:52.020
<v Fred Chaney>Can I say I think that is the danger of what I've said I agree with,

744
00:44:52.200 --> 00:44:55.380
<v Fred Chaney>because I do agree that the social gradient of health is real.

745
00:44:55.660 --> 00:44:56.840
<v Fred Chaney>And it's not just Fran.

746
00:44:57.040 --> 00:44:59.680
<v Fred Chaney>I mean, if you look at the work done by Fiona Stanley

747
00:44:59.680 --> 00:45:01.900
<v Fred Chaney>and her child health research, the risk factors,

748
00:45:02.580 --> 00:45:04.700
<v Fred Chaney>you've got this many risk factors running on the bottom,

749
00:45:04.780 --> 00:45:08.800
<v Fred Chaney>up goes the incidence of all of these terrible things that we are worried about.

750
00:45:09.540 --> 00:45:12.160
<v Fred Chaney>But there's also a trap in making people feel that,

751
00:45:12.180 --> 00:45:13.320
<v Fred Chaney>they can do nothing themselves.

752
00:45:14.180 --> 00:45:17.280
<v Fred Chaney>If you believe your situation is hopeless, then it is.

753
00:45:18.140 --> 00:45:21.220
<v Fred Chaney>If you believe that you as a human being can make a difference.

754
00:45:21.380 --> 00:45:26.580
<v Fred Chaney>Now, I spent a bit of time with the most fantastic Aboriginal bloke in Sydney

755
00:45:26.580 --> 00:45:27.660
<v Fred Chaney>just a couple of weeks ago.

756
00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:29.680
<v Fred Chaney>I met him through an interview,

757
00:45:30.420 --> 00:45:32.440
<v Fred Chaney>and I just thought, this guy's a knockout.

758
00:45:33.600 --> 00:45:35.760
<v Fred Chaney>So I rang him up and said, could you give me a bit of time,

759
00:45:35.820 --> 00:45:38.720
<v Fred Chaney>because I want to talk to you and I want to find out a bit about you.

760
00:45:39.980 --> 00:45:41.740
<v Fred Chaney>He told me he has seven siblings.

761
00:45:42.860 --> 00:45:44.500
<v Fred Chaney>And they're all hopeless.

762
00:45:48.460 --> 00:45:48.900
<v Fred Chaney>Dysfunctional.

763
00:45:49.420 --> 00:45:52.340
<v Fred Chaney>He grew up, he said, in a totally dysfunctional family.

764
00:45:53.500 --> 00:45:56.200
<v Fred Chaney>And he said, I didn't want to live like that.

765
00:45:57.940 --> 00:46:00.220
<v Fred Chaney>He said, so I found out I could join the army,

766
00:46:01.020 --> 00:46:02.480
<v Fred Chaney>and I found out I could do a degree.

767
00:46:03.100 --> 00:46:04.080
<v Fred Chaney>I did a degree.

768
00:46:04.680 --> 00:46:08.120
<v Fred Chaney>Now I'm a lawyer, and now he's running a very large,

769
00:46:08.200 --> 00:46:12.000
<v Fred Chaney>very large, very well resourced Aboriginal corporation.

770
00:46:12.180 --> 00:46:13.120
<v Fred Chaney>And he's fantastic.

771
00:46:13.420 --> 00:46:14.820
<v Fred Chaney>Now, that's one out of eight.

772
00:46:15.860 --> 00:46:19.160
<v Fred Chaney>But the truth is, what is it?

773
00:46:19.900 --> 00:46:23.120
<v Fred Chaney>And I do think there's a huge risk of disempowering people

774
00:46:23.620 --> 00:46:24.640
<v Fred Chaney>by telling them.

775
00:46:26.060 --> 00:46:29.400
<v Fred Chaney>It's like I would not have let my children anywhere near

776
00:46:29.400 --> 00:46:32.000
<v Fred Chaney>the social workers who ran the CIS schemes

777
00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:34.260
<v Fred Chaney>that I visited back in the old Whitlam days.

778
00:46:35.180 --> 00:46:37.740
<v Fred Chaney>Because they gave the message to the kids that was this.

779
00:46:37.780 --> 00:46:40.140
<v Fred Chaney>I sat in meetings and listened to them.

780
00:46:41.520 --> 00:46:42.000
<v Fred Chaney>Society.

781
00:46:42.180 --> 00:46:42.680
<v Fred Chaney>It's always tough, you know.

782
00:46:42.760 --> 00:46:43.240
<v Fred Chaney>It's terrible.

783
00:46:43.540 --> 00:46:44.500
<v Fred Chaney>The system's terrible.

784
00:46:44.860 --> 00:46:45.980
<v Fred Chaney>You haven't got a chance.

785
00:46:46.160 --> 00:46:47.300
<v Fred Chaney>It's not your fault.

786
00:46:48.440 --> 00:46:52.060
<v Fred Chaney>And they engaged those kids in a downward spiral.

787
00:46:52.360 --> 00:46:54.620
<v Fred Chaney>The people who ran successful CIS schemes, I found,

788
00:46:54.840 --> 00:46:57.520
<v Fred Chaney>had done a bit of fencing, a bit of retail,

789
00:46:57.840 --> 00:46:59.220
<v Fred Chaney>a bit of truck driving,

790
00:47:00.180 --> 00:47:02.200
<v Fred Chaney>and they were full of life's possibilities.

791
00:47:02.900 --> 00:47:06.600
<v Fred Chaney>And I saw transformation occur in those.

792
00:47:06.840 --> 00:47:10.760
<v Fred Chaney>So I think the danger is in taking

793
00:47:10.760 --> 00:47:14.060
<v Fred Chaney>the absolutely, I think, scientific correctness

794
00:47:14.060 --> 00:47:18.520
<v Fred Chaney>of Marmot and Bohm and the others.

795
00:47:19.840 --> 00:47:20.360
<v Fred Chaney>Wilkinson.

796
00:47:21.040 --> 00:47:24.060
<v Fred Chaney>I've read their stuff and I think it's absolutely right.

797
00:47:24.240 --> 00:47:25.920
<v Fred Chaney>But to translate that into saying,

798
00:47:26.080 --> 00:47:29.580
<v Fred Chaney>and it's only if we fix all this that you can possibly improve.

799
00:47:29.860 --> 00:47:31.500
<v Fred Chaney>I think that's a really dangerous message.

800
00:47:32.060 --> 00:47:33.800
<v Fran Baum>I think building on that, Fred,

801
00:47:33.860 --> 00:47:37.720
<v Fran Baum>one of my fellow commissioners on the commission was Amartya Sen.

802
00:47:38.080 --> 00:47:40.740
<v Fran Baum>And, you know, he's the guy I want to know about.

803
00:47:40.760 --> 00:47:41.480
<v Fran Baum>He's the guy who won the Nobel Prize in economics.

804
00:47:41.840 --> 00:47:45.300
<v Fran Baum>But his big contribution to development was to say,

805
00:47:45.420 --> 00:47:46.920
<v Fran Baum>look, it's not just about money.

806
00:47:47.060 --> 00:47:50.700
<v Fran Baum>It's actually about people's skills and capabilities and capacities.

807
00:47:51.420 --> 00:47:54.760
<v Fran Baum>And I think if you build in that approach too

808
00:47:54.760 --> 00:47:57.040
<v Fran Baum>with Michael Marmot's message about control,

809
00:47:57.260 --> 00:47:58.600
<v Fran Baum>then you really get somewhere.

810
00:47:58.740 --> 00:48:01.360
<v Fran Baum>But for most people in most circumstances,

811
00:48:01.720 --> 00:48:05.080
<v Fran Baum>you know, you need to look at how do you support and build those capacities.

812
00:48:05.380 --> 00:48:08.340
<v Fran Baum>I mean, looking worldwide, we've got a gap

813
00:48:08.340 --> 00:48:12.400
<v Fran Baum>that is between what late, if you live in Sierra Leone

814
00:48:12.400 --> 00:48:14.220
<v Fran Baum>or in parts of sub-Saharan Africa,

815
00:48:14.360 --> 00:48:16.940
<v Fran Baum>life expectancy on average is about 38 now.

816
00:48:17.160 --> 00:48:19.640
<v Fran Baum>If you compare that to Japan at about 84,

817
00:48:20.040 --> 00:48:21.200
<v Fran Baum>what a massive difference.

818
00:48:21.520 --> 00:48:25.020
<v Fran Baum>Now, that's not because of the drive of the people.

819
00:48:25.140 --> 00:48:26.820
<v Fran Baum>And that's what we've really got to appreciate.

820
00:48:27.080 --> 00:48:30.660
<v Fran Baum>This is about a whole range of systematic factors

821
00:48:31.340 --> 00:48:34.440
<v Fran Baum>that are driving the health of populations to be different.

822
00:48:34.540 --> 00:48:36.700
<v Fran Baum>And yes, within that, there's differences.

823
00:48:36.800 --> 00:48:38.320
<v Fran Baum>And Nye, I know, can tell us,

824
00:48:38.340 --> 00:48:39.720
<v Fran Baum>she's got a wonderful story about her family

825
00:48:39.720 --> 00:48:40.960
<v Fran Baum>that she may or not want to say,

826
00:48:41.040 --> 00:48:44.040
<v Fran Baum>that there are cases where individuals flourish

827
00:48:44.040 --> 00:48:45.980
<v Fran Baum>and there are in every society, you know.

828
00:48:46.060 --> 00:48:48.120
<v Fran Baum>I think Fred's describing... But it's the systematic issues.

829
00:48:48.120 --> 00:48:50.980
<v Robyn McDermott>Fred's actually describing, I guess,

830
00:48:51.000 --> 00:48:53.800
<v Robyn McDermott>a whole population of very well-meaning,

831
00:48:54.340 --> 00:48:59.260
<v Robyn McDermott>mostly white people working in communities and bureaucracies

832
00:48:59.260 --> 00:49:04.580
<v Robyn McDermott>who have inadvertently created a culture of victimhood behind all of this.

833
00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:08.220
<v Fran Baum>Possibly, of which we're then possibly both one.

834
00:49:08.340 --> 00:49:09.920
<v Robyn McDermott>Indeed, we could be.

835
00:49:10.200 --> 00:49:12.880
<v Robyn McDermott>But I think this has played out now

836
00:49:12.880 --> 00:49:16.040
<v Robyn McDermott>where we see these stark differences in the application of the rules.

837
00:49:16.820 --> 00:49:18.840
<v Robyn McDermott>I go up to Cape York,

838
00:49:18.980 --> 00:49:23.780
<v Robyn McDermott>and there is nobody enforcing the law about the sale of cigarettes to minors.

839
00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:28.280
<v Robyn McDermott>There's nobody enforcing smoking in the workplace rules.

840
00:49:28.680 --> 00:49:31.240
<v Robyn McDermott>You go through to all of the schools,

841
00:49:31.420 --> 00:49:33.440
<v Robyn McDermott>there's nobody enforcing any truancy rules.

842
00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:37.800
<v Robyn McDermott>So there's one rule for white kids and one rule for black kids.

843
00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:41.920
<v Robyn McDermott>And so we have institutionalised this.

844
00:49:42.040 --> 00:49:46.560
<v Robyn McDermott>And then we say it's a victim thing.

845
00:49:46.700 --> 00:49:50.320
<v Robyn McDermott>I think the institutions are guilty in their application

846
00:49:50.320 --> 00:49:52.720
<v Robyn McDermott>and non-application of the law,

847
00:49:52.840 --> 00:49:54.180
<v Robyn McDermott>which should be the same for everybody.

848
00:49:54.500 --> 00:49:57.460
<v Robyn McDermott>Why can't kids have decent schools everywhere they live?

849
00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:00.880
<v Robyn McDermott>Nairie, can you talk a little bit about the leadership issue,

850
00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:03.100
<v Robyn McDermott>another challenge that Fred laid out?

851
00:50:04.940 --> 00:50:06.220
<v Robyn McDermott>Until recently,

852
00:50:06.220 --> 00:50:11.200
<v Robyn McDermott>I go to visit a lot of the AMSs and the CEOs

853
00:50:11.200 --> 00:50:14.600
<v Robyn McDermott>and even some of the doctors there are still smoking.

854
00:50:14.760 --> 00:50:15.940
<v Robyn McDermott>It's a smoking culture still.

855
00:50:15.940 --> 00:50:17.040
<v Robyn McDermott>Aboriginal Medical Services.

856
00:50:17.580 --> 00:50:18.740
<v Robyn McDermott>Yeah, Aboriginal Medical Services.

857
00:50:18.940 --> 00:50:22.500
<v Robyn McDermott>So what are the responsibilities of the leadership here, Nairie?

858
00:50:22.700 --> 00:50:25.340
<v Robyn McDermott>And how do you think they're being played out?

859
00:50:26.560 --> 00:50:28.420
<v Ngiare Brown>Before I answer that, can I just...

860
00:50:28.420 --> 00:50:32.340
<v Ngiare Brown>I'm actually happy to talk about some points about my family, for example.

861
00:50:32.820 --> 00:50:36.200
<v Ngiare Brown>So, you know, my father's family is out there,

862
00:50:36.220 --> 00:50:38.300
<v Ngiare Brown>he's Aboriginal, both of his parents.

863
00:50:39.640 --> 00:50:42.580
<v Ngiare Brown>As a child, he was nine, his mother died as the eldest son.

864
00:50:42.680 --> 00:50:45.720
<v Ngiare Brown>He left school, he was responsible in supporting...

865
00:50:45.720 --> 00:50:47.880
<v Ngiare Brown>..you know, to support his father, to support the family.

866
00:50:48.340 --> 00:50:51.420
<v Ngiare Brown>So he didn't have a formal education to any particular extent,

867
00:50:51.520 --> 00:50:52.620
<v Ngiare Brown>but he's a very smart man.

868
00:50:52.860 --> 00:50:55.380
<v Ngiare Brown>But it also meant that he understood the importance of an education

869
00:50:55.380 --> 00:50:56.500
<v Ngiare Brown>for my brother and I.

870
00:50:56.740 --> 00:50:58.900
<v Ngiare Brown>Now, I don't drink or smoke, I'm a total wowser,

871
00:50:58.920 --> 00:51:00.660
<v Ngiare Brown>I'm very boring, as Robin will attest to.

872
00:51:00.900 --> 00:51:03.260
<v Ngiare Brown>I'm not going out with you. No, I don't think you would, in fact.

873
00:51:04.980 --> 00:51:05.340
<v Ngiare Brown>But...

874
00:51:05.340 --> 00:51:07.700
<v Ngiare Brown>..both my brother and I are doctors.

875
00:51:08.160 --> 00:51:12.660
<v Ngiare Brown>So rather than us focusing on why that family is particularly dysfunctional,

876
00:51:12.680 --> 00:51:15.500
<v Ngiare Brown>why not why there are some families who are doing really well

877
00:51:15.500 --> 00:51:16.920
<v Ngiare Brown>for a variety of reasons?

878
00:51:17.160 --> 00:51:18.520
<v Ngiare Brown>And I'm not just the other one.

879
00:51:18.580 --> 00:51:21.720
<v Ngiare Brown>We have over 100 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander doctors

880
00:51:21.720 --> 00:51:24.620
<v Ngiare Brown>and medical students and other health professionals,

881
00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:27.100
<v Ngiare Brown>lawyers, senior bureaucrats and academics.

882
00:51:27.120 --> 00:51:30.640
<v Ngiare Brown>So why not look at how those families are successful,

883
00:51:30.880 --> 00:51:33.780
<v Ngiare Brown>focus and promote those sorts of perspectives?

884
00:51:33.960 --> 00:51:35.320
<v Ngiare Brown>That's what I think is really important.

885
00:51:35.340 --> 00:51:36.260
<v Ngiare Brown>I think it's...

886
00:51:36.260 --> 00:51:36.720
<v Ngiare Brown>Excellent.

887
00:51:37.240 --> 00:51:37.760
<v Robyn McDermott>Absolutely.

888
00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:38.340
<v Fred Chaney>Hear, hear.

889
00:51:39.960 --> 00:51:43.560
<v Ngiare Brown>And I think it's important to the notion of leadership, for example.

890
00:51:43.560 --> 00:51:45.840
<v Ngiare Brown>And I think there are many levels and many perspectives

891
00:51:45.840 --> 00:51:48.180
<v Ngiare Brown>and many interpretations of what leadership is.

892
00:51:48.360 --> 00:51:51.780
<v Ngiare Brown>I would see some of the old men and women that I deal with

893
00:51:51.780 --> 00:51:53.160
<v Ngiare Brown>in communities as leaders,

894
00:51:53.260 --> 00:51:57.360
<v Ngiare Brown>because they have the dignity and the wisdom

895
00:51:57.360 --> 00:52:00.540
<v Ngiare Brown>and they hold themselves in a manner

896
00:52:00.540 --> 00:52:03.480
<v Ngiare Brown>which means that I want to learn from them

897
00:52:03.480 --> 00:52:05.060
<v Ngiare Brown>and to understand them,

898
00:52:05.060 --> 00:52:06.780
<v Ngiare Brown>and I respect them unconditionally.

899
00:52:07.940 --> 00:52:11.940
<v Ngiare Brown>There are leadership issues within particular services

900
00:52:11.940 --> 00:52:16.000
<v Ngiare Brown>or particular positions that may or may not come with a certain level

901
00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:18.340
<v Ngiare Brown>versus that innate sort of personal leadership

902
00:52:18.340 --> 00:52:20.460
<v Ngiare Brown>that people can exhibit.

903
00:52:20.580 --> 00:52:21.740
<v Ngiare Brown>But in any of those positions,

904
00:52:21.840 --> 00:52:24.760
<v Ngiare Brown>I think it is really important that you set a good example,

905
00:52:24.940 --> 00:52:28.200
<v Ngiare Brown>because in turn, you will hopefully be mentoring

906
00:52:28.200 --> 00:52:30.380
<v Ngiare Brown>and supporting future generations.

907
00:52:31.280 --> 00:52:34.460
<v Ngiare Brown>You need to be able to raise people's expectations

908
00:52:34.460 --> 00:52:37.620
<v Ngiare Brown>and their aspirations about what they can achieve.

909
00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:40.120
<v Ngiare Brown>And the bonus for me personally, for example,

910
00:52:40.180 --> 00:52:43.660
<v Ngiare Brown>was that I was never told that there were things that I could not do.

911
00:52:44.440 --> 00:52:47.360
<v Ngiare Brown>So, you know, my parents were happy that I said I wanted to do medicine,

912
00:52:47.480 --> 00:52:48.380
<v Ngiare Brown>but they never said to me,

913
00:52:48.420 --> 00:52:49.660
<v Ngiare Brown>well, then you have to do medicine.

914
00:52:49.980 --> 00:52:51.340
<v Ngiare Brown>We don't mind what you do,

915
00:52:51.340 --> 00:52:53.860
<v Ngiare Brown>as long as it's because you choose to do it,

916
00:52:53.900 --> 00:52:55.820
<v Ngiare Brown>not because somebody else tells you

917
00:52:55.820 --> 00:52:57.680
<v Ngiare Brown>that that's all you can do because you're black,

918
00:52:58.200 --> 00:52:59.840
<v Ngiare Brown>and you must give it your best shot.

919
00:52:59.920 --> 00:53:02.960
<v Ngiare Brown>But you must understand that things won't fall in your lap.

920
00:53:03.000 --> 00:53:04.320
<v Ngiare Brown>You actually have to work hard,

921
00:53:04.320 --> 00:53:05.900
<v Ngiare Brown>for things that you have in your life.

922
00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:07.160
<v Ngiare Brown>So there's a whole, you know,

923
00:53:07.180 --> 00:53:09.800
<v Ngiare Brown>there's a really sort of complex fabric

924
00:53:09.800 --> 00:53:12.000
<v Ngiare Brown>of what leadership means and what it is.

925
00:53:12.220 --> 00:53:14.280
<v Ngiare Brown>But with it comes a certain responsibility

926
00:53:15.180 --> 00:53:16.820
<v Ngiare Brown>to conduct yourself in a manner

927
00:53:17.600 --> 00:53:19.100
<v Ngiare Brown>that you know will influence others.

928
00:53:19.180 --> 00:53:22.180
<v Ngiare Brown>So having health professionals that smoke, for example,

929
00:53:22.180 --> 00:53:24.780
<v Ngiare Brown>again, I'm biased, I don't smoke, it drives me nuts.

930
00:53:25.600 --> 00:53:27.000
<v Ngiare Brown>So I would say that's a no-no.

931
00:53:27.040 --> 00:53:28.900
<v Ngiare Brown>But you look at doctors in the emergency department

932
00:53:28.900 --> 00:53:32.200
<v Ngiare Brown>and ambulance officers and nurses who work in psych, for example,

933
00:53:32.300 --> 00:53:33.540
<v Ngiare Brown>as well as the patients themselves,

934
00:53:33.540 --> 00:53:36.780
<v Ngiare Brown>then, you know, that's a response to a whole range of other things,

935
00:53:36.900 --> 00:53:39.180
<v Ngiare Brown>including external stressors and, you know,

936
00:53:39.220 --> 00:53:41.960
<v Ngiare Brown>the lack of control and mastery in their lives and in their workplace.

937
00:53:42.260 --> 00:53:43.400
<v Robyn McDermott>And the subculture of smoking.

938
00:53:43.400 --> 00:53:44.000
<v Ngiare Brown>Yeah, absolutely.

939
00:53:44.120 --> 00:53:45.960
<v Ngiare Brown>And because, you know, it's basically acceptable

940
00:53:45.960 --> 00:53:47.460
<v Ngiare Brown>and everybody else their age does it.

941
00:53:47.500 --> 00:53:50.060
<v Ngiare Brown>So, you know, there are things, but there are things we can deal with.

942
00:53:50.580 --> 00:53:53.240
<v Ngiare Brown>And the Smoke Check Program in New South Wales, for example,

943
00:53:53.240 --> 00:53:54.260
<v Ngiare Brown>is doing just that.

944
00:53:54.460 --> 00:53:56.900
<v Ngiare Brown>It's about capacity and education of health workers

945
00:53:57.720 --> 00:54:00.540
<v Ngiare Brown>to help themselves in terms of their health

946
00:54:00.540 --> 00:54:03.280
<v Ngiare Brown>and their health behaviours so that they're better placed,

947
00:54:03.280 --> 00:54:03.520
<v Ngiare Brown>they're better prepared,

948
00:54:03.540 --> 00:54:04.420
<v Ngiare Brown>and then to lead by example.

949
00:54:04.620 --> 00:54:05.260
<v Ngiare Brown>Yeah, that makes sense.

950
00:54:05.440 --> 00:54:10.080
<v Robyn McDermott>Fred made another comment about getting out of the ghetto.

951
00:54:12.460 --> 00:54:15.820
<v Robyn McDermott>And it reminded me of a comment

952
00:54:15.820 --> 00:54:18.940
<v Robyn McDermott>that one of the young Indigenous doctors was making,

953
00:54:19.240 --> 00:54:21.500
<v Robyn McDermott>who's now an ENT surgeon, actually,

954
00:54:22.240 --> 00:54:24.560
<v Robyn McDermott>but a few years ago up in the Torres Strait.

955
00:54:24.640 --> 00:54:29.060
<v Robyn McDermott>And he told me the story of how he was in high school,

956
00:54:29.140 --> 00:54:31.800
<v Robyn McDermott>Year 10 in Queensland, and failing

957
00:54:31.800 --> 00:54:34.340
<v Robyn McDermott>and just not engaged and not interested.

958
00:54:34.680 --> 00:54:37.940
<v Robyn McDermott>And then a couple of doctors came and spoke to the class.

959
00:54:38.180 --> 00:54:39.380
<v Robyn McDermott>They were Aboriginal doctors.

960
00:54:39.480 --> 00:54:43.400
<v Robyn McDermott>And suddenly there was a whole other world of possibility

961
00:54:43.400 --> 00:54:46.880
<v Robyn McDermott>that had never been in front of these kids before.

962
00:54:47.420 --> 00:54:52.480
<v Robyn McDermott>So if that can happen in the regional towns of Queensland

963
00:54:52.480 --> 00:54:54.500
<v Robyn McDermott>and possibly the cities,

964
00:54:55.200 --> 00:54:58.040
<v Robyn McDermott>how can we put these other possibilities

965
00:54:58.040 --> 00:55:01.700
<v Robyn McDermott>in front of the eyes of the kids in the remote areas?

966
00:55:01.700 --> 00:55:04.800
<v Ngiare Brown>Well, and obviously I know who that is.

967
00:55:04.860 --> 00:55:05.780
<v Ngiare Brown>It kind of narrows it down.

968
00:55:05.880 --> 00:55:05.980
<v Ngiare Brown>Yes.

969
00:55:06.200 --> 00:55:08.140
<v Ngiare Brown>But the interesting thing about that was that

970
00:55:08.140 --> 00:55:10.060
<v Ngiare Brown>he was told by his career adviser,

971
00:55:10.240 --> 00:55:12.420
<v Ngiare Brown>well, you'd be better off leaving school,

972
00:55:12.500 --> 00:55:14.640
<v Ngiare Brown>getting a trade and helping your family financially.

973
00:55:15.020 --> 00:55:18.260
<v Ngiare Brown>Now, his father was a doctor and his mum a nurse.

974
00:55:18.460 --> 00:55:20.700
<v Ngiare Brown>So in fact, there were good foundations

975
00:55:21.320 --> 00:55:23.560
<v Ngiare Brown>for him understanding the importance of education.

976
00:55:23.840 --> 00:55:26.600
<v Ngiare Brown>But because he wasn't actually engaged in that education,

977
00:55:26.980 --> 00:55:28.040
<v Ngiare Brown>he'd been put off.

978
00:55:28.220 --> 00:55:30.920
<v Ngiare Brown>He then saw those two doctors who actually just

979
00:55:30.920 --> 00:55:34.800
<v Ngiare Brown>they inspired him not only to do medicine,

980
00:55:34.860 --> 00:55:38.140
<v Ngiare Brown>but to specialise and to be a leader in his field.

981
00:55:38.440 --> 00:55:43.120
<v Ngiare Brown>And so I think, you know, Lewis would say that with opportunity,

982
00:55:43.340 --> 00:55:45.100
<v Ngiare Brown>and each of us have had great opportunity,

983
00:55:45.940 --> 00:55:47.360
<v Ngiare Brown>comes great responsibility.

984
00:55:47.380 --> 00:55:50.340
<v Ngiare Brown>And our responsibility is to perpetuate that opportunity

985
00:55:50.340 --> 00:55:54.280
<v Ngiare Brown>and to be role models and to actually engage our kids

986
00:55:54.280 --> 00:55:57.560
<v Ngiare Brown>so that, yes, they can be bicultural,

987
00:55:57.580 --> 00:55:59.260
<v Ngiare Brown>but they need to understand the importance

988
00:55:59.260 --> 00:56:00.500
<v Ngiare Brown>and the context of both.

989
00:56:00.500 --> 00:56:03.180
<v Ngiare Brown>You know, because I think we can bring sort of a special richness

990
00:56:03.180 --> 00:56:06.520
<v Ngiare Brown>to the way that we practise, the way that we engage,

991
00:56:06.660 --> 00:56:07.560
<v Ngiare Brown>the way that we educate,

992
00:56:07.620 --> 00:56:09.540
<v Ngiare Brown>and to the medical profession more broadly.

993
00:56:09.620 --> 00:56:10.980
<v Ngiare Brown>So there are a whole range of bonuses.

994
00:56:11.420 --> 00:56:14.660
<v Robyn McDermott>But in a practical sense, we know for a fact

995
00:56:14.660 --> 00:56:16.600
<v Robyn McDermott>that we've got the Northern Territory Report,

996
00:56:16.920 --> 00:56:19.040
<v Robyn McDermott>there's endless other data,

997
00:56:19.680 --> 00:56:21.980
<v Robyn McDermott>mostly out of northern and central Australia,

998
00:56:22.160 --> 00:56:25.840
<v Robyn McDermott>about the appalling education standard

999
00:56:25.840 --> 00:56:28.600
<v Robyn McDermott>and the service and the conditions of the facilities,

1000
00:56:28.880 --> 00:56:30.480
<v Robyn McDermott>the qualifications of the facilities,

1001
00:56:30.500 --> 00:56:31.680
<v Robyn McDermott>the quality of the teachers, the turnover,

1002
00:56:31.840 --> 00:56:33.300
<v Robyn McDermott>the accommodation for teachers.

1003
00:56:33.640 --> 00:56:37.560
<v Robyn McDermott>So how are we going to put this in front of kids

1004
00:56:37.560 --> 00:56:41.140
<v Robyn McDermott>given that we have totally failed to invest there?

1005
00:56:42.500 --> 00:56:44.140
<v Robyn McDermott>I know this is a Dorothy Dixit,

1006
00:56:44.220 --> 00:56:53.700
<v Robyn McDermott>but really I think that if we can get such a generational change

1007
00:56:53.700 --> 00:56:58.680
<v Robyn McDermott>in Indigenous kids in the cities and the regional centres,

1008
00:56:58.680 --> 00:57:01.660
<v Robyn McDermott>then it's a big leap to the remote areas

1009
00:57:01.660 --> 00:57:04.100
<v Robyn McDermott>because they are so behind in primary care.

1010
00:57:04.360 --> 00:57:04.720
<v Robyn McDermott>Fred.

1011
00:57:04.840 --> 00:57:06.760
<v Fred Chaney>Look, to be quite honest,

1012
00:57:06.840 --> 00:57:08.780
<v Fred Chaney>I think this is a matter of will and resources.

1013
00:57:09.300 --> 00:57:12.580
<v Fred Chaney>And I can speak with a little bit of experience here

1014
00:57:12.580 --> 00:57:15.820
<v Fred Chaney>because a little private foundation that I helped set up

1015
00:57:15.820 --> 00:57:20.580
<v Fred Chaney>back in the mid-'90s has been working in fairly remote areas,

1016
00:57:20.680 --> 00:57:25.680
<v Fred Chaney>the Pilbara principally, but also in Northern Territory now

1017
00:57:25.680 --> 00:57:28.120
<v Fred Chaney>and in South Australia, even, Port Augusta.

1018
00:57:29.120 --> 00:57:30.500
<v Fred Chaney>And the miners...

1019
00:57:30.500 --> 00:57:31.780
<v Fred Chaney>It all started with mining companies.

1020
00:57:31.860 --> 00:57:32.680
<v Fred Chaney>They came to us and said,

1021
00:57:32.740 --> 00:57:34.240
<v Fred Chaney>Look, we're employing people,

1022
00:57:34.420 --> 00:57:36.320
<v Fred Chaney>but we're only employing them in unskilled work

1023
00:57:36.320 --> 00:57:37.100
<v Fred Chaney>and we want...

1024
00:57:37.100 --> 00:57:39.240
<v Fred Chaney>You know, the future of work is not in unskilled work.

1025
00:57:39.360 --> 00:57:42.940
<v Fred Chaney>We want Aboriginal people to be getting the good jobs in the company.

1026
00:57:43.080 --> 00:57:43.760
<v Fred Chaney>Can you help?

1027
00:57:44.600 --> 00:57:47.260
<v Fred Chaney>So we started a project at the Karratha High School

1028
00:57:47.260 --> 00:57:49.220
<v Fred Chaney>which had only ever graduated one child,

1029
00:57:49.480 --> 00:57:51.380
<v Fred Chaney>one Aboriginal child from Year 12.

1030
00:57:52.340 --> 00:57:54.300
<v Fred Chaney>I think we've got about 60 now.

1031
00:57:55.080 --> 00:57:57.380
<v Fred Chaney>And one of them, a girl from Roben, is a lawyer.

1032
00:57:57.700 --> 00:57:58.100
<v Fred Chaney>And she's a lawyer.

1033
00:57:58.900 --> 00:58:00.560
<v Fred Chaney>We've now got 14 of these projects.

1034
00:58:00.900 --> 00:58:02.620
<v Fred Chaney>This year, we had only...

1035
00:58:02.620 --> 00:58:03.980
<v Fred Chaney>I mean, these are pitifully small numbers,

1036
00:58:04.060 --> 00:58:06.820
<v Fred Chaney>but we had 50 Year 12s come through.

1037
00:58:07.940 --> 00:58:11.140
<v Fred Chaney>40% plus of those are in some form of tertiary education now.

1038
00:58:11.680 --> 00:58:13.280
<v Fred Chaney>About 40% are in the trades.

1039
00:58:13.560 --> 00:58:14.620
<v Fred Chaney>The rest are in jobs.

1040
00:58:15.220 --> 00:58:16.100
<v Fred Chaney>Now, what do we do?

1041
00:58:16.240 --> 00:58:18.080
<v Fred Chaney>Well, we actually provide them with a homework centre,

1042
00:58:18.940 --> 00:58:19.300
<v Fred Chaney>tutoring,

1043
00:58:20.020 --> 00:58:22.440
<v Fred Chaney>but just as importantly, we give them some envisioning.

1044
00:58:22.500 --> 00:58:24.840
<v Fred Chaney>So if they're in Western Australia, they come to Perth,

1045
00:58:24.840 --> 00:58:26.940
<v Fred Chaney>they visit the universities, they visit the shopping centres,

1046
00:58:26.940 --> 00:58:28.720
<v Fred Chaney>and as they see, there's a wider world.

1047
00:58:28.800 --> 00:58:33.820
<v Fred Chaney>The kids from Alice Springs sailed a boat down from Port Augusta to...

1048
00:58:33.820 --> 00:58:35.620
<v Fred Chaney>Not from Alice Springs, I hope.

1049
00:58:35.840 --> 00:58:36.920
<v Fran Baum>No, they came down to...

1050
00:58:36.920 --> 00:58:39.240
<v Fran Baum>And sailed a boat from Port Augusta to Adelaide.

1051
00:58:39.320 --> 00:58:39.800
<v Fran Baum>Todd's been full lately.

1052
00:58:40.080 --> 00:58:41.680
<v Fred Chaney>Now, you know, this is a...

1053
00:58:42.180 --> 00:58:44.380
<v Fred Chaney>This is potentially a life-transforming experience.

1054
00:58:44.860 --> 00:58:47.480
<v Fred Chaney>A group of girls from Alice and another sister project

1055
00:58:47.480 --> 00:58:49.420
<v Fred Chaney>called Girls at the Centre went down to Melbourne.

1056
00:58:50.240 --> 00:58:53.000
<v Fred Chaney>And they stayed with families in Melbourne.

1057
00:58:53.100 --> 00:58:54.340
<v Fred Chaney>They visited the Melbourne University.

1058
00:58:54.400 --> 00:58:56.080
<v Fred Chaney>They went to Trinity College.

1059
00:58:56.080 --> 00:58:58.620
<v Fred Chaney>And they peppered Trinity College with,

1060
00:58:58.660 --> 00:59:01.140
<v Fred Chaney>how do we go about working for a scholarship here?

1061
00:59:01.720 --> 00:59:03.080
<v Fred Chaney>What I'm saying is, if you give kids...

1062
00:59:03.880 --> 00:59:06.000
<v Fred Chaney>I mean, sometimes it's a brilliant sort of meeting

1063
00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:07.080
<v Fred Chaney>from Aboriginal doctors.

1064
00:59:07.240 --> 00:59:08.680
<v Fred Chaney>It doesn't matter what it is, but giving you a vision

1065
00:59:09.260 --> 00:59:12.360
<v Fred Chaney>that there's a whole world out there that you can conquer

1066
00:59:13.380 --> 00:59:14.180
<v Fred Chaney>actually works.

1067
00:59:14.400 --> 00:59:15.820
<v Fred Chaney>And our little model is replicable.

1068
00:59:16.020 --> 00:59:17.640
<v Fred Chaney>We've now repeated it 14 times.

1069
00:59:17.820 --> 00:59:20.420
<v Fred Chaney>We're just setting it up now in the Hunter Valley.

1070
00:59:20.980 --> 00:59:22.200
<v Fred Chaney>We do it by invitation.

1071
00:59:22.760 --> 00:59:26.060
<v Fred Chaney>It costs probably $5,000 per child per year.

1072
00:59:26.060 --> 00:59:27.060
<v Fred Chaney>It's a secondary school year.

1073
00:59:28.460 --> 00:59:30.780
<v Fred Chaney>What do they pay to send a kid to St Peter's here?

1074
00:59:32.260 --> 00:59:37.220
<v Fred Chaney>I mean, this is an investment which has a huge return.

1075
00:59:38.060 --> 00:59:40.540
<v Fred Chaney>And why don't we enrich the education,

1076
00:59:40.760 --> 00:59:42.880
<v Fred Chaney>not just of Aboriginal kids, of poor white kids?

1077
00:59:43.100 --> 00:59:46.800
<v Fred Chaney>I mean, it is just awful the way we trash disadvantaged people

1078
00:59:46.800 --> 00:59:48.200
<v Fred Chaney>in the education system.

1079
00:59:48.420 --> 00:59:50.540
<v Fred Chaney>And it's because we're not prepared to spend the money.

1080
00:59:50.920 --> 00:59:52.760
<v Fred Chaney>We're not prepared to devote real attention.

1081
00:59:52.980 --> 00:59:55.060
<v Fred Chaney>And I tell you, I reckon about half the teachers think,

1082
00:59:55.080 --> 00:59:58.080
<v Fred Chaney>think that Aboriginal kids can't learn anyway.

1083
00:59:59.540 --> 01:00:02.720
<v Fred Chaney>Now, the two most successful Aboriginal educators I know,

1084
01:00:02.840 --> 01:00:07.180
<v Fred Chaney>Chris Sarra and George Hewitson, both of whom had brilliant results,

1085
01:00:08.080 --> 01:00:09.980
<v Fred Chaney>when they became principals, said to their teachers,

1086
01:00:10.180 --> 01:00:12.680
<v Fred Chaney>we believe the children can learn the full curriculum.

1087
01:00:12.780 --> 01:00:15.500
<v Fred Chaney>If you don't believe that's true, you should leave.

1088
01:00:15.680 --> 01:00:16.960
<v Fred Chaney>And half the teachers left.

1089
01:00:17.320 --> 01:00:20.360
<v Fred Chaney>So that's the statistical basis for my saying half the teachers,

1090
01:00:20.520 --> 01:00:21.540
<v Fred Chaney>a sample of two.

1091
01:00:22.600 --> 01:00:24.320
<v Fred Chaney>But, no, I mean, honestly,

1092
01:00:24.320 --> 01:00:25.820
<v Fred Chaney>that is the simpler thing.

1093
01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:28.260
<v Fred Chaney>Kids are educated up to expectations.

1094
01:00:29.620 --> 01:00:32.240
<v Fred Chaney>And if their teacher expectations are low,

1095
01:00:32.400 --> 01:00:35.060
<v Fred Chaney>and I know they are low because I talk to teachers,

1096
01:00:36.380 --> 01:00:38.620
<v Fred Chaney>the kids are stuffed before they even start.

1097
01:00:38.940 --> 01:00:41.620
<v Fred Chaney>So I think we've got to get a bit passionate about this

1098
01:00:41.620 --> 01:00:44.400
<v Fred Chaney>and get off our bums and insist on a higher level of performance

1099
01:00:44.400 --> 01:00:45.060
<v Fred Chaney>and engagement.

1100
01:00:45.420 --> 01:00:47.780
<v Ngiare Brown>Which is actually exactly the point I was going to make.

1101
01:00:47.860 --> 01:00:49.660
<v Ngiare Brown>And I know Pat Anderson would agree, for example,

1102
01:00:50.300 --> 01:00:52.880
<v Ngiare Brown>one of the fundamental problems, particularly, say,

1103
01:00:52.920 --> 01:00:53.320
<v Ngiare Brown>in the Northern Territory,

1104
01:00:53.480 --> 01:00:58.680
<v Ngiare Brown>is that we expect and accept lower standards for Aboriginal kids.

1105
01:00:58.980 --> 01:01:01.240
<v Ngiare Brown>So, you know, who cares if they don't come to school?

1106
01:01:01.360 --> 01:01:03.460
<v Ngiare Brown>Who cares if they can't read or write when they're 15?

1107
01:01:04.180 --> 01:01:08.280
<v Ngiare Brown>And the other thing is that the curriculum and the engagement,

1108
01:01:08.420 --> 01:01:11.340
<v Ngiare Brown>you know, of the parents and the students is just irrelevant to them.

1109
01:01:11.580 --> 01:01:15.160
<v Ngiare Brown>So because there is no acknowledgement that there's also some local

1110
01:01:15.160 --> 01:01:19.580
<v Ngiare Brown>and cultural perspectives that would be really important to the mob

1111
01:01:19.580 --> 01:01:22.220
<v Ngiare Brown>and would actually encourage them to send their children

1112
01:01:22.220 --> 01:01:23.460
<v Ngiare Brown>because they would see them as children.

1113
01:01:23.480 --> 01:01:26.120
<v Ngiare Brown>They would see themselves as respected in the whole approach.

1114
01:01:26.300 --> 01:01:29.140
<v Ngiare Brown>So I think we need to raise our expectations of achievement.

1115
01:01:29.520 --> 01:01:30.000
<v Ngiare Brown>Absolutely.

1116
01:01:30.320 --> 01:01:33.200
<v Ngiare Brown>And then look at ways that we can actually make the system

1117
01:01:33.200 --> 01:01:36.120
<v Ngiare Brown>and the content relevant to Aboriginal kids so we can engage them

1118
01:01:36.120 --> 01:01:39.620
<v Ngiare Brown>and show them that they are valued and that they are respected

1119
01:01:39.620 --> 01:01:41.920
<v Ngiare Brown>as children and as Aboriginal people.

1120
01:01:42.240 --> 01:01:43.960
<v Ngiare Brown>Otherwise, we'll never overcome them.

1121
01:01:44.540 --> 01:01:48.660
<v Robyn McDermott>Actually, Peter Sutton's referred to that attitude you described

1122
01:01:48.660 --> 01:01:51.360
<v Robyn McDermott>as the soft bigotry of low expectations.

1123
01:01:51.480 --> 01:01:52.660
<v Robyn McDermott>And you see it everywhere.

1124
01:01:52.980 --> 01:01:53.460
<v Robyn McDermott>Yes.

1125
01:01:53.480 --> 01:01:55.300
<v Robyn McDermott>But in particular, and more worrying,

1126
01:01:55.460 --> 01:01:57.920
<v Robyn McDermott>you see it in government and government services.

1127
01:01:58.400 --> 01:02:03.460
<v Robyn McDermott>And so that might well account for some of this quite spectacular success

1128
01:02:03.460 --> 01:02:08.080
<v Robyn McDermott>you see where private enterprise and industry, the NGO sector,

1129
01:02:08.320 --> 01:02:13.860
<v Robyn McDermott>has come in without these expectations or with a different set

1130
01:02:14.480 --> 01:02:19.820
<v Robyn McDermott>or with fresh eyes and had great success because we know from every other field

1131
01:02:20.480 --> 01:02:22.120
<v Robyn McDermott>Aboriginal people are immensely talented.

1132
01:02:22.800 --> 01:02:26.320
<v Robyn McDermott>Musicians, artists, sports people, every other field,

1133
01:02:26.520 --> 01:02:28.380
<v Robyn McDermott>except they're failing in education.

1134
01:02:28.720 --> 01:02:29.280
<v Robyn McDermott>What is this?

1135
01:02:30.040 --> 01:02:31.420
<v Robyn McDermott>It's the expectations.

1136
01:02:32.540 --> 01:02:34.680
<v Robyn McDermott>So we have to do better than that.

1137
01:02:34.860 --> 01:02:38.540
<v Robyn McDermott>Here we have a whole conversation about the health gap

1138
01:02:38.540 --> 01:02:40.060
<v Robyn McDermott>and it's all about education.

1139
01:02:40.240 --> 01:02:41.600
<v Robyn McDermott>I don't think that's an actual...

1140
01:02:41.600 --> 01:02:41.940
<v Robyn McDermott>Social gradient.

1141
01:02:41.940 --> 01:02:43.900
<v Robyn McDermott>Fundamental social determinants.

1142
01:02:44.100 --> 01:02:44.260
<v Robyn McDermott>Absolutely.

1143
01:02:45.640 --> 01:02:51.460
<v Robyn McDermott>Fran, I think, and everyone, I think if anyone has some questions

1144
01:02:51.460 --> 01:02:54.020
<v Robyn McDermott>or comments, there's a microphone in the middle there.

1145
01:02:55.200 --> 01:02:57.580
<v Robyn McDermott>There's a gentleman here and another one.

1146
01:02:58.440 --> 01:03:00.140
<v Robyn McDermott>Just to the microphone, please.

1147
01:03:01.020 --> 01:03:03.600
<v Robyn McDermott>And could you please say your name and where you're from?

1148
01:03:04.240 --> 01:03:05.380
<v Audience>I'm John Woodall.

1149
01:03:05.480 --> 01:03:08.200
<v Audience>I'm a remote doctor out at Ceduna,

1150
01:03:09.060 --> 01:03:14.260
<v Audience>formerly a hard-working medical tourist in the desert regions of Western Australia.

1151
01:03:14.800 --> 01:03:16.280
<v Audience>Thank you for your contributions.

1152
01:03:16.560 --> 01:03:20.240
<v Audience>I just wondered if some comments,

1153
01:03:20.240 --> 01:03:24.640
<v Audience>comments could be made or some feelings could be expressed

1154
01:03:24.640 --> 01:03:27.800
<v Audience>about some simple ideas that occurred to me

1155
01:03:27.800 --> 01:03:33.220
<v Audience>from meeting Aboriginal doctors like Lewis Peachey

1156
01:03:33.220 --> 01:03:37.520
<v Audience>and my experience in the desert regions

1157
01:03:37.520 --> 01:03:45.200
<v Audience>where these very remote communities had children with very few facilities

1158
01:03:45.200 --> 01:03:47.800
<v Audience>and yet there were some excellent opportunities

1159
01:03:47.800 --> 01:03:50.220
<v Audience>for some very simple ideas.

1160
01:03:51.500 --> 01:03:52.220
<v Audience>Something simply

1161
01:04:06.300 --> 01:04:13.300
<v Audience>about responsibility when opportunities are given.

1162
01:04:16.300 --> 01:04:18.880
<v Audience>One positive note I also want to mention

1163
01:04:18.880 --> 01:04:22.540
<v Audience>is that there's a very good example.

1164
01:04:22.540 --> 01:04:25.120
<v Audience>I've never been to any of those movies you spoke about,

1165
01:04:25.180 --> 01:04:28.620
<v Audience>but a wonderful example of the cooperation

1166
01:04:28.620 --> 01:04:31.100
<v Audience>between the white and the black people

1167
01:04:31.100 --> 01:04:35.820
<v Audience>was announced in 2004 at a Grand Rounds

1168
01:04:35.820 --> 01:04:38.300
<v Audience>at Alice Springs Hospital, the Mount Theo project.

1169
01:04:39.040 --> 01:04:43.540
<v Audience>And that's an exceedingly good example of petrol sniffing,

1170
01:04:43.560 --> 01:04:46.740
<v Audience>the people from both sides of the community

1171
01:04:46.740 --> 01:04:50.900
<v Audience>working towards a lasting solution to that problem.

1172
01:04:51.120 --> 01:04:53.520
<v Audience>So there are good examples if we look for them.

1173
01:04:54.820 --> 01:04:58.160
<v Audience>The ideas I suggest might be worth thinking about

1174
01:04:58.160 --> 01:05:02.100
<v Audience>in terms of primary health are

1175
01:05:03.180 --> 01:05:04.880
<v Audience>there are no vegetable gardens

1176
01:05:04.880 --> 01:05:05.800
<v Audience>in these remote areas.

1177
01:05:05.820 --> 01:05:06.100
<v Audience>There are no communities.

1178
01:05:06.400 --> 01:05:08.360
<v Audience>And yet there's groundwater in every one of them.

1179
01:05:08.440 --> 01:05:10.000
<v Audience>That's the only reason we survive out there.

1180
01:05:12.300 --> 01:05:14.860
<v Audience>The attempts that I made, and I'm a failed gardener,

1181
01:05:15.980 --> 01:05:17.680
<v Audience>to grow a vegetable garden

1182
01:05:17.680 --> 01:05:21.560
<v Audience>in the backyard of where I was staying

1183
01:05:22.000 --> 01:05:24.160
<v Audience>attracted a lot of attention from young children.

1184
01:05:24.420 --> 01:05:26.460
<v Audience>I've yet to meet any young children,

1185
01:05:26.540 --> 01:05:27.900
<v Audience>and I have a four and a six-year-old myself,

1186
01:05:28.400 --> 01:05:31.460
<v Audience>who are not fascinated by growing things.

1187
01:05:32.340 --> 01:05:35.800
<v Audience>And the activity and the energy and the satisfaction

1188
01:05:35.820 --> 01:05:39.520
<v Audience>that one can get from having a vegetable garden

1189
01:05:39.520 --> 01:05:42.460
<v Audience>is going to supplement the stores, which are atrocious.

1190
01:05:43.400 --> 01:05:47.620
<v Audience>I'm treating disease, but the store is manufacturing it.

1191
01:05:48.400 --> 01:05:51.380
<v Audience>There's got to be some very simple solution to that, is there not?

1192
01:05:51.860 --> 01:05:55.320
<v Audience>And I just want to leave you with thoughts that were shared to me

1193
01:05:55.320 --> 01:05:58.120
<v Audience>by Lewis Peachey at a conference last year,

1194
01:05:58.180 --> 01:06:01.020
<v Audience>or a workshop I went to in Townsville.

1195
01:06:01.460 --> 01:06:03.160
<v Audience>And when I was talking to him, he said,

1196
01:06:03.820 --> 01:06:05.460
<v Audience>and I think you would all share this,

1197
01:06:05.820 --> 01:06:08.500
<v Audience>we've got to give the children, firstly, hope.

1198
01:06:09.200 --> 01:06:12.000
<v Audience>When they've got hope, then you give them a vision.

1199
01:06:12.400 --> 01:06:15.400
<v Audience>When they've got hope and a vision, then give them the discipline.

1200
01:06:15.700 --> 01:06:18.800
<v Audience>Little gardens, little small steps

1201
01:06:20.000 --> 01:06:22.120
<v Audience>towards building a healthy community,

1202
01:06:23.280 --> 01:06:26.280
<v Audience>I think will do well

1203
01:06:26.280 --> 01:06:29.460
<v Audience>if we give them a sense that things can be done,

1204
01:06:30.200 --> 01:06:33.200
<v Audience>and if there's little examples where they can get some satisfaction

1205
01:06:33.720 --> 01:06:35.740
<v Audience>to see that they have been able,

1206
01:06:35.820 --> 01:06:41.180
<v Audience>and then training and helping children and the adults

1207
01:06:41.180 --> 01:06:43.860
<v Audience>to learn the discipline of living well.

1208
01:06:44.400 --> 01:06:45.240
<v Robyn McDermott>Thank you.

1209
01:06:48.620 --> 01:06:50.280
<v Robyn McDermott>Anyone want to comment on that?

1210
01:06:51.160 --> 01:06:51.760
<v Robyn McDermott>Yes.

1211
01:06:54.220 --> 01:07:00.140
<v Ngiare Brown>I think that there are a number of other remote communities,

1212
01:07:00.240 --> 01:07:02.580
<v Ngiare Brown>but particularly in the top end, where water is not such an issue,

1213
01:07:02.620 --> 01:07:05.480
<v Ngiare Brown>for example, that do have their market gardens,

1214
01:07:05.820 --> 01:07:09.080
<v Ngiare Brown>that grow vegetables, fruits all year round,

1215
01:07:09.120 --> 01:07:12.720
<v Ngiare Brown>as well as traditional plants for healing and medicinal practice,

1216
01:07:12.900 --> 01:07:13.680
<v Ngiare Brown>for example.

1217
01:07:15.040 --> 01:07:17.860
<v Ngiare Brown>But whether it's, say, a store program,

1218
01:07:18.100 --> 01:07:20.380
<v Ngiare Brown>whether it's gardening for the kids,

1219
01:07:20.520 --> 01:07:22.940
<v Ngiare Brown>whether it's an early childhood development,

1220
01:07:23.680 --> 01:07:26.360
<v Ngiare Brown>or other, say, antenatal care program,

1221
01:07:26.580 --> 01:07:29.900
<v Ngiare Brown>I think the major component in their success

1222
01:07:29.900 --> 01:07:32.540
<v Ngiare Brown>is that they are community-driven and community-owned,

1223
01:07:32.740 --> 01:07:34.700
<v Ngiare Brown>and they can cost very little,

1224
01:07:34.720 --> 01:07:35.800
<v Ngiare Brown>but be very useful.

1225
01:07:35.820 --> 01:07:36.180
<v Ngiare Brown>And I think that's very effective.

1226
01:07:36.360 --> 01:07:39.780
<v Ngiare Brown>But it's just the resourcing and the support of the ideas

1227
01:07:39.780 --> 01:07:41.340
<v Ngiare Brown>that come from the communities themselves,

1228
01:07:41.600 --> 01:07:42.960
<v Ngiare Brown>that can be very effective.

1229
01:07:43.520 --> 01:07:45.840
<v Ngiare Brown>And I've known Lewis for over 20 years,

1230
01:07:45.880 --> 01:07:47.260
<v Ngiare Brown>and that sounds exactly like him.

1231
01:07:48.400 --> 01:07:48.940
<v Fred Chaney>Fred?

1232
01:07:49.280 --> 01:07:52.500
<v Fred Chaney>Look, at risk of sounding negative,

1233
01:07:54.000 --> 01:07:56.780
<v Fred Chaney>I've been around this area for 50 years now,

1234
01:07:57.640 --> 01:08:00.540
<v Fred Chaney>and I'd have to say I've seen lots of horticultural experiments,

1235
01:08:01.920 --> 01:08:03.140
<v Fred Chaney>large and small,

1236
01:08:04.040 --> 01:08:05.460
<v Fred Chaney>and they disappear.

1237
01:08:06.820 --> 01:08:07.480
<v Fred Chaney>They disappear.

1238
01:08:07.820 --> 01:08:09.040
<v Fred Chaney>So the question in my mind,

1239
01:08:09.140 --> 01:08:11.000
<v Fred Chaney>I agree with everything you've said, by the way.

1240
01:08:11.380 --> 01:08:12.840
<v Fred Chaney>The question in my mind is who?

1241
01:08:13.360 --> 01:08:15.260
<v Fred Chaney>Who is supposed to make this happen?

1242
01:08:16.640 --> 01:08:19.500
<v Fred Chaney>And the response, I think, from Ngaire is community-driven,

1243
01:08:20.420 --> 01:08:21.960
<v Fred Chaney>but I'd have to say that a lot of communities

1244
01:08:21.960 --> 01:08:23.280
<v Fred Chaney>for that drive is not coming.

1245
01:08:23.400 --> 01:08:26.000
<v Fred Chaney>So where does it start, and how do you help crank it up?

1246
01:08:26.120 --> 01:08:27.560
<v Fred Chaney>And I think, I'm only saying

1247
01:08:27.560 --> 01:08:29.480
<v Fred Chaney>that I think there are some quite difficult ways

1248
01:08:29.480 --> 01:08:31.700
<v Fred Chaney>of even implementing what seem to you very simple,

1249
01:08:32.380 --> 01:08:35.080
<v Fred Chaney>positive things, and as I say, I think, yes,

1250
01:08:35.080 --> 01:08:39.660
<v Fred Chaney>that that's right, but we've got to make it happen,

1251
01:08:39.800 --> 01:08:41.560
<v Fred Chaney>and that's the hard part.

1252
01:08:42.020 --> 01:08:42.620
<v Fred Chaney>Implementate.

1253
01:08:42.760 --> 01:08:46.520
<v Fred Chaney>At the moment in this area, there is so much good intention

1254
01:08:46.520 --> 01:08:48.100
<v Fred Chaney>around on the part of governments

1255
01:08:48.100 --> 01:08:49.200
<v Fred Chaney>and private corporations.

1256
01:08:49.540 --> 01:08:51.220
<v Fred Chaney>There is so much money around,

1257
01:08:52.660 --> 01:08:55.900
<v Fred Chaney>but implementation is the absolutely critical problem,

1258
01:08:56.820 --> 01:09:00.180
<v Fred Chaney>and implementation is extremely imperfect at the moment,

1259
01:09:00.240 --> 01:09:02.660
<v Fred Chaney>and there's almost no one trained.

1260
01:09:04.120 --> 01:09:05.060
<v Fred Chaney>No white people.

1261
01:09:05.060 --> 01:09:07.580
<v Fred Chaney>No white people being trained to work

1262
01:09:07.580 --> 01:09:08.580
<v Fred Chaney>with Aboriginal communities.

1263
01:09:09.200 --> 01:09:11.040
<v Fred Chaney>Thirty years ago, there was a cadre

1264
01:09:11.040 --> 01:09:17.360
<v Fred Chaney>of very good field officers gone, not replaced.

1265
01:09:19.340 --> 01:09:20.260
<v Fred Chaney>Three, sorry.

1266
01:09:20.420 --> 01:09:22.340
<v Fred Chaney>You had to do three years training to be let loose

1267
01:09:22.340 --> 01:09:23.300
<v Fred Chaney>on an Aboriginal community.

1268
01:09:23.540 --> 01:09:25.120
<v Ngiare Brown>Why can't you train Aboriginal people to work

1269
01:09:25.120 --> 01:09:25.920
<v Ngiare Brown>in Aboriginal communities?

1270
01:09:26.080 --> 01:09:27.820
<v Ngiare Brown>Why do we need white fellows to do this?

1271
01:09:27.820 --> 01:09:28.340
<v Ngiare Brown>Train somebody.

1272
01:09:29.120 --> 01:09:29.920
<v Ngiare Brown>Right, you're on.

1273
01:09:30.060 --> 01:09:30.780
<v Ngiare Brown>Train somebody.

1274
01:09:31.480 --> 01:09:34.860
<v Fran Baum>I think your comment, I think your comments were really,

1275
01:09:35.060 --> 01:09:37.700
<v Fran Baum>really well made, and I think some of the best models

1276
01:09:37.700 --> 01:09:39.800
<v Fran Baum>of community controlled healthcare,

1277
01:09:40.100 --> 01:09:43.420
<v Fran Baum>whether it's within a state funded sector or not,

1278
01:09:43.680 --> 01:09:45.300
<v Fran Baum>would include, you know,

1279
01:09:45.300 --> 01:09:47.500
<v Fran Baum>good primary healthcare would include attention

1280
01:09:47.500 --> 01:09:48.640
<v Fran Baum>to the food supply.

1281
01:09:48.920 --> 01:09:51.420
<v Fran Baum>I think it's also in this conversation worth pointing

1282
01:09:51.420 --> 01:09:53.560
<v Fran Baum>out that by far the majority

1283
01:09:53.560 --> 01:09:55.720
<v Fran Baum>of Aboriginal people actually live in our cities.

1284
01:09:55.940 --> 01:09:59.060
<v Fran Baum>They don't live in remote areas, and I think we have to bear

1285
01:09:59.060 --> 01:10:00.460
<v Fran Baum>that in mind too in this discussion.

1286
01:10:00.780 --> 01:10:01.880
<v Fred Chaney>But the health is worse in remote areas, isn't it?

1287
01:10:02.060 --> 01:10:03.180
<v Fran Baum>Yes, it is.

1288
01:10:03.240 --> 01:10:03.980
<v Fran Baum>Not in the US.

1289
01:10:04.140 --> 01:10:04.660
<v Fred Chaney>Statistically.

1290
01:10:05.060 --> 01:10:06.080
<v Fran Baum>But nonetheless the health of people.

1291
01:10:06.080 --> 01:10:07.460
<v Ngiare Brown>It's still comparable unfortunately.

1292
01:10:08.080 --> 01:10:08.340
<v Ngiare Brown>Sorry?

1293
01:10:08.480 --> 01:10:09.360
<v Ngiare Brown>It's still comparable.

1294
01:10:09.440 --> 01:10:11.020
<v Ngiare Brown>So the outcomes are actually very close.

1295
01:10:11.200 --> 01:10:12.820
<v Fran Baum>The outcome because the health

1296
01:10:12.820 --> 01:10:15.520
<v Fran Baum>of the non-Indigenous is worse in rural areas as well.

1297
01:10:15.520 --> 01:10:17.660
<v Robyn McDermott>Well, we probably shouldn't get into that discussion

1298
01:10:17.660 --> 01:10:22.520
<v Robyn McDermott>because you can quote data for each side of that argument.

1299
01:10:22.660 --> 01:10:26.260
<v Robyn McDermott>But I think statistics do get thrown around a bit loosely.

1300
01:10:26.760 --> 01:10:29.000
<v Robyn McDermott>And the truth is it's not urban.

1301
01:10:29.040 --> 01:10:30.440
<v Robyn McDermott>It's regional and urban.

1302
01:10:30.600 --> 01:10:34.580
<v Robyn McDermott>And so the spread is very wide.

1303
01:10:34.580 --> 01:10:35.440
<v Robyn McDermott>The spread, oh, sorry.

1304
01:10:35.440 --> 01:10:37.420
<v Robyn McDermott>Of Indigenous people in the country.

1305
01:10:37.560 --> 01:10:43.020
<v Robyn McDermott>And still probably concentrated in regional rather than urban centres.

1306
01:10:43.320 --> 01:10:45.280
<v Fran Baum>Now the majority are in our urban cities,

1307
01:10:45.340 --> 01:10:50.020
<v Fran Baum>but there are significant numbers in regional centres and in remote areas.

1308
01:10:50.420 --> 01:10:51.120
<v Robyn McDermott>I agree with that.

1309
01:10:51.160 --> 01:10:59.420
<v Robyn McDermott>I guess however we characterise this, again, I guess the problem that I have is

1310
01:10:59.420 --> 01:11:03.240
<v Robyn McDermott>that always it gets back to this race to be the biggest victim.

1311
01:11:03.240 --> 01:11:05.860
<v Robyn McDermott>You know, we're the sickest ones in the city.

1312
01:11:05.940 --> 01:11:07.280
<v Robyn McDermott>No, we're sicker in the bush.

1313
01:11:07.420 --> 01:11:08.840
<v Robyn McDermott>No, we're sicker in the towns.

1314
01:11:09.040 --> 01:11:11.100
<v Robyn McDermott>Everyone's more neglected than everybody else.

1315
01:11:11.240 --> 01:11:12.300
<v Robyn McDermott>Let's get over it.

1316
01:11:12.460 --> 01:11:14.460
<v Robyn McDermott>It's not a competition you want to win, is it?

1317
01:11:14.520 --> 01:11:19.620
<v Robyn McDermott>Well, there are some interests who actually do want to win that competition.

1318
01:11:19.980 --> 01:11:29.440
<v Robyn McDermott>And so I take it from Fred's call to arms and Ngaire that we need to actually move

1319
01:11:29.440 --> 01:11:32.940
<v Robyn McDermott>on to a different way of having these discussions.

1320
01:11:33.240 --> 01:11:33.440
<v Robyn McDermott>Yes.

1321
01:11:33.680 --> 01:11:38.020
<v Fred Chaney>The Aboriginal Doctors Association sort of work you're doing, Ngaire,

1322
01:11:38.100 --> 01:11:42.120
<v Fred Chaney>the work being led by Tom Karma is absolutely fantastic.

1323
01:11:42.620 --> 01:11:47.680
<v Fred Chaney>I mean, for a white fellow saying I'd like to help, having that to sort of latch onto

1324
01:11:47.680 --> 01:11:51.120
<v Fred Chaney>and to say that's what I'd like to support is just what you want.

1325
01:11:51.600 --> 01:11:54.800
<v Fred Chaney>And I mean, there is some magnificent leadership being shown.

1326
01:11:54.960 --> 01:11:56.740
<v Fred Chaney>I mean, we've got one on the platform here.

1327
01:11:56.940 --> 01:11:59.420
<v Fred Chaney>But Tom Karma is a South Australian, I think, isn't he?

1328
01:11:59.500 --> 01:12:00.480
<v Fred Chaney>Or is he from Northern Territory?

1329
01:12:00.560 --> 01:12:00.840
<v Ngiare Brown>No, he's from Darwin.

1330
01:12:01.060 --> 01:12:01.400
<v Ngiare Brown>Is he?

1331
01:12:01.540 --> 01:12:03.200
<v Ngiare Brown>Oh, he'd be mortified to hear you say that.

1332
01:12:03.240 --> 01:12:06.060
<v Fred Chaney>I've actually accused him of being Adnumatna or something.

1333
01:12:06.640 --> 01:12:07.340
<v Fred Chaney>But I mean.

1334
01:12:07.540 --> 01:12:08.700
<v Robyn McDermott>He can be from more than one place.

1335
01:12:08.740 --> 01:12:13.240
<v Fred Chaney>I think when you look at the hundreds of communities that you're dealing with,

1336
01:12:13.320 --> 01:12:17.280
<v Fred Chaney>including in the suburbs of Sydney and Melbourne and Brisbane, and I agree with Fran,

1337
01:12:17.500 --> 01:12:22.380
<v Fred Chaney>the majority, the largest number, there are 27,000 Noongars in the southwest

1338
01:12:22.380 --> 01:12:26.560
<v Fred Chaney>of Western Australia as against a couple of thousand people in the Western Desert.

1339
01:12:26.700 --> 01:12:28.480
<v Fred Chaney>So, you know, they're the sort of numbers.

1340
01:12:30.120 --> 01:12:32.920
<v Fred Chaney>But without strong indigenous leadership,

1341
01:12:33.240 --> 01:12:37.300
<v Fred Chaney>then we meddling white guys are capable of doing a lot of harm as well.

1342
01:12:37.540 --> 01:12:41.780
<v Fred Chaney>So, you know, I think the Aboriginal side of it, and if Nairi says you can train people

1343
01:12:41.780 --> 01:12:43.660
<v Fred Chaney>up to lead these things, then let's do it.

1344
01:12:43.760 --> 01:12:44.660
<v Fred Chaney>That's the way to go.

1345
01:12:46.820 --> 01:12:48.020
<v Robyn McDermott>What's the best way, Fred?

1346
01:12:48.520 --> 01:12:48.920
<v Robyn McDermott>Government?

1347
01:12:49.480 --> 01:12:49.880
<v Robyn McDermott>Industry?

1348
01:12:50.260 --> 01:12:50.680
<v Robyn McDermott>We've got two more questions, though.

1349
01:12:51.140 --> 01:12:52.780
<v Robyn McDermott>Oh, we have two questions.

1350
01:12:53.020 --> 01:12:53.420
<v Robyn McDermott>Please.

1351
01:12:54.080 --> 01:12:55.820
<v Robyn McDermott>She's been blinded by the lights.

1352
01:12:55.980 --> 01:12:56.340
<v Speaker 6>I am.

1353
01:12:57.340 --> 01:12:58.320
<v Robyn McDermott>Please say your name.

1354
01:12:58.900 --> 01:12:59.460
<v Speaker 6>Oh, yeah.

1355
01:12:59.500 --> 01:13:00.920
<v Speaker 6>Hi. I'm Priya Kitchener.

1356
01:13:00.920 --> 01:13:02.120
<v Speaker 6>I'm from Tasmania.

1357
01:13:02.820 --> 01:13:03.220
<v Speaker 6>I'd like to ask you a question.

1358
01:13:03.240 --> 01:13:04.040
<v Speaker 6>At the moment I'm living there.

1359
01:13:04.540 --> 01:13:07.940
<v Speaker 6>But I have spent a lot of my life in Cairns, in far north Queensland.

1360
01:13:09.020 --> 01:13:12.960
<v Speaker 6>And when I was growing up in Cairns, the Aboriginal problems

1361
01:13:12.960 --> 01:13:17.060
<v Speaker 6>and issues were quite bleak and quite in your face.

1362
01:13:17.160 --> 01:13:20.420
<v Speaker 6>You know, in the public school system it was very much there.

1363
01:13:20.600 --> 01:13:24.420
<v Speaker 6>And also my parents worked a bit in that field.

1364
01:13:24.540 --> 01:13:28.720
<v Speaker 6>And there's a mission which used to be, I think, a Catholic mission,

1365
01:13:28.820 --> 01:13:32.060
<v Speaker 6>but is now a government mission in the mountains

1366
01:13:32.060 --> 01:13:33.220
<v Speaker 6>around the outside of Tasmania.

1367
01:13:35.000 --> 01:13:35.600
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1368
01:13:36.000 --> 01:13:36.400
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1369
01:13:36.460 --> 01:13:36.800
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1370
01:13:39.360 --> 01:13:39.960
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1371
01:13:40.480 --> 01:13:40.960
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1372
01:13:41.340 --> 01:13:42.540
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1373
01:13:42.540 --> 01:13:43.040
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1374
01:13:43.040 --> 01:13:43.900
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1375
01:13:43.900 --> 01:13:45.420
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1376
01:13:45.420 --> 01:13:45.860
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1377
01:13:45.980 --> 01:13:46.260
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1378
01:13:46.260 --> 01:13:47.280
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1379
01:13:47.280 --> 01:13:47.740
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1380
01:13:47.840 --> 01:13:48.720
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1381
01:13:49.160 --> 01:13:50.300
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1382
01:13:50.300 --> 01:13:50.780
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1383
01:13:50.780 --> 01:13:51.500
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1384
01:13:52.040 --> 01:13:52.640
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1385
01:13:52.640 --> 01:13:53.000
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1386
01:13:53.400 --> 01:13:53.760
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1387
01:13:53.760 --> 01:13:53.960
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1388
01:13:53.960 --> 01:13:54.020
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1389
01:13:54.020 --> 01:13:54.060
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1390
01:13:54.060 --> 01:13:54.580
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1391
01:13:54.680 --> 01:13:55.240
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1392
01:13:55.300 --> 01:13:56.080
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1393
01:13:56.080 --> 01:13:56.340
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1394
01:13:56.600 --> 01:13:57.520
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1395
01:14:00.120 --> 01:14:00.980
<v Speaker 6>Something like that.

1396
01:14:00.980 --> 01:14:02.560
<v Speaker 6>Oh, it must be a horrible life to lead.

1397
01:14:02.640 --> 01:14:05.300
<v Speaker 6>And my piano teacher actually lived quite near there

1398
01:14:05.300 --> 01:14:07.160
<v Speaker 6>and she used to go out there quite often

1399
01:14:07.160 --> 01:14:08.540
<v Speaker 6>to play the organ in the funerals.

1400
01:14:10.700 --> 01:14:12.760
<v Speaker 6>But then we moved to Tasmania

1401
01:14:12.760 --> 01:14:15.720
<v Speaker 6>and it's quite the opposite situation in Tasmania.

1402
01:14:15.800 --> 01:14:17.760
<v Speaker 6>There are no Aboriginal people at all

1403
01:14:17.760 --> 01:14:19.400
<v Speaker 6>because they've all gone.

1404
01:14:20.840 --> 01:14:22.760
<v Speaker 6>Michael Mansel, I think...

1405
01:14:22.760 --> 01:14:23.660
<v Speaker 6>That is a very dangerous statement.

1406
01:14:24.240 --> 01:14:25.600
<v Robyn McDermott>There'd be a dispute about that.

1407
01:14:26.260 --> 01:14:28.300
<v Speaker 6>Well, pretty much, I mean,

1408
01:14:28.320 --> 01:14:30.720
<v Speaker 6>there aren't any black Aboriginal people there.

1409
01:14:30.720 --> 01:14:31.720
<v Speaker 6>They're either...

1410
01:14:31.720 --> 01:14:34.700
<v Speaker 6>The last population of Aboriginal people, supposedly,

1411
01:14:34.700 --> 01:14:38.300
<v Speaker 6>was transported to Flinders Island and there they died.

1412
01:14:38.500 --> 01:14:39.960
<v Robyn McDermott>Did you have a question?

1413
01:14:40.180 --> 01:14:40.680
<v Robyn McDermott>I'll be good.

1414
01:14:41.400 --> 01:14:41.840
<v Robyn McDermott>OK.

1415
01:14:43.260 --> 01:14:45.440
<v Speaker 6>All right, so there is an Aboriginal population there.

1416
01:14:45.480 --> 01:14:45.720
<v Speaker 6>I'm sorry.

1417
01:14:45.940 --> 01:14:47.080
<v Speaker 6>Did you have a question?

1418
01:14:47.300 --> 01:14:47.940
<v Speaker 6>Yes, I did.

1419
01:14:49.580 --> 01:14:52.280
<v Speaker 6>What's up with these missions such as Yarrabah,

1420
01:14:52.320 --> 01:14:54.540
<v Speaker 6>which don't effectively seem to be doing anything constructive?

1421
01:14:55.920 --> 01:14:59.180
<v Speaker 6>Is there any plan for them to be closed down or...?

1422
01:15:00.720 --> 01:15:01.220
<v Speaker 6>Improved?

1423
01:15:01.300 --> 01:15:04.380
<v Robyn McDermott>I think that might take too long to respond to that one

1424
01:15:04.380 --> 01:15:06.700
<v Robyn McDermott>unless someone wants to have a quick response.

1425
01:15:06.800 --> 01:15:08.920
<v Fran Baum>I would say Yarrabah has what has been upheld

1426
01:15:08.920 --> 01:15:11.520
<v Fran Baum>as the most model suicide prevention program

1427
01:15:11.520 --> 01:15:13.360
<v Fran Baum>that's been publicised internationally

1428
01:15:13.360 --> 01:15:16.520
<v Fran Baum>because of the good work that the community itself's done

1429
01:15:16.520 --> 01:15:20.200
<v Fran Baum>where they've absolutely reduced their suicide rate considerably

1430
01:15:20.200 --> 01:15:23.140
<v Fran Baum>and it's being looked at by people around the world.

1431
01:15:23.420 --> 01:15:25.740
<v Fran Baum>So Yarrabah's story may have turned around,

1432
01:15:25.940 --> 01:15:27.060
<v Fran Baum>which is a good news story.

1433
01:15:27.320 --> 01:15:29.120
<v Fred Chaney>I think there must be two Yarrabahs

1434
01:15:29.120 --> 01:15:30.380
<v Fred Chaney>because Yarrabah, as I remember it,

1435
01:15:30.380 --> 01:15:31.520
<v Fred Chaney>is the most beautiful place.

1436
01:15:31.700 --> 01:15:32.200
<v Fred Chaney>I was going to say that too.

1437
01:15:32.200 --> 01:15:33.480
<v Fred Chaney>Around, tucked behind the mountain,

1438
01:15:33.580 --> 01:15:35.060
<v Fred Chaney>behind, around from Cairns.

1439
01:15:35.300 --> 01:15:36.340
<v Fred Chaney>And you're quite right,

1440
01:15:36.400 --> 01:15:38.080
<v Fred Chaney>it has had some really serious problems.

1441
01:15:38.220 --> 01:15:42.460
<v Fred Chaney>But I still remember with great fondness Percy Neill,

1442
01:15:42.580 --> 01:15:43.560
<v Fred Chaney>who's still a leader there,

1443
01:15:43.700 --> 01:15:45.500
<v Fred Chaney>who is one of the people who taught me

1444
01:15:45.500 --> 01:15:46.820
<v Fred Chaney>the point that I made earlier.

1445
01:15:47.160 --> 01:15:48.280
<v Fred Chaney>Because he's the one who said,

1446
01:15:48.340 --> 01:15:50.540
<v Fred Chaney>give us our land and all our problems will be solved.

1447
01:15:51.340 --> 01:15:54.240
<v Fred Chaney>Percy has continued to work his backside off,

1448
01:15:54.360 --> 01:15:55.760
<v Fred Chaney>as have a lot of the people at Yarrabah.

1449
01:15:55.880 --> 01:15:57.180
<v Fred Chaney>And Fran's drawn attention

1450
01:15:57.180 --> 01:15:58.720
<v Fred Chaney>to one of the really good things they've done.

1451
01:15:59.000 --> 01:16:00.060
<v Fred Chaney>And they are, I think,

1452
01:16:00.060 --> 01:16:01.020
<v Fred Chaney>at a very advanced stage

1453
01:16:01.020 --> 01:16:02.980
<v Fred Chaney>of getting proper title to their land.

1454
01:16:03.300 --> 01:16:05.020
<v Fred Chaney>And I would be very sad

1455
01:16:05.020 --> 01:16:07.560
<v Fred Chaney>if Yarrabah ceased to be an Aboriginal community.

1456
01:16:07.800 --> 01:16:11.240
<v Fred Chaney>I would hope they'd have more good fortune than they've had.

1457
01:16:11.300 --> 01:16:14.040
<v Fred Chaney>But I think you're seeing them

1458
01:16:14.040 --> 01:16:16.500
<v Fred Chaney>through a funny set of lenses, actually.

1459
01:16:17.040 --> 01:16:19.100
<v Ngiare Brown>No plans to close Yarrabah.

1460
01:16:19.220 --> 01:16:20.900
<v Ngiare Brown>In fact, they've made significant

1461
01:16:20.900 --> 01:16:23.000
<v Ngiare Brown>and amazing change in the last decade.

1462
01:16:23.300 --> 01:16:24.840
<v Ngiare Brown>And so whilst there have been

1463
01:16:24.840 --> 01:16:26.460
<v Ngiare Brown>significant problems in the past,

1464
01:16:26.640 --> 01:16:28.900
<v Ngiare Brown>the community has actually owned those problems

1465
01:16:28.900 --> 01:16:30.020
<v Ngiare Brown>and owned the solutions.

1466
01:16:30.060 --> 01:16:31.580
<v Ngiare Brown>And you can see the proof

1467
01:16:31.580 --> 01:16:32.940
<v Ngiare Brown>in some of their model programs.

1468
01:16:33.300 --> 01:16:35.200
<v Robyn McDermott>I'd actually reiterate that

1469
01:16:35.200 --> 01:16:39.360
<v Robyn McDermott>I've always enjoyed my road trip to Yarrabah.

1470
01:16:39.500 --> 01:16:43.360
<v Robyn McDermott>And it's full of talented and energetic people.

1471
01:16:43.520 --> 01:16:45.820
<v Robyn McDermott>So there must be two Yarrabahs.

1472
01:16:45.860 --> 01:16:46.420
<v Robyn McDermott>Can I just...

1473
01:16:46.420 --> 01:16:48.420
<v Ngiare Brown>This is a gentle comment from me, Darl.

1474
01:16:48.480 --> 01:16:49.900
<v Ngiare Brown>So it's been a while

1475
01:16:49.900 --> 01:16:51.960
<v Ngiare Brown>since they actually judged Aboriginal people,

1476
01:16:52.540 --> 01:16:54.420
<v Ngiare Brown>Aboriginality, on the colour of our skin.

1477
01:16:54.720 --> 01:16:56.520
<v Ngiare Brown>It's actually about our connectedness

1478
01:16:56.520 --> 01:16:57.800
<v Ngiare Brown>and our belonging to community.

1479
01:16:57.960 --> 01:16:59.900
<v Ngiare Brown>And so you can be as pale as me,

1480
01:17:00.060 --> 01:17:02.040
<v Ngiare Brown>or you can be black as night, Sweaty.

1481
01:17:02.140 --> 01:17:03.540
<v Ngiare Brown>My heart's really black, actually.

1482
01:17:03.600 --> 01:17:04.620
<v Ngiare Brown>It's small and shriveled and black.

1483
01:17:05.460 --> 01:17:08.220
<v Ngiare Brown>But I'm still as Aboriginal as the next person

1484
01:17:08.220 --> 01:17:10.720
<v Ngiare Brown>because it's actually about how I belong,

1485
01:17:10.860 --> 01:17:11.900
<v Ngiare Brown>how I've been raised,

1486
01:17:12.080 --> 01:17:14.360
<v Ngiare Brown>and my cultural connectedness and continuity.

1487
01:17:15.540 --> 01:17:17.780
<v Fred Chaney>My favourite response to the point you made

1488
01:17:17.780 --> 01:17:19.700
<v Fred Chaney>is I've heard from a lot of Aboriginal people

1489
01:17:19.700 --> 01:17:19.920
<v Fred Chaney>who say,

1490
01:17:20.020 --> 01:17:21.680
<v Fred Chaney>oh, you're part Aboriginal, are you?

1491
01:17:21.700 --> 01:17:23.280
<v Fred Chaney>And they say, oh, which part do you think?

1492
01:17:23.580 --> 01:17:24.460
<v Ngiare Brown>Show them my bum.

1493
01:17:25.820 --> 01:17:28.280
<v Robyn McDermott>In fact, an Aboriginal friend of mine

1494
01:17:28.280 --> 01:17:29.900
<v Robyn McDermott>routinely goes back to,

1495
01:17:30.060 --> 01:17:32.100
<v Robyn McDermott>I think, Ireland to rediscover her Irish roots.

1496
01:17:32.480 --> 01:17:36.380
<v Robyn McDermott>So the truth is we're all from somewhere.

1497
01:17:37.440 --> 01:17:38.700
<v Robyn McDermott>Yes, next question.

1498
01:17:38.900 --> 01:17:40.400
<v Audience>My name's Paul Rowland.

1499
01:17:40.700 --> 01:17:42.000
<v Audience>It's really a comment, I'm afraid.

1500
01:17:42.440 --> 01:17:45.260
<v Audience>A fundamental human driver is the pursuit of happiness.

1501
01:17:45.420 --> 01:17:47.220
<v Audience>But I don't have any country in the world

1502
01:17:47.220 --> 01:17:48.940
<v Audience>that has a Minister of Happiness

1503
01:17:48.940 --> 01:17:51.020
<v Audience>or a university chair in happiness.

1504
01:17:51.260 --> 01:17:54.540
<v Audience>What we do have is we pursue it by surrogates.

1505
01:17:54.580 --> 01:17:55.920
<v Audience>We have health.

1506
01:17:56.380 --> 01:17:59.940
<v Audience>And we believe that life expectancy is some surrogate,

1507
01:17:59.940 --> 01:18:00.040
<v Audience>right?

1508
01:18:00.040 --> 01:18:00.160
<v Audience>We have a surrogate for happiness,

1509
01:18:00.400 --> 01:18:02.240
<v Audience>but people have long and miserable lives.

1510
01:18:02.600 --> 01:18:06.200
<v Audience>The economists have looked at GDP as a surrogate for happiness.

1511
01:18:06.360 --> 01:18:08.280
<v Audience>But again, as Fran's work has shown indirectly,

1512
01:18:09.920 --> 01:18:13.040
<v Audience>global average wealth is not a very good indicator

1513
01:18:13.040 --> 01:18:14.220
<v Audience>of either health or happiness.

1514
01:18:14.340 --> 01:18:17.640
<v Audience>But what really does seem to determine happiness is equality.

1515
01:18:18.140 --> 01:18:21.120
<v Audience>And the two most equal parts, two parts of the world

1516
01:18:21.120 --> 01:18:23.740
<v Audience>with the greatest equality and the greatest happiness

1517
01:18:23.740 --> 01:18:27.200
<v Audience>are both in Scandinavia and it's on the Polynesian Islands,

1518
01:18:27.800 --> 01:18:29.820
<v Audience>where basically everyone has much the same.

1519
01:18:29.820 --> 01:18:32.720
<v Audience>One through taxation and one perhaps there isn't very much.

1520
01:18:33.180 --> 01:18:35.500
<v Audience>So if we're coming to look at really the issues

1521
01:18:35.500 --> 01:18:38.760
<v Audience>of Aboriginal health, it comes back to we should be looking

1522
01:18:38.760 --> 01:18:41.480
<v Audience>at happiness, not health, because if people are happy,

1523
01:18:41.580 --> 01:18:43.080
<v Audience>they'll be healthy.

1524
01:18:43.960 --> 01:18:46.800
<v Audience>And this actually matters to all of us in the nation.

1525
01:18:47.000 --> 01:18:48.520
<v Audience>Because on the one hand you say why is it important?

1526
01:18:48.860 --> 01:18:51.620
<v Audience>Why is it important for me as a white city dwelling person

1527
01:18:52.280 --> 01:18:53.520
<v Audience>for Aboriginal people to be healthy?

1528
01:18:53.840 --> 01:18:57.160
<v Audience>Because for all of us, for everyone in this nation,

1529
01:18:57.240 --> 01:18:59.220
<v Audience>it matters to us that we live in an equal society.

1530
01:18:59.820 --> 01:19:05.440
<v Audience>Because the welfare of those less accessible to the tools

1531
01:19:05.440 --> 01:19:08.640
<v Audience>of happiness actually erodes the happiness of all the rest of us.

1532
01:19:08.800 --> 01:19:12.880
<v Audience>So I think it is not just a moral imperative why we need

1533
01:19:12.880 --> 01:19:16.320
<v Audience>to look after the health and happiness of Aboriginal people

1534
01:19:16.320 --> 01:19:18.780
<v Audience>and hopefully learn something from them as well,

1535
01:19:18.860 --> 01:19:21.920
<v Audience>but actually it's an imperative for all of us through self-interest.

1536
01:19:22.240 --> 01:19:25.460
<v Audience>And I think, and I just say I'm very pleased to have heard Fran's work,

1537
01:19:25.520 --> 01:19:29.480
<v Audience>which is again supported, that equality is one of the most important things

1538
01:19:29.480 --> 01:19:29.800
<v Audience>for happiness.

1539
01:19:29.800 --> 01:19:32.460
<v Audience>And health and all those other things will follow subsequently.

1540
01:19:33.100 --> 01:19:33.740
<v Robyn McDermott>Thank you.

1541
01:19:33.880 --> 01:19:36.140
<v Robyn McDermott>You can still be happy and get swine fever.

1542
01:19:37.240 --> 01:19:38.040
<v Fran Baum>You can.

1543
01:19:38.120 --> 01:19:38.580
<v Fran Baum>And remember.

1544
01:19:38.580 --> 01:19:39.680
<v Fran Baum>Indeed, but you do it happily.

1545
01:19:39.800 --> 01:19:42.320
<v Fran Baum>All of us will die in the end whether we've been happy or not.

1546
01:19:42.420 --> 01:19:46.360
<v Fran Baum>But I just think it's worth pointing out that Bhutan actually does use

1547
01:19:46.360 --> 01:19:51.020
<v Fran Baum>as a measure of its national progress the gross national happiness or,

1548
01:19:51.060 --> 01:19:52.280
<v Fran Baum>you know, index.

1549
01:19:52.520 --> 01:19:55.760
<v Fran Baum>And the King of Bhutan says that that's how they have

1550
01:19:55.760 --> 01:19:58.480
<v Fran Baum>to judge their progress, which I think is quite interesting.

1551
01:19:58.480 --> 01:19:59.780
<v Fran Baum>I want to be the Minister for Happiness.

1552
01:19:59.800 --> 01:20:00.000
<v Ngiare Brown>Yeah.

1553
01:20:00.880 --> 01:20:05.000
<v Fran Baum>Well, there is now a whole number of economists also writing

1554
01:20:05.000 --> 01:20:08.780
<v Fran Baum>about happiness, particularly Richard Layard in the UK,

1555
01:20:10.120 --> 01:20:13.800
<v Fran Baum>and really saying that somehow we've lost the plot

1556
01:20:13.800 --> 01:20:15.180
<v Fran Baum>with a lot of our development.

1557
01:20:15.460 --> 01:20:18.420
<v Fran Baum>And I sometimes think that with my Aboriginal friends

1558
01:20:19.200 --> 01:20:21.400
<v Fran Baum>and colleagues that often you guys are good at happiness.

1559
01:20:21.880 --> 01:20:23.940
<v Fran Baum>You know, I'm serious about that.

1560
01:20:24.000 --> 01:20:25.100
<v Ngiare Brown>I'm not saying that glibly.

1561
01:20:25.260 --> 01:20:26.280
<v Ngiare Brown>It's a coping mechanism.

1562
01:20:26.480 --> 01:20:29.360
<v Speaker 8>Well, it probably is, but I mean, when you go to,

1563
01:20:29.380 --> 01:20:29.780
<v Fran Baum>I mean, I'm not saying that.

1564
01:20:32.300 --> 01:20:33.660
<v Fran Baum>Something's simply

1565
01:20:59.780 --> 01:21:01.380
<v Fred Chaney>with her informants.

1566
01:21:01.480 --> 01:21:03.380
<v Fred Chaney>And I think of all the white people I know,

1567
01:21:03.500 --> 01:21:05.340
<v Fred Chaney>she's given me the best window

1568
01:21:05.340 --> 01:21:07.400
<v Fred Chaney>into what Aboriginal people see

1569
01:21:07.400 --> 01:21:09.220
<v Fred Chaney>as the real positives of their own society.

1570
01:21:11.100 --> 01:21:12.220
<v Speaker 8>Ruth Campbell.

1571
01:21:12.420 --> 01:21:14.780
<v Speaker 8>I'm a graduate student in public health

1572
01:21:14.780 --> 01:21:15.680
<v Speaker 8>at Flinders University.

1573
01:21:16.240 --> 01:21:18.060
<v Speaker 8>But in a previous incarnation,

1574
01:21:18.880 --> 01:21:22.000
<v Speaker 8>I was a community rehabilitation worker

1575
01:21:22.000 --> 01:21:24.340
<v Speaker 8>in a range of different communities,

1576
01:21:24.480 --> 01:21:25.400
<v Speaker 8>none of them Aboriginal.

1577
01:21:28.620 --> 01:21:31.840
<v Speaker 8>And we've talked a lot about both health services

1578
01:21:31.840 --> 01:21:33.360
<v Speaker 8>and education services.

1579
01:21:34.060 --> 01:21:36.960
<v Speaker 8>In the Australian community at the moment,

1580
01:21:37.020 --> 01:21:40.820
<v Speaker 8>there is a strong tendency to focus on the concept

1581
01:21:40.820 --> 01:21:44.120
<v Speaker 8>that private sector does this stuff

1582
01:21:44.120 --> 01:21:45.660
<v Speaker 8>better than public sector.

1583
01:21:45.880 --> 01:21:49.160
<v Speaker 8>So that people who have aspirations

1584
01:21:49.160 --> 01:21:52.340
<v Speaker 8>for their children in an urban community

1585
01:21:52.340 --> 01:21:55.160
<v Speaker 8>will tend to try and get their kids

1586
01:21:55.160 --> 01:21:55.380
<v Speaker 8>into the public sector.

1587
01:21:55.400 --> 01:21:59.500
<v Speaker 8>Private schools at inordinate cost in some cases.

1588
01:22:01.040 --> 01:22:03.960
<v Speaker 8>As we just had the short spat about

1589
01:22:03.960 --> 01:22:06.000
<v Speaker 8>the fact that Aboriginal people

1590
01:22:06.000 --> 01:22:08.820
<v Speaker 8>are both remote communities,

1591
01:22:09.060 --> 01:22:09.900
<v Speaker 8>which are very visible,

1592
01:22:10.040 --> 01:22:16.200
<v Speaker 8>but also rural and urban dwelling people.

1593
01:22:16.540 --> 01:22:20.140
<v Speaker 8>It seems to me that because they tend to be

1594
01:22:20.140 --> 01:22:21.740
<v Speaker 8>at the bottom end of the social gradient,

1595
01:22:22.120 --> 01:22:24.560
<v Speaker 8>there is a tendency for them

1596
01:22:24.560 --> 01:22:25.380
<v Speaker 8>to be forced into the public sector.

1597
01:22:25.380 --> 01:22:25.460
<v Speaker 8>And so there are a lot of people

1598
01:22:25.460 --> 01:22:27.380
<v Speaker 8>who are forced into these public sector services,

1599
01:22:27.640 --> 01:22:30.640
<v Speaker 8>which because they're not being considered

1600
01:22:30.640 --> 01:22:33.380
<v Speaker 8>as being effective or good quality services,

1601
01:22:33.920 --> 01:22:35.640
<v Speaker 8>are actually getting worse.

1602
01:22:35.840 --> 01:22:38.720
<v Speaker 8>So Elizabeth High School is a really crap high school

1603
01:22:38.720 --> 01:22:40.360
<v Speaker 8>to go to, whether you're black or white.

1604
01:22:40.560 --> 01:22:42.320
<v Speaker 8>But there are a lot of Aboriginal people

1605
01:22:42.320 --> 01:22:44.340
<v Speaker 8>who have no option but to go to those

1606
01:22:45.220 --> 01:22:46.560
<v Speaker 8>poorer high schools

1607
01:22:46.560 --> 01:22:48.640
<v Speaker 8>and use the poorer medical services

1608
01:22:48.640 --> 01:22:53.780
<v Speaker 8>of the more remote parts of the urban community

1609
01:22:53.780 --> 01:22:55.360
<v Speaker 8>and the rural communities.

1610
01:22:55.380 --> 01:22:58.560
<v Speaker 8>Would the three people like to comment on

1611
01:22:59.600 --> 01:23:03.040
<v Speaker 8>that being forced into the public sector,

1612
01:23:03.140 --> 01:23:04.640
<v Speaker 8>which is being degraded?

1613
01:23:07.480 --> 01:23:10.420
<v Fran Baum>Well, I mean, I feel very passionately

1614
01:23:10.420 --> 01:23:12.980
<v Fran Baum>about public education and the right to it.

1615
01:23:13.520 --> 01:23:16.920
<v Fran Baum>I still am the only person in my family

1616
01:23:16.920 --> 01:23:19.200
<v Fran Baum>who has finished high school.

1617
01:23:19.760 --> 01:23:22.100
<v Fran Baum>And the only reason I had opportunities

1618
01:23:22.100 --> 01:23:24.440
<v Fran Baum>was because I was brought up in Britain

1619
01:23:24.440 --> 01:23:25.360
<v Fran Baum>in the early 90s.

1620
01:23:25.380 --> 01:23:27.440
<v Fran Baum>The 1960s, I suppose it was.

1621
01:23:27.600 --> 01:23:31.340
<v Fran Baum>And I not only, then in the 1970s,

1622
01:23:31.340 --> 01:23:32.180
<v Fran Baum>I went to university.

1623
01:23:32.200 --> 01:23:34.480
<v Fran Baum>And it was very much about having that vision

1624
01:23:34.480 --> 01:23:35.440
<v Fran Baum>that you could do it,

1625
01:23:35.480 --> 01:23:37.020
<v Fran Baum>because my mum thought I should get out

1626
01:23:37.020 --> 01:23:37.900
<v Fran Baum>and earn some money.

1627
01:23:38.100 --> 01:23:39.120
<v Fran Baum>You know, what were you doing,

1628
01:23:39.140 --> 01:23:40.980
<v Fran Baum>wasting your time going to a university?

1629
01:23:41.240 --> 01:23:42.260
<v Fran Baum>It was a waste of time.

1630
01:23:43.400 --> 01:23:46.120
<v Fran Baum>And the only reason I could go to university

1631
01:23:46.120 --> 01:23:47.700
<v Fran Baum>was because then in Britain,

1632
01:23:47.780 --> 01:23:50.620
<v Fran Baum>your local authority paid your fees.

1633
01:23:51.020 --> 01:23:52.940
<v Fran Baum>And well, education was free,

1634
01:23:53.040 --> 01:23:54.660
<v Fran Baum>but they actually paid you a grant

1635
01:23:54.660 --> 01:23:55.740
<v Fran Baum>to go to university.

1636
01:23:56.040 --> 01:23:58.240
<v Fran Baum>So I wasn't reliant on my parents

1637
01:23:58.240 --> 01:23:59.940
<v Fran Baum>and I was able to go to university.

1638
01:24:00.580 --> 01:24:03.300
<v Fran Baum>Otherwise, I probably wouldn't have gone to university.

1639
01:24:03.460 --> 01:24:05.700
<v Fran Baum>So I feel absolutely passionately

1640
01:24:05.700 --> 01:24:08.240
<v Fran Baum>that we should give people opportunities

1641
01:24:08.240 --> 01:24:09.840
<v Fran Baum>and make that possible.

1642
01:24:10.280 --> 01:24:12.680
<v Fran Baum>And I think it is so sad

1643
01:24:12.680 --> 01:24:14.700
<v Fran Baum>that our public schools are being run down

1644
01:24:14.700 --> 01:24:16.560
<v Fran Baum>in the way that you've described, Ruth.

1645
01:24:16.720 --> 01:24:17.920
<v Fran Baum>I mean, I think now,

1646
01:24:18.060 --> 01:24:21.120
<v Fran Baum>one great thing that I think the current government's done

1647
01:24:21.120 --> 01:24:23.400
<v Fran Baum>is a big building program for our schools.

1648
01:24:23.520 --> 01:24:24.340
<v Fran Baum>And I hope that that,

1649
01:24:24.340 --> 01:24:26.220
<v Fran Baum>because, you know, when you pass public schools

1650
01:24:26.220 --> 01:24:27.680
<v Fran Baum>and you can see that the last time

1651
01:24:27.680 --> 01:24:29.060
<v Fran Baum>anyone gave a damn about them

1652
01:24:29.060 --> 01:24:31.580
<v Fran Baum>was probably the 70s and possibly the 80s,

1653
01:24:31.600 --> 01:24:32.940
<v Fran Baum>but not since then.

1654
01:24:33.040 --> 01:24:34.920
<v Fran Baum>And I think that's really kind of sad.

1655
01:24:35.440 --> 01:24:35.920
<v Fran Baum>Nairi?

1656
01:24:36.040 --> 01:24:36.900
<v Fran Baum>Oh, sorry.

1657
01:24:37.100 --> 01:24:38.440
<v Robyn McDermott>Fred, then Nairi.

1658
01:24:38.520 --> 01:24:40.140
<v Fred Chaney>Look, there's a current fashion at the moment

1659
01:24:40.140 --> 01:24:42.540
<v Fred Chaney>to encourage Aboriginal children into boarding schools.

1660
01:24:42.940 --> 01:24:44.840
<v Fred Chaney>And people are putting big money into that,

1661
01:24:44.920 --> 01:24:47.220
<v Fred Chaney>both private donors and mining companies.

1662
01:24:47.760 --> 01:24:50.260
<v Fred Chaney>The reason I work with state schools

1663
01:24:50.260 --> 01:24:52.680
<v Fred Chaney>is that the fact of the matter

1664
01:24:52.680 --> 01:24:54.100
<v Fred Chaney>is the bulk of Aboriginal children,

1665
01:24:54.100 --> 01:24:56.220
<v Fred Chaney>will receive their education in the state schools.

1666
01:24:56.400 --> 01:24:57.260
<v Fred Chaney>And if they're not working,

1667
01:24:57.500 --> 01:24:58.880
<v Fred Chaney>then in 30 years' time,

1668
01:24:59.000 --> 01:25:00.780
<v Fred Chaney>we'll be having this same conversation.

1669
01:25:01.420 --> 01:25:04.340
<v Fred Chaney>I think the quality of teaching

1670
01:25:04.340 --> 01:25:05.840
<v Fred Chaney>delivered in state schools

1671
01:25:05.840 --> 01:25:07.600
<v Fred Chaney>is absolutely central to this.

1672
01:25:08.020 --> 01:25:12.240
<v Fred Chaney>I think there are few champions of public schools.

1673
01:25:13.180 --> 01:25:13.280
<v Fred Chaney>Few.

1674
01:25:13.500 --> 01:25:17.400
<v Fred Chaney>I've actually at times felt quite bemused

1675
01:25:17.400 --> 01:25:19.980
<v Fred Chaney>about how few people are who passionately believe

1676
01:25:19.980 --> 01:25:22.740
<v Fred Chaney>that we must strengthen the government school system.

1677
01:25:22.740 --> 01:25:26.560
<v Fred Chaney>And if you have a belief in equal opportunity,

1678
01:25:26.780 --> 01:25:28.040
<v Fred Chaney>then this is a scandal.

1679
01:25:29.320 --> 01:25:32.440
<v Fred Chaney>So my own view is very much in accord with your own.

1680
01:25:32.480 --> 01:25:33.920
<v Fred Chaney>As far as the mining companies are concerned,

1681
01:25:34.760 --> 01:25:37.800
<v Fred Chaney>as feisty a spokesperson for Aboriginal people

1682
01:25:38.540 --> 01:25:41.300
<v Fred Chaney>as Marcia Langton has certainly been reported as saying

1683
01:25:41.300 --> 01:25:43.740
<v Fred Chaney>that she'd much rather work with mining companies than government

1684
01:25:44.500 --> 01:25:46.160
<v Fred Chaney>because it's so much more responsive.

1685
01:25:46.980 --> 01:25:49.540
<v Fred Chaney>So I'd have to say a good deal of my own time is going

1686
01:25:49.540 --> 01:25:51.860
<v Fred Chaney>into berating government for its failure

1687
01:25:51.860 --> 01:25:52.720
<v Fred Chaney>to do so.

1688
01:25:52.720 --> 01:25:55.840
<v Fred Chaney>To have a culture which enables it to work successfully

1689
01:25:55.840 --> 01:25:57.940
<v Fred Chaney>with Aboriginal people in many circumstances.

1690
01:25:58.940 --> 01:26:00.280
<v Fred Chaney>And I think this is absolutely vital.

1691
01:26:01.100 --> 01:26:05.120
<v Fred Chaney>I think that, can I give you a very quick example, Rio Tinto,

1692
01:26:05.360 --> 01:26:07.440
<v Fred Chaney>which was the company that turned the mining industry

1693
01:26:07.440 --> 01:26:13.000
<v Fred Chaney>around in 1995, they knew that they had the wrong culture

1694
01:26:13.000 --> 01:26:14.440
<v Fred Chaney>for dealing with Aboriginal people.

1695
01:26:14.560 --> 01:26:16.500
<v Fred Chaney>And they set about a substantial program

1696
01:26:16.500 --> 01:26:18.160
<v Fred Chaney>of re-culturing the company.

1697
01:26:19.120 --> 01:26:22.260
<v Fred Chaney>And they put 1,600 of their senior people

1698
01:26:22.720 --> 01:26:24.380
<v Fred Chaney>through a re-culturing exercise

1699
01:26:25.080 --> 01:26:26.540
<v Fred Chaney>because they knew they needed it.

1700
01:26:27.400 --> 01:26:29.280
<v Fred Chaney>I think actually there's a need for that in state

1701
01:26:29.280 --> 01:26:30.080
<v Fred Chaney>and federal governments.

1702
01:26:30.320 --> 01:26:32.360
<v Fred Chaney>I do not believe the staffing generally

1703
01:26:32.360 --> 01:26:35.140
<v Fred Chaney>of government departments dealing

1704
01:26:35.140 --> 01:26:38.860
<v Fred Chaney>with Aboriginal people is sufficiently culturally

1705
01:26:38.860 --> 01:26:41.920
<v Fred Chaney>sensitive and sufficiently skilled to do the job.

1706
01:26:42.140 --> 01:26:44.740
<v Fred Chaney>It goes for schools, it goes for all of the departments.

1707
01:26:44.960 --> 01:26:50.200
<v Fred Chaney>I think we have imagined that any old Joe or Joe S can do this.

1708
01:26:50.300 --> 01:26:52.300
<v Fred Chaney>Well I think it actually needs a bit of training.

1709
01:26:52.720 --> 01:26:55.000
<v Fred Chaney>And you need to make sure that the cultural fit is right.

1710
01:26:55.860 --> 01:26:56.560
<v Robyn McDermott>Thanks Fred.

1711
01:26:56.660 --> 01:26:58.000
<v Robyn McDermott>One last thing from .

1712
01:26:58.000 --> 01:27:00.300
<v Ngiare Brown>Oh no, no that's fine because we're, there's someone else.

1713
01:27:00.560 --> 01:27:04.900
<v Robyn McDermott>We have time for one last question.

1714
01:27:05.020 --> 01:27:07.060
<v Robyn McDermott>And we have exactly one and a half minutes.

1715
01:27:08.840 --> 01:27:09.980
<v Speaker 9>I'll try and be quick.

1716
01:27:10.760 --> 01:27:12.620
<v Speaker 9>I wondered why I came here.

1717
01:27:12.740 --> 01:27:15.340
<v Speaker 9>I'm from, I worked in the northwest.

1718
01:27:16.360 --> 01:27:19.320
<v Speaker 9>I'm an optometrist who used to work with Peter Graham

1719
01:27:20.100 --> 01:27:21.480
<v Speaker 9>who was the ophthalmologist.

1720
01:27:21.500 --> 01:27:22.160
<v Speaker 9>He used to train.

1721
01:27:22.160 --> 01:27:22.280
<v Speaker 9>He was a doctor.

1722
01:27:22.420 --> 01:27:23.440
<v Speaker 9>He used to train around that area.

1723
01:27:24.140 --> 01:27:26.220
<v Speaker 9>And I had a lot of time on my hands.

1724
01:27:26.280 --> 01:27:26.880
<v Speaker 9>I'm a musician.

1725
01:27:28.360 --> 01:27:30.660
<v Speaker 9>And I got to know Herbert Parker.

1726
01:27:30.940 --> 01:27:32.480
<v Speaker 9>I used to go to the Yule River meetings.

1727
01:27:32.820 --> 01:27:33.720
<v Fred Chaney>I know both those people.

1728
01:27:33.960 --> 01:27:34.320
<v Fred Chaney>Yes.

1729
01:27:34.520 --> 01:27:34.920
<v Fred Chaney>Very well.

1730
01:27:35.040 --> 01:27:38.100
<v Speaker 9>And I wanted, I wanted to say a quick thing.

1731
01:27:38.240 --> 01:27:40.900
<v Speaker 9>When I was in Tasmania I met the people there.

1732
01:27:41.140 --> 01:27:43.660
<v Speaker 9>And they told me that they had paddy wagon names.

1733
01:27:44.180 --> 01:27:45.660
<v Speaker 9>Paddy wagon surnames.

1734
01:27:45.780 --> 01:27:47.880
<v Speaker 9>And anybody who identified their surname,

1735
01:27:48.020 --> 01:27:49.700
<v Speaker 9>the coppers would just throw them in the paddy wagon.

1736
01:27:49.700 --> 01:27:54.960
<v Speaker 9>And as a musician we sang about that.

1737
01:27:56.000 --> 01:28:00.940
<v Speaker 9>With the vegetable garden, the guy,

1738
01:28:00.980 --> 01:28:03.000
<v Speaker 9>we went down to do a vegetable garden.

1739
01:28:03.060 --> 01:28:05.480
<v Speaker 9>And the ganja garden was doing way better.

1740
01:28:07.020 --> 01:28:12.480
<v Speaker 9>But what happened in both cases was they didn't have metal fittings.

1741
01:28:12.940 --> 01:28:15.020
<v Speaker 9>And so the kids came at summertime,

1742
01:28:15.320 --> 01:28:17.220
<v Speaker 9>ripped off the plastic fittings,

1743
01:28:17.240 --> 01:28:19.680
<v Speaker 9>and took to the hoax.

1744
01:28:19.680 --> 01:28:21.640
<v Speaker 9>Cause it was to cool themselves down.

1745
01:28:21.800 --> 01:28:24.500
<v Speaker 9>And I really, I really applaud the swimming pools.

1746
01:28:24.640 --> 01:28:26.240
<v Speaker 9>Cause when I was at Djigalong last time,

1747
01:28:26.300 --> 01:28:27.900
<v Speaker 9>all the eyes were cleaned up,

1748
01:28:27.980 --> 01:28:28.940
<v Speaker 9>the skin was better,

1749
01:28:29.060 --> 01:28:30.520
<v Speaker 9>and so forth and so on.

1750
01:28:31.020 --> 01:28:33.720
<v Speaker 9>What I wanted to talk about though was anger,

1751
01:28:33.840 --> 01:28:35.620
<v Speaker 9>anger and leadership.

1752
01:28:36.100 --> 01:28:38.180
<v Speaker 9>Very early on I had a friend from,

1753
01:28:38.420 --> 01:28:39.380
<v Speaker 9>he was a,

1754
01:28:39.380 --> 01:28:49.340
<v Speaker 9>he was a cameraman from Canada who took the pictures of the Alcalaya Lake scenario

1755
01:28:49.340 --> 01:28:57.880
<v Speaker 9>Nari up there. And he talked to the Yamaji people about this, and they said that they had to get

1756
01:28:57.880 --> 01:29:03.420
<v Speaker 9>angry. They said that the white men started this, but the red men got to finish it. That was the

1757
01:29:04.520 --> 01:29:10.540
<v Speaker 9>talk that we had at Yule River. By the way, at Yule River one time, I made the comment that

1758
01:29:10.540 --> 01:29:17.580
<v Speaker 9>I said to them, you make that government mob sit down in the sand and watch your kids,

1759
01:29:17.580 --> 01:29:25.400
<v Speaker 9>watch your kids, watch your kids do the dance, because the kids see their, their elders as being

1760
01:29:25.400 --> 01:29:30.280
<v Speaker 9>Stone Age. Oh, they're a Stone Age mob, you know, they don't know what to do, and, and these big

1761
01:29:30.280 --> 01:29:36.340
<v Speaker 9>guys, they come up in flash cars, they come down from the, the airport, have a quick talk, and then

1762
01:29:36.340 --> 01:29:43.620
<v Speaker 9>off they go. So, I said to, I said to them down there, look, put on a long dance, and then that

1763
01:29:43.620 --> 01:29:47.560
<v Speaker 9>government mob, they're going to have to clap your guys, they're going to have to clap, they're

1764
01:29:47.560 --> 01:29:52.880
<v Speaker 9>Kids. And so we made them out there for about half an hour while they were dancing and carrying on,

1765
01:29:52.960 --> 01:29:54.200
<v Speaker 9>and then they clapped them and they went.

1766
01:29:55.960 --> 01:30:02.580
<v Speaker 9>Now, anger. What I found, just prior to Rio Tinto doing that,

1767
01:30:02.660 --> 01:30:07.480
<v Speaker 9>I was often asked to go up and talk at the funeral.

1768
01:30:08.560 --> 01:30:11.460
<v Speaker 9>The old fellow would say, oh, Peter, you come and do this.

1769
01:30:12.480 --> 01:30:17.840
<v Speaker 9>And there was a particular funeral for a young man, and he was a youth worker.

1770
01:30:18.740 --> 01:30:22.040
<v Speaker 9>And he had shot himself. This is from Roadburn, some time back.

1771
01:30:22.900 --> 01:30:29.720
<v Speaker 9>And after the funeral, they all sat down and they were all blaming the people at Tom Price and around the place

1772
01:30:29.720 --> 01:30:35.840
<v Speaker 9>that this Aboriginal man who was a youth worker had his funding pulled.

1773
01:30:36.660 --> 01:30:40.240
<v Speaker 9>This young man had given all these promises to his Aboriginal friends.

1774
01:30:41.460 --> 01:30:42.820
<v Speaker 9>And he couldn't face them, so he killed himself.

1775
01:30:44.060 --> 01:30:46.960
<v Speaker 9>So they came around in a circle, and I was sitting there too.

1776
01:30:47.560 --> 01:30:50.860
<v Speaker 9>And they said, we're going to go up to Tom Price and shoot the place up.

1777
01:30:51.540 --> 01:30:52.820
<v Speaker 9>What do you think, Peter?

1778
01:30:54.640 --> 01:30:58.220
<v Speaker 9>And I made some comments that if they were going to go up there,

1779
01:30:58.260 --> 01:31:00.820
<v Speaker 9>they better identify who they're going to shoot up first.

1780
01:31:02.240 --> 01:31:06.800
<v Speaker 9>What they did after consultation is that they went up to Tom Price

1781
01:31:06.800 --> 01:31:11.440
<v Speaker 9>and they held a big cultural show in the main hall.

1782
01:31:11.460 --> 01:31:12.060
<v Speaker 9>And they were very angry.

1783
01:31:12.100 --> 01:31:12.580
<v Speaker 9>And they were very angry.

1784
01:31:12.580 --> 01:31:12.720
<v Speaker 9>And they were very angry.

1785
01:31:12.900 --> 01:31:16.900
<v Speaker 9>And from that anger, from this, it galvanized the men.

1786
01:31:17.000 --> 01:31:21.100
<v Speaker 9>And often the men, the women, have still their roles that they play.

1787
01:31:21.440 --> 01:31:28.180
<v Speaker 9>The men, they go hunting, but they didn't have, their roles are in flux.

1788
01:31:28.420 --> 01:31:30.620
<v Speaker 9>And a lot of them didn't feel that they were useful.

1789
01:31:31.140 --> 01:31:33.080
<v Speaker 9>But when they were able to show that leadership,

1790
01:31:33.240 --> 01:31:37.780
<v Speaker 9>they went up and they started a process with the middle management of Tom Price.

1791
01:31:38.120 --> 01:31:40.440
<v Speaker 9>And they realized that,

1792
01:31:40.980 --> 01:31:41.420
<v Speaker 9>and they realized that,

1793
01:31:41.420 --> 01:31:43.800
<v Speaker 9>that the people up there really didn't know

1794
01:31:43.800 --> 01:31:46.820
<v Speaker 9>what was going on within the Aboriginal culture.

1795
01:31:47.660 --> 01:31:50.560
<v Speaker 9>There's several times I've seen,

1796
01:31:50.560 --> 01:31:54.580
<v Speaker 9>I've seen the people roused, the guys,

1797
01:31:54.780 --> 01:32:01.720
<v Speaker 9>and when directed, that showed the leadership qualities of a slim parker.

1798
01:32:01.780 --> 01:32:03.380
<v Speaker 9>I don't know whether you know slim.

1799
01:32:03.660 --> 01:32:04.760
<v Fred Chaney>I knew him when he was slim.

1800
01:32:04.960 --> 01:32:07.180
<v Speaker 9>Yeah, well, he's been lap-banded.

1801
01:32:07.380 --> 01:32:09.600
<v Robyn McDermott>Well, we actually do need to wrap this up.

1802
01:32:09.800 --> 01:32:10.700
<v Robyn McDermott>So this is a long story.

1803
01:32:10.700 --> 01:32:11.280
<v Robyn McDermott>My only question,

1804
01:32:11.420 --> 01:32:12.460
<v Robyn McDermott>short story or short story.

1805
01:32:12.680 --> 01:32:13.680
<v Fred Chaney>Hang around, mate.

1806
01:32:13.760 --> 01:32:14.660
<v Speaker 9>We'll have a talk after.

1807
01:32:14.680 --> 01:32:16.400
<v Robyn McDermott>Maybe we can continue this later.

1808
01:32:16.880 --> 01:32:20.880
<v Speaker 9>It was, how do you assess how well you have listened to your communities?

1809
01:32:21.200 --> 01:32:25.200
<v Speaker 9>Though I do see now that you're very, I've been very impressed with you.

1810
01:32:25.500 --> 01:32:29.760
<v Speaker 9>But often we would have people come up, they would talk to us,

1811
01:32:29.880 --> 01:32:33.380
<v Speaker 9>and then we'd say they had that consultation, and then they'd gone back

1812
01:32:33.380 --> 01:32:35.320
<v Speaker 9>to their offices and done what they wanted to do.

1813
01:32:36.240 --> 01:32:36.840
<v Robyn McDermott>Thank you.

1814
01:32:39.780 --> 01:32:41.220
<v Robyn McDermott>Is that demand an answer?

1815
01:32:41.300 --> 01:32:41.400
<v Robyn McDermott>No.

1816
01:32:42.300 --> 01:32:45.280
<v Fred Chaney>How do you know the community's talk, you really do?

1817
01:32:46.020 --> 01:32:46.980
<v Fred Chaney>How do they know that?

1818
01:32:47.040 --> 01:32:47.960
<v Fred Chaney>How do I know?

1819
01:32:47.980 --> 01:32:48.620
<v Fred Chaney>How do they know?

1820
01:32:48.620 --> 01:32:49.820
<v Ngiare Brown>That I've spoken to the community?

1821
01:32:50.120 --> 01:32:50.260
<v Ngiare Brown>Yeah.

1822
01:32:51.200 --> 01:32:57.340
<v Ngiare Brown>Well, through experience, it's actually about my commitment to,

1823
01:32:58.640 --> 01:33:01.380
<v Ngiare Brown>it's not a one-off issue, it's about relationship building.

1824
01:33:01.420 --> 01:33:03.700
<v Ngiare Brown>And so, in fact, that commitment to sustainability

1825
01:33:03.700 --> 01:33:07.560
<v Ngiare Brown>in a relationship is actually how they will know that I'm paying attention.

1826
01:33:08.820 --> 01:33:10.140
<v Ngiare Brown>Don't make any rash promises.

1827
01:33:10.240 --> 01:33:11.160
<v Ngiare Brown>That's always a good thing.

1828
01:33:11.420 --> 01:33:15.740
<v Ngiare Brown>But you'll be amazed by the memory of indigenous communities.

1829
01:33:16.080 --> 01:33:18.540
<v Ngiare Brown>And it may be five years between a visit, but they'll know.

1830
01:33:18.680 --> 01:33:19.960
<v Ngiare Brown>And they'll know whether you're committed.

1831
01:33:20.100 --> 01:33:21.760
<v Ngiare Brown>And my brother says that the bullshit meter,

1832
01:33:22.260 --> 01:33:24.620
<v Ngiare Brown>Aboriginal people's bullshit meter is very sensitive.

1833
01:33:24.900 --> 01:33:26.860
<v Ngiare Brown>So they'll know whether you're fair dinkum or not.

1834
01:33:27.060 --> 01:33:29.100
<v Ngiare Brown>But again, it's part of that sort of relationship.

1835
01:33:29.800 --> 01:33:35.080
<v Ngiare Brown>And can I just comment, you know, the men may think that they make all the decision,

1836
01:33:35.260 --> 01:33:37.800
<v Ngiare Brown>but it's always the women that get all the work done, my brother.

1837
01:33:39.800 --> 01:33:41.400
<v Robyn McDermott>And on that note, I think we're going to wrap up.

1838
01:33:41.400 --> 01:33:42.180
<v Robyn McDermott>I think we need to end.

1839
01:33:43.200 --> 01:33:44.840
<v Robyn McDermott>Thank you very much to our panel.

1840
01:33:47.920 --> 01:33:48.640
<v Robyn McDermott>Thank you.