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<v Chair>Welcome to the session on crime and punishment. My name is Andrew Goldsmith from Flinders University.

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<v Chair>I've been asked to chair the panel today. What I propose is that each speaker in turn speak for

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<v Chair>eight to ten minutes. I'll introduce each speaker in sequence. We'll start with John Braithwaite

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<v Chair>and leave time for questions at the end. Now I'm told that I have to be very strict about questions

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<v Chair>so I ask you to, if you do come to one of the microphones in the middle aisle to ask questions

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<v Chair>at the end, that you make them brief. And I know you often hear this plea made by people in my

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<v Chair>position and it's frequently ignored. I'm told I can be tough and don't be frightened to interrupt

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<v Chair>people so I'll try and be firm but fair in your questions today. I just want to start with a few

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<v Chair>comments. I'm going to start with a few comments from the audience. I'm going to start with a few

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<v Chair>comments about the theme of crime and punishment. And before I hand it over to John Braithwaite.

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<v Chair>Crime of course is a topic which is widely talked about. It's widely experienced directly or

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<v Chair>indirectly. It's something that people have opinions about and it can evoke a lot of strong

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<v Chair>feeling. In South Australia here, the Australian Bureau of Statistics survey 2000 tells us that

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<v Chair>one in ten households in a 12-month period will be in a state of mental illness. And that's a

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<v Chair>victim of a household crime, meaning a break-in, attempted break-in or vehicle theft. And about

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<v Chair>one in 20 South Australians in a 12-month period will be the victim of what is called a personal

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<v Chair>crime. A personal crime being robbery or assault. So these figures are not insignificant and as I

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<v Chair>say they do generate a lot of public interest which is evidenced by your presence today.

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<v Chair>It's easiest I think to start a session like this by starting with the concept of fear.

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<v Chair>And perhaps we can move to hope as we go through the speaker's presentations and the questions.

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<v Chair>In particular the fear of crime. And the individual's fear of crime is a phenomenon

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<v Chair>that's been globally measured and verified in national and international studies. It points

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<v Chair>us to an important area of human vulnerability, one that we can see increasingly being commercialised

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<v Chair>through the sale of safety products, private security and so on. It's been increasingly

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<v Chair>politicised. It's been increasingly used as a means of

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<v Chair>protection by political parties of both sides of the spectrum. If we can still speak of a spectrum

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<v Chair>in the old ways we used to. You know slogans on tough on crime, the same slogans that Tony Blair

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<v Chair>uses in Britain can be heard here in South Australia. There's a kind of currency of toughness of

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<v Chair>crime that reflects this politicisation. It's also being personalised. People are being asked to

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<v Chair>take more responsibility for their safety. To buy products, to watch out, look over their shoulders,

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<v Chair>to report on their neighbours and so on.

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<v Chair>So this phenomenon of fear of crime is widespread, it's volatile, and in my view not always particularly

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<v Chair>well informed by evidence, including objective assessment of risk. Sometimes those with most

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<v Chair>fear are least concerned, and those who are most fearful, in fact, have the least concern

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<v Chair>to be fearful of crime. So it's not well distributed, the fear of crime. Today, I hope that our

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<v Chair>speakers can help to make some sense of this phenomenon.

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<v Chair>of the fear of crime in the context of the other things that we discuss,

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<v Chair>as well as helping us think about what we can do as a society

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<v Chair>in responding to these concerns.

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<v Chair>Our speakers today have a variety of personal and professional commitments

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<v Chair>and interests in areas relevant to today's theme.

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<v Chair>Father Frank Brennan, on your extreme right,

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<v Chair>has a long-standing interest in the historical treatment

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<v Chair>of Indigenous Australians by White Australia.

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<v Chair>John Braithwaite, in the middle, has a deep interest in developing new ways

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<v Chair>of doing justice that are less destructive to individuals

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<v Chair>and that help to build community.

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<v Chair>And Eric Olin-Wright, on the far left,

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<v Chair>which probably is quite comfortable for you, Eric, I'm not sure,

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<v Chair>but as a Marxist, I think I can say that he proudly wears that badge,

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<v Chair>has a long-standing interest in notions of social inequality, class conflict,

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<v Chair>and is involved in projects,

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<v Chair>attempts to develop and develop new ways of dealing with the world.

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<v Chair>He's attempting to make capitalism less harmful in a variety of ways.

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<v Chair>But I hope in each speaker's case responding today to this theme

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<v Chair>that we can take seriously the current climate

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<v Chair>of what some people call penal populism,

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<v Chair>this exploitation of fear of crime,

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<v Chair>the playing upon it for political advantage by political parties,

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<v Chair>and not just see it as false consciousness,

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<v Chair>but as a real phenomenon that we need to respond to

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<v Chair>if we are to take crime seriously.

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<v Chair>And punishment as well.

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<v Chair>So I think from a practical point of view,

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<v Chair>it would be a mistake to just brush off that problem

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<v Chair>or that issue of penal populism.

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<v Chair>So we need new directions in policy,

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<v Chair>but we also, I think, need some practical means

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<v Chair>of reassuring people who are concerned about crime.

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<v Chair>I see that as part of the challenge that we might talk about today

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<v Chair>if we are to reach the goal of a hopeful,

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<v Chair>more compassionate criminal justice system.

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<v Chair>Well, that's all I want to say.

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<v Chair>I'll now call on...

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<v Chair>Professor John Braithwaite from the Australian National University

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<v Chair>to talk to you.

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<v Chair>John Braithwaite is a Federation Fellow

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<v Chair>recognised by the Australian Research Council

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<v Chair>and the Australian Government

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<v Chair>as a major contributor to the field of criminology in Australia.

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<v Chair>He has made a major investment in the issue of restorative justice

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<v Chair>and I'm very pleased to welcome him here to the stage today.

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<v Chair>Thank you.

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<v Chair>APPLAUSE

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<v John Braithwaite>!

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<v John Braithwaite>Thanks, Andrew.

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<v John Braithwaite>It's great to be here in Adelaide,

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<v John Braithwaite>which has been a font of so many progressive ideas

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<v John Braithwaite>on crime and punishment

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<v John Braithwaite>and to be at this wonderfully provocative event

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<v John Braithwaite>of a festival of ideas.

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<v John Braithwaite>So I'll try to provoke.

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<v John Braithwaite>Australians, as Andrew said,

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<v John Braithwaite>are rather punitive about crime

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<v John Braithwaite>and that is about fear.

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<v John Braithwaite>That fear is of a piece

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<v John Braithwaite>with the fear of crime.

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<v John Braithwaite>The fear Australians have of asylum seekers

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<v John Braithwaite>and it's...

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<v John Braithwaite>Some of the causes are, I guess, the same.

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<v John Braithwaite>A media and politicians

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<v John Braithwaite>who exploit that fear of the other

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<v John Braithwaite>to achieve political purposes

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<v John Braithwaite>or purposes of selling their media products.

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<v John Braithwaite>Well, what explains crime?

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<v John Braithwaite>A lot of things.

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<v John Braithwaite>I'm just going to go for eight minutes.

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<v John Braithwaite>Long-term unemployment is one.

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<v John Braithwaite>One of...

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<v John Braithwaite>Eric's concerned,

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<v John Braithwaite>someone who works on class.

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<v John Braithwaite>Long-term unemployment as an explanation of crime,

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<v John Braithwaite>that's about hope

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<v John Braithwaite>as opposed to fear or hopelessness.

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<v John Braithwaite>If you measure unemployment in general

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<v John Braithwaite>and look at the relationship

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<v John Braithwaite>between the unemployment rate

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<v John Braithwaite>and the crime rate,

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<v John Braithwaite>you actually don't find a relationship

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<v John Braithwaite>much of the time.

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<v John Braithwaite>It's not short-term unemployment.

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<v John Braithwaite>It's long-term unemployment

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<v John Braithwaite>that...

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<v John Braithwaite>That's predictive of crime.

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<v John Braithwaite>That is to say,

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<v John Braithwaite>trying and failing to get those jobs

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<v John Braithwaite>over an extended period of time.

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<v John Braithwaite>That's connected to people giving up on their future

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<v John Braithwaite>and more importantly still,

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<v John Braithwaite>in terms of crime,

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<v John Braithwaite>giving up on the future of their children.

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<v John Braithwaite>So long-term unemployment rolls over

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<v John Braithwaite>in its effects on crime

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<v John Braithwaite>to higher crime rates in the next generation.

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<v John Braithwaite>One day,

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<v John Braithwaite>I hope,

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<v John Braithwaite>we'll have a political leader in this country

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<v John Braithwaite>who will come to us in an election and say,

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<v John Braithwaite>why do we have to have long-term unemployment?

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<v John Braithwaite>We've certainly got to have frictional unemployment

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<v John Braithwaite>as we have this world of constant labour market restructuring

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<v John Braithwaite>so people throughout their lives

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<v John Braithwaite>have to move into different kinds of jobs.

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<v John Braithwaite>But do we really have to have long-term unemployment?

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<v John Braithwaite>And is it beyond the wit and the wealth

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<v John Braithwaite>of a country such as Australia,

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<v John Braithwaite>ours,

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<v John Braithwaite>to make the investment

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<v John Braithwaite>so that anyone who loses a job

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<v John Braithwaite>goes into a labour market program

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<v John Braithwaite>or is assisted in ways that work

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<v John Braithwaite>and are evaluated in an evidence-based way

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<v John Braithwaite>to eliminate long-term unemployment?

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<v John Braithwaite>I'm an optimist that one day

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<v John Braithwaite>we will have the wit to do that

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<v John Braithwaite>and when it does happen,

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<v John Braithwaite>we will have considerably less crime as a result.

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<v John Braithwaite>We know actually quite a lot about how to reduce crime

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<v John Braithwaite>and we can do it at much lower costs

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<v John Braithwaite>than the policies we're pursuing at the moment

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<v John Braithwaite>of building more prisons and so on.

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<v John Braithwaite>If I were to do a survey in this room,

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<v John Braithwaite>give you our questionnaires and ask them to fill them out

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<v John Braithwaite>about various activities that you've engaged in

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<v John Braithwaite>and were to ask you if you'd engaged in a variety of different kinds of welfare fraud,

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<v John Braithwaite>very few of you would tick the boxes

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<v John Braithwaite>that indicated that you have engaged in welfare fraud.

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<v John Braithwaite>If I also included in that survey questions

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<v John Braithwaite>on a variety of kinds of tax evasions,

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<v John Braithwaite>different ways of not recording cash income,

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<v John Braithwaite>of exaggerating tax deductions and so on,

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<v John Braithwaite>more than half of you would admit on that survey last year

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<v John Braithwaite>to having done at least one of those kinds of tax evasion.

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<v John Braithwaite>I'm not talking about tax avoidance here.

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<v John Braithwaite>I am talking about tax evasion.

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<v John Braithwaite>Now, they'll mostly be pretty minor things,

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<v John Braithwaite>but the point I'm wanting to make, I want to just argue,

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<v John Braithwaite>I want to just assert,

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<v John Braithwaite>without really making the case,

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<v John Braithwaite>that that difference is because we actually do have a lot more tax evasion

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<v John Braithwaite>that goes on in our society than welfare fraud,

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<v John Braithwaite>notwithstanding the fact that Australians are pretty good at tax compliance

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<v John Braithwaite>compared with other countries.

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<v John Braithwaite>Most of us pay, you know, declare the right thing on our tax return

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<v John Braithwaite>most of the time.

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<v John Braithwaite>Secondly, it's true that while most of the things

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<v John Braithwaite>that you would fill in on my survey,

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<v John Braithwaite>which we've done in our research group,

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<v John Braithwaite>which is why I know that half will be realistic

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<v John Braithwaite>and the males will be worse than the females,

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<v John Braithwaite>and I'm sorry, Frank, but the lawyers will be worse than the non-lawyers,

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<v John Braithwaite>and so on,

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<v John Braithwaite>they'll be mostly pretty minor stuff,

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<v John Braithwaite>but we also know that compared with welfare fraud,

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<v John Braithwaite>the most serious types of tax evasions go to much, much larger amounts of money.

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<v John Braithwaite>So the worst kinds of welfare frauds,

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<v John Braithwaite>we're talking about hundreds of thousands,

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<v John Braithwaite>thousands of dollars.

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<v John Braithwaite>The worst kind of tax frauds,

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<v John Braithwaite>we're talking about a thousand times that,

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<v John Braithwaite>hundreds of millions of dollars.

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<v John Braithwaite>But then if we look at what the Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecution does,

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<v John Braithwaite>we find very few tax cases,

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<v John Braithwaite>large corporate tax cases,

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<v John Braithwaite>we can count on the fingers of one hand,

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<v John Braithwaite>and in some years we don't need any fingers at all to count them,

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<v John Braithwaite>and we find that half of those prosecutions are for welfare fraud.

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<v John Braithwaite>So,

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<v John Braithwaite>we have a problem with this fiction about our criminal justice system

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<v John Braithwaite>that it's organised around the principle of equal punishment for equal wrongs.

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<v John Braithwaite>The alternative that I want to put out there is that,

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<v John Braithwaite>you know,

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<v John Braithwaite>we really need to abandon that guiding principle of our criminal justice system

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<v John Braithwaite>of equal punishment for equal wrongs in a rather fundamental way,

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<v John Braithwaite>and instead articulate the principle of equal concern for the justice claims,

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<v John Braithwaite>of all of the stakeholders in the crime.

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<v John Braithwaite>Equal concern for all of the justice claims of all of the stakeholders in the crime,

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<v John Braithwaite>be those stakeholders offenders, victims, or the community at large.

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<v John Braithwaite>And that radical re-articulation of criminal jurisprudence is a project

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<v John Braithwaite>which a large number of us now are working on around the world

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<v John Braithwaite>to develop a restorative justice jurisprudence for a crime.

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<v John Braithwaite>So,

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<v John Braithwaite>I'm not wanting,

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<v John Braithwaite>to actually advocate to bring the police in and putting half of you in the hall

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<v John Braithwaite>into handcuffs for those tax offences that unfortunately so many of you perpetrated last year,

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<v John Braithwaite>because actually there are much more effective ways of improving tax compliance

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<v John Braithwaite>than prosecuting criminally,

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<v John Braithwaite>two minutes,

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<v John Braithwaite>on a wide scale.

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<v John Braithwaite>If we were serious about equal punishment for equal wrongs,

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<v John Braithwaite>what would we do about that?

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<v John Braithwaite>We would do nothing but talk about the war crimes of John Howard.

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<v John Braithwaite>At the end of World War II,

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<v John Braithwaite>at the end of World War II,

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<v John Braithwaite>and Frank's wonderful father was actually one of the prosecutors,

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<v John Braithwaite>we Australians and Americans prosecuted many Japanese and military and political leaders for war crimes,

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<v John Braithwaite>including the crime of aggression,

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<v John Braithwaite>invading other countries that posed no direct threat to Japan.

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<v John Braithwaite>So,

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<v John Braithwaite>Prime Minister Tojo and many other Japanese leaders were hung.

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<v John Braithwaite>Should we follow the principle of...

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<v John Braithwaite>.

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<v John Braithwaite>.

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<v John Braithwaite>Adelaide people are so anticipatory,

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<v John Braithwaite>these Adelaide audiences are.

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<v John Braithwaite>Yeah, should we follow the principle of equal punishment for equal wrongs and hang John Howard?

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<v John Braithwaite>.

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<v John Braithwaite>I actually say no.

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<v John Braithwaite>Show him compassion.

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<v John Braithwaite>He has compassion and mercy.

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<v John Braithwaite>He does, after all, have an underlying addiction.

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<v John Braithwaite>He's addicted to telling lies and getting away with it.

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<v John Braithwaite>.

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<v John Braithwaite>.

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<v John Braithwaite>.

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<v John Braithwaite>.

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<v John Braithwaite>.

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<v John Braithwaite>.

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<v John Braithwaite>.

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<v John Braithwaite>.

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<v John Braithwaite>.

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<v John Braithwaite>.

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<v John Braithwaite>.

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<v John Braithwaite>.

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<v John Braithwaite>.

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<v John Braithwaite>.

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<v John Braithwaite>.

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<v John Braithwaite>.

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<v John Braithwaite>.

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<v Chair>.

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<v Chair>.

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<v Chair>.

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<v Chair>.

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<v Chair>.

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<v Chair>.

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<v Chair>.

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<v Chair>.

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<v Chair>.

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<v Chair>.

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<v Chair>.

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<v Chair>.

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<v Chair>.

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<v Chair>with Aboriginal issues, land rights.

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<v Chair>He's written about law and order in Queensland

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<v Chair>back in the deep, dark 70s and 80s,

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<v Chair>which I think was a fairly scary time and a scary place.

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<v Chair>And I was interested to see most recently, or fairly recently,

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<v Chair>he's come back from spending 18 months in East Timor

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<v Chair>and he's more recently been very interested in refugee issues

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<v Chair>and I gather, Frank, you've got a book coming out fairly soon on that topic.

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<v Chair>Frank Brennan.

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<v Chair>APPLAUSE

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<v Frank Brennan>Thanks for your welcome and it's good to be with you.

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<v Frank Brennan>I must apologise I'm new to the genre of Festival of Ideas,

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<v Frank Brennan>but I presume it's an invitation for us to publicly be a little more apprehensive

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<v Frank Brennan>and perhaps more in a quandary about some of the issues

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<v Frank Brennan>that we confront in our public lives.

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<v Frank Brennan>And it's in that spirit that I approach particularly the topic of crime and punishment

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<v Frank Brennan>because unlike John Braithwaite, I know next to nothing about it.

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<v Frank Brennan>I'd begin reflecting on Josie's welcome to us to Kaurna land last night.

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<v Frank Brennan>I'm one of those white fellows who normally doesn't go in for acknowledging these things

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<v Frank Brennan>unless it's first been done by an Aboriginal person.

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<v Frank Brennan>But when it has been done by an Aboriginal person,

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<v Frank Brennan>I think there's the possibility that all of us can enter into a deeper level of relationship and of dialogue.

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<v Frank Brennan>And I take that as the first quandary about crime and punishment.

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<v Frank Brennan>How is it that we do better bring the victim and the accused,

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<v Frank Brennan>and society together?

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<v Frank Brennan>And I think people like John Braithwaite have shown us the way to do that in some instances.

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<v Frank Brennan>One of the major quandaries I'd like to raise,

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<v Frank Brennan>a case I was involved in as a very young lawyer back in 1981,

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<v Frank Brennan>the Owen Peter case, just to very briefly summarise it.

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<v Frank Brennan>Owen, I suppose he's an older man now, but he was a young man who lived on the Mipoon Reserve

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<v Frank Brennan>near Weipa in Cape York back in those days.

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<v Frank Brennan>He had killed his woman.

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<v Frank Brennan>One night, as it was said, he'd been drinking.

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<v Frank Brennan>He came home, he wanted meat to eat.

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<v Frank Brennan>There was no meat available.

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<v Frank Brennan>And he ended up killing Deirdre Gilbert.

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<v Frank Brennan>It was the 15th such killing on Aboriginal reserves in three years in Queensland.

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<v Frank Brennan>It was found to be the highest homicide rate amongst any ghetto group in the Western world.

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<v Frank Brennan>Now, in that case, we tried to do a deal with the prosecution to reduce it from murder to manslaughter.

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<v Frank Brennan>But the deal couldn't be done.

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<v Frank Brennan>And so we had to look at a more flash defence because just straight drunkenness wasn't going to work, it seemed.

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<v Frank Brennan>And so a defence of diminished responsibility was looked at.

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<v Frank Brennan>We called every leading ologist in the country.

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<v Frank Brennan>We didn't call John Braithwaite because he wasn't quite on the scene at that stage, I don't think, on crime and punishment.

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<v Frank Brennan>But I remember people like Bill Stanner, the great anthropologist, who was a great inspiration to me.

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<v Frank Brennan>It was his last public performance.

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<v Frank Brennan>And people who came and gave evidence about his psychological death.

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<v Frank Brennan>His psychological state, his intelligence and all manner of things.

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<v Frank Brennan>In the end, we got quite a good result.

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<v Frank Brennan>He walked free after about two months.

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<v Frank Brennan>And I, as a young lawyer, felt pretty good about that as a result.

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<v Frank Brennan>And as a social justice campaigner, I also felt pretty good about it.

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<v Frank Brennan>Because I thought, here is a situation, people in our society who have been long being wronged with social situations

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<v Frank Brennan>and therefore the power of the state should not impact upon them as much as on others.

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<v Frank Brennan>And I remember then a white woman anthropologist fronting me one day and saying,

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<v Frank Brennan>well I see you had a good result in that case.

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<v Frank Brennan>I said, well from our point of view, yes it was.

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<v Frank Brennan>She said, you realise you've taken away the one remaining slight protection there was

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<v Frank Brennan>for Aboriginal women on remote Aboriginal communities.

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<v Frank Brennan>And how do you feel about that?

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<v Frank Brennan>Now of course people like Marcia Langton and Pat Dodson wrote at length about that then during the Royal Commission,

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<v Frank Brennan>which was many years ago.

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<v Frank Brennan>But of course none of it was heard.

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<v Frank Brennan>People are starting to hear it now.

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<v Frank Brennan>People like Noel Pearson and Mick Dodson have been speaking on these issues.

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<v Frank Brennan>But I'm wondering why it takes so long for a society like ours to register these questions.

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<v Frank Brennan>Because these are very difficult issues to me about crime and punishment.

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<v Frank Brennan>Another quandary I'd raise is the relationship between reconciliation, crime and punishment.

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<v Frank Brennan>Reconciliation, we're all very much in favour of it here in Australia.

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<v Frank Brennan>At least a few years ago.

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<v Frank Brennan>As you've heard I spent 18 months in East Timor.

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<v Frank Brennan>There was a lot of agitation there for setting up a reconciliation commission.

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<v Frank Brennan>I found myself in the strange situation where I was something of a critic of it.

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<v Frank Brennan>Because I thought you couldn't simply transpose a South African model for example into East Timor

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<v Frank Brennan>where you did not already have an existing court system which could deal with the prosecution of gross violators.

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<v Frank Brennan>And where the grossest violators were of course Indonesian citizens who would never be prosecuted.

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<v Frank Brennan>And where the next grossest set of violators were East Timorese leaders who held a hostage population in camps in West Timor.

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<v Frank Brennan>And where the wrestle or the struggle was the trade-off between trying to get their hostage populations settled back in East Timor

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<v Frank Brennan>over a period of time.

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<v Frank Brennan>Where they were against trade-offs for amnesties for not prosecuting.

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<v Frank Brennan>So then do you only prosecute the small fish and then do you dress this up under the guise of reconciliation

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<v Frank Brennan>and say well we can't afford anything more, particularly in terms of economic resources for defence lawyers and courts and that sort of thing.

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<v Frank Brennan>And so we call it a reconciliation process where basically the international community says we've done as well as we can

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<v Frank Brennan>so really the local population should be satisfied with these things.

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<v Frank Brennan>another great quandary that confronts me particularly as a church person back here in

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<v Frank Brennan>Australia is of course the whole question of sexual abuse and how we're dealing with that

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<v Frank Brennan>issue as a nation we know there have been casualties not just the victims we even saw a

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<v Frank Brennan>Governor General go recently but I still think as a community we're very much wrestling with coming

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<v Frank Brennan>to terms with this issue in terms of crime and punishment I was speaking at a big meeting in

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<v Frank Brennan>Townsville in North Queensland the other day and Sally Ann Atkinson who's a fairly accomplished

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<v Frank Brennan>public performer found herself in deep water because she had said that she knew some of the

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<v Frank Brennan>men who had been convicted of this heinous offence and she used visit them in prison and said some of

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<v Frank Brennan>them were quite good people and that set off a chain reaction in the audience and that's what

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<v Frank Brennan>happened and it required a very detailed discussion to follow on from that and I think in this whole

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<v Frank Brennan>area we've got very big questions about reconciliation about punishment about how we view

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<v Frank Brennan>the victims and how we view those who have perpetrated these offences and I think also

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<v Frank Brennan>there are big institutional questions particularly where churches for example can be seen to be

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<v Frank Brennan>hypocritical or hiding behind some sort of semblance of finding out what's going on in

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<v Frank Brennan>a few

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<v Frank Brennan>I'm thinking for example I come a lot across a lot of Australians at the moment who basically say

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<v Frank Brennan>well of course it would be very wrong for David Hicks to face the death penalty in the United

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<v Frank Brennan>States and almost in the same breath they could say that those bastards guilty of the Bali bombing

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<v Frank Brennan>should be hung drawn and quartered why because they've killed Australians and I think there is

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<v Frank Brennan>something interesting at play here that when we tap into our fairly primitive nationalism

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<v Frank Brennan>the thought that another power the United States would impose the death penalty fills us with

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<v Frank Brennan>repugnance but then when we think of people who have killed some of ours then the idea of the

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<v Frank Brennan>death penalty as revenge is seen to be something which is right and proper and I think being able

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<v Frank Brennan>to make that step from one side of the

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<v Frank Brennan>river to the other can be helpful in that regard. My final observation on crime and punishment would

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<v Frank Brennan>be coming out of monthly visits to places like Woomera and Baxter where we have now perfected

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<v Frank Brennan>a technique in Australia of punishing these people while at the same time saying that we're

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<v Frank Brennan>not punishing them and that is an even more cruel form of punishment than basically admitting that

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<v Frank Brennan>we are here to punish you but keeping up the pretence of the death penalty.

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<v Frank Brennan>Hence that we are not punishing you is really a disgrace and just think for a moment that wonderful

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<v Frank Brennan>line by our immigration minister Mr Ruddick the other day when he said if these children were to

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<v Frank Brennan>be released from detention it could be very unsettling for them. Now the proposition that he

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<v Frank Brennan>was challenging was this that a court a duly constituted family court said that it would have

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<v Frank Brennan>the power to punish those children who were in the prison and that is the case.

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<v Frank Brennan>Now the question is whether the court is in the best interest of the child that the child be released from immigration detention if and only if the parent of the child in detention requested that release into the hands of a person or organisation authorised by the relevant state authority as being able to care for that child.

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<v Frank Brennan>Now what are we doing in terms of punishment of those parents in having the state

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<v Frank Brennan>saying it could be unsettling for your child. This is punishment where there has been no crime.

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<v Chair>Thank you to Frank Brennan for expanding the scope of the concept of punishment today or perhaps crime as well.

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<v Chair>Thirdly but

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<v Chair>thirdly

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<v Chair>lastly but not least Eric Owen Wright I've already flagged that he is a Marxist. He's written extensively on class inequality. He's professor of sociology at the University of Wisconsin. His background educationally was at Harvard Oxford and then Berkeley California so he's cut his teeth I guess in the politics of Berkeley and at one point he was a intern chaplain at Sam Quentin prison which made me immediately think of Johnny Cash for some reason but I'm not going to go into that.

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<v Chair>He tells me he doesn't know Johnny Cash but he did produce a book nonetheless on the politics of punishment in 1973 based upon his experiences working in Sam Quentin prison in California. More recently and I think very interestingly for the concept of this festival ideas he's involved in a project called the real utopias project which explores a range of proposals for new institutional designs that embody emancipatory ideas and which are very interesting.

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<v Chair>So try to be pragmatic at the same time. Eric Owen Wright.

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<v Erik Olin Wright>You might wonder how it came to pass that I was a intern chaplain at Sam Quentin prison.

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<v Erik Olin Wright>During the Vietnam War in order to avoid being drafted I like many of my friends of the time faced a number of opportunities.

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00:27:16.220 --> 00:27:21.540
<v Erik Olin Wright>alternatives, fleeing the country, going to jail, or enrolling in a seminary.

413
00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:35.020
<v Erik Olin Wright>Enrollments at Unitarian seminaries skyrocketed, and the Unitarians had no compunction simply

414
00:27:35.020 --> 00:27:43.200
<v Erik Olin Wright>admitting everybody who applied. So we had huge cohorts of never-to-become Unitarian ministers.

415
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:51.080
<v Erik Olin Wright>But I did then spend a year as an intern chaplain at San Quentin, became very involved in the prison

416
00:27:51.080 --> 00:28:00.700
<v Erik Olin Wright>rights movement at the time, and used my access to prisoners and prison guards to essentially do a

417
00:28:00.700 --> 00:28:07.760
<v Erik Olin Wright>participant observation, ethnographic study of that prison in the early 1970s. The book that was

418
00:28:07.760 --> 00:28:12.780
<v Erik Olin Wright>published also has chapters by prisoners. I recruited prisoners to write about

419
00:28:12.780 --> 00:28:19.900
<v Erik Olin Wright>their experiences as well. But that was 30 years ago, and I haven't done anything in criminology

420
00:28:19.900 --> 00:28:29.280
<v Erik Olin Wright>or prison-related work in the intervening 30 years. As an invitee to this wonderful event,

421
00:28:29.540 --> 00:28:35.800
<v Erik Olin Wright>we were told that one of the ideas was to put people on panels who weren't especially experts

422
00:28:35.800 --> 00:28:42.120
<v Erik Olin Wright>but knew something about the topic. Because the theory went, often one can

423
00:28:42.780 --> 00:28:47.600
<v Erik Olin Wright>have more interesting things to say when you're less of an expert than when you are an expert,

424
00:28:47.760 --> 00:28:56.000
<v Erik Olin Wright>or some concocted rationale of that sort. Well, I am a card-carrying sociologist, and sociologists

425
00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:00.520
<v Erik Olin Wright>always have things to say about crime and punishment. So what I thought I would do is just

426
00:29:00.520 --> 00:29:07.920
<v Erik Olin Wright>briefly give you a series of general perspectives on questions of crime and punishment,

427
00:29:09.500 --> 00:29:12.120
<v Erik Olin Wright>most of which are pretty much sort of standard sociological

428
00:29:12.780 --> 00:29:17.060
<v Erik Olin Wright>wisdom on these matters. These will also be from the perspective of an American,

429
00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:24.240
<v Erik Olin Wright>a person who comes from the country with the highest rate of imprisonment of any country in the world.

430
00:29:26.060 --> 00:29:32.980
<v Erik Olin Wright>So first, a thesis. Broadly speaking, poor people do not commit more crimes than rich people.

431
00:29:34.700 --> 00:29:40.820
<v Erik Olin Wright>Uneducated people do not commit more crimes than educated people. What varies with economic status

432
00:29:40.820 --> 00:29:42.760
<v Erik Olin Wright>in education is the kind of crime that is committed by the people who are in the country.

433
00:29:42.780 --> 00:29:48.480
<v Erik Olin Wright>The kind of crimes people commit, not the likelihood of breaking the law. Rich people cheat on their

434
00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:53.320
<v Erik Olin Wright>taxes or steal from the companies in which they work. Poor people are more likely to steal from

435
00:29:53.320 --> 00:30:00.360
<v Erik Olin Wright>each other. The opportunities for what kinds of crimes a person can commit vary much more by social

436
00:30:00.360 --> 00:30:04.720
<v Erik Olin Wright>class than does the willingness of people to take advantage of those opportunities.

437
00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:12.760
<v Erik Olin Wright>A second point, related in some ways to the first. Poor people are not more likely to commit crimes than

438
00:30:12.760 --> 00:30:21.180
<v Erik Olin Wright>our middle class and rich people. Nor are they more likely to sell drugs than our middle class and rich people.

439
00:30:21.900 --> 00:30:27.840
<v Erik Olin Wright>They are more likely to sell drugs on the street rather than indoors, and thus they are more likely

440
00:30:27.840 --> 00:30:34.880
<v Erik Olin Wright>to be observed by others in the act of selling. And the kinds of drugs they sell may be different,

441
00:30:35.100 --> 00:30:38.260
<v Erik Olin Wright>but they are not more likely to be sellers of illegal drugs.

442
00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:42.740
<v Erik Olin Wright>A third general point.

443
00:30:42.760 --> 00:30:49.260
<v Erik Olin Wright>On the question of deterrence. This a a big issue in discussions in criminology. Does punishment

444
00:30:49.260 --> 00:30:59.300
<v Erik Olin Wright>work? Does it actually deter a crime? This discussion of course has a few of the few of the few

445
00:30:59.300 --> 00:31:04.880
<v Erik Olin Wright>penalty in the United States, where endless debates on the question of does the death penalty actually

446
00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:10.840
<v Erik Olin Wright>reduce murders occur, but it's a more general issue in discussions of crime and punishment.

447
00:31:11.720 --> 00:31:16.100
<v Erik Olin Wright>Now, while it is difficult to get unequivocal evidence on the deterrent effects of punishment,

448
00:31:16.360 --> 00:31:19.720
<v Erik Olin Wright>I think the following is a reasonable way of thinking about the problem.

449
00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:27.140
<v Erik Olin Wright>The threat of imprisonment has a much bigger effect in determining the likely targets of

450
00:31:27.140 --> 00:31:32.600
<v Erik Olin Wright>specific crimes than on the probability of committing them. Why do poor people generally

451
00:31:32.600 --> 00:31:39.860
<v Erik Olin Wright>steal from poor people rather than rich people? Why don't would-be burglars go out to the rich

452
00:31:39.860 --> 00:31:50.360
<v Erik Olin Wright>suburbs routinely to break into rich houses? Why don't poor minority shoplifters shoplift

453
00:31:51.940 --> 00:31:56.940
<v Erik Olin Wright>from expensive clothing stores? Well, in each case, I think a significant

454
00:31:56.940 --> 00:31:57.120
<v Erik Olin Wright>difference between the two is that the number of people who are in the same situation as

455
00:31:57.120 --> 00:31:57.140
<v Erik Olin Wright>the rich people is much higher than the number of people who are in the same situation as

456
00:31:57.140 --> 00:32:01.300
<v Erik Olin Wright>the rich people. And the second part of the answer is not that they are lazy or they can't

457
00:32:01.300 --> 00:32:05.240
<v Erik Olin Wright>be bothered going to the rich store to do the shoplifting, but that the probabilities

458
00:32:05.240 --> 00:32:10.040
<v Erik Olin Wright>of getting caught are much greater. And the probability of getting caught only has any

459
00:32:10.040 --> 00:32:12.860
<v Erik Olin Wright>bite because getting caught has something to do with getting punished.

460
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:20.080
<v Erik Olin Wright>There is little evidence that stiff punishments have massive effects on the overall levels

461
00:32:20.080 --> 00:32:25.540
<v Erik Olin Wright>of crime, but I do think that punishment directs crime towards more vulnerable targets.

462
00:32:27.500 --> 00:32:34.640
<v Erik Olin Wright>Now that's, I'm saying this not as an endorsement of stiff punishments as a way of directing

463
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:40.840
<v Erik Olin Wright>crime towards vulnerable targets, but to, I think, bring the sociological realism of

464
00:32:40.840 --> 00:32:44.640
<v Erik Olin Wright>the effects of punishment on the behavior of people.

465
00:32:47.660 --> 00:32:57.100
<v Erik Olin Wright>How much time do I have left? Just four minutes, okay. I'd like to now address, I think, a bigger issue about the

466
00:32:57.100 --> 00:33:04.340
<v Erik Olin Wright>role of punishment as part of a broad social strategy for dealing with questions of social order,

467
00:33:05.080 --> 00:33:08.640
<v Erik Olin Wright>and the relationship between punishment and the problem of individual responsibility,

468
00:33:09.100 --> 00:33:14.500
<v Erik Olin Wright>and what this means as a kind of configuration of a political and social strategy for dealing

469
00:33:14.500 --> 00:33:21.200
<v Erik Olin Wright>with problems of order. The reliance on punishment as the central modality for responding to crime

470
00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:27.080
<v Erik Olin Wright>is part of a broader ideological package that focuses primarily on the responsibility of the

471
00:33:27.080 --> 00:33:32.480
<v Erik Olin Wright>individuals for their own choices and actions, rather than on the social conditions within

472
00:33:32.480 --> 00:33:39.040
<v Erik Olin Wright>which those choices take place. The same kind of stance applies to issues of poverty and

473
00:33:39.040 --> 00:33:45.620
<v Erik Olin Wright>welfare reform. If one sees the poor as primarily responsible for their own poverty, then the

474
00:33:45.620 --> 00:33:51.880
<v Erik Olin Wright>solution to poverty is to make it more costly to be poor, to eliminate the so-called incentives

475
00:33:51.880 --> 00:33:55.480
<v Erik Olin Wright>to stay poor that are part of the welfare system.

476
00:33:57.080 --> 00:34:03.700
<v Erik Olin Wright>In the case of poverty, this view is sometimes referred to as blaming the victim, rather than blaming society.

477
00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:12.060
<v Erik Olin Wright>And in the United States, in our massive, destructive reform of the welfare system, the new law which replaced

478
00:34:12.060 --> 00:34:21.760
<v Erik Olin Wright>the prior welfare regime is called the Personal Responsibility Act. It has other terms in it, but personal

479
00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:27.060
<v Erik Olin Wright>responsibility is the central ideological framing of the system. And it's a very important part of the

480
00:34:27.060 --> 00:34:33.860
<v Erik Olin Wright>issue. Now, of course, individuals do make choices, and they bear moral responsibility for the choices they make,

481
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:40.400
<v Erik Olin Wright>but this does not imply that the best way to reduce the frequency with which particular choices are made is to

482
00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:46.580
<v Erik Olin Wright>punish people for making those choices. Changing the conditions within which choices are made can, in many

483
00:34:46.580 --> 00:34:52.460
<v Erik Olin Wright>cases, be much more effective than changing the incentives for people to make particular choices.

484
00:34:52.820 --> 00:34:57.040
<v Erik Olin Wright>Now, the problem, however, is that this is really a political issue.

485
00:34:57.060 --> 00:35:03.180
<v Erik Olin Wright>It's not a political Pandora's box. A strategy for reducing crime that focuses on the crucial social conditions,

486
00:35:04.140 --> 00:35:10.300
<v Erik Olin Wright>which underwrite the kinds of crimes that are seen as threatening to social order, would have to confront the

487
00:35:10.300 --> 00:35:16.880
<v Erik Olin Wright>problems of high inequality, alienation and poverty, long-term unemployment, and so on, which would threaten the

488
00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:24.780
<v Erik Olin Wright>interests of those with privilege and power. Punishment is a less threatening strategy, regardless of its

489
00:35:24.780 --> 00:35:25.200
<v Erik Olin Wright>effectiveness.

490
00:35:25.900 --> 00:35:26.540
<v Erik Olin Wright>Punishment is a less threatening strategy, regardless of its effectiveness.

491
00:35:26.540 --> 00:35:27.040
<v Erik Olin Wright>The vision of the world is that the world is a place of power, and that the world is a place of power.

492
00:35:27.060 --> 00:35:36.460
<v Erik Olin Wright>The religious anti-crime politics of the right wing, the law and order mantra that we hear in the United States, and I gather is becoming more common here as well.

493
00:35:42.580 --> 00:35:50.040
<v Erik Olin Wright>The law and order rhetoric underwrites a broader stance against democratic egalitarian values and policies.

494
00:35:50.540 --> 00:35:56.500
<v Erik Olin Wright>Everyone should be held responsible for their own fate, and since the fundamental issue is the bad choices,

495
00:35:56.500 --> 00:35:56.680
<v Erik Olin Wright>the religious anti-crime politics of the right wing, the law and order mantra that we hear in the United States, and since the fundamental issue is the bad choices,

496
00:35:56.680 --> 00:36:04.140
<v Erik Olin Wright>some people make, then what is needed is a way of changing the incentives people face, and punishment certainly is a disincentive.

497
00:36:04.300 --> 00:36:07.440
<v Erik Olin Wright>This is not necessarily a less expensive strategy.

498
00:36:07.740 --> 00:36:13.600
<v Erik Olin Wright>In the United States, the costs of massive imprisonment of poor offenders is extraordinarily high.

499
00:36:13.840 --> 00:36:19.020
<v Erik Olin Wright>The bill for prisons in many states in the United States now exceeds that of higher education.

500
00:36:20.680 --> 00:36:22.260
<v Erik Olin Wright>Cost is not the issue.

501
00:36:24.180 --> 00:36:26.480
<v Erik Olin Wright>Nor is the effectiveness in education.

502
00:36:26.500 --> 00:36:27.620
<v Erik Olin Wright>The issue is not actually solving problems.

503
00:36:27.720 --> 00:36:32.100
<v Erik Olin Wright>How effective imprisonment is, is not what's in play here.

504
00:36:32.300 --> 00:36:38.700
<v Erik Olin Wright>The issue is how to deal with crime in a way that insulates certain interests from potential political challenge.

505
00:36:39.340 --> 00:36:45.800
<v Erik Olin Wright>In order to shift the political course from a law and order punishment and disincentive perspective,

506
00:36:46.600 --> 00:36:53.860
<v Erik Olin Wright>therefore requires a broader challenge to privileges and power and inequality, which underwrite those kinds of strategies.

507
00:37:10.260 --> 00:37:24.400
<v Chair>This video was made possible in a few

508
00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:28.780
<v Chair>coming we might start to talk amongst ourselves for a little while but please come forward.

509
00:37:29.400 --> 00:37:34.120
<v Chair>Probably what I'll do is take people in sequence, the front and then back and then you can move

510
00:37:34.120 --> 00:37:39.480
<v Chair>off after your question. I do ask that you do make your questions pithy and to the point

511
00:37:39.480 --> 00:37:44.740
<v Chair>so that others can get a chance to participate. Maybe the gentleman fronting up to the first

512
00:37:44.740 --> 00:37:50.980
<v Audience>front microphone there. I wonder if I could address my question to Father Frank. I wonder

513
00:37:50.980 --> 00:37:56.460
<v Audience>if he would just care to comment on the recent Aboriginal case in the Northern Territory

514
00:37:56.460 --> 00:38:02.800
<v Audience>but perhaps he could predict somebody asking this. The 15-year-old girl I think was promised

515
00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:09.620
<v Audience>by her parents to this much older man and then delivered and various things happened.

516
00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:13.760
<v Audience>There have been various appeals. I'm not quite sure what stage that's got to but that raises

517
00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:20.960
<v Audience>the conflict between standards of traditional and white man's standards of better living.

518
00:38:20.980 --> 00:38:28.700
<v Audience>I just wondered if you'd seem horribly difficult to me but you would care to comment on that.

519
00:38:29.500 --> 00:38:36.000
<v Frank Brennan>Well, I think these are very vexed issues but I think what it comes down to, trying

520
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:41.460
<v Frank Brennan>to put it in some simple terms, is that we're dealing with situations of societies and individuals

521
00:38:41.460 --> 00:38:47.800
<v Frank Brennan>which have undergone extraordinarily rapid change. As I often say, if I visit a place

522
00:38:47.800 --> 00:38:50.960
<v Frank Brennan>like, say, Balgo in the Kimberleys or somewhere else in the UK, I'm not going to be able to

523
00:38:50.960 --> 00:38:56.160
<v Frank Brennan>visit some of these places in Arnhem Land. If I were visiting them 15 or 20 years ago,

524
00:38:56.880 --> 00:39:03.740
<v Frank Brennan>then there was literally no telephone. There was no television. There was no fax. There

525
00:39:03.740 --> 00:39:08.840
<v Frank Brennan>were no videos. There was minimal contact. There were very few four-wheel drives and

526
00:39:08.840 --> 00:39:13.560
<v Frank Brennan>there was very little contact by aeroplane. All of that has changed within a generation.

527
00:39:14.260 --> 00:39:20.360
<v Frank Brennan>So visiting those communities now, like I can meet a young man who's just been off for

528
00:39:20.360 --> 00:39:20.620
<v Frank Brennan>law.

529
00:39:20.740 --> 00:39:20.940
<v Frank Brennan>Oh, my God.

530
00:39:20.940 --> 00:39:27.080
<v Frank Brennan>But at the same time, he has watched more episodes of Dallas or LA Law than I would

531
00:39:27.080 --> 00:39:34.220
<v Frank Brennan>ever watch in a lifetime. And so what you have is incarnated in the one 15-year-old

532
00:39:34.220 --> 00:39:44.060
<v Frank Brennan>the clash of cultures and the clash of claims. And so what you're looking at is the young

533
00:39:44.060 --> 00:39:50.260
<v Frank Brennan>15-year-old who has now an awareness of her individual human rights.

534
00:39:52.160 --> 00:39:57.100
<v Frank Brennan>And the truth of the truth of the truth of the truth of the truth of the truth of the

535
00:39:57.100 --> 00:40:07.620
<v Frank Brennan>truth of the truth of the truth of the truth of the truth of the truth of the truth of the

536
00:40:07.620 --> 00:40:08.000
<v Frank Brennan>truth of the truth of the truth of the truth of the truth of the truth of the truth of the

537
00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:20.340
<v Frank Brennan>truth of the truth of the truth of the truth of the truth of the truth of the truth of the

538
00:40:20.340 --> 00:40:28.120
<v Frank Brennan>what we're trying to deal with is that conflict, which is not a conflict between one culture and

539
00:40:28.120 --> 00:40:33.180
<v Frank Brennan>another. No, it's a conflict which is there within the very lives of these individuals.

540
00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:40.460
<v Frank Brennan>And so my working proposition is always in favour of community self-determination.

541
00:40:40.700 --> 00:40:47.820
<v Frank Brennan>But if there be an individual within that community, a bride or a victim, who says,

542
00:40:47.820 --> 00:40:54.580
<v Frank Brennan>I want nothing of this because I see it as an infringement of my rights as a human being,

543
00:40:55.400 --> 00:41:02.200
<v Frank Brennan>then I think the mainstream legal system has to give protection and recognition to that.

544
00:41:03.040 --> 00:41:09.360
<v Frank Brennan>But if there be an arrangement, a transaction, if it be a criminal offence or a marital arrangement

545
00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:15.500
<v Frank Brennan>or whatever, where there is agreement among all parties that we want to continue to follow our

546
00:41:15.500 --> 00:41:17.800
<v Frank Brennan>traditional ways, then I think that's a good thing.

547
00:41:17.800 --> 00:41:23.360
<v Frank Brennan>I would be of the view that there should be a hands-off approach by the mainstream legal and

548
00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:27.860
<v Frank Brennan>political apparatchiks in order that that society might find its level.

549
00:41:29.060 --> 00:41:35.200
<v John Braithwaite>Frank, I wonder if you would, I absolutely agree with everything that you said, but in saying that

550
00:41:35.200 --> 00:41:42.420
<v John Braithwaite>you need to give protection to those rights should the young person want to make a claim on that

551
00:41:42.420 --> 00:41:47.020
<v John Braithwaite>right. Do you need to enforce that right punitively, though, against those

552
00:41:47.020 --> 00:41:47.420
<v John Braithwaite>people?

553
00:41:47.420 --> 00:41:47.780
<v John Braithwaite>I don't think so.

554
00:41:47.800 --> 00:41:52.080
<v John Braithwaite>Who are trying to take the right away from the...

555
00:41:52.080 --> 00:41:57.080
<v Frank Brennan>Well, the question is, who is you in the state?

556
00:41:57.360 --> 00:42:04.440
<v John Braithwaite>Should the state take punitive action against those acting in a customary fashion, seeking to act

557
00:42:04.440 --> 00:42:09.360
<v John Braithwaite>in a customary fashion and constrain the rights of the young woman in that circumstance?

558
00:42:09.880 --> 00:42:15.440
<v Frank Brennan>I think the state should only take punitive action if there be a request for that punitive action to

559
00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:17.500
<v Frank Brennan>be taken by the community authorities.

560
00:42:17.500 --> 00:42:20.700
<v Frank Brennan>Or, by the individual and her family.

561
00:42:22.820 --> 00:42:24.780
<v Chair>The questioner at the back, at the microphone.

562
00:42:25.600 --> 00:42:27.060
<v Audience>This is addressed to all three.

563
00:42:27.320 --> 00:42:34.400
<v Audience>What kind of consequences are there when a society punishes people who have committed no crime, and I'm referring

564
00:42:34.400 --> 00:42:40.500
<v Audience>specifically to refugees, asylum seekers, detainees, and what are the consequences for us as a society

565
00:42:40.500 --> 00:42:42.840
<v Audience>and for those individuals that are so punished?

566
00:42:43.360 --> 00:42:43.680
<v Chair>Yes.

567
00:42:50.120 --> 00:42:51.760
<v Chair>the question's for you guys

568
00:42:51.760 --> 00:42:54.400
<v Chair>I mean

569
00:42:54.400 --> 00:42:56.700
<v Erik Olin Wright>the question

570
00:42:56.700 --> 00:42:57.820
<v Erik Olin Wright>what are the consequences

571
00:42:57.820 --> 00:42:58.540
<v Erik Olin Wright>is this on?

572
00:42:58.660 --> 00:42:59.280
<v Erik Olin Wright>is this working?

573
00:42:59.420 --> 00:42:59.580
<v Erik Olin Wright>yeah

574
00:42:59.580 --> 00:43:01.000
<v Erik Olin Wright>the question

575
00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:02.120
<v Erik Olin Wright>what are the consequences

576
00:43:02.120 --> 00:43:03.080
<v Erik Olin Wright>for a society

577
00:43:03.080 --> 00:43:04.260
<v Erik Olin Wright>of punishing people

578
00:43:04.260 --> 00:43:05.540
<v Erik Olin Wright>who have not committed crimes

579
00:43:06.540 --> 00:43:08.400
<v Erik Olin Wright>I mean as a general matter

580
00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:10.240
<v Erik Olin Wright>it's even worse

581
00:43:10.240 --> 00:43:11.420
<v Erik Olin Wright>to punish people

582
00:43:11.420 --> 00:43:12.780
<v Erik Olin Wright>who have committed no crimes

583
00:43:12.780 --> 00:43:14.000
<v Erik Olin Wright>than it is to punish people

584
00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:15.200
<v Erik Olin Wright>who have committed crimes

585
00:43:15.200 --> 00:43:16.680
<v Erik Olin Wright>and punishing people

586
00:43:16.680 --> 00:43:18.020
<v Erik Olin Wright>who have committed crimes

587
00:43:18.020 --> 00:43:19.920
<v Erik Olin Wright>having that be the basic modality

588
00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:21.320
<v Erik Olin Wright>for dealing with problems

589
00:43:21.320 --> 00:43:22.140
<v Erik Olin Wright>of social order

590
00:43:22.140 --> 00:43:23.620
<v Erik Olin Wright>creates a society

591
00:43:23.620 --> 00:43:24.620
<v Erik Olin Wright>within which

592
00:43:25.580 --> 00:43:27.560
<v Erik Olin Wright>repression rather than social change

593
00:43:27.560 --> 00:43:28.000
<v Erik Olin Wright>becomes

594
00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:29.480
<v Erik Olin Wright>and the protection of privilege

595
00:43:29.480 --> 00:43:30.560
<v Erik Olin Wright>becomes the central way

596
00:43:30.560 --> 00:43:32.300
<v Erik Olin Wright>in which social problems

597
00:43:32.300 --> 00:43:32.940
<v Erik Olin Wright>are dealt with

598
00:43:32.940 --> 00:43:34.040
<v Erik Olin Wright>now I don't

599
00:43:34.040 --> 00:43:35.760
<v Erik Olin Wright>I don't

600
00:43:35.760 --> 00:43:36.540
<v Erik Olin Wright>I can't

601
00:43:36.540 --> 00:43:38.040
<v Erik Olin Wright>I think say anything

602
00:43:38.040 --> 00:43:39.920
<v Erik Olin Wright>about the specific consequences

603
00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:41.720
<v Erik Olin Wright>of that domain

604
00:43:41.720 --> 00:43:44.320
<v Erik Olin Wright>of criminalizing

605
00:43:44.320 --> 00:43:45.720
<v Erik Olin Wright>and punishing

606
00:43:45.720 --> 00:43:46.580
<v Erik Olin Wright>of activities

607
00:43:46.680 --> 00:43:47.580
<v Erik Olin Wright>other than

608
00:43:47.580 --> 00:43:49.200
<v Erik Olin Wright>to see it as

609
00:43:49.200 --> 00:43:50.260
<v Erik Olin Wright>reinforcing

610
00:43:50.260 --> 00:43:51.700
<v Erik Olin Wright>a general stance

611
00:43:51.700 --> 00:43:52.380
<v Erik Olin Wright>towards

612
00:43:52.380 --> 00:43:53.780
<v Erik Olin Wright>social challenge

613
00:43:53.780 --> 00:43:54.260
<v Erik Olin Wright>which

614
00:43:54.260 --> 00:43:55.840
<v Erik Olin Wright>creates these

615
00:43:55.840 --> 00:43:56.900
<v Erik Olin Wright>pathologies

616
00:43:56.900 --> 00:43:58.560
<v John Braithwaite>I think as

617
00:43:58.560 --> 00:43:59.160
<v John Braithwaite>as Frank

618
00:43:59.160 --> 00:43:59.840
<v John Braithwaite>implied

619
00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:01.340
<v John Braithwaite>it destroys freedom

620
00:44:01.340 --> 00:44:01.900
<v John Braithwaite>because

621
00:44:01.900 --> 00:44:03.300
<v John Braithwaite>you have no freedom

622
00:44:03.300 --> 00:44:04.580
<v John Braithwaite>if you live in a society

623
00:44:04.580 --> 00:44:04.980
<v John Braithwaite>in which

624
00:44:04.980 --> 00:44:06.200
<v John Braithwaite>you're subject to

625
00:44:06.200 --> 00:44:06.840
<v John Braithwaite>arbitrary punishment

626
00:44:06.840 --> 00:44:08.100
<v John Braithwaite>even if you're

627
00:44:08.100 --> 00:44:08.700
<v John Braithwaite>you know

628
00:44:08.700 --> 00:44:09.900
<v John Braithwaite>bring yourself into that society

629
00:44:11.380 --> 00:44:12.860
<v Frank Brennan>I've spent 18 months

630
00:44:12.860 --> 00:44:14.120
<v Frank Brennan>since I got back from East Timor

631
00:44:14.120 --> 00:44:15.120
<v Frank Brennan>going once a month

632
00:44:15.120 --> 00:44:15.920
<v Frank Brennan>to places like

633
00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:17.180
<v Frank Brennan>Baxter and Woomera

634
00:44:17.180 --> 00:44:18.120
<v Frank Brennan>and Port Hedland

635
00:44:18.120 --> 00:44:18.920
<v Frank Brennan>and

636
00:44:19.900 --> 00:44:21.900
<v Frank Brennan>like up at Baxter last weekend

637
00:44:21.900 --> 00:44:23.740
<v Frank Brennan>I met one family there

638
00:44:23.740 --> 00:44:25.460
<v Frank Brennan>their younger child

639
00:44:25.460 --> 00:44:26.940
<v Frank Brennan>will turn six next month

640
00:44:26.940 --> 00:44:29.100
<v Frank Brennan>and she has spent three years

641
00:44:29.100 --> 00:44:31.460
<v Frank Brennan>living in an Australian detention centre

642
00:44:31.460 --> 00:44:34.340
<v Frank Brennan>so she has led half her life

643
00:44:34.340 --> 00:44:36.280
<v Frank Brennan>her whole remembered life

644
00:44:36.280 --> 00:44:37.940
<v Frank Brennan>as Bob Ellis just reminded me

645
00:44:37.940 --> 00:44:40.240
<v Frank Brennan>living in a detention centre

646
00:44:40.240 --> 00:44:41.920
<v Frank Brennan>now I know that the politicians

647
00:44:41.920 --> 00:44:43.320
<v Frank Brennan>and the members of the public

648
00:44:43.320 --> 00:44:44.700
<v Frank Brennan>who say look

649
00:44:44.700 --> 00:44:46.660
<v Frank Brennan>it's simply collateral damage

650
00:44:46.660 --> 00:44:48.580
<v Frank Brennan>that these kids have to be held in detention

651
00:44:48.580 --> 00:44:50.240
<v Frank Brennan>even though they've never been

652
00:44:50.240 --> 00:44:51.540
<v Frank Brennan>convicted of an offence

653
00:44:51.540 --> 00:44:54.500
<v Frank Brennan>they've never looked these families in the eye

654
00:44:54.500 --> 00:44:56.600
<v Frank Brennan>and where you have a society

655
00:44:57.280 --> 00:44:58.820
<v Frank Brennan>which sets up

656
00:44:58.820 --> 00:45:00.500
<v Frank Brennan>a discriminatory policy

657
00:45:00.500 --> 00:45:02.980
<v Frank Brennan>in order to send a double message

658
00:45:02.980 --> 00:45:04.280
<v Frank Brennan>that is

659
00:45:04.280 --> 00:45:07.220
<v Frank Brennan>don't bother turning up in this first world country

660
00:45:07.220 --> 00:45:09.780
<v Frank Brennan>go anywhere else in the world other than here

661
00:45:09.780 --> 00:45:12.540
<v Frank Brennan>and the second message to the voters

662
00:45:12.540 --> 00:45:14.680
<v Frank Brennan>vote for us because we've got the power to do it

663
00:45:14.680 --> 00:45:15.280
<v Frank Brennan>and we've got the ticker

664
00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:17.540
<v Frank Brennan>to impose this collateral damage

665
00:45:17.540 --> 00:45:21.280
<v Frank Brennan>then we're starting to do a lot of violence to ourselves

666
00:45:21.280 --> 00:45:23.100
<v Frank Brennan>as a moral community

667
00:45:23.980 --> 00:45:24.100
<v Frank Brennan>applause

668
00:45:32.020 --> 00:45:33.860
<v Chair>the woman at the front

669
00:45:33.860 --> 00:45:37.200
<v Audience>my concern relates to

670
00:45:37.200 --> 00:45:41.300
<v Audience>how we deal with crime and punishment through our young

671
00:45:41.300 --> 00:45:44.100
<v Audience>I worked in the Northern Territory

672
00:45:44.100 --> 00:45:48.060
<v Audience>there's a strong belief that a lot of the crime

673
00:45:48.060 --> 00:45:51.520
<v Audience>and activities are related to alcoholism

674
00:45:51.520 --> 00:45:52.560
<v Audience>in fact

675
00:45:52.560 --> 00:45:57.980
<v Audience>a significantly small proportion of indigenous people

676
00:45:57.980 --> 00:46:00.000
<v Audience>actually use or abuse alcohol

677
00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:02.160
<v Audience>compared with the white population

678
00:46:03.100 --> 00:46:04.380
<v Audience>however for the young people

679
00:46:05.100 --> 00:46:06.100
<v Audience>my dilemma was

680
00:46:07.100 --> 00:46:08.880
<v Audience>I worked in Alice Freemans

681
00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:13.580
<v Audience>if a young person committed a crime that was considered so heinous

682
00:46:13.580 --> 00:46:14.080
<v Audience>that they were

683
00:46:14.100 --> 00:46:16.300
<v Speaker 8>or had repeated it enough times

684
00:46:16.300 --> 00:46:19.280
<v Audience>they were either sent to Darwin or to Adelaide

685
00:46:19.280 --> 00:46:20.660
<v Audience>to be interned

686
00:46:20.660 --> 00:46:23.960
<v Audience>away from family and community

687
00:46:26.240 --> 00:46:28.080
<v Audience>how do we

688
00:46:29.100 --> 00:46:32.220
<v Audience>create a sense of justice and rightness

689
00:46:32.220 --> 00:46:34.180
<v Audience>in our notions with crime and punishment

690
00:46:35.100 --> 00:46:39.400
<v Audience>when we massively double penalise people

691
00:46:40.100 --> 00:46:42.860
<v Audience>because of a where they are or because of their poverty

692
00:46:42.860 --> 00:46:46.740
<v Audience>and where does the notion of rehabilitation fit

693
00:46:46.740 --> 00:46:49.180
<v Audience>within that concept

694
00:46:49.860 --> 00:46:50.600
<v John Braithwaite>applause

695
00:46:52.860 --> 00:46:53.400
<v John Braithwaite>one for you John

696
00:46:53.400 --> 00:46:55.080
<v John Braithwaite>one for me

697
00:46:55.860 --> 00:46:56.040
<v John Braithwaite>thank you

698
00:46:56.040 --> 00:47:01.880
<v John Braithwaite>well I absolutely agree with the spirit of your comments

699
00:47:01.880 --> 00:47:06.220
<v John Braithwaite>and the direction for seeking a solution

700
00:47:06.860 --> 00:47:12.700
<v John Braithwaite>is to move our focus in our jurisprudence away from

701
00:47:12.860 --> 00:47:13.720
<v John Braithwaite>the notion

702
00:47:13.720 --> 00:47:17.740
<v John Braithwaite>that what the justice system should be about

703
00:47:17.740 --> 00:47:21.640
<v John Braithwaite>is equal punishment for equal wrongs

704
00:47:21.640 --> 00:47:24.560
<v John Braithwaite>and some theory of how you do that

705
00:47:24.560 --> 00:47:27.160
<v John Braithwaite>how many days of pain

706
00:47:27.860 --> 00:47:29.140
<v John Braithwaite>being locked up

707
00:47:29.140 --> 00:47:31.820
<v John Braithwaite>you ought to suffer for this offence

708
00:47:31.820 --> 00:47:33.300
<v John Braithwaite>versus that offence

709
00:47:33.300 --> 00:47:34.360
<v John Braithwaite>when as you say

710
00:47:34.360 --> 00:47:37.480
<v John Braithwaite>the pain falls very unequally

711
00:47:37.480 --> 00:47:41.580
<v John Braithwaite>on people in different circumstances

712
00:47:41.580 --> 00:47:45.860
<v John Braithwaite>so the restorative justice answer

713
00:47:45.860 --> 00:47:50.040
<v John Braithwaite>is not to put the offender

714
00:47:50.040 --> 00:47:50.720
<v John Braithwaite>the person

715
00:47:50.720 --> 00:47:53.080
<v John Braithwaite>in the centre of the circle

716
00:47:53.080 --> 00:47:54.240
<v John Braithwaite>of deliberation

717
00:47:54.240 --> 00:47:57.040
<v John Braithwaite>as to what one ought to do

718
00:47:57.040 --> 00:48:00.420
<v John Braithwaite>whether it's an offence

719
00:48:00.420 --> 00:48:02.320
<v John Braithwaite>that's connected to customary law

720
00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:04.440
<v John Braithwaite>or something else

721
00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:05.620
<v John Braithwaite>but to put the problem

722
00:48:05.620 --> 00:48:08.000
<v John Braithwaite>in the centre of the circle

723
00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:09.340
<v John Braithwaite>instead of the person

724
00:48:09.340 --> 00:48:10.660
<v John Braithwaite>in the centre of the circle

725
00:48:10.660 --> 00:48:11.500
<v John Braithwaite>and to ask the question

726
00:48:11.500 --> 00:48:11.560
<v John Braithwaite>why is it that we are not

727
00:48:11.560 --> 00:48:14.980
<v John Braithwaite>going to solve this problem

728
00:48:14.980 --> 00:48:18.120
<v John Braithwaite>and so the restorative justice claim

729
00:48:18.120 --> 00:48:21.860
<v John Braithwaite>is that whatever retributive theory

730
00:48:21.860 --> 00:48:24.860
<v John Braithwaite>or just deserts theory tells us

731
00:48:24.860 --> 00:48:26.960
<v John Braithwaite>is the right punishment

732
00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:28.160
<v John Braithwaite>for this offence

733
00:48:28.160 --> 00:48:30.020
<v John Braithwaite>will be almost always

734
00:48:30.020 --> 00:48:32.240
<v John Braithwaite>the wrong solution to the problem

735
00:48:32.240 --> 00:48:36.000
<v Erik Olin Wright>A comment on rehabilitation

736
00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:40.800
<v Erik Olin Wright>of course if a person is going to be imprisoned

737
00:48:40.800 --> 00:48:41.540
<v Erik Olin Wright>it's better to be in prison

738
00:48:41.540 --> 00:48:44.140
<v Erik Olin Wright>it's better if in the context of being in prison

739
00:48:44.140 --> 00:48:46.360
<v Erik Olin Wright>there are good and constructive programs available

740
00:48:46.360 --> 00:48:49.600
<v Erik Olin Wright>rather than not having good and constructive programs available

741
00:48:50.520 --> 00:48:52.260
<v Erik Olin Wright>but the question of rehabilitation

742
00:48:52.260 --> 00:48:53.660
<v Erik Olin Wright>usually in practice

743
00:48:53.660 --> 00:48:55.300
<v Erik Olin Wright>in prison and settings

744
00:48:55.300 --> 00:48:56.560
<v Erik Olin Wright>doesn't work that way

745
00:48:56.560 --> 00:48:57.440
<v Erik Olin Wright>when I

746
00:48:57.440 --> 00:48:59.300
<v Erik Olin Wright>this is 30 year old data

747
00:48:59.300 --> 00:49:00.000
<v Erik Olin Wright>as it were

748
00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:01.740
<v Erik Olin Wright>but when I was in San Quentin prison

749
00:49:01.740 --> 00:49:03.420
<v Erik Olin Wright>universally prisoners regarded

750
00:49:03.420 --> 00:49:05.280
<v Erik Olin Wright>the rehabilitation programs

751
00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:07.220
<v Erik Olin Wright>as simply another form of social control

752
00:49:07.220 --> 00:49:08.320
<v Erik Olin Wright>inside of the prison

753
00:49:08.320 --> 00:49:10.200
<v Erik Olin Wright>because then they had to demonstrate

754
00:49:10.200 --> 00:49:11.520
<v Erik Olin Wright>that they were rehabilitated

755
00:49:11.540 --> 00:49:12.660
<v Erik Olin Wright>in order to get probation

756
00:49:13.540 --> 00:49:14.260
<v Erik Olin Wright>or parole

757
00:49:14.260 --> 00:49:16.600
<v Erik Olin Wright>rather than just serving their time

758
00:49:16.600 --> 00:49:17.880
<v Erik Olin Wright>and to my surprise

759
00:49:18.540 --> 00:49:19.420
<v Erik Olin Wright>in that context

760
00:49:19.420 --> 00:49:21.320
<v Erik Olin Wright>in California in the early 70s

761
00:49:22.400 --> 00:49:23.880
<v Erik Olin Wright>prisoners who had served time

762
00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:26.260
<v Erik Olin Wright>in both southern jails

763
00:49:26.260 --> 00:49:27.660
<v Erik Olin Wright>and prisons in the United States

764
00:49:27.660 --> 00:49:29.520
<v Erik Olin Wright>Mississippi and Louisiana and the like

765
00:49:29.520 --> 00:49:30.340
<v Erik Olin Wright>and in California

766
00:49:30.340 --> 00:49:32.240
<v Erik Olin Wright>they said they preferred the tough

767
00:49:33.980 --> 00:49:37.080
<v Erik Olin Wright>less rehabilitative prisons of Mississippi

768
00:49:37.080 --> 00:49:38.920
<v Erik Olin Wright>because they knew how to get out

769
00:49:38.920 --> 00:49:40.100
<v Erik Olin Wright>they knew what they had to do

770
00:49:40.100 --> 00:49:41.460
<v Erik Olin Wright>they just had to do what they were told

771
00:49:41.460 --> 00:49:41.520
<v Erik Olin Wright>and they were told

772
00:49:41.540 --> 00:49:43.300
<v Erik Olin Wright>whereas in California

773
00:49:43.300 --> 00:49:45.460
<v Erik Olin Wright>they had to prove that they were rehabilitated

774
00:49:45.460 --> 00:49:47.860
<v Erik Olin Wright>now as a general matter I think

775
00:49:47.860 --> 00:49:49.720
<v Erik Olin Wright>whatever is virtuous about rehabilitation

776
00:49:49.720 --> 00:49:52.420
<v Erik Olin Wright>should be a set of resources made available

777
00:49:52.420 --> 00:49:55.820
<v Erik Olin Wright>to the relevant communities inside or outside of prison

778
00:49:55.820 --> 00:49:58.680
<v Erik Olin Wright>you shouldn't have to go to prison to get rehabilitated

779
00:49:58.680 --> 00:50:02.600
<v Erik Olin Wright>rehabilitation as a enabling and capacitating

780
00:50:02.600 --> 00:50:06.000
<v Erik Olin Wright>set of practices for disadvantaged groups

781
00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:08.960
<v Erik Olin Wright>should be a universal feature of their experience

782
00:50:10.380 --> 00:50:11.520
<v Erik Olin Wright>when it's in prison

783
00:50:11.520 --> 00:50:15.260
<v Erik Olin Wright>it's almost invariably becomes another tool of social control

784
00:50:18.640 --> 00:50:20.520
<v Chair>The gentleman at the back

785
00:50:20.520 --> 00:50:21.460
<v Audience>Mr. Chairman

786
00:50:21.460 --> 00:50:24.200
<v Audience>a series of questions for you finally

787
00:50:24.200 --> 00:50:26.000
<v Audience>first of all I'd like to thank the panelists

788
00:50:26.000 --> 00:50:26.940
<v Audience>for being to say

789
00:50:27.540 --> 00:50:28.440
<v Audience>when I was down

790
00:50:28.440 --> 00:50:30.400
<v Audience>I've been thinking about crime and punishment

791
00:50:30.400 --> 00:50:31.600
<v Audience>in the last half hour or so

792
00:50:31.600 --> 00:50:33.440
<v Audience>I've been wondering whether it's a crime

793
00:50:33.440 --> 00:50:35.300
<v Audience>not to have a place for people who

794
00:50:35.300 --> 00:50:38.140
<v Audience>find it difficult to get up five flights of stairs

795
00:50:38.140 --> 00:50:39.140
<v Audience>to hear such difficult

796
00:50:39.140 --> 00:50:40.980
<v Audience>to hear such splendid speakers

797
00:50:41.580 --> 00:50:43.700
<v Audience>I met a man about an hour ago

798
00:50:43.700 --> 00:50:44.520
<v Audience>who was in a wheelchair

799
00:50:44.520 --> 00:50:47.440
<v Audience>he I have little doubt would have enjoyed being here

800
00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:48.780
<v Audience>he has no way of getting up

801
00:50:48.780 --> 00:50:52.800
<v Audience>and it might be an idea to have some place to reserve

802
00:50:52.800 --> 00:50:55.320
<v Audience>so that people can stretch out and be comfortable

803
00:50:55.320 --> 00:50:57.760
<v Audience>and to get up here before the session

804
00:50:57.760 --> 00:50:59.280
<v Audience>those things might be useful

805
00:50:59.280 --> 00:51:02.080
<v Audience>when we're planning for the rest of the festival ideas

806
00:51:02.080 --> 00:51:03.600
<v Audience>in following years

807
00:51:03.600 --> 00:51:07.280
<v Audience>would you please take those questions to the committee

808
00:51:08.840 --> 00:51:11.500
<v Audience>and see if those things can be arranged for you?

809
00:51:11.500 --> 00:51:12.760
<v Chair>I shall relay your concerns

810
00:51:12.760 --> 00:51:14.280
<v Chair>I think some of the organisers are probably present

811
00:51:14.280 --> 00:51:15.120
<v Chair>so they're hearing them anyway

812
00:51:15.120 --> 00:51:15.980
<v Chair>but I will relay them

813
00:51:15.980 --> 00:51:16.360
<v Chair>thank you

814
00:51:16.360 --> 00:51:18.200
<v Chair>I think someone should be punished for that actually

815
00:51:21.920 --> 00:51:22.940
<v Chair>thank you John

816
00:51:24.280 --> 00:51:24.960
<v Chair>gentleman at the front

817
00:51:29.060 --> 00:51:29.900
<v Audience>Michael Pusing

818
00:51:30.460 --> 00:51:34.100
<v Audience>I've just spent I think part of last week

819
00:51:34.100 --> 00:51:37.920
<v Audience>writing a response to a pretty brilliant essay

820
00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:40.060
<v Audience>that came out in quarterly essays

821
00:51:40.060 --> 00:51:41.280
<v Audience>it's one of the best

822
00:51:41.500 --> 00:51:42.660
<v Audience>bits of reading in town

823
00:51:42.660 --> 00:51:44.860
<v Audience>about the cult of the CEO

824
00:51:44.860 --> 00:51:49.160
<v Audience>and that made me think again about the H.I.H disaster

825
00:51:49.160 --> 00:51:53.040
<v Audience>and I know from my own research

826
00:51:53.040 --> 00:51:55.040
<v Audience>that people are burning with resentment

827
00:51:55.040 --> 00:52:00.220
<v Audience>about what CEOs and big corporations get away with

828
00:52:00.220 --> 00:52:03.520
<v Audience>and it seems to me that one of the things

829
00:52:03.520 --> 00:52:07.140
<v Audience>that really creates a sense of terrible injustice

830
00:52:07.140 --> 00:52:11.280
<v Audience>is the sort of distance which very powerful people

831
00:52:11.280 --> 00:52:13.380
<v Audience>like this are able to put between themselves

832
00:52:13.380 --> 00:52:14.740
<v Audience>and the rest of the population

833
00:52:15.280 --> 00:52:18.940
<v Audience>and I think I'm aiming a question here

834
00:52:18.940 --> 00:52:20.460
<v Audience>at my friend John Braithwaite

835
00:52:20.460 --> 00:52:23.780
<v Audience>but how can we begin to think about

836
00:52:23.780 --> 00:52:30.640
<v Audience>a proper criminal disciplinary code

837
00:52:30.640 --> 00:52:34.260
<v Audience>and how can we begin to apply that to corporations

838
00:52:34.260 --> 00:52:37.720
<v Audience>so that ordinary people can see that extremely rich people

839
00:52:37.720 --> 00:52:41.260
<v Audience>are drawn to account in a way that's commensurate with the world

840
00:52:41.260 --> 00:52:41.380
<v Audience>and that's what we're trying to do

841
00:52:41.380 --> 00:52:44.600
<v Audience>with what happens to them when they do something wrong

842
00:52:47.460 --> 00:52:50.240
<v John Braithwaite>H.I.H is a hard case

843
00:52:50.240 --> 00:52:53.040
<v John Braithwaite>and the first thing to say is

844
00:52:53.040 --> 00:52:58.120
<v John Braithwaite>what you can't have is impunity for matters that are so serious

845
00:52:58.120 --> 00:53:02.200
<v John Braithwaite>and unfortunately as Eric was implying

846
00:53:02.200 --> 00:53:05.160
<v John Braithwaite>with most serious corporate crime

847
00:53:05.160 --> 00:53:10.860
<v John Braithwaite>our tendency is to look the other way

848
00:53:11.260 --> 00:53:13.920
<v John Braithwaite>perhaps we should have an annual corporate crime day

849
00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:16.220
<v John Braithwaite>where the Prime Minister would stand on a dais

850
00:53:16.220 --> 00:53:17.080
<v John Braithwaite>and look the other way

851
00:53:17.080 --> 00:53:21.260
<v John Braithwaite>as people like H.I.H march past

852
00:53:26.760 --> 00:53:30.560
<v John Braithwaite>so it's clear that that's what we shouldn't do

853
00:53:30.560 --> 00:53:34.480
<v John Braithwaite>we, as Frank was saying

854
00:53:34.480 --> 00:53:37.780
<v John Braithwaite>you need to look people in the eye

855
00:53:37.780 --> 00:53:41.240
<v John Braithwaite>and to say that in cases like this

856
00:53:41.240 --> 00:53:46.420
<v John Braithwaite>that here what you've done is just unacceptable to the community

857
00:53:46.420 --> 00:53:49.260
<v John Braithwaite>we need a huge community discussion

858
00:53:49.260 --> 00:53:53.100
<v John Braithwaite>about why the kind of abominable conduct

859
00:53:53.100 --> 00:53:57.180
<v John Braithwaite>in the H.I.H case is unacceptable to the community

860
00:53:57.180 --> 00:54:00.280
<v John Braithwaite>some extraordinary things need to be done

861
00:54:00.280 --> 00:54:05.100
<v John Braithwaite>by corporate Australia to repair the harm

862
00:54:05.100 --> 00:54:08.320
<v John Braithwaite>and we need to do all of that stuff

863
00:54:08.320 --> 00:54:10.660
<v John Braithwaite>a lot of that stuff earlier on

864
00:54:11.300 --> 00:54:11.920
<v John Braithwaite>preventively

865
00:54:11.920 --> 00:54:15.060
<v John Braithwaite>I mean Arthur Anderson's was

866
00:54:15.660 --> 00:54:18.860
<v John Braithwaite>Arthur Anderson's not in a position to do much now

867
00:54:18.860 --> 00:54:22.000
<v John Braithwaite>all those tens of thousands of people

868
00:54:22.660 --> 00:54:24.700
<v John Braithwaite>who work for Arthur Anderson around the world

869
00:54:24.700 --> 00:54:27.020
<v John Braithwaite>no longer work for Arthur Anderson

870
00:54:27.020 --> 00:54:30.720
<v John Braithwaite>because of that series of cases

871
00:54:30.720 --> 00:54:34.080
<v John Braithwaite>where they were advising the H.I.Hs

872
00:54:34.080 --> 00:54:36.220
<v John Braithwaite>and the World Comms and the Enrons

873
00:54:36.220 --> 00:54:39.860
<v John Braithwaite>they were the big five accountants of choice

874
00:54:39.860 --> 00:54:43.340
<v John Braithwaite>and for years now in my research

875
00:54:43.340 --> 00:54:48.340
<v John Braithwaite>I've had people in different kinds of regulatory agencies

876
00:54:48.860 --> 00:54:51.640
<v John Braithwaite>telling me stories about Arthur Anderson

877
00:54:51.640 --> 00:54:53.660
<v John Braithwaite>and how partners

878
00:54:53.660 --> 00:54:57.480
<v John Braithwaite>they'd get one of their clients into terrible trouble

879
00:54:57.480 --> 00:55:00.660
<v John Braithwaite>and other partners would come to them and say

880
00:55:00.660 --> 00:55:02.460
<v John Braithwaite>we don't want you the regulator

881
00:55:02.460 --> 00:55:04.980
<v John Braithwaite>to think that the rest of us are like

882
00:55:04.980 --> 00:55:06.580
<v John Braithwaite>this is a rogue partner

883
00:55:06.580 --> 00:55:09.840
<v John Braithwaite>well that's what I would see as the kind of problem that we would have to deal with

884
00:55:09.860 --> 00:55:11.200
<v John Braithwaite>and I think that's a preventive opportunity

885
00:55:11.860 --> 00:55:13.460
<v John Braithwaite>before you have the major crisis

886
00:55:13.460 --> 00:55:17.200
<v John Braithwaite>that then rather than have them do what they traditionally do

887
00:55:17.200 --> 00:55:19.220
<v John Braithwaite>which would be to take that partner

888
00:55:19.220 --> 00:55:21.780
<v John Braithwaite>up to the top floor of their corporate tower

889
00:55:21.780 --> 00:55:23.360
<v John Braithwaite>and throw them off

890
00:55:23.360 --> 00:55:27.180
<v John Braithwaite>to placate the regulator screaming below

891
00:55:27.180 --> 00:55:29.040
<v John Braithwaite>that rather that becomes an opportunity

892
00:55:29.040 --> 00:55:31.560
<v John Braithwaite>for sitting all the partners in a circle

893
00:55:31.560 --> 00:55:33.500
<v John Braithwaite>and hearing what this

894
00:55:34.320 --> 00:55:36.920
<v John Braithwaite>rogue partner's point of view of what this is about

895
00:55:36.920 --> 00:55:39.480
<v John Braithwaite>and very often we will find that they'll say

896
00:55:39.480 --> 00:55:41.880
<v John Braithwaite>well this is really what I've been trained to do

897
00:55:41.880 --> 00:55:43.520
<v John Braithwaite>this is the culture of the organisation

898
00:55:43.520 --> 00:55:45.900
<v John Braithwaite>and so that before you get

899
00:55:45.900 --> 00:55:48.500
<v John Braithwaite>you know you've got a preventive capability

900
00:55:49.020 --> 00:55:52.260
<v John Braithwaite>that's enabled by the restorative conversation

901
00:55:52.260 --> 00:55:54.640
<v John Braithwaite>with lesser cases that come in

902
00:55:54.640 --> 00:55:56.380
<v John Braithwaite>before the major crisis

903
00:55:56.380 --> 00:55:58.240
<v John Braithwaite>instead of what we've been doing

904
00:55:58.240 --> 00:56:00.460
<v John Braithwaite>which is so often looking the other way

905
00:56:00.460 --> 00:56:02.300
<v Chair>Can I just prompt you John

906
00:56:02.300 --> 00:56:04.920
<v Chair>how do you get those sorts of crimes on the political agenda

907
00:56:04.920 --> 00:56:07.520
<v Chair>with the exception of maybe of banks and Telstra

908
00:56:07.520 --> 00:56:09.460
<v Chair>most people don't care about big corporations

909
00:56:09.480 --> 00:56:10.420
<v Chair>corporate crime very much

910
00:56:10.420 --> 00:56:12.940
<v Chair>compared to traditional forms of crime

911
00:56:12.940 --> 00:56:14.260
<v Chair>how do we get that onto the agenda

912
00:56:14.260 --> 00:56:16.660
<v Chair>so that people generally see it as politically worthwhile

913
00:56:17.480 --> 00:56:19.280
<v John Braithwaite>They do care

914
00:56:19.280 --> 00:56:20.800
<v John Braithwaite>people do care

915
00:56:21.480 --> 00:56:22.980
<v John Braithwaite>about major corporate crime

916
00:56:22.980 --> 00:56:23.500
<v John Braithwaite>they care

917
00:56:23.500 --> 00:56:27.620
<v John Braithwaite>I mean we don't have recent survey evidence

918
00:56:27.620 --> 00:56:29.060
<v John Braithwaite>but if you ask people

919
00:56:30.740 --> 00:56:34.540
<v John Braithwaite>particularly about occupational health and safety offences

920
00:56:34.540 --> 00:56:36.480
<v John Braithwaite>and environmental offences

921
00:56:37.180 --> 00:56:38.860
<v John Braithwaite>they will rate

922
00:56:39.640 --> 00:56:41.100
<v John Braithwaite>Australians do rate

923
00:56:41.100 --> 00:56:44.340
<v John Braithwaite>serious occupational health and safety offences

924
00:56:44.340 --> 00:56:45.620
<v John Braithwaite>say that cause a person

925
00:56:45.620 --> 00:56:47.580
<v John Braithwaite>a worker to lose a leg

926
00:56:47.580 --> 00:56:50.580
<v John Braithwaite>more seriously deserving of heavier punishment

927
00:56:50.580 --> 00:56:51.780
<v John Braithwaite>than armed robbery

928
00:56:52.480 --> 00:56:53.440
<v John Braithwaite>for example

929
00:56:54.820 --> 00:56:55.880
<v John Braithwaite>so that

930
00:56:56.480 --> 00:56:58.380
<v John Braithwaite>you know it's perceived with

931
00:56:58.380 --> 00:57:00.240
<v John Braithwaite>quite a degree of seriousness

932
00:57:00.240 --> 00:57:01.860
<v John Braithwaite>and that concern that exists

933
00:57:02.480 --> 00:57:03.660
<v John Braithwaite>out there in the community

934
00:57:04.480 --> 00:57:05.620
<v John Braithwaite>can be mobilised

935
00:57:05.620 --> 00:57:06.940
<v John Braithwaite>I mean I think basically

936
00:57:07.480 --> 00:57:08.180
<v John Braithwaite>Alan Fels

937
00:57:08.180 --> 00:57:09.820
<v John Braithwaite>did that

938
00:57:09.820 --> 00:57:13.140
<v John Braithwaite>as chair of the ACCC

939
00:57:13.140 --> 00:57:15.080
<v John Braithwaite>so there is a resource of

940
00:57:15.080 --> 00:57:17.000
<v John Braithwaite>community concern

941
00:57:17.000 --> 00:57:17.740
<v John Braithwaite>that's actually

942
00:57:17.740 --> 00:57:21.040
<v John Braithwaite>Michael Pusey was talking this morning about his data

943
00:57:21.040 --> 00:57:22.060
<v John Braithwaite>about people

944
00:57:22.060 --> 00:57:24.840
<v John Braithwaite>you know his middle Australian folks are saying

945
00:57:24.840 --> 00:57:26.060
<v John Braithwaite>that they want

946
00:57:26.060 --> 00:57:27.300
<v John Braithwaite>more

947
00:57:27.300 --> 00:57:29.700
<v John Braithwaite>you know tougher more genuine regulation

948
00:57:31.360 --> 00:57:33.440
<v John Braithwaite>of large corporate Australia

949
00:57:34.180 --> 00:57:35.900
<v Chair>I think at the back Mr

950
00:57:37.520 --> 00:57:37.960
<v Speaker 8>Leighton

951
00:57:37.960 --> 00:57:38.600
<v Speaker 8>a few

952
00:57:45.960 --> 00:57:48.600
<v Speaker 8>down to the fact that we're a great country

953
00:57:48.600 --> 00:57:56.060
<v Speaker 8>in helping us to, well, divert us away from real problems.

954
00:57:56.180 --> 00:58:00.740
<v Speaker 8>And I think the media and all that are very good at building it up

955
00:58:00.740 --> 00:58:01.900
<v Speaker 8>so we don't look at home.

956
00:58:01.980 --> 00:58:05.440
<v Speaker 8>And I want to point out something that is home

957
00:58:05.440 --> 00:58:07.940
<v Speaker 8>and we're really diverted away from it

958
00:58:07.940 --> 00:58:09.720
<v Speaker 8>that hardly is ever in the paper.

959
00:58:10.420 --> 00:58:12.060
<v Speaker 8>I come from Tennant Creek

960
00:58:12.060 --> 00:58:16.140
<v Speaker 8>and most people may see that in the paper every now and again.

961
00:58:16.180 --> 00:58:18.540
<v Speaker 8>I know Father Brendan would know it pretty well.

962
00:58:18.760 --> 00:58:21.600
<v Speaker 8>And I think that the asylum seekers, to a point,

963
00:58:21.620 --> 00:58:24.600
<v Speaker 8>is a bit of a diversion, no matter how sad it is.

964
00:58:24.680 --> 00:58:25.980
<v Speaker 8>And I do feel sad about it.

965
00:58:26.200 --> 00:58:29.240
<v Speaker 8>But I want to tell you a quick scenario

966
00:58:29.840 --> 00:58:34.720
<v Speaker 8>about a place up there where you do hear of it as being very violent.

967
00:58:35.360 --> 00:58:37.660
<v Speaker 8>Substance abuse is a rifle, it's all true.

968
00:58:38.660 --> 00:58:42.040
<v Speaker 8>You talk about children in those asylum centres.

969
00:58:42.060 --> 00:58:45.640
<v Speaker 8>I want to tell you about children that have been born in camps up there

970
00:58:45.640 --> 00:58:50.540
<v Speaker 8>purely because the grog truck broke down 60 years ago.

971
00:58:51.800 --> 00:58:54.200
<v Speaker 8>Children up there, Indigenous children,

972
00:58:54.460 --> 00:58:57.340
<v Speaker 8>live in four camps around that town

973
00:58:57.340 --> 00:59:00.820
<v Speaker 8>that were built there as a curfew

974
00:59:00.820 --> 00:59:03.460
<v Speaker 8>where the people were, Indigenous people,

975
00:59:03.640 --> 00:59:06.800
<v Speaker 8>were told to leave town at four o'clock

976
00:59:06.800 --> 00:59:08.740
<v Speaker 8>so the rest of the town could drink on.

977
00:59:10.000 --> 00:59:11.840
<v Speaker 8>Now, children there have been born.

978
00:59:11.860 --> 00:59:12.040
<v Speaker 8>In the past, they've been born in camps.

979
00:59:12.060 --> 00:59:18.080
<v Speaker 8>And last year, those children decided

980
00:59:18.080 --> 00:59:21.740
<v Speaker 8>they wanted to go to school in another state,

981
00:59:21.900 --> 00:59:22.900
<v Speaker 8>which was Queensland.

982
00:59:23.300 --> 00:59:27.080
<v Speaker 8>There was a big story in the Australian SBS, took it up.

983
00:59:27.480 --> 00:59:32.020
<v Speaker 8>And these children, purely because they wanted a bed to sleep in,

984
00:59:32.140 --> 00:59:35.460
<v Speaker 8>they wanted feed, that's what they call it, feed,

985
00:59:35.580 --> 00:59:38.620
<v Speaker 8>just like those asylum seekers in their own country

986
00:59:38.620 --> 00:59:41.100
<v Speaker 8>chose to come here to find that,

987
00:59:41.200 --> 00:59:42.040
<v Speaker 8>these children...

988
00:59:42.040 --> 00:59:43.780
<v Speaker 8>These children did the same thing.

989
00:59:43.980 --> 00:59:47.340
<v Speaker 8>They hopped on buses virtually in the middle of the night

990
00:59:47.340 --> 00:59:50.260
<v Speaker 8>and they escaped and they went to Queensland.

991
00:59:50.780 --> 00:59:53.840
<v Speaker 8>The paper wrote it up as they had escaped.

992
00:59:54.100 --> 00:59:56.440
<v Speaker 8>In fact, one politician called it blackbirding,

993
00:59:57.060 --> 01:00:01.040
<v Speaker 8>that they didn't have the right to go to another place

994
01:00:01.040 --> 01:00:04.600
<v Speaker 8>to get education and to get a bed and to get proper clothes.

995
01:00:05.320 --> 01:00:08.720
<v Speaker 8>These children and the families were treated as criminals.

996
01:00:10.740 --> 01:00:11.980
<v Speaker 8>They've come back.

997
01:00:13.400 --> 01:00:15.680
<v Speaker 8>Because of all sorts of circumstances,

998
01:00:15.700 --> 01:00:18.980
<v Speaker 8>very hard for the discipline to be disciplined and all that kind of thing.

999
01:00:19.140 --> 01:00:22.220
<v Speaker 8>And, of course, the town were waiting for them to come back as criminals

1000
01:00:22.220 --> 01:00:24.660
<v Speaker 8>and duly punished, of course.

1001
01:00:25.420 --> 01:00:27.100
<v Speaker 8>You know, they were the criminals now.

1002
01:00:27.900 --> 01:00:34.280
<v Speaker 8>So I'm interested in more about what happens at home,

1003
01:00:34.420 --> 01:00:38.620
<v Speaker 8>especially in places like that where camps have arisen

1004
01:00:38.620 --> 01:00:41.660
<v Speaker 8>out of situations where the people,

1005
01:00:42.040 --> 01:00:45.920
<v Speaker 8>haven't had any control and have had to leave their traditional lands.

1006
01:00:46.800 --> 01:00:52.360
<v Speaker 8>We don't, the media don't want the main populace to know about that kind of thing.

1007
01:00:53.460 --> 01:00:55.280
<v Speaker 8>We don't hear about it very often.

1008
01:00:55.560 --> 01:00:56.660
<v Chair>Sorry, is that your question?

1009
01:00:56.740 --> 01:01:00.340
<v Chair>Maybe we're focusing too much on things outside our backyard.

1010
01:01:00.680 --> 01:01:06.920
<v Speaker 8>Yeah, and the money's been poured in elsewhere and yet a home in these camps, you know.

1011
01:01:07.320 --> 01:01:07.880
<v Speaker 8>All right, okay.

1012
01:01:07.880 --> 01:01:11.820
<v Speaker 8>The fact that they do have to leave to go and get a better life is,

1013
01:01:12.040 --> 01:01:13.760
<v Speaker 8>is not even looked at at all.

1014
01:01:13.900 --> 01:01:14.600
<v Frank Brennan>Okay, thank you.

1015
01:01:16.360 --> 01:01:20.520
<v Frank Brennan>I'd just make the simple point that taking on board all that you've said,

1016
01:01:20.780 --> 01:01:23.920
<v Frank Brennan>I don't see a need to see it as an either or situation.

1017
01:01:24.500 --> 01:01:30.280
<v Frank Brennan>I think this is, this is a case where we can have our cake and eat it too.

1018
01:01:30.580 --> 01:01:36.360
<v Frank Brennan>It's a both and where we can say, well, look, actually it does cost money to keep men,

1019
01:01:36.480 --> 01:01:39.120
<v Frank Brennan>women and children in detention while we process their claims.

1020
01:01:39.280 --> 01:01:41.900
<v Frank Brennan>We could get back to what we used to do and what most

1021
01:01:41.900 --> 01:01:43.260
<v Frank Brennan>of the first world countries do.

1022
01:01:43.440 --> 01:01:46.700
<v Frank Brennan>We could allow them to live in the community while their claims are processed.

1023
01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:50.740
<v Frank Brennan>Once we've determined they're not a health, security or identity risk.

1024
01:01:51.040 --> 01:01:57.200
<v Frank Brennan>And at the same time, we could actually do more to facilitate the availability of education,

1025
01:01:57.640 --> 01:02:02.100
<v Frank Brennan>particularly secondary education for Aboriginal kids in remote areas.

1026
01:02:02.360 --> 01:02:07.120
<v Frank Brennan>And if that means making education available in some of the secondary schools,

1027
01:02:07.300 --> 01:02:10.580
<v Frank Brennan>for example in North Queensland, I think those kids went off to one

1028
01:02:10.580 --> 01:02:11.700
<v Frank Brennan>of the uniting church schools.

1029
01:02:11.720 --> 01:02:11.880
<v Frank Brennan>Okay.

1030
01:02:11.880 --> 01:02:12.840
<v Frank Brennan>And they were able to get up there around Cairns.

1031
01:02:12.960 --> 01:02:16.620
<v Frank Brennan>Now there were obviously complications about communication

1032
01:02:16.620 --> 01:02:18.360
<v Frank Brennan>as to who was making the decisions.

1033
01:02:18.720 --> 01:02:20.900
<v Frank Brennan>Get those lines of communication clear.

1034
01:02:21.060 --> 01:02:25.660
<v Frank Brennan>But by all means, let's do what we can to give a good education to those kids

1035
01:02:25.660 --> 01:02:27.620
<v Frank Brennan>if that's what they and their parents are seeking.

1036
01:02:28.320 --> 01:02:28.840
<v Frank Brennan>Okay.

1037
01:02:33.380 --> 01:02:34.980
<v Chair>Just a general question.

1038
01:02:35.800 --> 01:02:40.680
<v Audience>I'm losing faith in our judiciary with respect to, let's say, their sentencing decisions

1039
01:02:40.680 --> 01:02:41.860
<v Audience>of our children.

1040
01:02:41.860 --> 01:02:44.500
<v Frank Brennan>So let's say high profile, high flyers, CEOs.

1041
01:02:46.100 --> 01:02:50.720
<v Audience>Like I've heard today that Ronnie Adler, it's been recommended he be charged

1042
01:02:50.720 --> 01:02:52.380
<v Audience>with criminal actions.

1043
01:02:52.740 --> 01:02:58.120
<v Audience>Now I fear that, okay, once he's tried, sentenced, that will be appealed.

1044
01:02:58.120 --> 01:03:00.040
<v Audience>Sentence will be minimised or whatever.

1045
01:03:00.320 --> 01:03:05.280
<v Audience>And so they never seem to, let's say, get it right the first time.

1046
01:03:05.340 --> 01:03:11.020
<v Audience>So I'm just wondering if our judges, let's say if their remuneration ought to be tied to,

1047
01:03:11.020 --> 01:03:15.140
<v Audience>let's say, productivity or let's say the success in their sentencing.

1048
01:03:16.240 --> 01:03:17.060
<v Audience>You guys.

1049
01:03:23.460 --> 01:03:25.360
<v Chair>I'll take that as a comment.

1050
01:03:27.900 --> 01:03:28.720
<v Chair>At the back.

1051
01:03:30.760 --> 01:03:35.980
<v Speaker 8>My comment or question or whatever rides a little bit further

1052
01:03:35.980 --> 01:03:37.780
<v Speaker 8>on what the gentleman has just said.

1053
01:03:38.060 --> 01:03:40.640
<v Speaker 12>I've been puzzled by the paradigm

1054
01:03:40.640 --> 01:03:44.020
<v Speaker 12>within which the discussion has been conducted today,

1055
01:03:44.220 --> 01:03:50.660
<v Speaker 12>which is largely a matter of how can the criminal justice system do justice to everybody

1056
01:03:50.660 --> 01:03:55.140
<v Speaker 12>and how can victims and criminals be better dealt with.

1057
01:03:55.920 --> 01:03:59.320
<v Speaker 12>I think that the problem with the criminal justice system,

1058
01:04:00.280 --> 01:04:04.420
<v Speaker 12>that is an interesting angle, but I think it's not sufficient.

1059
01:04:05.720 --> 01:04:09.900
<v Speaker 12>I think that the criminal justice system has enormous problems

1060
01:04:09.900 --> 01:04:10.620
<v Speaker 12>with the criminal justice system.

1061
01:04:10.640 --> 01:04:14.080
<v Speaker 12>I think it's very constitutional and not just

1062
01:04:14.080 --> 01:04:21.560
<v Speaker 12>in the way our politicians behave, but in the way judges, magistrates

1063
01:04:21.560 --> 01:04:22.800
<v Speaker 12>and lawyers behave.

1064
01:04:24.020 --> 01:04:28.040
<v Speaker 12>I would like to suggest that with Di Fingleton, Peter Liddy,

1065
01:04:28.140 --> 01:04:31.280
<v Speaker 12>Peter Monaghan, Michael Frederick,

1066
01:04:31.380 --> 01:04:34.580
<v Speaker 12>and now we've got an Attorney General standing aside,

1067
01:04:36.640 --> 01:04:40.620
<v Speaker 12>that we in fact are looking at what I think Michael Pugh's

1068
01:04:40.440 --> 01:04:40.640
<v Speaker 12>!

1069
01:04:40.640 --> 01:04:41.600
<v Speaker 12>a few years ago was a few years ago a few years ago

1070
01:04:41.600 --> 01:04:49.400
<v Speaker 12>a few years ago a few years ago

1071
01:04:49.400 --> 01:04:54.460
<v Speaker 12>a few years ago a few years ago

1072
01:04:54.460 --> 01:04:58.020
<v Speaker 12>a few years ago a few years ago

1073
01:04:58.020 --> 01:04:58.300
<v Speaker 12>a few years ago a few years ago

1074
01:04:58.300 --> 01:04:58.320
<v Speaker 12>a few years ago a few years ago

1075
01:04:58.320 --> 01:04:59.260
<v Speaker 12>a few years ago a few years ago

1076
01:04:59.260 --> 01:05:00.560
<v Speaker 12>a few years ago a few years ago

1077
01:05:00.560 --> 01:05:00.920
<v Speaker 12>a few years ago a few years ago

1078
01:05:00.920 --> 01:05:00.940
<v Speaker 12>a few years ago a few years ago

1079
01:05:00.940 --> 01:05:01.120
<v Speaker 12>a few years ago a few years ago

1080
01:05:01.940 --> 01:05:03.760
<v Speaker 12>a few years ago a few years ago

1081
01:05:03.760 --> 01:05:06.480
<v Speaker 12>a few years ago a few years ago

1082
01:05:06.480 --> 01:05:07.940
<v Speaker 12>a few years ago a few years ago

1083
01:05:07.940 --> 01:05:10.280
<v Speaker 12>a few years ago a few years ago

1084
01:05:10.280 --> 01:05:13.980
<v Speaker 12>have a system we can even look to for any kind of reform whatsoever.

1085
01:05:20.820 --> 01:05:25.640
<v Chair>I think maybe you want a response. I just can't say that's another comment. I mean,

1086
01:05:25.660 --> 01:05:30.840
<v Chair>I think you're right. If I can speak as a lawyer and as somebody who trains law students to become

1087
01:05:30.840 --> 01:05:38.660
<v Chair>lawyers, that many of the problems you identify exist. But I think there are areas in which

1088
01:05:38.660 --> 01:05:43.460
<v Chair>lawyers and society has got better at regulating the conduct of lawyers and judges than it used to

1089
01:05:43.460 --> 01:05:49.000
<v Chair>do. And of course, we have had some fairly notorious cases of judges being put on trial,

1090
01:05:49.120 --> 01:05:53.720
<v Chair>rightly or wrongly, but judges are not immune to the criminal justice system as one of the cases

1091
01:05:53.720 --> 01:05:59.540
<v Chair>you mentioned, Peter Liddy, for example, proved. So lawyers are surely not beyond reproach,

1092
01:05:59.540 --> 01:06:03.780
<v Chair>but in some ways I think there are some signs that it's not perhaps as one-sided or as bleak

1093
01:06:03.780 --> 01:06:07.600
<v Chair>as you suggest. But I don't attempt, I'm not sitting here to make apologies on behalf of

1094
01:06:07.600 --> 01:06:08.340
<v Chair>all lawyers' conduct.

1095
01:06:08.660 --> 01:06:15.400
<v Speaker 12>Well, Liddy must have fallen for the ballot system at some point. I mean, his faults were

1096
01:06:15.400 --> 01:06:23.740
<v Speaker 12>committed back in the early 80s. He was then made the police tribunal judge for 15 years,

1097
01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:26.300
<v Speaker 12>presumably because he could be blackmailed.

1098
01:06:27.080 --> 01:06:28.000
<v Erik Olin Wright>Okay, thank you.

1099
01:06:28.060 --> 01:06:34.380
<v Erik Olin Wright>If I can make just one little comment. Let us imagine that we kept the general level of

1100
01:06:34.380 --> 01:06:38.640
<v Erik Olin Wright>social... I'll speak in the American context. Let's keep the general level of social...

1101
01:06:38.660 --> 01:06:45.540
<v Erik Olin Wright>injustice the way it is in the United States, but then get rid of all of the injustices

1102
01:06:45.540 --> 01:06:50.660
<v Erik Olin Wright>internal to the criminal justice system, the procedural injustices, the arbitrariness.

1103
01:06:50.720 --> 01:06:57.220
<v Erik Olin Wright>So let's make it a perfect machine against a background of severe inequality and social

1104
01:06:57.220 --> 01:07:00.920
<v Erik Olin Wright>injustice. Now, would that be a substantial improvement?

1105
01:07:02.360 --> 01:07:07.300
<v Erik Olin Wright>Well, it would be an improvement. Less arbitrariness is better than more arbitrariness.

1106
01:07:07.480 --> 01:07:07.740
<v Erik Olin Wright>Yes.

1107
01:07:08.000 --> 01:07:08.360
<v Erik Olin Wright>Yes.

1108
01:07:08.360 --> 01:07:08.640
<v Erik Olin Wright>Yes.

1109
01:07:08.660 --> 01:07:13.380
<v Erik Olin Wright>It's better than dishonest judges. But if it's operating against a backdrop of severe

1110
01:07:13.380 --> 01:07:18.480
<v Erik Olin Wright>social injustice with the devastation of central cities, with racial discrimination, with

1111
01:07:18.480 --> 01:07:24.980
<v Erik Olin Wright>massive poverty and so on, then I think the word justice and criminal justice is always

1112
01:07:24.980 --> 01:07:26.880
<v Erik Olin Wright>distorted and deformed.

1113
01:07:27.140 --> 01:07:31.360
<v Erik Olin Wright>On the other hand, if you had an imperfect criminal justice system with a certain amount

1114
01:07:31.360 --> 01:07:36.940
<v Erik Olin Wright>of corruption, a certain amount of arbitrariness, but against a background of social equality

1115
01:07:36.940 --> 01:07:38.640
<v Erik Olin Wright>and social justice, then the truth would be a few

1116
01:07:38.660 --> 01:07:40.780
<v Erik Olin Wright>then it wouldn't do so much damage.

1117
01:07:42.320 --> 01:07:48.800
<v Erik Olin Wright>So my own view is that a political challenge to privilege and inequality and poverty,

1118
01:07:49.220 --> 01:07:55.860
<v Erik Olin Wright>the social injustices that define the context within which the criminal justice system operates,

1119
01:07:56.020 --> 01:07:57.140
<v Erik Olin Wright>is the priority.

1120
01:07:58.220 --> 01:08:00.860
<v Erik Olin Wright>But of course it's politically much more difficult

1121
01:08:00.860 --> 01:08:07.060
<v Erik Olin Wright>than to deal with the procedural and internal functionings of the machinery itself.

1122
01:08:12.980 --> 01:08:15.460
<v John Braithwaite>I don't disagree with any of that, Eric,

1123
01:08:15.540 --> 01:08:18.900
<v John Braithwaite>but I do think much more than I used to

1124
01:08:19.640 --> 01:08:22.480
<v John Braithwaite>that the evidence leads us to the view

1125
01:08:22.480 --> 01:08:30.780
<v John Braithwaite>that the criminal justice system is a more fundamental cause of injustice in our society than we used to.

1126
01:08:30.780 --> 01:08:35.220
<v John Braithwaite>I used to be very big on the idea on these platforms

1127
01:08:35.220 --> 01:08:37.220
<v John Braithwaite>that if you want to struggle against injustice,

1128
01:08:37.560 --> 01:08:38.520
<v John Braithwaite>you know, it's...

1129
01:08:38.520 --> 01:08:40.180
<v John Braithwaite>Institutionally, the economy and so on.

1130
01:08:40.260 --> 01:08:44.640
<v John Braithwaite>But if you look at the condition of Aboriginal Australians, for example,

1131
01:08:45.220 --> 01:08:49.220
<v John Braithwaite>you know, the evidence becomes increasingly clear

1132
01:08:49.220 --> 01:08:57.620
<v John Braithwaite>that the criminal justice system is a really major cause of the poverty of Aboriginal Australians.

1133
01:08:58.040 --> 01:09:00.000
<v John Braithwaite>And, you know, we used to have,

1134
01:09:00.140 --> 01:09:05.620
<v John Braithwaite>and I referred to some of that literature on unemployment as a cause of crime.

1135
01:09:05.860 --> 01:09:08.300
<v John Braithwaite>It's also the case that we,

1136
01:09:08.520 --> 01:09:12.200
<v John Braithwaite>and you were talking about some of that evidence from the US to me just last night,

1137
01:09:12.300 --> 01:09:15.540
<v John Braithwaite>that the evidence is getting more and more powerful

1138
01:09:15.540 --> 01:09:19.900
<v John Braithwaite>that having a criminal record is a massive cause of unemployment.

1139
01:09:20.900 --> 01:09:21.700
<v John Braithwaite>You just...

1140
01:09:22.160 --> 01:09:25.300
<v John Braithwaite>You know, the extent to which you don't have a chance out there,

1141
01:09:26.080 --> 01:09:27.140
<v John Braithwaite>especially if you're black,

1142
01:09:27.300 --> 01:09:30.020
<v John Braithwaite>if you have a criminal record, is profound.

1143
01:09:30.600 --> 01:09:32.460
<v Chair>I think we have time for one last question,

1144
01:09:32.540 --> 01:09:34.340
<v Chair>and I see one lone questioner there,

1145
01:09:34.420 --> 01:09:36.460
<v Chair>so I think you're going to finish this off, so to speak.

1146
01:09:37.180 --> 01:09:38.380
<v Audience>This is to you, Father.

1147
01:09:38.520 --> 01:09:39.260
<v Audience>Thank you, Father Frank Brennan.

1148
01:09:39.920 --> 01:09:43.000
<v Audience>Given that, for most children,

1149
01:09:44.140 --> 01:09:46.280
<v Frank Brennan>all relocation is trauma,

1150
01:09:47.500 --> 01:09:52.080
<v Audience>and seeing one's parents humiliated is trauma,

1151
01:09:52.960 --> 01:09:57.440
<v Audience>and losing one's playmates overnight is trauma,

1152
01:09:57.680 --> 01:10:02.760
<v Audience>and being locked up behind razor wire is trauma,

1153
01:10:03.680 --> 01:10:07.420
<v Audience>and given that the legal guardian of all the children in detention

1154
01:10:07.420 --> 01:10:08.500
<v Audience>is Philip Rees,

1155
01:10:10.660 --> 01:10:16.140
<v Audience>can Philip Ruddock be charged in law with child abuse?

1156
01:10:23.420 --> 01:10:25.960
<v Audience>And can he be sent to jail for it?

1157
01:10:28.020 --> 01:10:30.280
<v Frank Brennan>Well, if only you were the Prime Minister, Bob.

1158
01:10:31.400 --> 01:10:32.060
<v Frank Brennan>Thank you.

1159
01:10:39.380 --> 01:10:43.580
<v Frank Brennan>I mean, these are clearly places of institutionalised child abuse,

1160
01:10:43.800 --> 01:10:47.760
<v Frank Brennan>and in years to come, people will look back with shock and horror

1161
01:10:47.760 --> 01:10:49.720
<v Frank Brennan>and say, how did we let this happen?

1162
01:10:49.840 --> 01:10:52.780
<v Frank Brennan>We've had similar instances with the Stolen Generation

1163
01:10:52.780 --> 01:10:54.220
<v Frank Brennan>and questions of that sort.

1164
01:10:54.580 --> 01:10:59.080
<v Frank Brennan>What we do have is a legal regime where there is a Migration Act

1165
01:10:59.080 --> 01:11:00.760
<v Frank Brennan>which set up this.

1166
01:11:01.020 --> 01:11:05.480
<v Frank Brennan>We all have to own that it has enjoyed bipartisan support to date.

1167
01:11:05.680 --> 01:11:08.080
<v Frank Brennan>We also have to own that it was the Labor Party

1168
01:11:08.080 --> 01:11:09.680
<v Frank Brennan>that first instituted it,

1169
01:11:09.740 --> 01:11:12.100
<v Frank Brennan>but that Philip Ruddock has perfected it,

1170
01:11:12.220 --> 01:11:16.460
<v Frank Brennan>and that what we're confronted with is the ongoing realisation

1171
01:11:17.300 --> 01:11:20.040
<v Frank Brennan>that what has been done to children, in part,

1172
01:11:20.100 --> 01:11:23.780
<v Frank Brennan>was because of an almost unwitting change

1173
01:11:23.780 --> 01:11:28.120
<v Frank Brennan>which was made in instituting the three-year temporary protection visa,

1174
01:11:28.340 --> 01:11:32.940
<v Frank Brennan>which would then not allow people to bring members of their family.

1175
01:11:33.020 --> 01:11:36.540
<v Frank Brennan>If you place yourself in the stereotypical situation,

1176
01:11:36.860 --> 01:11:38.060
<v Frank Brennan>if you are a member of a political party,

1177
01:11:38.060 --> 01:11:44.720
<v Frank Brennan>are a family unit and you are fleeing persecution, and I mean really fleeing persecution, what

1178
01:11:44.720 --> 01:11:50.960
<v Frank Brennan>would most families do? They would send the father and husband to find a bolt hold where

1179
01:11:50.960 --> 01:11:56.040
<v Frank Brennan>once they had found security, then in safety they could bring the wife and the children.

1180
01:11:56.340 --> 01:12:02.300
<v Frank Brennan>What Australia did, it led the world in saying our only obligation is to give protection

1181
01:12:02.300 --> 01:12:07.880
<v Frank Brennan>to the person who has arrived here. We have no obligation, even if they're proven to be

1182
01:12:07.880 --> 01:12:13.780
<v Frank Brennan>refugees, even if they're proven to have directly fled, we have no obligation to allow

1183
01:12:13.780 --> 01:12:18.740
<v Frank Brennan>their family members to join them, and so then who was on the next load of boats? The

1184
01:12:18.740 --> 01:12:25.180
<v Frank Brennan>women and the kids. And so it's been precisely the policy that we set up, being half smart,

1185
01:12:25.340 --> 01:12:30.860
<v Frank Brennan>thinking we could prove ourselves less decent than any other First World country, that put

1186
01:12:30.860 --> 01:12:35.440
<v Frank Brennan>the kids there in such numbers in the first place, and it's been our political obstinacy

1187
01:12:36.000 --> 01:12:37.180
<v Frank Brennan>that's kept them there in the second.

1188
01:12:37.180 --> 01:12:42.540
<v Frank Brennan>And so clearly these are places of abuse, there is no doubt about who is responsible

1189
01:12:42.540 --> 01:12:48.320
<v Frank Brennan>for them, but under the law of the land we do not have a Bill of Rights. There is a Migration

1190
01:12:48.320 --> 01:12:55.680
<v Frank Brennan>Act which isolates the Minister in his responsibility and he's legally in the clear. We think he's

1191
01:12:55.680 --> 01:13:00.700
<v Frank Brennan>morally reprehensible, but of course the Australian majority still gives it the tick.

1192
01:13:10.480 --> 01:13:15.400
<v Chair>Okay, I think I'd like to thank the three panellists for providing a wide ranging and

1193
01:13:15.400 --> 01:13:20.860
<v Chair>indeed provocative, if not at times defamatory account of crime and punishment in Australia.

1194
01:13:20.920 --> 01:13:26.200
<v Chair>I won't go back to that particular defamation, John. But could you join me in showing your

1195
01:13:26.200 --> 01:13:26.480
<v Chair>appreciation?

1196
01:13:26.940 --> 01:13:27.520
<v Chair>Thank you.

1197
01:13:28.880 --> 01:13:29.480
<v Chair>Thank you.

1198
01:13:31.420 --> 01:13:31.840
<v Chair>Thank you.

1199
01:13:37.180 --> 01:13:37.900
<v Chair>Thank you.