WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.440 and welcome to yet another session of the Festival of Ideas. 2 00:00:03.480 --> 00:00:04.700 My name is Rick Saar. 3 00:00:04.860 --> 00:00:07.400 I teach law at the University of South Australia 4 00:00:07.400 --> 00:00:11.540 and it's my pleasure to be your chairperson 5 00:00:11.540 --> 00:00:14.340 and kind of master of ceremonies for this session. 6 00:00:14.680 --> 00:00:16.780 I've just been talking to our stage manager, 7 00:00:17.020 --> 00:00:20.360 Melanie Selwood, who will be with the roving mic 8 00:00:20.360 --> 00:00:21.800 before we finish today, 9 00:00:21.920 --> 00:00:22.920 just about the program 10 00:00:22.920 --> 00:00:26.160 and something of a slight discrepancy in timing. 11 00:00:26.160 --> 00:00:29.940 The program, where it actually has a nice picture of Alex, 12 00:00:30.500 --> 00:00:33.620 does say here 11.45, which is kind of now, 13 00:00:33.820 --> 00:00:35.900 to 1.15, which is a long session. 14 00:00:36.580 --> 00:00:39.700 If you go to the actual program at the front, 15 00:00:39.780 --> 00:00:43.040 where it actually has today's program hour by hour, 16 00:00:43.120 --> 00:00:46.460 it says 11.45 to 12.30, which is 45 minutes shorter. 17 00:00:48.620 --> 00:00:49.960 In chatting with Melanie, 18 00:00:50.120 --> 00:00:53.400 because the program will need to keep moving fairly rapidly after that, 19 00:00:53.500 --> 00:00:55.460 we are going to go with this program 20 00:00:55.460 --> 00:00:56.140 rather than the other program. 21 00:00:56.160 --> 00:00:56.880 We're going to go with this program 22 00:00:56.880 --> 00:00:58.400 to allow you to see some more things. 23 00:00:58.680 --> 00:01:01.080 However, because we are starting five minutes late, 24 00:01:01.220 --> 00:01:03.320 I think we can crib until 12.35. 25 00:01:03.700 --> 00:01:07.020 So if that's not of too much difficulty to anyone, 26 00:01:07.260 --> 00:01:11.900 we will ask Alex to speak for around about 25 minutes. 27 00:01:12.040 --> 00:01:13.100 I'll make a quick introduction. 28 00:01:13.360 --> 00:01:15.500 The less you hear of me, the more you hear of him. 29 00:01:15.860 --> 00:01:17.280 And then after 25 minutes, 30 00:01:17.360 --> 00:01:19.320 he and I will be in dialogue around these chairs 31 00:01:19.320 --> 00:01:22.940 and you'll have an opportunity to ask some questions as well. 32 00:01:23.060 --> 00:01:25.320 So our time frame will be to walk out of here 33 00:01:25.320 --> 00:01:25.900 at precisely... 34 00:01:26.160 --> 00:01:27.160 It's actually 12.35 today, 35 00:01:27.320 --> 00:01:29.620 if you can think around your program thereafter, 36 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:31.940 you know, the front of the line at a sausage sizzle 37 00:01:31.940 --> 00:01:33.580 or whatever you need to do thereafter. 38 00:01:34.140 --> 00:01:37.180 Anyway, it falls to me with the very great privilege 39 00:01:37.180 --> 00:01:40.040 and pleasure of welcoming Dr Alex Wodak. 40 00:01:40.180 --> 00:01:42.760 As you can see here in your brief, 41 00:01:42.920 --> 00:01:45.940 he has been the Director of the Alcohol and Drug Service 42 00:01:45.940 --> 00:01:48.700 at St Vincent's Hospital in Sydney since 1982 43 00:01:48.700 --> 00:01:52.860 and obviously there for more than 25 or 6 years 44 00:01:52.860 --> 00:01:55.480 in health policy and public policy. 45 00:01:56.160 --> 00:01:58.280 He has a major interest in prevention of HIV 46 00:01:58.280 --> 00:02:01.800 among injecting drug users and drug policy reform. 47 00:02:02.580 --> 00:02:06.020 Alex is President of the Australian Drug Law Reform Foundation 48 00:02:06.020 --> 00:02:08.860 and was President of the International Harm Reduction Association 49 00:02:08.860 --> 00:02:11.060 from 1996 to 2004. 50 00:02:11.540 --> 00:02:14.000 He helped establish the first needle syringe program 51 00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:17.280 and the first medically supervised injecting centre in Australia 52 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:19.380 when both were pre-legal 53 00:02:19.380 --> 00:02:22.440 and often works in developing countries on HIV control 54 00:02:22.440 --> 00:02:24.580 among injecting drug users. 55 00:02:24.980 --> 00:02:26.000 Ladies and gentlemen, 56 00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:27.700 please welcome Alex Wodak. 57 00:02:31.020 --> 00:02:32.060 Good morning. 58 00:02:32.100 --> 00:02:32.720 Good afternoon. 59 00:02:33.640 --> 00:02:35.260 Thank you very much for the introduction. 60 00:02:36.020 --> 00:02:39.080 I'm going to be talking about the first and last century 61 00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:40.400 of global drug prohibition. 62 00:02:40.480 --> 00:02:42.720 We're going to start off talking a little bit about the history 63 00:02:42.720 --> 00:02:45.400 and development of global drug prohibition. 64 00:02:45.880 --> 00:02:49.440 Global drug prohibition developed from a meeting of 13 nations 65 00:02:49.440 --> 00:02:51.600 known as the International Opium Commission, 66 00:02:52.320 --> 00:02:55.000 which was a meeting convened by the United States 67 00:02:55.000 --> 00:02:55.980 and held in Shanghai, Australia, 68 00:02:56.000 --> 00:02:58.840 in the United States in 1909. 69 00:03:00.200 --> 00:03:03.620 Subsequent meetings included one held in The Hague in 1912 70 00:03:03.620 --> 00:03:05.600 and then another meeting, 71 00:03:05.740 --> 00:03:07.500 the Second International Opium Commission, 72 00:03:07.600 --> 00:03:09.520 which was held in Geneva in 1925 73 00:03:09.520 --> 00:03:11.880 under the aegis of the League of Nations. 74 00:03:12.420 --> 00:03:16.640 The Geneva meeting agreed to prohibit three plant-based drugs, 75 00:03:16.760 --> 00:03:18.520 opium, coca and cannabis, 76 00:03:18.720 --> 00:03:20.140 and drugs derived from them. 77 00:03:20.900 --> 00:03:22.520 After the Second World War, 78 00:03:23.320 --> 00:03:25.200 three international drug treaties were negotiated 79 00:03:25.200 --> 00:03:25.980 and agreed to prohibit three plant-based drugs, 80 00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:26.780 opium, coca and cannabis, 81 00:03:26.780 --> 00:03:30.080 The Single Convention, brought together in one treaty in 1961, 82 00:03:30.500 --> 00:03:33.360 all the treaties agreed under the League of Nations. 83 00:03:33.700 --> 00:03:36.100 The Psychotropic Convention in 1971 84 00:03:36.100 --> 00:03:40.240 was a response to growing fears about synthetic drugs 85 00:03:40.240 --> 00:03:42.480 such as amphetamine and barbiturates. 86 00:03:43.160 --> 00:03:46.440 A third treaty on drug trafficking was agreed in 1988. 87 00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:54.440 The United Nations established several organisations 88 00:03:54.440 --> 00:03:55.920 to support these treaties. 89 00:03:55.920 --> 00:03:59.480 The Commission on Narcotic Drugs, CND, develops policy. 90 00:04:00.380 --> 00:04:03.900 The Office on Drugs and Crime, UNODC, implements policy, 91 00:04:04.220 --> 00:04:09.080 while a quasi-UN body, the International Narcotics Control Board, the INCB, 92 00:04:09.940 --> 00:04:14.320 monitors compliance by parties, that is, member states, with the agreed policies. 93 00:04:14.780 --> 00:04:18.040 A remarkable feature of international drug control 94 00:04:18.040 --> 00:04:21.480 is the virtually universal adoption of this system 95 00:04:21.480 --> 00:04:24.400 by almost every member of the United Nations. 96 00:04:24.400 --> 00:04:29.420 A further important development was the declaration of a war against drugs 97 00:04:29.420 --> 00:04:32.740 by President Nixon on 17 June 1971. 98 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:37.300 While intended originally only as a political strategy 99 00:04:37.300 --> 00:04:39.420 and not as a public policy... 100 00:04:41.240 --> 00:04:43.720 Oh, I see. I beg your pardon. 101 00:04:43.940 --> 00:04:44.340 It's OK. 102 00:04:45.320 --> 00:04:50.920 While originally intended only as a political strategy 103 00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:54.140 and not a public policy, that distinction was soon forgotten. 104 00:04:54.400 --> 00:04:58.840 The extraordinary political success of the war on drugs in the United States 105 00:04:58.840 --> 00:05:01.900 was noted and emulated widely across the world. 106 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:07.060 On 5 June 1981, a US publication reported the recognition 107 00:05:07.060 --> 00:05:10.560 of a new immune disorder, later termed AIDS, 108 00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:15.260 and subsequently shown to be caused by a virus which came to be called HIV. 109 00:05:16.960 --> 00:05:20.840 Injecting drug users were found to be at high risk of acquiring this virus 110 00:05:20.840 --> 00:05:23.660 and subsequently transmitting it to others. 111 00:05:24.400 --> 00:05:29.480 Today, about 30% of new HIV infections outside sub-Saharan Africa 112 00:05:29.480 --> 00:05:31.780 are associated with injecting drug use, 113 00:05:31.920 --> 00:05:35.980 and AIDS today accounts for one in every six deaths in the world. 114 00:05:36.840 --> 00:05:40.920 Although effective harm reduction methods of preventing HIV infection 115 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:44.580 among injecting drug users have been known for about two decades, 116 00:05:44.980 --> 00:05:47.160 adoption and implementation is poor, 117 00:05:47.380 --> 00:05:52.140 largely because of entrenched opposition from drug law enforcement supporters. 118 00:05:53.520 --> 00:05:54.380 The AIDS disease is a common disease. 119 00:05:54.380 --> 00:05:57.960 The aims of global drug prohibition are firstly to minimise the availability 120 00:05:57.960 --> 00:06:02.640 and use of specified prohibited drugs for recreational purposes, 121 00:06:02.920 --> 00:06:07.040 and secondly to ensure that adequate supplies of these prohibited drugs 122 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:10.500 are still available for medicinal and scientific purposes. 123 00:06:11.220 --> 00:06:15.740 The indicators that drug prohibition is working are firstly 124 00:06:15.740 --> 00:06:20.940 the scarcity of prohibited drugs, secondly high and increasing prices 125 00:06:20.940 --> 00:06:24.360 and low and decreasing prices of street drugs, 126 00:06:24.380 --> 00:06:28.020 thirdly declining consumption of illicit drugs, 127 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:32.280 and fourthly that the identified benefits of prohibition 128 00:06:32.280 --> 00:06:36.440 far exceed the unintended adverse effects of the policy. 129 00:06:37.460 --> 00:06:38.780 Has drug prohibition worked? 130 00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:42.460 Well, drugs, ladies and gentlemen, are still readily available, 131 00:06:43.420 --> 00:06:45.920 prices have fallen dramatically, not risen, 132 00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:49.200 and purity has been increasing, not decreasing, 133 00:06:49.580 --> 00:06:51.060 and I'll show you data for all of this. 134 00:06:51.440 --> 00:06:54.360 Production and consumption of illicit drugs is increasing, 135 00:06:54.380 --> 00:06:57.920 not decreasing, while benefits of global drug prohibition 136 00:06:57.920 --> 00:07:01.400 are hard to identify, adverse effects are multiple, 137 00:07:01.580 --> 00:07:03.800 severe, serious and obvious. 138 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:08.140 If this is success, what on earth would failure look like? 139 00:07:08.740 --> 00:07:12.980 In 1998, the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime 140 00:07:12.980 --> 00:07:16.240 attended a major drug policy meeting at the United Nations in New York 141 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:19.820 and used the slogan, a drug-free world, we can do it. 142 00:07:20.420 --> 00:07:24.360 Ten years later, in 2007, according to UNODC's report, 143 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:25.380 its own official estimates, 144 00:07:25.560 --> 00:07:28.080 global opium production had more than doubled, 145 00:07:28.260 --> 00:07:35.280 and the 1998 and 2007 figures circled by the red rectangles 146 00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:39.460 showed that global opium production had more than doubled, 147 00:07:39.620 --> 00:07:42.080 in fact, it increased by 103%. 148 00:07:42.960 --> 00:07:45.060 Cocaine production, the same period, again, 149 00:07:45.080 --> 00:07:49.140 identified by the red rectangles, had increased by 20%, 150 00:07:49.140 --> 00:07:51.940 and cannabis production, global cannabis production, 151 00:07:52.180 --> 00:07:54.220 had increased in the first six years, 152 00:07:54.360 --> 00:07:56.420 in the second six of that decade, by 36%. 153 00:07:57.340 --> 00:08:00.520 If this is success, what would failure look like? 154 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:04.460 Illicit drugs are also readily available. 155 00:08:05.280 --> 00:08:08.980 Here we have figures for the availability of heroin in Australia, 156 00:08:09.240 --> 00:08:13.440 these are official figures, from 2000 to 2008, 157 00:08:13.700 --> 00:08:18.960 and as you can see here, that 60% to 85% of illicit drug users 158 00:08:18.960 --> 00:08:22.700 reported that heroin was either easy or very easy, 159 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:24.340 shown easy in blue. 160 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:26.560 Very easy is shown in the easy is the dark blue, 161 00:08:27.300 --> 00:08:28.620 very easy is the pale blue. 162 00:08:28.780 --> 00:08:33.060 60% to 85% of Australian drug users reported that 163 00:08:33.060 --> 00:08:37.540 heroin was easy or very easy to obtain between 2000 and 2008. 164 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:42.840 Last year's figures were 85% said that heroin was easy or very easy to obtain. 165 00:08:43.180 --> 00:08:45.040 Here we have the figures for cocaine. 166 00:08:45.980 --> 00:08:52.340 From 2001, 40% to 60% said that cocaine was easy or very easy to obtain, 167 00:08:52.560 --> 00:08:54.340 and here we have the figures for... 168 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:59.380 Methamphetamine, and from 2002, 80% reported that 169 00:08:59.380 --> 00:09:03.240 methamphetamine powder was either easy or very easy to obtain. 170 00:09:03.580 --> 00:09:06.520 If this is success, what would failure look like? 171 00:09:06.860 --> 00:09:10.820 In a recent study of the heroin and cocaine market, 172 00:09:10.940 --> 00:09:15.000 from 1981 to 2002, commissioned by the European Commission, 173 00:09:15.860 --> 00:09:20.000 Peter Reuter and Franz Trautmann reported that global drug prices 174 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:23.460 for heroin and cocaine fell by more than 80% 175 00:09:23.460 --> 00:09:24.340 in the last year. 176 00:09:24.360 --> 00:09:25.280 In those two decades. 177 00:09:26.040 --> 00:09:29.360 Here are figures from the United States Drug Enforcement Agency, 178 00:09:29.620 --> 00:09:32.420 who reported that a unit of heroin, the top left, 179 00:09:33.280 --> 00:09:36.900 which had cost $3.90 per unit in 1980, 180 00:09:37.160 --> 00:09:38.240 cost just... 181 00:09:38.760 --> 00:09:39.060 Bottom... 182 00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:41.520 Sorry, bottom left on yours now, 183 00:09:41.940 --> 00:09:44.480 cost just 80 cents in 1999, 184 00:09:45.440 --> 00:09:47.280 while purity, on the right side of the screen, 185 00:09:48.160 --> 00:09:51.740 rose from 3.6% in 1980 186 00:09:52.680 --> 00:09:54.340 to 38.2%. 187 00:09:54.360 --> 00:09:56.160 In 1999. 188 00:09:57.000 --> 00:10:02.180 In the European Union, between 2001 and 2006, 189 00:10:02.540 --> 00:10:08.420 the price of seven drugs decreased from 10% to up to 50%. 190 00:10:08.420 --> 00:10:11.980 Here are the retail prices in Europe and the United States. 191 00:10:13.220 --> 00:10:15.880 And United States is the dark blue bar. 192 00:10:16.700 --> 00:10:19.980 Europe is the pink magenta bar line. 193 00:10:21.160 --> 00:10:24.340 Declined, as you can see, substantially between 1990 and 2000. 194 00:10:24.340 --> 00:10:28.580 Similar figures for cocaine with the same colour coding. 195 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:31.360 And you can see the substantial drop in prices. 196 00:10:31.980 --> 00:10:34.280 As the number of jail and prison inmates 197 00:10:34.280 --> 00:10:36.960 serving sentences for drug-related offences 198 00:10:36.960 --> 00:10:40.080 increased tenfold in the United States, 199 00:10:40.100 --> 00:10:43.980 from a mere 50,000 in 1981, on your left, 200 00:10:44.120 --> 00:10:47.020 to 500,000 in 2003, 201 00:10:47.380 --> 00:10:49.300 the price of heroin and cocaine, 202 00:10:49.980 --> 00:10:52.920 cocaine in the dark, heroin in the pale grey, 203 00:10:52.920 --> 00:10:55.740 dropped by about 80%. 204 00:10:56.680 --> 00:10:59.840 Same period as the USA increased its spending 205 00:10:59.840 --> 00:11:01.740 on international drug control, 206 00:11:01.900 --> 00:11:03.940 more than tenfold in the same period, 207 00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:07.360 the price of heroin and cocaine again dropped 80%. 208 00:11:07.920 --> 00:11:10.500 If this is success, what would failure look like? 209 00:11:10.880 --> 00:11:14.040 The availability of prohibited drugs for medicinal use 210 00:11:14.040 --> 00:11:15.080 has been inadequate. 211 00:11:15.560 --> 00:11:19.080 Just 15% of the world's population in 1999 212 00:11:19.920 --> 00:11:21.700 accounted for 87% 213 00:11:21.700 --> 00:11:22.660 of the 214 00:11:22.920 --> 00:11:25.260 global legal morphine consumption. 215 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:30.240 In 1999, the United States accounted for 4.7% 216 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:31.840 of the world's population, 217 00:11:32.020 --> 00:11:36.800 but accounted for 49% of legal global morphine consumption 218 00:11:36.800 --> 00:11:41.220 and 99% of the consumption of sustained-release oxycodone. 219 00:11:41.680 --> 00:11:46.360 Only 10 million of the 20 million new global cancer cases 220 00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:49.660 each year are expected to receive adequate pain relief. 221 00:11:50.300 --> 00:11:52.900 Have there been benefits of drug prohibition? 222 00:11:52.900 --> 00:11:57.080 Of the almost 200 countries that have adopted 223 00:11:57.080 --> 00:11:59.280 global drug prohibition for some years now, 224 00:11:59.960 --> 00:12:01.780 identifiable benefits of prohibition 225 00:12:01.780 --> 00:12:03.580 have been few and far between. 226 00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:06.560 The United States experienced a heroin shortage 227 00:12:06.560 --> 00:12:09.480 lasting a couple of years in the 1970s 228 00:12:09.480 --> 00:12:12.820 when the French connection was identified and then broken up. 229 00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:16.840 After the Mr Asia Syndicate was detected and dealt with 230 00:12:16.840 --> 00:12:19.100 in the early 1990s, 231 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:22.080 heroin has been in short supply in New Zealand. 232 00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:24.440 It helps to keep heroin out of your country 233 00:12:24.440 --> 00:12:26.720 if your country's got a small population, 234 00:12:27.340 --> 00:12:28.880 an unimpressive economy, 235 00:12:29.100 --> 00:12:33.420 and if your country is surrounded by 170 million square kilometres 236 00:12:33.420 --> 00:12:34.600 of Pacific Ocean. 237 00:12:35.580 --> 00:12:38.120 For die-hard supporters of the war on drugs, 238 00:12:38.280 --> 00:12:40.860 Sweden is proof that prohibition can be successful. 239 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:44.160 But Sweden lies on the periphery of Europe. 240 00:12:44.360 --> 00:12:47.040 It is one of the more rural countries in Europe 241 00:12:47.040 --> 00:12:50.120 and it spends a lot of money on health and welfare, 242 00:12:50.300 --> 00:12:51.340 and importantly, 243 00:12:51.340 --> 00:12:54.300 Sweden also has less economic inequality 244 00:12:54.300 --> 00:12:56.420 than most other developed countries. 245 00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:01.020 Some have attributed Australia's heroin shortage since 2000 246 00:13:01.020 --> 00:13:02.840 to drug law enforcement, 247 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:05.580 but our heroin shortage occurred at a time 248 00:13:05.580 --> 00:13:09.180 when heroin production in our major source country, Burma, 249 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:11.540 had dropped by 80 to 90 per cent, 250 00:13:11.700 --> 00:13:14.820 while consumption in China, a transit country 251 00:13:14.820 --> 00:13:16.540 for much of the heroin reaching Australia, 252 00:13:16.780 --> 00:13:18.280 had increased tenfold. 253 00:13:18.520 --> 00:13:20.480 The heroin shortage that affected 254 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:22.720 other markets supplied by Burma, 255 00:13:22.760 --> 00:13:26.320 such as Western Canada and some South-East Asian countries, 256 00:13:26.560 --> 00:13:30.200 also makes the likely role of Australian drug law enforcement 257 00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:32.620 in our heroin shortage very questionable. 258 00:13:33.840 --> 00:13:36.100 While benefits are hard to identify, 259 00:13:36.300 --> 00:13:39.760 serious unintended consequences are all too obvious. 260 00:13:40.380 --> 00:13:43.360 The UNODC is the major international defender 261 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:44.740 of global drug prohibition, 262 00:13:44.860 --> 00:13:47.540 and this is how this organisation describes 263 00:13:47.540 --> 00:13:50.460 the unintended consequences of its drug prohibition. 264 00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:50.660 The UNODC is the major international defender 265 00:13:50.660 --> 00:13:51.520 of global drug prohibition, 266 00:13:51.520 --> 00:13:55.100 Global drug control efforts have had a dramatic, 267 00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:56.580 unintended consequence, 268 00:13:56.900 --> 00:13:59.980 a criminal black market of staggering proportions. 269 00:14:00.680 --> 00:14:03.260 Organised crime is a threat to security. 270 00:14:03.740 --> 00:14:06.140 Criminal organisations have the power 271 00:14:06.140 --> 00:14:08.520 to destabilise society and governments. 272 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:12.300 The illicit drug business is worth billions of dollars a year, 273 00:14:12.540 --> 00:14:15.480 part of which is used to corrupt government officials 274 00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:17.120 and to poison economies. 275 00:14:18.140 --> 00:14:20.360 Drug cartels are spreading violence 276 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:23.000 in Central America, Mexico and the Caribbean. 277 00:14:23.360 --> 00:14:27.040 West Africa is under attack from narco-trafficking. 278 00:14:27.880 --> 00:14:30.340 Collusion between insurgents and criminal groups 279 00:14:30.340 --> 00:14:32.660 threatens the instability of West Asia, 280 00:14:32.780 --> 00:14:34.540 the Andes and parts of Africa, 281 00:14:35.880 --> 00:14:37.980 fuelling the trade in smuggled weapons, 282 00:14:38.160 --> 00:14:40.740 the plunder of natural resources and piracy. 283 00:14:42.220 --> 00:14:43.840 Can drug prohibition work? 284 00:14:44.640 --> 00:14:47.700 If we cannot keep drugs out of our prisons, and we cannot, 285 00:14:47.960 --> 00:14:50.340 how can we keep drugs out of Hindley Street? 286 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:54.600 If a kilogram of heroin in Bangkok costs $1,000, 287 00:14:54.780 --> 00:14:58.720 but the same kilogram of heroin costs $300,000 288 00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:01.680 in New York, London, Amsterdam or Adelaide, 289 00:15:01.800 --> 00:15:04.760 how can it be stopped from making that journey? 290 00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:07.880 The more money we spend on customs and police, 291 00:15:08.020 --> 00:15:10.400 and the more severe the prison sentences 292 00:15:10.400 --> 00:15:11.700 for drug-related offences, 293 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:14.860 the higher we expect the retail price to be. 294 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:17.260 The higher the price, the more the profit. 295 00:15:17.960 --> 00:15:20.360 And the more the profit, the more attractive it is, 296 00:15:20.360 --> 00:15:22.960 for would-be traffickers, to take the risks 297 00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:25.660 and bring that kilogram of heroin from Bangkok. 298 00:15:26.040 --> 00:15:29.120 This is the Achilles' heel of drug law enforcement. 299 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:32.880 If alcohol prohibition failed in the United States 300 00:15:32.880 --> 00:15:35.800 from 1920 to 1933, and it did, 301 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:38.660 then how can we expect that drug prohibition 302 00:15:38.660 --> 00:15:39.900 is going to be any different? 303 00:15:42.360 --> 00:15:43.260 What do experts think? 304 00:15:43.580 --> 00:15:45.860 Let's start with expert opinion from Australia. 305 00:15:46.160 --> 00:15:48.780 Here is one of the earliest assessments 306 00:15:48.780 --> 00:15:50.340 of the failure of drug prohibition 307 00:15:50.360 --> 00:15:50.880 in Australia. 308 00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:54.340 Edible opium was taxed and available legally 309 00:15:54.340 --> 00:15:56.300 in Australia until 1906. 310 00:15:57.360 --> 00:15:59.440 In his annual report to the Commonwealth Parliament 311 00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:03.340 in 1908 on the state of taxation in the nation, 312 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:06.980 HNP Wollaston, the Commonwealth Comptroller General 313 00:16:06.980 --> 00:16:08.200 in Customs, said, 314 00:16:08.360 --> 00:16:11.360 It is very doubtful if such prohibition 315 00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:13.900 has lessened to an extent the amount 316 00:16:13.900 --> 00:16:15.260 which is brought into Australia. 317 00:16:15.900 --> 00:16:17.560 Owing to total prohibition, 318 00:16:17.560 --> 00:16:20.000 the price of opium has risen enormously. 319 00:16:20.540 --> 00:16:22.940 The Commonwealth gladly gave up 320 00:16:22.940 --> 00:16:24.940 about £60,000 revenue 321 00:16:24.940 --> 00:16:27.600 with a view to a suppression of the evil, 322 00:16:27.700 --> 00:16:30.620 but the result has been not what has been hoped for. 323 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:33.960 What now appears to be the effect of total prohibition 324 00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:36.260 is that while we have lost the beauty, 325 00:16:36.520 --> 00:16:39.140 the opium is still imported pretty freely. 326 00:16:41.340 --> 00:16:43.000 The Parliamentary Joint Committee 327 00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:46.480 of the National Crime Authority in 1989 said, 328 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:48.300 All the evidence shows, however, 329 00:16:48.420 --> 00:16:52.640 not only that our law enforcement agencies 330 00:16:52.640 --> 00:16:55.140 have not succeeded in preventing the supply 331 00:16:55.140 --> 00:16:57.420 of illicit drugs to Australian markets, 332 00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:00.600 but that it is unrealistic to expect them to do so. 333 00:17:01.240 --> 00:17:04.020 Let's look at an expert opinion from the United States. 334 00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:06.560 This is a quote from George Shultz, 335 00:17:06.600 --> 00:17:08.100 the former US Secretary of State, 336 00:17:08.320 --> 00:17:10.220 and this quotation was taped 337 00:17:10.220 --> 00:17:13.240 when he was speaking without knowledge 338 00:17:13.240 --> 00:17:15.260 that he was being taped in 1989. 339 00:17:15.860 --> 00:17:16.460 And he said, 340 00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:20.280 It seems to me that we're not really going to get anywhere 341 00:17:20.280 --> 00:17:23.560 until we take the criminality out of the drug business 342 00:17:23.560 --> 00:17:26.380 and the incentives for criminality out of it. 343 00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:29.760 Frankly, the only way I can think of to accomplish this 344 00:17:29.760 --> 00:17:31.920 is to make it possible for addicts 345 00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:34.360 to buy drugs at some regulated place 346 00:17:34.360 --> 00:17:37.600 at a price that approximates their cost. 347 00:17:37.880 --> 00:17:40.280 We need at least to consider and examine 348 00:17:40.280 --> 00:17:42.980 forms of controlled legalisation of drugs. 349 00:17:43.840 --> 00:17:46.200 Richard Holbrooke, the current US envoy, 350 00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:49.000 to Afghanistan and Pakistan, said earlier this year, 351 00:17:49.360 --> 00:17:53.480 The United States alone is spending $800 million a year 352 00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:54.780 on counter-narcotics. 353 00:17:55.180 --> 00:17:57.780 We have gotten nothing out of it. Nothing. 354 00:17:58.060 --> 00:18:01.180 It is the most wasteful and ineffective program 355 00:18:01.180 --> 00:18:03.300 I've seen in 40 years. 356 00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:08.140 Milton Friedman, winner of the Nobel Prize for Economics, said, 357 00:18:08.300 --> 00:18:10.580 Drugs are a tragedy for addicts, 358 00:18:10.580 --> 00:18:13.800 but criminalising their use converts that tragedy 359 00:18:13.800 --> 00:18:15.840 into a disaster for society, 360 00:18:15.840 --> 00:18:18.820 for users and for non-users alike. 361 00:18:19.060 --> 00:18:22.100 Our experience with the prohibition of drugs 362 00:18:22.100 --> 00:18:24.460 is a replay of our experience 363 00:18:24.460 --> 00:18:26.620 with the prohibition of alcoholic beverages. 364 00:18:28.420 --> 00:18:32.540 In a discussion with President Vicente Fox of Mexico in 2002, 365 00:18:32.940 --> 00:18:35.080 President George W. Bush said, 366 00:18:35.260 --> 00:18:38.080 As long as there is a demand for drugs in this country, 367 00:18:38.280 --> 00:18:39.820 some crook is gonna... 368 00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:42.700 That's what he said. 369 00:18:42.820 --> 00:18:44.900 ...is gonna figure out how to get them here. 370 00:18:46.280 --> 00:18:49.260 David Cameron, leader of the Conservative Party 371 00:18:49.260 --> 00:18:52.060 in the United Kingdom and a likely future Prime Minister, 372 00:18:52.280 --> 00:18:54.060 said in 2005, 373 00:18:54.820 --> 00:18:58.020 Politicians attempt to appeal to the lowest common denominator 374 00:18:58.020 --> 00:19:00.660 by posturing with tough policies 375 00:19:00.660 --> 00:19:03.440 and calling for crackdown after crackdown. 376 00:19:03.560 --> 00:19:06.200 Drug policy has been failing for decades. 377 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:10.360 David Cameron was a member of the Select Committee on Home Affairs 378 00:19:10.360 --> 00:19:13.200 of the House of Commons in the United Kingdom, 379 00:19:13.420 --> 00:19:15.740 which reported in 2010, 380 00:19:15.840 --> 00:19:17.060 in 2002, when the committee said, 381 00:19:17.460 --> 00:19:19.320 If there is any single lesson 382 00:19:19.840 --> 00:19:21.560 from the experience of the last 30 years, 383 00:19:21.740 --> 00:19:24.520 it is that policies based wholly or mainly 384 00:19:24.520 --> 00:19:28.120 on enforcement are destined to fail. 385 00:19:28.600 --> 00:19:30.460 It remains an unhappy fact 386 00:19:30.460 --> 00:19:33.660 that the best efforts of police and customs 387 00:19:33.660 --> 00:19:36.040 have had little, if any, impact 388 00:19:36.040 --> 00:19:38.000 on the availability of illegal drugs, 389 00:19:38.120 --> 00:19:41.160 and thus this is reflected in the prices on the streets, 390 00:19:41.320 --> 00:19:43.580 which are as low as they have ever been. 391 00:19:44.080 --> 00:19:45.820 Chris Mullen was the Chair 392 00:19:45.840 --> 00:19:46.460 of that committee, 393 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:48.480 and he said in 2002, 394 00:19:49.340 --> 00:19:51.700 Attempts to combat illegal drugs 395 00:19:51.700 --> 00:19:52.980 by means of law enforcement 396 00:19:52.980 --> 00:19:55.520 have proved so manifestly unsuccessful 397 00:19:55.520 --> 00:19:58.800 that it is difficult to argue for the status quo. 398 00:19:59.380 --> 00:20:02.680 The Strategy Unit in Whitehall, United Kingdom, 399 00:20:02.820 --> 00:20:05.140 is a research centre available to the British Cabinet, 400 00:20:05.340 --> 00:20:07.520 and the Blair Cabinet in 2003 401 00:20:07.520 --> 00:20:09.220 commissioned a confidential report 402 00:20:09.840 --> 00:20:11.440 which was later leaked to the public. 403 00:20:11.700 --> 00:20:13.480 The Strategy Unit concluded, 404 00:20:13.820 --> 00:20:15.660 A sustained seizure rate 405 00:20:15.840 --> 00:20:17.600 of over 60% is required 406 00:20:17.600 --> 00:20:20.220 to put a successful trafficker out of business. 407 00:20:20.940 --> 00:20:22.380 Anecdotal evidence suggests 408 00:20:22.380 --> 00:20:25.260 that seizure rates as high as 80% 409 00:20:25.260 --> 00:20:28.040 may be needed in some cases. 410 00:20:28.420 --> 00:20:30.060 Sustained successful intervention 411 00:20:30.060 --> 00:20:32.640 at this scale has never been achieved. 412 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:36.220 The Strategy Unit also reported, 413 00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:38.320 Over the past 10 to 15 years, 414 00:20:38.600 --> 00:20:42.580 despite interventions at every point in the supply chain, 415 00:20:42.860 --> 00:20:44.520 cocaine and heroin consumption 416 00:20:44.520 --> 00:20:46.660 have been rising, prices falling, 417 00:20:46.860 --> 00:20:49.120 and drugs have continued to reach users. 418 00:20:49.560 --> 00:20:51.840 Government interventions against the drug business 419 00:20:51.840 --> 00:20:53.460 are a cost of doing business 420 00:20:53.460 --> 00:20:55.460 rather than a substantive threat 421 00:20:55.460 --> 00:20:57.100 to the industry's viability. 422 00:20:58.240 --> 00:20:59.940 And here's a statement from 423 00:20:59.940 --> 00:21:02.140 the UN Secretary-General, Ban Ki-moon, 424 00:21:02.380 --> 00:21:05.260 who said on the 7th of May this year, 425 00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:08.060 Many countries impose criminal sanctions 426 00:21:08.060 --> 00:21:12.580 for same-sex sex, commercial sex, and drug injection. 427 00:21:13.340 --> 00:21:14.500 Such laws could be enforced 428 00:21:14.520 --> 00:21:15.680 or constitute major barriers 429 00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:18.640 to reaching key populations with HIV services. 430 00:21:19.140 --> 00:21:21.860 These behaviours should be decriminalised, 431 00:21:22.520 --> 00:21:23.920 and people addicted to drugs 432 00:21:24.520 --> 00:21:25.940 should receive health services 433 00:21:25.940 --> 00:21:27.300 for the treatment of their addiction. 434 00:21:28.300 --> 00:21:31.520 One of the reasons that the drug policy debate 435 00:21:31.520 --> 00:21:33.180 has lasted so long 436 00:21:33.180 --> 00:21:35.040 has been the sexing up 437 00:21:35.040 --> 00:21:36.540 and the cherry-picking of data. 438 00:21:37.080 --> 00:21:39.100 This will be familiar to all of us 439 00:21:39.100 --> 00:21:41.180 from the lead-up to the invasion of Iraq 440 00:21:41.180 --> 00:21:42.260 in March 2003. 441 00:21:43.040 --> 00:21:45.580 In leaked minutes of the War Cabinet meeting 442 00:21:45.580 --> 00:21:48.260 in the 10 Downing Street on 23 July 2002, 443 00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:50.860 Sir Richard Dearlove, 444 00:21:51.080 --> 00:21:53.140 head of MI6, known as C, 445 00:21:53.380 --> 00:21:55.960 was reported to have said of US policy-making 446 00:21:55.960 --> 00:21:57.820 in the United States at that time, 447 00:21:57.920 --> 00:21:59.840 but the intelligence and facts 448 00:21:59.840 --> 00:22:01.820 were being fixed around the policy. 449 00:22:02.060 --> 00:22:05.140 This is a very familiar situation, unfortunately, 450 00:22:05.240 --> 00:22:06.400 in the war against drugs. 451 00:22:07.720 --> 00:22:09.560 Why does drug prohibition persist? 452 00:22:10.100 --> 00:22:12.240 As H.L. Mencken, the director of the Institute 453 00:22:12.260 --> 00:22:13.140 for Drug Policy and the Institute for Drug Policy, 454 00:22:13.140 --> 00:22:15.080 former commentator from the Baltimore Sun, said, 455 00:22:15.220 --> 00:22:17.200 the whole aim of practical politics 456 00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:19.660 is to keep the population alarmed 457 00:22:20.260 --> 00:22:22.140 and hence clamorous to be led to safety 458 00:22:22.140 --> 00:22:25.420 by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, 459 00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:26.880 all of them imaginary. 460 00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:30.960 The dilemma we have is that effective drug policies 461 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:32.640 are unpopular, 462 00:22:32.780 --> 00:22:35.440 while popular drug policies 463 00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:36.580 are often ineffective. 464 00:22:37.040 --> 00:22:39.620 The attraction of drug prohibition 465 00:22:39.620 --> 00:22:41.580 is that it sounds intuitively 466 00:22:41.580 --> 00:22:42.740 as though it ought to work. 467 00:22:43.140 --> 00:22:44.860 The attraction of drug law reform 468 00:22:44.860 --> 00:22:46.840 is that it is based on evidence, 469 00:22:47.080 --> 00:22:49.440 but what makes it hard to advocate for 470 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:51.500 is that it sounds counterintuitive. 471 00:22:51.980 --> 00:22:54.000 So the debate about drug law reform 472 00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:56.080 is marked like many other debates, 473 00:22:56.140 --> 00:22:58.500 such as the debate about economic protectionism. 474 00:22:59.500 --> 00:23:00.640 What are the alternatives? 475 00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:04.640 The threshold step is to regard illicit drugs 476 00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:06.680 as primarily a health and social issue. 477 00:23:06.940 --> 00:23:09.680 Of course, there will always be an important role 478 00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:10.900 for drug law enforcement. 479 00:23:11.580 --> 00:23:13.600 But drug law enforcement should not be forced 480 00:23:13.600 --> 00:23:16.780 to carry almost the entire burden of drug policy. 481 00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:20.520 That clearly has only worked in the past 482 00:23:20.520 --> 00:23:21.720 as a political strategy 483 00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:23.980 and hasn't worked as a public policy. 484 00:23:25.540 --> 00:23:27.340 Funding for health and social interventions 485 00:23:27.340 --> 00:23:30.540 should be increased to the level of drug law enforcement. 486 00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:32.500 To achieve better outcomes, 487 00:23:32.840 --> 00:23:34.680 policy must be based on evidence, 488 00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:37.500 and policymakers should fund policy options 489 00:23:37.500 --> 00:23:40.580 to get the best return on the public investment. 490 00:23:41.580 --> 00:23:43.720 Penalties for drug possession and consumption 491 00:23:43.720 --> 00:23:46.360 should be reduced to small civil sanctions, 492 00:23:46.540 --> 00:23:47.920 or preferably eliminated. 493 00:23:49.180 --> 00:23:50.800 Treatment of drug users should play 494 00:23:50.800 --> 00:23:52.120 a much more important role, 495 00:23:52.300 --> 00:23:54.880 and this can only happen if the capacity 496 00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:56.720 of the drug treatment system is expanded, 497 00:23:57.040 --> 00:23:58.460 its quality is improved, 498 00:23:58.780 --> 00:24:00.200 and the range of treatment options 499 00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:01.840 is considerably broadened. 500 00:24:02.340 --> 00:24:04.320 There are increasing calls for taxation 501 00:24:04.320 --> 00:24:05.700 and regulation of cannabis. 502 00:24:06.320 --> 00:24:08.600 Cannabis accounts for a considerable proportion 503 00:24:08.600 --> 00:24:11.440 of the cash flow associated with illicit drugs, 504 00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:12.600 including in Australia, 505 00:24:12.820 --> 00:24:16.120 and taking most of that cash flow out of the black market 506 00:24:16.120 --> 00:24:17.700 will have considerable benefits. 507 00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:21.340 When all or most of these steps have been taken, 508 00:24:21.520 --> 00:24:23.420 there may be a small role 509 00:24:23.420 --> 00:24:26.100 for allowing the recreational sale... 510 00:24:26.100 --> 00:24:28.380 Sorry, the sale, the commercial sale, 511 00:24:28.540 --> 00:24:31.300 of small quantities of dilute samples 512 00:24:31.300 --> 00:24:32.920 of recreational drugs. 513 00:24:33.840 --> 00:24:36.660 We should remember that this would not be a new policy, 514 00:24:36.740 --> 00:24:38.660 but a return to a former policy. 515 00:24:39.220 --> 00:24:41.360 Before 1906 in Australia, 516 00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:42.040 as I've mentioned, 517 00:24:42.180 --> 00:24:44.720 edible opium was taxed and sold in grocery stores. 518 00:24:45.100 --> 00:24:48.620 Before 1913, Coca-Cola contained cocaine. 519 00:24:49.100 --> 00:24:50.400 In terms of prevention, 520 00:24:50.680 --> 00:24:52.780 we should aim to reduce economic inequality. 521 00:24:53.480 --> 00:24:56.000 More unequal communities have more problems 522 00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:56.900 with illicit drugs. 523 00:24:59.800 --> 00:25:02.160 Global drug consumption... 524 00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:05.140 Sorry, global drug prohibition began 100 years ago. 525 00:25:05.440 --> 00:25:07.540 It has not achieved its aim of reducing 526 00:25:07.540 --> 00:25:09.340 the recreational use of illicit drugs 527 00:25:09.340 --> 00:25:11.140 or ensuring that the supply 528 00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:13.840 of these drugs for medicinal purposes is adequate. 529 00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:17.180 Drug prohibition has failed comprehensively. 530 00:25:17.220 --> 00:25:19.260 It cannot be made to work effectively. 531 00:25:19.600 --> 00:25:21.800 This is now being increasingly recognised. 532 00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:25.740 Political elites have known this for a long time. 533 00:25:26.060 --> 00:25:28.120 It has survived because in the past 534 00:25:28.120 --> 00:25:30.380 it has been an effective political strategy. 535 00:25:31.120 --> 00:25:34.240 The debate about drug policy has been very dishonest. 536 00:25:34.420 --> 00:25:35.960 Just as in the Iraq war, 537 00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:38.400 data has been sexed up and cherry-picked. 538 00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:40.380 There is a recent realisation 539 00:25:40.380 --> 00:25:42.400 that drug law reform is now feasible. 540 00:25:43.380 --> 00:25:45.500 If we consider the alternatives to current policy, 541 00:25:45.660 --> 00:25:48.600 the most important step is to redefine drugs 542 00:25:48.600 --> 00:25:50.820 as primarily a health and social problem. 543 00:25:51.260 --> 00:25:53.780 There are many terrible ways to use illicit drugs, 544 00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:57.320 but the worst way of all is to use illicit drugs 545 00:25:57.320 --> 00:25:58.620 for political purposes. 546 00:25:58.900 --> 00:25:59.460 Thank you. 547 00:26:04.780 --> 00:26:06.820 Ladies and gentlemen, if we can hear, 548 00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:08.880 that sounds good on my microphone. 549 00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:11.640 Alex has a microphone as well, 550 00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:13.560 and I see a number of hands, 551 00:26:13.640 --> 00:26:16.080 and we have a roving microphone. 552 00:26:16.540 --> 00:26:18.240 I see the first question here. 553 00:26:18.360 --> 00:26:21.180 Keep those hands up so I can kind of spy you as we go. 554 00:26:21.800 --> 00:26:23.100 I'm ready to be spied. 555 00:26:23.120 --> 00:26:23.420 Away we go. 556 00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:26.480 Thank you, Alex, for this very passionate 557 00:26:26.480 --> 00:26:30.860 and clear-minded call for reality. 558 00:26:31.780 --> 00:26:36.180 It is clear that the call is to, if you like, decriminalise 559 00:26:36.180 --> 00:26:38.780 and to regard the use of drugs 560 00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:39.860 as a social issue. 561 00:26:40.580 --> 00:26:43.300 I'm a neuroscientist, and about 20 years ago, 562 00:26:43.360 --> 00:26:45.300 I was actually the first director 563 00:26:45.300 --> 00:26:48.100 of a National Medical Research Council unit 564 00:26:48.100 --> 00:26:51.060 for drug addiction, searching for the cellular basis. 565 00:26:51.460 --> 00:26:53.460 And some of us realised immediately 566 00:26:53.460 --> 00:26:55.160 that no matter what we would discover, 567 00:26:55.480 --> 00:26:58.160 that we wouldn't have any impact in the actual policies. 568 00:26:58.620 --> 00:27:00.540 And my question to you is that, 569 00:27:00.600 --> 00:27:03.880 do you think that the big difficulty 570 00:27:03.880 --> 00:27:07.700 is with the public and the politicians 571 00:27:07.700 --> 00:27:11.360 who really have regarded drug use 572 00:27:11.360 --> 00:27:15.020 as a moral issue, and they called it as an evil, 573 00:27:15.640 --> 00:27:19.460 without any consideration about the actual real harm 574 00:27:19.460 --> 00:27:21.220 that the drug may or may not do, 575 00:27:21.380 --> 00:27:24.080 and I know enough about the harm that it can do, 576 00:27:24.220 --> 00:27:25.800 but also the limit of this harm? 577 00:27:26.020 --> 00:27:28.080 And this comes from modern studies. 578 00:27:28.180 --> 00:27:30.660 As a neuroscientist, I know, because I teach that, 579 00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:32.940 that most of these drugs that we call drugs 580 00:27:32.940 --> 00:27:36.880 are really similar to substances that we have 581 00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:37.820 in our own brain. 582 00:27:38.220 --> 00:27:41.320 And modern research begins to reveal 583 00:27:41.780 --> 00:27:44.860 the ways in which we might become addicted to some of them, 584 00:27:44.920 --> 00:27:49.160 not all of them, and the potential worst toxic side effects 585 00:27:49.160 --> 00:27:52.600 of the use of the drug, but also a very potentially good use 586 00:27:52.600 --> 00:27:54.780 of these drugs, which at the moment is prohibited. 587 00:27:54.980 --> 00:27:56.340 So the harm is really very high. 588 00:27:56.500 --> 00:27:59.220 How would you go about to step into this area 589 00:27:59.220 --> 00:28:00.920 of biological role of these drugs? 590 00:28:03.020 --> 00:28:03.820 Well, thank you. 591 00:28:03.860 --> 00:28:06.860 That's a fascinating and very important series of questions. 592 00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:12.180 In two parts, you asked about the community attitudes, 593 00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:16.800 and there's no doubt that community attitudes are changing, 594 00:28:17.060 --> 00:28:21.140 but there's no doubt that also when you look at other areas 595 00:28:21.140 --> 00:28:22.860 where social policy is considered, 596 00:28:23.060 --> 00:28:25.180 that change takes a long time. 597 00:28:27.140 --> 00:28:30.460 The National Association for the Advancement of Coloured People 598 00:28:30.460 --> 00:28:32.760 in the United States was established in 1909, 599 00:28:33.020 --> 00:28:36.860 took 100 years from the establishment of the NAACP, 600 00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:39.400 to the first black president taking office. 601 00:28:39.760 --> 00:28:47.000 The argument about the unequal treatment of women in our community, 602 00:28:47.100 --> 00:28:50.460 the intellectual debate such as it was, was over 40 years ago. 603 00:28:50.660 --> 00:28:54.380 But we still haven't seen...we've seen some change, 604 00:28:54.640 --> 00:28:56.460 but we've seen nowhere near enough. 605 00:28:57.260 --> 00:29:04.720 The Wolfenden Report into recommending that sexual behaviour 606 00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:06.580 between males... 607 00:29:08.020 --> 00:29:11.720 females...same-sex couples in private and consenting 608 00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:14.840 should not be subject to criminal sanctions, 609 00:29:15.700 --> 00:29:18.160 you know, that was in the 50s and 60s, 610 00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:21.640 and it took another 40 years before that result. 611 00:29:21.840 --> 00:29:24.280 We're now up to civil unions in the United Kingdom 612 00:29:24.280 --> 00:29:26.000 and haven't even got to that stage in Australia. 613 00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:28.620 So these changes take a long time, 614 00:29:30.060 --> 00:29:32.920 and we shouldn't underestimate the fear factor. 615 00:29:33.100 --> 00:29:35.900 But it's clear now that in many countries, 616 00:29:35.900 --> 00:29:38.320 the population is ahead of the politicians. 617 00:29:39.240 --> 00:29:41.700 It's the politicians who are really most fearful 618 00:29:41.700 --> 00:29:43.480 of dipping their toe into the water. 619 00:29:43.860 --> 00:29:46.520 And until recently, they paid a heavy price 620 00:29:46.520 --> 00:29:48.320 if they moved in this area, 621 00:29:48.440 --> 00:29:50.240 but it's clear that things are changing. 622 00:29:52.360 --> 00:29:56.580 Obama campaigned in 2004 for the Senate in Illinois 623 00:29:56.580 --> 00:29:59.680 on a ticket...on a list of things 624 00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:01.640 which included decriminalisation of drugs. 625 00:30:01.840 --> 00:30:03.740 He didn't use that in 2008. 626 00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:07.980 Obama has said the war on drugs is an utter failure. 627 00:30:08.140 --> 00:30:09.060 He said that in the Senate. 628 00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:12.360 He said he's in favour of shifting the paradigm 629 00:30:12.360 --> 00:30:13.720 to a public health paradigm. 630 00:30:14.680 --> 00:30:16.380 So things are moving on, 631 00:30:17.360 --> 00:30:19.300 but I think it's a little bit like 632 00:30:19.300 --> 00:30:22.520 the paper, scissors and rock game that the children play, 633 00:30:22.780 --> 00:30:26.200 and the sort of the three elements we deal with 634 00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:29.880 are fear, evidence and rationality, 635 00:30:29.940 --> 00:30:33.720 and most of the time, fear wins in the short term, 636 00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:37.960 but in the long term, evidence and rationality does win. 637 00:30:38.180 --> 00:30:41.320 In relation to the neuroscience elements, 638 00:30:41.640 --> 00:30:43.700 I don't dismiss that work. 639 00:30:43.780 --> 00:30:45.360 I think that work is helpful. 640 00:30:45.620 --> 00:30:48.200 The more we can understand this difficult problem, the better, 641 00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:51.420 and it does give us insight into different ways of treating 642 00:30:51.960 --> 00:30:54.120 people with drug and alcohol problems, 643 00:30:54.260 --> 00:30:56.000 and that can only be beneficial... 644 00:30:56.000 --> 00:30:59.740 We've benefited enormously from things we've made. 645 00:31:00.060 --> 00:31:01.500 Just...this will be familiar to you, 646 00:31:01.560 --> 00:31:03.500 but during the Vietnam War, 647 00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:07.360 President Nixon was terrified about the political consequences 648 00:31:07.360 --> 00:31:10.580 of so many US servicemen coming back to the United States 649 00:31:10.580 --> 00:31:11.380 addicted to heroin, 650 00:31:11.500 --> 00:31:15.980 and he gave a billion dollars in 1970s money 651 00:31:15.980 --> 00:31:17.460 to the National Institute of Health, 652 00:31:17.520 --> 00:31:22.380 and out of that was identified the opiate receptor in the brain 653 00:31:22.380 --> 00:31:27.840 and also the system of chemicals that you referred to in the body 654 00:31:27.840 --> 00:31:29.720 that are like opium, 655 00:31:30.260 --> 00:31:33.240 that allow opium to act on our bodies. 656 00:31:33.300 --> 00:31:33.700 So... 657 00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:36.460 And out of that came the drugs naloxone and naltrexone. 658 00:31:36.600 --> 00:31:39.120 So there are benefits of basic research, 659 00:31:40.700 --> 00:31:42.620 and I certainly support it. 660 00:31:43.180 --> 00:31:45.960 OK, so the microphone is moving fairly quickly. 661 00:31:46.380 --> 00:31:48.620 I'm going to go with the gentleman in the brown shirt. 662 00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:51.080 Straight after him will be the woman in the black jacket, 663 00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:52.820 the man in the stocking cap... 664 00:31:56.320 --> 00:31:59.100 ..and Dean with his hand up with the piece of paper, 665 00:31:59.180 --> 00:32:01.880 and see how we go, because we only have 15 minutes to go. 666 00:32:01.980 --> 00:32:03.700 Four quick questions, no speeches. 667 00:32:03.700 --> 00:32:04.560 Quick answers. 668 00:32:06.700 --> 00:32:09.860 Alex, is it possible for those of us who are interested 669 00:32:09.860 --> 00:32:13.000 to get that list of statistics 670 00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:15.700 so that we can use it against our politicians, etc? 671 00:32:16.500 --> 00:32:16.600 Sure. 672 00:32:16.600 --> 00:32:17.240 I'm sure we'll be... 673 00:32:17.240 --> 00:32:18.620 Where can we get it? 674 00:32:20.020 --> 00:32:24.680 If you write to me, awodak, A-W-O-D-A-K, 675 00:32:24.900 --> 00:32:27.940 my first name and surname, 676 00:32:28.300 --> 00:32:33.300 at St Vincent's, S-T-V-I-N-C-E-N-T-S dot C-O-M, 677 00:32:33.300 --> 00:32:35.600 dot A-U. 678 00:32:36.280 --> 00:32:38.420 awodak at stvincents.com.au. 679 00:32:38.580 --> 00:32:39.680 I'll happily send it to you. 680 00:32:40.560 --> 00:32:41.080 OK. 681 00:32:41.240 --> 00:32:41.720 OK. 682 00:32:41.880 --> 00:32:44.220 I wanted to ask about the international conventions 683 00:32:44.220 --> 00:32:46.020 that govern drug policy 684 00:32:46.020 --> 00:32:48.580 and do tend towards a prohibition stance 685 00:32:48.580 --> 00:32:50.440 and how we can work with that. 686 00:32:50.540 --> 00:32:51.340 That's one question. 687 00:32:51.400 --> 00:32:53.660 My second one is, who's going to run for cover 688 00:32:53.660 --> 00:32:54.620 and who's going to panic 689 00:32:54.620 --> 00:32:57.220 if we decriminalise all those drugs tomorrow? 690 00:32:57.440 --> 00:32:59.600 So basically, whose interests are served 691 00:32:59.600 --> 00:33:01.780 by continued criminalisation? 692 00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:04.300 OK. 693 00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:12.020 Well, the conventions are sort of set in stone. 694 00:33:13.260 --> 00:33:13.860 When... 695 00:33:13.860 --> 00:33:16.560 I'm not an international law expert, 696 00:33:16.860 --> 00:33:20.540 but when the international law experts look at the treaties, 697 00:33:21.260 --> 00:33:23.400 it's common for them to say two things. 698 00:33:23.480 --> 00:33:26.000 One is that when they read them superficially, 699 00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:29.380 they seem impregnable, like a sort of fortress. 700 00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:32.760 But when they look at them more carefully, 701 00:33:32.820 --> 00:33:33.280 they're not impregnable. 702 00:33:33.280 --> 00:33:35.360 There are lots of opportunities. 703 00:33:35.820 --> 00:33:41.480 For example, the three treaties require the parties, 704 00:33:41.540 --> 00:33:44.140 that is, member states that have signed up to these treaties, 705 00:33:44.280 --> 00:33:46.860 to provide treatment and rehabilitation, 706 00:33:47.100 --> 00:33:51.220 and they never define what treatment and rehabilitation constitutes. 707 00:33:51.700 --> 00:33:55.280 So there's opportunity for great latitude there. 708 00:33:55.460 --> 00:34:00.440 Another important caveat in the whole system 709 00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:02.540 is that the... 710 00:34:03.280 --> 00:34:06.760 The treaties say that domestic law and domestic constitutions 711 00:34:06.760 --> 00:34:10.780 are dominant over what's contained in the treaties. 712 00:34:11.400 --> 00:34:14.800 Another important phenomenon that we should all bear in mind 713 00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:18.340 is that when the United Nations was set up in 1945, 714 00:34:19.160 --> 00:34:23.180 the three primary objectives were national security, 715 00:34:23.580 --> 00:34:25.700 economic development and human rights. 716 00:34:26.100 --> 00:34:31.260 And those are the primary goals 717 00:34:31.260 --> 00:34:33.360 of the United Nations system. 718 00:34:33.540 --> 00:34:36.320 And the drug commitments are subordinate 719 00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:37.720 to those other commitments. 720 00:34:38.100 --> 00:34:40.580 So where there's a clash between human rights and drugs, 721 00:34:40.840 --> 00:34:44.260 human rights should be dominant. 722 00:34:44.600 --> 00:34:47.780 So the more you look at it, the more chinks you see. 723 00:34:48.020 --> 00:34:51.320 Changing any United Nations international treaty 724 00:34:51.320 --> 00:34:55.520 is formidably difficult and takes decades to do. 725 00:34:55.640 --> 00:34:59.900 If we were to write a treaty now 726 00:34:59.900 --> 00:35:01.200 saying that there should be 727 00:35:01.260 --> 00:35:04.280 37 days in the week and 365 days in the year 728 00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:06.440 and when it's dark, we'll be called night 729 00:35:06.440 --> 00:35:07.940 and when it's light, we'll be called day, 730 00:35:08.120 --> 00:35:11.160 it'd take decades to get agreement about that. 731 00:35:12.620 --> 00:35:18.200 So I wouldn't hold out scrapping the treaties. 732 00:35:18.660 --> 00:35:19.800 That'll take centuries. 733 00:35:20.220 --> 00:35:21.260 We're stuck with them. 734 00:35:21.400 --> 00:35:24.100 But in fact, the truth is, or at least my view is, 735 00:35:24.240 --> 00:35:27.120 that almost all the things we would want to do, 736 00:35:27.180 --> 00:35:28.620 we can do within the treaties anyway. 737 00:35:29.560 --> 00:35:31.240 Your second point is very important. 738 00:35:31.260 --> 00:35:34.560 Who wins, quo bono? 739 00:35:34.860 --> 00:35:39.560 And the answer is that drug law enforcement's 740 00:35:39.560 --> 00:35:40.720 done very well out of this. 741 00:35:41.520 --> 00:35:43.640 Prisoners' unions have done very well out of this. 742 00:35:43.740 --> 00:35:47.120 And just last November, when President Obama was elected, 743 00:35:47.700 --> 00:35:51.460 the people of California had a plebiscite that they answered to, 744 00:35:51.580 --> 00:35:54.660 which California, the state of California, 745 00:35:54.700 --> 00:35:55.740 owes $26 billion. 746 00:35:56.140 --> 00:35:56.960 It's bankrupt. 747 00:35:57.620 --> 00:36:00.420 And this would have, if passed, would have shifted 748 00:36:00.420 --> 00:36:05.300 a billion dollars from the prisons' budget into drug treatment 749 00:36:05.300 --> 00:36:07.340 and would have saved the state of California 750 00:36:07.340 --> 00:36:08.960 $2.5 billion a year. 751 00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:12.480 And it did very, very well in the opinion polls 752 00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:15.580 until the prisons' union came out against it. 753 00:36:15.720 --> 00:36:18.180 And Governor Schwarzenegger, 754 00:36:18.240 --> 00:36:21.320 plus the four previous governors of California, 755 00:36:21.540 --> 00:36:24.320 all stood up at a press conference and denounced it. 756 00:36:24.420 --> 00:36:29.840 And so that bill lost 60-40 in the plebiscite. 757 00:36:32.100 --> 00:36:34.740 So it's fairly clear that there are... 758 00:36:34.740 --> 00:36:40.360 that the people who are benefiting from drug law enforcement-based drug policy 759 00:36:40.360 --> 00:36:45.060 are very prominent in the debate to keep things as they are. 760 00:36:45.400 --> 00:36:46.560 OK. Man of the Brownshirt. 761 00:36:47.080 --> 00:36:48.100 Two brief questions. 762 00:36:48.200 --> 00:36:50.600 First one, why am I paying so much for my drugs? 763 00:36:50.940 --> 00:36:52.680 And the second one is... 764 00:36:52.680 --> 00:36:53.540 Sorry, I didn't hear that. 765 00:36:53.740 --> 00:36:56.720 The first question is, why am I paying so much for my drugs, 766 00:36:56.840 --> 00:36:59.740 given that all of your graphs were showing the price were dropping? 767 00:37:00.420 --> 00:37:01.400 That's legal drugs. 768 00:37:03.220 --> 00:37:03.940 Illegal ones. 769 00:37:04.640 --> 00:37:06.080 And the second one was, 770 00:37:06.780 --> 00:37:09.500 do you think that scientists and researchers 771 00:37:09.500 --> 00:37:13.040 have a greater role to play in entering the political foray 772 00:37:14.220 --> 00:37:17.200 by...not by challenging governments to produce particular policies, 773 00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:19.760 but to challenge that those policies lead to the outcomes 774 00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:20.660 that the governments state? 775 00:37:21.580 --> 00:37:23.480 I mean, I know you're doing it now, and that's fantastic. 776 00:37:23.620 --> 00:37:26.800 Is there more capacity within science to do that? 777 00:37:28.820 --> 00:37:29.820 I presume you mean... 778 00:37:29.820 --> 00:37:30.560 I'm referring to cannabis. 779 00:37:30.660 --> 00:37:32.760 Cannabis is very expensive in Australia. 780 00:37:34.220 --> 00:37:36.140 Overall, just for your information, 781 00:37:36.720 --> 00:37:41.020 the UNODC has estimated that the turnover of illicit drugs in the world 782 00:37:41.020 --> 00:37:44.360 is US$322 billion a year, 783 00:37:44.540 --> 00:37:48.860 and the strategy unit of the British Cabinet that I mentioned 784 00:37:49.820 --> 00:37:53.220 estimated that profit accounts for 26% to 58% 785 00:37:53.820 --> 00:37:56.840 of turnover of major drug traffickers in Afghanistan. 786 00:37:57.820 --> 00:37:59.520 So one of the reasons 787 00:38:00.860 --> 00:38:04.640 why cannabis prices are high in Australia 788 00:38:04.640 --> 00:38:09.200 is probably largely due to cannabis law enforcement. 789 00:38:09.420 --> 00:38:12.180 But prices dropped a lot in the 1990s 790 00:38:12.180 --> 00:38:19.240 when drug law enforcement went down in Australia against cannabis, 791 00:38:19.400 --> 00:38:26.300 and also when cannabis production shifted into the indoors. 792 00:38:26.640 --> 00:38:29.720 There were huge economies. 793 00:38:29.820 --> 00:38:31.300 And that was passed on to the consumer. 794 00:38:31.520 --> 00:38:35.240 So cannabis prices dropped about 50% in the 1990s. 795 00:38:35.640 --> 00:38:37.960 Kenneth Clements in Western Australia works on that. 796 00:38:38.280 --> 00:38:40.260 Now, your second question was... 797 00:38:42.780 --> 00:38:45.520 Look, I've been doing this stuff for a quarter of a century, 798 00:38:45.560 --> 00:38:49.500 and the evidence really does make a difference, 799 00:38:49.700 --> 00:38:51.400 really makes a huge difference. 800 00:38:51.640 --> 00:38:53.980 And there's... 801 00:38:53.980 --> 00:38:55.840 You wouldn't notice it from within Australia 802 00:38:55.840 --> 00:38:58.260 because that process hasn't started yet, 803 00:38:58.260 --> 00:39:01.260 but the process of accepting drug law reform 804 00:39:01.260 --> 00:39:03.900 is now really moving rapidly around the world. 805 00:39:04.900 --> 00:39:08.180 In February, Governor Schwarzenegger said, 806 00:39:08.480 --> 00:39:11.400 let's have a debate about legalising cannabis in California 807 00:39:11.400 --> 00:39:15.500 as a way of reducing the debt of the Californian government. 808 00:39:16.200 --> 00:39:23.680 We've had three former presidents of Mexico, Colombia and Brazil 809 00:39:25.020 --> 00:39:28.240 in February coming out saying the war on drugs has failed, 810 00:39:28.260 --> 00:39:32.300 and calling for this kind of debate. 811 00:39:32.520 --> 00:39:36.140 So the arguments are really now starting to bite. 812 00:39:36.300 --> 00:39:38.620 There are many other examples I could give you. 813 00:39:38.640 --> 00:39:42.800 Just on Friday, the German parliament has allowed 814 00:39:44.840 --> 00:39:47.320 heroin prescription treatment to be available 815 00:39:47.320 --> 00:39:50.880 as a normal part of the medical system in Germany. 816 00:39:51.060 --> 00:39:53.320 So things are moving, particularly in Europe, 817 00:39:53.360 --> 00:39:54.940 but also in the United States. 818 00:39:55.120 --> 00:39:57.260 And what's changing it, the difference, 819 00:39:57.260 --> 00:39:58.360 has been the evidence. 820 00:39:58.500 --> 00:39:59.360 The evidence is overwhelming. 821 00:40:00.500 --> 00:40:02.280 Let me just pause here and say we have a question 822 00:40:02.280 --> 00:40:03.160 from the woman in the jacket. 823 00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:05.400 A man in the stocking cap and Dean Dowling, 824 00:40:05.400 --> 00:40:06.200 they're the ones I promised, 825 00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:07.960 and I would die if I can't get to them. 826 00:40:08.160 --> 00:40:09.880 So nice short questions, please. 827 00:40:10.220 --> 00:40:10.560 Thank you. 828 00:40:11.160 --> 00:40:13.720 In light of your comments regarding drug reform 829 00:40:13.720 --> 00:40:15.760 and how that's presently viewed internationally, 830 00:40:16.140 --> 00:40:18.900 at a recent plenary meeting of the UNODC, 831 00:40:21.400 --> 00:40:25.860 an American NGO made some rather positive comments 832 00:40:25.860 --> 00:40:28.820 in relation to the removal of drug prohibition, 833 00:40:28.940 --> 00:40:32.620 coupled with your comments in relation to Obama's view 834 00:40:32.620 --> 00:40:33.640 in relation to it. 835 00:40:33.700 --> 00:40:37.600 And given that the United States holds a fairly prominent position 836 00:40:37.600 --> 00:40:40.780 in the UNODC and its view in relation to drug reform 837 00:40:40.780 --> 00:40:43.440 and drug prohibition, generally my questions are twofold. 838 00:40:43.660 --> 00:40:47.380 One, do you see that internationally, 839 00:40:47.640 --> 00:40:50.160 if there is a political will internationally, 840 00:40:50.520 --> 00:40:53.860 which is perhaps fostered by America in some degree 841 00:40:54.440 --> 00:40:55.840 in the UNODC, 842 00:40:55.840 --> 00:40:59.060 that would make it much simpler for countries 843 00:40:59.060 --> 00:41:01.140 to actually approach drug reform? 844 00:41:01.580 --> 00:41:04.760 Secondly, my question is, do you see a role, 845 00:41:04.900 --> 00:41:06.160 an active role for NGOs, 846 00:41:06.840 --> 00:41:09.720 given that there was an NGO forum at the UNODC 847 00:41:09.720 --> 00:41:13.560 that made a political stand in relation to drug prohibition this year? 848 00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:15.880 Yes. 849 00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:19.080 The short answer to that is yes and yes. 850 00:41:20.240 --> 00:41:23.540 If the United States moves a millimetre on drug policy, 851 00:41:23.640 --> 00:41:25.320 the rest of the world can move a metre. 852 00:41:25.900 --> 00:41:27.500 And I do... 853 00:41:27.500 --> 00:41:31.520 A lot of what I do about several months of the year, 854 00:41:31.580 --> 00:41:35.660 I travel mainly in Asia, a little bit in Middle East, 855 00:41:35.780 --> 00:41:40.420 Central Asia, South America a bit, in this kind of area, 856 00:41:40.580 --> 00:41:45.480 and doing international consultancies and the like 857 00:41:45.480 --> 00:41:49.640 to do with HIV prevention and drug policy. 858 00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:55.100 And it's very clear that the United States has extraordinary influence 859 00:41:55.100 --> 00:41:57.060 on countries around the world. 860 00:41:57.100 --> 00:42:01.080 And a very common question that I get asked when I do these consultancies, 861 00:42:01.140 --> 00:42:03.860 why should we do that if the United States is not doing it? 862 00:42:04.060 --> 00:42:06.300 Well, the United States is about to start doing it. 863 00:42:06.340 --> 00:42:10.500 On February 12th, they released the Chargé d'affaires in Vienna. 864 00:42:11.500 --> 00:42:13.160 The US Chargé d'affaires announced 865 00:42:13.160 --> 00:42:15.880 that the US was no longer against harm reduction, 866 00:42:16.160 --> 00:42:18.120 which was a major step forward. 867 00:42:18.240 --> 00:42:21.280 But he said, but we define harm reduction 868 00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:25.080 to include needle syringe programs and methadone, 869 00:42:25.100 --> 00:42:29.400 and we don't include injecting rooms 870 00:42:29.400 --> 00:42:31.660 and heroin trials in harm reduction. 871 00:42:32.040 --> 00:42:34.940 So the United States is certainly changing. 872 00:42:38.180 --> 00:42:41.660 Your comments about NGOs are very important. 873 00:42:42.320 --> 00:42:45.960 I attended the NGO forum in Vienna last July, 874 00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:49.580 and there were 300 people from all over the world. 875 00:42:50.120 --> 00:42:52.320 How they got there is another question, 876 00:42:52.420 --> 00:42:55.080 but China, 1.3 billion people, 877 00:42:55.100 --> 00:42:57.820 and was represented by one person who wasn't even Chinese. 878 00:42:58.960 --> 00:43:01.900 New Zealand had eight people and Australia had ten people. 879 00:43:02.300 --> 00:43:09.980 So let's not question the representativeness too closely. 880 00:43:10.280 --> 00:43:12.260 But what was clear at that meeting 881 00:43:12.260 --> 00:43:14.920 was that three-quarters of the people in the room 882 00:43:14.920 --> 00:43:18.500 had views that were fairly similar to the kind of views 883 00:43:18.500 --> 00:43:23.120 that I've indicated and I suspect many people here today have. 884 00:43:24.180 --> 00:43:27.960 And that was the first time UNODC had ever tolerated 885 00:43:27.960 --> 00:43:31.020 NGOs taking part in the policy-making process. 886 00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:33.260 And it was a very positive experience, 887 00:43:33.600 --> 00:43:35.680 and everybody remarked upon it, 888 00:43:35.720 --> 00:43:37.680 including many of the UNODC staff. 889 00:43:37.940 --> 00:43:42.860 And now the role of civil society in the United Nations 890 00:43:42.860 --> 00:43:48.760 is being recognised as something that the whole UN system 891 00:43:48.760 --> 00:43:51.540 has to do better at engaging with, 892 00:43:51.540 --> 00:43:53.440 and frankly they are. 893 00:43:53.600 --> 00:43:56.840 And UNODC is one of the last major UN organisations 894 00:43:57.540 --> 00:44:01.100 to accept a role for civil society, but that's changing. 895 00:44:01.360 --> 00:44:03.680 So those of you who want to be involved in this 896 00:44:03.680 --> 00:44:06.540 from an NGO perspective, I'd urge you to do so. 897 00:44:06.780 --> 00:44:10.440 Look, the argument, it's very important we respect different opinions, 898 00:44:10.660 --> 00:44:13.060 very important that we base our arguments on evidence, 899 00:44:13.140 --> 00:44:16.640 and I hope I've done that this morning and on other occasions. 900 00:44:17.120 --> 00:44:19.160 And that's how the debate has to go. 901 00:44:19.300 --> 00:44:21.040 And if other people have different views, 902 00:44:21.540 --> 00:44:22.280 let's hear their evidence. 903 00:44:22.880 --> 00:44:25.580 OK, I promised to have you out of here in about two or three minutes, 904 00:44:25.620 --> 00:44:27.900 so we're going to have two short questions, no double-barrelled questions. 905 00:44:28.040 --> 00:44:28.660 Here's one here. 906 00:44:28.980 --> 00:44:32.600 I believe Portugal has had a massive change in its drug policy. 907 00:44:33.220 --> 00:44:34.320 How has this... 908 00:44:35.860 --> 00:44:37.560 What was the outcome of this, 909 00:44:37.700 --> 00:44:42.340 and how has it been taken up in the rest of the EU and the world? 910 00:44:43.340 --> 00:44:45.660 You can see how effective prohibition is. 911 00:44:48.360 --> 00:44:50.660 Well, the simple answer is 912 00:44:50.660 --> 00:44:53.140 Portugal decriminalised in 2001. 913 00:44:54.200 --> 00:44:58.540 I've heard the Portuguese drug policy experts speak at a private meeting, 914 00:44:58.620 --> 00:45:03.940 and they said that they looked at what was happening around Europe 915 00:45:03.940 --> 00:45:08.160 and the only countries that made sense were really Netherlands and Switzerland, 916 00:45:08.260 --> 00:45:11.380 but why did they introduce such limited reforms? 917 00:45:11.780 --> 00:45:13.940 So Portugal went a lot further, 918 00:45:14.020 --> 00:45:17.540 and the effects have been very dramatic and very positive 919 00:45:17.540 --> 00:45:20.640 and are being watched widely around Europe and around the world. 920 00:45:20.660 --> 00:45:26.440 And earlier this year, there was a very important paper from the Cato Institute, 921 00:45:26.820 --> 00:45:30.660 which is a free-market, economic, conservative, 922 00:45:31.480 --> 00:45:35.740 sort of libertarian think tank in the United States, Cato, C-A-T-O. 923 00:45:35.980 --> 00:45:37.400 So if you look it up on the website, 924 00:45:38.520 --> 00:45:40.960 you'll find this very important report 925 00:45:41.960 --> 00:45:45.900 packed full with facts and figures, more than I can give you in ten seconds, 926 00:45:46.060 --> 00:45:48.760 but basically it's been a very positive experience, 927 00:45:49.080 --> 00:45:50.640 and other countries are looking at it. 928 00:45:50.660 --> 00:45:51.520 So I think it's a very important thing to look at what Portugal's done 929 00:45:51.520 --> 00:45:54.400 and wanting to follow what Portugal's done. 930 00:45:55.320 --> 00:45:59.360 Profuse apologies to all those people who had a sea of hands before. 931 00:45:59.580 --> 00:46:01.240 Dean's going to submit the last question now. 932 00:46:01.360 --> 00:46:01.560 Yes. 933 00:46:01.800 --> 00:46:06.460 The prohibition of drugs is religious, and that's the problem. 934 00:46:06.740 --> 00:46:09.160 Now, you can torpedo the lying drug laws 935 00:46:09.160 --> 00:46:11.920 by telling the pharmacological truth. 936 00:46:12.100 --> 00:46:14.420 Go to Holland and India. 937 00:46:15.180 --> 00:46:17.260 Death rates, addiction rates and so on. 938 00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:20.420 And so that's the way to torpedo the drug laws. 939 00:46:20.660 --> 00:46:23.380 Tell the public the pharmacological truth. 940 00:46:24.940 --> 00:46:27.820 Heroin and cannabis are non-toxic. 941 00:46:29.200 --> 00:46:31.740 Let's have that as a question then, Alex. 942 00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:33.020 Are they toxic? 943 00:46:33.660 --> 00:46:34.940 Yes, of course they're toxic. 944 00:46:35.580 --> 00:46:40.980 All drugs are toxic, but it's more complicated than that. 945 00:46:41.020 --> 00:46:44.560 In medicine, what we look at isn't whether drugs are toxic or not, 946 00:46:44.640 --> 00:46:47.440 but we look at the ratio between the benefits and the toxicity. 947 00:46:47.980 --> 00:46:50.580 And when heroin is used medicinally, 948 00:46:51.640 --> 00:46:55.680 heroin is converted into opium within 60 seconds 949 00:46:55.680 --> 00:46:58.840 when it enters the human body. 950 00:46:59.500 --> 00:47:03.060 So heroin is really what we call a pro-drug. 951 00:47:03.060 --> 00:47:03.980 It's really morphine. 952 00:47:04.380 --> 00:47:08.560 And we use bucket loads of morphine in Australia every year, 953 00:47:08.660 --> 00:47:11.120 and the results are enormously beneficial. 954 00:47:11.340 --> 00:47:14.620 The problems exist, but they're relatively minor. 955 00:47:15.400 --> 00:47:19.700 There should be a revolution if anyone tries to get rid of morphine from Australia. 956 00:47:21.480 --> 00:47:22.840 It's a great drug. 957 00:47:23.860 --> 00:47:26.540 And heroin, when used medicinally, 958 00:47:26.720 --> 00:47:30.440 and this has been shown now in heroin trials in half a dozen countries, 959 00:47:30.560 --> 00:47:33.800 when we're using heroin to treat heroin-dependent people, 960 00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:37.680 the results similarly are enormously beneficial. 961 00:47:38.080 --> 00:47:43.180 We've now had randomized controlled trials from half a dozen countries, 962 00:47:43.360 --> 00:47:45.360 and they've all had very similar results. 963 00:47:45.720 --> 00:47:48.480 Benefits far outweighed any negatives. 964 00:47:48.840 --> 00:47:49.680 Thank you. 965 00:47:49.680 --> 00:47:54.680 And in India, epidemiological results... 966 00:47:55.720 --> 00:47:57.700 The randomized controlled trials have been carried out 967 00:47:57.700 --> 00:48:01.760 in Switzerland, Netherlands, Germany, Spain, Canada, 968 00:48:01.880 --> 00:48:04.020 and now Britain is doing one. 969 00:48:04.160 --> 00:48:06.520 And the British one obviously hasn't been reported, 970 00:48:06.620 --> 00:48:08.300 but all the others have been published, 971 00:48:08.780 --> 00:48:10.960 and they're all very, very favourable. 972 00:48:11.700 --> 00:48:13.900 Let me pause there to say that unfortunately 973 00:48:13.900 --> 00:48:16.980 we've come to the end of our time of this most interesting session. 974 00:48:17.340 --> 00:48:19.540 The only bit that I can add to it 975 00:48:19.680 --> 00:48:22.060 is listening to the comedian Jay Leno some years ago, 976 00:48:22.180 --> 00:48:26.560 who said at about the same time Nancy Reagan had this policy of just say no. 977 00:48:27.040 --> 00:48:28.540 Back in the 1980s, he said, 978 00:48:28.620 --> 00:48:32.240 as a result of just say no, 10,000 new addicts are being added every hour, 979 00:48:32.340 --> 00:48:34.640 and all you've got to do is shut Nancy Reagan up 980 00:48:34.640 --> 00:48:35.900 and the whole thing will fall in a hole. 981 00:48:36.940 --> 00:48:38.300 That was Jay Leno's view. 982 00:48:38.500 --> 00:48:42.540 I also want to point out that this is a massive disconnect and disjunction 983 00:48:42.540 --> 00:48:44.620 between public policy and the evidence, 984 00:48:44.800 --> 00:48:47.740 and one only has to see particularly the way in which Sandra Cank 985 00:48:47.740 --> 00:48:49.560 was vilified later last year, 986 00:48:49.680 --> 00:48:50.360 and earlier this year, 987 00:48:50.420 --> 00:48:52.040 simply for raising some of these issues, 988 00:48:52.200 --> 00:48:55.440 which highlights the delicate nature of this particular topic. 989 00:48:55.900 --> 00:48:58.860 So we're delighted today that Alex Werdick has, I think, 990 00:48:58.880 --> 00:49:01.600 brought some factual basis back to the debate 991 00:49:01.600 --> 00:49:03.780 and highlighting the evidence 992 00:49:03.780 --> 00:49:06.260 and highlighting some of the dilemmas associated with the policies 993 00:49:06.260 --> 00:49:07.900 that we still continue to endure. 994 00:49:08.500 --> 00:49:12.840 It behoves me and you, I think, to keep this debate going. 995 00:49:12.980 --> 00:49:14.820 We've been privileged to hear Alex today. 996 00:49:14.920 --> 00:49:16.800 Please join me in thanking him once again. 997 00:49:16.940 --> 00:49:17.300 Thank you. 998 00:49:19.680 --> 00:49:19.960 Thank you.