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<v Mark Cully>Welcome, everyone, to this afternoon session of the Festival of Ideas,

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<v Mark Cully>which is entitled Salt of the Earth, Water, Salinity and the Limits of Growth.

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<v Mark Cully>My name is Mark Cully, and I'm going to be chairing the session today.

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<v Mark Cully>I'm the Deputy Director of the National Institute of Labor Studies

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<v Mark Cully>at Flinders University.

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<v Mark Cully>And what, you might well ask, does a labor economist know

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<v Mark Cully>about the topic under consideration today?

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<v Mark Cully>The answer, and I suspect it's the same for a good many of you,

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<v Mark Cully>is bugger all.

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<v Mark Cully>So I'm going to be very much a non-participating chair.

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<v Mark Cully>That's why we have today four very distinguished scientists

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<v Mark Cully>who are going to outline a vision of the future of Adelaide,

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<v Mark Cully>of the Murray-Darling Basin and its downstream of Australia.

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<v Mark Cully>In non-technical terms, I think they're going to tell us

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<v Mark Cully>that technically,

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<v Mark Cully>we're stuffed if we don't alter our ways.

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<v Mark Cully>Some of you might recall a book which had the title

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<v Mark Cully>The Limits to Growth, which is part of our subtitle today,

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<v Mark Cully>that appeared in 1972.

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<v Mark Cully>It was commissioned by an enigmatically titled body

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<v Mark Cully>called the Club of Rome.

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<v Mark Cully>And a group of scientists from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology

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<v Mark Cully>developed the first ever computer model

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<v Mark Cully>which forecast population growth, natural resource consumption,

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<v Mark Cully>pollution and so on.

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<v Mark Cully>Their conclusions were shattering.

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<v Mark Cully>Taking the then trajectories of growth,

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<v Mark Cully>the planet would reach full capacity within 100 years

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<v Mark Cully>and in effect burst,

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<v Mark Cully>leading to a sudden and uncontrollable decline

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<v Mark Cully>in both population and economic activity.

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<v Mark Cully>And this was 1972, remember.

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<v Mark Cully>This was before people really started talking seriously about global warming,

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<v Mark Cully>before we had become really fully aware of the dangers of salinity.

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<v Mark Cully>Now, a lot of people,

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<v Mark Cully>of course, rejected this scenario.

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<v Mark Cully>If I can adopt a biblical metaphor,

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<v Mark Cully>which is in keeping with the title of this session,

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<v Mark Cully>it seems to me they are rather like Lot's wife,

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<v Mark Cully>who was unwilling to forsake the pleasures of Sodom and Gomorrah

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<v Mark Cully>and was then, as a result, turned into a pillar of salt.

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<v Mark Cully>This isn't a doom-laden scenario.

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<v Mark Cully>We're not talking about a preordained future,

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<v Mark Cully>but about a choice.

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<v Mark Cully>So let us have the debate.

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<v Mark Cully>Let us hear the choices outlined starkly

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<v Mark Cully>and then let us consider,

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<v Mark Cully>let us consider our options.

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<v Mark Cully>When we think about the options,

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<v Mark Cully>we need to have regard to political structures

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<v Mark Cully>and the forums in which we can take action.

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<v Mark Cully>We've just been reminded in the session just before this

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<v Mark Cully>by John Williams

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<v Mark Cully>that one of the legacies of Federation

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<v Mark Cully>is the division of powers between the state and the Commonwealth,

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<v Mark Cully>the states and the Commonwealth.

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<v Mark Cully>That could give rise to a situation

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<v Mark Cully>where farmers in Queensland can,

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<v Mark Cully>with the apparent consent of their government,

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<v Mark Cully>continue to rid the land of trees

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<v Mark Cully>without regard to the environmental damage

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<v Mark Cully>that does to other states

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<v Mark Cully>and the consequences that has on things like

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<v Mark Cully>the near undrinkability of our water.

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<v Mark Cully>But before we talk about the options,

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<v Mark Cully>I think we have to do the hard bit,

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<v Mark Cully>do the science,

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<v Mark Cully>and hopefully in a way we can understand.

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<v Mark Cully>So let me now introduce our four speakers.

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<v Mark Cully>We have two locals,

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<v Mark Cully>one roving internationalist,

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<v Mark Cully>and a visitor from the United States.

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<v Mark Cully>Each of them will talk for about a minute,

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<v Mark Cully>about 10 minutes,

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<v Mark Cully>after which time they'll get a bell,

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<v Mark Cully>and that will leave around about half an hour

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<v Mark Cully>for you to ask questions of them.

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<v Mark Cully>So taking them in the order in which they will speak,

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<v Mark Cully>and closest to me is Dr Peter Jell

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<v Mark Cully>of the Department of Geographical Environmental Studies

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<v Mark Cully>at the University of Adelaide.

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<v Mark Cully>Peter is presently writing a book on biodiversity,

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<v Mark Cully>which is due to be published next year,

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<v Mark Cully>and he recently convened a conference

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<v Mark Cully>on the future of the Murray-Darling Basin,

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<v Mark Cully>Lessons from History.

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<v Mark Cully>He's going to outline the physical history of the world

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<v Mark Cully>over the past 50,000 years for us,

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<v Mark Cully>and then tell us what the next 100 years might look like.

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<v Mark Cully>We will then hear next to him Dr Warren Wood,

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<v Mark Cully>who is a research hydrologist from the United States,

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<v Mark Cully>a visiting lecturer in the Department of Geography

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<v Mark Cully>and Climate Change at Oxford University,

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<v Mark Cully>and the editor of the journal Groundwater.

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<v Mark Cully>He also holds some type of meritorious service award

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<v Mark Cully>from the United States,

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<v Mark Cully>which I guess is the US equivalent to a knighthood.

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<v Mark Cully>He's going to be followed by David Chittleborough,

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<v Mark Cully>who is the associate professor in the Department of Soil and Water

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<v Mark Cully>at the University of Adelaide.

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<v Mark Cully>David is an expert in catchment processes,

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<v Mark Cully>contaminant transport, and salinity.

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<v Mark Cully>He's going to talk about the different types of salinity,

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<v Mark Cully>and I've already learnt that there is, in fact, more than one type.

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<v Mark Cully>And last of all, we will hear John Leake,

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<v Mark Cully>who is the head of the Institute for International Development

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<v Mark Cully>and an adviser to governments here and abroad

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<v Mark Cully>about natural resource use.

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<v Mark Cully>He's recently reviewed Australia's

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<v Mark Cully>National Dry Land Salinity Program for the Federal Government.

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<v Mark Cully>So please make them welcome.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks, Mark.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, well, my temporal perspective is that,

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<v Speaker 2>as Mark suggested, I'll try and contain my geographic perspective to Australia.

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<v Speaker 2>And as a prelude to this presentation,

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<v Speaker 2>I'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the Willandra Lakes region,

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<v Speaker 2>and also given the themes, one of the themes of the festival,

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<v Speaker 2>I suppose the traditional owners of the rest of the country as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Well after an elderly man was buried in a ceremony

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<v Speaker 2>amongst the dunes to the south of Lake Mungo,

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<v Speaker 2>a population of indigenous Australians were reaping a harvest.

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<v Speaker 2>For them, they were in the lucky part of what we now call the lucky country.

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<v Speaker 2>A dramatic change in the climate had delivered them a feast of Roman proportions.

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<v Speaker 2>Their lake was drying out, it was desiccating in the late summer sun,

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<v Speaker 2>and the dorsal fins of golden perch and Murray Cod

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<v Speaker 2>could be seen above the surface of the increasingly salty waters,

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<v Speaker 2>much as those of European carp.

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<v Speaker 2>And the carp can be seen in billabongs today.

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<v Speaker 2>They were swimming sluggishly,

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<v Speaker 2>stunned by the osmotic pressures brought by the briny waters.

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<v Speaker 2>This was not a product of El Niño,

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<v Speaker 2>for the El Niño sudden oscillation was yet in place, in fact.

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<v Speaker 2>It was a consequence of global climate change

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<v Speaker 2>driven by the eccentricity of the Earth's orbit around the sun.

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<v Speaker 2>And it was ultimately to drive the Earth into arguably its coldest snap since the K-T boundary.

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<v Speaker 2>Mean temperatures would become more and more frequent,

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<v Speaker 2>as much as 10 degrees cooler.

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<v Speaker 2>But critically, the climate would become as much as 50% drier.

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<v Speaker 2>For these people, the hundred year drought, as it might have been known,

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<v Speaker 2>meant fish for dinner every night.

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<v Speaker 2>In the end, though, drought,

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<v Speaker 2>and the satanic mockery of snow, as it's been called,

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<v Speaker 2>salt claimed their fish and their fresh waters

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<v Speaker 2>and turned their feast into a 2,000 year famine.

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<v Speaker 2>30,000 years later, but still 4,000 BC,

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<v Speaker 2>the Earth's orbit was again at play.

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<v Speaker 2>The balance had shifted and the giant rain gauge lakes

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<v Speaker 2>of western Victoria, giant volcanic craters,

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<v Speaker 2>were spilling over under the new regime of warmth and wetness.

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<v Speaker 2>Forests expanded and drainage lines swamped up.

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<v Speaker 2>The fresh waters had returned

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<v Speaker 2>and with them came bountiful resources for the inhabitants.

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<v Speaker 2>It must have been an incredibly wet place indeed,

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<v Speaker 2>only 6,000 years ago.

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<v Speaker 2>Yet again, about 3,000 years later,

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<v Speaker 2>but still about 500 years BC,

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<v Speaker 2>desiccation returned.

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<v Speaker 2>The rain gauge lakes dropped

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<v Speaker 2>and some Murray River billabongs lost contact with the river.

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<v Speaker 2>On Kangaroo Island, the fresh waters of Lashmars Lagoon

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<v Speaker 2>abruptly turned to salt,

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<v Speaker 2>being starved of flushing rains.

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<v Speaker 2>Salinisation, driven by climate change,

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<v Speaker 2>appears to have been a key factor

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<v Speaker 2>in forcing the indigenous islanders

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<v Speaker 2>to abandon their part of the lucky country,

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<v Speaker 2>to return only sporadically before Europeans were to arrive.

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<v Speaker 2>About 2,000 years later,

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<v Speaker 2>and maybe as much as 100 years before

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<v Speaker 2>flinders sailed around the southern coast,

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<v Speaker 2>the climate-sensitive rain gauge lakes started to change again.

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<v Speaker 2>A sensitive climate,

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<v Speaker 2>a century or more before carbon emissions

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<v Speaker 2>enhanced the greenhouse blanket that we know of,

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<v Speaker 2>the water level at Lake Keelanbeet began to fall.

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<v Speaker 2>From a depth of 28 metres,

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<v Speaker 2>the level of the lake's waters fell and fell and fell,

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<v Speaker 2>and it became saltier and saltier.

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<v Speaker 2>Today, I'm reported it is 21 metres lower

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<v Speaker 2>and it's still falling.

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<v Speaker 2>So in less than three centuries,

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<v Speaker 2>this rain gauge in western Victoria

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<v Speaker 2>has lost 75% of its volume,

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<v Speaker 2>become twice the salinity of Bass Strait in that time.

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<v Speaker 2>Around the margins of this impressive volcanic lake

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<v Speaker 2>are carbonate slabs, which are precipitating out

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<v Speaker 2>at a rate which would impress even Mr Grollo.

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<v Speaker 2>CSIRO's Roger Jones states that

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<v Speaker 2>in a recent journal of hydrology,

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<v Speaker 2>the pre-European climate certainly would have been wetter,

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<v Speaker 2>probably cloudier, and perhaps cooler

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<v Speaker 2>than the present phase of desiccation.

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<v Speaker 2>So what are the messages here?

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<v Speaker 2>Clearly to me, one is that no matter

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<v Speaker 2>what engineering solutions we might devise,

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<v Speaker 2>humanity is a subject to the reign of climate change.

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<v Speaker 2>It has changed and it is changing.

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<v Speaker 2>These changes can be the order of the decadal variations

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<v Speaker 2>of the type that defeated the Great Wheat Drive

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<v Speaker 2>in South Australia in the late 1800s,

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<v Speaker 2>or of cycles over much longer return times.

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<v Speaker 2>The instrumental record shows that the climates

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<v Speaker 2>of the first half of the 20th century

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<v Speaker 2>was distinct from that of the second.

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<v Speaker 2>The instrumental record shows climate change.

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<v Speaker 2>Yet, to my mind, scientists are using that 20th century data

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<v Speaker 2>to model catchments that are about to come under 21st century climates.

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<v Speaker 2>Other models, climate models, suggest

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<v Speaker 2>the mean temperature of the latter might be

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<v Speaker 2>1 to 3.5 degrees higher than the mean of the former.

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<v Speaker 2>What does that mean?

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<v Speaker 2>We get that sort of range of variation on a day-to-day basis.

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<v Speaker 2>While collectively the ancestors of some of the audience

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<v Speaker 2>may have experienced falls of that sort of magnitude,

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<v Speaker 2>the upper temperature estimates exceed the highs experienced

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<v Speaker 2>by the planet since the last time sea levels

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<v Speaker 2>were anywhere near present 120,000 years ago.

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<v Speaker 2>In fact, Jim Bowler, the man who stumbled across that burial

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<v Speaker 2>on the shores of Lake Mungo in the early 1970s,

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<v Speaker 2>observed at a greenhouse meeting in May,

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<v Speaker 2>in Melbourne in 1993, after CSIRO's Peter Whetton

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<v Speaker 2>announced the possibility of a four degree warming,

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<v Speaker 2>that such an increase would represent possibly

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<v Speaker 2>the highest mean temperatures experienced

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<v Speaker 2>for the entire Pleistocene.

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<v Speaker 2>That means we might have to go back as far as Australopithecus

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<v Speaker 2>to find a hominid that has experienced such high temperatures.

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<v Speaker 2>It is not only the magnitude of the change that is of concern,

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<v Speaker 2>it is the rate of change which is forecast.

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<v Speaker 2>And that could see a change in the climate.

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<v Speaker 2>And that can exceed any documented in the area of mammals and flowering plants.

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<v Speaker 2>If forecasts come true, we are in for one serious scientific

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<v Speaker 2>and social science experiment.

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<v Speaker 2>My message here is that Southern Australia has experienced

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<v Speaker 2>substantial hydrological changes in response to climate oscillations

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<v Speaker 2>over the last glacial, interglacial cycles and longer.

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<v Speaker 2>Also, we are in the midst of a drying phase whose origins extend back to

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<v Speaker 2>before the Industrial Revolution.

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<v Speaker 2>Yet over the same time it took to deforest the Murray-Darling Basin

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<v Speaker 2>and set water tables rising by 25cm a year,

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<v Speaker 2>we are anticipating an additional anthropogenic warm phase

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<v Speaker 2>beyond the experience of the species.

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<v Speaker 2>What does this mean?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the forecasters are doing their best to come to terms with this

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<v Speaker 2>in terms of regional differences.

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<v Speaker 2>Roger Jones again, modelling the future Macquarie River flows,

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<v Speaker 2>under a range of climate scenarios, provides some disturbing predictions.

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<v Speaker 2>In summary, winter-spring rainfall could decrease by 20%

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<v Speaker 2>and a reduction in water allocation to irrigators would therefore be necessary.

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<v Speaker 2>Commitments to environmental flows will come under increasing pressure,

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<v Speaker 2>further threatening the Macquarie marshes.

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<v Speaker 2>Rates of sanitisation might be moderated in fact,

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<v Speaker 2>because reduced rainfall would buffer rising groundwaters.

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<v Speaker 2>However, reductions in streamflow would increase river salt concentrations.

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<v Speaker 2>Tree planting, interestingly, may exacerbate runoff and flow reductions,

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<v Speaker 2>so we need to be careful where we plant our trees

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<v Speaker 2>because they may actually lead towards increasing salt concentrations in rivers,

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<v Speaker 2>despite their yielding benefits for salinity, biodiversity and carbon sequestration.

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<v Speaker 2>Salinity and water resource issues

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<v Speaker 2>will be critical even if we limit growth

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<v Speaker 2>and turn the clock back towards pre-regulation.

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<v Speaker 2>Climate change dictates that we will need to do even more.

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<v Speaker 2>This may come from resource use efficiencies and innovations.

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<v Speaker 2>At a local scale, there are some encouraging results.

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<v Speaker 2>On the Tregao Plain, one of the first sores of the Murray Basin, salt sores,

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<v Speaker 2>groundwater pumping has lowered the water table from the capillary zone

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<v Speaker 2>to a depth of five metres.

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<v Speaker 2>The saline water is pondered, cleaned by algae,

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<v Speaker 2>and the purified product is available under the market name Pyramid Salt.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, we now have boutique salt on the market.

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<v Speaker 2>These algae-eating brine shrimp are sold to the aquarium trade,

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<v Speaker 2>and there are even thoughts of running a snapper aquaculture industry

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<v Speaker 2>400 kilometres from the sea, adjacent to a rejuvenated dairy industry.

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<v Speaker 2>In conclusion, the experiences of Easter Island

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<v Speaker 2>and the Indus, Tigris and Euphrates valleys

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<v Speaker 2>all tell us that humans can suffer at the hands of their own mismanagement.

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<v Speaker 2>Lake Mungo and Lashmar's Lagoon tell us that they may also suffer

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<v Speaker 2>at the whim of climate change, driven by forces related to the planet's orbit.

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<v Speaker 2>Something engineers and politicians, as far as I know, are unable to control.

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<v Speaker 2>So, getting back to the limits of growth.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd suggest that economists can only claim we're in growth

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<v Speaker 2>because they cannot quantify environmental decline.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd suggest that the $1.5 billion is a very small drop

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<v Speaker 2>in what's to become a very salty bucket.

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<v Speaker 2>Perhaps the last time Australia had so little control over its fate

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<v Speaker 2>was in 1939-40.

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<v Speaker 2>If we were able to budget to include

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<v Speaker 2>the environment, I think we'd see that we may require

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<v Speaker 2>measures akin to the war effort, sustained over decades,

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<v Speaker 2>to deal with the dual adversaries of environmental mismanagement

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<v Speaker 2>and global warming.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks very much.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a tough act to follow.

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<v Speaker 3>I wish to thank the organisers of the

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<v Speaker 3>National Satellite Festival of Ideas

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00:16:12.340 --> 00:16:15.020
<v Speaker 3>for inviting me to participate in this year's events.

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<v Speaker 3>As a hydrologist, I would like to confine my remarks

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<v Speaker 3>to the salinity part of the problem in this topic,

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<v Speaker 3>as my expertise does not include population growth

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<v Speaker 3>or the role of its control.

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00:16:32.280 --> 00:16:35.100
<v Speaker 3>Let me define the problem as I see it, though.

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<v Speaker 3>In spite of two nasty world wars,

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of regional conflicts, as they're euphemistically called,

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<v Speaker 3>and epidemics like the flu, influenza of 1918,

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00:16:46.660 --> 00:16:47.820
<v Speaker 3>and the current AIDS,

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00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:51.860
<v Speaker 3>we have quadrupled our population

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00:16:52.460 --> 00:16:56.120
<v Speaker 3>in the last 100 years to about 6 billion people.

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00:16:56.440 --> 00:16:59.360
<v Speaker 3>It is projected that in the next 100 years,

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<v Speaker 3>it'll be 12 billion people.

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00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:06.340
<v Speaker 3>Now, how do we feed this population?

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<v Speaker 3>We require increased production from agricultural land,

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00:17:12.520 --> 00:17:15.980
<v Speaker 3>and as most of the arable land on the Earth

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00:17:15.980 --> 00:17:18.700
<v Speaker 3>is already under cultivation,

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00:17:19.140 --> 00:17:23.420
<v Speaker 3>where are we going to get this additional production from?

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00:17:24.060 --> 00:17:26.140
<v Speaker 3>Yet we have this white cancer,

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<v Speaker 3>as I refer to it as salinity,

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00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:31.180
<v Speaker 3>because of its slow, insidious death of land.

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<v Speaker 3>It has claimed tens of millions of hectares worldwide,

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<v Speaker 3>over three billion years,

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00:17:36.320 --> 00:17:38.840
<v Speaker 3>three million hectares in Australia alone,

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00:17:39.280 --> 00:17:44.040
<v Speaker 3>and is set to poise to claim even more.

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00:17:44.900 --> 00:17:47.700
<v Speaker 3>So not only do we have an increasing population,

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<v Speaker 3>we have a diminished land resource

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<v Speaker 3>capable of feeding this population.

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<v Speaker 3>Let's review the simple concepts

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00:17:58.320 --> 00:18:01.580
<v Speaker 3>involved behind the cause of this white cancer.

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<v Speaker 3>Consider a base,

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<v Speaker 3>a typical basin.

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<v Speaker 3>All of the water comes from rainfall,

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<v Speaker 3>and most of the salts are derived from the rain.

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<v Speaker 3>There's a small component of salt

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<v Speaker 3>that's added to the weathering of rocks,

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<v Speaker 3>and some from rocks deposited in ancient seas,

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<v Speaker 3>but the vast majority is from rain.

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<v Speaker 3>This is not intuitively obvious,

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<v Speaker 3>as most people consider rain and snow to be pure.

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<v Speaker 3>In fact, the expression,

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<v Speaker 3>pure as the driven snow,

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<v Speaker 3>is a phrase that we all use.

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00:18:35.620 --> 00:18:37.760
<v Speaker 3>But if we look at a simple calculation,

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<v Speaker 3>we can see if we only have two milligrams

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00:18:41.620 --> 00:18:44.900
<v Speaker 3>per liter of salt in rainwater,

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00:18:45.620 --> 00:18:49.740
<v Speaker 3>and if we receive 500 millimeters a year of rainfall,

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<v Speaker 3>that each year we're going to have

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<v Speaker 3>about 500 liters of water per square meter.

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<v Speaker 3>Now this gives us about one gram of salt per year.

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00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:03.940
<v Speaker 3>If we have a million years,

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<v Speaker 3>this gives us a thousand kilograms of salt

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00:19:07.120 --> 00:19:08.440
<v Speaker 3>for every square meter.

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<v Speaker 3>This has just come from our pure rain.

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<v Speaker 3>Clearly we do not have all of this kind of salt generated,

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<v Speaker 3>and there is a natural flushing process.

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<v Speaker 3>Water and salt, however,

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00:19:23.400 --> 00:19:26.140
<v Speaker 3>are removed from the land by different processes.

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<v Speaker 3>Some water leaves by river flow,

356
00:19:29.080 --> 00:19:31.400
<v Speaker 3>but the majority is transpired by plants.

357
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<v Speaker 3>That is, as the plants use the liquid water,

358
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<v Speaker 3>they discharge it as a vapor.

359
00:19:36.860 --> 00:19:40.140
<v Speaker 3>Salt is, however, only removed by the river flow.

360
00:19:40.620 --> 00:19:42.260
<v Speaker 3>Thus you have different processes

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00:19:42.260 --> 00:19:44.840
<v Speaker 3>for the removal of salt and water from a basin,

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00:19:45.020 --> 00:19:46.680
<v Speaker 3>and this is important in understanding

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<v Speaker 3>the salinity interactions and ramifications.

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00:19:52.340 --> 00:19:56.000
<v Speaker 3>In natural systems that are unchanging with time,

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<v Speaker 3>an equilibrium is reached

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<v Speaker 3>where the salt entering a basin

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00:19:59.920 --> 00:20:02.300
<v Speaker 3>is equal to the salt leaving the basin

368
00:20:02.300 --> 00:20:03.280
<v Speaker 3>by the stream flow.

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00:20:03.280 --> 00:20:06.400
<v Speaker 3>The equilibrium concentration of salt

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<v Speaker 3>remaining in the slowly moving groundwater

371
00:20:08.500 --> 00:20:10.700
<v Speaker 3>is controlled by two factors,

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<v Speaker 3>the slope of the water table

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00:20:12.760 --> 00:20:15.800
<v Speaker 3>and the permeability of the rocks,

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00:20:15.860 --> 00:20:18.560
<v Speaker 3>or the ease in which water can flow through the rocks.

375
00:20:19.480 --> 00:20:24.000
<v Speaker 3>Some basins have naturally higher concentrations of salt

376
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<v Speaker 3>because of this variation in processes.

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00:20:28.340 --> 00:20:29.960
<v Speaker 3>In much of Australia,

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<v Speaker 3>the low topography means

379
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<v Speaker 3>that the slope of the water

380
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<v Speaker 3>table is low

381
00:20:34.980 --> 00:20:37.900
<v Speaker 3>and the natural flushing is very slow.

382
00:20:38.620 --> 00:20:41.920
<v Speaker 3>Thus while the equilibrium concentrations of salts

383
00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:44.020
<v Speaker 3>tend to be very high in Australia,

384
00:20:44.340 --> 00:20:47.180
<v Speaker 3>the low slope also means

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<v Speaker 3>that the top of the groundwater table

386
00:20:49.320 --> 00:20:51.800
<v Speaker 3>is very close to the land surface.

387
00:20:52.540 --> 00:20:54.700
<v Speaker 3>In natural undisturbed systems,

388
00:20:54.800 --> 00:20:58.600
<v Speaker 3>vegetation develops that uses this shallow water

389
00:20:58.600 --> 00:21:01.060
<v Speaker 3>and which keeps the top of the water table deeper

390
00:21:01.060 --> 00:21:03.100
<v Speaker 3>than otherwise would be

391
00:21:03.280 --> 00:21:03.980
<v Speaker 3>the case.

392
00:21:04.100 --> 00:21:05.360
<v Speaker 3>Now along come man

393
00:21:05.360 --> 00:21:07.300
<v Speaker 3>cutting the natural vegetation,

394
00:21:07.660 --> 00:21:10.360
<v Speaker 3>replacing with crops that use less water.

395
00:21:10.520 --> 00:21:13.880
<v Speaker 3>The result is an increase in recharge of the groundwater

396
00:21:14.600 --> 00:21:17.340
<v Speaker 3>and is accompanied by a consequent rise

397
00:21:17.340 --> 00:21:18.580
<v Speaker 3>in the groundwater table.

398
00:21:19.080 --> 00:21:22.040
<v Speaker 3>If the water table rises to within a meter

399
00:21:22.040 --> 00:21:24.940
<v Speaker 3>or two meters of the surface in the capillary zone,

400
00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:30.100
<v Speaker 3>the water will evaporate directly from the water table

401
00:21:30.100 --> 00:21:31.500
<v Speaker 3>and concentrate the salts.

402
00:21:32.940 --> 00:21:35.980
<v Speaker 3>So this is the so-called dry land salinity.

403
00:21:36.820 --> 00:21:38.900
<v Speaker 3>Irrigation can exacerbate the salinity

404
00:21:38.900 --> 00:21:42.480
<v Speaker 3>as increase in recharge again increases the water table

405
00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:45.920
<v Speaker 3>even faster than the changes caused by dry land farming.

406
00:21:46.760 --> 00:21:49.400
<v Speaker 3>Not only does the water table rise faster,

407
00:21:49.540 --> 00:21:52.840
<v Speaker 3>but the irrigation water generally contains salts

408
00:21:52.840 --> 00:21:54.760
<v Speaker 3>that are hundreds of times more concentrated

409
00:21:54.760 --> 00:21:56.620
<v Speaker 3>than the natural rainwater.

410
00:21:56.840 --> 00:22:00.960
<v Speaker 3>Thus irrigation adds both water and salt

411
00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:01.540
<v Speaker 3>to the system.

412
00:22:02.320 --> 00:22:03.980
<v Speaker 3>Now salinity is a worldwide problem.

413
00:22:04.260 --> 00:22:07.600
<v Speaker 3>It might surprise you to know that the prairie providences

414
00:22:07.600 --> 00:22:12.100
<v Speaker 3>of Alberta, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Canada

415
00:22:12.100 --> 00:22:15.500
<v Speaker 3>have lost almost the same number of hectares

416
00:22:15.500 --> 00:22:17.800
<v Speaker 3>of farmland as Australia.

417
00:22:18.180 --> 00:22:21.420
<v Speaker 3>Now we normally think of Canada as a cold, snow-covered area,

418
00:22:21.600 --> 00:22:24.220
<v Speaker 3>not a sunny, dry land like Australia.

419
00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:27.580
<v Speaker 3>The point I want to make is that the physics of the problem

420
00:22:27.580 --> 00:22:30.120
<v Speaker 3>are universal and generally well-known.

421
00:22:30.900 --> 00:22:33.460
<v Speaker 3>Now management strategies for the reduction

422
00:22:33.460 --> 00:22:37.300
<v Speaker 3>of man-induced salinity all follow a process

423
00:22:37.300 --> 00:22:40.460
<v Speaker 3>of lowering the water table by either reducing recharge

424
00:22:40.460 --> 00:22:42.940
<v Speaker 3>or physically removing the water.

425
00:22:45.280 --> 00:22:49.620
<v Speaker 3>Some techniques are what I refer to as active

426
00:22:49.620 --> 00:22:52.620
<v Speaker 3>or engineering solutions and other are passive solutions.

427
00:22:53.120 --> 00:22:56.540
<v Speaker 3>In active or engineering solutions, drainage ditches

428
00:22:56.540 --> 00:22:58.880
<v Speaker 3>or field tiles or wells are installed

429
00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:00.100
<v Speaker 3>and the water table is lowered.

430
00:23:00.100 --> 00:23:03.900
<v Speaker 3>As Peter Gelis said, they have a way of lowering it

431
00:23:03.900 --> 00:23:05.960
<v Speaker 3>something like five meters in some areas.

432
00:23:06.580 --> 00:23:10.420
<v Speaker 3>In other cases, brines collected are injected

433
00:23:10.420 --> 00:23:15.660
<v Speaker 3>into the lower saline aquifers or their water is collected

434
00:23:15.660 --> 00:23:19.620
<v Speaker 3>as pumped to closed basins or directly to the sea

435
00:23:19.620 --> 00:23:23.800
<v Speaker 3>if the proximity is suitable.

436
00:23:24.080 --> 00:23:25.880
<v Speaker 3>But there are environmental consequences

437
00:23:25.880 --> 00:23:27.280
<v Speaker 3>of each of these choices.

438
00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:30.080
<v Speaker 3>And all of these active engineering solutions,

439
00:23:30.080 --> 00:23:33.820
<v Speaker 3>are generally energy intensive and thus very expensive.

440
00:23:35.080 --> 00:23:37.940
<v Speaker 3>One management approach reduces the amount of irrigation water

441
00:23:37.940 --> 00:23:40.320
<v Speaker 3>applied to a field thus preventing salinization

442
00:23:40.320 --> 00:23:41.900
<v Speaker 3>from occurring in the first place,

443
00:23:42.060 --> 00:23:43.440
<v Speaker 3>which is highly desirable.

444
00:23:43.940 --> 00:23:47.380
<v Speaker 3>Not only does this procedure prevent salinization,

445
00:23:47.700 --> 00:23:50.900
<v Speaker 3>it also saves considerable water and thus energy

446
00:23:50.900 --> 00:23:55.260
<v Speaker 3>as the newer irrigation systems are over 90% more effective

447
00:23:55.260 --> 00:23:57.380
<v Speaker 3>than the old flooding systems.

448
00:23:57.380 --> 00:24:01.200
<v Speaker 3>The downside of this is that the systems are capital intensive,

449
00:24:01.460 --> 00:24:03.540
<v Speaker 3>require significant capital investment.

450
00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:07.080
<v Speaker 3>There has been some progress in passive approaches

451
00:24:07.080 --> 00:24:11.020
<v Speaker 3>such as planting strips of trees or crops like alfalfa

452
00:24:11.020 --> 00:24:14.500
<v Speaker 3>that use large amounts of water so that the water table is lowered.

453
00:24:15.020 --> 00:24:17.780
<v Speaker 3>This approach is generally more successfully used

454
00:24:17.780 --> 00:24:20.080
<v Speaker 3>prior to the onset of salinization,

455
00:24:20.320 --> 00:24:22.700
<v Speaker 3>but has been used to reclaim some land.

456
00:24:23.180 --> 00:24:26.540
<v Speaker 3>There is some progress in genetically modifying plants

457
00:24:26.540 --> 00:24:28.100
<v Speaker 3>so that they are more salt tolerant.

458
00:24:28.320 --> 00:24:32.620
<v Speaker 3>There has also been some progress in developing low water demand crops

459
00:24:32.620 --> 00:24:35.680
<v Speaker 3>so that the amount of irrigation required is reduced.

460
00:24:36.600 --> 00:24:40.620
<v Speaker 3>Now the technical solutions for the prevention and remediation

461
00:24:40.620 --> 00:24:44.180
<v Speaker 3>of most man-induced salinities are reasonably well known.

462
00:24:44.620 --> 00:24:47.060
<v Speaker 3>However, in a world market economy

463
00:24:47.060 --> 00:24:50.340
<v Speaker 3>where products must compete by price and quality,

464
00:24:50.560 --> 00:24:54.820
<v Speaker 3>all remediation solutions must be placed in an economic context.

465
00:24:54.820 --> 00:24:59.420
<v Speaker 3>That is, the value of the product must be greater than the cost of production.

466
00:24:59.940 --> 00:25:03.100
<v Speaker 3>Now this value must include the maintenance of ecosystem,

467
00:25:03.560 --> 00:25:05.620
<v Speaker 3>habitat, species diversity,

468
00:25:06.120 --> 00:25:09.760
<v Speaker 3>both of which are difficult to quantify in dollar terms.

469
00:25:10.080 --> 00:25:13.840
<v Speaker 3>The value must also include the cost of no action,

470
00:25:13.960 --> 00:25:17.660
<v Speaker 3>such as moving people off the land, retraining them,

471
00:25:18.500 --> 00:25:20.140
<v Speaker 3>loss of tax revenue,

472
00:25:20.420 --> 00:25:24.800
<v Speaker 3>and to say nothing of the social costs

473
00:25:24.800 --> 00:25:28.700
<v Speaker 3>and cultural disruption caused by mass migration

474
00:25:28.700 --> 00:25:30.860
<v Speaker 3>and abandonment of small farming communities.

475
00:25:31.480 --> 00:25:36.340
<v Speaker 3>Again, the solution to salinity is a policy problem,

476
00:25:36.600 --> 00:25:37.940
<v Speaker 3>not a technical one.

477
00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:41.880
<v Speaker 3>More technical research is needed on individual remediation strategies,

478
00:25:42.340 --> 00:25:45.440
<v Speaker 3>but the general understanding of the cause are well known.

479
00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:48.620
<v Speaker 3>And while we haven't incorporated climate change,

480
00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:49.840
<v Speaker 3>as Peter just suggested,

481
00:25:50.020 --> 00:25:52.260
<v Speaker 3>that's another variable in the whole process.

482
00:25:53.020 --> 00:25:54.600
<v Speaker 3>Salt was at one time

483
00:25:54.800 --> 00:25:58.500
<v Speaker 3>so valuable that the Romans used to pay their workers in salt.

484
00:25:58.660 --> 00:26:00.360
<v Speaker 3>We still use the expression,

485
00:26:00.580 --> 00:26:02.540
<v Speaker 3>a man is worth his salt,

486
00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:06.400
<v Speaker 3>to indicate that he's done a fair day's work.

487
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:09.700
<v Speaker 3>But our admiration for salt has declined

488
00:26:09.700 --> 00:26:14.520
<v Speaker 3>as the great white cancer has consumed our agricultural land.

489
00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:15.340
<v Speaker 3>Thank you.

490
00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:27.220
<v Speaker 4>Ladies and gentlemen,

491
00:26:27.260 --> 00:26:30.460
<v Speaker 4>my previous speakers have given a perspective

492
00:26:30.460 --> 00:26:33.680
<v Speaker 4>from the geomorphological, climatological,

493
00:26:33.800 --> 00:26:36.360
<v Speaker 4>and obviously from the hydrological perspective.

494
00:26:36.520 --> 00:26:38.800
<v Speaker 4>And what I'm going to do is to give you a perspective

495
00:26:39.320 --> 00:26:40.980
<v Speaker 4>from the soil science angle.

496
00:26:41.960 --> 00:26:45.720
<v Speaker 5>Now, there's a recent paper by an economist

497
00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:48.580
<v Speaker 4>interested in salinity who said that it's inevitable,

498
00:26:49.160 --> 00:26:52.120
<v Speaker 4>this is salinity, the cancer of the earth, as Warren said,

499
00:26:52.260 --> 00:26:54.780
<v Speaker 4>it's inevitable, it's inexplicable,

500
00:26:54.780 --> 00:26:56.400
<v Speaker 4>and it's intractable.

501
00:26:56.880 --> 00:27:01.680
<v Speaker 4>In other words, what he's saying is that it's fate,

502
00:27:02.280 --> 00:27:06.040
<v Speaker 4>it's unjust, and we are not going to stop it.

503
00:27:07.320 --> 00:27:10.780
<v Speaker 4>And he then goes on to point out

504
00:27:10.780 --> 00:27:13.120
<v Speaker 4>some of the immensity of this problem.

505
00:27:14.180 --> 00:27:17.820
<v Speaker 4>Now, this question of dry land salinity

506
00:27:17.820 --> 00:27:19.240
<v Speaker 4>that you hear so much about

507
00:27:19.240 --> 00:27:22.480
<v Speaker 4>and has been explained by Warren

508
00:27:23.180 --> 00:27:23.780
<v Speaker 4>is...

509
00:27:24.780 --> 00:27:27.940
<v Speaker 4>..related to a saline groundwater table that is rising

510
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:30.680
<v Speaker 4>over vast areas of the country.

511
00:27:30.900 --> 00:27:31.920
<v Speaker 4>Why is that?

512
00:27:32.460 --> 00:27:36.740
<v Speaker 4>Largely because we've removed deeper-rooting vegetation,

513
00:27:37.240 --> 00:27:39.980
<v Speaker 4>perennial vegetation that uses a lot of the rainwater,

514
00:27:40.120 --> 00:27:43.860
<v Speaker 4>put down annual crops which have a lower transpiration rate,

515
00:27:43.980 --> 00:27:46.340
<v Speaker 4>so there's more of the natural rainfall

516
00:27:46.340 --> 00:27:48.760
<v Speaker 4>that's getting down into the saline groundwater table,

517
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:52.160
<v Speaker 4>and it's just like pouring water into a glass.

518
00:27:52.180 --> 00:27:54.760
<v Speaker 4>It will just rise and tip over at the end.

519
00:27:54.780 --> 00:27:55.080
<v Speaker 4>It's just like pouring water into a glass at the top.

520
00:27:56.320 --> 00:27:58.940
<v Speaker 4>So the inevitability of this

521
00:27:58.940 --> 00:28:01.980
<v Speaker 4>is related to the type of agriculture

522
00:28:01.980 --> 00:28:04.360
<v Speaker 4>that we've imposed on our soils, our soil scape.

523
00:28:06.460 --> 00:28:09.700
<v Speaker 4>And the inequitable nature of this

524
00:28:09.700 --> 00:28:11.840
<v Speaker 4>is related pretty much to the fact

525
00:28:11.840 --> 00:28:14.960
<v Speaker 4>that it's the best land that is going first,

526
00:28:15.780 --> 00:28:18.720
<v Speaker 4>because it's on the lower fertile valleys

527
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:21.120
<v Speaker 4>where the groundwater has the first chance

528
00:28:21.780 --> 00:28:24.120
<v Speaker 4>to hit the surface and thereby affect plant growth.

529
00:28:24.940 --> 00:28:26.300
<v Speaker 4>So it's intractable.

530
00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:30.420
<v Speaker 4>Why is it that he said that we probably can't stop it?

531
00:28:32.020 --> 00:28:34.740
<v Speaker 4>Let's ask the question from a slightly different perspective

532
00:28:34.740 --> 00:28:36.180
<v Speaker 4>from my previous two speakers,

533
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:38.720
<v Speaker 4>why it is that Australia has so much of this salt.

534
00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:43.160
<v Speaker 4>What you've got to do is to think of Australia

535
00:28:43.820 --> 00:28:45.460
<v Speaker 4>as being a bit like a dinner plate.

536
00:28:46.160 --> 00:28:49.320
<v Speaker 4>Flat, not much in the way of relief,

537
00:28:49.900 --> 00:28:51.880
<v Speaker 4>and not only that, it's been sitting there

538
00:28:51.880 --> 00:28:52.860
<v Speaker 4>for an awful long time.

539
00:28:52.860 --> 00:28:56.880
<v Speaker 4>We've had glaciation affecting that land surface

540
00:28:56.880 --> 00:28:58.480
<v Speaker 4>millions of years ago.

541
00:28:58.600 --> 00:29:01.520
<v Speaker 4>The last ice sheets left Northern atmosphere

542
00:29:01.520 --> 00:29:04.280
<v Speaker 4>and North America perhaps about 10,000 years ago.

543
00:29:04.960 --> 00:29:06.640
<v Speaker 4>Swept off the weathering products,

544
00:29:06.840 --> 00:29:09.480
<v Speaker 4>of which one weathering product is salt,

545
00:29:09.580 --> 00:29:12.380
<v Speaker 4>and swept the landscape clean

546
00:29:12.380 --> 00:29:15.640
<v Speaker 4>on which new fresh soil development can take place.

547
00:29:16.100 --> 00:29:18.040
<v Speaker 4>But we've had these soils sitting there

548
00:29:18.040 --> 00:29:20.840
<v Speaker 4>in some places in Australia for maybe three million years,

549
00:29:21.700 --> 00:29:22.840
<v Speaker 4>up in parts of Australia.

550
00:29:22.860 --> 00:29:23.120
<v Speaker 4>And they're not the salt of Queensland,

551
00:29:23.300 --> 00:29:24.480
<v Speaker 4>who say they don't have a salt problem.

552
00:29:25.020 --> 00:29:27.340
<v Speaker 4>I could show them the salt profiles

553
00:29:27.340 --> 00:29:29.220
<v Speaker 4>and they're going to face the same problem

554
00:29:29.220 --> 00:29:31.140
<v Speaker 4>as Western Australia and South Australia.

555
00:29:31.880 --> 00:29:34.580
<v Speaker 4>So we've had, as Warren said,

556
00:29:34.800 --> 00:29:37.940
<v Speaker 4>a landscape that's been here for a long time,

557
00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:39.400
<v Speaker 4>and it's been weathering,

558
00:29:39.400 --> 00:29:41.500
<v Speaker 4>and it's been receiving this influx

559
00:29:41.500 --> 00:29:43.420
<v Speaker 4>of atmospheric deposition,

560
00:29:43.580 --> 00:29:46.780
<v Speaker 4>perhaps 20 to 200 kilograms per hectare per year,

561
00:29:46.880 --> 00:29:48.500
<v Speaker 4>and if you multiply that up,

562
00:29:48.540 --> 00:29:50.420
<v Speaker 4>you can soon account for most of the salt

563
00:29:50.420 --> 00:29:51.160
<v Speaker 4>that's in the landscape.

564
00:29:52.860 --> 00:29:53.720
<v Speaker 4>We've had tectonic activity,

565
00:29:53.920 --> 00:29:58.280
<v Speaker 4>uprise to again cause some sort of weathering

566
00:29:58.280 --> 00:29:59.360
<v Speaker 4>and flushing out, if you like,

567
00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:00.760
<v Speaker 4>of the old weathering products.

568
00:30:01.320 --> 00:30:04.000
<v Speaker 4>So it's a geological and pedological problem

569
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:05.580
<v Speaker 4>that we have here on a vast scale.

570
00:30:06.060 --> 00:30:09.000
<v Speaker 4>And Australia certainly has very large areas

571
00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:10.000
<v Speaker 4>of dryland salinity,

572
00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:11.660
<v Speaker 4>which stagger the imagination.

573
00:30:12.680 --> 00:30:16.220
<v Speaker 4>We're looking at about six million hectares

574
00:30:16.220 --> 00:30:17.400
<v Speaker 4>at the moment that are going out

575
00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:19.060
<v Speaker 4>to this so-called seepage salinity.

576
00:30:19.520 --> 00:30:21.640
<v Speaker 4>And the projections are,

577
00:30:21.640 --> 00:30:23.120
<v Speaker 4>from our research group,

578
00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:25.760
<v Speaker 4>that it'll probably go to 17 million.

579
00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:27.480
<v Speaker 4>It's very large.

580
00:30:27.900 --> 00:30:32.200
<v Speaker 4>And the effect on the Australian economy here

581
00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:36.440
<v Speaker 4>is probably in the order of around $300 million a year.

582
00:30:38.840 --> 00:30:42.180
<v Speaker 4>The scale of intervention to prevent that is enormous,

583
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:45.040
<v Speaker 4>and we've only just realised just what's going to be required

584
00:30:45.040 --> 00:30:45.980
<v Speaker 4>to stop that.

585
00:30:46.140 --> 00:30:48.120
<v Speaker 4>Indeed, we're still not sure whether we can.

586
00:30:48.820 --> 00:30:50.060
<v Speaker 4>Again, as Warren said,

587
00:30:50.060 --> 00:30:52.420
<v Speaker 4>there's going to have to be a mix of intervention

588
00:30:53.060 --> 00:30:54.660
<v Speaker 4>in the form of engineering,

589
00:30:54.880 --> 00:30:56.760
<v Speaker 4>massive drainage works.

590
00:30:56.900 --> 00:30:59.440
<v Speaker 4>For example, in Western Australia,

591
00:30:59.600 --> 00:31:01.420
<v Speaker 4>just about every stream

592
00:31:01.420 --> 00:31:04.380
<v Speaker 4>is now pretty much a basket case,

593
00:31:04.560 --> 00:31:06.780
<v Speaker 4>and every lowland area

594
00:31:06.780 --> 00:31:09.000
<v Speaker 4>in southwest Western Australia,

595
00:31:09.820 --> 00:31:11.500
<v Speaker 4>particularly where there's heavy soils,

596
00:31:11.700 --> 00:31:13.100
<v Speaker 4>will be lost to salinity,

597
00:31:13.160 --> 00:31:18.560
<v Speaker 4>even with vast amounts of intervention.

598
00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:19.920
<v Speaker 4>So, again, we're looking at a lot of data.

599
00:31:20.060 --> 00:31:28.380
<v Speaker 4>We're looking at the effects of the

600
00:31:28.380 --> 00:31:29.560
<v Speaker 4>impact of the

601
00:31:35.060 --> 00:31:41.060
<v Speaker 4>!

602
00:31:50.060 --> 00:31:53.100
<v Speaker 4>And in many parts of the Australian continent,

603
00:31:53.260 --> 00:31:56.400
<v Speaker 4>it will probably mean that we will render

604
00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:58.400
<v Speaker 4>the agriculture uneconomic.

605
00:31:59.100 --> 00:32:02.120
<v Speaker 4>A modelling study over here at Vanilla Catchment

606
00:32:02.120 --> 00:32:03.520
<v Speaker 4>just recently was published,

607
00:32:03.620 --> 00:32:06.220
<v Speaker 4>and they looked at scenarios of intervention

608
00:32:06.220 --> 00:32:08.820
<v Speaker 4>and how we could stop this rising seepage salinity,

609
00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:11.280
<v Speaker 4>and they were looking at scenarios

610
00:32:11.280 --> 00:32:15.120
<v Speaker 4>of around 50% of the landscape going back into trees,

611
00:32:15.180 --> 00:32:17.300
<v Speaker 4>which would make it agriculturally uneconomic.

612
00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:19.020
<v Speaker 4>And even that would only protect,

613
00:32:19.020 --> 00:32:22.260
<v Speaker 4>or prevent, about 13% to 20%

614
00:32:22.260 --> 00:32:24.800
<v Speaker 4>of the increase in salinity

615
00:32:24.800 --> 00:32:26.680
<v Speaker 4>that was inevitable if they did nothing at all.

616
00:32:26.900 --> 00:32:28.560
<v Speaker 4>So I hope you get the impression

617
00:32:28.560 --> 00:32:31.480
<v Speaker 4>that we have to have massive intervention.

618
00:32:32.300 --> 00:32:34.440
<v Speaker 4>And the science is still not there,

619
00:32:34.520 --> 00:32:37.220
<v Speaker 4>because the way in which we're going to have to look at this,

620
00:32:37.260 --> 00:32:38.640
<v Speaker 4>I think, is, first of all,

621
00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:42.080
<v Speaker 4>a reconstruction of the whole of our landscape,

622
00:32:42.260 --> 00:32:43.500
<v Speaker 4>particularly in southern Australia,

623
00:32:44.260 --> 00:32:46.380
<v Speaker 4>on a scale that we had not thought of before.

624
00:32:47.160 --> 00:32:49.000
<v Speaker 4>Secondly, I think that we are going to have to look at this,

625
00:32:49.020 --> 00:32:50.480
<v Speaker 4>we're going to have to adapt to salt,

626
00:32:50.620 --> 00:32:52.000
<v Speaker 4>we're going to have to learn to live with it.

627
00:32:54.800 --> 00:32:57.720
<v Speaker 4>Thirdly, we must try and restore some of the landscape,

628
00:32:58.320 --> 00:33:00.000
<v Speaker 4>but that will be very difficult indeed.

629
00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:02.880
<v Speaker 4>So you tell me, if we do some drainage,

630
00:33:03.040 --> 00:33:04.900
<v Speaker 4>out goes the salt, you know, we flush it out,

631
00:33:05.040 --> 00:33:06.020
<v Speaker 4>no problem.

632
00:33:06.940 --> 00:33:08.780
<v Speaker 4>No. Unfortunately, what you have to realise

633
00:33:08.780 --> 00:33:11.400
<v Speaker 4>is that there's a nasty little cousin to salinity.

634
00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:13.040
<v Speaker 4>It's called sodicity.

635
00:33:14.180 --> 00:33:17.080
<v Speaker 4>Sodicity is where you have the sodium ion,

636
00:33:17.520 --> 00:33:18.760
<v Speaker 4>and it attaches,

637
00:33:19.740 --> 00:33:23.740
<v Speaker 4>sodium chloride, as Warren and Peter said,

638
00:33:23.820 --> 00:33:25.740
<v Speaker 4>is the main salt that we're dealing with here.

639
00:33:25.880 --> 00:33:28.740
<v Speaker 4>What happens is that that sodium attaches to clay.

640
00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:30.780
<v Speaker 4>Clay's in the soil.

641
00:33:31.060 --> 00:33:32.840
<v Speaker 4>When it attaches to clay in the soil,

642
00:33:32.940 --> 00:33:34.280
<v Speaker 4>it causes dispersion.

643
00:33:34.280 --> 00:33:37.300
<v Speaker 4>The clay structure of the soil breaks down,

644
00:33:37.420 --> 00:33:39.060
<v Speaker 4>and what you get is a hard pan.

645
00:33:39.300 --> 00:33:41.720
<v Speaker 4>Not only that, if you've had salinity there for a long time,

646
00:33:41.840 --> 00:33:44.140
<v Speaker 4>you've had weathering of the clay minerals,

647
00:33:44.220 --> 00:33:46.500
<v Speaker 4>and you get the mobilisation of iron and manganese,

648
00:33:46.500 --> 00:33:48.760
<v Speaker 4>and intractable compounds like that,

649
00:33:49.020 --> 00:33:50.200
<v Speaker 4>which when you drain it and they dry,

650
00:33:50.340 --> 00:33:52.960
<v Speaker 4>you basically form a brick as solid as that.

651
00:33:53.160 --> 00:33:56.680
<v Speaker 4>So there are environments where we know we will never restore,

652
00:33:56.880 --> 00:33:59.700
<v Speaker 4>and we're just going to have to have the fourth method of adaptation,

653
00:33:59.840 --> 00:34:03.360
<v Speaker 4>which is just leave it there, nothing we can do about it.

654
00:34:03.540 --> 00:34:07.180
<v Speaker 4>So restoration, adaptation, prevention and removal

655
00:34:07.180 --> 00:34:08.480
<v Speaker 4>out of any form of production

656
00:34:08.480 --> 00:34:11.860
<v Speaker 4>are some of the mixes of responses that we're going to have to make.

657
00:34:12.760 --> 00:34:16.340
<v Speaker 4>The science is not totally there yet.

658
00:34:16.380 --> 00:34:19.000
<v Speaker 4>We need to have a much greater effort

659
00:34:19.020 --> 00:34:22.860
<v Speaker 4>in adaptation of new salt-tolerant species,

660
00:34:23.040 --> 00:34:25.840
<v Speaker 4>so a great deal of genetics is going to have to be involved here.

661
00:34:25.980 --> 00:34:30.660
<v Speaker 4>We're going to have to look at new forms of woody perennials

662
00:34:30.660 --> 00:34:32.380
<v Speaker 4>and herbaceous perennials in the landscape.

663
00:34:32.680 --> 00:34:35.020
<v Speaker 4>Whether we can get any of these at an economic level

664
00:34:35.020 --> 00:34:36.600
<v Speaker 4>is uncertain at this stage.

665
00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:39.400
<v Speaker 4>There are some encouraging signs, like oil mallies and things,

666
00:34:39.560 --> 00:34:41.540
<v Speaker 4>but it's early days yet.

667
00:34:42.100 --> 00:34:43.840
<v Speaker 4>The strange part about all this, though,

668
00:34:43.860 --> 00:34:48.480
<v Speaker 4>is that we're talking about a situation

669
00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:51.260
<v Speaker 4>where we have a lot of saline water,

670
00:34:51.380 --> 00:34:54.880
<v Speaker 4>and yet the amount of fresh water per person in Australia is...

671
00:34:54.880 --> 00:34:57.640
<v Speaker 4>I think it puts us as a nation on the top of the list.

672
00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:02.700
<v Speaker 4>That is because in the north, we have huge quantities of fresh water,

673
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:04.760
<v Speaker 4>and this is a festival idea,

674
00:35:04.900 --> 00:35:06.420
<v Speaker 4>so I'll just project out and say

675
00:35:06.420 --> 00:35:10.280
<v Speaker 4>that I think we're going to have to have a massive relocation of population,

676
00:35:10.340 --> 00:35:12.840
<v Speaker 4>or if not population, then we're going to have to

677
00:35:12.840 --> 00:35:14.580
<v Speaker 4>at least change our agriculture

678
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:18.460
<v Speaker 4>to a more tropical and subtropical basis.

679
00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:21.040
<v Speaker 4>People might disagree with me.

680
00:35:21.040 --> 00:35:22.940
<v Speaker 4>I'll just feed that in there for your thoughts.

681
00:35:24.300 --> 00:35:26.220
<v Speaker 4>Now, if you thought all that was bad enough,

682
00:35:26.260 --> 00:35:29.640
<v Speaker 4>let me say there is another form of salinity

683
00:35:29.640 --> 00:35:33.260
<v Speaker 4>which is a whole lot worse than the one that we've been talking about today.

684
00:35:33.980 --> 00:35:37.320
<v Speaker 4>We've been talking about this rise of saline groundwater

685
00:35:37.320 --> 00:35:38.840
<v Speaker 4>in the lower parts of the landscape.

686
00:35:39.020 --> 00:35:40.060
<v Speaker 4>It caught the public imagination.

687
00:35:40.700 --> 00:35:43.260
<v Speaker 4>Fields of white salt all over the Mallee

688
00:35:43.260 --> 00:35:45.500
<v Speaker 4>and down in Western Australia and parts of Victoria,

689
00:35:45.560 --> 00:35:47.020
<v Speaker 4>around Kerrang, et cetera, et cetera.

690
00:35:47.180 --> 00:35:48.460
<v Speaker 4>And I've said it could go to seven million people

691
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:50.800
<v Speaker 4>and 17 million hectares.

692
00:35:51.300 --> 00:35:54.060
<v Speaker 4>There is another form of salinity which expresses itself,

693
00:35:54.240 --> 00:35:58.280
<v Speaker 4>again, because of the extreme weathering of our Australian soils.

694
00:35:58.560 --> 00:36:00.600
<v Speaker 4>It is below the surface,

695
00:36:00.700 --> 00:36:01.940
<v Speaker 4>so we have a cultivated layer

696
00:36:01.940 --> 00:36:03.880
<v Speaker 4>where we've got our crops and things growing,

697
00:36:04.040 --> 00:36:08.240
<v Speaker 4>but somewhere 10, 20, 30 centimetres down, 40 centimetres down,

698
00:36:08.300 --> 00:36:11.100
<v Speaker 4>we have over much of the continent a clay layer.

699
00:36:11.740 --> 00:36:13.120
<v Speaker 4>And in that clay layer,

700
00:36:13.200 --> 00:36:16.920
<v Speaker 4>we have a perched water table

701
00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:18.460
<v Speaker 4>that develops seasonable water.

702
00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:20.320
<v Speaker 4>Largely because, as you can imagine,

703
00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:23.620
<v Speaker 4>down goes the water from the rain into the A horizon,

704
00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:25.700
<v Speaker 4>which is coarser textured, hits the surface

705
00:36:25.700 --> 00:36:27.900
<v Speaker 4>and it doesn't go through very rapidly,

706
00:36:28.100 --> 00:36:28.720
<v Speaker 4>just sits there.

707
00:36:29.520 --> 00:36:32.160
<v Speaker 4>That causes a concentration of the salt

708
00:36:32.740 --> 00:36:34.940
<v Speaker 4>in the soil solution at that point.

709
00:36:35.640 --> 00:36:37.260
<v Speaker 4>And what happens as a result,

710
00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:40.520
<v Speaker 4>it's not very large, not like the salt that we're talking about here

711
00:36:40.520 --> 00:36:42.600
<v Speaker 4>in the seepage salinity.

712
00:36:42.780 --> 00:36:44.780
<v Speaker 4>Maybe it won't mean much to you,

713
00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:47.900
<v Speaker 4>but two to maybe 20 decisenes per metre.

714
00:36:47.900 --> 00:36:49.860
<v Speaker 4>But it's enough, take home message,

715
00:36:50.040 --> 00:36:54.060
<v Speaker 4>it's enough to severely impact on crop growth,

716
00:36:54.200 --> 00:36:58.580
<v Speaker 4>particularly of annuals, wheat, barley, cereals of that type.

717
00:36:58.860 --> 00:37:04.180
<v Speaker 4>And we reckon that we should be getting double the wheat yield.

718
00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:06.120
<v Speaker 4>Despite our low rainfall relatively,

719
00:37:06.440 --> 00:37:09.820
<v Speaker 4>we should be getting double the yields that we are getting.

720
00:37:09.940 --> 00:37:11.920
<v Speaker 4>And we think it's almost certainly the fact

721
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:14.800
<v Speaker 4>that we have got this intractable problem

722
00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:17.260
<v Speaker 4>of salinity building up in our subsoils.

723
00:37:17.900 --> 00:37:20.300
<v Speaker 4>And we need to do something about that.

724
00:37:20.360 --> 00:37:22.860
<v Speaker 4>And what I'd like to leave you with is the fact

725
00:37:22.860 --> 00:37:25.540
<v Speaker 4>that that is affecting ten times the area

726
00:37:25.540 --> 00:37:28.400
<v Speaker 4>of this seepage salinity that's caught so much

727
00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:30.580
<v Speaker 4>of the political, economic and public imagination.

728
00:37:31.160 --> 00:37:33.480
<v Speaker 4>And there's some new science that's required,

729
00:37:33.720 --> 00:37:34.720
<v Speaker 4>which we don't have.

730
00:37:34.820 --> 00:37:38.400
<v Speaker 4>New plants and new investigations

731
00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:41.620
<v Speaker 4>of intervention into that subsoil.

732
00:37:42.280 --> 00:37:45.780
<v Speaker 4>Australian soils are very hostile to plant roots,

733
00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:47.880
<v Speaker 4>unlike many other parts of the world.

734
00:37:47.900 --> 00:37:50.040
<v Speaker 4>And so we need a lot more science.

735
00:37:50.120 --> 00:37:53.820
<v Speaker 4>We need a lot more political and public will

736
00:37:53.820 --> 00:37:55.800
<v Speaker 4>to recognise the scale of the problem.

737
00:37:55.920 --> 00:37:58.140
<v Speaker 4>And that unless we do that,

738
00:37:58.240 --> 00:38:00.300
<v Speaker 4>just as our previous two speakers said,

739
00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:02.740
<v Speaker 4>we are in great trouble.

740
00:38:02.860 --> 00:38:06.720
<v Speaker 4>And it will indeed be inevitable, inequitable and intractable.

741
00:38:20.540 --> 00:38:21.540
<v Speaker 6>Ladies and gentlemen,

742
00:38:21.660 --> 00:38:23.980
<v Speaker 6>the title of this talk takes growth as a given.

743
00:38:24.580 --> 00:38:26.140
<v Speaker 6>Implied is that growth is a good

744
00:38:26.140 --> 00:38:28.180
<v Speaker 6>or a necessary condition of life.

745
00:38:28.760 --> 00:38:29.660
<v Speaker 6>Is this so?

746
00:38:29.720 --> 00:38:31.500
<v Speaker 6>And is growth limited to the economic kind?

747
00:38:32.360 --> 00:38:34.560
<v Speaker 6>This is outside my brief, but warrants attention.

748
00:38:35.540 --> 00:38:38.200
<v Speaker 6>I want to be a bit optimistic about this subject

749
00:38:38.200 --> 00:38:39.660
<v Speaker 6>to create a silver cloud

750
00:38:39.660 --> 00:38:43.100
<v Speaker 6>and then to return to this black lining just at the end.

751
00:38:43.540 --> 00:38:44.600
<v Speaker 6>Why be optimistic?

752
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:47.580
<v Speaker 6>I see the pessimistic landscape

753
00:38:47.580 --> 00:38:48.880
<v Speaker 6>as well and truly occupied.

754
00:38:49.500 --> 00:38:51.000
<v Speaker 6>There are vast entrenchments

755
00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:52.380
<v Speaker 6>from the high ground to the low ground.

756
00:38:52.640 --> 00:38:53.700
<v Speaker 6>There's no room for nothing.

757
00:38:53.880 --> 00:38:55.940
<v Speaker 6>There seems to be little room for something new.

758
00:38:57.140 --> 00:38:59.800
<v Speaker 6>Secondly, while pessimism is good to raise the alarm,

759
00:38:59.960 --> 00:39:02.600
<v Speaker 6>it is of little use to somebody seeking to do something

760
00:39:02.600 --> 00:39:04.960
<v Speaker 6>about a problematic situation.

761
00:39:05.980 --> 00:39:08.640
<v Speaker 6>The third reason is I see some reason for optimism,

762
00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:10.700
<v Speaker 6>at least for a generation or so.

763
00:39:11.620 --> 00:39:13.680
<v Speaker 6>When the Malthus to Paul Ehrlich tradition

764
00:39:13.680 --> 00:39:16.780
<v Speaker 6>told us that population without strip food production,

765
00:39:16.940 --> 00:39:17.560
<v Speaker 6>they were wrong.

766
00:39:17.580 --> 00:39:19.540
<v Speaker 6>They were projecting the present events into the future.

767
00:39:19.860 --> 00:39:22.680
<v Speaker 6>They weren't sufficiently allowing for people's reactions

768
00:39:22.680 --> 00:39:23.420
<v Speaker 6>to these problems.

769
00:39:24.320 --> 00:39:26.300
<v Speaker 6>But many systems are not like this.

770
00:39:26.500 --> 00:39:28.500
<v Speaker 6>They inherently react to themselves,

771
00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:31.220
<v Speaker 6>to preserve themselves.

772
00:39:31.580 --> 00:39:33.260
<v Speaker 6>The medicos call this homeostasis.

773
00:39:33.620 --> 00:39:35.520
<v Speaker 6>The engineers call it cybernetics.

774
00:39:35.780 --> 00:39:38.100
<v Speaker 6>It's not an externally controlled process.

775
00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:40.920
<v Speaker 6>It's internal and automatically reactive.

776
00:39:42.180 --> 00:39:44.300
<v Speaker 6>Increasingly, many people see our biosphere

777
00:39:44.300 --> 00:39:45.900
<v Speaker 6>as a single living organism,

778
00:39:45.900 --> 00:39:47.820
<v Speaker 6>exhibiting homeostasis.

779
00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:50.900
<v Speaker 6>The idea was popularised by Lovelock in the 1970s

780
00:39:51.660 --> 00:39:52.880
<v Speaker 6>as the Gaia principle,

781
00:39:53.120 --> 00:39:55.260
<v Speaker 6>named for the Greek goddess of the Earth.

782
00:39:55.740 --> 00:39:57.720
<v Speaker 6>His ideas arose from the observation

783
00:39:57.720 --> 00:39:59.620
<v Speaker 6>that many of the governing conditions of life

784
00:39:59.620 --> 00:40:02.980
<v Speaker 6>seem to vary in spite of the assaults of ultraviolet light

785
00:40:02.980 --> 00:40:05.520
<v Speaker 6>and asteroid collisions as we have experienced.

786
00:40:06.040 --> 00:40:08.980
<v Speaker 6>To give one example, although the energy output of the sun

787
00:40:08.980 --> 00:40:11.560
<v Speaker 6>has increased by some 30% since life began,

788
00:40:11.820 --> 00:40:15.440
<v Speaker 6>the average temperatures have stayed between 10 degrees and 20 degrees.

789
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:17.740
<v Speaker 6>We have neither frozen nor boiled,

790
00:40:17.880 --> 00:40:19.840
<v Speaker 6>as we would have on the surface of Mars.

791
00:40:20.920 --> 00:40:23.820
<v Speaker 6>Lovelock used a metaphor of a world of black and white daisies

792
00:40:23.820 --> 00:40:24.620
<v Speaker 6>to explain this.

793
00:40:24.800 --> 00:40:26.180
<v Speaker 6>In this imaginary world,

794
00:40:26.380 --> 00:40:27.880
<v Speaker 6>when the temperature increases,

795
00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:30.040
<v Speaker 6>life forms like white daisies prosper,

796
00:40:30.640 --> 00:40:31.760
<v Speaker 6>reflecting more light

797
00:40:32.260 --> 00:40:34.300
<v Speaker 6>and driving the temperature down to the point

798
00:40:34.300 --> 00:40:36.520
<v Speaker 6>where black daisies that absorb light and heat

799
00:40:36.520 --> 00:40:38.840
<v Speaker 6>heat the Earth, are favoured, and so on.

800
00:40:40.060 --> 00:40:43.200
<v Speaker 6>Water, liquid and vapour balances are key daisies in this mechanism,

801
00:40:43.420 --> 00:40:45.120
<v Speaker 6>and salt, the ions of which are essential

802
00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:47.080
<v Speaker 6>for all cellular life, is another.

803
00:40:48.540 --> 00:40:50.860
<v Speaker 6>Please note that we as humans and Australians

804
00:40:50.860 --> 00:40:53.000
<v Speaker 6>are part of this system, this mechanism.

805
00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:55.460
<v Speaker 6>We cannot hide from it,

806
00:40:55.540 --> 00:40:57.700
<v Speaker 6>so I'm going to give you some international examples

807
00:40:57.700 --> 00:40:59.380
<v Speaker 6>of what we can do with salt and water.

808
00:41:00.660 --> 00:41:02.600
<v Speaker 6>Geologists tell us that the salinity of the sea

809
00:41:02.600 --> 00:41:04.480
<v Speaker 6>has not changed much since life began,

810
00:41:05.440 --> 00:41:07.320
<v Speaker 6>and certainly not enough to threaten it.

811
00:41:07.600 --> 00:41:10.680
<v Speaker 6>To calculate the age of the seas and known salt inputs

812
00:41:10.680 --> 00:41:14.480
<v Speaker 6>and rivers and tectonic processes gives only about 60 million years,

813
00:41:14.480 --> 00:41:17.260
<v Speaker 6>not the more than 3.5 billion years

814
00:41:17.260 --> 00:41:18.700
<v Speaker 6>that has been in existence.

815
00:41:19.740 --> 00:41:22.140
<v Speaker 6>Lovelock says that if salt had accumulated like this,

816
00:41:22.240 --> 00:41:25.060
<v Speaker 6>the concentration would now far exceed the 6%

817
00:41:25.060 --> 00:41:26.980
<v Speaker 6>of which most living cells would fly to pieces.

818
00:41:27.800 --> 00:41:29.260
<v Speaker 6>So where is all this salt going?

819
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:31.200
<v Speaker 6>It's clearly cycling,

820
00:41:31.400 --> 00:41:33.620
<v Speaker 6>but what are the sinks and where is it hiding?

821
00:41:34.740 --> 00:41:37.580
<v Speaker 6>Evaporation in shallow seas undoubtedly accounts for a lot,

822
00:41:37.680 --> 00:41:40.160
<v Speaker 6>and it hides there in clay-covered sediments

823
00:41:40.160 --> 00:41:41.960
<v Speaker 6>that sink under the weight of the clay.

824
00:41:42.760 --> 00:41:44.400
<v Speaker 6>Lovelock says that if these processes

825
00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:46.300
<v Speaker 6>operated purely inorganically,

826
00:41:46.420 --> 00:41:47.840
<v Speaker 6>they would have been random

827
00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:50.920
<v Speaker 6>and produced variations impossible for life as we know it.

828
00:41:51.180 --> 00:41:54.780
<v Speaker 6>He suggests biological processes such as our Great Barrier Reef

829
00:41:54.780 --> 00:41:58.260
<v Speaker 6>and ancient stromatolites forming additional evaporation basins

830
00:41:58.260 --> 00:42:00.200
<v Speaker 6>when conditions encourage this,

831
00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:03.040
<v Speaker 6>as the daisies in the salinity system.

832
00:42:03.500 --> 00:42:04.940
<v Speaker 6>As Professor Warren has said,

833
00:42:05.860 --> 00:42:08.980
<v Speaker 6>actually it was Australian scientist Teekal

834
00:42:08.980 --> 00:42:10.280
<v Speaker 6>who pointed out in 1937

835
00:42:10.280 --> 00:42:13.740
<v Speaker 6>that 80% of the salt in our soils

836
00:42:13.740 --> 00:42:15.100
<v Speaker 6>comes from precipitation

837
00:42:16.600 --> 00:42:20.240
<v Speaker 6>and not from the normal weathering that many people see.

838
00:42:20.620 --> 00:42:23.060
<v Speaker 6>This seems to me to be the link with homostasis,

839
00:42:23.180 --> 00:42:27.900
<v Speaker 6>the daisies in the system being salt, rainfall and soil plant processes,

840
00:42:28.200 --> 00:42:31.180
<v Speaker 6>and the scale may be sufficient to influence ocean salinity.

841
00:42:32.020 --> 00:42:35.680
<v Speaker 6>We humans have now influenced this, at least on land.

842
00:42:36.060 --> 00:42:38.220
<v Speaker 6>Perhaps we can react to what we've done.

843
00:42:39.540 --> 00:42:40.520
<v Speaker 6>But can we?

844
00:42:40.540 --> 00:42:43.240
<v Speaker 6>Is there any evidence that we can react at the necessary speed,

845
00:42:43.740 --> 00:42:45.080
<v Speaker 6>for homostasis to occur?

846
00:42:45.480 --> 00:42:48.240
<v Speaker 6>The answer seems to be yes, at least so far.

847
00:42:48.540 --> 00:42:51.800
<v Speaker 6>There are many examples where we have speedily got ourselves into trouble,

848
00:42:51.900 --> 00:42:54.020
<v Speaker 6>and just as speedily got ourselves out of it.

849
00:42:54.280 --> 00:42:56.600
<v Speaker 6>One very good example is CFCs,

850
00:42:56.600 --> 00:42:58.180
<v Speaker 6>discovered about 70 odd years ago,

851
00:42:58.400 --> 00:43:00.980
<v Speaker 6>detected in the atmosphere about 30 years ago,

852
00:43:01.160 --> 00:43:03.900
<v Speaker 6>perceived as a global threat about 20 years ago.

853
00:43:04.280 --> 00:43:07.660
<v Speaker 6>The reaction was a treaty to eliminate its use 10 years ago,

854
00:43:07.860 --> 00:43:10.860
<v Speaker 6>with the apparent result that the loss of ozone

855
00:43:10.860 --> 00:43:12.740
<v Speaker 6>has reached only 4% in 2000,

856
00:43:12.740 --> 00:43:14.180
<v Speaker 6>instead of 10%,

857
00:43:14.740 --> 00:43:15.580
<v Speaker 6>and is still dropping.

858
00:43:15.900 --> 00:43:19.340
<v Speaker 6>Even laissez-faire capitalist China has reacted positively.

859
00:43:20.280 --> 00:43:23.020
<v Speaker 6>Other examples, atmospheric bomb testing,

860
00:43:23.400 --> 00:43:25.260
<v Speaker 6>the reappearance of salmon in the Thames,

861
00:43:25.320 --> 00:43:26.640
<v Speaker 6>smog reductions in Britain,

862
00:43:26.720 --> 00:43:29.240
<v Speaker 6>and mercury pollution reductions in Japanese seas.

863
00:43:29.580 --> 00:43:32.340
<v Speaker 6>There are more trees in the eastern United States now

864
00:43:32.340 --> 00:43:33.520
<v Speaker 6>than there were 100 years ago.

865
00:43:34.740 --> 00:43:37.740
<v Speaker 6>History shows that we were already reacting to the fears of famine

866
00:43:37.740 --> 00:43:41.340
<v Speaker 6>when the Club of Rome articulated these in the 1970s.

867
00:43:41.340 --> 00:43:42.520
<v Speaker 6>And what a reaction.

868
00:43:43.140 --> 00:43:46.080
<v Speaker 6>Not only was famine abated in aggregate sense,

869
00:43:46.320 --> 00:43:50.180
<v Speaker 6>but the productivity of irrigation water increased by 3.3 times,

870
00:43:50.320 --> 00:43:53.680
<v Speaker 6>and the real cost of grain-based foods dropped by 50%

871
00:43:53.680 --> 00:43:55.860
<v Speaker 6>between the 1960s and the 1990s.

872
00:43:56.480 --> 00:43:58.940
<v Speaker 6>The International Water Management Institute points out

873
00:43:58.940 --> 00:44:01.480
<v Speaker 6>that although plant breeding is usually given credit for this,

874
00:44:01.700 --> 00:44:04.460
<v Speaker 6>the improvement in water use efficiency was a greater achievement.

875
00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:06.880
<v Speaker 6>Some shavies should have called it a blue revolution.

876
00:44:07.700 --> 00:44:09.340
<v Speaker 6>There were two main reasons for this.

877
00:44:09.340 --> 00:44:11.800
<v Speaker 6>Firstly, because once the crop canopy is closed,

878
00:44:12.160 --> 00:44:14.880
<v Speaker 6>water use no longer rises proportionally with yield.

879
00:44:15.400 --> 00:44:17.960
<v Speaker 6>And secondly, because water storage and canals

880
00:44:17.960 --> 00:44:20.360
<v Speaker 6>multiply the number of times water can be used in irrigation.

881
00:44:21.500 --> 00:44:23.020
<v Speaker 6>There is more that can be done.

882
00:44:23.240 --> 00:44:25.440
<v Speaker 6>The International Water Management Institute estimates

883
00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:27.640
<v Speaker 6>some 2.5 billion people will experience

884
00:44:27.640 --> 00:44:30.620
<v Speaker 6>serious water supply problems within 50 years.

885
00:44:31.060 --> 00:44:33.720
<v Speaker 6>The great problem here is the North China Plains,

886
00:44:33.760 --> 00:44:35.460
<v Speaker 6>and Punjab and India and Pakistan.

887
00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:38.920
<v Speaker 6>And a particular concern is the depleting water tables

888
00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:41.920
<v Speaker 6>in both places that will not be cheap or easy to solve.

889
00:44:42.380 --> 00:44:46.420
<v Speaker 6>But China, India, Africa and Australia all have water surpluses,

890
00:44:46.700 --> 00:44:50.000
<v Speaker 6>areas where water might be diverted into existing systems

891
00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:52.720
<v Speaker 6>and perhaps even re-injected into some aquifers.

892
00:44:53.040 --> 00:44:55.580
<v Speaker 6>These, however, are high-energy infrastructure solutions

893
00:44:55.580 --> 00:44:59.260
<v Speaker 6>that require a shift in Western thinking if they're to be funded,

894
00:44:59.420 --> 00:45:00.740
<v Speaker 6>except in China.

895
00:45:01.360 --> 00:45:03.440
<v Speaker 6>Water supply can be a deceptive matter.

896
00:45:03.920 --> 00:45:08.100
<v Speaker 6>Water from precipitation is a renewable, non-depletable resource,

897
00:45:08.100 --> 00:45:10.600
<v Speaker 6>one of the few, in that you start each year

898
00:45:10.600 --> 00:45:12.800
<v Speaker 6>with much the same potential average amount.

899
00:45:13.720 --> 00:45:17.260
<v Speaker 6>Secondary water supplies, such as dams and hydro schemes and canals,

900
00:45:17.360 --> 00:45:19.600
<v Speaker 6>constitute multipliers of the primary supply,

901
00:45:20.100 --> 00:45:22.400
<v Speaker 6>and these can mean that the sum of all deliverables

902
00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:24.200
<v Speaker 6>can be much more than the primary supply.

903
00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:27.520
<v Speaker 6>In dry farming and grazing areas,

904
00:45:27.540 --> 00:45:29.760
<v Speaker 6>such as much of Australia and sub-Saharan Africa,

905
00:45:30.380 --> 00:45:31.700
<v Speaker 6>climate is a kind of accident,

906
00:45:31.960 --> 00:45:34.980
<v Speaker 6>and may get more so from what we've just been hearing.

907
00:45:35.500 --> 00:45:37.980
<v Speaker 6>But they still produce huge fluctuating resources,

908
00:45:37.980 --> 00:45:39.780
<v Speaker 6>in the form of grass and shrublands.

909
00:45:40.120 --> 00:45:42.500
<v Speaker 6>It has always amazed me that we've done so little

910
00:45:42.500 --> 00:45:45.540
<v Speaker 6>to capitalise on the capacity of our kangaroos and emus

911
00:45:45.540 --> 00:45:48.140
<v Speaker 6>to chase storms to produce usable protein,

912
00:45:48.360 --> 00:45:51.080
<v Speaker 6>instead of trying to push the boundaries of our imported animals

913
00:45:51.080 --> 00:45:55.060
<v Speaker 6>and sedentary land tidal systems developed for a different place.

914
00:45:55.760 --> 00:45:57.980
<v Speaker 6>I hope addressing our reconciliation needs

915
00:45:58.840 --> 00:46:01.420
<v Speaker 6>involves utilising Indigenous knowledge in these areas.

916
00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:02.940
<v Speaker 6>And what of salt?

917
00:46:03.400 --> 00:46:05.200
<v Speaker 6>As we've heard, salt of the earth.

918
00:46:05.380 --> 00:46:06.700
<v Speaker 6>In some places and times,

919
00:46:06.700 --> 00:46:09.100
<v Speaker 6>its scarcity has made it a traded good,

920
00:46:09.220 --> 00:46:10.940
<v Speaker 6>and a salary for Roman soldiers.

921
00:46:11.440 --> 00:46:14.060
<v Speaker 6>In other times, concentration is deadly to life,

922
00:46:14.240 --> 00:46:17.520
<v Speaker 6>hence the fable of ploughing salt into the Carthaginian farmlands

923
00:46:17.520 --> 00:46:18.460
<v Speaker 6>by the same Romans.

924
00:46:19.420 --> 00:46:21.300
<v Speaker 6>Salt has been a more intractable problem

925
00:46:21.300 --> 00:46:22.700
<v Speaker 6>than food production and water use.

926
00:46:22.980 --> 00:46:24.080
<v Speaker 6>It is insidious.

927
00:46:24.120 --> 00:46:27.500
<v Speaker 6>Its causes and impacts don't often coincide in time or space.

928
00:46:27.940 --> 00:46:29.840
<v Speaker 6>Not knowing who or what is to blame,

929
00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:32.480
<v Speaker 6>we've usually moved on when the problem gets bad enough.

930
00:46:32.860 --> 00:46:35.120
<v Speaker 6>The empires of the Fertile Crescent,

931
00:46:35.120 --> 00:46:36.540
<v Speaker 6>the Indus, the Inca,

932
00:46:36.660 --> 00:46:38.120
<v Speaker 6>all have moved on because of salt.

933
00:46:38.280 --> 00:46:40.280
<v Speaker 6>As will many farmers in West Australia,

934
00:46:40.420 --> 00:46:41.340
<v Speaker 6>the way things are going.

935
00:46:42.180 --> 00:46:42.940
<v Speaker 6>What of the future?

936
00:46:43.240 --> 00:46:45.700
<v Speaker 6>We will need more food in the next 50 years

937
00:46:45.700 --> 00:46:47.860
<v Speaker 6>than was consumed in the last 10,000 years,

938
00:46:48.400 --> 00:46:50.700
<v Speaker 6>even with declining population rates.

939
00:46:50.940 --> 00:46:52.020
<v Speaker 6>A frightening thought.

940
00:46:52.820 --> 00:46:54.080
<v Speaker 6>According to the CSIRO,

941
00:46:54.100 --> 00:46:55.980
<v Speaker 6>we can expect quantum leaps in productivity

942
00:46:55.980 --> 00:46:57.880
<v Speaker 6>and other benefits from genetic engineering.

943
00:46:58.460 --> 00:47:01.220
<v Speaker 6>This refers mostly to classic freshwater agriculture.

944
00:47:02.020 --> 00:47:04.520
<v Speaker 6>They note that a combination of classical plant breeding

945
00:47:04.520 --> 00:47:06.580
<v Speaker 6>and genetic engineering can also be applied

946
00:47:06.580 --> 00:47:09.000
<v Speaker 6>to adapting plants to waterlogging and salinity.

947
00:47:09.840 --> 00:47:11.320
<v Speaker 6>We should watch this space,

948
00:47:11.460 --> 00:47:14.140
<v Speaker 6>since we have far more salty water in our landscapes than fresh.

949
00:47:14.540 --> 00:47:17.300
<v Speaker 6>Such plant-based solutions are not energy intensive

950
00:47:17.300 --> 00:47:19.700
<v Speaker 6>and are the classic homostatic process.

951
00:47:20.560 --> 00:47:21.940
<v Speaker 6>But there's a way to go.

952
00:47:22.080 --> 00:47:24.660
<v Speaker 6>Plant research has been based on glycophytes,

953
00:47:24.740 --> 00:47:25.460
<v Speaker 6>freshwater plants,

954
00:47:25.740 --> 00:47:28.420
<v Speaker 6>rather than halophytes, salt-loving plants.

955
00:47:28.680 --> 00:47:29.880
<v Speaker 6>To take one example,

956
00:47:30.500 --> 00:47:33.340
<v Speaker 6>mangrove ecosystems are among the most productive on Earth.

957
00:47:33.340 --> 00:47:35.340
<v Speaker 6>We just haven't domesticated them yet,

958
00:47:35.480 --> 00:47:37.860
<v Speaker 6>except in shrimp production in Asia.

959
00:47:38.200 --> 00:47:39.280
<v Speaker 6>And what of the sea?

960
00:47:39.520 --> 00:47:42.780
<v Speaker 6>We've hardly progressed beyond hunting in sea-based food systems.

961
00:47:43.100 --> 00:47:45.200
<v Speaker 6>About half the living biomass in the world

962
00:47:45.200 --> 00:47:46.820
<v Speaker 6>is to be found in 2% of the sea.

963
00:47:47.380 --> 00:47:50.360
<v Speaker 6>South Australia may have a success story here to rival wine

964
00:47:50.360 --> 00:47:52.140
<v Speaker 6>as we learn more about this by doing it.

965
00:47:53.160 --> 00:47:54.280
<v Speaker 6>Since we have money,

966
00:47:54.480 --> 00:47:56.760
<v Speaker 6>a fine plant-based research capability,

967
00:47:57.200 --> 00:47:57.960
<v Speaker 6>a salt problem,

968
00:47:58.120 --> 00:48:00.760
<v Speaker 6>and no sustainable agricultural systems at present,

969
00:48:01.200 --> 00:48:02.840
<v Speaker 6>Australia may be the right place

970
00:48:02.840 --> 00:48:07.220
<v Speaker 6>to make breakthroughs in the area of plant-based adaptations

971
00:48:07.220 --> 00:48:08.300
<v Speaker 6>of salt balance changes.

972
00:48:09.260 --> 00:48:12.160
<v Speaker 6>There are sustainable agricultural systems in the world,

973
00:48:12.260 --> 00:48:15.240
<v Speaker 6>but they are social systems as much as agronomic ones,

974
00:48:15.520 --> 00:48:17.320
<v Speaker 6>and may have declined or disappeared

975
00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:19.200
<v Speaker 6>as we've pushed for greater output.

976
00:48:19.800 --> 00:48:22.200
<v Speaker 6>The key has been social belief systems

977
00:48:22.200 --> 00:48:25.980
<v Speaker 6>that supported sustainable cycling of resources over generations

978
00:48:25.980 --> 00:48:28.120
<v Speaker 6>and supported leaching salt.

979
00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:30.260
<v Speaker 6>Australia's carrying capacity.

980
00:48:30.720 --> 00:48:32.820
<v Speaker 6>One speaker at a recent Australian interview

981
00:48:32.840 --> 00:48:34.740
<v Speaker 6>at an Academy of Sciences and Technology conference

982
00:48:34.740 --> 00:48:36.300
<v Speaker 6>called Sustainable Australia

983
00:48:36.840 --> 00:48:38.940
<v Speaker 6>concluded there was no immediate limits to growth

984
00:48:38.940 --> 00:48:42.480
<v Speaker 6>up to a population of about 35 million by 2050.

985
00:48:42.960 --> 00:48:45.560
<v Speaker 6>This is based only on optimising existing resources

986
00:48:45.560 --> 00:48:47.200
<v Speaker 6>such as the Murray-Darling Basin

987
00:48:47.840 --> 00:48:50.060
<v Speaker 6>and others totalling about 30% of precipitation.

988
00:48:51.160 --> 00:48:53.460
<v Speaker 6>A Chinese water engineer once told me

989
00:48:53.460 --> 00:48:56.260
<v Speaker 6>that he thought Australia could support 350 million people

990
00:48:56.840 --> 00:48:58.820
<v Speaker 6>based on resources we are hardly using

991
00:48:58.820 --> 00:49:01.840
<v Speaker 6>and that we are already significant food and energy exporters.

992
00:49:02.840 --> 00:49:04.640
<v Speaker 6>He then asked me quite pointedly

993
00:49:04.640 --> 00:49:07.120
<v Speaker 6>what I thought we had done to deserve these riches.

994
00:49:07.980 --> 00:49:10.100
<v Speaker 6>We are not alone in this world,

995
00:49:10.200 --> 00:49:11.420
<v Speaker 6>and as seen in this light,

996
00:49:11.500 --> 00:49:13.360
<v Speaker 6>I think many estimates of our carrying capacity

997
00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:15.160
<v Speaker 6>may simply be impractical.

998
00:49:16.020 --> 00:49:17.680
<v Speaker 6>Another speaker at the conference,

999
00:49:17.880 --> 00:49:20.880
<v Speaker 6>already referred to, representing construction interests,

1000
00:49:20.980 --> 00:49:23.240
<v Speaker 6>discussed a great many potential water developments,

1001
00:49:23.480 --> 00:49:25.240
<v Speaker 6>including dams and massive pipelines

1002
00:49:25.240 --> 00:49:27.440
<v Speaker 6>that would enable the use of more water

1003
00:49:27.440 --> 00:49:31.720
<v Speaker 6>for hydropower to meet our Kyoto Protocol commitments,

1004
00:49:31.720 --> 00:49:33.640
<v Speaker 6>irrigation and leaching salt.

1005
00:49:33.900 --> 00:49:36.300
<v Speaker 6>This potential has an international echo

1006
00:49:36.300 --> 00:49:39.060
<v Speaker 6>in China and India and Africa, as I mentioned earlier.

1007
00:49:39.960 --> 00:49:42.100
<v Speaker 6>He proposed a water consumption levy

1008
00:49:42.100 --> 00:49:44.220
<v Speaker 6>much smaller than the 10 billion we now collect

1009
00:49:44.220 --> 00:49:45.800
<v Speaker 6>from petrol taxes to pay for this.

1010
00:49:46.880 --> 00:49:49.240
<v Speaker 6>I would now like to draw some of these themes together.

1011
00:49:50.020 --> 00:49:52.720
<v Speaker 6>We will do something about water, since the links are clear.

1012
00:49:53.180 --> 00:49:55.520
<v Speaker 6>More vision is needed to address salt than water,

1013
00:49:55.680 --> 00:49:57.900
<v Speaker 6>since the causes and impacts are often separated

1014
00:49:57.900 --> 00:49:59.380
<v Speaker 6>in time and space.

1015
00:49:59.740 --> 00:50:01.700
<v Speaker 6>This vision thing is not easy enough,

1016
00:50:01.720 --> 00:50:03.880
<v Speaker 6>and a political system that tends towards minor adjustments

1017
00:50:03.880 --> 00:50:04.900
<v Speaker 6>to the status quo,

1018
00:50:05.120 --> 00:50:08.720
<v Speaker 6>and certainly does not lend itself to looking at things

1019
00:50:08.720 --> 00:50:09.580
<v Speaker 6>in an integrated way.

1020
00:50:10.180 --> 00:50:12.440
<v Speaker 6>I would like to put my plea that we see ourselves

1021
00:50:12.440 --> 00:50:14.500
<v Speaker 6>as part of our biosphere, or Gaia,

1022
00:50:14.620 --> 00:50:16.260
<v Speaker 6>and not something outside of it,

1023
00:50:16.380 --> 00:50:19.100
<v Speaker 6>thinking either it should be subservient to our requirements

1024
00:50:19.100 --> 00:50:21.340
<v Speaker 6>or thinking of ourselves as some dark,

1025
00:50:21.400 --> 00:50:23.940
<v Speaker 6>benevolent force upsetting Mother Nature.

1026
00:50:24.220 --> 00:50:26.880
<v Speaker 6>This is a false and ultimately destructive dichotomy.

1027
00:50:27.780 --> 00:50:29.080
<v Speaker 6>Now to the black lining.

1028
00:50:29.540 --> 00:50:31.700
<v Speaker 6>Some chap called William Osler once said,

1029
00:50:31.720 --> 00:50:33.980
<v Speaker 6>that natural man has only two primal passions,

1030
00:50:34.280 --> 00:50:35.380
<v Speaker 6>to get and beget.

1031
00:50:35.680 --> 00:50:37.280
<v Speaker 6>Our beloved market system,

1032
00:50:37.360 --> 00:50:39.060
<v Speaker 6>which responds well to primal passions,

1033
00:50:39.520 --> 00:50:41.300
<v Speaker 6>has certainly produced growth in abundance.

1034
00:50:41.800 --> 00:50:44.180
<v Speaker 6>According to the UNDP World Development Report,

1035
00:50:44.640 --> 00:50:47.940
<v Speaker 6>productivity has grown 20 times over the 150 years

1036
00:50:47.940 --> 00:50:51.140
<v Speaker 6>in which the world's population is only about trebled,

1037
00:50:51.200 --> 00:50:51.740
<v Speaker 6>or a bit more.

1038
00:50:52.160 --> 00:50:53.960
<v Speaker 6>They say the trend looks like continuing,

1039
00:50:54.220 --> 00:50:56.120
<v Speaker 6>although a lot of attention is needed to distribution.

1040
00:50:56.640 --> 00:50:58.720
<v Speaker 6>Unfortunately, this is quite unsustainable,

1041
00:50:58.720 --> 00:51:00.840
<v Speaker 6>2% population growth rate.

1042
00:51:00.840 --> 00:51:03.740
<v Speaker 6>There are limits to growth, as this word is used.

1043
00:51:03.860 --> 00:51:07.520
<v Speaker 6>In the 1940s, a supporter asked India's Mahatma Gandhi,

1044
00:51:07.840 --> 00:51:10.220
<v Speaker 6>how long would it be before India was as rich as England?

1045
00:51:10.860 --> 00:51:11.900
<v Speaker 6>Gandhi's response was,

1046
00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:14.620
<v Speaker 6>if it took half the world to make England as rich as it is now,

1047
00:51:14.900 --> 00:51:17.420
<v Speaker 6>how many worlds would it take to make India that rich?

1048
00:51:18.400 --> 00:51:24.360
<v Speaker 6>I think if we're not able to get this getting and begetting

1049
00:51:24.360 --> 00:51:27.160
<v Speaker 6>that William Osler spoke about under control soon,

1050
00:51:27.300 --> 00:51:29.180
<v Speaker 6>our descendants are likely to see much more

1051
00:51:29.180 --> 00:51:30.520
<v Speaker 6>about fluctuating death rates.

1052
00:51:30.840 --> 00:51:32.760
<v Speaker 6>We need a different type of growth,

1053
00:51:32.960 --> 00:51:34.580
<v Speaker 6>a social or spiritual growth,

1054
00:51:34.760 --> 00:51:37.600
<v Speaker 6>if we are to survive as an important homeostatic part

1055
00:51:37.600 --> 00:51:38.460
<v Speaker 6>of this biosphere.

1056
00:51:38.720 --> 00:51:39.980
<v Speaker 6>We can do this.

1057
00:51:40.460 --> 00:51:43.120
<v Speaker 6>Richard Dawkins coined the term memes

1058
00:51:43.120 --> 00:51:46.560
<v Speaker 6>to denote ideas or concepts that evolve and spread rapidly.

1059
00:51:47.040 --> 00:51:49.340
<v Speaker 6>William Burroughs called these viruses of the mind,

1060
00:51:49.480 --> 00:51:52.360
<v Speaker 6>and we now co-evolve with these memes.

1061
00:51:52.680 --> 00:51:54.600
<v Speaker 6>We need to discover new viruses,

1062
00:51:54.640 --> 00:51:57.140
<v Speaker 6>or rediscover and preserve old viruses,

1063
00:51:57.200 --> 00:52:00.160
<v Speaker 6>such as those painfully discovered by Indigenous Australians,

1064
00:52:00.160 --> 00:52:03.260
<v Speaker 6>following a previous episode of Getting and Begetting,

1065
00:52:03.740 --> 00:52:06.300
<v Speaker 6>as Tim Flanagan has described and a previous speaker.

1066
00:52:06.680 --> 00:52:09.020
<v Speaker 6>I would like to finish with a so-called grok,

1067
00:52:09.620 --> 00:52:11.800
<v Speaker 6>a humorous kind of poem by Piet Hein,

1068
00:52:11.900 --> 00:52:14.720
<v Speaker 6>a Danish polymath of some fame.

1069
00:52:14.900 --> 00:52:16.500
<v Speaker 6>We do our best, or do we?

1070
00:52:16.960 --> 00:52:18.420
<v Speaker 6>Modern man has the skill.

1071
00:52:18.740 --> 00:52:20.100
<v Speaker 6>He can do what he will.

1072
00:52:20.340 --> 00:52:23.040
<v Speaker 6>But alas, being man, he'll do what he can.

1073
00:52:23.280 --> 00:52:23.920
<v Speaker 6>Thank you.

1074
00:52:32.400 --> 00:52:32.920
<v Mark Cully>APPLAUSE

1075
00:52:35.200 --> 00:52:39.220
<v Mark Cully>OK, we've had four fairly salutary reminders there

1076
00:52:39.220 --> 00:52:42.700
<v Mark Cully>that we live in an inhospitable environment,

1077
00:52:42.820 --> 00:52:47.320
<v Mark Cully>and somehow we've been foolish enough to think that we can manage it.

1078
00:52:47.640 --> 00:52:49.440
<v Mark Cully>But somehow, as John's reminded us,

1079
00:52:50.060 --> 00:52:51.840
<v Mark Cully>we've also been able to muddle through,

1080
00:52:52.620 --> 00:52:58.260
<v Mark Cully>and we've overseen the prophets of doom from Malthus onwards.

1081
00:53:00.160 --> 00:53:02.620
<v Mark Cully>We have about 20 minutes for questions.

1082
00:53:02.880 --> 00:53:06.940
<v Mark Cully>There is a microphone in this aisle here

1083
00:53:07.480 --> 00:53:10.260
<v Mark Cully>and a microphone up the top,

1084
00:53:10.400 --> 00:53:13.460
<v Mark Cully>and I'd ask that people who do want to ask questions

1085
00:53:13.460 --> 00:53:17.120
<v Mark Cully>please use the microphone rather than standing in the spot.

1086
00:53:17.320 --> 00:53:20.060
<v Mark Cully>So there's plenty of time, so please go ahead.

1087
00:53:20.140 --> 00:53:21.800
<v Mark Cully>Who wants to kick off?

1088
00:53:24.460 --> 00:53:29.600
<v Audience>I have a question, a comment, question to the last three speakers,

1089
00:53:29.600 --> 00:53:33.000
<v Audience>but perhaps particularly to Mr Chittleborough

1090
00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:38.400
<v Audience>when he refers to politicians and public wills,

1091
00:53:38.400 --> 00:53:42.100
<v Audience>and particularly as he's involved in plant-based management.

1092
00:53:44.380 --> 00:53:47.600
<v Audience>An acquaintance named Pedro Evans

1093
00:53:47.600 --> 00:53:49.880
<v Audience>in the Victorian Department of Agriculture

1094
00:53:50.600 --> 00:53:53.280
<v Audience>has been trialling Melio to salba varieties

1095
00:53:53.280 --> 00:53:57.960
<v Audience>on salt countries in Victoria,

1096
00:53:58.100 --> 00:53:58.700
<v Audience>and...

1097
00:53:58.700 --> 00:54:05.560
<v Audience>the sheep are thriving mightily on this legume,

1098
00:54:05.680 --> 00:54:10.160
<v Audience>which is also lowering the water table for salt,

1099
00:54:10.280 --> 00:54:12.060
<v Audience>and a rapid-growing legume.

1100
00:54:13.900 --> 00:54:16.600
<v Audience>After two years of very successful trials,

1101
00:54:17.160 --> 00:54:20.180
<v Audience>the department is not furnishing any money,

1102
00:54:20.300 --> 00:54:25.040
<v Audience>so where is the will of politicians in this business?

1103
00:54:29.220 --> 00:54:30.500
<v Mark Cully>You can take it standing down.

1104
00:54:30.900 --> 00:54:31.840
<v Mark Cully>Oh, OK.

1105
00:54:33.860 --> 00:54:37.020
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, well, I think there are many politicians of good will

1106
00:54:37.600 --> 00:54:39.820
<v Speaker 4>and are very concerned about the problem.

1107
00:54:39.880 --> 00:54:42.760
<v Speaker 4>I would say that I'm not going to label any particular group.

1108
00:54:44.220 --> 00:54:46.220
<v Speaker 4>My theme...one of the themes in my talk

1109
00:54:46.220 --> 00:54:49.400
<v Speaker 4>was to try and impress upon you

1110
00:54:49.400 --> 00:54:51.920
<v Speaker 4>the scale of the intervention that's needed

1111
00:54:51.920 --> 00:54:53.520
<v Speaker 4>has still not yet been realised,

1112
00:54:53.540 --> 00:54:58.240
<v Speaker 4>despite the public discussion at a fairly high pitch.

1113
00:54:59.060 --> 00:55:01.880
<v Speaker 4>As for the particular trial that you referred to,

1114
00:55:01.940 --> 00:55:04.360
<v Speaker 4>I'm not familiar with it, but I will say one thing.

1115
00:55:05.680 --> 00:55:08.620
<v Speaker 4>Unless you solve the underlying problem,

1116
00:55:08.840 --> 00:55:12.940
<v Speaker 4>that is, you do in fact see a lowering

1117
00:55:12.940 --> 00:55:14.660
<v Speaker 4>of that saline groundwater table

1118
00:55:14.660 --> 00:55:15.960
<v Speaker 4>in that environment you mentioned,

1119
00:55:17.220 --> 00:55:21.420
<v Speaker 4>inevitably that salt-tolerant plant that you mentioned

1120
00:55:21.420 --> 00:55:23.180
<v Speaker 4>will go out as well,

1121
00:55:23.300 --> 00:55:26.940
<v Speaker 4>because the salt will continue to increase

1122
00:55:26.940 --> 00:55:28.680
<v Speaker 4>and eventually increase.

1123
00:55:28.680 --> 00:55:30.140
<v Speaker 4>And then you will overcome even the adaptability

1124
00:55:30.140 --> 00:55:31.240
<v Speaker 4>of that particular plant.

1125
00:55:31.440 --> 00:55:32.860
<v Speaker 4>So there are some...

1126
00:55:34.000 --> 00:55:38.480
<v Speaker 4>You know, you've got to look at this as a holistic system,

1127
00:55:38.560 --> 00:55:40.800
<v Speaker 4>a bit like our final speaker here.

1128
00:55:41.180 --> 00:55:42.200
<v Speaker 4>It may...

1129
00:55:42.200 --> 00:55:44.820
<v Speaker 4>And it has to be adapted to each particular environment.

1130
00:55:44.980 --> 00:55:47.560
<v Speaker 4>Maybe you need some drainage to ensure...

1131
00:55:47.560 --> 00:55:49.760
<v Speaker 4>Maybe you need some other supportive vegetation

1132
00:55:49.760 --> 00:55:52.240
<v Speaker 4>around that particular area

1133
00:55:52.240 --> 00:55:55.660
<v Speaker 4>to prevent further downward movement of saline water

1134
00:55:55.660 --> 00:55:57.780
<v Speaker 4>from higher up on the slope.

1135
00:55:57.880 --> 00:55:58.660
<v Speaker 4>Other things like that.

1136
00:55:58.680 --> 00:56:00.240
<v Speaker 4>So, yes, I agree with you.

1137
00:56:00.280 --> 00:56:04.200
<v Speaker 4>It's most unfortunate that what appears to be a promising trial

1138
00:56:04.200 --> 00:56:04.960
<v Speaker 4>was stopped short.

1139
00:56:05.120 --> 00:56:06.940
<v Speaker 4>We think in two- and three-year bites

1140
00:56:06.940 --> 00:56:09.440
<v Speaker 4>and give grants to scientists in two- or three-year bites.

1141
00:56:09.620 --> 00:56:10.660
<v Speaker 5>You know about that, Warren?

1142
00:56:11.660 --> 00:56:13.060
<v Speaker 4>And unfortunately what's needed

1143
00:56:13.060 --> 00:56:15.140
<v Speaker 4>is a more longer-term investigations.

1144
00:56:15.740 --> 00:56:18.100
<v Speaker 4>And, well, at least in some way with our CRC

1145
00:56:18.100 --> 00:56:19.960
<v Speaker 4>where we have seven years of funding,

1146
00:56:20.060 --> 00:56:21.700
<v Speaker 4>we hope we can do something.

1147
00:56:22.100 --> 00:56:23.740
<v Speaker 5>I'd like to add something to that.

1148
00:56:24.300 --> 00:56:26.340
<v Speaker 6>A lot of our research, as I mentioned,

1149
00:56:26.440 --> 00:56:28.040
<v Speaker 6>has been based on freshwater plants

1150
00:56:28.040 --> 00:56:30.380
<v Speaker 6>and trying to adapt the environment

1151
00:56:30.380 --> 00:56:32.920
<v Speaker 6>to enable them to continue to produce.

1152
00:56:33.280 --> 00:56:36.580
<v Speaker 6>But there are lots of plants that are adapted to saline conditions,

1153
00:56:36.740 --> 00:56:39.460
<v Speaker 6>particularly in the littoral regions around the coast.

1154
00:56:39.760 --> 00:56:42.980
<v Speaker 6>And some of these operate by taking salt through their roots

1155
00:56:42.980 --> 00:56:46.840
<v Speaker 6>and discharging it through their leaves.

1156
00:56:47.220 --> 00:56:50.660
<v Speaker 6>And I think there is a lot of use

1157
00:56:50.660 --> 00:56:54.120
<v Speaker 6>in devoting more resources towards looking at plants

1158
00:56:54.120 --> 00:56:57.240
<v Speaker 6>which can either live with salt and produce something

1159
00:56:57.240 --> 00:57:00.140
<v Speaker 6>or can do something to help the environment

1160
00:57:00.140 --> 00:57:02.700
<v Speaker 6>in that condition where freshwater plants

1161
00:57:02.700 --> 00:57:05.020
<v Speaker 6>have shown themselves to be unsuitable

1162
00:57:05.020 --> 00:57:08.860
<v Speaker 6>and where drainage has been as impossible for different reasons.

1163
00:57:09.320 --> 00:57:12.120
<v Speaker 4>That is one of the programs in the new CRC,

1164
00:57:12.160 --> 00:57:14.260
<v Speaker 4>that very program that you mentioned.

1165
00:57:14.380 --> 00:57:15.200
<v Speaker 4>We have a question up the top.

1166
00:57:15.580 --> 00:57:19.240
<v Speaker 8>Would it be possible to allow David Chittleborough

1167
00:57:19.780 --> 00:57:22.040
<v Speaker 8>or Peter Gill, or both,

1168
00:57:22.080 --> 00:57:23.760
<v Speaker 8>to respond to some of the solutions

1169
00:57:23.760 --> 00:57:25.860
<v Speaker 8>which were put forward by John Leake?

1170
00:57:30.760 --> 00:57:34.280
<v Speaker 2>Firstly, in some of my lectures to my students,

1171
00:57:34.360 --> 00:57:36.340
<v Speaker 2>I mentioned the imbalance between water resources

1172
00:57:36.340 --> 00:57:40.540
<v Speaker 2>in Australia in the north to that in the south.

1173
00:57:40.840 --> 00:57:44.180
<v Speaker 2>We are diverting 90% of the divertable water

1174
00:57:44.180 --> 00:57:46.460
<v Speaker 2>out of the Murray-Darling Basin,

1175
00:57:46.460 --> 00:57:48.320
<v Speaker 2>and that is our major breadbasket at the moment,

1176
00:57:48.420 --> 00:57:50.780
<v Speaker 2>but we are not diverting anywhere near that

1177
00:57:50.780 --> 00:57:52.760
<v Speaker 2>of the northern regions of Australia.

1178
00:57:54.460 --> 00:57:56.060
<v Speaker 2>With respect to climate change,

1179
00:57:56.060 --> 00:57:59.140
<v Speaker 2>I have this concern about establishing a similar system

1180
00:57:59.140 --> 00:58:01.780
<v Speaker 2>that we see in the Murray-Darling in the north of Australia,

1181
00:58:01.880 --> 00:58:04.880
<v Speaker 2>because we haven't even dealt with the idea of tropical diseases

1182
00:58:04.880 --> 00:58:09.300
<v Speaker 2>and what irrigation agriculture might do to harbour those in the future,

1183
00:58:09.340 --> 00:58:10.780
<v Speaker 2>particularly under a greenhouse future.

1184
00:58:12.720 --> 00:58:17.280
<v Speaker 4>Yes, well, I don't think there's any irrigation scheme in the world

1185
00:58:17.280 --> 00:58:20.720
<v Speaker 4>that's lasted more than about 100 years of any great magnitude.

1186
00:58:20.720 --> 00:58:25.300
<v Speaker 4>It's either succumbed to water logging, salinity, or both.

1187
00:58:25.300 --> 00:58:28.660
<v Speaker 4>And perhaps Warren, who's a hydrologist,

1188
00:58:28.700 --> 00:58:31.620
<v Speaker 5>could correct me on that,

1189
00:58:31.700 --> 00:58:34.520
<v Speaker 4>but the areas that I know from a soil science point of view.

1190
00:58:34.620 --> 00:58:37.140
<v Speaker 4>So it does seem to me that we have yet,

1191
00:58:37.180 --> 00:58:38.440
<v Speaker 4>even after all these years,

1192
00:58:39.040 --> 00:58:40.840
<v Speaker 4>have yet to really fully appreciate

1193
00:58:40.840 --> 00:58:44.800
<v Speaker 4>how to live with salt in a salty environment.

1194
00:58:46.660 --> 00:58:49.940
<v Speaker 4>But there are examples, I'm sure,

1195
00:58:50.060 --> 00:58:51.860
<v Speaker 4>and we can adapt to them.

1196
00:58:53.520 --> 00:58:55.280
<v Speaker 4>We do need a greater...

1197
00:58:56.280 --> 00:58:58.720
<v Speaker 4>..genetic engineering and plant breeding

1198
00:58:58.720 --> 00:59:01.520
<v Speaker 4>to adapt to plants to these saline environments.

1199
00:59:01.820 --> 00:59:05.360
<v Speaker 4>And again, I would back up what John has said.

1200
00:59:05.460 --> 00:59:07.980
<v Speaker 4>There's a whole program in our CRC on that very thing.

1201
00:59:08.460 --> 00:59:12.260
<v Speaker 4>And I think also we have to be aware

1202
00:59:12.260 --> 00:59:14.720
<v Speaker 4>that by simply tackling one thing,

1203
00:59:14.780 --> 00:59:16.800
<v Speaker 4>we may cause problems elsewhere.

1204
00:59:17.360 --> 00:59:21.760
<v Speaker 4>Now, I tried to touch on that a little bit in my remarks during the talk.

1205
00:59:22.280 --> 00:59:25.240
<v Speaker 4>You can start to remove

1206
00:59:25.280 --> 00:59:28.160
<v Speaker 4>or at least remove the water table by engineering,

1207
00:59:29.000 --> 00:59:29.640
<v Speaker 4>massive engineering.

1208
00:59:29.820 --> 00:59:31.580
<v Speaker 4>There's a lot of talk about this at the moment.

1209
00:59:32.120 --> 00:59:35.860
<v Speaker 4>But you could easily leave behind a legacy of problems

1210
00:59:35.860 --> 00:59:40.420
<v Speaker 4>in the soil itself of damage and structural decline.

1211
00:59:40.700 --> 00:59:42.720
<v Speaker 4>And we have yet to really appreciate

1212
00:59:42.720 --> 00:59:46.280
<v Speaker 4>how we can then intervene in those restored...

1213
00:59:47.120 --> 00:59:49.220
<v Speaker 4>..well, at least new environments

1214
00:59:49.220 --> 00:59:51.160
<v Speaker 4>which have had the salt removed

1215
00:59:51.160 --> 00:59:53.920
<v Speaker 4>but have been degraded in various ways.

1216
00:59:54.020 --> 00:59:55.260
<v Speaker 4>We need new science to look at it.

1217
00:59:55.260 --> 00:59:57.780
<v Speaker 4>I'm actually quite optimistic that we can do this,

1218
00:59:57.820 --> 00:59:59.940
<v Speaker 4>but I think a holistic effort's needed.

1219
01:00:00.120 --> 01:00:03.980
<v Speaker 4>New science, plant breeding, soil physics and chemistry, hydrology,

1220
01:00:04.600 --> 01:00:06.160
<v Speaker 4>and a whole new mindset

1221
01:00:06.160 --> 01:00:09.120
<v Speaker 4>of which John sort of started to touch on in his talk.

1222
01:00:09.380 --> 01:00:11.180
<v Speaker 6>If I could just make one very quick comment.

1223
01:00:11.300 --> 01:00:12.880
<v Speaker 6>I agree with what's just been said.

1224
01:00:13.060 --> 01:00:15.140
<v Speaker 6>But there is one irrigation system

1225
01:00:15.140 --> 01:00:17.020
<v Speaker 6>which has been sustainable for millennia,

1226
01:00:17.020 --> 01:00:19.140
<v Speaker 6>and that's the wet rice paddy system.

1227
01:00:19.520 --> 01:00:23.260
<v Speaker 6>It has supported 25, 30% of our population

1228
01:00:23.260 --> 01:00:25.160
<v Speaker 6>for those sorts of periods of time.

1229
01:00:25.260 --> 01:00:27.640
<v Speaker 6>And they're the sorts of agricultural systems

1230
01:00:27.640 --> 01:00:29.320
<v Speaker 6>which the people to our near north

1231
01:00:29.320 --> 01:00:33.580
<v Speaker 6>would think of using in the lands that we presently don't use.

1232
01:00:34.700 --> 01:00:36.780
<v Speaker 6>There is still the problem you have to drain them.

1233
01:00:37.760 --> 01:00:40.080
<v Speaker 2>If I could just make one further point,

1234
01:00:40.140 --> 01:00:44.440
<v Speaker 2>and that is about the utilitarian focus of this discussion.

1235
01:00:44.660 --> 01:00:47.960
<v Speaker 2>I'd like to also consider that if we use the Murray

1236
01:00:47.960 --> 01:00:49.860
<v Speaker 2>or whatever systems as a drain,

1237
01:00:50.060 --> 01:00:54.500
<v Speaker 2>we're not taking into account the responsibility we have

1238
01:00:54.500 --> 01:00:57.220
<v Speaker 2>for the natural ecosystem and the other organisms

1239
01:00:57.220 --> 01:00:58.480
<v Speaker 2>in which we share Australia.

1240
01:00:59.140 --> 01:01:01.320
<v Speaker 2>All right, we have a gentleman waiting patiently down here.

1241
01:01:01.720 --> 01:01:03.440
<v Speaker 5>My thanks to the speakers.

1242
01:01:03.760 --> 01:01:07.700
<v Speaker 5>This is a complex subject for a non-expert.

1243
01:01:07.920 --> 01:01:10.800
<v Speaker 5>I wonder if members of the panel could suggest

1244
01:01:10.800 --> 01:01:14.160
<v Speaker 5>a reliable website with information

1245
01:01:14.160 --> 01:01:16.460
<v Speaker 5>and indicate whether their own presentations

1246
01:01:16.460 --> 01:01:20.040
<v Speaker 5>will be on their departmental websites.

1247
01:01:21.820 --> 01:01:24.480
<v Speaker 5>I've asked my IT person to put mine up on my website.

1248
01:01:24.500 --> 01:01:26.020
<v Speaker 2>But she's on leave for a couple of weeks,

1249
01:01:26.080 --> 01:01:26.760
<v Speaker 2>so you might have to wait.

1250
01:01:27.780 --> 01:01:28.740
<v Speaker 4>I had a problem.

1251
01:01:28.820 --> 01:01:31.760
<v Speaker 4>I need the tape because I didn't write mine down.

1252
01:01:34.480 --> 01:01:35.520
<v Speaker 4>I'm not sure what I said.

1253
01:01:35.660 --> 01:01:36.700
<v Speaker 4>I might regret it after.

1254
01:01:38.300 --> 01:01:40.300
<v Speaker 4>But, yes, we can do that.

1255
01:01:40.460 --> 01:01:42.820
<v Speaker 4>We actually, in our new cooperative search centre,

1256
01:01:42.900 --> 01:01:44.940
<v Speaker 4>we certainly intend to have a website

1257
01:01:44.940 --> 01:01:48.300
<v Speaker 4>which explains salinity and what we're planning to do about it.

1258
01:01:48.660 --> 01:01:49.840
<v Speaker 3>I'd like to make one comment.

1259
01:01:49.860 --> 01:01:52.160
<v Speaker 3>I just, before I came, I went on the website

1260
01:01:52.160 --> 01:01:53.700
<v Speaker 3>and I just typed in salinity.

1261
01:01:54.500 --> 01:01:55.160
<v Speaker 3>And I found out that for soil salinity,

1262
01:01:55.220 --> 01:01:57.140
<v Speaker 3>I had 37,000 hits.

1263
01:01:58.020 --> 01:02:00.320
<v Speaker 3>So I think there's a great deal of literature

1264
01:02:00.320 --> 01:02:01.920
<v Speaker 3>already on the website.

1265
01:02:02.960 --> 01:02:04.840
<v Speaker 3>Sorting through it is a bit of a task.

1266
01:02:05.200 --> 01:02:08.560
<v Speaker 3>But there's a tremendous amount of information already there

1267
01:02:08.560 --> 01:02:09.900
<v Speaker 3>and covering the whole world.

1268
01:02:10.340 --> 01:02:12.500
<v Speaker 6>I think the National Dryland Salinity Program

1269
01:02:12.500 --> 01:02:14.780
<v Speaker 6>has quite a good website which covers the work

1270
01:02:14.780 --> 01:02:15.820
<v Speaker 6>which is being done in Australia.

1271
01:02:16.200 --> 01:02:18.640
<v Speaker 6>And it's ndsp.gov.au.

1272
01:02:20.780 --> 01:02:22.900
<v Speaker 9>We have a question down here.

1273
01:02:23.720 --> 01:02:24.280
<v Speaker 9>Yeah.

1274
01:02:24.280 --> 01:02:28.520
<v Speaker 9>My question, I guess, relates to the politics involved in all this.

1275
01:02:28.760 --> 01:02:33.540
<v Speaker 9>And I read a bit of Dave Suzuki and enjoy what he writes

1276
01:02:33.540 --> 01:02:34.720
<v Speaker 9>because his main...

1277
01:02:34.720 --> 01:02:37.840
<v Speaker 9>One of his main problems, as our first speaker pointed out,

1278
01:02:37.880 --> 01:02:40.660
<v Speaker 9>was that our economics, our global economics,

1279
01:02:40.700 --> 01:02:44.980
<v Speaker 9>doesn't take our environmental resources into account

1280
01:02:44.980 --> 01:02:46.660
<v Speaker 9>to the degree it should.

1281
01:02:46.700 --> 01:02:49.260
<v Speaker 9>And that's a main source of our problems.

1282
01:02:50.560 --> 01:02:54.140
<v Speaker 9>Considering that and considering how our economy in Australia,

1283
01:02:54.280 --> 01:02:55.240
<v Speaker 9>and all economies around the world,

1284
01:02:55.280 --> 01:02:58.160
<v Speaker 9>are dictated by the financial requirements

1285
01:02:58.160 --> 01:03:00.580
<v Speaker 9>and the money is the big issue,

1286
01:03:01.280 --> 01:03:04.740
<v Speaker 9>and that as scientists, we sit here in the audience

1287
01:03:04.740 --> 01:03:06.200
<v Speaker 9>and we agree with everything he's saying

1288
01:03:06.200 --> 01:03:08.040
<v Speaker 9>and we say something should be done about this,

1289
01:03:08.140 --> 01:03:13.220
<v Speaker 9>and the fact that our government is generally full of economists

1290
01:03:13.220 --> 01:03:17.600
<v Speaker 9>and even medicos before scientists,

1291
01:03:18.200 --> 01:03:19.500
<v Speaker 9>how do you feel as a panel,

1292
01:03:19.620 --> 01:03:23.940
<v Speaker 9>is there any ideas on how, as scientists and as the community,

1293
01:03:23.940 --> 01:03:27.120
<v Speaker 9>we can influence our government policy-making?

1294
01:03:27.200 --> 01:03:29.380
<v Speaker 9>Because it seems to me that there's not enough scientists

1295
01:03:29.380 --> 01:03:31.880
<v Speaker 9>and not enough people involved in politics and in government

1296
01:03:31.880 --> 01:03:33.600
<v Speaker 9>to say, listen, this is a major problem.

1297
01:03:33.960 --> 01:03:36.040
<v Speaker 9>We have to do something now to solve the problem.

1298
01:03:37.240 --> 01:03:40.980
<v Speaker 9>And it seems that the economy and the rate of growth

1299
01:03:40.980 --> 01:03:43.620
<v Speaker 9>and the capitalistic sort of view of the world

1300
01:03:43.620 --> 01:03:45.460
<v Speaker 9>and not the environmentalistic view of the world,

1301
01:03:45.480 --> 01:03:48.620
<v Speaker 9>as John said, is our main focus.

1302
01:03:48.820 --> 01:03:50.580
<v Speaker 9>What can we do and what can...

1303
01:03:50.580 --> 01:03:52.900
<v Speaker 9>I mean, what can you do as scientists

1304
01:03:52.900 --> 01:03:56.280
<v Speaker 9>to make this a big issue as it should?

1305
01:03:56.360 --> 01:03:58.140
<v Speaker 9>And instead of having, you know, the crows on the front page,

1306
01:03:58.220 --> 01:04:00.120
<v Speaker 9>we can have, you know, salinity, for example.

1307
01:04:05.760 --> 01:04:07.500
<v Speaker 3>I'd like to address part of that

1308
01:04:07.500 --> 01:04:11.760
<v Speaker 3>simply in saying that a scientist is limited by what we can...

1309
01:04:11.760 --> 01:04:14.040
<v Speaker 3>We can answer the what-if type questions.

1310
01:04:14.440 --> 01:04:17.040
<v Speaker 3>We can... If you propose this proposal,

1311
01:04:17.220 --> 01:04:18.940
<v Speaker 3>we can address, this will happen.

1312
01:04:19.400 --> 01:04:22.400
<v Speaker 3>But as scientists, we can't make value-based judgement.

1313
01:04:22.500 --> 01:04:22.880
<v Speaker 3>We should.

1314
01:04:22.900 --> 01:04:24.800
<v Speaker 3>We can't say, you should do this.

1315
01:04:25.020 --> 01:04:26.860
<v Speaker 3>And so this limits us as scientists

1316
01:04:26.860 --> 01:04:28.820
<v Speaker 3>to what role we can have.

1317
01:04:29.000 --> 01:04:31.560
<v Speaker 3>We are, I think, very good at answering the questions.

1318
01:04:31.820 --> 01:04:34.000
<v Speaker 3>If you do this kind of a strategy,

1319
01:04:34.200 --> 01:04:35.300
<v Speaker 3>then this will respond.

1320
01:04:35.920 --> 01:04:37.040
<v Speaker 3>So we're limited.

1321
01:04:37.220 --> 01:04:40.020
<v Speaker 3>But I look at the ecology movement,

1322
01:04:40.140 --> 01:04:43.200
<v Speaker 3>and it was a grassroots kind of a movement

1323
01:04:43.200 --> 01:04:45.960
<v Speaker 3>that started with just a very simple awareness,

1324
01:04:46.200 --> 01:04:48.040
<v Speaker 3>and it became a national...

1325
01:04:48.040 --> 01:04:50.380
<v Speaker 3>At least in the United States, it became a national program

1326
01:04:50.900 --> 01:04:52.880
<v Speaker 3>that the politicians listened to.

1327
01:04:52.880 --> 01:04:55.400
<v Speaker 3>And so I would suggest that it has...

1328
01:04:56.380 --> 01:04:59.560
<v Speaker 3>Politicians tend to, quite honestly,

1329
01:04:59.800 --> 01:05:00.960
<v Speaker 3>follow rather than lead.

1330
01:05:01.200 --> 01:05:07.060
<v Speaker 3>And so I think it's going to take some sort of a local rebellion,

1331
01:05:07.200 --> 01:05:10.380
<v Speaker 3>if I use the word maybe with respect.

1332
01:05:10.720 --> 01:05:12.700
<v Speaker 3>But it's going to take a local view.

1333
01:05:12.940 --> 01:05:13.940
<v Speaker 3>That's my perception.

1334
01:05:15.800 --> 01:05:17.800
<v Speaker 2>I think if we go back 10 or 15 years,

1335
01:05:17.860 --> 01:05:22.000
<v Speaker 2>we can recall the power of the forestry debate in Australia.

1336
01:05:22.000 --> 01:05:25.800
<v Speaker 2>And then more recently, towards more recent times,

1337
01:05:25.840 --> 01:05:27.020
<v Speaker 2>because that was intractable,

1338
01:05:27.180 --> 01:05:29.860
<v Speaker 2>they've shifted on to the Brown debate, I think, as it was called.

1339
01:05:30.320 --> 01:05:32.120
<v Speaker 2>Well, I can advise that the same people

1340
01:05:32.120 --> 01:05:35.000
<v Speaker 2>who were causing politicians grief in the 1980s

1341
01:05:35.760 --> 01:05:39.620
<v Speaker 2>are now senior lobbyists with the ACF and World Wildlife Fund.

1342
01:05:40.060 --> 01:05:42.440
<v Speaker 2>And I think one of the best things we can do,

1343
01:05:42.520 --> 01:05:44.280
<v Speaker 2>perhaps the scientists will not be the lobbyists,

1344
01:05:44.340 --> 01:05:47.960
<v Speaker 2>we ought to support those people who are fed some of the science

1345
01:05:47.960 --> 01:05:49.660
<v Speaker 2>and then supported by the general community

1346
01:05:50.460 --> 01:05:51.980
<v Speaker 2>to bring considerable work to the world.

1347
01:05:52.000 --> 01:05:52.100
<v Speaker 2>And I think that's a very good example of how we can

1348
01:05:52.100 --> 01:05:52.900
<v Speaker 2>bring considerable grief to the politicians

1349
01:05:52.900 --> 01:05:54.500
<v Speaker 2>so that they do take notice.

1350
01:05:55.280 --> 01:05:58.100
<v Speaker 2>I'd suggest we support WWF and ACF

1351
01:05:58.100 --> 01:06:02.160
<v Speaker 2>and the people who now have salinity and water officers,

1352
01:06:02.400 --> 01:06:03.980
<v Speaker 2>the other Tim Fisher, for example.

1353
01:06:07.360 --> 01:06:10.460
<v Speaker 4>I'd just like to inject a positive note here.

1354
01:06:12.580 --> 01:06:17.040
<v Speaker 4>Before the late 60s, say 1970,

1355
01:06:17.700 --> 01:06:20.020
<v Speaker 4>before that, there was hardly any government in the world

1356
01:06:20.020 --> 01:06:21.400
<v Speaker 4>that had a Department of the Environment.

1357
01:06:21.880 --> 01:06:24.860
<v Speaker 4>And it was Rachel Carson's book, Silent Spring,

1358
01:06:25.100 --> 01:06:26.520
<v Speaker 4>that started a revolution

1359
01:06:26.520 --> 01:06:29.500
<v Speaker 4>and captured the public imagination,

1360
01:06:29.600 --> 01:06:34.560
<v Speaker 4>who in turn caused the politicians

1361
01:06:34.560 --> 01:06:38.400
<v Speaker 4>to see the problem that was before them.

1362
01:06:38.480 --> 01:06:41.500
<v Speaker 4>And so you had the enormous rise of environmentalism.

1363
01:06:41.920 --> 01:06:47.280
<v Speaker 4>And I think that enormous positive aspects

1364
01:06:47.280 --> 01:06:50.000
<v Speaker 4>have come out of this last 30 years

1365
01:06:50.020 --> 01:06:51.540
<v Speaker 4>of environmentalism.

1366
01:06:52.000 --> 01:06:53.640
<v Speaker 4>Some of it's been very reactive,

1367
01:06:53.800 --> 01:06:55.580
<v Speaker 4>but there's an awful lot of environmental science.

1368
01:06:55.720 --> 01:06:58.520
<v Speaker 4>And I believe firmly that the world would be

1369
01:06:58.520 --> 01:06:59.980
<v Speaker 4>a much, much worse place

1370
01:06:59.980 --> 01:07:01.980
<v Speaker 4>if it hadn't been for that book

1371
01:07:01.980 --> 01:07:05.900
<v Speaker 4>and the subsequent revolution that went along with that.

1372
01:07:06.200 --> 01:07:11.200
<v Speaker 4>And I don't want to come out on one party or other.

1373
01:07:11.260 --> 01:07:13.860
<v Speaker 4>I'm just talking to the government response.

1374
01:07:14.160 --> 01:07:16.360
<v Speaker 4>It's been, I think, not bad.

1375
01:07:16.940 --> 01:07:19.040
<v Speaker 4>The National Land and Water Audit

1376
01:07:19.040 --> 01:07:23.060
<v Speaker 4>says that we're going to have to spend

1377
01:07:23.060 --> 01:07:26.100
<v Speaker 4>about $65 billion over the next 10 years

1378
01:07:26.100 --> 01:07:27.420
<v Speaker 4>to overcome the problem,

1379
01:07:27.620 --> 01:07:29.980
<v Speaker 4>to address the problem of salinity.

1380
01:07:30.200 --> 01:07:32.740
<v Speaker 4>And we're talking about CPED salinity, unfortunately.

1381
01:07:34.020 --> 01:07:34.620
<v Speaker 4>But...

1382
01:07:35.340 --> 01:07:37.840
<v Speaker 4>And they've responded with $1.5 billion

1383
01:07:37.840 --> 01:07:39.400
<v Speaker 4>through the National Action Plan

1384
01:07:39.400 --> 01:07:41.600
<v Speaker 4>and expect the state governments to pitch in.

1385
01:07:41.800 --> 01:07:44.600
<v Speaker 4>That's a small response, but quite a significant one.

1386
01:07:44.760 --> 01:07:47.580
<v Speaker 4>And I think it's up to you, through your electorates,

1387
01:07:47.580 --> 01:07:48.920
<v Speaker 4>to raise the call.

1388
01:07:50.360 --> 01:07:51.300
<v Speaker 4>John, do you want to do anything?

1389
01:07:51.300 --> 01:07:52.280
<v Speaker 6>If I could just make a very quick comment.

1390
01:07:52.320 --> 01:07:54.640
<v Speaker 6>I endorse the remarks that have been made.

1391
01:07:55.000 --> 01:07:57.080
<v Speaker 6>I do agree with Rick Farley

1392
01:07:57.080 --> 01:07:58.940
<v Speaker 6>when he said quite a few times

1393
01:07:58.940 --> 01:08:01.620
<v Speaker 6>that our government is very centralised

1394
01:08:01.620 --> 01:08:05.320
<v Speaker 6>and that we should be discussing these things much more

1395
01:08:05.320 --> 01:08:08.360
<v Speaker 6>and applying pressure much more at regional and local level

1396
01:08:08.360 --> 01:08:10.140
<v Speaker 6>because these problems are so different

1397
01:08:10.140 --> 01:08:11.300
<v Speaker 6>in different parts of Australia.

1398
01:08:11.680 --> 01:08:14.120
<v Speaker 6>And it's very tempting, when you're sitting

1399
01:08:14.120 --> 01:08:16.180
<v Speaker 6>in a central place like Canberra,

1400
01:08:16.180 --> 01:08:17.080
<v Speaker 6>to simplify things.

1401
01:08:17.300 --> 01:08:18.960
<v Speaker 6>It makes them easier to administer.

1402
01:08:20.180 --> 01:08:22.640
<v Speaker 6>The second suggestion I'd like to make

1403
01:08:22.640 --> 01:08:27.300
<v Speaker 6>is that there is a tendency to commodify water in Australia.

1404
01:08:27.600 --> 01:08:30.740
<v Speaker 6>And this is being done in the interest of economic efficiency.

1405
01:08:31.500 --> 01:08:35.500
<v Speaker 6>And I think if we overprice water in this...

1406
01:08:35.500 --> 01:08:39.260
<v Speaker 6>If we don't think of water as a public good,

1407
01:08:39.400 --> 01:08:41.000
<v Speaker 6>it still costs something,

1408
01:08:41.160 --> 01:08:45.180
<v Speaker 6>then we are in danger of distorting

1409
01:08:45.180 --> 01:08:47.240
<v Speaker 6>the sorts of developments that happen.

1410
01:08:47.620 --> 01:08:49.320
<v Speaker 6>There may be a lot of things...

1411
01:08:49.320 --> 01:08:51.300
<v Speaker 6>For example, our Murray-Darling Basin

1412
01:08:51.300 --> 01:08:53.500
<v Speaker 6>supports 70% of our irrigation,

1413
01:08:54.140 --> 01:08:56.420
<v Speaker 6>and it would never have been constructed today,

1414
01:08:56.720 --> 01:08:58.260
<v Speaker 6>nor would the Snowy Scheme.

1415
01:08:58.780 --> 01:09:01.460
<v Speaker 6>And this came out of a different view

1416
01:09:01.460 --> 01:09:03.100
<v Speaker 6>of the value of water than we're holding today.

1417
01:09:03.640 --> 01:09:07.160
<v Speaker 6>There are great advantages in commodifying water

1418
01:09:07.160 --> 01:09:08.100
<v Speaker 6>in some circumstances,

1419
01:09:08.140 --> 01:09:10.900
<v Speaker 6>but not when we're thinking about diversity,

1420
01:09:11.180 --> 01:09:13.400
<v Speaker 6>amenity and environmental flows.

1421
01:09:13.520 --> 01:09:14.180
<v Speaker 6>Thank you.

1422
01:09:15.260 --> 01:09:16.740
<v Speaker 10>OK. Well, unfortunately...

1423
01:09:16.740 --> 01:09:19.440
<v Speaker 10>I wonder if I could pose a question to the panel.

1424
01:09:22.280 --> 01:09:23.480
<v Mark Cully>Up here? Up the top?

1425
01:09:23.760 --> 01:09:25.540
<v Mark Cully>OK. Sorry, it's hard to see with the lights.

1426
01:09:25.640 --> 01:09:27.180
<v Speaker 10>Go on. Very short one, please.

1427
01:09:27.440 --> 01:09:30.360
<v Speaker 10>OK. Virtually everything that's been said...

1428
01:09:30.360 --> 01:09:32.300
<v Speaker 10>And I must admit I did not come in at the beginning,

1429
01:09:32.440 --> 01:09:36.660
<v Speaker 10>but the whole tenor of the debate, in past times as well,

1430
01:09:36.700 --> 01:09:40.040
<v Speaker 10>appears to have been unconsciously accepting

1431
01:09:40.700 --> 01:09:43.120
<v Speaker 10>the basic premise which is the cause

1432
01:09:43.120 --> 01:09:44.880
<v Speaker 10>of all of these problems,

1433
01:09:45.180 --> 01:09:48.620
<v Speaker 10>and that is that the philosophical concept

1434
01:09:48.620 --> 01:09:52.320
<v Speaker 10>of a growth economy is increasingly,

1435
01:09:52.400 --> 01:09:54.000
<v Speaker 10>in the last 200 years,

1436
01:09:54.260 --> 01:09:57.100
<v Speaker 10>become established almost as a quasi-religious foundation

1437
01:09:57.100 --> 01:10:00.760
<v Speaker 10>for all mainstream political thought.

1438
01:10:01.400 --> 01:10:04.940
<v Speaker 10>Basic infrastructure of societies prior to that time

1439
01:10:04.940 --> 01:10:08.580
<v Speaker 10>operated often for thousands of years without that

1440
01:10:08.580 --> 01:10:13.640
<v Speaker 10>as a basic premise for their successful and stable societies.

1441
01:10:17.060 --> 01:10:19.560
<v Speaker 10>Growth is what's killing these resources.

1442
01:10:19.920 --> 01:10:22.940
<v Speaker 10>Our insistence that we always have next year

1443
01:10:22.940 --> 01:10:26.960
<v Speaker 10>more people and more resources to put upon them

1444
01:10:26.960 --> 01:10:30.140
<v Speaker 10>is just sucking up the resources here.

1445
01:10:30.320 --> 01:10:33.340
<v Speaker 10>And it's irrespective of how efficient you become

1446
01:10:33.340 --> 01:10:35.940
<v Speaker 10>that eventually you're going to find,

1447
01:10:36.100 --> 01:10:38.820
<v Speaker 10>as is increasingly found in many resources,

1448
01:10:39.120 --> 01:10:41.540
<v Speaker 10>you just suck them dry.

1449
01:10:42.000 --> 01:10:44.760
<v Mark Cully>OK. We have a classic limit of growth question.

1450
01:10:44.920 --> 01:10:45.160
<v Mark Cully>APPLAUSE

1451
01:10:46.700 --> 01:10:48.940
<v Mark Cully>John, I'll let you take that and then we'll wrap it up.

1452
01:10:49.380 --> 01:10:50.220
<v Speaker 6>Thank you.

1453
01:10:50.240 --> 01:10:53.720
<v Speaker 6>I completely agree with what the last speaker has said.

1454
01:10:55.080 --> 01:10:58.400
<v Speaker 6>However, I can also see that we need to find more food

1455
01:10:58.400 --> 01:11:01.880
<v Speaker 6>in the next 50 years than we've found in the last 10,000 years,

1456
01:11:02.020 --> 01:11:04.820
<v Speaker 6>otherwise we accept a massive increase in the death rate.

1457
01:11:05.380 --> 01:11:07.380
<v Speaker 6>I don't see us able to do that,

1458
01:11:07.820 --> 01:11:10.820
<v Speaker 6>but I do see that the present population trends

1459
01:11:10.820 --> 01:11:12.880
<v Speaker 6>are more likely to stabilise.

1460
01:11:12.980 --> 01:11:14.580
<v Speaker 6>They've done it in past times in history,

1461
01:11:14.580 --> 01:11:16.800
<v Speaker 6>and we should hope that they do it this time.

1462
01:11:16.960 --> 01:11:18.620
<v Speaker 6>And we should make use of the time

1463
01:11:18.620 --> 01:11:20.340
<v Speaker 6>in which we have to feed these people

1464
01:11:20.340 --> 01:11:23.420
<v Speaker 6>to develop new ideas, as I said in my talk,

1465
01:11:23.480 --> 01:11:26.720
<v Speaker 6>new mind viruses which we can co-evolve with,

1466
01:11:26.860 --> 01:11:28.600
<v Speaker 6>which enables us to think of a world

1467
01:11:28.600 --> 01:11:31.360
<v Speaker 6>without the sorts of growth that we've needed in the past,

1468
01:11:31.500 --> 01:11:32.660
<v Speaker 6>that we've looked for in the past.

1469
01:11:32.840 --> 01:11:34.800
<v Speaker 6>And we can do this because we're no longer

1470
01:11:34.800 --> 01:11:37.560
<v Speaker 6>the people we were a few hundred years ago.

1471
01:11:38.900 --> 01:11:39.780
<v Mark Cully>OK. Thank you.

1472
01:11:41.260 --> 01:11:43.540
<v Mark Cully>Well, I was reminded during that session

1473
01:11:43.540 --> 01:11:44.380
<v Mark Cully>when there was a...

1474
01:11:44.580 --> 01:11:46.080
<v Mark Cully>a good deal of talk about the imbalance

1475
01:11:46.080 --> 01:11:47.900
<v Mark Cully>between the distribution of our population

1476
01:11:47.900 --> 01:11:49.540
<v Mark Cully>and the distribution of our rainfall

1477
01:11:50.060 --> 01:11:55.540
<v Mark Cully>of, I think it was an idea of Don Dunstan's in the 1970s

1478
01:11:55.540 --> 01:11:57.100
<v Mark Cully>that to solve Adelaide's water problem

1479
01:11:57.100 --> 01:12:00.780
<v Mark Cully>we should go and bring icebergs from the Antarctic.

1480
01:12:01.120 --> 01:12:05.080
<v Mark Cully>And I think David's possibly come up with a more radical solution,

1481
01:12:05.260 --> 01:12:06.740
<v Mark Cully>which is that we should all move to Darwin.

1482
01:12:08.300 --> 01:12:10.340
<v Mark Cully>So perhaps in two years' time

1483
01:12:10.340 --> 01:12:13.580
<v Mark Cully>we'll reconvene this session at the Darwin Festival of Ideas.

1484
01:12:13.580 --> 01:12:14.280
<v Mark Cully>Thank you.

