WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.160 Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. 2 00:00:02.360 --> 00:00:03.220 My name's John Hill. 3 00:00:03.360 --> 00:00:05.260 I'm the Minister for Health for South Australia. 4 00:00:05.540 --> 00:00:08.760 It's my pleasure to welcome you all here this afternoon, 5 00:00:09.000 --> 00:00:11.760 and particularly to welcome our guest speaker, Marion Nessel. 6 00:00:11.960 --> 00:00:14.880 I will introduce Marion more formally in a minute or two. 7 00:00:15.100 --> 00:00:17.700 Can I start by acknowledging the traditional owners 8 00:00:17.700 --> 00:00:19.580 of the land in which we're holding today's meeting, 9 00:00:19.820 --> 00:00:20.880 the Kaurna people. 10 00:00:21.700 --> 00:00:25.100 The topic for today's talk is what to eat, 11 00:00:25.160 --> 00:00:28.500 personal responsibility versus social responsibility. 12 00:00:28.500 --> 00:00:30.800 We know in South Australia, 13 00:00:30.880 --> 00:00:33.180 and we know in the Western world generally, 14 00:00:33.320 --> 00:00:35.820 that the major advances in health care 15 00:00:35.820 --> 00:00:38.580 have been brought about not by decisions by doctors, 16 00:00:38.780 --> 00:00:41.460 not by decisions that are taken in the medical context, 17 00:00:41.660 --> 00:00:44.260 but by decisions that are taken outside that context. 18 00:00:44.520 --> 00:00:48.700 The single most effective piece of public health policy ever 19 00:00:48.700 --> 00:00:52.140 was the separation of sewerage from drinking water. 20 00:00:52.380 --> 00:00:55.420 Now, that's led to many, many health benefits 21 00:00:55.420 --> 00:00:56.560 right across the world, 22 00:00:56.620 --> 00:00:58.380 but of course, in some countries, 23 00:00:58.500 --> 00:01:00.780 that separation still doesn't exist. 24 00:01:01.080 --> 00:01:03.100 The other great invention, I guess, 25 00:01:03.120 --> 00:01:06.020 which has more to do with the medical profession 26 00:01:06.020 --> 00:01:09.780 is the treatment of disease by inoculation. 27 00:01:10.380 --> 00:01:13.720 Immunisation generally has had huge public health benefits 28 00:01:13.720 --> 00:01:16.140 right across the world, 29 00:01:16.420 --> 00:01:19.120 and there are a number of other advances in medicine 30 00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:20.540 that have had similar effects. 31 00:01:21.280 --> 00:01:24.720 The introduction of various drugs, 32 00:01:24.780 --> 00:01:26.980 such as penicillin, 33 00:01:26.980 --> 00:01:28.420 which have been able to... 34 00:01:28.420 --> 00:01:28.480 ..to prevent cancer. 35 00:01:28.500 --> 00:01:30.920 To prevent people developing illnesses 36 00:01:30.920 --> 00:01:32.660 have had profound effects 37 00:01:32.660 --> 00:01:36.240 on the incidence of disease in our community 38 00:01:36.240 --> 00:01:39.000 to such an extent that many of the diseases 39 00:01:39.000 --> 00:01:42.480 which we knew in the past have really disappeared, 40 00:01:42.580 --> 00:01:44.700 particularly in a Western context. 41 00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:47.260 For example, in the 18th century, 42 00:01:48.040 --> 00:01:49.940 Jenner, I think, started the process 43 00:01:49.940 --> 00:01:53.140 by which smallpox was eradicated from the planet 44 00:01:53.140 --> 00:01:54.760 through the use of inoculations, 45 00:01:54.840 --> 00:01:58.300 and it was Fenner, Dr Fenner from Adelaide, 46 00:01:58.500 --> 00:02:00.840 who announced the eradication of smallpox 47 00:02:00.840 --> 00:02:01.960 in the 20th century. 48 00:02:02.260 --> 00:02:05.000 So from Jenner to Fenner, 200 years on, 49 00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:07.920 we've managed to get rid of this disease. 50 00:02:08.300 --> 00:02:09.780 I think it's still the only disease 51 00:02:09.780 --> 00:02:11.460 where we can safely say... 52 00:02:11.460 --> 00:02:14.320 ..which we can safely say has been eradicated from the world. 53 00:02:14.420 --> 00:02:16.380 This is all by way of introduction, 54 00:02:16.440 --> 00:02:19.240 because as a result of getting rid of these diseases, 55 00:02:19.420 --> 00:02:22.500 the disease which is now most affecting us 56 00:02:22.500 --> 00:02:25.180 in our Western context is a disease of lifestyle. 57 00:02:25.600 --> 00:02:28.100 We know that at least a third and probably more 58 00:02:28.100 --> 00:02:28.480 of our population are suffering from this disease. 59 00:02:28.480 --> 00:02:31.300 Of the things that cause people to go to hospitals in our state 60 00:02:31.300 --> 00:02:33.280 are what you might call lifestyle diseases. 61 00:02:33.780 --> 00:02:36.580 These are diseases associated with drinking too much, 62 00:02:36.640 --> 00:02:39.360 with taking too many drugs, smoking too much, 63 00:02:39.380 --> 00:02:41.260 and, of course, eating too much. 64 00:02:41.440 --> 00:02:43.500 These are diseases which can be prevented 65 00:02:43.500 --> 00:02:47.040 by changes in the way that people live their lives. 66 00:02:47.240 --> 00:02:49.780 We know as a result of the eating too much 67 00:02:49.780 --> 00:02:52.020 that we're seeing a whole range of diseases. 68 00:02:52.180 --> 00:02:55.540 Now, in incredibly young children, such as diabetes 2, 69 00:02:55.660 --> 00:02:58.140 which is normally something which you see later in life, 70 00:02:58.480 --> 00:03:01.660 kids as young as 10 or 11 are being affected by it now. 71 00:03:01.860 --> 00:03:05.420 We know that the incidence of children who are overweight or obese 72 00:03:05.420 --> 00:03:08.720 is growing at the rate of about 1% a year 73 00:03:08.720 --> 00:03:10.440 to quite frightening levels. 74 00:03:11.260 --> 00:03:13.960 We also know, of course, associated with obesity 75 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:16.640 and being overweight, a whole range of diseases 76 00:03:16.640 --> 00:03:20.500 such as kidney disease, heart disease, cancer, respiratory diseases. 77 00:03:20.760 --> 00:03:23.620 These diseases are causing people to end up in our hospitals 78 00:03:23.620 --> 00:03:27.120 and putting enormous pressure on our health system 79 00:03:27.120 --> 00:03:28.380 and putting... 80 00:03:28.480 --> 00:03:30.380 enormous pressure on our state's budget. 81 00:03:30.580 --> 00:03:35.360 The state spends approximately 30% of its budget 82 00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:37.980 on the provision of hospitals for the community. 83 00:03:38.500 --> 00:03:42.540 We know at the rate of acceleration in demand for health services, 84 00:03:42.700 --> 00:03:44.300 by around about 2035, 85 00:03:45.200 --> 00:03:49.100 the entire state budget will have to be devoted to those services 86 00:03:49.100 --> 00:03:51.780 at the current rate of acceleration in demand 87 00:03:51.780 --> 00:03:54.380 compared with the current rate of acceleration 88 00:03:54.380 --> 00:03:56.900 in the growth of our income base. 89 00:03:57.060 --> 00:03:58.460 That's completely unsustainable. 90 00:03:58.480 --> 00:03:59.860 So we have to make changes. 91 00:03:59.940 --> 00:04:01.660 As a government, we're trying to make changes 92 00:04:01.660 --> 00:04:03.480 in terms of how we structure our health system, 93 00:04:03.580 --> 00:04:05.380 but we also have to make changes 94 00:04:05.380 --> 00:04:08.180 in the way we as individuals live. 95 00:04:08.380 --> 00:04:10.560 And I guess that's the topic of today's talk. 96 00:04:10.740 --> 00:04:13.380 Can I now introduce to you Marion Nessel? 97 00:04:13.740 --> 00:04:17.480 Marion was educated in the University of California at Berkeley 98 00:04:17.480 --> 00:04:22.140 in bacteriology, molecular biology and public health nutrition. 99 00:04:22.560 --> 00:04:27.180 She is the Paulette Goddard Professor at the New York University. 100 00:04:27.440 --> 00:04:28.340 She's also... 101 00:04:28.480 --> 00:04:30.760 Honoree Professor at New York University 102 00:04:30.760 --> 00:04:33.560 Arts and Science Department of Sociology. 103 00:04:33.900 --> 00:04:38.120 Her research focuses on analysis of the scientific, social, 104 00:04:38.440 --> 00:04:40.140 cultural and economic factors 105 00:04:40.140 --> 00:04:43.600 that influence the development, implementation and acceptance 106 00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:46.600 of federal dietary guidance policies. 107 00:04:47.000 --> 00:04:49.120 She is the author of Food Politics, 108 00:04:49.340 --> 00:04:52.020 How the Food Industries Influences Nutrition and Health 109 00:04:52.020 --> 00:04:56.360 and Safe Food, Bacteria, Biotechnology and Bioterrorism 110 00:04:56.360 --> 00:04:58.460 and is co-editor of Taking Science, 111 00:04:58.480 --> 00:05:02.020 Sides, Clashing Views and Controversial Issues in Food and Nutrition. 112 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:06.460 Her latest book, What to Eat, was published in May 2006. 113 00:05:07.020 --> 00:05:09.980 She has won many awards and many honours, 114 00:05:09.980 --> 00:05:15.060 including the 2004 Time Obesity Warrior, which appealed to me. 115 00:05:15.260 --> 00:05:17.860 And she's also a member of a number of professional associations, 116 00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:23.340 including the Culinary Historians of New York City and Slow Food USA. 117 00:05:23.660 --> 00:05:26.300 I looked on Marion's website today 118 00:05:26.300 --> 00:05:28.460 and I found there's a section on her website, 119 00:05:28.460 --> 00:05:31.300 which is entitled Controversies, 120 00:05:31.300 --> 00:05:33.660 which I thought was a very appealing heading. 121 00:05:33.760 --> 00:05:36.400 So I checked that out and she's been involved in a few. 122 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:38.200 The one that most appealed to me 123 00:05:38.200 --> 00:05:41.040 was her fight with the sugar industry. 124 00:05:41.640 --> 00:05:45.420 And on her website she has a letter sent to her 125 00:05:45.420 --> 00:05:50.140 by the law firm Venable, Boettcher, Howard and Civiletti 126 00:05:50.140 --> 00:05:53.740 in relation to her claims about sugar. 127 00:05:53.840 --> 00:05:56.460 And I'll just read the first paragraph of that letter for you. 128 00:05:56.560 --> 00:05:57.540 Dear Dr. Nessel, 129 00:05:58.460 --> 00:06:01.320 I represent the Sugar Association Incorporated, SAI, 130 00:06:01.460 --> 00:06:04.020 an organisation that is committed to integrity 131 00:06:04.020 --> 00:06:06.280 and sound scientific principles 132 00:06:06.280 --> 00:06:08.640 in educating consumers and professionals 133 00:06:08.640 --> 00:06:11.720 about the benefits of pure natural sugar. 134 00:06:11.900 --> 00:06:13.820 We understand that you are a professor 135 00:06:13.820 --> 00:06:15.640 at New York University School of Education, 136 00:06:15.960 --> 00:06:18.000 Chair of its Department of Nutrition and Food Studies, 137 00:06:18.160 --> 00:06:21.560 and that you have recently published a book entitled Food Politics, 138 00:06:21.780 --> 00:06:23.180 which you are currently promoting. 139 00:06:23.500 --> 00:06:25.080 It has come to our attention 140 00:06:25.080 --> 00:06:27.340 that during the course of this promotion, 141 00:06:27.540 --> 00:06:28.440 you have made numerous contributions to the food industry, 142 00:06:28.460 --> 00:06:30.940 numerous false, misleading, disparaging 143 00:06:30.940 --> 00:06:33.400 and defamatory statements about sugar. 144 00:06:34.300 --> 00:06:36.880 While we are perplexed as to why or how 145 00:06:36.880 --> 00:06:38.740 a professional educator of your stature 146 00:06:38.740 --> 00:06:41.540 would disseminate such distorted and damaging statements, 147 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:46.060 we must demand that you stop making such statements about sugar. 148 00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:48.340 Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Marion Nessel. 149 00:06:53.980 --> 00:06:55.840 Thank you very much, Mr Minister. 150 00:06:56.100 --> 00:06:58.440 It's a pleasure to be introduced by a minister, 151 00:06:58.460 --> 00:07:01.200 a minister of health who's actually interested in public health. 152 00:07:01.420 --> 00:07:03.980 He's really rare, so treasure him. 153 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:07.340 Yes, I hurt sugar's feelings, 154 00:07:07.540 --> 00:07:09.800 and I do apologise for that. 155 00:07:10.700 --> 00:07:14.240 And you can read my response to it on my website 156 00:07:14.240 --> 00:07:15.840 if you're interested in doing that. 157 00:07:16.340 --> 00:07:17.680 I'm going to talk today. 158 00:07:17.900 --> 00:07:20.600 They're allowing me to give a PowerPoint presentation, 159 00:07:21.100 --> 00:07:23.780 and I will say in advance that I only have one slide 160 00:07:23.780 --> 00:07:25.040 that has words on it, 161 00:07:25.140 --> 00:07:27.920 so I'm not going to read you long, boring, 162 00:07:28.460 --> 00:07:29.480 bullet points, I hope. 163 00:07:29.640 --> 00:07:30.800 Anyway, here we go. 164 00:07:31.260 --> 00:07:34.500 I'm going to be talking about the issue of personal responsibility 165 00:07:34.500 --> 00:07:37.200 as opposed to social responsibility, 166 00:07:37.420 --> 00:07:40.000 because I think it's the central issue 167 00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:44.700 in trying to deal with problems of public health nutrition these days. 168 00:07:44.920 --> 00:07:47.080 And my starting point in this 169 00:07:47.080 --> 00:07:50.640 is enormous public confusion about diet and health, 170 00:07:50.760 --> 00:07:52.540 at least in the United States. 171 00:07:52.680 --> 00:07:54.720 Everywhere I go, people are saying, 172 00:07:54.860 --> 00:07:57.300 why do you nutritionists make things so confusing? 173 00:07:57.580 --> 00:07:58.440 We can't do it. 174 00:07:58.440 --> 00:08:00.420 We can't figure out what it is we're supposed to be doing. 175 00:08:00.880 --> 00:08:02.640 And I think this is too bad, 176 00:08:02.740 --> 00:08:04.600 because I don't think you need to be a genius 177 00:08:04.600 --> 00:08:06.660 to figure out what it is you're supposed to eat. 178 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:08.480 It couldn't be simpler, 179 00:08:08.600 --> 00:08:11.500 and in fact, I can summarise it in one slide, 180 00:08:12.040 --> 00:08:13.600 which is just a simple matter. 181 00:08:13.740 --> 00:08:16.160 If you're worried about obesity, eat less, move more, 182 00:08:16.320 --> 00:08:18.240 eat fruits, vegetables and whole grains, 183 00:08:18.540 --> 00:08:21.320 don't eat too much junk food, enjoy what you're eating, 184 00:08:21.480 --> 00:08:23.360 and please don't eat my book. 185 00:08:24.960 --> 00:08:27.680 And those kinds of advice are very much 186 00:08:27.680 --> 00:08:31.480 the kinds of things that the Australian Ministry of Health puts out 187 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:33.740 in its dietary guidance material. 188 00:08:34.020 --> 00:08:36.360 So there's nothing new or dramatic about this. 189 00:08:36.860 --> 00:08:40.600 But what is dramatic is the enormous effect 190 00:08:40.600 --> 00:08:43.640 that this kind of advice has on the food industry. 191 00:08:43.960 --> 00:08:46.320 And this was an article from Advertising Age, 192 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:48.280 which is a magazine in the States 193 00:08:48.280 --> 00:08:53.780 that is the trade magazine for the advertising industry. 194 00:08:54.120 --> 00:08:57.560 And in it, an executive of Coca-Cola talked about, 195 00:08:57.680 --> 00:09:01.840 the enormous fear that the obesity epidemic 196 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:04.500 has struck into the heart of the food industry, 197 00:09:04.820 --> 00:09:06.780 because if you're going to do something about obesity, 198 00:09:06.900 --> 00:09:09.040 you have to eat less, and let me tell you, 199 00:09:09.080 --> 00:09:10.920 eating less is not good for business. 200 00:09:11.500 --> 00:09:15.520 And if there is a fear, the fear has to do with 201 00:09:15.520 --> 00:09:18.660 the enormous increase in rates of obesity, 202 00:09:18.980 --> 00:09:22.620 not because obesity itself is necessarily a problem, 203 00:09:22.760 --> 00:09:26.340 but because of the diseases for which it is a risk factor, 204 00:09:26.340 --> 00:09:30.760 among them type 2 diabetes, which has emerged in many places 205 00:09:30.760 --> 00:09:34.260 as an absolute crisis for national healthcare systems, 206 00:09:34.740 --> 00:09:37.120 and is being seen in people, as you've already heard, 207 00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:38.760 of lower and lower age. 208 00:09:39.040 --> 00:09:40.740 Well, if you have a crisis, 209 00:09:41.080 --> 00:09:44.380 you have two choices about how to approach it. 210 00:09:44.760 --> 00:09:48.580 And the first approach is the personal responsibility approach, 211 00:09:48.680 --> 00:09:52.300 and this was discussed by The Economist, that radical magazine. 212 00:09:52.420 --> 00:09:56.320 If people want to eat their way to grossness and ill-earnings, 213 00:09:56.320 --> 00:09:57.440 they should really let them. 214 00:09:57.660 --> 00:09:59.680 In other words, if you're fat, it's your fault. 215 00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:01.480 Just do something about it. 216 00:10:01.520 --> 00:10:03.040 Buckle up and do something about it. 217 00:10:03.340 --> 00:10:06.180 And of course, the remedy, if you think that personal responsibility 218 00:10:06.180 --> 00:10:07.900 is the big issue in food choice, 219 00:10:08.040 --> 00:10:12.440 is you educate individuals to eat better, one by one, 220 00:10:13.700 --> 00:10:16.940 which there's increasing amounts of evidence doesn't work. 221 00:10:17.240 --> 00:10:20.100 The alternative approach is what the New York Times 222 00:10:20.100 --> 00:10:22.760 a few years ago called the gorge yourself environment, 223 00:10:23.380 --> 00:10:25.800 an environment in which there's more food, 224 00:10:25.800 --> 00:10:27.300 more choices, and more eating. 225 00:10:27.540 --> 00:10:31.700 And here, if you want to do something about the obesity epidemic 226 00:10:31.700 --> 00:10:35.260 and you're concerned about it, the remedy is to change society, 227 00:10:35.680 --> 00:10:38.320 which of course is much harder to think about 228 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:41.640 and much more difficult for people to contemplate. 229 00:10:41.760 --> 00:10:44.160 And if you're going to change society, 230 00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:46.840 the question is what needs to be changed. 231 00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:49.760 So in order to address that question, 232 00:10:49.980 --> 00:10:55.120 I like to look at the temporal changes in rates of obesity 233 00:10:55.120 --> 00:10:58.980 and this is a graph of rates of obesity in the United States 234 00:10:58.980 --> 00:11:04.740 and you can see from looking at it that the increase in rates of obesity 235 00:11:04.740 --> 00:11:09.640 began in the early 1980s and has increased to pace since then. 236 00:11:09.800 --> 00:11:14.060 So the question we have to ask is what happened in the early 1980s 237 00:11:14.060 --> 00:11:18.600 that encouraged people to eat more and move and or move less? 238 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:23.240 Well, the first thing that happened was a change in our farm policy 239 00:11:23.240 --> 00:11:24.340 in the United States. 240 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:29.660 Prior to the early 1980s, the government paid farmers 241 00:11:29.660 --> 00:11:33.980 for not producing food and there were restrictions on production. 242 00:11:34.280 --> 00:11:37.280 Those restrictions were removed in the 1970s 243 00:11:37.280 --> 00:11:41.600 and by the early 1980s, farmers were producing more food 244 00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:43.740 than anybody could possibly consume 245 00:11:43.740 --> 00:11:49.140 and the result was, as is shown here, mountains of subsidized corn, 246 00:11:49.440 --> 00:11:53.160 although that may change because we're now growing corn for ethanol. 247 00:11:53.540 --> 00:11:54.980 But in any case, 248 00:11:55.120 --> 00:11:58.020 the result of that was twofold. 249 00:11:58.100 --> 00:12:01.940 One was the amount of money spent on food continued to decline 250 00:12:01.940 --> 00:12:05.040 as a result of changes in supply and demand. 251 00:12:05.460 --> 00:12:06.580 There was more supply. 252 00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:09.440 The demand didn't change, so prices went down. 253 00:12:09.560 --> 00:12:12.860 But the more important factor was that the number of calories 254 00:12:12.860 --> 00:12:18.320 in the American food supply rose from 3,200 in the early 1980s 255 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:21.080 to its present 3,900 calories. 256 00:12:21.340 --> 00:12:24.000 And this rise exactly parallels 257 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:26.040 the rise in rates of obesity. 258 00:12:26.300 --> 00:12:29.720 Now, the calories in the food supply is not what people are eating. 259 00:12:29.920 --> 00:12:31.820 It's what's available for consumption, 260 00:12:32.140 --> 00:12:34.400 less exports plus imports. 261 00:12:34.820 --> 00:12:39.800 But the increase in the amount of food in the food supply 262 00:12:39.800 --> 00:12:42.740 was very difficult for the food industry to deal with 263 00:12:42.740 --> 00:12:45.500 because it meant that food companies had to sell that food 264 00:12:45.500 --> 00:12:48.380 and they had to sell that food in an environment 265 00:12:48.380 --> 00:12:51.080 in which there were twice as many calories available 266 00:12:51.080 --> 00:12:53.660 as the population needed on average. 267 00:12:54.040 --> 00:12:55.480 But that was not all. 268 00:12:55.800 --> 00:12:58.460 Also, in the early 1980s, 269 00:12:58.460 --> 00:13:00.640 we had in the United States what's called 270 00:13:00.640 --> 00:13:03.580 the advent of the shareholder value movement, 271 00:13:03.740 --> 00:13:06.460 which was a movement to put pressure on corporations 272 00:13:06.460 --> 00:13:08.800 to produce more immediate returns 273 00:13:08.800 --> 00:13:11.000 and larger returns on investment. 274 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:14.060 And so our investment system changed 275 00:13:14.060 --> 00:13:17.480 from promoting blue chip stocks 276 00:13:17.480 --> 00:13:21.060 to promoting stocks that gave immediate returns on investment. 277 00:13:21.080 --> 00:13:24.380 And here the result was that food companies 278 00:13:24.380 --> 00:13:27.200 not only had to sell food in an environment 279 00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:29.200 in which there was twice as much food available 280 00:13:29.200 --> 00:13:30.220 as anybody needed, 281 00:13:30.440 --> 00:13:32.320 but they had to grow every quarter 282 00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:36.920 and produce evidence of growth rates 283 00:13:36.920 --> 00:13:39.780 every 90 days to Wall Street. 284 00:13:40.020 --> 00:13:42.900 This makes things very difficult for food companies, 285 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:46.400 and it's not as if food companies are sitting around conference table 286 00:13:46.400 --> 00:13:48.760 saying, how can we make Americans fat? 287 00:13:49.020 --> 00:13:51.020 They're sitting around conference table 288 00:13:51.080 --> 00:13:54.480 saying, how can we grow our company every 90 days 289 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:57.580 in an environment in which there's far too much food available? 290 00:13:58.040 --> 00:14:01.580 So the way they did that beginning in the early 1980s 291 00:14:01.580 --> 00:14:03.040 was to change society. 292 00:14:03.520 --> 00:14:06.100 And what I'm going to show you in the next few slides 293 00:14:06.100 --> 00:14:08.860 are changes in society that have occurred 294 00:14:08.860 --> 00:14:10.820 just within the last 25 years 295 00:14:10.820 --> 00:14:13.600 that every single one of which 296 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:16.500 encourages people to eat more calories 297 00:14:16.500 --> 00:14:19.980 than they otherwise would if they were eating quietly at home, 298 00:14:19.980 --> 00:14:22.900 and there is a research basis that backs this up, 299 00:14:23.020 --> 00:14:24.620 which I review in my books. 300 00:14:24.880 --> 00:14:28.520 The first is that the amount of food consumed outside the home increased, 301 00:14:28.820 --> 00:14:34.560 and it now accounts for more than 50% of the food dollars that are spent. 302 00:14:34.840 --> 00:14:37.060 Food outside the home has more calories 303 00:14:37.060 --> 00:14:38.780 than food consumed at home. 304 00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:41.180 The second, and probably the most important, 305 00:14:41.380 --> 00:14:43.020 is larger portion sizes. 306 00:14:43.780 --> 00:14:47.180 In the United States, the cup on the far left 307 00:14:47.180 --> 00:14:49.240 is an official Department of Agriculture 308 00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:51.420 serving size for a soft drink. 309 00:14:51.500 --> 00:14:52.320 It's eight ounces. 310 00:14:52.600 --> 00:14:54.220 You can't even buy one anymore. 311 00:14:54.880 --> 00:14:57.960 The other cups all came from our local movie theater. 312 00:14:58.180 --> 00:15:02.720 The largest one, the double gulp, holds 64 ounces 313 00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:05.780 and provides 800 calories worth of soda 314 00:15:05.780 --> 00:15:09.980 if it doesn't have too much ice in it. 315 00:15:10.380 --> 00:15:14.180 And what's important about portion size, large portions, 316 00:15:14.400 --> 00:15:16.240 is they have more calories, 317 00:15:16.380 --> 00:15:18.960 something that is not intuitively obvious. 318 00:15:19.240 --> 00:15:20.480 I'm sorry to say. 319 00:15:20.640 --> 00:15:21.900 They have more calories. 320 00:15:22.040 --> 00:15:24.880 They encourage people to eat more calories from them, 321 00:15:25.040 --> 00:15:27.380 and they encourage people to underestimate 322 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:29.900 the number of calories that they're eating 323 00:15:29.900 --> 00:15:33.080 at a much higher level than they would if the portions were smaller. 324 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:37.940 So larger portions are a sufficient explanation for obesity. 325 00:15:38.440 --> 00:15:40.000 Another one is ubiquity. 326 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:42.280 Food has become available absolutely everywhere, 327 00:15:42.560 --> 00:15:44.440 and I like to ask the question, 328 00:15:44.580 --> 00:15:46.940 when did it become okay to eat in bookstores? 329 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:51.040 That's new in the last few years. 330 00:15:51.100 --> 00:15:53.520 It used to be that if you went into a bookstore, 331 00:15:53.660 --> 00:15:57.580 they searched your bag to make sure you weren't bringing food into it. 332 00:15:57.620 --> 00:15:58.780 That's no longer the case. 333 00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:00.860 Proximity is another one, 334 00:16:00.940 --> 00:16:02.960 and one of the reasons why we in the States 335 00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:05.960 are so concerned about vending machines in schools 336 00:16:05.960 --> 00:16:08.420 is that if the vending machines are there, 337 00:16:08.500 --> 00:16:10.120 the kids will buy things from them, 338 00:16:10.180 --> 00:16:13.020 and what they're buying from them isn't always the healthiest. 339 00:16:13.300 --> 00:16:15.280 And then the last is low prices. 340 00:16:15.940 --> 00:16:16.920 I like to say, 341 00:16:16.920 --> 00:16:17.900 to use this example, 342 00:16:18.060 --> 00:16:20.520 in the States you can go to McDonald's with $5, 343 00:16:20.520 --> 00:16:22.740 and you can buy five hamburgers, 344 00:16:22.740 --> 00:16:24.240 because there's a dollar hamburger, 345 00:16:24.460 --> 00:16:27.380 or you can buy one salad for that same $5. 346 00:16:27.580 --> 00:16:30.000 And I checked the prices at a McDonald's 347 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:31.520 up on Rundle Street the other day, 348 00:16:31.640 --> 00:16:34.920 and yours isn't quite as bad. 349 00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:37.680 The cheapest hamburger there was $1.75, 350 00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:40.220 and the salads were about $7. 351 00:16:40.280 --> 00:16:43.520 So it's, you know, three to one rather than five to one. 352 00:16:43.620 --> 00:16:44.700 But you get the point. 353 00:16:44.920 --> 00:16:46.420 And the reason why 354 00:16:46.920 --> 00:16:49.720 salad is so much more expensive compared to meat 355 00:16:49.720 --> 00:16:51.780 has to do a lot with farm policies 356 00:16:51.780 --> 00:16:54.560 and what gets subsidized and what doesn't, 357 00:16:54.560 --> 00:16:55.900 at least in my country. 358 00:16:56.240 --> 00:16:58.260 Now these are the kinds of things that I discussed 359 00:16:58.260 --> 00:16:59.400 in my first two books, 360 00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:01.240 Food Politics and Safe Food, 361 00:17:01.340 --> 00:17:02.900 which came out about five years ago. 362 00:17:03.100 --> 00:17:05.800 And as I was going around the country and the world 363 00:17:05.800 --> 00:17:08.020 giving talks like this in various places, 364 00:17:08.260 --> 00:17:10.420 people would come up afterwards and say, 365 00:17:10.620 --> 00:17:12.400 but you didn't tell us what to eat. 366 00:17:13.120 --> 00:17:15.040 And that kind of surprised me, 367 00:17:15.040 --> 00:17:16.320 because I thought I was writing books 368 00:17:16.320 --> 00:17:17.080 about politics. 369 00:17:17.180 --> 00:17:18.940 I didn't think I was writing diet books. 370 00:17:19.160 --> 00:17:22.520 But it soon became clear that people looked at 371 00:17:22.520 --> 00:17:25.520 the question of what to eat as something immensely complicated, 372 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:28.560 and that in particular they viewed supermarkets 373 00:17:28.560 --> 00:17:32.420 as ground zero for a lot of anxieties about food choice. 374 00:17:33.060 --> 00:17:34.820 They told me things like, 375 00:17:34.940 --> 00:17:36.400 if I go into a supermarket, 376 00:17:36.600 --> 00:17:38.460 I see danger absolutely everywhere. 377 00:17:38.940 --> 00:17:40.540 If I go into a supermarket, 378 00:17:40.700 --> 00:17:42.680 I'm paralyzed by the number of choices. 379 00:17:43.700 --> 00:17:45.780 What I really want is somebody 380 00:17:45.780 --> 00:17:49.100 just to tell me what's good for me and what's bad for me. 381 00:17:50.300 --> 00:17:52.440 So I started going around supermarkets. 382 00:17:52.460 --> 00:17:53.220 I live in Manhattan. 383 00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:55.080 We don't have supermarkets in Manhattan. 384 00:17:55.380 --> 00:17:57.240 So I had to go to upstate New York 385 00:17:57.240 --> 00:17:58.360 to start looking at them. 386 00:17:58.520 --> 00:18:00.840 And I spent a year going around supermarkets 387 00:18:00.840 --> 00:18:02.040 like an anthropologist, 388 00:18:02.900 --> 00:18:04.740 trying to figure out what was there, 389 00:18:04.800 --> 00:18:05.880 how it was being sold, 390 00:18:06.040 --> 00:18:06.760 what was going on. 391 00:18:06.840 --> 00:18:07.760 And the result was my book, 392 00:18:07.820 --> 00:18:08.420 What to Eat, 393 00:18:08.540 --> 00:18:11.160 which is really a book about food issues. 394 00:18:11.260 --> 00:18:12.720 It's not a book about supermarkets. 395 00:18:12.900 --> 00:18:15.760 It's a book about how to think about questions 396 00:18:15.760 --> 00:18:16.760 about food. 397 00:18:16.940 --> 00:18:18.680 And it came out last year, 398 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:20.160 and it's just come out in paperback. 399 00:18:20.360 --> 00:18:22.340 And they have copies of the thing. 400 00:18:22.580 --> 00:18:25.140 And what I quickly discovered 401 00:18:25.140 --> 00:18:29.200 was that supermarkets are arranged according to rules. 402 00:18:29.700 --> 00:18:33.140 And the rule number one is to expose customers 403 00:18:33.140 --> 00:18:35.880 to as many products as you possibly can 404 00:18:35.880 --> 00:18:38.500 because the more products customers see, 405 00:18:38.540 --> 00:18:39.240 the more they buy. 406 00:18:39.520 --> 00:18:42.540 And again, there's research to back this up. 407 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:44.420 So the design of the supermarket 408 00:18:44.420 --> 00:18:46.660 is to set up so that you will do 409 00:18:46.660 --> 00:18:49.460 as much walking through it as you possibly can 410 00:18:49.460 --> 00:18:51.840 so that you can see as many products as possible. 411 00:18:52.020 --> 00:18:53.960 This is very good for your exercise program, 412 00:18:54.900 --> 00:18:56.520 but not always so good. 413 00:18:56.600 --> 00:18:57.840 And in the States, at least, 414 00:18:57.880 --> 00:19:00.600 the dairy products are always in the far back corner 415 00:19:00.600 --> 00:19:02.440 because everybody who comes in 416 00:19:02.440 --> 00:19:03.740 buys some dairy products, 417 00:19:03.900 --> 00:19:06.460 and they need to do a lot of walking to get there. 418 00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:10.020 Rule number two is to put the highest profit items 419 00:19:10.020 --> 00:19:11.900 where they are seen most easily. 420 00:19:12.460 --> 00:19:14.340 And that means at eye level, 421 00:19:14.420 --> 00:19:16.000 at the ends of the aisles, 422 00:19:16.020 --> 00:19:18.320 at the cash registers and in special displays, 423 00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:20.920 and I'll show you some pictures of that in a bit. 424 00:19:21.260 --> 00:19:24.640 And companies in the States at least pay the stores 425 00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:27.000 in what are called slotting fees 426 00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:30.240 in order to get their products in exactly the places 427 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:32.040 where they're most easily seen 428 00:19:32.040 --> 00:19:34.460 and therefore most easily purchased. 429 00:19:34.840 --> 00:19:38.080 And so all of the profit centers of the store 430 00:19:38.080 --> 00:19:39.900 are in the center aisles, 431 00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:42.780 which is where the products are of added value, 432 00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:43.720 as you call them. 433 00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:45.180 We call them junk foods. 434 00:19:45.420 --> 00:19:46.960 Now, I'm a nutritionist, 435 00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:48.860 and we're not supposed to call them junk foods. 436 00:19:48.980 --> 00:19:51.920 We're supposed to call them foods of minimal nutritional value. 437 00:19:53.860 --> 00:19:55.320 But you know what I mean. 438 00:19:55.400 --> 00:19:57.480 These are foods that are high in calories, 439 00:19:57.540 --> 00:19:59.120 are extremely highly processed, 440 00:19:59.420 --> 00:20:01.540 are generally nutritionally depleted, 441 00:20:01.600 --> 00:20:03.720 and are highly profitable to their makers 442 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:05.420 and to the stores that sell them. 443 00:20:05.560 --> 00:20:07.840 And there's a supermarket in Southern California 444 00:20:07.840 --> 00:20:09.400 that actually calls them that. 445 00:20:09.400 --> 00:20:14.000 And what is underneath that sign 446 00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:16.300 is exactly what you would expect to see 447 00:20:16.300 --> 00:20:17.380 underneath that sign. 448 00:20:17.840 --> 00:20:19.700 Is somebody playing music for me? 449 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:23.000 I don't know. What is that? 450 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:24.540 Oh, a telephone. 451 00:20:24.800 --> 00:20:27.120 I forgot to tell you to turn your phones off. 452 00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:30.280 Rule number three is to add sugars to everything possible. 453 00:20:30.360 --> 00:20:32.060 That's how value gets added. 454 00:20:32.780 --> 00:20:34.420 And by sugars, of course, 455 00:20:34.420 --> 00:20:36.420 I'm not really talking about sugar itself. 456 00:20:36.600 --> 00:20:39.380 I'm talking about soft drinks and other things. 457 00:20:39.380 --> 00:20:42.180 Foods that have sugars in them. 458 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:43.840 And soft drinks are interesting. 459 00:20:44.020 --> 00:20:46.760 I like to assign students to supermarkets 460 00:20:46.760 --> 00:20:48.920 just to count the number of places 461 00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:50.960 in the stores where they're sold. 462 00:20:51.180 --> 00:20:55.820 This was a picture of a wall of soft drinks at the entrance. 463 00:20:56.080 --> 00:20:57.860 And then there's always soft drinks 464 00:20:57.860 --> 00:20:59.660 at the ends of aisles 465 00:20:59.660 --> 00:21:02.840 in prime location for being seen. 466 00:21:03.340 --> 00:21:06.400 Now, soft drinks are also priced in an interesting way, 467 00:21:06.460 --> 00:21:07.680 as are many things. 468 00:21:08.040 --> 00:21:09.360 And in the United States, 469 00:21:09.380 --> 00:21:11.140 in one of the stores I went to, 470 00:21:11.220 --> 00:21:14.220 a two-liter bottle of soda was priced at 471 00:21:14.220 --> 00:21:15.920 under three cents per ounce. 472 00:21:16.120 --> 00:21:18.680 But if you wanted the eight-ounce cans of soda, 473 00:21:18.800 --> 00:21:21.320 you had to pay more than ten cents an ounce for them. 474 00:21:21.520 --> 00:21:23.540 And when I asked supermarket executives 475 00:21:23.540 --> 00:21:26.040 why there was such a big price spread 476 00:21:26.040 --> 00:21:28.340 in something like a soda, they said, 477 00:21:28.360 --> 00:21:30.340 well, if people want smaller portions, 478 00:21:30.620 --> 00:21:32.560 they ought to be willing to pay for them. 479 00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:38.300 Rule number four is to use nutrition and health 480 00:21:38.300 --> 00:21:39.100 to sell foods. 481 00:21:39.260 --> 00:21:42.400 And I must say, you're way behind us on this one. 482 00:21:43.580 --> 00:21:47.280 In 1990, our Congress passed the Nutrition Labeling Act, 483 00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:49.820 in which it made a deal with the food industry 484 00:21:50.440 --> 00:21:53.620 to put our nutrition label on food packages, 485 00:21:53.700 --> 00:21:56.620 which says how much fat and trans fat and sugars 486 00:21:56.620 --> 00:21:58.100 there are in it and so forth. 487 00:21:58.280 --> 00:21:59.540 And the food industry said, 488 00:21:59.580 --> 00:22:00.880 if we're going to have to disclose 489 00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:02.640 what's bad about our products, 490 00:22:02.820 --> 00:22:05.440 you need to let us say what's good about our products 491 00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:07.260 and authorize health claims. 492 00:22:07.260 --> 00:22:10.060 And Congress ordered the Food and Drug Administration 493 00:22:10.060 --> 00:22:14.140 to begin allowing health claims on food products. 494 00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:16.980 And I keep telling you, don't do this. 495 00:22:17.840 --> 00:22:22.140 The result was that cereals of various kinds 496 00:22:22.140 --> 00:22:25.420 have claims on them that they help prevent heart disease, 497 00:22:25.560 --> 00:22:26.840 they help lower cholesterol, 498 00:22:27.140 --> 00:22:28.840 they help lower rates of cancer. 499 00:22:29.600 --> 00:22:32.620 There are no clinical trials to demonstrate this, 500 00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:35.160 but there is some evidence that some of the components 501 00:22:35.160 --> 00:22:37.040 of these foods might actually 502 00:22:37.260 --> 00:22:37.620 do that. 503 00:22:37.740 --> 00:22:41.480 I've not seen such things on products in Australia. 504 00:22:41.900 --> 00:22:44.520 This is the kind of thing that has happened in the States 505 00:22:44.520 --> 00:22:51.120 as a result of decreasing control by the FDA 506 00:22:51.120 --> 00:22:52.080 over health claims. 507 00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:54.740 Frosted shredded wheats are now a diet product. 508 00:22:55.880 --> 00:22:59.660 And in fact, most cereals now have statements on them 509 00:22:59.660 --> 00:23:02.420 that you can lose 10 pounds in two weeks 510 00:23:02.420 --> 00:23:03.820 or 6 pounds in two weeks 511 00:23:03.820 --> 00:23:06.500 if you substitute a serving of cereal 512 00:23:06.500 --> 00:23:07.240 for two more. 513 00:23:07.260 --> 00:23:07.500 And those are actually 514 00:23:07.500 --> 00:23:07.920 five meals a day. 515 00:23:08.100 --> 00:23:09.540 That actually might work. 516 00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:13.200 And then, this is another one. 517 00:23:13.300 --> 00:23:14.600 This is where you're headed. 518 00:23:15.100 --> 00:23:17.300 So, this is a Kellogg's cereal. 519 00:23:17.600 --> 00:23:20.000 It's got five sets of health claims on it. 520 00:23:20.100 --> 00:23:22.380 It's got little number one is little tokens 521 00:23:22.380 --> 00:23:24.460 that talk about all the good things that are in it. 522 00:23:24.520 --> 00:23:26.560 Your cereals are already doing that. 523 00:23:26.760 --> 00:23:28.080 It'll make you smart. 524 00:23:28.620 --> 00:23:30.300 It'll give you a healthy heart. 525 00:23:30.560 --> 00:23:33.380 It will lower both blood pressure and cholesterol. 526 00:23:33.700 --> 00:23:35.400 And it's got an endorsement 527 00:23:35.400 --> 00:23:36.840 from the American Heart Association, 528 00:23:37.180 --> 00:23:40.360 despite the fact that sugars appear 11 times 529 00:23:40.360 --> 00:23:41.580 in the ingredient list. 530 00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:45.180 The American Heart Association doesn't care about sugars. 531 00:23:45.280 --> 00:23:47.220 It only cares about fat and cholesterol. 532 00:23:48.040 --> 00:23:51.300 So, I have to say something about the Australian heart tick, 533 00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:56.840 which I was quite astonished to find on a McDonald's, 534 00:23:57.400 --> 00:23:59.460 with a big poster at McDonald's. 535 00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:02.820 The American Heart Association has apparently cut some deal 536 00:24:02.820 --> 00:24:03.840 with McDonald's, 537 00:24:03.840 --> 00:24:07.320 and so they have healthier meals and unhealthier meals. 538 00:24:07.580 --> 00:24:09.880 And you have to decide whether you think 539 00:24:09.880 --> 00:24:13.360 a somewhat healthier junk food is a really good thing to do. 540 00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:14.200 But anyway, apparently, 541 00:24:14.280 --> 00:24:16.440 the Australian National Heart Foundation 542 00:24:16.440 --> 00:24:18.720 has decided to do that. 543 00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:21.360 I would say that requires some thinking, 544 00:24:21.420 --> 00:24:22.700 and I just hope they're being paid 545 00:24:22.700 --> 00:24:24.960 really a lot of money for doing this. 546 00:24:26.560 --> 00:24:28.280 Companies in the United States, 547 00:24:28.400 --> 00:24:29.840 and I'm not going to go through a lot of these, 548 00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:31.920 but almost all of the major food companies 549 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:33.820 have set up criteria for food 550 00:24:33.840 --> 00:24:36.180 for what kinds of foods are healthier options. 551 00:24:36.540 --> 00:24:40.400 And they label their own foods as healthier options. 552 00:24:40.580 --> 00:24:42.040 And I particularly like this one, 553 00:24:42.180 --> 00:24:43.740 which is from Kraft, 554 00:24:43.960 --> 00:24:46.420 and is a Kraft sensible solution, 555 00:24:46.660 --> 00:24:48.840 which means it falls into the category 556 00:24:48.840 --> 00:24:50.220 of a healthier option. 557 00:24:50.560 --> 00:24:54.420 It's hard to believe what an unhealthier option might be, 558 00:24:54.560 --> 00:24:57.220 because this product, which is designed for children, 559 00:24:57.420 --> 00:25:00.620 has 25% of the daily allotment 560 00:25:00.620 --> 00:25:02.480 of saturated fat and sodium, 561 00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:04.760 and it has a full ounce of sugars. 562 00:25:05.880 --> 00:25:11.060 And Kraft spent $42.5 million in 2006 563 00:25:11.060 --> 00:25:14.260 to advertise just lunchable products. 564 00:25:15.880 --> 00:25:17.660 Now that brings me to the whole question 565 00:25:17.660 --> 00:25:18.780 of marketing to children, 566 00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:19.960 which is a really big issue. 567 00:25:20.020 --> 00:25:22.640 You can argue personal responsibility with adults. 568 00:25:22.860 --> 00:25:25.060 You're an adult. You get to eat anything you want. 569 00:25:25.120 --> 00:25:27.280 If you want to eat bad food, that's up to you. 570 00:25:27.500 --> 00:25:29.860 But when it comes to children, that's another matter. 571 00:25:30.020 --> 00:25:32.100 And the report shown on the left 572 00:25:32.100 --> 00:25:34.620 is a report done by an agency 573 00:25:34.620 --> 00:25:36.320 that does reports for the government 574 00:25:36.320 --> 00:25:37.760 on food marketing to children, 575 00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:40.300 which is an extraordinary indictment 576 00:25:40.300 --> 00:25:42.200 of food industry cynicism 577 00:25:42.200 --> 00:25:45.620 in trying to get kids to eat junk foods. 578 00:25:45.840 --> 00:25:48.980 Most of the ads for kids feature junk food 579 00:25:48.980 --> 00:25:52.340 as a report from the Kaiser Family Foundation last year 580 00:25:52.340 --> 00:25:54.080 came out and said, 581 00:25:54.180 --> 00:25:55.620 but anybody who watches television 582 00:25:55.620 --> 00:25:57.080 knows that this is the case. 583 00:25:57.440 --> 00:26:00.100 Now, there are three reasons for marketing to children 584 00:26:00.100 --> 00:26:02.140 if you're a food company. 585 00:26:02.360 --> 00:26:03.720 The first is brand loyalty. 586 00:26:04.020 --> 00:26:06.180 The idea is that if you get kids 587 00:26:06.180 --> 00:26:07.820 hooked on your brand early in life, 588 00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:09.140 they'll want it throughout life. 589 00:26:09.360 --> 00:26:10.800 And there's quite a bit of evidence 590 00:26:10.800 --> 00:26:12.660 that suggests that this is the case. 591 00:26:13.040 --> 00:26:14.720 The second is what's referred to 592 00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:16.660 in the marketing to kids industry 593 00:26:16.660 --> 00:26:17.860 as the pester factor. 594 00:26:18.260 --> 00:26:20.260 You want kids to pester their parents 595 00:26:20.260 --> 00:26:22.800 to buy the products, and all you have to do 596 00:26:22.800 --> 00:26:24.560 is take a two-year-old into a store 597 00:26:24.560 --> 00:26:27.620 and you see this in action, even here. 598 00:26:27.920 --> 00:26:29.620 But the third reason is the one 599 00:26:30.100 --> 00:26:31.240 that I think is the most insidious 600 00:26:31.240 --> 00:26:33.520 and it's the one that troubles me the most, 601 00:26:33.620 --> 00:26:35.520 and that is you want kids to think 602 00:26:35.520 --> 00:26:37.360 that they're supposed to be eating kid cuisine. 603 00:26:37.740 --> 00:26:39.380 They're supposed to be eating foods 604 00:26:39.380 --> 00:26:40.840 that are made just for them 605 00:26:40.840 --> 00:26:42.340 in funny colors and shapes, 606 00:26:43.100 --> 00:26:44.560 unidentified food objects, 607 00:26:45.280 --> 00:26:49.040 always with a cartoon character to advertise it. 608 00:26:49.140 --> 00:26:50.500 And if it doesn't have a cartoon 609 00:26:50.500 --> 00:26:52.020 and if it doesn't come in a box, 610 00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:54.340 it's not what... 611 00:26:54.340 --> 00:26:55.900 You want kids to think that they know more 612 00:26:55.900 --> 00:26:57.000 about what they're supposed to eat 613 00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:58.280 than their parents do, 614 00:26:58.420 --> 00:27:01.040 thereby undermining parents' ability 615 00:27:01.040 --> 00:27:02.340 to control the situation. 616 00:27:02.780 --> 00:27:04.980 And food companies are very effective at this. 617 00:27:05.420 --> 00:27:07.720 And they spend a lot of money doing it. 618 00:27:07.740 --> 00:27:10.740 Kellogg in 2006 spent $24 million 619 00:27:10.740 --> 00:27:13.520 just to advertise Cheez-Its. 620 00:27:13.740 --> 00:27:17.060 Now, Cheez-Its, this particular box of Cheez-Its 621 00:27:17.060 --> 00:27:19.980 has SpongeBob SquarePants on it. 622 00:27:20.380 --> 00:27:24.020 But SpongeBob is sold in 2006. 623 00:27:24.340 --> 00:27:26.860 This year, everything is Shrek. 624 00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:30.000 Now, I'm obsessed by Shrek these days 625 00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:32.320 because Shrek 3 has just come out. 626 00:27:32.420 --> 00:27:34.240 But Shrek has made a deal 627 00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:37.940 with our national Department of Health and Human Services 628 00:27:37.940 --> 00:27:40.440 to be the spokesman 629 00:27:40.440 --> 00:27:42.900 for promoting physical activity among children. 630 00:27:43.300 --> 00:27:45.760 What I'm showing you here is from the website 631 00:27:45.760 --> 00:27:48.520 of the Department of Health and Human Services 632 00:27:48.520 --> 00:27:50.620 showing Shrek promoting... 633 00:27:51.740 --> 00:27:54.740 telling kids to get up and play an hour a day. 634 00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:56.640 The New York Times editorial 635 00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:58.200 when this came out said 636 00:27:58.200 --> 00:28:00.720 that if you eat the junk food that Shrek promotes, 637 00:28:00.940 --> 00:28:02.680 you're going to end up looking just like him. 638 00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:05.660 Now, what kind of junk food does Shrek promote? 639 00:28:06.080 --> 00:28:08.020 Well, I've been here for several days. 640 00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:09.720 And a couple of days ago, 641 00:28:09.800 --> 00:28:12.700 I went into the Kohl's on King William Street, 642 00:28:12.780 --> 00:28:16.680 and I was floored by the number of displays 643 00:28:16.680 --> 00:28:18.960 of Shrek-related products. 644 00:28:19.240 --> 00:28:21.900 There is a whole wall in the middle of the store 645 00:28:21.900 --> 00:28:23.440 that has nothing but Shrek 646 00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:26.240 and this terrific blow-up doll. 647 00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:29.500 There are Shrek cartoon products 648 00:28:29.500 --> 00:28:31.080 at the end of an aisle. 649 00:28:31.220 --> 00:28:35.040 There's a self-contained candy display 650 00:28:35.040 --> 00:28:36.140 of Shrek products. 651 00:28:36.200 --> 00:28:39.320 Another self-contained candy display. 652 00:28:39.640 --> 00:28:41.900 Two other ends of aisles. 653 00:28:41.940 --> 00:28:43.400 Another end of aisles. 654 00:28:43.480 --> 00:28:45.040 Another end of aisles. 655 00:28:45.100 --> 00:28:46.700 Another end of aisles. 656 00:28:46.720 --> 00:28:48.920 Another end of aisles at low prices. 657 00:28:49.380 --> 00:28:51.140 I think it would be very difficult 658 00:28:51.140 --> 00:28:52.760 to bring a child into that store 659 00:28:52.760 --> 00:28:54.880 and come out without a Shrek product. 660 00:28:54.880 --> 00:28:57.000 Now, these products are absolutely amazing. 661 00:28:57.220 --> 00:28:57.860 I bought some. 662 00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:01.420 The cashier looked at me 663 00:29:01.420 --> 00:29:03.140 and really gave me a funny look. 664 00:29:04.540 --> 00:29:07.840 I would argue that these are not exactly health foods. 665 00:29:08.140 --> 00:29:10.820 Can I say that without fear of contradiction? 666 00:29:11.180 --> 00:29:12.560 They're not exactly health foods, 667 00:29:12.660 --> 00:29:15.580 but I adored the Kellogg Fruit Loops 668 00:29:15.580 --> 00:29:17.740 because on the side of the package, 669 00:29:18.380 --> 00:29:19.500 it's got a... 670 00:29:19.500 --> 00:29:22.280 The side panel talks about the goodness of vegetables. 671 00:29:22.500 --> 00:29:24.680 Well, the Fruit Loops are green, 672 00:29:24.680 --> 00:29:26.080 in this particular box. 673 00:29:26.280 --> 00:29:27.800 I guess that's a vegetable. 674 00:29:28.020 --> 00:29:29.040 I don't know. 675 00:29:31.880 --> 00:29:35.880 But I would think this isn't such a great idea. 676 00:29:36.500 --> 00:29:38.500 Oh, I also saw Shrek at McDonald's. 677 00:29:38.760 --> 00:29:42.060 And here's McDonald's showing not exactly... 678 00:29:42.060 --> 00:29:44.860 Notice that Ronald McDonald in this particular statue 679 00:29:44.860 --> 00:29:46.100 is not holding salads. 680 00:29:46.460 --> 00:29:49.260 And that Shrek is not advertising salads. 681 00:29:49.620 --> 00:29:51.360 So I think we have a real problem here 682 00:29:51.360 --> 00:29:53.760 with lots of very confusing messages for kids. 683 00:29:53.760 --> 00:29:56.180 Now, Kellogg's in the States, at least, 684 00:29:56.200 --> 00:29:59.280 under enormous pressure from food advocates, 685 00:29:59.500 --> 00:30:01.280 has said that it's going to phase out 686 00:30:01.280 --> 00:30:02.840 food advertising to children, 687 00:30:03.020 --> 00:30:06.440 including putting Shrek on products designed for kids. 688 00:30:06.620 --> 00:30:08.180 I'm not holding my breath. 689 00:30:08.500 --> 00:30:10.940 But we'll have to wait and see what happens to that, 690 00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:13.180 because they only just did this a couple of weeks ago. 691 00:30:13.400 --> 00:30:15.600 And in the meantime, behind the scenes, 692 00:30:15.800 --> 00:30:18.580 the large food companies are all joining together 693 00:30:20.040 --> 00:30:22.920 in an alliance to defend the industry's 694 00:30:22.920 --> 00:30:23.740 First Amendment rights. 695 00:30:23.740 --> 00:30:23.760 And the first thing they're doing is 696 00:30:23.760 --> 00:30:25.260 their current rights to advertise to children. 697 00:30:25.720 --> 00:30:28.980 And much of the advertising, although it's still on television, 698 00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:31.500 is shifting into the Internet, cell phones, 699 00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:34.740 and other ways that electronically challenged parents 700 00:30:34.740 --> 00:30:36.680 are really not aware of. 701 00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:39.300 So all in all, we have a situation 702 00:30:39.300 --> 00:30:42.660 in which it looks like there's, you know, 703 00:30:42.680 --> 00:30:45.640 a sort of a friendly arrangement between food companies, 704 00:30:45.940 --> 00:30:48.780 the government, and sometimes health associations, 705 00:30:49.480 --> 00:30:52.020 as a normal course of business, 706 00:30:53.740 --> 00:30:55.320 and the ability to eat more food, not less. 707 00:30:55.560 --> 00:30:57.780 And that's the situation that we find, 708 00:30:57.960 --> 00:30:59.220 at least in the States. 709 00:30:59.520 --> 00:31:02.000 Now, I would be very depressed about this, 710 00:31:02.120 --> 00:31:05.120 except that I think what we're seeing now 711 00:31:05.120 --> 00:31:07.020 is an enormous social movement 712 00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:10.240 that is arranged around food. 713 00:31:10.380 --> 00:31:12.340 And I've been thinking a lot about the kinds of talks 714 00:31:12.340 --> 00:31:14.400 I've been going to at this meeting, 715 00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:16.140 which are talking about climate change 716 00:31:16.140 --> 00:31:19.240 and problems with water and problems with all kinds of 717 00:31:19.240 --> 00:31:22.120 just enormous problems that individuals don't feel like. 718 00:31:23.740 --> 00:31:23.960 And I think that's something that's happening, 719 00:31:24.140 --> 00:31:26.860 but there's something you can do about food. 720 00:31:27.240 --> 00:31:30.500 And lots and lots of people are doing things about food. 721 00:31:30.700 --> 00:31:33.820 And I'm going to just show you a couple of examples. 722 00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:37.060 This is all grassroots, it's bottom-up, 723 00:31:37.160 --> 00:31:39.880 it's of the people, by the people, for the people, 724 00:31:40.020 --> 00:31:43.020 and it's individuals taking action on their own. 725 00:31:43.280 --> 00:31:47.620 So, one is what's called the good, clean, fair, slow movement, 726 00:31:47.900 --> 00:31:50.700 food that is good for health, clean for the environment, 727 00:31:53.740 --> 00:31:55.760 and the slow food movement is part of that, 728 00:31:55.960 --> 00:31:59.840 which is slow food is the antithesis of fast food, 729 00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:02.100 and there are books about the Slow Food Nation 730 00:32:02.100 --> 00:32:04.580 and all in apocalyptic terms, 731 00:32:04.800 --> 00:32:07.000 Slow Food Revolution and Take Action. 732 00:32:07.320 --> 00:32:09.180 Another one is the organic revolution. 733 00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:13.600 Organic foods in the States are the fastest growing segment 734 00:32:13.600 --> 00:32:17.180 of the food industry, which sales are just skyrocketing. 735 00:32:17.180 --> 00:32:20.160 This is part of the reason why so many large corporations 736 00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:21.780 are going into organics. 737 00:32:21.780 --> 00:32:25.180 But a lot of people feel that this is a very important thing 738 00:32:25.180 --> 00:32:30.180 to support and especially to try to keep our organic standards 739 00:32:30.180 --> 00:32:32.460 so that they really mean something. 740 00:32:32.980 --> 00:32:35.480 Another is what's happening with animal welfare. 741 00:32:36.120 --> 00:32:39.900 I never thought I would turn out to be an animal rights activist, 742 00:32:41.380 --> 00:32:44.480 but animal welfare has gone mainstream. 743 00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:48.440 And enormous numbers of people are extremely concerned 744 00:32:48.440 --> 00:32:51.760 about the way farm animals are raised industrially, 745 00:32:51.760 --> 00:32:54.920 not only because it's not very nice to the animals, 746 00:32:55.060 --> 00:32:56.880 but it's very hard on farm workers, 747 00:32:57.140 --> 00:32:59.880 and in fact it produces meat that's not as healthy 748 00:32:59.880 --> 00:33:02.640 for the population as it would be otherwise. 749 00:33:02.800 --> 00:33:07.460 And under pressure from an enormous number of individuals and groups, 750 00:33:07.700 --> 00:33:10.680 one company after another after another has said 751 00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:14.640 that it's going to reexamine its process of raising animals for its meat. 752 00:33:15.260 --> 00:33:18.640 And that's my... I'm almost done. 753 00:33:18.780 --> 00:33:20.000 So perfect timing. 754 00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:23.760 Another is the local agriculture movement. 755 00:33:23.980 --> 00:33:29.400 Time magazine had a special issue on forget organic, eat local. 756 00:33:29.540 --> 00:33:32.740 When locally grown food gets on the cover of Time magazine, 757 00:33:33.020 --> 00:33:34.000 it's mainstream. 758 00:33:34.360 --> 00:33:38.940 I just wish that they hadn't put organic and local in opposition to each other, 759 00:33:39.060 --> 00:33:40.240 because I think we need both. 760 00:33:40.960 --> 00:33:43.180 What's going on in schools in the States 761 00:33:43.180 --> 00:33:45.540 is one of the most amazing things I've ever seen, 762 00:33:45.700 --> 00:33:47.760 because parents are going into the schools, 763 00:33:47.840 --> 00:33:49.140 looking at what their kids are eating, 764 00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:50.160 and saying, 765 00:33:50.360 --> 00:33:53.160 we really think our kids should be eating better than this, 766 00:33:53.240 --> 00:33:54.860 and they're doing something about it. 767 00:33:55.020 --> 00:33:58.680 And if you go into a school in which these changes have been made, 768 00:33:58.820 --> 00:34:01.560 the kids are eating real food, they're eating grown-up food, 769 00:34:01.800 --> 00:34:04.160 they don't seem to be complaining about it, 770 00:34:04.220 --> 00:34:07.880 and they're getting interested in food production and in cooking. 771 00:34:08.100 --> 00:34:10.240 Teach kids how to cook and grow radishes, 772 00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:12.420 and you will radicalize them completely. 773 00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:15.300 We even have some government help. 774 00:34:15.380 --> 00:34:19.000 We have a few senators, like Senator Tom Harkin from California, 775 00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:22.900 who's very interested in doing something about marketing to kids, 776 00:34:23.060 --> 00:34:25.860 and has made, in various press conferences, 777 00:34:26.220 --> 00:34:31.660 a very clear connection between cigarette advertising that's aimed at kids 778 00:34:31.660 --> 00:34:35.020 and food advertising that's aimed at kids. 779 00:34:35.160 --> 00:34:38.700 And in New York City, where we also have a health commissioner 780 00:34:38.700 --> 00:34:41.780 who is remarkably interested in public health, 781 00:34:43.020 --> 00:34:46.200 trans fats, oils containing trans fats, 782 00:34:46.260 --> 00:34:47.580 have now been banned in restaurants, 783 00:34:47.580 --> 00:34:52.380 and the health commissioner is attempting to get fast food companies 784 00:34:52.380 --> 00:34:55.740 to label the number of calories that are in its products. 785 00:34:56.040 --> 00:34:57.780 That's in the courts right now. 786 00:34:58.100 --> 00:35:01.240 The restaurants aren't very interested in doing that. 787 00:35:01.520 --> 00:35:04.760 So, all in all, I think we're in a situation now 788 00:35:04.760 --> 00:35:08.920 where there's a great deal that we can do to try to change policy 789 00:35:08.920 --> 00:35:12.360 to make it easier for people to make better decisions 790 00:35:12.360 --> 00:35:14.820 about personal food choices. 791 00:35:15.080 --> 00:35:17.560 And I have here my list of things. 792 00:35:17.580 --> 00:35:21.620 These are my particular activities that I'm interested in, 793 00:35:21.660 --> 00:35:24.100 which have to do with marketing to kids and school meals, 794 00:35:24.300 --> 00:35:28.240 and giving a price break for smaller portions, not bigger ones, 795 00:35:28.340 --> 00:35:32.000 various kinds of pricing strategies and community food systems, 796 00:35:32.180 --> 00:35:35.240 and things that are much more complicated to deal with, 797 00:35:35.300 --> 00:35:38.860 like the way we support our government election campaigns, 798 00:35:39.160 --> 00:35:41.040 and doing something about Wall Street 799 00:35:41.040 --> 00:35:45.240 so corporations aren't under so much pressure to be so greedy. 800 00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:46.740 Well, you can dream, right? 801 00:35:47.600 --> 00:35:51.500 And we know that some of these are happening and are having a very big effect. 802 00:35:51.820 --> 00:35:54.460 When I was in Australia seven years ago, 803 00:35:54.540 --> 00:35:56.820 I picked up a box of Wheat Bix, 804 00:35:56.920 --> 00:35:59.580 and I just loved what was on the back of it. 805 00:35:59.640 --> 00:36:02.700 Nine out of ten nutritionists recommend that kids eat this, 806 00:36:02.700 --> 00:36:05.200 and it's got all these funny things on it. 807 00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:08.500 It's high in fiber, it's high in iron, it's proudly Australian. 808 00:36:08.920 --> 00:36:11.820 But my favorite is, what's a nutritionist? 809 00:36:12.500 --> 00:36:13.920 Well, that would be me. 810 00:36:14.260 --> 00:36:17.560 And I thank you very much for the opportunity to talk to you. 811 00:36:17.580 --> 00:36:18.040 Thanks. 812 00:36:31.080 --> 00:36:33.080 Well, thanks very much indeed, Marion. 813 00:36:33.160 --> 00:36:35.240 We have about eight minutes for questions. 814 00:36:35.300 --> 00:36:38.860 There is a microphone about halfway down if you'd like to ask a question. 815 00:36:39.080 --> 00:36:40.700 I can see a few people coming. 816 00:36:40.860 --> 00:36:43.000 Can I just say to those who do ask questions, 817 00:36:43.140 --> 00:36:44.940 we're serious about them being questions 818 00:36:44.940 --> 00:36:46.680 rather than statements or arguments, 819 00:36:47.580 --> 00:36:48.780 and I'm sure you can make your presentations on your favorite theme. 820 00:36:48.920 --> 00:36:50.520 So, first questioner. Thank you. 821 00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:53.760 Thanks, Marion, for a great presentation. 822 00:36:54.060 --> 00:36:55.660 I'm going to stand up. That's okay. 823 00:36:55.920 --> 00:36:58.300 Marion, we live in capitalistic societies 824 00:36:58.300 --> 00:37:03.240 where the raison d'etre for food and beverage companies 825 00:37:03.240 --> 00:37:05.360 is to make more and more profits, 826 00:37:05.580 --> 00:37:09.760 and yet we're also told that the imperative to address obesity 827 00:37:09.760 --> 00:37:11.700 is for us to consume less. 828 00:37:11.960 --> 00:37:14.220 What would be your advice to our governments 829 00:37:14.220 --> 00:37:17.500 to tackle this very difficult problem, 830 00:37:17.580 --> 00:37:22.400 of getting industries to curtail their activities? 831 00:37:22.560 --> 00:37:26.260 It's hard enough to get individuals to reduce their consumption, 832 00:37:26.480 --> 00:37:32.020 but it seems even very hard to get industry to reduce their activities. 833 00:37:32.380 --> 00:37:34.460 Well, I'm a very firm believer in regulation 834 00:37:35.580 --> 00:37:36.800 and in setting some limits, 835 00:37:36.980 --> 00:37:39.500 and if those limits apply to all companies, 836 00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:44.040 then the companies won't fight it as much as what they're trying to do. 837 00:37:44.180 --> 00:37:47.040 Kellogg, for example, in taking the initiative 838 00:37:47.580 --> 00:37:49.220 to say that it's not going to market to children, 839 00:37:49.400 --> 00:37:50.840 well, nobody, that's voluntary. 840 00:37:51.500 --> 00:37:54.840 Other companies are going to continue to market to children, 841 00:37:54.980 --> 00:37:58.080 and if you don't have government regulations setting some limits 842 00:37:58.080 --> 00:38:00.640 on what people, on what these companies can do, 843 00:38:00.780 --> 00:38:03.140 they will do whatever they can to increase sales. 844 00:38:03.660 --> 00:38:06.180 So I think you need across-the-board rules 845 00:38:06.180 --> 00:38:07.680 that they all have to follow, 846 00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:09.900 and that public health has to be the issue here. 847 00:38:10.120 --> 00:38:11.320 People need help making, 848 00:38:11.540 --> 00:38:14.020 right now the default is to eat unhealthfully. 849 00:38:14.160 --> 00:38:16.600 I think you need to change that, and that's government's role. 850 00:38:16.600 --> 00:38:19.980 Government's role is to balance the needs of the population 851 00:38:19.980 --> 00:38:21.380 against the needs of corporation, 852 00:38:21.780 --> 00:38:24.240 and I think we need more balance than we're getting. 853 00:38:29.820 --> 00:38:31.600 Marion, thank you for your presentation. 854 00:38:32.680 --> 00:38:37.120 One method that corporations keep increasing their profits 855 00:38:37.120 --> 00:38:39.220 is, apart from increasing prices, 856 00:38:39.340 --> 00:38:41.060 by reducing the size of their product. 857 00:38:41.380 --> 00:38:45.040 Not so long ago, muffins used to be a meal in themselves, 858 00:38:45.120 --> 00:38:46.580 and now they're like a bite size. 859 00:38:46.600 --> 00:38:48.820 At the other end of the food chain, 860 00:38:49.580 --> 00:38:51.100 I've been to America recently, 861 00:38:51.120 --> 00:38:53.000 and in fact your toilet rolls 862 00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:56.180 are half the size of those in Australia at the moment. 863 00:38:56.520 --> 00:38:59.340 So my question is, in five years' time, 864 00:38:59.600 --> 00:39:02.220 will we be paying toilet roll manufacturers 865 00:39:02.220 --> 00:39:06.260 to in fact use our fingers like our subcontinent Indian friends? 866 00:39:08.240 --> 00:39:10.280 I think I'm going to take the next question. 867 00:39:10.300 --> 00:39:11.700 I don't know how to respond to that. 868 00:39:12.200 --> 00:39:14.300 Thank you for that, I think. 869 00:39:14.300 --> 00:39:17.200 Thanks for that presentation, Marion. 870 00:39:17.580 --> 00:39:20.620 Do you think that in the process of trying to improve public nutrition, 871 00:39:20.900 --> 00:39:23.300 we run the risk of being perhaps too paternalistic 872 00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:25.540 or too patronising to people 873 00:39:25.540 --> 00:39:31.060 and perhaps not encouraging them to take responsibility 874 00:39:31.060 --> 00:39:32.020 in the way that they should? 875 00:39:32.120 --> 00:39:34.700 For example, the trans fat ban in New York 876 00:39:34.700 --> 00:39:35.960 was attacked on that basis. 877 00:39:36.720 --> 00:39:39.300 Yeah, just let me say about trans fat 878 00:39:39.300 --> 00:39:41.300 that I think trans fats are a calorie distractor. 879 00:39:41.960 --> 00:39:44.280 And the reason that people think that, 880 00:39:44.300 --> 00:39:45.680 that people are taking action on trans fats 881 00:39:45.680 --> 00:39:47.860 is because they're bad and it's doable 882 00:39:47.860 --> 00:39:50.180 and it doesn't make any difference to taste. 883 00:39:50.480 --> 00:39:52.380 It makes no difference to taste whatsoever. 884 00:39:53.060 --> 00:39:55.700 So that it's something that's doable 885 00:39:55.700 --> 00:39:58.500 and I think it's a completely distracting issue 886 00:39:59.300 --> 00:40:02.000 that takes people's minds off 887 00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:03.460 what are really the important issue. 888 00:40:03.660 --> 00:40:05.180 But you ask another one. 889 00:40:05.320 --> 00:40:09.260 I think you underestimate the intelligence of people 890 00:40:09.260 --> 00:40:12.640 and that people can make reasonable decisions 891 00:40:12.640 --> 00:40:14.280 about what they are going to eat, 892 00:40:14.300 --> 00:40:16.700 if they have the proper information. 893 00:40:17.180 --> 00:40:19.920 Right now they get their information from food companies 894 00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:20.880 for the most part. 895 00:40:21.260 --> 00:40:24.120 And they get their information from an environment 896 00:40:24.120 --> 00:40:27.320 that encourages more eating rather than less. 897 00:40:27.580 --> 00:40:29.320 So I think if you inform people 898 00:40:29.320 --> 00:40:31.500 then they can make better decisions. 899 00:40:31.680 --> 00:40:33.560 But right now that information is not available 900 00:40:33.560 --> 00:40:34.520 for the most part. 901 00:40:34.680 --> 00:40:35.940 Which is why I wrote my book. 902 00:40:37.600 --> 00:40:38.100 Yes. 903 00:40:38.120 --> 00:40:38.400 Hey, Mary. 904 00:40:38.980 --> 00:40:41.100 Are you familiar with John Robbins? 905 00:40:41.860 --> 00:40:42.700 Yes, of course. 906 00:40:42.720 --> 00:40:44.040 Yeah, I was speaking with John recently 907 00:40:44.300 --> 00:40:44.780 in San Fran. 908 00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:47.520 And he's got some great books that recommend 909 00:40:47.520 --> 00:40:50.680 we can change the world on a low-fat vegan diet. 910 00:40:50.900 --> 00:40:52.220 I'm a vegan marathon runner. 911 00:40:52.940 --> 00:40:55.040 What do you think of John's books 912 00:40:55.040 --> 00:40:56.000 and what he has to say? 913 00:40:56.260 --> 00:40:57.620 Yeah, I like him personally 914 00:40:57.620 --> 00:41:01.400 and I just love it that he comes from the Baskin Robbins family 915 00:41:02.980 --> 00:41:05.040 where ice cream did very bad things 916 00:41:05.040 --> 00:41:06.460 to people in his family apparently. 917 00:41:06.600 --> 00:41:07.720 I'm not a vegan myself. 918 00:41:08.140 --> 00:41:09.900 Although I respect people who are 919 00:41:09.900 --> 00:41:11.920 and I think it's a perfectly healthy way to do it. 920 00:41:11.980 --> 00:41:14.080 My own feeling is that there are reasons 921 00:41:14.300 --> 00:41:17.160 for eating meat and that you have a better ecological balance 922 00:41:17.160 --> 00:41:21.820 if you have some animals grazing on all that unused land. 923 00:41:22.080 --> 00:41:24.480 But the way that we raise meat is not very healthy. 924 00:41:24.840 --> 00:41:27.380 And small amounts of meat in the diet are just fine, 925 00:41:27.460 --> 00:41:28.520 in my opinion. 926 00:41:29.900 --> 00:41:31.240 But you don't have to eat it. 927 00:41:33.080 --> 00:41:36.760 Hi, I'm a doctor working on some of the hospitals here in Adelaide 928 00:41:36.760 --> 00:41:39.300 and I've got a question for the Minister of Health as well actually. 929 00:41:40.100 --> 00:41:42.960 I'm obviously particularly concerned about the rising rate of obesity 930 00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:45.920 in our country here, which is going up and up and up. 931 00:41:47.180 --> 00:41:50.880 And I've had particularly difficulties trying to get the hospitals 932 00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:53.520 to be more aware of the kind of food they're actually selling. 933 00:41:53.680 --> 00:41:56.200 I find it an amazing contradiction 934 00:41:56.200 --> 00:41:58.560 and I cannot understand for the life of it 935 00:41:58.560 --> 00:42:01.480 why we continue to sell junk food at hospitals 936 00:42:01.480 --> 00:42:03.340 but we ban cigarette smoking. 937 00:42:04.420 --> 00:42:05.260 Please explain. 938 00:42:13.040 --> 00:42:16.740 The previous questioner would probably say that was paternalistic. 939 00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:20.060 But in the States we have McDonald's at children's hospitals. 940 00:42:20.180 --> 00:42:20.940 In Australia too. 941 00:42:22.040 --> 00:42:23.540 You want to comment on that? 942 00:42:23.540 --> 00:42:24.620 Yeah, I'm happy to comment on that. 943 00:42:24.700 --> 00:42:28.660 I can say as the Health Minister I've asked my health department 944 00:42:28.660 --> 00:42:33.000 to develop some policies so we actually start providing appropriate food 945 00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:38.060 in our hospitals, both in the canteens and as provided to patients. 946 00:42:38.220 --> 00:42:39.280 A whole range of issues. 947 00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:42.820 But we have a McDonald's in one of our children's hospitals in Australia too. 948 00:42:42.820 --> 00:42:43.100 Oh, congratulations. 949 00:42:45.220 --> 00:42:46.920 I've got to say we haven't done that here yet. 950 00:42:46.920 --> 00:42:47.600 That's in Victoria. 951 00:42:47.620 --> 00:42:51.680 There's McDonald's in the basement of the children's hospital in Victoria. 952 00:42:51.740 --> 00:42:55.220 And there was a conversation at one stage about taking it out 953 00:42:55.220 --> 00:42:58.080 and parents protested because they said our kids are sick. 954 00:42:58.140 --> 00:43:01.120 The one thing that gives them comfort when they're really sick is that food. 955 00:43:01.340 --> 00:43:02.080 Isn't that sweet? 956 00:43:04.540 --> 00:43:05.620 We've got one more question. 957 00:43:07.320 --> 00:43:11.160 Yeah, thanks, Marion, for the very informative discussion. 958 00:43:11.940 --> 00:43:12.700 Neil Barnard. 959 00:43:12.820 --> 00:43:15.520 Neil Barnard's another person that I read as well as John Robbins. 960 00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:19.060 A lot of things I've heard has been in the light yesterday 961 00:43:19.060 --> 00:43:22.580 and what we're going to hear today is that the issues of water 962 00:43:22.580 --> 00:43:25.580 and the issues of land use and the problems with climate change. 963 00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:30.020 If we look at...we've got 60% to 70% of the world's grain harvest is fed to animals. 964 00:43:30.260 --> 00:43:34.760 We have here in Australia, we look at that the methane greenhouse gases 965 00:43:34.760 --> 00:43:38.880 from meat production is more than cars, air travel and households put together. 966 00:43:39.180 --> 00:43:41.800 So I think, like, looking at it, everything says, 967 00:43:41.800 --> 00:43:43.120 eat fresh fruits and grains. 968 00:43:43.220 --> 00:43:47.700 So from my opinion, looking at environmental factors and looking at... 969 00:43:47.700 --> 00:43:51.120 well, if we're looking at more of a hard focus factors for animal welfare, 970 00:43:51.280 --> 00:43:55.280 that everything's pointing towards vegetarian, better yet, a vegan diet. 971 00:43:55.900 --> 00:43:57.240 Yeah, I would... 972 00:43:57.740 --> 00:43:58.220 Yeah. 973 00:43:59.940 --> 00:44:03.700 I would say eating lower on the food chain is a really good idea 974 00:44:03.700 --> 00:44:08.580 and that certainly encompasses veganism, vegetarianism and small amounts of meat. 975 00:44:08.620 --> 00:44:09.140 Can we make this... 976 00:44:09.140 --> 00:44:10.100 Sorry, Marion. 977 00:44:10.100 --> 00:44:11.680 Can we make this the last question, please? 978 00:44:11.940 --> 00:44:12.600 Thank you. 979 00:44:13.960 --> 00:44:16.620 Marion, one thing you mentioned was eating local 980 00:44:17.960 --> 00:44:22.620 and I find that perhaps the idea of fork to fork 981 00:44:23.240 --> 00:44:26.400 from the point of view of knowing where your food comes from 982 00:44:27.060 --> 00:44:31.040 and consuming it locally is a very, very important idea. 983 00:44:31.220 --> 00:44:32.560 Then we know what we have. 984 00:44:33.360 --> 00:44:37.860 Community gardens, I think, is another aspect that we haven't addressed at all today 985 00:44:37.860 --> 00:44:38.940 that's starting to grow. 986 00:44:38.940 --> 00:44:39.520 Mm-hmm. 987 00:44:39.520 --> 00:44:43.620 Here in Adelaide and even in the park lands that I think has been mentioned. 988 00:44:43.740 --> 00:44:44.000 Excuse me. 989 00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:45.300 Do you have a question you'd like to ask? 990 00:44:46.100 --> 00:44:50.020 And I just wanted your comment on community gardens 991 00:44:50.020 --> 00:44:54.680 and the idea of people really taking responsibility for what they eat. 992 00:44:54.780 --> 00:44:54.900 Mm-hmm. 993 00:44:54.900 --> 00:44:58.620 Yeah, it's part of what I put under the heading of community food security, 994 00:44:59.440 --> 00:45:04.560 which is making sure that communities have control over their own food supply 995 00:45:04.560 --> 00:45:05.740 to the extent they can. 996 00:45:05.940 --> 00:45:08.920 And farmers markets, what we call community supply, 997 00:45:08.920 --> 00:45:15.240 where people pay the farmer in advance for producing a certain amount of food over the year. 998 00:45:18.020 --> 00:45:20.860 The community gardens, community efforts, 999 00:45:20.980 --> 00:45:28.100 all of these things are part of not only developing a food system that is close and secure, 1000 00:45:28.300 --> 00:45:33.940 but also it's one that's an enormous education for the people who are involved in it. 1001 00:45:34.120 --> 00:45:37.260 And, you know, when people say, how do you get kids to eat healthfully, 1002 00:45:37.460 --> 00:45:38.900 I say there are two things that are important. 1003 00:45:38.900 --> 00:45:41.320 There are three things that will really make a difference. 1004 00:45:41.460 --> 00:45:46.060 Eat healthfully at home, but also teach kids how to cook and teach kids how to grow food. 1005 00:45:46.340 --> 00:45:47.760 They love it, and it's fun. 1006 00:45:48.020 --> 00:45:48.920 Thanks very much. 1007 00:45:49.040 --> 00:45:49.740 Thank you very much.