WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.740 Ladies and gentlemen, if I could start proceedings. 2 00:00:05.040 --> 00:00:09.620 My name is Tom Gray. I'm a member of the Supreme Court of South Australia, 3 00:00:09.760 --> 00:00:12.240 and I'm privileged to be able to chair today's session. 4 00:00:13.420 --> 00:00:17.920 Justice Unity Dowell has been an outspoken advocate for human rights 5 00:00:17.920 --> 00:00:22.000 and for women's social and political equality throughout her career. 6 00:00:22.880 --> 00:00:27.680 In January of 1998, she was made a Justice of the High Court of Botswana. 7 00:00:28.980 --> 00:00:32.080 She is the first female judge appointed to that court. 8 00:00:33.380 --> 00:00:39.300 After qualifying as a lawyer, Justice Dowell worked as a prosecutor in the Attorney-General's office 9 00:00:39.300 --> 00:00:42.160 before heading out into general practice. 10 00:00:42.620 --> 00:00:47.540 She and another woman partner began one of the first female law firms in Botswana. 11 00:00:48.540 --> 00:00:53.840 She was an activist lawyer, best known for her work relating to human rights and women's issues. 12 00:00:55.120 --> 00:00:57.660 In the 1990s, she became head of the Supreme Court of Botswana, 13 00:00:57.660 --> 00:00:59.800 heavily involved in women's rights and human rights, 14 00:01:00.900 --> 00:01:03.800 and she established and ran a women's centre in her home village, 15 00:01:04.280 --> 00:01:08.280 co-founded the Women in Law in South Africa research project, 16 00:01:09.240 --> 00:01:13.520 and achieved considerable fame through a case known as a citizenship case. 17 00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:19.060 When Unity Dowell discovered that Botswana's Citizenship Act 18 00:01:19.060 --> 00:01:22.840 denied her children citizenship in the country of their birth 19 00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:24.860 because she was married to an American, 20 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:27.640 she challenged the law as being unlawful. 21 00:01:27.660 --> 00:01:28.260 She was also accused of being unconstitutional. 22 00:01:29.660 --> 00:01:37.400 The lawsuit became a vehicle for fighting what was perceived to be general inequality 23 00:01:37.400 --> 00:01:41.140 affecting thousands of women and children in Botswana. 24 00:01:42.160 --> 00:01:48.300 The law that was challenged allowed for a Botswana man to marry a foreigner 25 00:01:48.300 --> 00:01:52.280 with the entitlement for the children to have the benefit of citizenship, 26 00:01:52.720 --> 00:01:55.000 not so if a woman married a foreigner. 27 00:01:55.580 --> 00:01:57.640 Those children were deemed to be non-citizens. 28 00:01:57.660 --> 00:02:03.160 The legal system did not explicitly guarantee women's equality, 29 00:02:03.580 --> 00:02:07.320 and so the argument turned on more general constitutional rights. 30 00:02:08.500 --> 00:02:12.720 Unity Dowell asserted that the law was discriminatory 31 00:02:12.720 --> 00:02:18.440 and that fundamental rights dictated different result. 32 00:02:19.760 --> 00:02:24.820 The case ran for some years at considerable personal stress, 33 00:02:25.020 --> 00:02:27.420 and ultimately Unity Dowell was successful. 34 00:02:27.660 --> 00:02:31.160 The case was passed in the initial challenge and on appeal. 35 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:35.480 The case clearly remedied a major injustice 36 00:02:35.480 --> 00:02:38.800 and underscored the recognition of human rights. 37 00:02:39.300 --> 00:02:41.740 It led to a change of Botswana law, 38 00:02:42.040 --> 00:02:47.600 leading to equality provisions regardless of gender. 39 00:02:49.260 --> 00:02:51.540 A commission was set up as a result 40 00:02:51.540 --> 00:02:56.300 to investigate the need for other reforms 41 00:02:56.300 --> 00:03:00.200 to bring about consistency in regard to international law 42 00:03:00.200 --> 00:03:02.040 and the respecting of human rights. 43 00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:08.880 According to publications from Justice Dowell, 44 00:03:08.940 --> 00:03:10.380 at the top of the list among such laws 45 00:03:10.380 --> 00:03:13.480 are laws governing domestic violence, child support 46 00:03:13.480 --> 00:03:15.800 and the property rights of married women. 47 00:03:18.060 --> 00:03:20.320 Since her appointment to the Botswana Court, 48 00:03:20.660 --> 00:03:24.800 Justice Dowell has been outspoken in her views on human rights 49 00:03:24.800 --> 00:03:27.240 and equality for women. 50 00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:32.280 She continues to be an activist whilst on the bench. 51 00:03:33.140 --> 00:03:37.080 Quite apart from her legal and judicial work, 52 00:03:37.880 --> 00:03:41.900 Unity Dowell has been a publisher of books, 53 00:03:42.780 --> 00:03:44.600 the first, Far and Beyond, 54 00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:49.800 and her third book is being launched at 2.30 today 55 00:03:50.420 --> 00:03:54.120 in the book tent on the lawns just outside the door. 56 00:03:54.800 --> 00:03:56.420 When the session adjourns today, 57 00:03:56.640 --> 00:04:00.060 you're invited to attend that launch. 58 00:04:04.540 --> 00:04:08.360 Unity says that her work in her novels is not autobiographical. 59 00:04:08.980 --> 00:04:11.280 She did grow up in a small rural village. 60 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:14.420 She's witnessed many incidents similar to those described 61 00:04:14.420 --> 00:04:17.180 in some of her books, in particular Far and Beyond, 62 00:04:17.440 --> 00:04:21.460 and in particular issues of discrimination affecting girls and women 63 00:04:21.460 --> 00:04:23.600 in society in Botswana. 64 00:04:23.600 --> 00:04:27.040 However, she had the good fortune that her parents 65 00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:28.720 treated their children equally, 66 00:04:28.980 --> 00:04:31.260 and they placed a high importance on education 67 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:34.760 and thus laid the platform for the work 68 00:04:34.760 --> 00:04:36.500 and the good work she continues to do. 69 00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:42.560 Unity has an interest in, generally in regard to human rights 70 00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:46.040 and the universal recognition and respecting of human rights, 71 00:04:46.180 --> 00:04:50.120 and that leads to the topic on which you speak today, 72 00:04:51.140 --> 00:04:53.580 in particular dealing with, amongst other matters, 73 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:57.520 the International Criminal Court and the war crimes legislation 74 00:04:57.520 --> 00:05:01.200 and the way in which those bodies respect human rights. 75 00:05:02.580 --> 00:05:05.220 So without further introduction, 76 00:05:05.540 --> 00:05:09.080 could I ask Justice Unity Dower to address us? 77 00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:27.980 Thank you, Justice Gray, for that kind introduction. 78 00:05:28.840 --> 00:05:34.300 And first I would like to thank the organizers of this event 79 00:05:34.300 --> 00:05:38.900 for inviting me to be part of this very exciting festival. 80 00:05:41.660 --> 00:05:47.240 My topic today relates to universal jurisdiction 81 00:05:47.240 --> 00:05:52.100 for crimes against gross human rights abuses. 82 00:05:53.780 --> 00:05:57.260 And as a few opening points, 83 00:05:57.460 --> 00:06:02.000 I would like to suggest that we need to begin to rethink 84 00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:04.280 our peace and security agenda. 85 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:09.460 We need to begin to rethink the way in which we believe, 86 00:06:09.720 --> 00:06:11.320 or we have believed traditionally, 87 00:06:11.460 --> 00:06:14.100 that we can initiate and keep peace. 88 00:06:14.580 --> 00:06:17.940 And I would like to suggest that I think it's been proven 89 00:06:17.940 --> 00:06:23.580 or shown repeatedly that military might is not the best way 90 00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:27.640 to initiate, to maintain, or to keep peace. 91 00:06:27.840 --> 00:06:32.500 And we need new ways of thinking about that peace agenda. 92 00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:38.200 I think it's a fact we all know that millions of people have died 93 00:06:38.200 --> 00:06:43.580 even just during the past century due to human rights abuses. 94 00:06:44.060 --> 00:06:47.320 And the perpetrators of those abuses have escaped 95 00:06:47.320 --> 00:06:49.400 without being brought to justice. 96 00:06:52.320 --> 00:06:53.580 We often think that we are the ones who are the victims 97 00:06:53.580 --> 00:06:55.120 We often talk about globalization. 98 00:06:55.700 --> 00:06:59.000 I think it's been the topic even at this forum 99 00:06:59.000 --> 00:06:59.980 in the last two days. 100 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:04.520 And I think we all acknowledge that globalization so far 101 00:07:04.520 --> 00:07:06.900 has been very much around the issues of finance, 102 00:07:07.240 --> 00:07:10.400 of trade, of investment, and technology, 103 00:07:10.620 --> 00:07:12.780 and military collaborations. 104 00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:17.260 And I think that what is still lacking is globalization 105 00:07:17.260 --> 00:07:19.220 at the justice level, 106 00:07:19.380 --> 00:07:22.140 that national courts all over the world 107 00:07:23.580 --> 00:07:25.680 are isolated and there's very little communication 108 00:07:26.760 --> 00:07:30.620 beyond borders or across borders relative to justice 109 00:07:30.620 --> 00:07:35.400 and the role of national courts in maintaining peace and security 110 00:07:35.400 --> 00:07:38.480 not just within states but beyond states. 111 00:07:38.780 --> 00:07:41.060 And I would suggest that the universal jurisdiction 112 00:07:41.580 --> 00:07:44.060 or the notion of universal jurisdiction is one vehicle, 113 00:07:44.180 --> 00:07:48.020 one weapon of facilitating the peace agenda 114 00:07:48.580 --> 00:07:52.000 and the new ways that we start to begin to talk about peace. 115 00:07:52.660 --> 00:07:53.560 What is universal? 116 00:07:53.560 --> 00:07:54.320 What is universal jurisdiction? 117 00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:58.500 The basic notion around universal jurisdiction 118 00:07:58.500 --> 00:08:02.700 is that it's jurisdiction based solely on the type of crime. 119 00:08:03.880 --> 00:08:06.600 Traditionally, courts have jurisdiction 120 00:08:06.600 --> 00:08:09.280 because an offense was committed within its borders, 121 00:08:09.660 --> 00:08:12.720 it was committed by one of its nationals, 122 00:08:12.800 --> 00:08:16.180 or was committed against its interests, national interests. 123 00:08:16.540 --> 00:08:18.820 But there's a growing feeling, 124 00:08:18.940 --> 00:08:21.720 there's a growing body of people who are saying 125 00:08:21.720 --> 00:08:24.340 that jurisdiction cannot be limited to that. 126 00:08:24.580 --> 00:08:27.300 And the idea is a center to the principle 127 00:08:27.300 --> 00:08:30.340 behind the access of universal jurisdiction. 128 00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:33.880 The idea that some crimes are so heinous, so grave, 129 00:08:34.180 --> 00:08:36.640 that they offend not just against the people 130 00:08:36.640 --> 00:08:38.600 who are directly affected by the crime, 131 00:08:38.660 --> 00:08:41.100 but they offend against our sense of humanity, 132 00:08:41.400 --> 00:08:43.940 against the whole of the human race. 133 00:08:44.120 --> 00:08:48.180 And that as a result, we ought to take a greater interest in that 134 00:08:48.180 --> 00:08:50.860 and not say it did not happen within my borders. 135 00:08:55.620 --> 00:08:59.440 Sometimes the work of the twin tribunals, 136 00:08:59.480 --> 00:09:02.840 that is the International Criminal Tribunal 137 00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:04.280 on the former Yugoslavia 138 00:09:04.280 --> 00:09:07.300 and the International Criminal Tribunal of Rwanda, for example, 139 00:09:07.300 --> 00:09:09.060 or even the Nuremberg Tribunals, 140 00:09:09.140 --> 00:09:13.420 are misunderstood as representing the exercise of universal jurisdiction. 141 00:09:13.740 --> 00:09:16.680 But that is not so, because the jurisdictions of those courts 142 00:09:16.680 --> 00:09:21.520 are limited in scope in terms of the acts that constitute them. 143 00:09:21.720 --> 00:09:25.640 So that the former, for example, the Rwanda Tribunal 144 00:09:25.640 --> 00:09:30.440 looks only at crimes against humanity, 145 00:09:30.500 --> 00:09:36.240 genocide, crimes against war crimes committed within Rwanda. 146 00:09:37.340 --> 00:09:40.040 And even then within a limited period. 147 00:09:40.400 --> 00:09:42.500 And sometimes, for example, the ICC, 148 00:09:42.520 --> 00:09:46.280 the International Criminal Court, that was just recently been established, 149 00:09:46.520 --> 00:09:49.380 has seen us accessing universal jurisdiction. 150 00:09:49.500 --> 00:09:51.140 But really, to be speaking, it is not so, 151 00:09:51.140 --> 00:09:53.300 because again, the mandate of that court 152 00:09:53.300 --> 00:09:57.260 is dictated also on who are the members, 153 00:09:57.460 --> 00:09:59.660 or member states who actually have ratified 154 00:09:59.660 --> 00:10:01.640 or acceded to that particular court. 155 00:10:02.700 --> 00:10:07.340 But the idea behind universal jurisdiction 156 00:10:07.340 --> 00:10:11.300 is that a court in Botswana should be able to prosecute 157 00:10:11.300 --> 00:10:14.480 a crime that was committed, for example, in Uganda 158 00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:16.160 or for example in the United States, 159 00:10:16.280 --> 00:10:20.480 if the nature of that particular crime is such that 160 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:24.320 it offends against humanity as a whole. 161 00:10:25.040 --> 00:10:27.420 What has motivated this recent development? 162 00:10:27.740 --> 00:10:30.560 Or this renewed interest, because it's an old development, 163 00:10:30.780 --> 00:10:33.900 but what has renewed interest in this new concept, 164 00:10:33.960 --> 00:10:36.500 or this concept, it's not old, it's not new, it's old, 165 00:10:36.600 --> 00:10:37.860 the concept of universal jurisdiction? 166 00:10:38.160 --> 00:10:41.220 I think it's been realized that even as we speak today, 167 00:10:41.280 --> 00:10:43.840 more than 50 conflicts are raging all over the world. 168 00:10:44.040 --> 00:10:45.460 I think the UN put it at 54, 169 00:10:45.700 --> 00:10:48.560 at least 54 conflicts in the world are going on right now. 170 00:10:48.860 --> 00:10:50.320 Somebody, somewhere, perpetrates, 171 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:53.340 perpetrating gross human rights abuse against populations 172 00:10:53.340 --> 00:10:57.460 and nobody, the world seems to be helpless to do anything about it. 173 00:10:58.220 --> 00:11:03.740 I think there's also a realization that past or post-colonialism 174 00:11:03.740 --> 00:11:07.300 in Africa, you know, and other third world countries, 175 00:11:07.380 --> 00:11:13.300 the developing countries, past or, you know, post the Cold War, 176 00:11:14.540 --> 00:11:17.480 there's fragmentation of societies all over the world. 177 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:19.880 They have been based on weak foundations, 178 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:22.220 they've been based on unsustainable foundations. 179 00:11:23.380 --> 00:11:26.500 The cohesions, you know, were based on something that 180 00:11:27.420 --> 00:11:30.380 was not sustainable beyond the Cold War. 181 00:11:30.640 --> 00:11:33.340 And I'd like to suggest actually that the Cold War that the West talks about 182 00:11:33.340 --> 00:11:35.500 was not so cold in many of these countries. 183 00:11:35.780 --> 00:11:38.000 In Southern Africa, for example, it was very, very hot, 184 00:11:38.120 --> 00:11:42.760 because I think it was, you know, what is happening in the DRC, 185 00:11:42.820 --> 00:11:44.560 for example, right now, what happened in Mozambique, 186 00:11:44.560 --> 00:11:46.480 what happened in South Africa, what happened in Zimbabwe, 187 00:11:46.620 --> 00:11:49.380 was very much the result of what was called the Cold War. 188 00:11:49.380 --> 00:11:50.460 It was not so cold in Southern Africa. 189 00:11:50.460 --> 00:11:51.300 I can tell you that. 190 00:11:51.520 --> 00:11:58.000 And the realization that now that the cohesions that were, 191 00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:01.100 you know, these artificial cohesions that were created by the Cold War, 192 00:12:01.100 --> 00:12:07.900 the colonialism, are disintegrating, and there's a need for a new agenda 193 00:12:08.460 --> 00:12:11.540 to actually promote cohesions in those areas. 194 00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:15.680 I think there's also the fact that warlords, you know, 195 00:12:15.680 --> 00:12:20.180 are holding whole communities and states to ransom. 196 00:12:20.180 --> 00:12:22.800 In many countries in the world, Sudan comes to mind, 197 00:12:22.920 --> 00:12:26.220 and Afghanistan comes to mind, 198 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:31.220 that pockets of people with some military might 199 00:12:31.220 --> 00:12:33.740 who've been supported by agents from outside 200 00:12:33.740 --> 00:12:36.800 are able to hold whole communities to ransom 201 00:12:36.800 --> 00:12:42.540 with very, very little recourse to the law, with impunity. 202 00:12:43.300 --> 00:12:46.440 And there's a growing sense that this cannot be, 203 00:12:46.580 --> 00:12:50.160 that there is a need for action at the now, 204 00:12:50.160 --> 00:12:52.440 at the national level, in a way that is, 205 00:12:53.160 --> 00:12:55.080 has got results at the international level. 206 00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:01.820 What has been the recent developments around this issue? 207 00:13:08.520 --> 00:13:12.840 There's a growing sense that, like I say, 208 00:13:12.940 --> 00:13:16.380 that there's a need for national courts to be involved, 209 00:13:16.680 --> 00:13:19.980 not just within the insular of the national, 210 00:13:20.160 --> 00:13:23.260 but they should have a more international scope in operation. 211 00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:27.380 And there's also been a recognition 212 00:13:27.380 --> 00:13:29.640 that there's a very little understanding, you know, 213 00:13:29.640 --> 00:13:31.080 of the concept of universal jurisdiction. 214 00:13:31.740 --> 00:13:37.880 And these two main reasons have led to three different organizations 215 00:13:37.880 --> 00:13:41.320 acting almost independently to come up with principles 216 00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:46.700 around universal jurisdiction for war crimes 217 00:13:46.700 --> 00:13:50.140 and wars against, you know, peace, wars against, I mean, crimes against war. 218 00:13:50.140 --> 00:13:52.100 Crimes against peace and crimes against humanity. 219 00:13:52.500 --> 00:13:55.140 One such effort was by Amnesty International, 220 00:13:56.140 --> 00:13:59.380 which in 1999, I think, was the first of the three efforts. 221 00:13:59.540 --> 00:14:02.700 In 1999, it came up with the Amnesty International 14 principles 222 00:14:02.700 --> 00:14:06.300 on the effective exercise of universal jurisdiction. 223 00:14:06.880 --> 00:14:13.240 It lays down some of the principles that Amnesty sees 224 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:16.260 as the main guiding principles in this exercise. 225 00:14:16.900 --> 00:14:19.080 The second effort was by the, 226 00:14:19.080 --> 00:14:23.160 by Princeton, a group that met in Princeton University in the United States, 227 00:14:23.340 --> 00:14:26.960 and they developed what they called the Princeton Principles 228 00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:28.360 on Universal Jurisdiction. 229 00:14:28.660 --> 00:14:32.240 The third effort was by a group that I'm a part of, 230 00:14:32.360 --> 00:14:35.900 which developed in 2002, the Princeton Principles were in 2001, 231 00:14:36.560 --> 00:14:40.060 a set of principles that we called the Cairo-Arusha Principles 232 00:14:40.060 --> 00:14:43.820 on Universal Jurisdiction in Respect of Gross Human Rights Offenses 233 00:14:43.820 --> 00:14:45.580 and African Perspective. 234 00:14:46.900 --> 00:14:48.860 The purpose of these principles, 235 00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:53.740 were one, really to restate the principles on the subject, 236 00:14:53.980 --> 00:14:56.380 two, to assist governments and lobbyists, 237 00:14:57.080 --> 00:14:59.980 to assist governments in exercising their powers and their obligations, 238 00:15:00.100 --> 00:15:04.920 and for lobbyists to further understand the new developments, 239 00:15:04.980 --> 00:15:10.620 and three, really to contribute to progressive development of international law. 240 00:15:10.740 --> 00:15:15.280 The realization was that the concept was very much not understood, 241 00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:18.900 and that jurisprudence on the issue is very disparate, 242 00:15:18.900 --> 00:15:23.840 and that there is a new need to begin to discuss this. 243 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:26.780 And this energy also came around, 244 00:15:27.880 --> 00:15:33.700 the energy that, probably was as a result of the energy that came to the formation of the ICC, 245 00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:36.380 the International Criminal Court, 246 00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:45.740 the growing idea that justice is one of the main vehicles to securing peace and security in the world. 247 00:15:46.120 --> 00:15:47.560 Just very, very briefly, 248 00:15:48.640 --> 00:15:52.340 to say that while the three bodies, 249 00:15:52.640 --> 00:15:54.660 the three, Amnesty International, the principal group, 250 00:15:54.900 --> 00:15:58.940 the Princeton group, and the Arusha Cairo group, 251 00:15:59.060 --> 00:16:01.360 they agree on many fundamentals. 252 00:16:01.880 --> 00:16:05.680 What comes out as particularly different for the African group, 253 00:16:05.800 --> 00:16:10.380 was the suggestion that perhaps the definition of gross human rights offenses 254 00:16:10.380 --> 00:16:14.660 should be extended just beyond the traditional ones of genocide, 255 00:16:15.020 --> 00:16:16.940 war crimes, crimes against humanity, 256 00:16:16.940 --> 00:16:17.800 crimes of aggression. 257 00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:22.560 But actually to begin to talk about some of the, 258 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:29.060 to include in this list economic and social and cultural crimes, 259 00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:35.340 or crimes that actually affect the economies and cultures. 260 00:16:35.520 --> 00:16:37.220 And the reason for this was that, 261 00:16:38.740 --> 00:16:40.280 there was a suggestion that, 262 00:16:40.520 --> 00:16:41.820 for example in Africa, 263 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:46.480 if we have a head of state who's going to serve the whole country's budget, 264 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:47.440 to a Swiss bank, 265 00:16:47.720 --> 00:16:50.140 and as a result there's poverty, 266 00:16:50.220 --> 00:16:51.180 as a result there's low education, 267 00:16:51.300 --> 00:16:52.880 as a result people die of AIDS, 268 00:16:53.080 --> 00:16:56.960 are they any less liable for the deaths of those people 269 00:16:56.960 --> 00:17:00.160 than somebody who comes and guns them down? 270 00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:03.500 There was a suggestion that perhaps we should begin to think outside the box, 271 00:17:03.620 --> 00:17:06.700 and see that sometimes crimes are committed, 272 00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:10.900 not through direct killings. 273 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:15.500 And there was a lot of discussion against, 274 00:17:15.500 --> 00:17:17.800 around the issue of apartheid for example, 275 00:17:17.800 --> 00:17:19.340 and whether or not that is, 276 00:17:19.460 --> 00:17:20.340 should be included, 277 00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:20.880 you know, 278 00:17:20.900 --> 00:17:21.120 under, 279 00:17:21.260 --> 00:17:26.320 as one of the types of offenses that should be subjected to, 280 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:28.160 subject to universal jurisdiction. 281 00:17:29.780 --> 00:17:31.300 And also the Arusha, 282 00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:36.300 the Kaira Arusha principles also specifically stipulated that, 283 00:17:37.360 --> 00:17:37.800 perpetrators, 284 00:17:37.880 --> 00:17:39.500 when you define who's a perpetrator, 285 00:17:39.540 --> 00:17:40.480 it's not just the head of government, 286 00:17:40.580 --> 00:17:41.120 it's not just, 287 00:17:41.120 --> 00:17:41.420 you know, 288 00:17:41.420 --> 00:17:42.200 the head of the army, 289 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:44.280 it's not just the individuals, 290 00:17:44.280 --> 00:17:48.660 but also that non-natural persons, 291 00:17:48.760 --> 00:17:49.400 juridical persons, 292 00:17:49.480 --> 00:17:50.600 corporations for example, 293 00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:51.220 you know, 294 00:17:51.260 --> 00:17:53.140 ought also to be subject to, 295 00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:56.760 to be a potential perpetrators, 296 00:17:56.800 --> 00:17:57.380 you know, 297 00:17:57.400 --> 00:17:59.860 of crimes against humanity, 298 00:17:59.860 --> 00:18:00.800 or these sort of crimes. 299 00:18:00.980 --> 00:18:02.580 And the idea here was that, 300 00:18:02.660 --> 00:18:02.840 I mean, 301 00:18:02.860 --> 00:18:04.720 if you look at Africa for example, 302 00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:05.440 or the many, 303 00:18:05.560 --> 00:18:07.500 the many war laws that we talk about, 304 00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:07.920 you know, 305 00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:09.060 who is arming them? 306 00:18:09.560 --> 00:18:10.280 You know, 307 00:18:10.280 --> 00:18:10.900 and how, 308 00:18:11.760 --> 00:18:12.920 where is there a, 309 00:18:12.920 --> 00:18:19.260 a disconnect between seeing who is actually behind the arming of these, 310 00:18:19.260 --> 00:18:20.980 these groups that actually do hold, 311 00:18:21.020 --> 00:18:21.900 hold communities to ransom, 312 00:18:22.080 --> 00:18:23.640 and only concentrate on them? 313 00:18:23.740 --> 00:18:23.840 And, 314 00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:26.060 and that perhaps the, 315 00:18:27.380 --> 00:18:29.340 the people who actually do sell arms, 316 00:18:29.480 --> 00:18:29.760 you know, 317 00:18:29.800 --> 00:18:31.420 ought to be also accountable to what, 318 00:18:31.460 --> 00:18:32.560 who they sell the arms to. 319 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:33.140 I mean, 320 00:18:33.180 --> 00:18:33.840 recently, 321 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:35.280 I don't know if you know this, 322 00:18:35.360 --> 00:18:36.040 two years, 323 00:18:36.080 --> 00:18:38.160 my country depends on diamonds. 324 00:18:38.300 --> 00:18:40.540 That's the main state of the country. 325 00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:42.900 The main revenue in arms. 326 00:18:42.900 --> 00:18:44.140 And about three years ago, 327 00:18:44.180 --> 00:18:47.800 there was a lot of panic because of this talk about war diamonds, 328 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:48.580 or blood diamonds. 329 00:18:48.820 --> 00:18:49.620 And they are blood diamonds. 330 00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:50.620 There's no doubt about that. 331 00:18:51.480 --> 00:18:51.940 And, 332 00:18:51.940 --> 00:18:52.300 and, 333 00:18:52.900 --> 00:18:53.100 and, 334 00:18:53.100 --> 00:18:56.540 potentially our economy could collapse if people decide not to buy diamonds, 335 00:18:56.600 --> 00:18:58.380 because they believe that they are supporting wars. 336 00:18:58.540 --> 00:18:58.920 And of course, 337 00:18:58.940 --> 00:19:03.080 there was a lot of work around assuring the international community that we have no wars 338 00:19:03.080 --> 00:19:03.720 in our country, 339 00:19:03.800 --> 00:19:07.580 and that our diamonds are actually development diamonds and not war diamonds. 340 00:19:08.180 --> 00:19:09.440 And I remember seeing, 341 00:19:09.560 --> 00:19:09.880 you know, 342 00:19:09.880 --> 00:19:10.860 a Newsweek article, 343 00:19:11.540 --> 00:19:12.760 huge front page, 344 00:19:12.760 --> 00:19:16.960 about all the countries where the blood diamonds come from. 345 00:19:17.140 --> 00:19:17.600 And, 346 00:19:17.700 --> 00:19:17.980 you know, 347 00:19:18.020 --> 00:19:19.320 how they are used to buy arms. 348 00:19:19.900 --> 00:19:22.480 But there was no comment at all as to who is, 349 00:19:22.600 --> 00:19:23.940 who they are buying the arms from, 350 00:19:24.040 --> 00:19:24.820 at all. 351 00:19:25.120 --> 00:19:25.840 It was almost, 352 00:19:26.040 --> 00:19:28.540 you had all this whole big article about who is, 353 00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:28.880 you know, 354 00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:30.640 but there was no comment at all. 355 00:19:30.700 --> 00:19:31.580 And we know, 356 00:19:32.360 --> 00:19:33.040 you know, 357 00:19:33.620 --> 00:19:36.040 who is selling the arms to these, 358 00:19:36.120 --> 00:19:37.000 these countries. 359 00:19:37.600 --> 00:19:38.920 But there seems to be a disconnect. 360 00:19:39.260 --> 00:19:41.680 I think it's easier to track the arms, 361 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:42.780 than to track the diamonds. 362 00:19:43.800 --> 00:19:44.640 It should be. 363 00:19:44.820 --> 00:19:45.760 But somehow, 364 00:19:46.760 --> 00:19:48.240 and if you are suggesting, 365 00:19:48.300 --> 00:19:48.620 for example, 366 00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:49.700 as Wolfson suggests that, 367 00:19:50.540 --> 00:19:51.260 you know, 368 00:19:51.760 --> 00:19:54.200 governments ought to be able to control, 369 00:19:57.380 --> 00:19:59.320 sales in their own countries, 370 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:00.300 that perpetrate, 371 00:20:00.320 --> 00:20:00.680 for example, 372 00:20:00.760 --> 00:20:01.220 terrorism. 373 00:20:02.060 --> 00:20:02.540 Governments, 374 00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:03.740 big governments, 375 00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:07.840 ought to be able to control big corporations in our own countries that sell arms, 376 00:20:07.980 --> 00:20:10.920 and devastate whole communities in developing countries. 377 00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:12.240 But there seems to be the disconnect. 378 00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:18.160 One of the issues also is about immunities. 379 00:20:18.380 --> 00:20:20.100 That's one issue that really came, 380 00:20:20.120 --> 00:20:21.780 comes out across from Amnesty International, 381 00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:23.720 from the Princeton Principles, 382 00:20:23.760 --> 00:20:25.620 and the Arusha-Kairo Principles. 383 00:20:26.300 --> 00:20:26.900 The whole, 384 00:20:27.040 --> 00:20:27.600 traditionally, 385 00:20:28.180 --> 00:20:29.880 heads of governments are immune, 386 00:20:30.140 --> 00:20:30.680 you know, 387 00:20:30.700 --> 00:20:32.500 from what they do when they are in government. 388 00:20:32.660 --> 00:20:33.580 And there's a growing sense that, 389 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:33.900 no, 390 00:20:34.120 --> 00:20:34.700 if a, 391 00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:36.380 very often they are the main perpetrators. 392 00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:36.840 If you immune, 393 00:20:37.040 --> 00:20:39.780 then you might as well forget about, 394 00:20:39.780 --> 00:20:40.260 you know, 395 00:20:40.260 --> 00:20:41.660 hoping to get justice for anybody. 396 00:20:42.120 --> 00:20:42.640 And, 397 00:20:42.740 --> 00:20:43.400 of course, 398 00:20:43.940 --> 00:20:45.380 the Pinochet case, 399 00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:45.720 you know, 400 00:20:45.780 --> 00:20:47.640 and the decision by the House of Lords, 401 00:20:47.760 --> 00:20:48.780