WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.680 Andrew Dutney, I'm Associate Professor in Theology at Flinders University and the Principal of Park 2 00:00:05.680 --> 00:00:09.260 and Wesley College, the Uniting Churches Theological College here in South Australia. 3 00:00:09.740 --> 00:00:16.900 It's a real delight and honour for me to be able to introduce our speaker, John Polkinghorne. 4 00:00:18.520 --> 00:00:25.640 I've appreciated and admired John's work for many, many years now. Those who are outside of 5 00:00:25.640 --> 00:00:31.300 the theological field would be less well aware of his contribution, but for a very long time there 6 00:00:31.300 --> 00:00:38.520 was only a handful of scholars working really effectively in the dialogue between theology and 7 00:00:38.520 --> 00:00:45.360 science and John Polkinghorne is one of those. For a while you could reduce it to two or three 8 00:00:45.360 --> 00:00:54.100 individuals and his contribution throughout that period has been immense. In 2002 his contribution 9 00:00:54.100 --> 00:00:55.620 was recognised as he received the Nobel Prize in Philosophy for his work on the theology of science. 10 00:00:55.640 --> 00:01:01.080 He received the Templeton Prize for Progress in Religion for people here this afternoon. 11 00:01:01.420 --> 00:01:07.160 Other people that you might know who've received that award are Charles Birch and Paul Davies of 12 00:01:07.160 --> 00:01:13.260 course. So John has been making that kind of contribution to the worldwide dialogue between 13 00:01:13.260 --> 00:01:22.640 religion and the sciences. John's field began in physics, theoretical physics, and he moved 14 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:25.020 later to theology but has maintained 15 00:01:25.020 --> 00:01:32.200 outstanding credentials in both areas as he's pursued his career. In the spirit of the Festival 16 00:01:32.200 --> 00:01:38.820 of Ideas, his contribution today is moving slightly beyond the subjects that we're used to reading him 17 00:01:38.820 --> 00:01:48.000 on. So this is my first opportunity to hear him speak on an area of bioethics, but as he's 18 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:52.960 explained to me it's built on quite a long practical involvement in Britain on various 19 00:01:52.960 --> 00:01:55.000 government and church committees dealing with the 20 00:01:55.020 --> 00:02:06.060 matters of bioethics and embryology in particular. So without wasting any more time I'm very pleased 21 00:02:06.060 --> 00:02:10.240 to be able to introduce our speaker, John Polkinghorne on the soul and the embryo. 22 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:21.500 Well thank you very much. I'm glad to have the opportunity of talking for a little while 23 00:02:21.500 --> 00:02:22.880 and then perhaps we can have a conversation. 24 00:02:25.020 --> 00:02:30.660 Science gives us knowledge and I was arguing last night and continue to argue today that 25 00:02:30.660 --> 00:02:36.080 knowledge is always worth having. After all the alternative is ignorance and it can't 26 00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:42.460 be better to be ignorant than to be knowledgeable. But technology comes along and turns science's 27 00:02:42.460 --> 00:02:51.040 knowledge into power, the ability to do things. And so rapid have been advances in many fields 28 00:02:51.040 --> 00:02:55.000 of science, particularly perhaps in human genetics in the last 50 years. And so I'm 29 00:02:55.620 --> 00:03:03.320 very pleased to be presenting tonight another of the top players in the world of the universe. 30 00:03:04.160 --> 00:03:05.900 I'm very pleased to be presenting tonight another of the top players in the world of the universe. 31 00:03:06.440 --> 00:03:11.980 I'm very pleased to be presenting tonight another of the top players in the world of the universe. 32 00:03:11.980 --> 00:03:12.300 I'm very pleased to be presenting tonight another of the top players in the world of the universe. 33 00:03:12.300 --> 00:03:13.100 I'm very pleased to be presenting tonight another of the top players in the world of the universe. 34 00:03:13.100 --> 00:03:14.680 I'm very pleased to be presenting tonight another of the top players in the world of the universe. 35 00:03:14.680 --> 00:03:16.040 I'm very pleased to be presenting tonight another of the top players in the world of the universe. 36 00:03:17.020 --> 00:03:18.720 I'm very pleased to be presenting tonight another of the top players in the world of the universe. 37 00:03:19.300 --> 00:03:23.600 I'm very pleased to be presenting tonight another of the top players in the world of the universe. 38 00:03:23.820 --> 00:03:24.980 I'm very pleased to be presenting tonight another of the top players in the world of the universe. 39 00:03:24.980 --> 00:03:28.380 serious question in medical ethics 40 00:03:28.380 --> 00:03:32.800 of the basic principle that human beings are to be treated 41 00:03:32.800 --> 00:03:35.920 always as ends and not means. 42 00:03:36.940 --> 00:03:40.980 Immanuel Kant's famous formulation, that interventions on a 43 00:03:40.980 --> 00:03:44.860 human person are to be for that person's benefit, or 44 00:03:44.860 --> 00:03:48.760 at the very least, with that person's full informed consent. I mean, 45 00:03:48.780 --> 00:03:52.860 a person might donate a kidney to somebody else, but they have to do that 46 00:03:52.860 --> 00:03:56.780 in a fully informed way. And I don't think there's much 47 00:03:56.780 --> 00:04:00.200 question about that. But the question comes when we ask the question, 48 00:04:00.360 --> 00:04:05.180 what is a human person? If we take a very early embryo, 49 00:04:07.420 --> 00:04:08.620 undoubtedly, that 50 00:04:08.620 --> 00:04:12.400 embryo represents human life. But has it yet 51 00:04:12.400 --> 00:04:16.400 developed into full human personhood? And that's the fundamental 52 00:04:16.400 --> 00:04:20.540 ethical question that hangs over the question of embryo 53 00:04:20.540 --> 00:04:22.780 research, embryonic stem cell. 54 00:04:22.860 --> 00:04:25.640 Use and matters of that character. When 55 00:04:26.360 --> 00:04:30.740 is a developing human life? When does 56 00:04:30.740 --> 00:04:34.020 it attain to personhood? And with the full 57 00:04:34.020 --> 00:04:38.280 and absolute moral status that goes with that? 58 00:04:39.980 --> 00:04:42.700 If you believe that the embryo from the 59 00:04:42.700 --> 00:04:46.600 moment of its formation, the moment of conception, is a full human person, 60 00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:50.580 it would be as inconceivable to take that 61 00:04:50.580 --> 00:04:52.840 developing embryo, split it apart and extract it. 62 00:04:52.860 --> 00:05:02.140 And it would be as inconceivable to take that developing embryo, split it apart and extract the stem cells from it, as it would be to take the living heart out of a human person to transplant it into somebody else. 63 00:05:02.420 --> 00:05:08.840 But the question is, is the early embryo already a human person in that ethical sense? 64 00:05:09.960 --> 00:05:13.780 Particularly, perhaps, we might ask the question, before 14 days of development. 65 00:05:14.060 --> 00:05:22.840 Before 14 days, the embryo has no structure within it, other than the DNA contained within each of its undifferentiated cells. 66 00:05:23.760 --> 00:05:32.160 It's only at 14 days that the primitive streak begins to develop, which will eventually turn into the central nervous system. 67 00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:40.700 Before 14 days, an implanted embryo may divide and produce identical twins. 68 00:05:41.220 --> 00:05:49.740 So until you're past the 14 days stage, it's not clear whether the embryo is potentially one person or two persons. 69 00:05:50.960 --> 00:05:52.820 A very, very long time after the 14 days stage, the embryo will be a human being. 70 00:05:52.840 --> 00:05:57.000 And a large number of embryos formed naturally fail to implant. 71 00:05:57.560 --> 00:06:05.200 Some people think it may be as much as 75% of embryos conceived naturally fail to implant. 72 00:06:05.760 --> 00:06:10.900 If all those unimplanted embryos, which are of course lost, are human persons, 73 00:06:11.280 --> 00:06:16.700 then there are many more human persons who have never lived an external human life, 74 00:06:16.900 --> 00:06:20.200 than there are persons who have lived that kind of life. 75 00:06:20.440 --> 00:06:22.140 So there you see, there are issues here. 76 00:06:22.840 --> 00:06:25.100 It's quite complexing to know what to do about. 77 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:28.540 If you take the view that the embryo is a person from conception, 78 00:06:28.700 --> 00:06:32.100 which of course, for example, is the official view of the Roman Catholic Church, 79 00:06:32.260 --> 00:06:38.000 then embryonic research will be an inconceivable ethical possibility. 80 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:43.680 If you take a developmental view of the embryo, then it becomes a possibility, I think, 81 00:06:43.760 --> 00:06:51.840 that one might, for a very limited period, use a developing embryo for instrumental purposes, 82 00:06:51.840 --> 00:06:57.380 provided those purposes were really serious purposes, not matters of mere curiosity, 83 00:06:57.660 --> 00:07:03.700 and whether they were also purposes unlikely to be attainable by a non-embryonic route. 84 00:07:04.180 --> 00:07:09.220 And that's the view that's taken in the legislation in my own country, the United Kingdom, 85 00:07:09.420 --> 00:07:12.320 under the Human Fertilization and Embryology Act. 86 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:20.520 It is possible to do research on embryos in vitro of an age before 14 days, 87 00:07:20.680 --> 00:07:21.740 on a license, 88 00:07:21.840 --> 00:07:24.240 case by case basis. 89 00:07:24.400 --> 00:07:25.280 It isn't a question of saying, 90 00:07:25.420 --> 00:07:27.100 okay, you can do what you like, 91 00:07:27.280 --> 00:07:31.040 you have to make a particular case and it has to be agreed by a statutory authority. 92 00:07:31.760 --> 00:07:33.520 And it is a criminal offense, of course, 93 00:07:33.620 --> 00:07:38.820 to conduct any research on embryos that has not been licensed in that sort of way. 94 00:07:39.900 --> 00:07:41.260 So the question is, which is right? 95 00:07:41.440 --> 00:07:47.500 I mean, is the human from the start the right view to take? 96 00:07:47.660 --> 00:07:50.960 Or is it the developmental view enshrined, for example, 97 00:07:50.980 --> 00:07:51.820 in UK legislation? 98 00:07:51.840 --> 00:07:54.060 Which is the right view to take? 99 00:07:54.240 --> 00:07:55.420 How are we to settle that? 100 00:07:57.420 --> 00:08:00.960 Many of us, I expect, have sort of intuitive feelings about that. 101 00:08:01.140 --> 00:08:07.340 But can we back up our intuitive feelings by some sort of more articulated argument? 102 00:08:08.600 --> 00:08:10.140 Well, when you begin to think about it, 103 00:08:10.200 --> 00:08:12.780 it's turning on this question of what makes a person. 104 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:15.840 And that's a very deep question. 105 00:08:16.460 --> 00:08:19.920 It's not a question that's going to be settled by medical science alone, 106 00:08:20.100 --> 00:08:21.820 or by neuroscience or things like that. 107 00:08:21.820 --> 00:08:21.940 It's not a question that's going to be settled by medical science alone, 108 00:08:21.940 --> 00:08:22.060 or by neuroscience or things like that. 109 00:08:23.080 --> 00:08:27.980 It's a deep philosophical, metaphysical question about the nature of personhood. 110 00:08:28.380 --> 00:08:34.280 And you all know that there are two essentially fundamentally distinct metaphysical approaches 111 00:08:34.820 --> 00:08:38.020 to the character of a person. 112 00:08:38.640 --> 00:08:41.340 One is the dualist view, the Platonic view, 113 00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:43.740 or the Cartesian view, 114 00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:49.360 which sees human persons as being composed of two distinct substances. 115 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:52.880 A spiritual substance, a spiritual soul, 116 00:08:53.540 --> 00:08:57.980 which is housed within a material body, 117 00:08:58.180 --> 00:09:03.980 but which is in principle disentanglable from that housing. 118 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:07.720 If that's the case, 119 00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:15.260 and if the human soul is something independent of the physical development of the human body, 120 00:09:15.500 --> 00:09:18.700 then presumably that human soul, if you take a religious point of view, 121 00:09:18.700 --> 00:09:22.580 that human soul is an endowment given by God, 122 00:09:22.760 --> 00:09:25.940 and it's the most natural time, I guess, 123 00:09:26.100 --> 00:09:29.620 to suppose that endowment to take place, 124 00:09:29.720 --> 00:09:32.740 would indeed be at the moment of conception. 125 00:09:34.160 --> 00:09:36.400 So I think if you take a dualist view, 126 00:09:36.500 --> 00:09:38.680 if you take a Platonic view of human nature, 127 00:09:38.780 --> 00:09:42.100 you are going to incline to a rigorous view 128 00:09:42.700 --> 00:09:46.480 about the possibility, or rather the ethical impossibility, 129 00:09:46.500 --> 00:09:48.680 of doing everything. 130 00:09:48.700 --> 00:09:49.340 And that's the reason why I think that we should be doing this embryonic research. 131 00:09:50.800 --> 00:09:53.200 On the other hand, I think we have very good reasons 132 00:09:53.200 --> 00:09:55.560 for believing that human beings are not 133 00:09:55.560 --> 00:09:59.740 a dualist combination of a spiritual soul and a material body, 134 00:09:59.860 --> 00:10:02.020 but that we are a sort of package deal. 135 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:04.680 We are psychosomatic unities. 136 00:10:06.060 --> 00:10:10.240 That we, of course, have spiritual aspects to our nature, 137 00:10:10.420 --> 00:10:12.360 we have material aspects to our nature, 138 00:10:12.460 --> 00:10:13.520 we are embodied beings, 139 00:10:13.700 --> 00:10:17.220 we are also beings with mental and spiritual capacities, 140 00:10:18.700 --> 00:10:20.200 we are not separable from each other, 141 00:10:20.280 --> 00:10:21.500 they're not due to separate substances, 142 00:10:21.900 --> 00:10:25.800 they are inextricably intertwined with each other. 143 00:10:25.880 --> 00:10:27.940 We are a single package deal. 144 00:10:29.800 --> 00:10:31.420 In a famous phrase, 145 00:10:31.620 --> 00:10:35.000 human beings, on this point of view that I'm now speaking about, 146 00:10:35.180 --> 00:10:38.940 are animated beings rather than incarnated souls. 147 00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:41.960 And if you take that point of view, 148 00:10:42.040 --> 00:10:45.400 then you will tend to take a developmental view 149 00:10:45.400 --> 00:10:47.020 about human personhood, 150 00:10:47.020 --> 00:10:50.040 and you will tend to believe that 151 00:10:50.040 --> 00:10:52.220 there is at least the ethical possibility 152 00:10:53.020 --> 00:10:55.540 in limited and particular circumstances 153 00:10:55.540 --> 00:10:59.840 of embryonic research, including embryonic stem cell research. 154 00:11:01.780 --> 00:11:03.360 And that's the view I take, 155 00:11:03.400 --> 00:11:05.440 and that's the reason I'm, myself, personally happy 156 00:11:06.020 --> 00:11:07.700 with the UK legislation. 157 00:11:09.040 --> 00:11:12.740 Now, if you take that psychosomatic view 158 00:11:12.740 --> 00:11:13.940 of human nature, 159 00:11:14.700 --> 00:11:15.380 which 160 00:11:15.380 --> 00:11:18.540 have you somehow lost the idea of the soul? 161 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:21.000 I mean, have you purchased, if you like, 162 00:11:21.080 --> 00:11:22.020 an ethical possibility 163 00:11:22.600 --> 00:11:24.660 at the expense of a theological disaster, 164 00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:27.920 of losing the notion of the soul? 165 00:11:28.620 --> 00:11:29.740 Well, I don't think you have, 166 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:32.300 but I think you certainly have to reconceptualize the soul. 167 00:11:32.580 --> 00:11:34.020 If we're not apprentice angels, 168 00:11:34.180 --> 00:11:36.740 our soul is not a detachable spiritual component. 169 00:11:36.940 --> 00:11:38.040 What is the soul then? 170 00:11:38.260 --> 00:11:41.240 Well, the soul is, in some sense, the real me. 171 00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:45.020 And what the real me is, 172 00:11:45.020 --> 00:11:48.960 is almost as problematic within human life 173 00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:51.000 as it might be beyond human death. 174 00:11:52.020 --> 00:11:55.300 I mean, here am I standing before you this afternoon, 175 00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:57.440 an aging academic, 176 00:11:58.280 --> 00:12:00.240 what makes me the same person 177 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:02.840 as the schoolboy with a shock of black hair 178 00:12:02.840 --> 00:12:05.880 in the school photograph of 60 years ago? 179 00:12:06.620 --> 00:12:08.180 It's tempting, of course, to say 180 00:12:08.180 --> 00:12:10.960 material continuity is what makes me the same, 181 00:12:11.060 --> 00:12:11.900 but that's an illusion, 182 00:12:13.060 --> 00:12:14.900 because the atoms in our bodies, 183 00:12:14.900 --> 00:12:16.820 our bodies are changing all the time 184 00:12:16.820 --> 00:12:20.440 through wear and tear, eating and drinking. 185 00:12:22.460 --> 00:12:24.880 I am essentially atomically distinct 186 00:12:25.400 --> 00:12:28.120 from that schoolboy of 60 years ago. 187 00:12:28.700 --> 00:12:31.540 So it isn't a material continuity 188 00:12:32.140 --> 00:12:33.480 that makes us the same. 189 00:12:34.440 --> 00:12:35.320 So what is it? 190 00:12:35.800 --> 00:12:37.600 Well, here I have to wave my hands a bit, 191 00:12:37.640 --> 00:12:39.800 because I don't know how to define this 192 00:12:39.800 --> 00:12:40.760 in a very clear way, 193 00:12:40.820 --> 00:12:43.040 but I know the direction in which I want to wave my hands. 194 00:12:43.160 --> 00:12:43.920 It seems to me 195 00:12:43.920 --> 00:12:45.960 that the real me is not the atoms 196 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:47.580 making up my body at any one time, 197 00:12:47.720 --> 00:12:50.340 but the almost infinitely complex 198 00:12:51.440 --> 00:12:53.040 information-bearing pattern 199 00:12:53.040 --> 00:12:56.400 in which those atoms at any particular moment 200 00:12:56.400 --> 00:12:57.220 are organized. 201 00:12:57.700 --> 00:12:59.400 In other words, it's the pattern 202 00:12:59.920 --> 00:13:01.040 rather than the matter, 203 00:13:01.100 --> 00:13:02.520 which is the real me. 204 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:05.900 And that's actually quite an old idea. 205 00:13:06.660 --> 00:13:08.220 It's as old as Aristotle. 206 00:13:09.040 --> 00:13:10.720 Aristotle thought that the soul 207 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:12.460 was the form of the body. 208 00:13:13.920 --> 00:13:16.580 And of course, in the later Middle Ages, 209 00:13:16.600 --> 00:13:17.320 Thomas Aquinas, 210 00:13:17.900 --> 00:13:19.260 who was very much influenced 211 00:13:19.260 --> 00:13:23.020 by the recovered discovery of Aristotle's insights, 212 00:13:23.160 --> 00:13:24.240 also took the view 213 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:26.240 that the soul is the form of the body. 214 00:13:26.380 --> 00:13:28.440 And incidentally, following Aristotle, 215 00:13:28.620 --> 00:13:30.600 Aquinas believed that ensoulment 216 00:13:31.520 --> 00:13:34.700 took place in a human fetus 217 00:13:34.700 --> 00:13:37.800 between 40 days and 80 days. 218 00:13:37.880 --> 00:13:39.680 I'm sorry to say 40 days for males 219 00:13:39.680 --> 00:13:41.160 and 80 days for females. 220 00:13:41.300 --> 00:13:43.700 He didn't get everything right. 221 00:13:43.920 --> 00:13:45.440 In that respect, 222 00:13:45.640 --> 00:13:47.060 he got there from Aristotle. 223 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:51.100 So that's what I think the human soul is. 224 00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:54.880 It's carried, it's the pattern, 225 00:13:55.000 --> 00:13:56.520 the almost infinitely complex 226 00:13:56.520 --> 00:13:57.820 information-bearing pattern 227 00:13:57.820 --> 00:14:03.280 carried by the matter of my body, 228 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:05.260 but not constituted by that matter. 229 00:14:05.860 --> 00:14:07.380 Incidentally, the idea that we are 230 00:14:07.380 --> 00:14:09.460 psychosomatic unities would, of course, 231 00:14:09.460 --> 00:14:11.460 have been no shock to the writers of the Bible, 232 00:14:11.620 --> 00:14:13.540 because that was the Hebrew way. 233 00:14:13.920 --> 00:14:16.600 The Hebrew way of thinking about human nature. 234 00:14:17.160 --> 00:14:18.480 And if you take that view, 235 00:14:18.580 --> 00:14:20.120 then obviously that pattern that is me 236 00:14:20.920 --> 00:14:23.100 clearly is something that grows and develops. 237 00:14:23.380 --> 00:14:25.200 As my character forms, 238 00:14:25.920 --> 00:14:28.320 as my memories accumulate and so on, 239 00:14:28.380 --> 00:14:30.940 I grow into personhood. 240 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:34.080 That phrase that John Keats used 241 00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:35.680 when he wrote to Fanny Broad 242 00:14:35.680 --> 00:14:40.280 about life in this world being a veil of soul-making 243 00:14:41.920 --> 00:14:43.660 makes sense from the point of view 244 00:14:43.920 --> 00:14:46.160 that I'm trying to speak about. 245 00:14:49.040 --> 00:14:49.980 Well, thank you. 246 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:53.060 Well, thank you very much for that, 247 00:14:53.100 --> 00:14:55.740 but its relevance is not nearly clear to me. 248 00:14:58.320 --> 00:14:59.900 Now, if that's the... 249 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:04.100 Not only is that seems to be the right way of thinking, 250 00:15:04.160 --> 00:15:06.600 it's also consistent with what I think 251 00:15:06.600 --> 00:15:07.980 is a very interesting development 252 00:15:08.580 --> 00:15:10.700 which is taking place in science itself. 253 00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:13.180 In science, we're just beginning. 254 00:15:13.920 --> 00:15:15.060 In quite a small way, 255 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:17.860 we're just beginning to be able to study 256 00:15:17.860 --> 00:15:20.120 the behavior of complex systems 257 00:15:20.660 --> 00:15:21.900 in their totalities. 258 00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:24.040 I mean, the great technique of science 259 00:15:24.040 --> 00:15:25.420 has always been divide and rule, 260 00:15:25.560 --> 00:15:26.340 take things apart, 261 00:15:26.880 --> 00:15:29.300 find the bits and pieces about which they're made. 262 00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:31.020 I worked actually in elementary particle physics, 263 00:15:31.100 --> 00:15:33.700 which is very reductionist form of physics indeed. 264 00:15:33.880 --> 00:15:35.720 And we've learned a lot of things that way. 265 00:15:37.300 --> 00:15:39.200 But it's clear that there are lots of things 266 00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:40.340 that you can't learn that way. 267 00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:42.740 And as we've just begun to study the behavior 268 00:15:42.740 --> 00:15:44.080 of complex systems, 269 00:15:44.360 --> 00:15:49.740 we've come to see that in their totalities, 270 00:15:49.740 --> 00:15:51.140 in their holistic nature, 271 00:15:51.460 --> 00:15:55.220 they possess properties that no one could possibly have guessed 272 00:15:55.740 --> 00:15:57.720 simply from thinking about the properties 273 00:15:57.720 --> 00:15:58.620 of the bits and pieces. 274 00:15:58.760 --> 00:16:00.500 The systems that we can study at the moment 275 00:16:00.500 --> 00:16:03.560 in this sort of way are very mildly complicated. 276 00:16:03.800 --> 00:16:05.060 They're nothing like as complicated 277 00:16:05.060 --> 00:16:06.640 as a single living cell, 278 00:16:06.940 --> 00:16:08.560 let alone a human being. 279 00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:12.660 They're mostly studied in the natural history way, 280 00:16:12.660 --> 00:16:14.660 of making computerized models 281 00:16:14.660 --> 00:16:16.280 and studying the behavior of those models. 282 00:16:16.380 --> 00:16:17.480 When people do that, 283 00:16:17.560 --> 00:16:21.340 they find very remarkable powers are possessed 284 00:16:21.340 --> 00:16:23.980 by these complex systems in their totalities. 285 00:16:24.280 --> 00:16:27.700 Powers of self-organizing creation, 286 00:16:28.660 --> 00:16:32.280 spontaneous creation of patterns of ordered behavior. 287 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:36.680 Let me just give you a little flavor of that 288 00:16:36.680 --> 00:16:38.040 by describing one example. 289 00:16:38.040 --> 00:16:40.780 It's been studied by a chap called Stuart Kaufman. 290 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:42.280 And if you're interested, 291 00:16:42.280 --> 00:16:43.880 in following this up, 292 00:16:43.920 --> 00:16:45.680 you could read a book of Kaufman's 293 00:16:45.680 --> 00:16:46.780 called At Home in the Universe. 294 00:16:47.160 --> 00:16:49.040 One of his chapters discusses this model. 295 00:16:49.680 --> 00:16:51.160 It's a simple model. 296 00:16:51.220 --> 00:16:52.460 It's simply a logical model. 297 00:16:52.560 --> 00:16:54.740 It's a Boolean net of connectivity too, 298 00:16:54.880 --> 00:16:55.900 but that's not the sort of language 299 00:16:55.900 --> 00:16:57.980 we especially want to speak this afternoon. 300 00:16:58.280 --> 00:16:59.720 So I'll describe the model, 301 00:16:59.780 --> 00:17:01.000 not in logical terms, 302 00:17:01.160 --> 00:17:03.600 but in what would be the equivalent hardware terms. 303 00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:08.100 Consider a large array of electric light bulbs. 304 00:17:08.920 --> 00:17:10.280 Now each of those light bulbs 305 00:17:10.280 --> 00:17:11.580 can be in one of two states, 306 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:12.260 either or not. 307 00:17:12.280 --> 00:17:13.000 On or off. 308 00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:15.840 And the system is going to develop in steps. 309 00:17:18.280 --> 00:17:21.000 And how you get the next step from the present step 310 00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:24.420 is set out by a well-defined 311 00:17:24.420 --> 00:17:25.860 and very simple set of rules. 312 00:17:25.980 --> 00:17:27.620 Each bulb in the array 313 00:17:28.280 --> 00:17:30.580 is correlated with two other bulbs 314 00:17:30.580 --> 00:17:31.920 somewhere else in the array. 315 00:17:32.580 --> 00:17:34.700 And what those two bulbs are doing now, 316 00:17:34.780 --> 00:17:35.900 whether they're on or off, 317 00:17:36.040 --> 00:17:39.540 will determine what the bulb that is there correlates 318 00:17:39.540 --> 00:17:41.660 will do at the next step of the procedures. 319 00:17:41.660 --> 00:17:44.140 We don't, I think, need to go into more detail than that. 320 00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:46.620 There's a very simple rule 321 00:17:46.620 --> 00:17:51.140 which describes the evolution of the system. 322 00:17:51.840 --> 00:17:53.060 And you start it all off 323 00:17:53.800 --> 00:17:55.780 in a random configuration. 324 00:17:55.940 --> 00:17:57.040 Some of the bulbs are on, 325 00:17:57.120 --> 00:17:58.020 some of the bulbs are off, 326 00:17:58.100 --> 00:17:59.500 and you just let it develop 327 00:17:59.500 --> 00:18:00.780 according to these rules. 328 00:18:01.960 --> 00:18:03.400 Well, I don't know what you'd expect to happen, 329 00:18:03.460 --> 00:18:04.720 but I would expect that nothing very interesting 330 00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:05.300 would happen at all. 331 00:18:05.340 --> 00:18:08.140 It would just sort of twinkle away haphazardly 332 00:18:08.140 --> 00:18:09.800 without anything interesting happening. 333 00:18:09.880 --> 00:18:10.760 But that's entirely wrong. 334 00:18:11.660 --> 00:18:14.720 Because it turns out that very, very soon 335 00:18:15.400 --> 00:18:17.800 the system self-organizes itself 336 00:18:18.660 --> 00:18:23.400 into an astonishingly structured pattern of behavior. 337 00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:26.800 If there are 10,000 light bulbs in the array, 338 00:18:27.420 --> 00:18:29.820 the number of possible states of illumination, 339 00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:31.060 different states of illumination, 340 00:18:31.060 --> 00:18:33.860 you could have is 2 to the 10,000, 341 00:18:34.760 --> 00:18:37.960 which is about 10 to the 3,000. 342 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:40.800 That's a 1 followed by 3,000 zeros. 343 00:18:41.660 --> 00:18:42.900 You don't need to be a mathematician to see 344 00:18:42.900 --> 00:18:44.760 that's a very, very big number indeed. 345 00:18:45.280 --> 00:18:47.840 But it turns out that if you set the system going, 346 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:50.140 it will soon settle down 347 00:18:50.660 --> 00:18:54.040 simply to circulating through a hundred 348 00:18:54.660 --> 00:18:56.620 different patterns of illumination. 349 00:18:57.320 --> 00:18:59.420 It orders itself to reduce 350 00:18:59.420 --> 00:19:01.900 10 to the 3,000 possibilities 351 00:19:02.660 --> 00:19:05.220 down to just 10 to the 200 possibilities. 352 00:19:06.060 --> 00:19:09.780 That's the generation of an astonishing degree of order. 353 00:19:10.020 --> 00:19:11.640 Every time I describe this system, 354 00:19:11.660 --> 00:19:14.240 I'm sort of bowled over by the thought of this behavior. 355 00:19:15.020 --> 00:19:15.960 So what's going on? 356 00:19:16.020 --> 00:19:17.240 Well, we don't know what's going on really. 357 00:19:17.400 --> 00:19:18.700 People find this happens. 358 00:19:18.820 --> 00:19:21.000 They say it's natural history at the moment. 359 00:19:21.140 --> 00:19:24.120 There isn't a deep underlying theory known to us, 360 00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:26.520 but clearly there must be a deep underlying theory. 361 00:19:27.040 --> 00:19:29.020 And we can, in general terms, I think, 362 00:19:29.040 --> 00:19:31.340 see what that theory is going to be. 363 00:19:31.640 --> 00:19:34.120 Of course, there will still be the bits and pieces description, 364 00:19:34.600 --> 00:19:35.460 what's going on, 365 00:19:35.500 --> 00:19:37.200 the exchange of energy between constituents. 366 00:19:37.360 --> 00:19:40.000 That aspect of physical structure 367 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:41.200 is certainly part of the story. 368 00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:43.240 But there has to be a complementary story 369 00:19:43.240 --> 00:19:45.220 which speaks not in terms of bits and pieces, 370 00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:48.140 but in terms of totalities, holistically, 371 00:19:48.740 --> 00:19:52.280 and which speaks not in terms of the exchange of energy, 372 00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:55.280 but in something like a concept of information, 373 00:19:55.620 --> 00:19:59.540 the specification of structured patterns of behavior. 374 00:20:00.220 --> 00:20:03.020 So you see, approaching it from the scientific end, 375 00:20:03.120 --> 00:20:05.200 just moving a tiny step in that direction, 376 00:20:05.300 --> 00:20:06.660 the concept of information, 377 00:20:06.860 --> 00:20:08.320 of information-bearing pattern, 378 00:20:08.460 --> 00:20:11.080 is, I think, going to be fundamental, 379 00:20:11.180 --> 00:20:12.220 a fundamental concept in science. 380 00:20:12.320 --> 00:20:14.620 I think my guess would be 381 00:20:14.620 --> 00:20:16.620 that by the end of the 21st century, 382 00:20:16.840 --> 00:20:18.440 which of course I can't see, 383 00:20:18.740 --> 00:20:20.600 but by the end of the 21st century, 384 00:20:20.780 --> 00:20:23.520 information will take its place alongside energy 385 00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:26.620 as one of the two fundamental categories 386 00:20:26.620 --> 00:20:28.740 to use in thinking about the physical world. 387 00:20:28.820 --> 00:20:30.060 So the idea of the soul 388 00:20:30.060 --> 00:20:32.200 as the information-bearing pattern of the body, 389 00:20:32.260 --> 00:20:34.000 in some immensely complex way, 390 00:20:34.160 --> 00:20:38.360 in some immensely temporally developing way, 391 00:20:38.580 --> 00:20:40.660 in some immensely relational way, 392 00:20:41.180 --> 00:20:41.320 in some immensely physical way, 393 00:20:41.320 --> 00:20:41.820 is that the pattern that is me 394 00:20:41.820 --> 00:20:43.440 doesn't just finish at my skin. 395 00:20:44.760 --> 00:20:47.500 As a person, I'm constituted also, of course, 396 00:20:47.520 --> 00:20:50.060 by all those relationships in which I stand, 397 00:20:50.120 --> 00:20:52.920 particularly those with those who are near and dear to me. 398 00:20:53.060 --> 00:20:55.240 So it's an enormously complicated concept, 399 00:20:55.360 --> 00:20:56.900 but that's the way to think about it. 400 00:20:57.280 --> 00:20:59.860 And I think science is encouraging us 401 00:20:59.860 --> 00:21:01.480 to think about the soul in that sort of way. 402 00:21:01.560 --> 00:21:03.460 And if we think about the soul in that sort of way, 403 00:21:03.580 --> 00:21:05.480 then we shall take a developmental view 404 00:21:05.480 --> 00:21:06.900 of human nature, 405 00:21:07.020 --> 00:21:08.620 and then we shall see, I think, 406 00:21:11.180 --> 00:21:13.440 the use of embryos for serious purposes. 407 00:21:13.900 --> 00:21:15.660 And I think we shall also see 408 00:21:15.660 --> 00:21:17.260 that the 14-day rule, 409 00:21:17.420 --> 00:21:19.880 which is the rule enshrined in UK legislation 410 00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:20.520 that I described, 411 00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:22.580 is actually a very cautious 412 00:21:22.580 --> 00:21:25.440 and conservatively calculated limit. 413 00:21:25.540 --> 00:21:27.360 We should be cautious and conservative 414 00:21:27.360 --> 00:21:28.960 in thinking about these things. 415 00:21:29.080 --> 00:21:32.060 We should take heed 416 00:21:32.060 --> 00:21:33.900 to a sort of precautionary principle, 417 00:21:34.080 --> 00:21:36.540 but not to the extent of turning it 418 00:21:36.540 --> 00:21:40.480 into a paralysis principle. 419 00:21:42.020 --> 00:21:44.140 I'd like to sort of finish off, I think, 420 00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:46.480 by making a couple of theological comments, 421 00:21:46.600 --> 00:21:46.940 if I may. 422 00:21:47.380 --> 00:21:49.100 I've described the soul as being 423 00:21:49.100 --> 00:21:51.140 the information-bearing pattern 424 00:21:51.140 --> 00:21:52.420 carried by the body. 425 00:21:53.500 --> 00:21:54.840 And that means, I think, 426 00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:56.280 that the soul so defined, 427 00:21:56.580 --> 00:21:58.640 and this is where I begin to differ 428 00:21:58.640 --> 00:22:00.360 from Thomas Aquinas, 429 00:22:01.240 --> 00:22:03.480 has no natural expectation 430 00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:05.740 of a destiny beyond death. 431 00:22:06.020 --> 00:22:08.780 By that I mean, as far as the horizontal story 432 00:22:08.780 --> 00:22:12.000 that science, in its purely naturalistic terms, 433 00:22:12.140 --> 00:22:13.000 is able to tell, 434 00:22:13.480 --> 00:22:16.000 then the pattern that is me, 435 00:22:16.120 --> 00:22:17.480 carried by my body, 436 00:22:17.540 --> 00:22:20.800 will dissolve with the decay of my body. 437 00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:22.980 In that sense, there is not a natural expectation 438 00:22:22.980 --> 00:22:24.860 of a destiny beyond death, 439 00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:26.940 as far as the horizontal story 440 00:22:26.940 --> 00:22:28.380 of science is concerned. 441 00:22:28.800 --> 00:22:31.140 Because I believe there is another story to tell, 442 00:22:31.240 --> 00:22:32.760 the vertical story, if you like, 443 00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:34.760 of the faithfulness of God. 444 00:22:35.060 --> 00:22:37.580 And I believe that we do have a destiny beyond death. 445 00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:38.760 And I believe that we do have a destiny beyond death. 446 00:22:38.780 --> 00:22:39.320 And I believe that we do have a destiny beyond death. 447 00:22:39.320 --> 00:22:41.320 And I believe that it is a perfectly coherent hope, 448 00:22:41.420 --> 00:22:43.580 and one that I certainly embrace, 449 00:22:43.880 --> 00:22:45.520 that the pattern that is me, 450 00:22:45.560 --> 00:22:48.660 though it dissolves with the decay of my body at my death, 451 00:22:48.760 --> 00:22:51.120 will be not forgotten by God, 452 00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:53.300 will be held in the divine memory. 453 00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:55.920 The pattern that is me, or the pattern that is you, 454 00:22:56.000 --> 00:22:57.160 will not be lost, 455 00:22:57.780 --> 00:23:00.300 because of the faithfulness of God. 456 00:23:00.560 --> 00:23:03.500 Now being held as a pattern in the divine mind 457 00:23:03.500 --> 00:23:05.120 is not, in my view, 458 00:23:05.740 --> 00:23:08.120 a fully human destiny beyond death. 459 00:23:08.120 --> 00:23:09.120 It's a sort of step. 460 00:23:09.280 --> 00:23:10.760 It's an intermediate step. 461 00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:13.420 Because I think it's intrinsic to human beings, 462 00:23:13.480 --> 00:23:15.500 not only that we are information-bearing patterns, 463 00:23:15.600 --> 00:23:17.960 but that we are embodied information-bearing patterns. 464 00:23:18.800 --> 00:23:24.380 And so if I have a truly and fully human destiny beyond death, 465 00:23:24.520 --> 00:23:26.460 that pattern preserved in God's memory 466 00:23:26.460 --> 00:23:28.940 will have to be re-embodied in some way. 467 00:23:29.940 --> 00:23:31.640 And that is why the Christian hope 468 00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:33.160 of a destiny beyond death 469 00:23:33.160 --> 00:23:35.500 has never been a sort of spiritual survival. 470 00:23:35.500 --> 00:23:37.500 It's not necessarily, anyway, a spiritual survival. 471 00:23:38.180 --> 00:23:40.500 But it has been death and resurrection. 472 00:23:41.020 --> 00:23:43.040 From the Christian point of view, death is a real end, 473 00:23:43.160 --> 00:23:44.680 but it is not the ultimate end, 474 00:23:44.820 --> 00:23:46.320 because only God is ultimate. 475 00:23:46.760 --> 00:23:49.080 And so our re-embodiment, 476 00:23:49.220 --> 00:23:51.660 and of course re-embodiment in some different domain, 477 00:23:51.900 --> 00:23:54.420 I mean there's no point in being made alive again or to die again, 478 00:23:54.600 --> 00:23:57.160 so there will have to be a different form of embodiment, 479 00:23:57.360 --> 00:24:00.480 but that seems to me to be a coherent hope 480 00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:01.840 and one that I certainly embrace, 481 00:24:02.580 --> 00:24:05.100 based fundamentally on a trust 482 00:24:05.500 --> 00:24:06.800 in the faithfulness of God. 483 00:24:07.740 --> 00:24:09.940 So you see how complicated life is, really. 484 00:24:12.020 --> 00:24:15.160 I mean, we started off by asking what seems a fairly simple question. 485 00:24:15.220 --> 00:24:16.980 I mean, here's developments taking place 486 00:24:16.980 --> 00:24:20.500 in genetics and embryology and so on. 487 00:24:20.580 --> 00:24:21.560 Should we do this? 488 00:24:21.600 --> 00:24:24.380 Should we use embryonic stem cells? 489 00:24:24.500 --> 00:24:25.600 And so on. 490 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:28.040 That turns us to the question, 491 00:24:28.120 --> 00:24:31.340 are these already human persons? 492 00:24:31.420 --> 00:24:33.920 If they are human persons, then we shouldn't do it? 493 00:24:34.540 --> 00:24:36.540 If they are not, then there's a possibility. 494 00:24:36.920 --> 00:24:38.200 It's still human life, of course, 495 00:24:38.260 --> 00:24:39.400 so it has to be treated with respect, 496 00:24:39.560 --> 00:24:41.260 but there's a possibility. 497 00:24:42.080 --> 00:24:44.740 And the question of personhood depends upon, really, 498 00:24:45.320 --> 00:24:48.420 very deep metaphysical questions 499 00:24:48.420 --> 00:24:49.900 about the nature of human nature. 500 00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:53.140 If we are dualist beings, 501 00:24:53.280 --> 00:24:57.560 composed of, in principle, separable soul and body, 502 00:24:58.100 --> 00:25:03.040 then I think we are probably persons from our conception. 503 00:25:03.040 --> 00:25:06.260 If we are psychosomatic unities, 504 00:25:06.320 --> 00:25:09.740 if we are animated bodies in that ancient Hebrew sense, 505 00:25:09.960 --> 00:25:11.740 then we will grow into personhood, 506 00:25:11.820 --> 00:25:13.460 and then there becomes these possibilities. 507 00:25:14.020 --> 00:25:16.600 And that's one of the reasons why our ethical discourse 508 00:25:16.600 --> 00:25:21.000 about these issues has to be very deep and wide-ranging. 509 00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:27.920 Of course, we need the testimony and the help of the experts, 510 00:25:28.020 --> 00:25:30.640 the embryologists and geneticists and people like that, 511 00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:32.260 but we can't leave it to them. 512 00:25:32.260 --> 00:25:33.840 They can't be judges in their own cause, 513 00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:36.520 because the questions and issues that are raised 514 00:25:36.520 --> 00:25:39.860 are deeper than any single specialized science. 515 00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:43.780 And that, incidentally, is why something like this Festival of Ideas, 516 00:25:43.800 --> 00:25:48.040 with its very wide-ranging input of insight and experience, 517 00:25:48.600 --> 00:25:53.860 drawn from vastly varied forms of human encounter with reality, 518 00:25:54.120 --> 00:25:55.460 is such an important thing to do. 519 00:25:55.980 --> 00:25:57.640 So that's what I think about these things, 520 00:25:57.720 --> 00:25:59.920 but I'd be interested to know what you think about these things. 521 00:26:00.040 --> 00:26:02.240 And I saw somebody who would like to tell me about them, 522 00:26:02.260 --> 00:26:04.560 so perhaps we move over to a discussion period. 523 00:26:05.760 --> 00:26:06.160 Thanks. 524 00:26:13.640 --> 00:26:14.860 Those who have questions, 525 00:26:15.080 --> 00:26:18.080 there's a microphone in the middle of the building, 526 00:26:18.820 --> 00:26:20.340 and there's someone standing there, 527 00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:24.300 so if you'd just make your way to the microphone to ask a question. 528 00:26:24.460 --> 00:26:26.000 And, John, if you'd take them as you're ready. 529 00:26:26.140 --> 00:26:27.180 Sure, yeah, if I can hear. Yes, great. 530 00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:31.620 Yes, Dean Dowling of the Atheist Foundation of Australia. 531 00:26:32.260 --> 00:26:34.880 You'll find our website, et cetera, on our thinking. 532 00:26:35.100 --> 00:26:38.080 Now, brain damage causes a change in personality. 533 00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:38.720 Right. 534 00:26:38.760 --> 00:26:40.820 Does that change in soul? 535 00:26:41.060 --> 00:26:44.500 The stem cell, embryonic stem cells and so on, 536 00:26:44.600 --> 00:26:48.480 these are undifferentiated cells which could develop into kidney cells, 537 00:26:48.740 --> 00:26:51.720 heart cells and brain cells. 538 00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:54.080 As far as I know, the kidneys don't do the thinking, 539 00:26:54.140 --> 00:26:55.740 it's the brain cells which do the thinking. 540 00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:01.020 So it's more and more becoming a materialist version of what life is about. 541 00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:03.600 Resurrection. 542 00:27:03.720 --> 00:27:07.460 I don't want to be resurrected three days after my 71 years of my crook back. 543 00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:11.900 It's just becoming more and more like Prof Smarts, 544 00:27:12.020 --> 00:27:13.320 just a materialist viewpoint. 545 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:16.480 Where's your evidence for the existence of God? 546 00:27:16.760 --> 00:27:18.660 Where's your evidence for the existence of souls? 547 00:27:18.660 --> 00:27:21.820 Well, those are big questions, and I'd be very happy to tackle them, 548 00:27:21.880 --> 00:27:24.260 but I can't tackle them in a couple of minutes' reply. 549 00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:27.080 But let me, of course, you're absolutely right to say 550 00:27:27.080 --> 00:27:30.180 that brain damage affects the expression of our personalities. 551 00:27:30.180 --> 00:27:33.020 And of course, so do the effects of drugs. 552 00:27:33.380 --> 00:27:37.540 And that's one of the reasons why I personally embrace very much 553 00:27:37.540 --> 00:27:40.440 the notion of human beings as psychosomatic unities. 554 00:27:40.660 --> 00:27:43.560 I mean, clearly what happens to us in our embodiment 555 00:27:43.560 --> 00:27:48.180 does affect, at the very least, our expression of ourselves. 556 00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:53.840 But I don't think that proves that we are merely collections of atoms. 557 00:27:53.960 --> 00:28:00.160 It doesn't prove that we do not have a spiritual and mental domain. 558 00:28:00.180 --> 00:28:02.320 It doesn't prove that we have a spiritual dimension to our characters. 559 00:28:04.020 --> 00:28:05.700 Whether you want to be resurrected or not, 560 00:28:05.800 --> 00:28:07.620 I don't think you're going to have the choice about that. 561 00:28:15.280 --> 00:28:20.240 I was very interested in your talking about information. 562 00:28:21.640 --> 00:28:25.060 I think it's called emergent theory or something like that. 563 00:28:25.160 --> 00:28:27.100 I don't know much about information theory, 564 00:28:27.100 --> 00:28:29.700 but in your example of the twinkling lights, 565 00:28:29.840 --> 00:28:30.940 the twinkling light bulbs, 566 00:28:32.100 --> 00:28:36.220 isn't it at least possible that in principle 567 00:28:36.220 --> 00:28:41.560 you could predict the emergence of those repeating 100 patterns 568 00:28:41.560 --> 00:28:43.540 or whatever they are from... 569 00:28:45.060 --> 00:28:47.400 If you had enough computing power 570 00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:49.380 and you knew enough about the mathematics, 571 00:28:50.140 --> 00:28:55.300 isn't it possible that determinists are right 572 00:28:55.300 --> 00:28:56.560 and that you can just... 573 00:28:56.560 --> 00:29:01.060 work everything out from the most basic level, first principles? 574 00:29:01.220 --> 00:29:04.260 You would in fact be able to predict that those 100 patterns would come up. 575 00:29:04.320 --> 00:29:04.640 Well, yes. 576 00:29:05.540 --> 00:29:07.600 Of course, it's a computerized model. 577 00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:09.600 And it's therefore an imperfect model. 578 00:29:09.720 --> 00:29:11.760 A computerized model has to be a deterministic model 579 00:29:11.760 --> 00:29:13.820 because that's how the computers work. 580 00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:14.800 So in principle, 581 00:29:15.120 --> 00:29:17.820 I mean, the computers produce these patterns 582 00:29:17.820 --> 00:29:20.080 by doing exactly those computations. 583 00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:25.800 So it's simply pointing you in the direction of saying 584 00:29:25.800 --> 00:29:27.180 that when you have complex systems, 585 00:29:27.320 --> 00:29:30.080 there is going to be this complementary form of description 586 00:29:30.080 --> 00:29:32.240 on the bits and pieces energy side, 587 00:29:32.420 --> 00:29:37.620 a holistic informational pattern forming side. 588 00:29:37.900 --> 00:29:41.040 Now those two are in the computer model, 589 00:29:41.800 --> 00:29:46.380 are as you say, in principle, tightly tied together. 590 00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:47.720 That's how the computations are done. 591 00:29:48.460 --> 00:29:49.480 That doesn't follow... 592 00:29:49.480 --> 00:29:52.240 There are also, of course, some physical examples we're able to study. 593 00:29:52.340 --> 00:29:55.620 And there may be additional unpredictability 594 00:29:55.800 --> 00:29:58.420 and flexibility that is present in more realistic systems 595 00:29:58.420 --> 00:30:01.680 that will not make it in some sense 596 00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:04.820 a consequence of all the little things. 597 00:30:05.120 --> 00:30:06.760 So it's an imperfect example, 598 00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:09.480 but it's an example which is pointing, I think, 599 00:30:09.500 --> 00:30:10.600 in a very interesting direction. 600 00:30:12.780 --> 00:30:13.220 Okay. 601 00:30:13.940 --> 00:30:15.500 Take the next one. 602 00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:17.980 There's quite a queue of people asking questions. 603 00:30:18.100 --> 00:30:20.620 I think if we restrict it to one question per person, 604 00:30:20.780 --> 00:30:23.640 obviously this is a conversation that can go on in many directions 605 00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:25.060 and I'd encourage you to take it. 606 00:30:25.340 --> 00:30:25.780 Right. 607 00:30:25.800 --> 00:30:26.720 Hello. 608 00:30:26.900 --> 00:30:28.060 My name's Jean Murray. 609 00:30:28.280 --> 00:30:29.980 I actually work in this area. 610 00:30:30.140 --> 00:30:33.680 I advise governments and write policy and law in this area. 611 00:30:33.800 --> 00:30:35.740 I'm not hearing you very well. 612 00:30:35.820 --> 00:30:35.940 I'm sorry. 613 00:30:36.200 --> 00:30:37.360 I'll stand a bit closer. 614 00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:39.100 My name's Jean Murray. 615 00:30:39.240 --> 00:30:42.960 I write policy and law in this area and advise governments. 616 00:30:43.100 --> 00:30:45.620 So these are very real conversations that I've had to have 617 00:30:45.620 --> 00:30:47.180 and some of them I've had with Andrew. 618 00:30:47.460 --> 00:30:51.040 And one of the really confusing aspects of this, 619 00:30:51.120 --> 00:30:53.620 when I have conversations with people about conception, 620 00:30:54.260 --> 00:30:55.780 is they're often talking about 621 00:30:55.780 --> 00:30:56.840 very different things. 622 00:30:57.780 --> 00:30:59.720 And you need to know what people's definitions are 623 00:30:59.720 --> 00:31:01.060 before you can complete the conversation. 624 00:31:01.580 --> 00:31:04.380 When we're talking about conversation within the body, 625 00:31:04.580 --> 00:31:06.540 we say that a child is not conceived 626 00:31:06.540 --> 00:31:10.660 until the embryo is formed and implanted 627 00:31:10.660 --> 00:31:11.820 and a pregnancy starts. 628 00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:15.900 But when we're talking about conception in a laboratory 629 00:31:15.900 --> 00:31:17.340 with an embryo, 630 00:31:17.360 --> 00:31:19.900 they may be talking about fertilisation, 631 00:31:20.120 --> 00:31:21.440 when the sperm enters the egg, 632 00:31:21.580 --> 00:31:24.240 or a certain developmental stage further down, 633 00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:28.560 or when the embryo's been introduced to the uterus 634 00:31:28.560 --> 00:31:29.260 and then it implants. 635 00:31:29.740 --> 00:31:35.220 And that complicates the decision of when does the soul enter an embryo, 636 00:31:35.220 --> 00:31:37.640 when does it become a person. 637 00:31:37.860 --> 00:31:41.680 So conception is strictly a process that starts with fertilisation 638 00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:43.900 and ends with implantation. 639 00:31:44.460 --> 00:31:46.680 How do you respond to that notion? 640 00:31:47.300 --> 00:31:49.360 Well, I mean, certainly the process is an issue. 641 00:31:49.460 --> 00:31:50.100 I understand. 642 00:31:50.460 --> 00:31:51.540 I'm just a physicist, 643 00:31:51.640 --> 00:31:54.220 but I understand that the process of fertilisation 644 00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:57.020 itself is not an instantaneous process. 645 00:31:57.400 --> 00:31:59.820 It takes a little time to develop. 646 00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:06.240 So I think there are obviously definitional difficulties there. 647 00:32:06.620 --> 00:32:10.660 But once there is a fusion of the gametes, 648 00:32:10.700 --> 00:32:11.900 then the process is beginning. 649 00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:16.440 And of course, in a human being, 650 00:32:16.500 --> 00:32:19.680 it won't continue if there isn't implantation. 651 00:32:19.720 --> 00:32:22.860 In vitro, it can be continued, at least for a while. 652 00:32:23.320 --> 00:32:24.220 But the question is, 653 00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:28.220 once it's begun, 654 00:32:28.420 --> 00:32:31.260 have you already established human personhood? 655 00:32:31.400 --> 00:32:34.000 There are people, lots of people of course, 656 00:32:34.120 --> 00:32:35.680 who think that that's right. 657 00:32:35.840 --> 00:32:37.220 And if they are correct, 658 00:32:37.540 --> 00:32:40.300 then I think you really can't do anything with embryos. 659 00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:42.680 You see, another consequence, 660 00:32:42.820 --> 00:32:46.260 if it's the case that embryos, 661 00:32:46.260 --> 00:32:47.620 from the moment of their formation, 662 00:32:47.860 --> 00:32:49.800 are human persons, 663 00:32:50.020 --> 00:32:53.580 then you have a moral obligation to do all you can for their flourishing. 664 00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:56.760 And you can argue, and of course people do argue, 665 00:32:56.960 --> 00:33:00.600 that that means that you should not create embryos in vitro 666 00:33:00.600 --> 00:33:02.280 that you are not going to implant. 667 00:33:03.780 --> 00:33:06.300 Because obviously implantation is a necessary stage 668 00:33:06.300 --> 00:33:08.960 for the flourishing of that person, 669 00:33:09.020 --> 00:33:10.180 if it really is already a person. 670 00:33:10.360 --> 00:33:13.200 So there are complicated issues of that sort. 671 00:33:13.380 --> 00:33:15.480 And I think it's entirely understandable 672 00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:21.040 that people of genuine ethical concern 673 00:33:21.040 --> 00:33:22.160 and ethical goodwill 674 00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:25.120 are going to differ about how to assess these matters. 675 00:33:25.240 --> 00:33:26.680 I've just tried to explain to you 676 00:33:27.520 --> 00:33:29.500 how I myself assess it, 677 00:33:29.540 --> 00:33:31.620 and what I think are some of the considerations 678 00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:33.720 that we have to bring to bear. 679 00:33:34.540 --> 00:33:36.980 It's certainly not an exhaustive discussion 680 00:33:37.460 --> 00:33:38.820 of how to tackle these things, 681 00:33:38.900 --> 00:33:41.480 but I think it's the way to approach them. 682 00:33:41.640 --> 00:33:43.540 That's why I offer it anyway, in that sense. 683 00:33:47.500 --> 00:33:50.180 Yeah, thanks very much for your very interesting talk. 684 00:33:50.840 --> 00:33:51.700 I must say, 685 00:33:51.700 --> 00:33:54.460 I was rather surprised at the outset 686 00:33:54.460 --> 00:33:57.260 when you said that you thought 687 00:33:57.260 --> 00:34:01.040 that if you were a dualist, 688 00:34:01.700 --> 00:34:03.460 particularly a substance dualist, 689 00:34:03.480 --> 00:34:08.900 you would be most likely to think of human persons 690 00:34:08.900 --> 00:34:11.320 as being there from the very beginning, 691 00:34:11.500 --> 00:34:14.760 and that you were more likely to be comfortable 692 00:34:15.560 --> 00:34:19.480 with a more developmental view of human personhood 693 00:34:19.480 --> 00:34:21.240 if you were a materialist, essentially. 694 00:34:23.220 --> 00:34:26.720 I think actually the opposite. 695 00:34:26.940 --> 00:34:29.560 I mean, one of the reasons I feel fairly comfortable 696 00:34:29.560 --> 00:34:32.620 with stem cell research is precisely because 697 00:34:32.620 --> 00:34:37.200 I am a kind of substance dualist. 698 00:34:37.220 --> 00:34:40.820 And it seems to me that generally speaking, 699 00:34:41.220 --> 00:34:45.580 philosophers, and I think I probably include 700 00:34:45.580 --> 00:34:47.120 Richard Swinburne here, 701 00:34:47.260 --> 00:34:49.860 probably the most eminent Christian philosopher 702 00:34:49.860 --> 00:34:51.000 going about today, 703 00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:56.080 would think of this spiritual substance 704 00:34:56.080 --> 00:34:57.940 as, if you like, 705 00:34:57.960 --> 00:35:01.600 as sort of coinciding with the advent of consciousness. 706 00:35:03.540 --> 00:35:07.120 And I suspect that that would be the normal view. 707 00:35:07.240 --> 00:35:09.560 On the other hand, it does seem, 708 00:35:09.660 --> 00:35:11.660 particularly if you want to talk in terms of 709 00:35:11.660 --> 00:35:13.800 this information-bearing pattern, 710 00:35:14.860 --> 00:35:18.100 that you might actually want to defend the embryo, 711 00:35:18.100 --> 00:35:19.940 because surely the information, 712 00:35:20.580 --> 00:35:23.980 okay, is there in the DNA. 713 00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:27.940 And it's just a sort of outworking or embodiment 714 00:35:27.940 --> 00:35:30.240 of that information that takes place 715 00:35:30.240 --> 00:35:32.800 as the embryo develops. 716 00:35:33.160 --> 00:35:36.000 You have to be a very strong genetic reductionist 717 00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:39.280 to think that we are simply determined by our genes. 718 00:35:39.560 --> 00:35:41.700 And I'm sure you actually, from what you've said, 719 00:35:41.780 --> 00:35:44.140 I'm sure you don't take that point of view. 720 00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:45.960 We are more than our genes. 721 00:35:46.280 --> 00:35:49.920 We are, as the old nature and nurture argument says, 722 00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:53.060 we are more than our genes. 723 00:35:53.160 --> 00:35:53.840 And in fact, of course, 724 00:35:53.860 --> 00:35:57.200 identical twins make that point pretty clearly for us. 725 00:35:57.280 --> 00:35:58.980 They have exactly the same DNA. 726 00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:02.540 But of course, they don't grow into exactly the same persons. 727 00:36:02.740 --> 00:36:04.060 So I don't think I'd do that. 728 00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:07.840 What you say is interesting about taking a dualist point of view, 729 00:36:07.900 --> 00:36:13.180 that the spiritual half of a person 730 00:36:13.860 --> 00:36:16.180 could be sort of added on at some later stage. 731 00:36:16.560 --> 00:36:18.920 I don't think that's very often the case. 732 00:36:20.620 --> 00:36:22.460 It's certainly not a logical impossibility. 733 00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:25.000 But then you have to make some sort of estimate 734 00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:26.300 when you think that happens. 735 00:36:26.760 --> 00:36:30.060 And if you're going to date it to consciousness, 736 00:36:30.600 --> 00:36:34.780 that would be very late indeed, it seems to me, 737 00:36:34.840 --> 00:36:37.540 or likely to be late indeed in the development of things. 738 00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:40.100 But there are lots of possibilities here. 739 00:36:40.200 --> 00:36:44.440 And I acknowledge that what you said is a logical possibility, 740 00:36:44.740 --> 00:36:47.220 though I don't think a very attractive one, I thought. 741 00:36:48.920 --> 00:36:49.120 Yeah. 742 00:36:50.920 --> 00:36:52.080 I'm Jan Coker. 743 00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:58.320 And I think I just wanted to make a few comments 744 00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:01.100 and then ask for your comments further on it, 745 00:37:01.220 --> 00:37:05.160 which is, first of all, whether you're thinking of the human being 746 00:37:05.160 --> 00:37:09.860 as being a Cartesian duality or an animate being. 747 00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:13.780 Sorry, I'm elderly chap, but not terribly good hearing. 748 00:37:14.060 --> 00:37:17.400 If you can be as loud and as distinct as you can, 749 00:37:17.460 --> 00:37:18.320 it'll be helpful to me. 750 00:37:18.980 --> 00:37:19.580 Okay. 751 00:37:20.460 --> 00:37:22.980 Then I will be as succinct as I can. 752 00:37:23.260 --> 00:37:23.500 Correct. 753 00:37:24.680 --> 00:37:29.180 You said that the human being is determined at the point 754 00:37:29.180 --> 00:37:34.320 it is considered being an entity, a fully human entity. 755 00:37:34.780 --> 00:37:40.900 And yet you went on to say that if the human soul 756 00:37:40.900 --> 00:37:43.040 or the human being continues after life, 757 00:37:43.100 --> 00:37:47.120 something that is not provable, but you take to be the truth. 758 00:37:47.340 --> 00:37:47.600 Yes. 759 00:37:47.600 --> 00:37:52.060 And yet you're saying there's that 14-day period in there 760 00:37:52.060 --> 00:37:55.360 when we consider the human being not to be fully human. 761 00:37:55.480 --> 00:37:59.640 Now, I'm not arguing for or against any particular point of view. 762 00:37:59.720 --> 00:38:01.120 I think these things are complex. 763 00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:02.320 Yes. 764 00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:07.620 And I think they're complexified by things such as desire. 765 00:38:07.780 --> 00:38:10.240 We have a desire to do this kind of research. 766 00:38:10.340 --> 00:38:11.060 There's competition. 767 00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:11.820 There's money. 768 00:38:11.920 --> 00:38:12.980 There's all those factors. 769 00:38:13.540 --> 00:38:16.600 I'm just wondering if the discussion, 770 00:38:16.780 --> 00:38:17.580 if the discussion, 771 00:38:17.600 --> 00:38:19.840 needs to be expanded in both directions. 772 00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:22.740 Because if the soul continues after life, 773 00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:25.320 why does it not exist before? 774 00:38:25.540 --> 00:38:26.440 What's the determination? 775 00:38:26.520 --> 00:38:30.220 Does DNA change at the point of 14 days 776 00:38:30.220 --> 00:38:31.780 to indicate something happening? 777 00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:35.420 You know, there are so many complexities to this 778 00:38:35.420 --> 00:38:38.420 that I wonder about your thoughts about that. 779 00:38:38.600 --> 00:38:39.360 Well, there are, of course. 780 00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:41.540 Well, certainly the DNA doesn't change. 781 00:38:41.700 --> 00:38:44.500 I mean, it doesn't matter where in time DNA, of course, 782 00:38:44.500 --> 00:38:45.220 as life goes on. 783 00:38:45.300 --> 00:38:47.580 But it doesn't fundamentally change at 14 days. 784 00:38:47.600 --> 00:38:51.040 What I'm saying is that additional structure begins to form. 785 00:38:51.300 --> 00:38:54.160 And that to see the primitive streak 786 00:38:54.160 --> 00:38:56.360 as being the dawning of personhood 787 00:38:56.360 --> 00:39:00.860 is actually a very, very conservatively calculated way 788 00:39:00.860 --> 00:39:04.780 of trying to fix a transition point. 789 00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:09.340 And I think we need to be conservative about these things 790 00:39:09.340 --> 00:39:10.020 because we don't, 791 00:39:10.020 --> 00:39:12.560 obviously we don't fully understand what we're doing. 792 00:39:12.620 --> 00:39:14.720 And we need to err on the side of caution. 793 00:39:16.180 --> 00:39:17.340 And again, of course, 794 00:39:17.340 --> 00:39:19.800 there won't be an identifiable moment. 795 00:39:20.040 --> 00:39:21.020 I mean, you know, one does, 796 00:39:21.140 --> 00:39:24.440 what shade of grey does white turn into black 797 00:39:24.440 --> 00:39:25.320 or black into white? 798 00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:29.740 There are demarcation problems of this sort 799 00:39:29.740 --> 00:39:32.280 that even if we knew and understood more than we do, 800 00:39:32.420 --> 00:39:33.840 would be very difficult to solve. 801 00:39:35.660 --> 00:39:37.880 Yes, there are many unresolved issues. 802 00:39:38.160 --> 00:39:40.000 But I think there are certain frameworks 803 00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:43.060 within which we can, in a responsible way, 804 00:39:44.520 --> 00:39:45.540 make our considerations. 805 00:39:45.820 --> 00:39:47.320 That's what I've been trying to sketch this off to you. 806 00:39:47.980 --> 00:39:49.080 Thank you. 807 00:39:52.240 --> 00:39:53.440 Good afternoon. 808 00:39:53.540 --> 00:39:54.400 I'm Stuart Dawes. 809 00:39:57.140 --> 00:40:00.080 Part of my question's already been asked basically. 810 00:40:00.680 --> 00:40:01.280 Sorry? 811 00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:04.040 Part of my question's already been asked. 812 00:40:04.100 --> 00:40:11.200 At what point does the soul become a product of DNA patterns 813 00:40:11.200 --> 00:40:13.060 starting the process? 814 00:40:14.720 --> 00:40:17.320 And, you know, 815 00:40:17.320 --> 00:40:19.040 What point does this... 816 00:40:19.040 --> 00:40:23.520 Yeah, what point does DNA start building the structure, 817 00:40:23.560 --> 00:40:27.080 the structure of the body and the person? 818 00:40:27.180 --> 00:40:28.600 The structure begins to form. 819 00:40:28.620 --> 00:40:32.640 That's to say, differentiated cells begin to form at 14 days. 820 00:40:32.740 --> 00:40:35.680 That's the basis of this 14-day discussion. 821 00:40:36.100 --> 00:40:40.800 Obviously, the degree of structure then present is quite modest, 822 00:40:40.900 --> 00:40:43.840 to say the least, but at least you begin to see. 823 00:40:43.840 --> 00:40:50.500 And until 14 days, all the cells are of the undifferentiated character. 824 00:40:50.840 --> 00:40:54.480 They are, in fact, pluripotent stem cells 825 00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:57.060 that are capable of developing into all these different forms of tissue. 826 00:40:57.360 --> 00:40:59.040 That differentiation begins then, 827 00:40:59.660 --> 00:41:02.980 and it's got to continue, obviously, for the gestation period. 828 00:41:04.600 --> 00:41:09.120 Yeah, the thing I badly phrased, but I was wondering, 829 00:41:09.220 --> 00:41:13.820 at what point do we break from being a victim 830 00:41:13.820 --> 00:41:19.300 of our DNA and learned pet and become that being 831 00:41:19.940 --> 00:41:22.640 that's the other half, the soul? 832 00:41:22.900 --> 00:41:24.340 Well, if you take a developmental point of view, 833 00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:26.520 there isn't going to be a single transition moment, 834 00:41:27.660 --> 00:41:29.460 which you can clearly identify. 835 00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:33.600 I can't say more than that, and there are puzzles there. 836 00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:37.140 It's the best I can do, or I think anyone can do, actually. 837 00:41:37.980 --> 00:41:43.040 We have three minutes left, so try and be quick to allow those behind you. 838 00:41:43.120 --> 00:41:43.340 Thank you. 839 00:41:43.820 --> 00:41:46.380 A lot of my points have already been directed to. 840 00:41:46.420 --> 00:41:49.540 My name's Teresa Hickey, and I'm a scientist that works in this field. 841 00:41:49.860 --> 00:41:53.260 So I have to say, almost from a devil's advocate point of view, 842 00:41:53.320 --> 00:41:56.900 that I don't think your notions about the 14-day hold either, 843 00:41:57.000 --> 00:42:00.140 because one of the things that makes stem cells so juicy 844 00:42:00.140 --> 00:42:07.100 is that they are the most omnipotent, 845 00:42:07.100 --> 00:42:11.260 information-bearing cells of the human being. 846 00:42:11.480 --> 00:42:13.800 And they hold... 847 00:42:13.820 --> 00:42:15.460 They hold all the information, 848 00:42:15.720 --> 00:42:17.620 and then after that 14-day part, 849 00:42:17.860 --> 00:42:21.260 their information in those cells becomes restrictive. 850 00:42:22.220 --> 00:42:25.040 Also, I have to say that before that 14-day point, 851 00:42:25.380 --> 00:42:28.060 you know, I'm not talking just about genes either, 852 00:42:28.160 --> 00:42:31.620 that environmental conditions within the ovary 853 00:42:31.620 --> 00:42:36.640 and environmental conditions within the female reproductive tract 854 00:42:36.640 --> 00:42:38.380 before that embryo implants 855 00:42:38.380 --> 00:42:42.500 is already conditioning how that adult individual 856 00:42:42.500 --> 00:42:43.800 will be able to live. 857 00:42:43.800 --> 00:42:45.800 And that's not something that will come about, you know, 858 00:42:45.820 --> 00:42:49.020 and this has to do with, you know, the whole concept. 859 00:42:49.320 --> 00:42:51.100 So I'm just saying that I don't think the... 860 00:42:51.100 --> 00:42:56.700 I don't agree with your idea that if you believe in this animated person 861 00:42:56.700 --> 00:42:58.180 as opposed to the dualistic, 862 00:42:58.280 --> 00:43:01.300 that the 14-day doesn't hold for me either. 863 00:43:01.940 --> 00:43:04.200 Okay, well, that's your view. 864 00:43:04.640 --> 00:43:08.340 You see, all that's present up to the 14 days is the DNA. 865 00:43:08.540 --> 00:43:10.940 And I say what I said 10 minutes ago, 866 00:43:11.080 --> 00:43:13.040 that if you think that's enough, 867 00:43:13.800 --> 00:43:14.640 define a person. 868 00:43:14.700 --> 00:43:17.600 That does sound terribly genetically reductionist to me. 869 00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:21.720 And I go back to the identical twins example to make the point. 870 00:43:21.860 --> 00:43:23.720 And we are very much more than our genes. 871 00:43:23.980 --> 00:43:25.580 Very much more than our genes. 872 00:43:25.900 --> 00:43:29.340 And we make ourselves in that sort of way. 873 00:43:30.020 --> 00:43:30.540 Right. 874 00:43:31.300 --> 00:43:32.020 Hi, Marie. 875 00:43:33.080 --> 00:43:38.540 I believe by faith that the Bible is the inspired word of God. 876 00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:41.200 And in the Bible, 877 00:43:41.320 --> 00:43:43.780 God tells me that he knew me, 878 00:43:43.800 --> 00:43:44.940 before I was born. 879 00:43:47.620 --> 00:43:49.760 As a theologian, 880 00:43:49.760 --> 00:43:52.760 do you understand it any greater 881 00:43:52.760 --> 00:43:57.100 at what point God knows me? 882 00:43:58.100 --> 00:43:59.140 Well, yes. 883 00:43:59.560 --> 00:44:02.860 That raises a very big and important slew of issues, 884 00:44:03.540 --> 00:44:05.120 which is how God relates to time 885 00:44:05.120 --> 00:44:08.000 and how God's knowledge of temporal beings 886 00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:10.460 relates to their lives in time. 887 00:44:11.740 --> 00:44:13.780 I mean, the Bible doesn't say, 888 00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:16.540 God speaks with a single voice about these things. 889 00:44:16.780 --> 00:44:20.100 The Old Testament, which is very anthropomorphic 890 00:44:20.100 --> 00:44:21.660 in the way in which it speaks of God, 891 00:44:21.720 --> 00:44:25.420 will quite cheerfully speak of God changing God's mind. 892 00:44:27.720 --> 00:44:28.840 Hezekiah, you're gonna die. 893 00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:29.780 Don't wanna die, Lord. 894 00:44:30.060 --> 00:44:31.740 Okay, 15 more years of life. 895 00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:34.320 Now, that's obviously very anthropomorphic. 896 00:44:34.340 --> 00:44:37.320 But there are great subtleties in God's relationship to time, 897 00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:38.620 God's knowledge of creatures, 898 00:44:38.940 --> 00:44:43.520 that I don't think can be read off simply from a literal, 899 00:44:43.520 --> 00:44:46.200 literal reading of a small number of verses of Scripture. 900 00:44:46.420 --> 00:44:47.840 There are lots of problems to wrestle with. 901 00:44:47.960 --> 00:44:49.320 And I'd love to wrestle with them, 902 00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:50.700 but I obviously don't have time to do that. 903 00:44:51.860 --> 00:44:53.740 Unfortunately, our time is spent. 904 00:44:54.220 --> 00:44:57.000 So I'm sorry that some people didn't get to ask their question. 905 00:44:57.200 --> 00:45:00.040 Please join me in thanking John Polkinghorne.