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<v Chair>Well, good afternoon, everybody.

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<v Chair>I'm really pleased to welcome you to this session on plague.

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<v Chair>My name's Fran Baum, and I'm Professor of Public Health at Flinders University.

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<v Chair>I was thinking that 20 years ago or 10 years ago,

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<v Chair>I doubt whether we would have had a session on plague.

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<v Chair>We would have been safe in the belief that plague was a thing of the past.

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<v Chair>But now plague is well and truly back on the agenda.

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<v Chair>HIV, AIDS, SARS has made that part of our society.

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<v Chair>And as the program suggests, plague really summons forth moral judgments

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<v Chair>and fears that are very deeply culturally rooted.

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<v Chair>And I think today we've got four speakers who can really help us unpack

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<v Chair>one of the most feared phenomena of human existence.

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<v Chair>And we'll be looking at the topic from a historical perspective,

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<v Chair>a public health and epidemiological view, a biological view,

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<v Chair>and a sociological lens, and considering the human rights dimensions.

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<v Chair>What I want to do is just...

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<v Chair>I want to just very briefly tell you about each speaker,

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<v Chair>and then there'll be minimal interruption to what they have to say,

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<v Chair>which will increase our time for discussion.

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<v Chair>And I'm just going to introduce them in the order that they're going to speak.

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<v Chair>Our first speaker is Professor Fiona Stanley,

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<v Chair>who I'm sure most people will know and have been very aware of this year

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<v Chair>as our Australian of the Year,

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<v Chair>and also as the Foundation Director of the Telephone Institute of Child Health Research

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<v Chair>at the University of Western Australia.

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<v Chair>Those of you who have seen her speaking in her role

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<v Chair>will know that she's a tireless promoter of prevention and health promotion,

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<v Chair>and as a public health person, we couldn't be prouder

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<v Chair>than to have a public health person as Australian of the Year.

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<v Chair>Unity Dow, I'm sure, is already familiar to many of you.

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<v Chair>She's Botswana's first high court judge, a human rights lawyer,

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<v Chair>and perhaps most unusually, a novelist.

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<v Chair>Many of you may have been at the launch of what I think is her second novel,

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<v Chair>or maybe even third novel.

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<v Chair>I'm sorry.

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<v Chair>Third novel.

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<v Chair>So I'm sure she will bring both a creative and a legal perspective to our discussions.

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<v Chair>Professor Redmond Hanlon is a biographer of natural history

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<v Chair>and I guess combining biology and history in the perspective that he will bring to us.

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<v Chair>He comes from the University of Oxford in the UK.

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<v Chair>And our final speaker is Dennis Altman,

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<v Chair>who's the Professor of Politics at La Trobe University.

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<v Chair>He's a well-known cultural commentator in Australia.

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<v Chair>He's also a...

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<v Chair>He's a novelist.

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<v Chair>And he has, of course, written extensively on HIV and sexuality.

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<v Chair>So I think we've got a wonderful menu of speakers coming up.

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<v Chair>And on that note, I'll introduce us to our first speaker, Professor Fiona Stanley.

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<v Chair>APPLAUSE

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you very much, Fran.

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<v Speaker 2>And thank you to the organisers for inviting me.

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<v Speaker 2>I've always wanted to come to a Festival of Ideas,

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<v Speaker 2>and here I am, and it's just great.

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm enjoying myself enormously.

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<v Speaker 2>And as all my family members,

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<v Speaker 2>my family came from Adelaide,

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<v Speaker 2>my parents met at Unley High School.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just, you know, I feel I'm part of the furniture, really.

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<v Speaker 2>What I want to do is take a historical perspective

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<v Speaker 2>of how organisms and humankind have interacted and lived together

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<v Speaker 2>and to really put the thesis to you that organisms aren't evil.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, Ebola virus is evil and so on.

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<v Speaker 2>It's actually not true.

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<v Speaker 2>Organisms are just trying to survive like everyone else on the planet.

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<v Speaker 2>And so there are a couple of factors that are, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>there are sort of three factors in the interaction,

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<v Speaker 2>interaction between humans and organisms.

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<v Speaker 2>And one, of course, is the organism itself.

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<v Speaker 2>And organisms actually can be very good as well as being very bad

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<v Speaker 2>and causing bad things.

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<v Speaker 2>And in fact, you wouldn't be able to survive

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<v Speaker 2>unless you had all those good organisms inside you

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<v Speaker 2>digesting your food and helping you in many other ways.

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<v Speaker 2>It just happens that every so often,

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<v Speaker 2>one that gets in that's virulent and causes some disease

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<v Speaker 2>and then that you consider all organisms to be bad.

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<v Speaker 2>But certainly, they perform an incredibly useful function,

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<v Speaker 2>and they are changing and adapting to the ways and things

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<v Speaker 2>that humans do together and to each other.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's why they adapt so beautifully,

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<v Speaker 2>because they want to survive.

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<v Speaker 2>They're not necessarily evil.

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<v Speaker 2>It just so happens along the way, some of them knock us off.

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<v Speaker 2>The second factor that enhances or otherwise our relationship

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<v Speaker 2>with the organism is ourselves, our immune system, our nutrition,

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<v Speaker 2>what we do.

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<v Speaker 2>do our practices the way we live and of course our immune system that's where the word immunity

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<v Speaker 2>comes from and with vaccination what you do or when you're getting an infection what you do is

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<v Speaker 2>you build up an immunity to some infections not always but but most infections you build up an

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<v Speaker 2>immunity and that's the sort of basis of vaccination but that immune system can be affected by a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of things it can be affected by your nutritional status whether you've got cancer a whole lot of

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<v Speaker 2>other things and so but it's very important that this balance between the virulence of the organism

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<v Speaker 2>and the host resistance as we call it other things which make that interaction are the one where you

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<v Speaker 2>get overwhelmed by the infection or you can overwhelm the infection because your immune

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<v Speaker 2>system is so strong and of course there are some organisms which are very difficult you just haven't

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<v Speaker 2>got a chance other organisms it is a battle and with some organisms again the host is all powerful

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<v Speaker 2>and then the third factor which is absolutely vital to this interaction is the environment

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<v Speaker 2>in which all this is happening so if you're in a tropical environment and you've got insect vectors

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<v Speaker 2>and you've got animals and other things then there may be transmission that's much more likely to

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<v Speaker 2>happen the hygienic circumstances the overcrowding the geography plane travel population size is

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<v Speaker 2>actually incredibly important we didn't have epidemics really until populations were big

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<v Speaker 2>enough to sustain them and that's why aboriginal populations for example were very susceptible to

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<v Speaker 2>infections that we'd got used to like measles and other diseases and so on and so forth and so on and so

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<v Speaker 2>off

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<v Speaker 2>so when we uh emerged from our hunter-gatherer existence and started becoming agricultural

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<v Speaker 2>beings and getting into large conglomerates um we in fact then started to get the very famous

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<v Speaker 2>plagues that uh you've read about in history which i find absolutely fascinating because

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<v Speaker 2>when you look at the things like the uh history um of plagues on the planet they've been incredibly

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<v Speaker 2>important they've been more powerful than wars in dictating where populations ended up and what

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<v Speaker 2>happened to them and uh i think that's an amazing uh

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<v Speaker 2>people. And in the Black Death, for example, possibly the most famous plague, except for

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<v Speaker 2>now, I guess, HIV-AIDS is going to be another famous one. It dictated so much about what

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<v Speaker 2>happened in Europe. I mean, the mortality during the Black Death in some places was nearly 50%.

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<v Speaker 2>It brought down the feudal system in Great Britain. There were a whole lot of things that

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<v Speaker 2>happened because of this incredible plague that was so powerful. And of course, all of the myths

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<v Speaker 2>that surrounded it led to the flagellation movement in Germany, the first killing of the

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<v Speaker 2>Jews who were blamed for bringing the plague into towns, and so on and so forth. And of course,

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<v Speaker 2>the conditions around the time of the plague in the 13th and 14th centuries were absolutely perfect

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<v Speaker 2>for this host-organism environment interaction that I've mentioned. There was dramatic increase

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<v Speaker 2>in population at that time. There were famines that recurred, so that people were very malnourished,

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<v Speaker 2>and people started to travel across.

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<v Speaker 2>And of course, that increased dramatically. And then, of course, we've had things like measles

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<v Speaker 2>epidemics, and the whole epidemiology of measles was worked out in the Faroe Islands when a group

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<v Speaker 2>had actually been on the island and 65 years before had actually been infected with measles.

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<v Speaker 2>A seafaring sailor arrived on the island with measles, and everyone who was under 65 got measles.

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<v Speaker 2>And of course, they worked out the sort of, you know, the prodromal period and all of these sorts

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<v Speaker 2>of things from this one epidemic on the Faroe Islands. And of course, it was a dramatic infection.

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<v Speaker 2>This is in the 1850s, when people, in fact, were not very well fed. And what happened was that

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<v Speaker 2>people were so ill under the age of 65 that all of the over 65s had to look after everybody else,

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<v Speaker 2>and those who didn't have anybody at that age actually died from inanition. So it was a very

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<v Speaker 2>amazing epidemic.

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<v Speaker 2>And of course, we've eradicated because there is a vaccine, and it was a virus that, in fact,

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<v Speaker 2>enabled us to get lifelong immunity. Polio is another epidemic that we have virtually eradicated

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<v Speaker 2>and could worldwide, if we put our main to it, our sort of grist to the mill, if it were. And HIV,

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<v Speaker 2>AIDS, of course, which others are going to talk about in more detail. And I just want to touch

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<v Speaker 2>on two more things before I sit down and let everyone else talk. I guess people are frightened.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I've tried to talk about it, but I've never done it. I've tried to talk about it, but I've

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<v Speaker 2>never done it. I've tried to put this theory to you that organisms aren't evil, it's just that they

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<v Speaker 2>want to survive, and they use the human host on their way. But I guess people are frightened of

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<v Speaker 2>plagues and frightened of infections because they're so unpredictable, and also because for

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<v Speaker 2>many of them, we don't have any treatments. You may think that medical science has solved

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<v Speaker 2>everything, but of course, for things like smallpox came back, actually don't have a

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<v Speaker 2>treatment for smallpox. We don't have a treatment for many of the viruses. Bacteria are a different

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<v Speaker 2>thing. Viruses, we don't have a lot of treatments for. And so they're very, very, very, very

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<v Speaker 2>scary. We don't have a treatment, really, for polio. And so these things are scary. So if smallpox

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<v Speaker 2>comes back, we would be very much affected by it. And so the message that I want to end with,

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<v Speaker 2>I think, which was the kind of thing that the hope part of all of this fear about infections,

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<v Speaker 2>is that prevention and knowledge about how infections are caused, interrupting the cycle

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<v Speaker 2>of transmission, being able to vaccinate, so host resistance, and then the other thing that I want to

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<v Speaker 2>say is that if the resistance is increased, is obviously the best way to go. So if we can

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<v Speaker 2>actually look at the conditions in which infections occur, like if in Aboriginal communities we could

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<v Speaker 2>improve living conditions so that infections didn't occur in those people, if we can get the

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<v Speaker 2>good vaccines, if we can avoid drug resistance, if we can increase the health and nutritional

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<v Speaker 2>status of people, particularly in the third world, and look at all of the factors that

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<v Speaker 2>enhance infection and prevent them, then we'd be in a very much stronger position

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<v Speaker 2>to decrease the number of infections. So I think that's a very,

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<v Speaker 2>good idea.

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<v Speaker 2>13

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<v Chair>Our next speaker is Justice Unity Dow.

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<v Unity dow>Thank you very much.

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<v Unity dow>I have a question before I start.

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<v Unity dow>Will anybody in the audience raise their hand

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<v Unity dow>if they have been in the last six months

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<v Unity dow>to more than six funerals?

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<v Unity dow>If you've attended six funerals in the last six months.

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<v Unity dow>No.

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<v Unity dow>Three?

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<v Unity dow>Three people have attended at least three funerals

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<v Unity dow>in the last six months.

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<v Unity dow>One?

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<v Unity dow>Well, in the last six months,

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<v Unity dow>I have attended nine funerals.

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<v Unity dow>Okay?

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<v Unity dow>Of people who have died of AIDS.

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<v Unity dow>And that is because I've attended so few

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<v Unity dow>because I live away from my village.

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<v Unity dow>And therefore, I don't get to attend every funeral

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<v Unity dow>that I'm expected to attend.

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<v Unity dow>I can always find an excuse to say I was working over the weekend

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<v Unity dow>or I was burying somebody who I work with.

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<v Unity dow>But my mother, for example,

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<v Unity dow>would have attended more than 30 funerals

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<v Unity dow>in the last six months.

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<v Unity dow>The last six months.

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<v Unity dow>And she would do it because she's expected to.

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<v Unity dow>They're close enough either because they're relatives

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<v Unity dow>or because they're in the same neighborhood

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<v Unity dow>or she works or she knows somebody in that family.

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<v Unity dow>That is the reality of HIV AIDS in Botswana right now.

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<v Unity dow>I would like to embrace the organism,

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<v Unity dow>acknowledge that it just needs to live.

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<v Unity dow>I wish it didn't have to live in people.

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<v Unity dow>Okay?

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<v Unity dow>Just also, two very short case studies

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<v Unity dow>to demonstrate how HIV AIDS affects people

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<v Unity dow>on a day-to-day basis at home.

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<v Unity dow>And very quickly, some of the issues that arise

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<v Unity dow>as a result of that.

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<v Unity dow>I work with a team of about six people in my court

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<v Unity dow>in terms of the interpreter, the stenographer,

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<v Unity dow>people like that.

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<v Unity dow>About six people.

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<v Unity dow>And one of them,

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<v Unity dow>one of them has been sick on and off

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<v Unity dow>for more than three months.

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<v Unity dow>It was about a year ago.

207
00:13:21.220 --> 00:13:22.180
<v Unity dow>For about more than three months,

208
00:13:22.280 --> 00:13:23.400
<v Unity dow>she wasn't always coming to work.

209
00:13:23.460 --> 00:13:25.220
<v Unity dow>At the last minute, she wouldn't come.

210
00:13:25.400 --> 00:13:27.820
<v Unity dow>She would have to find somebody else to come and fill in.

211
00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:29.560
<v Unity dow>It went on and off until one day

212
00:13:29.560 --> 00:13:30.560
<v Unity dow>she didn't come to work anymore

213
00:13:31.040 --> 00:13:32.840
<v Unity dow>after this continued for a long time.

214
00:13:33.220 --> 00:13:35.520
<v Unity dow>And then she calls me from a hospital

215
00:13:35.520 --> 00:13:38.520
<v Unity dow>which is more than 300 kilometers from where we work

216
00:13:38.520 --> 00:13:40.120
<v Unity dow>because that's her home village.

217
00:13:40.300 --> 00:13:41.240
<v Unity dow>And she's like,

218
00:13:41.380 --> 00:13:42.420
<v Unity dow>Justice Dow, I'm dying.

219
00:13:42.560 --> 00:13:43.480
<v Unity dow>I'm dying.

220
00:13:43.580 --> 00:13:43.920
<v Unity dow>I'm dying.

221
00:13:43.940 --> 00:13:44.400
<v Unity dow>I need help.

222
00:13:44.720 --> 00:13:45.220
<v Unity dow>And then she calls me.

223
00:13:45.240 --> 00:13:47.240
<v Unity dow>The phone goes dead

224
00:13:47.240 --> 00:13:48.140
<v Unity dow>because it was a cell phone

225
00:13:48.140 --> 00:13:49.820
<v Unity dow>and because she couldn't speak after that.

226
00:13:51.340 --> 00:13:52.540
<v Unity dow>About two weeks later,

227
00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:55.480
<v Unity dow>she was well enough after getting rehydrated.

228
00:13:55.520 --> 00:13:58.540
<v Unity dow>She was able to come to Lobata where I work.

229
00:13:59.880 --> 00:14:01.240
<v Unity dow>And my secretary says,

230
00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:01.680
<v Unity dow>you know,

231
00:14:01.700 --> 00:14:02.440
<v Unity dow>so-and-so is downstairs.

232
00:14:02.660 --> 00:14:03.600
<v Unity dow>She wants to talk to you.

233
00:14:03.660 --> 00:14:04.040
<v Unity dow>So I said, well,

234
00:14:04.120 --> 00:14:05.080
<v Unity dow>ask her to come in.

235
00:14:05.100 --> 00:14:06.480
<v Unity dow>She says, no, she cannot go up the stairs.

236
00:14:06.680 --> 00:14:08.160
<v Unity dow>It is not a very steep,

237
00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:08.540
<v Unity dow>you know,

238
00:14:08.560 --> 00:14:08.980
<v Unity dow>it's normal,

239
00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:10.200
<v Unity dow>just one floor up.

240
00:14:10.280 --> 00:14:11.420
<v Unity dow>She could not come up to the office.

241
00:14:11.900 --> 00:14:12.860
<v Unity dow>So I go down

242
00:14:12.860 --> 00:14:14.060
<v Unity dow>and she's like,

243
00:14:14.100 --> 00:14:14.700
<v Unity dow>you know,

244
00:14:14.740 --> 00:14:15.100
<v Unity dow>crumbled,

245
00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:15.840
<v Unity dow>then she says,

246
00:14:15.880 --> 00:14:16.020
<v Unity dow>you know,

247
00:14:16.060 --> 00:14:16.560
<v Unity dow>I'm dying.

248
00:14:16.800 --> 00:14:17.700
<v Unity dow>I'm dying.

249
00:14:17.920 --> 00:14:18.340
<v Unity dow>So I said, look,

250
00:14:19.540 --> 00:14:20.860
<v Unity dow>I ask her the question,

251
00:14:21.020 --> 00:14:21.500
<v Unity dow>you know,

252
00:14:22.220 --> 00:14:24.140
<v Unity dow>have you had an HIV test done?

253
00:14:24.280 --> 00:14:25.920
<v Unity dow>Do you think you may actually have,

254
00:14:26.020 --> 00:14:26.460
<v Unity dow>you know,

255
00:14:26.460 --> 00:14:28.580
<v Unity dow>AIDS-defining illness?

256
00:14:29.660 --> 00:14:31.320
<v Unity dow>Nobody had ever asked her that question.

257
00:14:31.880 --> 00:14:33.940
<v Unity dow>Although everybody saw her sick

258
00:14:33.940 --> 00:14:35.240
<v Unity dow>all over the months

259
00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:37.680
<v Unity dow>and although she was really on the death store,

260
00:14:37.780 --> 00:14:38.080
<v Unity dow>you know,

261
00:14:38.100 --> 00:14:39.320
<v Unity dow>she was almost dying,

262
00:14:39.520 --> 00:14:41.040
<v Unity dow>nobody had had the courage

263
00:14:41.040 --> 00:14:42.680
<v Unity dow>to ask her that question.

264
00:14:43.860 --> 00:14:45.080
<v Unity dow>And although she had been,

265
00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:46.040
<v Unity dow>in and out of hospital

266
00:14:46.040 --> 00:14:47.120
<v Unity dow>for more than six months,

267
00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:50.980
<v Unity dow>because of the regulations

268
00:14:50.980 --> 00:14:56.000
<v Unity dow>that the health professional

269
00:14:56.540 --> 00:14:58.640
<v Unity dow>cannot test you for HIV AIDS

270
00:14:58.640 --> 00:15:00.480
<v Unity dow>unless you have pre-test counseling.

271
00:15:01.020 --> 00:15:01.540
<v Unity dow>Okay?

272
00:15:01.920 --> 00:15:04.000
<v Unity dow>And often you just have one doctor

273
00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:05.020
<v Unity dow>and a few nurses,

274
00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:06.160
<v Unity dow>you know,

275
00:15:06.160 --> 00:15:08.260
<v Unity dow>and there is nobody to offer

276
00:15:08.260 --> 00:15:09.460
<v Unity dow>the pre-test counseling.

277
00:15:09.920 --> 00:15:11.460
<v Unity dow>Or often people think,

278
00:15:11.560 --> 00:15:11.860
<v Unity dow>you know,

279
00:15:11.880 --> 00:15:13.420
<v Unity dow>before I have any other,

280
00:15:14.280 --> 00:15:14.380
<v Unity dow>um,

281
00:15:15.860 --> 00:15:16.220
<v Unity dow>help,

282
00:15:16.420 --> 00:15:16.600
<v Unity dow>you know,

283
00:15:16.640 --> 00:15:17.580
<v Unity dow>medical help or anything else,

284
00:15:17.620 --> 00:15:18.780
<v Unity dow>nobody pre-tests,

285
00:15:18.900 --> 00:15:19.100
<v Unity dow>I mean,

286
00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:20.040
<v Unity dow>pre-counsels me.

287
00:15:20.420 --> 00:15:20.860
<v Unity dow>You know,

288
00:15:20.900 --> 00:15:22.300
<v Unity dow>if you are going to have a TB test,

289
00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:23.420
<v Unity dow>people give you a TB test.

290
00:15:23.740 --> 00:15:25.620
<v Unity dow>If you are going to have a pregnancy test,

291
00:15:25.700 --> 00:15:26.800
<v Unity dow>people give you a pregnancy test.

292
00:15:27.040 --> 00:15:27.820
<v Unity dow>If you are going to have,

293
00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:28.520
<v Unity dow>you know,

294
00:15:28.580 --> 00:15:28.720
<v Unity dow>um,

295
00:15:28.840 --> 00:15:29.840
<v Unity dow>check whether your bones,

296
00:15:29.940 --> 00:15:30.240
<v Unity dow>nobody,

297
00:15:30.600 --> 00:15:31.620
<v Unity dow>there is not the fuss,

298
00:15:31.740 --> 00:15:32.460
<v Unity dow>the kind of fuss

299
00:15:32.460 --> 00:15:34.620
<v Unity dow>that seems to surround HIV AIDS

300
00:15:34.620 --> 00:15:35.200
<v Unity dow>and therefore,

301
00:15:35.320 --> 00:15:35.980
<v Unity dow>in a way,

302
00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:37.260
<v Unity dow>frightens almost everybody,

303
00:15:37.420 --> 00:15:37.960
<v Unity dow>you know,

304
00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:38.260
<v Unity dow>into,

305
00:15:38.340 --> 00:15:39.340
<v Unity dow>into retreating.

306
00:15:40.100 --> 00:15:41.000
<v Unity dow>And not saying,

307
00:15:41.040 --> 00:15:41.660
<v Unity dow>I'd rather not,

308
00:15:41.700 --> 00:15:42.040
<v Unity dow>you know,

309
00:15:42.100 --> 00:15:43.600
<v Unity dow>because I'd rather not be tested.

310
00:15:43.800 --> 00:15:45.040
<v Unity dow>So there is very little testing,

311
00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:45.760
<v Unity dow>because of that.

312
00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:47.120
<v Unity dow>And there aren't,

313
00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:48.600
<v Unity dow>besides the fact that the resources

314
00:15:48.600 --> 00:15:50.060
<v Unity dow>are really not there to pre-test,

315
00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:51.620
<v Unity dow>to pre-counsel everybody.

316
00:15:52.660 --> 00:15:53.140
<v Unity dow>Um,

317
00:15:53.300 --> 00:15:54.060
<v Unity dow>so finally,

318
00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:54.560
<v Unity dow>I said,

319
00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:54.860
<v Unity dow>okay,

320
00:15:54.960 --> 00:15:55.280
<v Unity dow>you know,

321
00:15:55.280 --> 00:15:58.640
<v Unity dow>I will take you to have an HIV test done.

322
00:15:59.060 --> 00:16:00.680
<v Unity dow>And there are ARVs,

323
00:16:00.680 --> 00:16:01.840
<v Unity dow>there are antiretroviral drugs,

324
00:16:02.020 --> 00:16:03.620
<v Unity dow>and you can become better.

325
00:16:04.020 --> 00:16:05.200
<v Unity dow>She is now working,

326
00:16:05.220 --> 00:16:05.900
<v Unity dow>she has not missed,

327
00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:06.300
<v Unity dow>you know,

328
00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:07.000
<v Unity dow>a day since,

329
00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:07.760
<v Unity dow>you know,

330
00:16:07.760 --> 00:16:09.460
<v Unity dow>she came back to work last year.

331
00:16:09.560 --> 00:16:10.440
<v Unity dow>She is,

332
00:16:10.440 --> 00:16:10.880
<v Unity dow>um,

333
00:16:11.420 --> 00:16:12.080
<v Unity dow>doing very,

334
00:16:12.160 --> 00:16:12.900
<v Unity dow>very well on,

335
00:16:12.920 --> 00:16:14.020
<v Unity dow>on ARVs.

336
00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:15.840
<v Unity dow>But,

337
00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:16.500
<v Unity dow>I mean,

338
00:16:16.520 --> 00:16:17.440
<v Unity dow>the reality is that,

339
00:16:17.460 --> 00:16:17.600
<v Unity dow>okay,

340
00:16:17.700 --> 00:16:18.280
<v Unity dow>there's six,

341
00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:19.820
<v Unity dow>six of us in this team.

342
00:16:20.160 --> 00:16:22.340
<v Unity dow>Almost everybody else in the team

343
00:16:22.340 --> 00:16:24.920
<v Unity dow>knows why she was away for so long,

344
00:16:24.980 --> 00:16:26.920
<v Unity dow>and why she was obviously sick.

345
00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:29.420
<v Unity dow>Nobody mentions the word AIDS or HIV,

346
00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:30.860
<v Unity dow>at all.

347
00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:33.360
<v Unity dow>Nobody mentions the word,

348
00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:33.800
<v Unity dow>you know,

349
00:16:33.800 --> 00:16:35.420
<v Unity dow>she comes to my office sometimes

350
00:16:35.420 --> 00:16:37.560
<v Unity dow>to talk to me about how she's doing with her drugs,

351
00:16:37.560 --> 00:16:37.920
<v Unity dow>and how,

352
00:16:38.040 --> 00:16:38.280
<v Unity dow>you know,

353
00:16:38.280 --> 00:16:38.780
<v Unity dow>she thinks,

354
00:16:38.820 --> 00:16:39.100
<v Unity dow>um,

355
00:16:40.100 --> 00:16:40.460
<v Unity dow>she,

356
00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:42.680
<v Unity dow>some of the problems she may have,

357
00:16:42.780 --> 00:16:43.040
<v Unity dow>you know,

358
00:16:43.040 --> 00:16:43.800
<v Unity dow>she may be having,

359
00:16:43.860 --> 00:16:44.540
<v Unity dow>she wants me to,

360
00:16:44.560 --> 00:16:44.940
<v Unity dow>to help,

361
00:16:44.940 --> 00:16:46.440
<v Unity dow>wants me to call the doctor and find out,

362
00:16:46.460 --> 00:16:46.760
<v Unity dow>you know,

363
00:16:46.780 --> 00:16:47.300
<v Unity dow>if she can be,

364
00:16:47.380 --> 00:16:48.540
<v Unity dow>things to be explained.

365
00:16:48.740 --> 00:16:49.400
<v Unity dow>But otherwise,

366
00:16:49.540 --> 00:16:50.120
<v Unity dow>always a private,

367
00:16:50.220 --> 00:16:51.040
<v Unity dow>always a private meeting between,

368
00:16:51.180 --> 00:16:51.340
<v Unity dow>but,

369
00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:53.280
<v Unity dow>other members know,

370
00:16:54.120 --> 00:16:54.840
<v Unity dow>everybody knows,

371
00:16:55.080 --> 00:16:56.260
<v Unity dow>that she's HIV positive.

372
00:16:56.380 --> 00:16:58.240
<v Unity dow>Everybody knows that she must be on drugs now,

373
00:16:58.300 --> 00:16:59.180
<v Unity dow>because she's so much better,

374
00:16:59.260 --> 00:16:59.920
<v Unity dow>and she's coming to work,

375
00:17:00.040 --> 00:17:01.440
<v Unity dow>but nobody acknowledges it,

376
00:17:01.480 --> 00:17:02.520
<v Unity dow>nobody talks about it,

377
00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:03.700
<v Unity dow>at a personal level.

378
00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:05.640
<v Unity dow>There are banners everywhere about HIV,

379
00:17:05.940 --> 00:17:06.880
<v Unity dow>and how it's got contracted,

380
00:17:06.940 --> 00:17:07.960
<v Unity dow>but at a personal level,

381
00:17:08.080 --> 00:17:09.060
<v Unity dow>acknowledging it,

382
00:17:09.120 --> 00:17:09.260
<v Unity dow>you know,

383
00:17:09.300 --> 00:17:09.980
<v Unity dow>at a personal level,

384
00:17:10.120 --> 00:17:12.340
<v Unity dow>you find that there isn't that kind of acknowledgement.

385
00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:14.300
<v Unity dow>That's one thing.

386
00:17:14.380 --> 00:17:14.700
<v Unity dow>Very,

387
00:17:14.700 --> 00:17:15.080
<v Unity dow>very shortly,

388
00:17:15.280 --> 00:17:16.940
<v Unity dow>another case study.

389
00:17:17.700 --> 00:17:18.800
<v Unity dow>A cousin of mine,

390
00:17:18.900 --> 00:17:21.240
<v Unity dow>we just buried her about a month and a half ago.

391
00:17:21.940 --> 00:17:23.760
<v Unity dow>She was 28 years old.

392
00:17:24.140 --> 00:17:26.360
<v Unity dow>She had been training as a nurse,

393
00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:28.260
<v Unity dow>so she knew something about health,

394
00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:33.960
<v Unity dow>and when she finally was told she was too sick to continue with her training,

395
00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:34.520
<v Unity dow>she came home.

396
00:17:34.600 --> 00:17:34.980
<v Unity dow>Her mother,

397
00:17:35.060 --> 00:17:35.660
<v Unity dow>you know,

398
00:17:35.700 --> 00:17:36.240
<v Unity dow>is a professional,

399
00:17:36.300 --> 00:17:36.740
<v Unity dow>I won't say what,

400
00:17:36.860 --> 00:17:38.860
<v Unity dow>because you may be able to identify her,

401
00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:40.780
<v Unity dow>although she's impossible here in Australia.

402
00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:42.020
<v Unity dow>But anyways,

403
00:17:43.720 --> 00:17:44.600
<v Unity dow>she's educated,

404
00:17:44.700 --> 00:17:46.780
<v Unity dow>she's educated enough to know that her daughter is,

405
00:17:46.820 --> 00:17:47.580
<v Unity dow>you know,

406
00:17:47.620 --> 00:17:48.060
<v Unity dow>has got TB,

407
00:17:48.580 --> 00:17:49.580
<v Unity dow>has got pneumonia,

408
00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:50.700
<v Unity dow>you know,

409
00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:51.160
<v Unity dow>she,

410
00:17:51.300 --> 00:17:51.680
<v Unity dow>that's,

411
00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:53.880
<v Unity dow>those are some of the just AIDS-defining illnesses.

412
00:17:54.540 --> 00:17:56.440
<v Unity dow>But she refused to have her tested,

413
00:17:57.260 --> 00:17:58.860
<v Unity dow>and said her daughter was not,

414
00:17:58.940 --> 00:17:59.900
<v Unity dow>didn't have AIDS,

415
00:18:00.020 --> 00:18:00.780
<v Unity dow>she was bewitched.

416
00:18:02.220 --> 00:18:03.060
<v Unity dow>My sister,

417
00:18:03.120 --> 00:18:08.080
<v Unity dow>who co-founded one of the first HIV AIDS organizations in the country,

418
00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:10.060
<v Unity dow>went over there to talk to her and said,

419
00:18:10.100 --> 00:18:11.140
<v Unity dow>you must have her tested.

420
00:18:11.380 --> 00:18:13.360
<v Unity dow>She can be on antiretrovirals.

421
00:18:13.360 --> 00:18:14.500
<v Unity dow>She will become better.

422
00:18:14.700 --> 00:18:15.420
<v Unity dow>They said,

423
00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:16.560
<v Unity dow>no more than six people.

424
00:18:16.700 --> 00:18:17.060
<v Unity dow>You know,

425
00:18:17.080 --> 00:18:18.700
<v Unity dow>why it actually became very confrontational,

426
00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:19.380
<v Unity dow>where she was like,

427
00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:20.260
<v Unity dow>people are interfering with,

428
00:18:20.320 --> 00:18:21.960
<v Unity dow>in her life and her life,

429
00:18:22.060 --> 00:18:23.320
<v Unity dow>the life of her daughter,

430
00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:25.720
<v Unity dow>because her daughter did not have AIDS,

431
00:18:25.840 --> 00:18:27.280
<v Unity dow>was not HIV positive,

432
00:18:27.500 --> 00:18:31.120
<v Unity dow>and that she refused to have it until she died,

433
00:18:31.700 --> 00:18:32.220
<v Unity dow>you know,

434
00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:35.460
<v Unity dow>until she finally died and we buried her.

435
00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:37.620
<v Unity dow>But the thing is,

436
00:18:37.700 --> 00:18:40.780
<v Unity dow>all these times she was going to hospital.

437
00:18:41.080 --> 00:18:41.660
<v Unity dow>I mean,

438
00:18:41.660 --> 00:18:42.300
<v Unity dow>obviously when you,

439
00:18:42.760 --> 00:18:43.380
<v Unity dow>when she,

440
00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:44.680
<v Unity dow>there's a lot of people,

441
00:18:44.700 --> 00:18:45.440
<v Unity dow>the TV got too much,

442
00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:46.200
<v Unity dow>she would go to the hospital,

443
00:18:46.260 --> 00:18:47.660
<v Unity dow>she would get something for the TV when she,

444
00:18:47.760 --> 00:18:49.540
<v Unity dow>so they were treating those symptoms.

445
00:18:49.840 --> 00:18:53.940
<v Unity dow>But because unless you agree to be,

446
00:18:54.560 --> 00:18:57.580
<v Unity dow>to the pre-test counseling and then to be tested,

447
00:18:58.080 --> 00:19:00.180
<v Unity dow>the next stage does not happen at all.

448
00:19:00.520 --> 00:19:03.560
<v Unity dow>And HIV AIDS is one of the few conditions,

449
00:19:03.760 --> 00:19:04.640
<v Unity dow>I think,

450
00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:07.960
<v Unity dow>at home where caregivers don't seem to ever say,

451
00:19:08.220 --> 00:19:08.520
<v Unity dow>I mean,

452
00:19:08.540 --> 00:19:10.460
<v Unity dow>if you bring any sick person,

453
00:19:10.580 --> 00:19:11.560
<v Unity dow>it doesn't matter what it is.

454
00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:12.260
<v Unity dow>As you,

455
00:19:12.860 --> 00:19:14.520
<v Unity dow>it seems logical that you'd be,

456
00:19:14.520 --> 00:19:17.180
<v Unity dow>you'd be consulted if you had clearly the caregiver of this person.

457
00:19:17.460 --> 00:19:20.340
<v Unity dow>But HIV is the only condition where people,

458
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:23.240
<v Unity dow>you'll be asked to go outside while they talk to the patient

459
00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:26.780
<v Unity dow>and almost frightened her into silence with this pre-test counseling,

460
00:19:27.020 --> 00:19:27.540
<v Unity dow>in my opinion,

461
00:19:27.780 --> 00:19:30.260
<v Unity dow>with the result that they don't get the help they're supposed to have.

462
00:19:30.940 --> 00:19:31.960
<v Unity dow>And for me,

463
00:19:32.020 --> 00:19:34.340
<v Unity dow>it raises the question of confidentiality.

464
00:19:34.360 --> 00:19:34.640
<v Unity dow>Okay,

465
00:19:34.760 --> 00:19:35.540
<v Unity dow>I'm finishing.

466
00:19:37.040 --> 00:19:39.980
<v Unity dow>I'll deal with the rest of the issues in questions if they come up.

467
00:19:40.300 --> 00:19:43.480
<v Unity dow>They raised the issue of confidentiality and to what extent,

468
00:19:43.480 --> 00:19:44.660
<v Unity dow>when in,

469
00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:45.640
<v Unity dow>in our fear,

470
00:19:45.760 --> 00:19:46.420
<v Unity dow>you know,

471
00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:46.900
<v Unity dow>of AIDS,

472
00:19:47.040 --> 00:19:52.280
<v Unity dow>we have overreacted and put a higher premium on confidentiality as,

473
00:19:52.540 --> 00:19:55.280
<v Unity dow>as compared to other diseases that we do have.

474
00:19:55.480 --> 00:19:59.080
<v Unity dow>And to what extent that has been actually counterproductive and also to examine

475
00:19:59.080 --> 00:20:01.420
<v Unity dow>why we reacted that way.

476
00:20:01.540 --> 00:20:02.420
<v Unity dow>Thank you very much.

477
00:20:08.760 --> 00:20:10.060
<v Chair>Thanks very much,

478
00:20:10.780 --> 00:20:11.300
<v Chair>Unity,

479
00:20:11.420 --> 00:20:13.260
<v Chair>for giving us a very human face of

480
00:20:13.260 --> 00:20:13.560
<v Chair>plague.

481
00:20:13.900 --> 00:20:16.260
<v Chair>And our next speaker will,

482
00:20:16.380 --> 00:20:16.720
<v Chair>I think,

483
00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:18.340
<v Chair>give us a more historical perspective.

484
00:20:18.940 --> 00:20:21.720
<v Chair>And I'll hand over to Redmond O'Hanlon.

485
00:20:26.180 --> 00:20:27.220
<v Speaker 4>Now, after that,

486
00:20:27.260 --> 00:20:31.720
<v Speaker 4>it's a very local and perhaps slightly frivolous perspective.

487
00:20:31.900 --> 00:20:40.080
<v Speaker 4>I think we'll just stay in the Northern Congo and think about plague as it applies there.

488
00:20:40.120 --> 00:20:41.480
<v Speaker 4>But I'd like you all to know that

489
00:20:41.480 --> 00:20:41.620
<v Speaker 4>um,

490
00:20:43.260 --> 00:20:49.460
<v Speaker 4>our first speaker was talking about cohabiting with organisms and how we'll always have to.

491
00:20:50.260 --> 00:20:55.620
<v Speaker 4>And I'd like you all to know that in your gut every night,

492
00:20:55.720 --> 00:21:08.180
<v Speaker 4>the same number of bacteria and generations and individuals are bred as mammals from the moment that they evolved until now.

493
00:21:10.460 --> 00:21:12.100
<v Speaker 4>So we're very interesting, aren't we?

494
00:21:14.120 --> 00:21:23.100
<v Speaker 4>And the other general biological idea you ought to really bear in mind is that our very own bedbug,

495
00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:24.580
<v Speaker 4>the bedbug we all love so much,

496
00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:27.000
<v Speaker 4>it's descended directly.

497
00:21:27.300 --> 00:21:34.720
<v Speaker 4>It's almost indistinguishable from bedbug carried by a large species of bat from Central Africa.

498
00:21:35.460 --> 00:21:40.780
<v Speaker 4>And it's obvious that we should never have cohabited with bats in caves.

499
00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:41.720
<v Speaker 4>That was a big mistake.

500
00:21:44.900 --> 00:21:49.840
<v Speaker 4>And a small thing about viruses, retroviruses.

501
00:21:51.500 --> 00:21:57.040
<v Speaker 4>A man I know, a heroic figure really, did a big transect.

502
00:21:57.040 --> 00:22:04.480
<v Speaker 4>He walked all the way from the Eastern Congo to the coast at Gabon,

503
00:22:04.660 --> 00:22:08.080
<v Speaker 4>the longest transect ever made, as we call it.

504
00:22:08.980 --> 00:22:12.440
<v Speaker 4>And he found strange areas

505
00:22:12.440 --> 00:22:19.300
<v Speaker 4>where the rainforest was perfect for big populations of chimpanzees and gorillas that I've seen there,

506
00:22:19.340 --> 00:22:20.040
<v Speaker 4>lowland gorillas.

507
00:22:20.840 --> 00:22:22.660
<v Speaker 4>But he found odd gaps.

508
00:22:23.160 --> 00:22:26.780
<v Speaker 4>And these gaps, with a complete lack of population,

509
00:22:26.860 --> 00:22:29.500
<v Speaker 4>no signs of large apes anywhere,

510
00:22:31.360 --> 00:22:38.280
<v Speaker 4>corresponded to outbreaks in the recent past or sometimes,

511
00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:41.760
<v Speaker 4>as I'll tell you in a minute, in historical times,

512
00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:45.980
<v Speaker 4>of a retrovirus of one kind or another.

513
00:22:46.280 --> 00:22:48.840
<v Speaker 4>The most recent one, of course, is Ebola.

514
00:22:49.220 --> 00:22:53.240
<v Speaker 4>And that's wiped out populations of large apes

515
00:22:53.240 --> 00:22:59.240
<v Speaker 4>as well as quite large populations of human beings.

516
00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:04.040
<v Speaker 4>And one of the reasons, or thought to be,

517
00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:07.220
<v Speaker 4>or perhaps it's a convenient myth for environmentalists,

518
00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:09.620
<v Speaker 4>as to why these viruses suddenly appear

519
00:23:10.280 --> 00:23:12.420
<v Speaker 4>and wipe out whole populations,

520
00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:16.280
<v Speaker 4>is simply clearing of new areas of forest.

521
00:23:16.760 --> 00:23:19.520
<v Speaker 4>New vectors, I mean old vectors,

522
00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:23.920
<v Speaker 4>are disturbed by these new clearances, perhaps, and disturbances.

523
00:23:24.220 --> 00:23:26.480
<v Speaker 4>And wherever I went in northern Congo,

524
00:23:26.700 --> 00:23:31.140
<v Speaker 4>there'd be magnificent stories

525
00:23:31.140 --> 00:23:33.560
<v Speaker 4>that raise the hair in the back of your neck

526
00:23:34.080 --> 00:23:36.720
<v Speaker 4>about forbidden areas of forest.

527
00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:40.000
<v Speaker 4>And I can see now in front of me

528
00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:42.420
<v Speaker 4>the well-worn path up there.

529
00:23:42.440 --> 00:23:45.740
<v Speaker 4>You can't cross saplings and then the grass has grown over it.

530
00:23:45.780 --> 00:23:47.460
<v Speaker 4>Beyond that point you mustn't go.

531
00:23:48.800 --> 00:23:50.380
<v Speaker 4>Because, the explanation always was,

532
00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:54.040
<v Speaker 4>there was a village there once around the lake.

533
00:23:54.620 --> 00:24:01.580
<v Speaker 4>And everybody died because a curse was put on that particular area

534
00:24:01.580 --> 00:24:03.380
<v Speaker 4>and it's full of restless spirits.

535
00:24:03.780 --> 00:24:04.820
<v Speaker 4>Why are they restless?

536
00:24:05.080 --> 00:24:10.720
<v Speaker 4>They're restless because they have no children to make them offerings,

537
00:24:10.740 --> 00:24:12.420
<v Speaker 4>to set their spirits free.

538
00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:13.080
<v Speaker 4>it's at rest.

539
00:24:13.800 --> 00:24:14.300
<v Speaker 4>And

540
00:24:16.360 --> 00:24:18.100
<v Speaker 4>the Western rational

541
00:24:18.980 --> 00:24:20.180
<v Speaker 4>explanation for that

542
00:24:20.180 --> 00:24:22.200
<v Speaker 4>again is the

543
00:24:22.200 --> 00:24:24.480
<v Speaker 4>release of some virus into the population.

544
00:24:24.760 --> 00:24:26.220
<v Speaker 4>And because it was a virus

545
00:24:26.220 --> 00:24:28.260
<v Speaker 4>or a bacteria that hadn't had time to

546
00:24:28.260 --> 00:24:30.120
<v Speaker 4>evolve with its host, it wiped its host

547
00:24:30.120 --> 00:24:31.480
<v Speaker 4>out, which is a very bad

548
00:24:32.040 --> 00:24:34.320
<v Speaker 4>plan, as I'm sure you all know, for a bacteria.

549
00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:34.980
<v Speaker 4>You want to

550
00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:38.120
<v Speaker 4>live with your host, just

551
00:24:38.120 --> 00:24:40.260
<v Speaker 4>like bacterial pneumonia does

552
00:24:40.260 --> 00:24:42.280
<v Speaker 4>with us now. You only want to

553
00:24:42.280 --> 00:24:43.960
<v Speaker 4>invade the right lung

554
00:24:43.960 --> 00:24:45.740
<v Speaker 4>and collapse it and fill it with pus and

555
00:24:45.740 --> 00:24:47.660
<v Speaker 4>breed. You want

556
00:24:48.500 --> 00:24:50.020
<v Speaker 4>even an old man to

557
00:24:50.020 --> 00:24:51.820
<v Speaker 4>survive a little longer until

558
00:24:51.820 --> 00:24:54.020
<v Speaker 4>you've multiplied your population enough

559
00:24:54.020 --> 00:24:54.620
<v Speaker 4>to spread it.

560
00:24:56.060 --> 00:24:56.400
<v Speaker 4>And

561
00:25:00.020 --> 00:25:00.320
<v Speaker 4>the other

562
00:25:01.300 --> 00:25:03.220
<v Speaker 4>strange effect of

563
00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:06.080
<v Speaker 4>HIV-AIDS

564
00:25:06.080 --> 00:25:07.760
<v Speaker 4>in that area where I was,

565
00:25:07.860 --> 00:25:08.800
<v Speaker 4>it's the immense

566
00:25:10.360 --> 00:25:11.860
<v Speaker 4>strength it gives to

567
00:25:11.860 --> 00:25:12.260
<v Speaker 4>people

568
00:25:12.280 --> 00:25:12.940
<v Speaker 4>who are

569
00:25:12.940 --> 00:25:13.280
<v Speaker 4>sorcerers.

570
00:25:13.320 --> 00:25:14.460
<v Speaker 4>Now the sorcerer

571
00:25:14.460 --> 00:25:15.700
<v Speaker 4>in each village,

572
00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:18.640
<v Speaker 4>he's the one man who

573
00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:21.220
<v Speaker 4>really won't sleep with anybody

574
00:25:21.220 --> 00:25:22.220
<v Speaker 4>who's not his wife.

575
00:25:22.500 --> 00:25:24.520
<v Speaker 4>And his youngest wife normally is around

576
00:25:24.520 --> 00:25:26.480
<v Speaker 4>14, 15, 16.

577
00:25:27.660 --> 00:25:29.380
<v Speaker 4>And no other man

578
00:25:29.380 --> 00:25:31.180
<v Speaker 4>is going to sleep with a sorcerer's wife

579
00:25:31.180 --> 00:25:32.280
<v Speaker 4>because

580
00:25:32.280 --> 00:25:35.220
<v Speaker 4>as we all know,

581
00:25:35.300 --> 00:25:36.840
<v Speaker 4>you're dead on penetration.

582
00:25:36.940 --> 00:25:37.820
<v Speaker 4>And this is

583
00:25:37.820 --> 00:25:41.080
<v Speaker 4>a very good way of

584
00:25:41.080 --> 00:25:41.480
<v Speaker 4>preserving

585
00:25:41.480 --> 00:25:42.260
<v Speaker 4>children.

586
00:25:42.280 --> 00:25:44.420
<v Speaker 4>And I think

587
00:25:44.420 --> 00:25:44.740
<v Speaker 4>that's a very good way of

588
00:25:44.740 --> 00:25:44.780
<v Speaker 4>preserving children.

589
00:25:44.780 --> 00:25:44.860
<v Speaker 4>And I think

590
00:25:45.980 --> 00:25:48.120
<v Speaker 4>So the sorcerer probably is the only

591
00:25:48.120 --> 00:25:49.220
<v Speaker 4>really old man

592
00:25:49.220 --> 00:25:51.860
<v Speaker 4>you'll come across in many of these villages now.

593
00:25:52.020 --> 00:25:53.980
<v Speaker 4>And when some poor young

594
00:25:53.980 --> 00:25:56.300
<v Speaker 4>guy's wasting away outside his hut,

595
00:25:57.500 --> 00:25:58.120
<v Speaker 4>the sorcerer

596
00:25:58.120 --> 00:25:59.820
<v Speaker 4>claims credit for it.

597
00:26:00.300 --> 00:26:02.240
<v Speaker 4>He's cursed him by night.

598
00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:04.180
<v Speaker 4>There are deep

599
00:26:04.180 --> 00:26:06.080
<v Speaker 4>social effects as you'd expect

600
00:26:06.080 --> 00:26:08.020
<v Speaker 4>from plague.

601
00:26:11.220 --> 00:26:12.160
<v Speaker 4>On the other

602
00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:13.860
<v Speaker 4>hand, it's probably the most

603
00:26:15.280 --> 00:26:16.320
<v Speaker 4>fascinating subject

604
00:26:16.320 --> 00:26:17.760
<v Speaker 4>in all medicine.

605
00:26:18.280 --> 00:26:20.000
<v Speaker 4>Anyway, we'll talk about that later.

606
00:26:20.600 --> 00:26:21.260
<v Speaker 4>Thank you.

607
00:26:25.820 --> 00:26:28.100
<v Chair>Well that certainly continues the theme

608
00:26:28.100 --> 00:26:29.300
<v Chair>of fear and plague.

609
00:26:30.060 --> 00:26:31.860
<v Chair>And on that note, I'll hand over

610
00:26:31.860 --> 00:26:33.880
<v Chair>to Dennis Altman, who I'm sure

611
00:26:33.880 --> 00:26:35.020
<v Chair>will be provocative.

612
00:26:39.140 --> 00:26:40.120
<v Speaker 5>I'll start off

613
00:26:40.120 --> 00:26:41.820
<v Speaker 5>by saying that I really just like the

614
00:26:41.820 --> 00:26:42.900
<v Speaker 5>title of this panel.

615
00:26:43.140 --> 00:26:45.520
<v Speaker 5>And that I think that calling

616
00:26:45.520 --> 00:26:47.200
<v Speaker 5>a panel plague is actually,

617
00:26:47.480 --> 00:26:48.380
<v Speaker 5>presumably deliberately,

618
00:26:49.480 --> 00:26:51.560
<v Speaker 5>evoking all the fears

619
00:26:51.560 --> 00:26:53.700
<v Speaker 5>and prejudices that many

620
00:26:53.700 --> 00:26:55.360
<v Speaker 5>people, of course, have tried very hard

621
00:26:55.360 --> 00:26:57.280
<v Speaker 5>to move us away from.

622
00:26:58.740 --> 00:26:59.780
<v Speaker 5>Most of us

623
00:26:59.780 --> 00:27:01.400
<v Speaker 5>will be familiar with the enormous

624
00:27:01.400 --> 00:27:03.640
<v Speaker 5>reaction that in this part of the world

625
00:27:03.640 --> 00:27:05.360
<v Speaker 5>the SARS epidemic has caused

626
00:27:05.360 --> 00:27:07.000
<v Speaker 5>for much of this year.

627
00:27:07.220 --> 00:27:09.660
<v Speaker 5>The huge fear

628
00:27:09.660 --> 00:27:11.800
<v Speaker 5>that the outbreak of SARS would be a big problem.

629
00:27:11.800 --> 00:27:13.660
<v Speaker 5>That it would lead to the collapse

630
00:27:13.660 --> 00:27:15.680
<v Speaker 5>of economies,

631
00:27:16.380 --> 00:27:17.720
<v Speaker 5>to the

632
00:27:17.720 --> 00:27:18.940
<v Speaker 5>end of tourism,

633
00:27:20.020 --> 00:27:21.820
<v Speaker 5>the general fear

634
00:27:21.820 --> 00:27:23.280
<v Speaker 5>of widespread

635
00:27:23.280 --> 00:27:25.380
<v Speaker 5>and apparently

636
00:27:25.380 --> 00:27:26.780
<v Speaker 5>uncheckable spread

637
00:27:27.340 --> 00:27:29.240
<v Speaker 5>of a new and apparently

638
00:27:29.240 --> 00:27:30.320
<v Speaker 5>untreatable disease.

639
00:27:30.900 --> 00:27:32.660
<v Speaker 5>It's worth remembering that,

640
00:27:33.380 --> 00:27:35.340
<v Speaker 5>unless somebody on the panel says I'm totally wrong,

641
00:27:35.580 --> 00:27:37.600
<v Speaker 5>and I will bow to their expertise,

642
00:27:37.700 --> 00:27:38.600
<v Speaker 5>as far as I know,

643
00:27:38.740 --> 00:27:40.820
<v Speaker 5>the total known death rate

644
00:27:40.820 --> 00:27:41.540
<v Speaker 5>from SARS,

645
00:27:41.800 --> 00:27:42.740
<v Speaker 5>to date,

646
00:27:43.480 --> 00:27:45.920
<v Speaker 5>is far lower than the daily death rate

647
00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:47.040
<v Speaker 5>from AIDS.

648
00:27:47.760 --> 00:27:50.040
<v Speaker 5>And if one looks at that

649
00:27:50.040 --> 00:27:51.980
<v Speaker 5>and bears in mind the way

650
00:27:51.980 --> 00:27:52.800
<v Speaker 5>in which our media

651
00:27:52.800 --> 00:27:55.500
<v Speaker 5>and governments became hysterical

652
00:27:55.500 --> 00:27:57.220
<v Speaker 5>in response to SARS,

653
00:27:57.480 --> 00:27:59.000
<v Speaker 5>it starts, I think, underlining

654
00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:01.920
<v Speaker 5>the gravity of the HIV-AIDS

655
00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:03.680
<v Speaker 5>epidemic. Not just in Africa,

656
00:28:03.900 --> 00:28:05.740
<v Speaker 5>although most obviously at the moment in Africa,

657
00:28:05.960 --> 00:28:06.720
<v Speaker 5>but also

658
00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:09.300
<v Speaker 5>in many other parts of the world.

659
00:28:09.560 --> 00:28:10.760
<v Speaker 5>And I think that

660
00:28:10.760 --> 00:28:11.660
<v Speaker 5>one of the

661
00:28:11.800 --> 00:28:13.640
<v Speaker 5>points that Unity is really making,

662
00:28:13.840 --> 00:28:15.500
<v Speaker 5>that we have to constantly address,

663
00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:19.000
<v Speaker 5>is that the reactions to HIV-AIDS

664
00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:20.700
<v Speaker 5>are rather different to our reactions

665
00:28:20.700 --> 00:28:21.840
<v Speaker 5>to almost any other

666
00:28:21.840 --> 00:28:23.500
<v Speaker 5>potential epidemic.

667
00:28:23.840 --> 00:28:25.740
<v Speaker 5>That the fear, the denial,

668
00:28:25.880 --> 00:28:27.960
<v Speaker 5>the silences around AIDS

669
00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:30.240
<v Speaker 5>are different because of the way

670
00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:32.000
<v Speaker 5>in which HIV is transmitted.

671
00:28:32.500 --> 00:28:34.160
<v Speaker 5>One of the reasons there was

672
00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:35.720
<v Speaker 5>so much attention to SARS

673
00:28:35.720 --> 00:28:38.020
<v Speaker 5>was that people didn't feel any inhibition

674
00:28:38.020 --> 00:28:39.420
<v Speaker 5>about talking about it.

675
00:28:39.480 --> 00:28:41.780
<v Speaker 5>Because talking about the spread of SARS,

676
00:28:41.800 --> 00:28:44.820
<v Speaker 5>didn't mean having to talk about nasty subjects

677
00:28:44.820 --> 00:28:45.920
<v Speaker 5>which most governments,

678
00:28:46.120 --> 00:28:47.680
<v Speaker 5>and particularly most religions,

679
00:28:48.040 --> 00:28:49.860
<v Speaker 5>would rather were not discussed.

680
00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:52.740
<v Speaker 5>And I say this because I actually want to

681
00:28:53.300 --> 00:28:55.180
<v Speaker 5>move on in a minute to talk about

682
00:28:55.180 --> 00:28:58.220
<v Speaker 5>what I think is the great paradox of AIDS.

683
00:28:58.500 --> 00:29:00.680
<v Speaker 5>But let me note first of all that there are two

684
00:29:01.340 --> 00:29:02.160
<v Speaker 5>very simplistic

685
00:29:03.580 --> 00:29:07.280
<v Speaker 5>ways of seeing the central issue

686
00:29:07.280 --> 00:29:09.300
<v Speaker 5>in stopping the epidemic.

687
00:29:09.300 --> 00:29:14.060
<v Speaker 5>And in a sense I'm creating deliberately a caricature.

688
00:29:14.280 --> 00:29:15.960
<v Speaker 5>One is a right-wing position,

689
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:17.660
<v Speaker 5>one is a left-wing position.

690
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:20.480
<v Speaker 5>The right-wing position says it's all the fault

691
00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:22.820
<v Speaker 5>of people not exercising self-discipline.

692
00:29:22.980 --> 00:29:24.800
<v Speaker 5>If people didn't do nasty things

693
00:29:24.800 --> 00:29:26.920
<v Speaker 5>like go to prostitutes,

694
00:29:27.020 --> 00:29:29.240
<v Speaker 5>shoot up drugs, have homosexual sex,

695
00:29:29.520 --> 00:29:30.580
<v Speaker 5>there would be no problem.

696
00:29:30.800 --> 00:29:32.960
<v Speaker 5>This of course is the attitude epitomized

697
00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:35.500
<v Speaker 5>by Nancy Reagan and her famous slogan of

698
00:29:35.500 --> 00:29:36.120
<v Speaker 5>just say no.

699
00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:39.200
<v Speaker 5>The equivalent, and I think equally silly,

700
00:29:39.300 --> 00:29:42.180
<v Speaker 5>left-wing position is that it's all the fault

701
00:29:42.180 --> 00:29:44.480
<v Speaker 5>of the nasty Western pharmaceutical industries.

702
00:29:44.700 --> 00:29:48.100
<v Speaker 5>And if they weren't so intent on making profits,

703
00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:50.280
<v Speaker 5>then there wouldn't be a problem.

704
00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:52.400
<v Speaker 5>Everybody in the world who was infected

705
00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:55.200
<v Speaker 5>would have access to antiretrovirals.

706
00:29:55.400 --> 00:29:58.360
<v Speaker 5>And I deliberately say I think that's equally silly

707
00:29:58.360 --> 00:30:03.120
<v Speaker 5>because it actually removes the much more difficult

708
00:30:03.120 --> 00:30:06.060
<v Speaker 5>and complex questions which neither of those

709
00:30:06.060 --> 00:30:07.840
<v Speaker 5>positions address.

710
00:30:07.840 --> 00:30:12.580
<v Speaker 5>Namely, the paradox that we in fact know

711
00:30:12.580 --> 00:30:15.220
<v Speaker 5>how to stop the spread of HIV,

712
00:30:15.980 --> 00:30:18.860
<v Speaker 5>and it's not very difficult at a technical level.

713
00:30:19.800 --> 00:30:24.020
<v Speaker 5>We know very well how the virus spreads,

714
00:30:24.500 --> 00:30:27.740
<v Speaker 5>and we have fairly simple means,

715
00:30:27.920 --> 00:30:31.380
<v Speaker 5>namely use of condoms, the use of clean needles,

716
00:30:31.520 --> 00:30:33.460
<v Speaker 5>to prevent its spread.

717
00:30:34.060 --> 00:30:37.300
<v Speaker 5>In most parts of the world, the obstacles,

718
00:30:37.300 --> 00:30:42.640
<v Speaker 5>are not lack of knowledge about the means of prevention,

719
00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:47.060
<v Speaker 5>but lack of willingness to talk openly and frankly

720
00:30:47.060 --> 00:30:50.160
<v Speaker 5>about the behaviors that are involved,

721
00:30:51.300 --> 00:30:55.820
<v Speaker 5>and a failure to therefore address the political,

722
00:30:56.060 --> 00:30:59.780
<v Speaker 5>social, and cultural taboos that would make it possible

723
00:31:00.300 --> 00:31:05.140
<v Speaker 5>to make the means of prevention much more available

724
00:31:05.140 --> 00:31:07.280
<v Speaker 5>and more accessible.

725
00:31:07.280 --> 00:31:17.360
<v Speaker 5>Now, I've already suggested that unlike the spread

726
00:31:17.360 --> 00:31:20.600
<v Speaker 5>of something like SARS, the great problem in talking

727
00:31:20.600 --> 00:31:25.320
<v Speaker 5>about HIV is that we inevitably have to talk about certain forms

728
00:31:25.320 --> 00:31:29.080
<v Speaker 5>of human behavior that most authoritarian structures

729
00:31:29.080 --> 00:31:30.660
<v Speaker 5>don't want to deal with.

730
00:31:32.280 --> 00:31:36.560
<v Speaker 5>It isn't good enough to just say people should stop fucking around,

731
00:31:36.840 --> 00:31:37.260
<v Speaker 5>stop being a part of the social movement,

732
00:31:37.260 --> 00:31:40.560
<v Speaker 5>we shouldn't have commercial sex, people shouldn't shoot up.

733
00:31:41.420 --> 00:31:44.140
<v Speaker 5>The reality is that for most people in the world

734
00:31:44.140 --> 00:31:48.840
<v Speaker 5>who engage in the behaviors that put them at risk of HIV,

735
00:31:49.320 --> 00:31:53.200
<v Speaker 5>the sorts of choices that are implied in the just say no philosophy

736
00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:54.980
<v Speaker 5>are not actually available.

737
00:31:56.400 --> 00:32:01.160
<v Speaker 5>If you're a kid living on the streets of Rio or Johannesburg or Mumbai,

738
00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:05.640
<v Speaker 5>and you need to survive, and you need food and shelter now,

739
00:32:05.640 --> 00:32:10.260
<v Speaker 5>and the only commodity you have to sell is your body,

740
00:32:10.420 --> 00:32:11.820
<v Speaker 5>then that's what you're going to do.

741
00:32:12.760 --> 00:32:15.980
<v Speaker 5>And if to make that existence bearable,

742
00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:22.480
<v Speaker 5>it is easier to dull some of the experience by shooting up,

743
00:32:23.180 --> 00:32:25.900
<v Speaker 5>partly because that is actually one of the few things

744
00:32:25.900 --> 00:32:29.360
<v Speaker 5>you might be able to do to establish a short-term sense

745
00:32:29.360 --> 00:32:32.600
<v Speaker 5>of community with your peers, then of course you're going to do it.

746
00:32:34.060 --> 00:32:35.620
<v Speaker 5>And yet, we live in a world where we have to do a lot more work,

747
00:32:35.640 --> 00:32:37.580
<v Speaker 5>and there's a world in which most governments

748
00:32:37.580 --> 00:32:43.240
<v Speaker 5>and almost all organized religions still want not to talk about those issues,

749
00:32:43.520 --> 00:32:46.500
<v Speaker 5>or if they do talk about them, want to talk about them

750
00:32:46.500 --> 00:32:49.100
<v Speaker 5>with very heavy moralistic overtones.

751
00:32:49.840 --> 00:32:52.500
<v Speaker 5>And when we, I think in 100 years, look back

752
00:32:52.500 --> 00:32:56.160
<v Speaker 5>on the current history of the epidemic,

753
00:32:56.540 --> 00:32:59.780
<v Speaker 5>what I think will be most striking and most tragic

754
00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:03.860
<v Speaker 5>is the number of people who have invoked the name of God,

755
00:33:04.700 --> 00:33:05.620
<v Speaker 5>invoked the name of the world,

756
00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:11.960
<v Speaker 5>of some concept of good to actually justify preventing things being done that would have

757
00:33:11.960 --> 00:33:18.900
<v Speaker 5>saved human lives. And you can see this really right across cultures, right across religions,

758
00:33:19.220 --> 00:33:26.480
<v Speaker 5>right across countries. The other thing that I think will be striking is that yes, the nasty

759
00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:32.320
<v Speaker 5>Western pharmaceutical companies are of course intent on making profits and protecting their

760
00:33:32.320 --> 00:33:40.640
<v Speaker 5>monopoly of production of the necessary drugs. And there are huge and complex arguments, which

761
00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:47.020
<v Speaker 5>I haven't got time to go into, indeed the skill to go into, around the various ways in which world

762
00:33:47.020 --> 00:33:53.960
<v Speaker 5>trade agreements involve and restrict patents, the manufacture of generic drugs, and most

763
00:33:53.960 --> 00:34:01.400
<v Speaker 5>particularly the import and export of generic drugs. We have to also bear in mind that most

764
00:34:01.400 --> 00:34:01.980
<v Speaker 5>countries,

765
00:34:02.320 --> 00:34:10.840
<v Speaker 5>which have significant HIV epidemics, also can make certain choices. In the case of South Africa,

766
00:34:10.940 --> 00:34:16.800
<v Speaker 5>which is probably the most striking example and a remarkably different example to Unity's country

767
00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:23.840
<v Speaker 5>of Botswana, the government has deliberately made it extremely difficult to provide anti-retroviral

768
00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:32.220
<v Speaker 5>drugs, partly because of a whole set of rather bizarre pseudoscientific

769
00:34:32.220 --> 00:34:37.960
<v Speaker 5>beliefs which are being propagated within the higher reaches of the South African government.

770
00:34:39.060 --> 00:34:44.460
<v Speaker 5>If we come closer to home, the country that has actually at the moment probably the largest

771
00:34:44.460 --> 00:34:51.080
<v Speaker 5>single number of people living with HIV in the world is India. India actually has the capacity

772
00:34:51.080 --> 00:34:58.920
<v Speaker 5>and is already manufacturing generic anti-retroviral drugs. The problem in India,

773
00:34:58.980 --> 00:35:01.320
<v Speaker 5>around both treatment and prevention,

774
00:35:02.220 --> 00:35:09.340
<v Speaker 5>is not nasty Western governments or nasty Western pharmaceutical companies. It is in fact the

775
00:35:09.340 --> 00:35:15.160
<v Speaker 5>unwillingness of the Indian government to make sufficient resources available, and the choices

776
00:35:15.160 --> 00:35:21.620
<v Speaker 5>which are made by the Indian government, that it is more in their interest to develop nuclear weapons,

777
00:35:22.340 --> 00:35:29.160
<v Speaker 5>to maintain a massive defence force, than it is to protect the lives of their own citizens.

778
00:35:30.120 --> 00:35:32.200
<v Speaker 5>And that actually takes me to where I want to end. I want to end by saying that the government has

779
00:35:32.220 --> 00:35:32.720
<v Speaker 5>a very strong sense of urgency and a very strong sense of urgency, and I think that is what I want to end.

780
00:35:33.120 --> 00:35:38.520
<v Speaker 5>There has been a lot of talk at the Festival of Ideas about terrorism, about the current state

781
00:35:38.520 --> 00:35:45.900
<v Speaker 5>of uncertainty, about the threats to security in the contemporary world. One of the greatest single

782
00:35:45.900 --> 00:35:54.840
<v Speaker 5>threats to security that we all face is the constant spread of an epidemic like HIV AIDS.

783
00:35:55.300 --> 00:36:02.020
<v Speaker 5>In the long run, the growth of that epidemic in places like Papua New Guinea and Indonesia,

784
00:36:02.220 --> 00:36:07.460
<v Speaker 5>is a far greater threat to us in Australia, even if we think in the most self-interested and selfish

785
00:36:07.460 --> 00:36:13.140
<v Speaker 5>and narrow nationalist terms, than is the possibility of another Bali bombing.

786
00:36:15.460 --> 00:36:20.680
<v Speaker 5>There are very few things that I would like our government to learn from George W. Bush.

787
00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:26.220
<v Speaker 5>You may in fact think there is nothing left that our government could learn from George W. Bush.

788
00:36:26.760 --> 00:36:31.580
<v Speaker 5>The one thing I really wish they would learn, I really wish Bush would take Howard aside and say,

789
00:36:31.620 --> 00:36:32.100
<v Speaker 5>listen mate,

790
00:36:33.380 --> 00:36:50.520
<v Speaker 5>I understand that HIV matters. The United States, for all the things we may say, and I know there are people at this conference who make a living out of blasting the United States for every crime they can conceive of, plus some yet to be invented, the United States has actually got it.

791
00:36:51.500 --> 00:37:00.600
<v Speaker 5>This administration understands, with all their limits and all the moralistic trappings they put around it, that the spread of AIDS is a threat to global security.

792
00:37:02.360 --> 00:37:13.940
<v Speaker 5>I really wish in their next chummy, you know, Texas barbecue meeting, Bush would take Howard aside and persuade our Prime Minister that he too has to get it,

793
00:37:14.700 --> 00:37:21.460
<v Speaker 5>and that we in Australia have both a moral imperative, but also an imperative out of national self-interest,

794
00:37:21.640 --> 00:37:31.220
<v Speaker 5>to take seriously the possibility of the African scenario being replicated in many parts of the Asia-Pacific region.

795
00:37:36.740 --> 00:37:37.220
<v Speaker 5>Thank you.

796
00:37:39.800 --> 00:37:41.160
<v Chair>Thanks very much Dennis.

797
00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:46.020
<v Chair>Dennis, now is the time for people in the audience to make comments, ask questions.

798
00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:52.720
<v Chair>It will be much easier for our sound recordist if you could make your way to the microphone in the middle or at the top in the balcony.

799
00:37:53.600 --> 00:38:00.580
<v Chair>While people are getting their thoughts, yeah, and if we could dim the lights, because if that is at all possible.

800
00:38:01.040 --> 00:38:02.080
<v Chair>A bit like Ashford.

801
00:38:02.220 --> 00:38:08.620
<v Chair>I'd just like to ask the panel one question or to comment on this.

802
00:38:08.900 --> 00:38:13.160
<v Chair>As a public health practitioner where I know that in some African countries

803
00:38:13.160 --> 00:38:18.780
<v Chair>20 years are being wiped off life expectancy in the last few years,

804
00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:23.280
<v Chair>which has been the first massive reversal in public health since the Second World War,

805
00:38:23.720 --> 00:38:29.380
<v Chair>how is it that Western countries can almost totally ignore this in terms of their response?

806
00:38:29.380 --> 00:38:32.200
<v Chair>I take what Dennis said, there's some response from the US,

807
00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:36.600
<v Chair>but compared to the extent of devastation that's happening in Africa

808
00:38:36.600 --> 00:38:41.300
<v Chair>and most of my experiences in South Africa, I find it astounding.

809
00:38:41.680 --> 00:38:45.520
<v Chair>I don't know, Unity, would you like to start from an African perspective

810
00:38:45.520 --> 00:38:47.540
<v Chair>or would you like one of your colleagues?

811
00:38:52.080 --> 00:38:58.480
<v Speaker 4>Well, no, I would just say that just a point that was actually raised,

812
00:38:58.640 --> 00:38:59.260
<v Speaker 4>I mean, I would.

813
00:38:59.380 --> 00:39:08.020
<v Speaker 4>Particularly by an Australian, that perhaps AIDS spread so very fast in Africa

814
00:39:08.020 --> 00:39:17.100
<v Speaker 4>along the equatorial belt simply because, partly because the Western countries really,

815
00:39:18.300 --> 00:39:23.620
<v Speaker 4>United Nations did make a vast effort with a polio vaccine in the 50s.

816
00:39:24.380 --> 00:39:28.200
<v Speaker 4>And a friend of mine, a brilliant man, W.D. Hamilton at Oxford,

817
00:39:28.200 --> 00:39:33.120
<v Speaker 4>was convinced by this paper and we wanted to publish it in the London Times.

818
00:39:33.540 --> 00:39:40.500
<v Speaker 4>And the editor said to me, no, it's such a horrible story, I really don't want to touch it.

819
00:39:40.580 --> 00:39:45.380
<v Speaker 4>And when it was published in the Independent in London, nobody picked the story up,

820
00:39:45.480 --> 00:39:52.540
<v Speaker 4>that it might really, the map just fits and the incubation time would have been just right.

821
00:39:52.660 --> 00:39:56.820
<v Speaker 4>And the salt two vaccine that was produced in the middle of Africa,

822
00:39:56.900 --> 00:39:57.160
<v Speaker 4>are,

823
00:39:58.200 --> 00:40:01.480
<v Speaker 4>are vaccine in the West, as you all know, I'm sure, was, was cultured,

824
00:40:02.300 --> 00:40:08.180
<v Speaker 4>livers of cows, but this, this was cultured from livers of green monkeys,

825
00:40:08.240 --> 00:40:11.640
<v Speaker 4>which were easy Savannah monkeys and chimpanzees.

826
00:40:11.820 --> 00:40:17.120
<v Speaker 4>And there is some of this vaccine left in Sweden,

827
00:40:18.060 --> 00:40:20.780
<v Speaker 4>but Hamilton wasn't allowed to see it.

828
00:40:20.820 --> 00:40:25.960
<v Speaker 4>And he went out to Congo to collect DNA samples,

829
00:40:26.180 --> 00:40:28.180
<v Speaker 4>just of particular populations,

830
00:40:28.180 --> 00:40:29.700
<v Speaker 4>of chimpanzees.

831
00:40:30.420 --> 00:40:34.420
<v Speaker 4>And rumor has it, he was poisoned.

832
00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:42.280
<v Speaker 4>A dramatic thing to say, but his spleen was ruptured and no trace of malaria,

833
00:40:42.360 --> 00:40:44.600
<v Speaker 4>no trypanosomes was found in his system.

834
00:40:46.140 --> 00:40:52.400
<v Speaker 4>So it could very well be a horribly complicated story.

835
00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:57.180
<v Speaker 4>However, that's just a dark little comment on me.

836
00:40:58.840 --> 00:40:59.400
<v Speaker 4>So.

837
00:41:00.020 --> 00:41:01.800
<v Speaker 5>Can I step, oh, go on, yeah.

838
00:41:05.880 --> 00:41:11.780
<v Unity dow>I mean, kind of very similar to what you're saying, but, I mean,

839
00:41:11.780 --> 00:41:14.940
<v Unity dow>I mean, often when people try to explain, you know,

840
00:41:14.940 --> 00:41:18.720
<v Unity dow>why there's such a high incidence of HIV, AIDS in Africa,

841
00:41:19.060 --> 00:41:19.980
<v Unity dow>the suggestion,

842
00:41:20.080 --> 00:41:23.300
<v Unity dow>of course, is that Africans are particularly immoral.

843
00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:28.100
<v Unity dow>They engage all kinds of behavior that predispose them to, to HIV, AIDS.

844
00:41:28.120 --> 00:41:28.160
<v Unity dow>So, yeah, I think, yeah, yeah.

845
00:41:28.160 --> 00:41:31.840
<v Unity dow>and I look at the population of Botswana, which is 1.7 million,

846
00:41:32.440 --> 00:41:37.100
<v Unity dow>and we are told that about 30% of that population is HIV positive.

847
00:41:37.700 --> 00:41:42.600
<v Unity dow>And I want to, you know, it comes to mind that how many prostitutes

848
00:41:42.600 --> 00:41:45.560
<v Unity dow>or sex workers are actually in the U.S.?

849
00:41:46.540 --> 00:41:49.320
<v Unity dow>And there will be people who are clearly engaged in behavior

850
00:41:49.320 --> 00:41:51.440
<v Unity dow>that continuously expose them to that virus.

851
00:41:51.600 --> 00:41:54.620
<v Unity dow>And what is the percentage of the population that actually are HIV positive?

852
00:41:55.220 --> 00:41:59.960
<v Unity dow>Then you begin to see, is there another reason, you know,

853
00:41:59.980 --> 00:42:01.000
<v Unity dow>other than just behavior?

854
00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:03.140
<v Unity dow>You know, is there something genetic?

855
00:42:03.360 --> 00:42:06.720
<v Unity dow>Is there something that we are not looking at that may well predispose,

856
00:42:06.740 --> 00:42:11.940
<v Unity dow>you know, a black person, you know, different to their location?

857
00:42:12.080 --> 00:42:12.520
<v Unity dow>I don't know.

858
00:42:12.940 --> 00:42:17.340
<v Unity dow>And then when you look at, I mean, you can look, but AIDS is,

859
00:42:17.400 --> 00:42:21.080
<v Unity dow>it's been very interesting even over the past years that when you say

860
00:42:21.080 --> 00:42:23.060
<v Unity dow>where AIDS comes from, nobody wants to talk about that.

861
00:42:23.660 --> 00:42:24.520
<v Unity dow>It's almost like.

862
00:42:24.620 --> 00:42:29.360
<v Unity dow>In fact, you are, people don't, you want to be shut down.

863
00:42:29.520 --> 00:42:31.180
<v Unity dow>You know, nobody wants to listen to that.

864
00:42:31.260 --> 00:42:35.120
<v Unity dow>And often I think we can find solutions if we can find the cause.

865
00:42:35.400 --> 00:42:35.960
<v Unity dow>I think it's relevant.

866
00:42:36.820 --> 00:42:38.220
<v Unity dow>Of course, there are some studies that have already,

867
00:42:38.300 --> 00:42:41.440
<v Unity dow>I think they've pinned it down to a particular cause.

868
00:42:41.600 --> 00:42:42.480
<v Unity dow>I mean, I don't know.

869
00:42:42.640 --> 00:42:45.800
<v Unity dow>But it seems that it's a discussion that is not encouraged at all

870
00:42:46.380 --> 00:42:49.160
<v Unity dow>as to why is there a difference.

871
00:42:49.660 --> 00:42:54.340
<v Unity dow>I mean, there is no doubt that many factors,

872
00:42:54.620 --> 00:43:01.060
<v Unity dow>in my community that may well suggest why there is a higher incidence of HIV,

873
00:43:01.240 --> 00:43:03.700
<v Unity dow>you know, than in other countries.

874
00:43:03.820 --> 00:43:09.060
<v Unity dow>But on the other hand, if you look at, I don't know, if you look at abortion,

875
00:43:09.240 --> 00:43:11.460
<v Unity dow>for example, you know, in the U.S. and say,

876
00:43:11.540 --> 00:43:15.240
<v Unity dow>how many abortions are performed per year in the U.S.?

877
00:43:15.240 --> 00:43:18.600
<v Unity dow>Okay? An African child generally will have the baby because there is not

878
00:43:18.600 --> 00:43:20.240
<v Unity dow>that facility to actually terminate the pregnancy.

879
00:43:20.560 --> 00:43:23.420
<v Unity dow>And an American teenager will have an abortion.

880
00:43:23.660 --> 00:43:24.400
<v Unity dow>So it won't be just.

881
00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:28.380
<v Unity dow>It's so obvious that she is engaged in behavior that actually predisposes one to,

882
00:43:28.420 --> 00:43:31.200
<v Unity dow>you know, to sex and therefore, I mean, to HIV.

883
00:43:32.020 --> 00:43:33.520
<v Unity dow>If we were to look at those studies,

884
00:43:33.680 --> 00:43:37.300
<v Unity dow>would you see similar incidence of HIV in that population?

885
00:43:37.620 --> 00:43:40.080
<v Unity dow>Because those are people who clearly have behaved in such a way that

886
00:43:40.080 --> 00:43:42.140
<v Unity dow>they expose them to HIV.

887
00:43:42.220 --> 00:43:42.740
<v Unity dow>I don't know.

888
00:43:43.040 --> 00:43:48.920
<v Unity dow>But, you know, often we look at simplistic, you know, I think, answers to why.

889
00:43:49.160 --> 00:43:51.600
<v Unity dow>I mean, I still don't know exactly why.

890
00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:53.920
<v Audience>One answer, one immediate answer.

891
00:43:54.400 --> 00:43:58.160
<v Speaker 4>To that, the why is in a poor country, completely under a source,

892
00:43:58.240 --> 00:44:05.720
<v Speaker 4>no national health service, any country that's impoverished in that way,

893
00:44:05.840 --> 00:44:08.580
<v Speaker 4>there's no antibiotics for gonorrhea and syphilis.

894
00:44:08.620 --> 00:44:13.740
<v Speaker 4>Those sexual diseases are absolutely universal all over the northern Congo where I was.

895
00:44:13.940 --> 00:44:19.020
<v Speaker 4>And the way to cure yourself if you're a powerful man is to sleep with a young virgin.

896
00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:24.360
<v Speaker 4>And as you know, for HIV to be transmitted, you really ought to,

897
00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:30.060
<v Speaker 4>you know, have a lesion, which is one reason why heterosexual AIDS

898
00:44:30.060 --> 00:44:31.820
<v Speaker 4>didn't spread quite so fast in the West.

899
00:44:31.940 --> 00:44:38.480
<v Speaker 4>But the real obvious, obvious reason is that when we get gonorrhea and syphilis,

900
00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:40.880
<v Speaker 4>you get treated instantly with antibiotics.

901
00:44:41.940 --> 00:44:47.020
<v Speaker 5>Can I first of all say that I don't think there's any evidence for the polio story,

902
00:44:47.240 --> 00:44:51.360
<v Speaker 5>and I think it's extremely irresponsible to sit here and spread that

903
00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:52.700
<v Speaker 5>until there is that evidence.

904
00:44:53.040 --> 00:44:54.380
<v Speaker 5>We've had enough conversations.

905
00:44:54.400 --> 00:44:55.820
<v Speaker 4>Isn't that Edward Hopper's big book?

906
00:44:55.820 --> 00:44:57.800
<v Speaker 5>I think it's not sufficient evidence.

907
00:44:57.940 --> 00:45:00.540
<v Speaker 5>It has been discredited by pretty well all.

908
00:45:00.980 --> 00:45:05.820
<v Speaker 5>I mean, I'm not a virologist or a microbiologist,

909
00:45:06.500 --> 00:45:08.900
<v Speaker 5>so I can only go on the basis of probability.

910
00:45:09.400 --> 00:45:13.560
<v Speaker 5>And unless one assumes that the great majority of medical experts in the world

911
00:45:13.560 --> 00:45:15.580
<v Speaker 5>are in a conspiracy to silence it,

912
00:45:15.740 --> 00:45:18.420
<v Speaker 5>then I have to go with the great majority who say it's not true.

913
00:45:18.500 --> 00:45:21.540
<v Speaker 5>But I really think we've got two quite separate questions now to come up.

914
00:45:21.600 --> 00:45:23.940
<v Speaker 5>Fran's original question has sort of been turned

915
00:45:23.940 --> 00:45:25.040
<v Speaker 5>into a different question,

916
00:45:25.120 --> 00:45:30.560
<v Speaker 5>which is why is there more HIV currently in southern Africa

917
00:45:30.560 --> 00:45:31.480
<v Speaker 5>than other parts of the world?

918
00:45:31.540 --> 00:45:33.780
<v Speaker 5>But in fact, if you look at specific populations

919
00:45:33.780 --> 00:45:35.620
<v Speaker 5>in other parts of the world,

920
00:45:35.640 --> 00:45:39.260
<v Speaker 5>for example, the population of people in prison in Russia

921
00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:44.460
<v Speaker 5>or the population of needle users

922
00:45:44.460 --> 00:45:49.120
<v Speaker 5>in certain parts of northeastern India and Burma,

923
00:45:49.200 --> 00:45:51.600
<v Speaker 5>you'll find the same high levels of HIV.

924
00:45:52.820 --> 00:45:53.900
<v Speaker 5>I think it's...

925
00:45:53.940 --> 00:45:56.640
<v Speaker 5>It's a historical fact that, of course, early on...

926
00:45:56.640 --> 00:45:59.660
<v Speaker 5>And remember, early on, there were very high rates of HIV

927
00:45:59.660 --> 00:46:02.860
<v Speaker 5>among gay men in western cities.

928
00:46:03.220 --> 00:46:05.980
<v Speaker 5>So I think the suggestion there's genetic differences

929
00:46:05.980 --> 00:46:07.960
<v Speaker 5>is just very unlikely to be the case.

930
00:46:08.420 --> 00:46:10.080
<v Speaker 5>I think it's true, of course,

931
00:46:10.080 --> 00:46:12.580
<v Speaker 5>that poverty and lack of medical attention

932
00:46:12.580 --> 00:46:16.860
<v Speaker 5>will have all the effects that Redmond's referred to.

933
00:46:17.700 --> 00:46:19.120
<v Speaker 5>But I don't actually think...

934
00:46:19.120 --> 00:46:20.220
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, yeah.

935
00:46:20.400 --> 00:46:23.720
<v Speaker 2>Because of malnourishment is a very profoundly important reason

936
00:46:23.720 --> 00:46:26.020
<v Speaker 2>why so many more people will be infected,

937
00:46:26.240 --> 00:46:28.340
<v Speaker 2>and that's been shown,

938
00:46:28.420 --> 00:46:31.680
<v Speaker 2>and that's the host-the-organism-environment interaction.

939
00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:33.040
<v Speaker 2>So that's obviously important.

940
00:46:33.240 --> 00:46:36.500
<v Speaker 2>The interesting thing is also the historical aspect.

941
00:46:37.740 --> 00:46:40.060
<v Speaker 2>Initially, it was infection of gay men.

942
00:46:40.740 --> 00:46:42.720
<v Speaker 2>It did get into the blood supply as well,

943
00:46:42.740 --> 00:46:43.720
<v Speaker 2>but that was quickly controlled.

944
00:46:43.900 --> 00:46:46.120
<v Speaker 2>Australia had an incredible response to this

945
00:46:46.120 --> 00:46:50.160
<v Speaker 2>by stopping and containing the epidemic to gay men.

946
00:46:50.240 --> 00:46:52.540
<v Speaker 2>We didn't get into intravenous drug users in any way,

947
00:46:52.540 --> 00:46:56.140
<v Speaker 2>and it didn't get into heterosexual population really in any way.

948
00:46:56.240 --> 00:46:58.180
<v Speaker 2>We contained it very early in the epidemic

949
00:46:58.180 --> 00:47:02.200
<v Speaker 2>by outrageous interventions that were evidence-based,

950
00:47:02.280 --> 00:47:04.520
<v Speaker 2>that had very good social and sexual research.

951
00:47:04.600 --> 00:47:07.120
<v Speaker 2>All the things that didn't happen in Unity's story

952
00:47:07.120 --> 00:47:08.860
<v Speaker 2>happened really well in Australia.

953
00:47:09.400 --> 00:47:10.220
<v Speaker 2>Really well.

954
00:47:10.320 --> 00:47:13.500
<v Speaker 2>We had explicit advertisements being shown on television

955
00:47:13.500 --> 00:47:15.660
<v Speaker 2>about condoms and drug use.

956
00:47:15.700 --> 00:47:17.000
<v Speaker 2>They could never be done in America,

957
00:47:17.100 --> 00:47:18.740
<v Speaker 2>and it couldn't be done in Africa.

958
00:47:18.880 --> 00:47:20.180
<v Speaker 2>You wouldn't be able to perhaps do that.

959
00:47:20.420 --> 00:47:22.360
<v Speaker 2>And so we were able to contain the epidemic

960
00:47:22.360 --> 00:47:24.580
<v Speaker 2>before it spread to the heterosexual population.

961
00:47:25.180 --> 00:47:27.940
<v Speaker 2>You had the problem that, in fact, it was a late thing.

962
00:47:28.020 --> 00:47:29.020
<v Speaker 2>It had actually spread.

963
00:47:29.120 --> 00:47:31.900
<v Speaker 2>The lowered immunity of people because of poor nourishment

964
00:47:31.900 --> 00:47:34.900
<v Speaker 2>and, of course, the promiscuity,

965
00:47:34.940 --> 00:47:37.480
<v Speaker 2>but that's everywhere, as Dennis has said.

966
00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:39.440
<v Speaker 2>So I think there is a history here.

967
00:47:39.720 --> 00:47:40.960
<v Unity dow>I'm not a virologist either,

968
00:47:41.100 --> 00:47:44.860
<v Unity dow>but actually I did listen to some representative study

969
00:47:44.860 --> 00:47:49.260
<v Unity dow>out of Harvard suggesting that there might be differences in makeup.

970
00:47:50.600 --> 00:47:51.860
<v Unity dow>You have a Unity unit.

971
00:47:51.860 --> 00:47:52.040
<v Unity dow>No, no.

972
00:47:52.360 --> 00:47:54.480
<v Speaker 5>Early on in the epidemic, I lived in San Francisco,

973
00:47:55.000 --> 00:47:58.700
<v Speaker 5>and gay Asian men, gay American Asian men said,

974
00:47:58.800 --> 00:48:01.180
<v Speaker 5>we're not going to get it because, you know, there are no cases.

975
00:48:01.740 --> 00:48:04.560
<v Speaker 5>Now you look back and you think how tragic it was.

976
00:48:04.740 --> 00:48:07.760
<v Speaker 5>No, but this sort of stuff, there's no scientific basis for it.

977
00:48:07.760 --> 00:48:10.800
<v Speaker 2>It's quite likely that there are going to be genetic differences

978
00:48:10.800 --> 00:48:12.180
<v Speaker 2>in susceptibility to infection.

979
00:48:12.320 --> 00:48:12.920
<v Speaker 2>We know that.

980
00:48:12.980 --> 00:48:14.040
<v Speaker 2>There are some people who are,

981
00:48:14.060 --> 00:48:17.120
<v Speaker 2>just because of their genetic susceptibility or risk,

982
00:48:17.200 --> 00:48:18.220
<v Speaker 2>at different rates of risk.

983
00:48:18.320 --> 00:48:21.520
<v Speaker 2>And that will affect if there mightn't be a strong genetic risk.

984
00:48:23.100 --> 00:48:25.280
<v Speaker 5>But it may in fact be that,

985
00:48:25.940 --> 00:48:28.080
<v Speaker 2>and in fact what will happen very quickly in Africa

986
00:48:28.080 --> 00:48:29.460
<v Speaker 2>because of the high rate of infection,

987
00:48:29.720 --> 00:48:32.040
<v Speaker 2>is that the most susceptible will die.

988
00:48:32.580 --> 00:48:35.660
<v Speaker 2>And of course now maybe they've all died.

989
00:48:35.740 --> 00:48:38.580
<v Speaker 2>In fact, the most immune may be the ones who are,

990
00:48:38.700 --> 00:48:39.860
<v Speaker 2>or most resistant are the ones who are.

991
00:48:39.860 --> 00:48:41.820
<v Unity dow>By the way, the study was suggesting race.

992
00:48:42.020 --> 00:48:43.600
<v Unity dow>It could be what you eat.

993
00:48:43.720 --> 00:48:46.240
<v Unity dow>It could be, you know, I'm suggesting that,

994
00:48:46.340 --> 00:48:47.380
<v Unity dow>I mean, from a medical point of view,

995
00:48:47.420 --> 00:48:50.260
<v Unity dow>it is quite possible that I could be in a room with people with TB

996
00:48:50.260 --> 00:48:51.960
<v Unity dow>for 10 days and I don't get it.

997
00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:52.340
<v Unity dow>But you get it.

998
00:48:52.340 --> 00:48:52.500
<v Unity dow>You get it.

999
00:48:52.860 --> 00:48:53.800
<v Unity dow>Isn't that, is that...

1000
00:48:53.800 --> 00:48:56.080
<v Speaker 5>Sure, but that would be an individual genetic

1001
00:48:56.080 --> 00:48:57.740
<v Speaker 5>rather than a population.

1002
00:48:58.580 --> 00:49:00.760
<v Chair>Let's move on to a question from the audience.

1003
00:49:01.540 --> 00:49:04.500
<v Chair>I'm afraid my question took rather longer than I expected.

1004
00:49:04.700 --> 00:49:05.320
<v Chair>Thank you.

1005
00:49:05.460 --> 00:49:07.720
<v Audience>I'm sorry to interrupt your argument.

1006
00:49:10.780 --> 00:49:13.560
<v Audience>I'm just really just want to make a comment

1007
00:49:13.560 --> 00:49:15.700
<v Audience>and see if you've got any reactions.

1008
00:49:16.760 --> 00:49:18.480
<v Audience>I live in the Adelaide Hills

1009
00:49:18.480 --> 00:49:21.740
<v Audience>and there are 20 or 30 species

1010
00:49:21.740 --> 00:49:24.260
<v Audience>of birds in that region

1011
00:49:24.260 --> 00:49:28.980
<v Audience>that face extinction over the next 20 years.

1012
00:49:29.400 --> 00:49:31.420
<v Audience>And from their perspective,

1013
00:49:31.580 --> 00:49:33.420
<v Audience>from those bird species perspective,

1014
00:49:34.260 --> 00:49:36.020
<v Audience>humans are the plague.

1015
00:49:37.120 --> 00:49:40.740
<v Audience>And it does seem to me that when we're looking at plagues,

1016
00:49:41.440 --> 00:49:45.900
<v Audience>we always look from a very human-centred perspective.

1017
00:49:46.860 --> 00:49:50.980
<v Audience>We also look very much from the preventative angle

1018
00:49:50.980 --> 00:49:51.720
<v Audience>with the birds.

1019
00:49:51.720 --> 00:49:52.640
<v Audience>We think of, you know,

1020
00:49:53.220 --> 00:49:57.220
<v Audience>what drugs can we use to stop this disease or whatever.

1021
00:49:57.500 --> 00:50:00.200
<v Audience>You know, we should all wear condoms or whatever.

1022
00:50:00.580 --> 00:50:04.780
<v Audience>But we never seem to look at the causality

1023
00:50:04.780 --> 00:50:08.540
<v Audience>of these plagues very closely.

1024
00:50:09.500 --> 00:50:12.780
<v Audience>Yet, you know, history seems to be saying to us

1025
00:50:12.780 --> 00:50:17.300
<v Audience>that perhaps plagues have something to do

1026
00:50:17.300 --> 00:50:21.340
<v Audience>with overpopulation, you know, dense urban concentration.

1027
00:50:21.720 --> 00:50:22.740
<v Audience>And I think that's a very important point.

1028
00:50:22.740 --> 00:50:25.400
<v Audience>I'd just be interested to hear reactions to those thoughts.

1029
00:50:25.640 --> 00:50:28.040
<v Speaker 2>I thought that was my main argument, actually.

1030
00:50:28.360 --> 00:50:30.800
<v Speaker 2>That, in fact, if you don't look at the causes

1031
00:50:30.800 --> 00:50:34.900
<v Speaker 2>of the interaction between organism, host and environment,

1032
00:50:35.100 --> 00:50:36.860
<v Speaker 2>then you're never going to really be able

1033
00:50:36.860 --> 00:50:37.840
<v Speaker 2>to prevent these things.

1034
00:50:37.980 --> 00:50:39.900
<v Speaker 2>And you're going to end up with drugs which are ineffective

1035
00:50:39.900 --> 00:50:41.640
<v Speaker 2>because they become resistant and so on.

1036
00:50:41.700 --> 00:50:45.300
<v Speaker 2>So the future hope, and it's been so incredibly successful,

1037
00:50:46.020 --> 00:50:48.480
<v Speaker 2>is to interrupt that transmission

1038
00:50:48.480 --> 00:50:51.520
<v Speaker 2>or to make the host so immune

1039
00:50:51.520 --> 00:50:53.640
<v Speaker 2>that they won't be able to get the disease by vaccination.

1040
00:50:53.940 --> 00:50:55.420
<v Speaker 2>It's probably been the most powerful

1041
00:50:55.860 --> 00:50:57.700
<v Speaker 2>preventive public health measure we've ever had.

1042
00:50:58.080 --> 00:51:01.140
<v Speaker 2>So I think that's the way forward, of course.

1043
00:51:01.260 --> 00:51:03.880
<v Speaker 2>It would be great if we had a vaccine against AIDS

1044
00:51:03.880 --> 00:51:06.140
<v Speaker 2>because then we wouldn't get it.

1045
00:51:06.380 --> 00:51:09.480
<v Speaker 2>So it's a bit overcrowding.

1046
00:51:09.480 --> 00:51:10.260
<v Speaker 2>You're absolutely right.

1047
00:51:10.720 --> 00:51:12.080
<v Speaker 2>If we could actually...

1048
00:51:13.340 --> 00:51:15.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, overcrowding, overpopulation, absolutely right.

1049
00:51:15.680 --> 00:51:17.940
<v Speaker 2>I mean, that is one of the biggest threats to human health.

1050
00:51:18.080 --> 00:51:20.260
<v Speaker 2>There are too many of us on the planet, I quite agree.

1051
00:51:20.680 --> 00:51:21.400
<v Speaker 2>Other species?

1052
00:51:21.400 --> 00:51:21.880
<v Speaker 2>Other species as well.

1053
00:51:22.400 --> 00:51:25.220
<v Chair>Let's move up to a question up in the balcony.

1054
00:51:25.340 --> 00:51:26.620
<v Chair>I can just about see.

1055
00:51:26.880 --> 00:51:27.200
<v Audience>Thanks.

1056
00:51:27.840 --> 00:51:29.500
<v Audience>Just a question about our...

1057
00:51:29.500 --> 00:51:31.260
<v Audience>or a comment about...

1058
00:51:31.260 --> 00:51:32.660
<v Audience>or a question about...

1059
00:51:32.660 --> 00:51:35.220
<v Audience>wanting comment about our own Indigenous population.

1060
00:51:35.960 --> 00:51:37.640
<v Audience>Unity's very sobering question

1061
00:51:37.640 --> 00:51:40.760
<v Audience>about how many funerals people have attended.

1062
00:51:41.040 --> 00:51:45.880
<v Audience>I know an Indigenous man that attended 29 funerals

1063
00:51:45.880 --> 00:51:49.600
<v Audience>in about a three-month period.

1064
00:51:49.840 --> 00:51:51.140
<v Audience>So just wondering about...

1065
00:51:51.400 --> 00:51:56.300
<v Audience>the plague of cultural decimation and poverty

1066
00:51:56.300 --> 00:52:01.040
<v Audience>and our own Indigenous population in regards to HIV AIDS.

1067
00:52:03.620 --> 00:52:05.840
<v Speaker 5>Well, I think there are two separate issues.

1068
00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:08.080
<v Speaker 5>I mean, I think there's the larger issue,

1069
00:52:08.180 --> 00:52:10.860
<v Speaker 5>which is clearly there are huge inequalities

1070
00:52:10.860 --> 00:52:13.580
<v Speaker 5>and appalling problems

1071
00:52:13.580 --> 00:52:16.920
<v Speaker 5>around the health status of Indigenous Australians.

1072
00:52:17.180 --> 00:52:18.400
<v Speaker 5>But having said that,

1073
00:52:18.580 --> 00:52:20.100
<v Speaker 5>and I'm going to look at Fiona for collaboration,

1074
00:52:21.400 --> 00:52:21.540
<v Speaker 5>I think the biggest difference is

1075
00:52:21.540 --> 00:52:24.600
<v Speaker 5>that although from the beginning people kept on fearing

1076
00:52:25.120 --> 00:52:27.460
<v Speaker 5>there'd be a massive outbreak of HIV AIDS

1077
00:52:27.460 --> 00:52:28.880
<v Speaker 5>among Indigenous Australians,

1078
00:52:29.080 --> 00:52:30.120
<v Speaker 5>that hasn't actually happened.

1079
00:52:31.340 --> 00:52:33.600
<v Speaker 5>The figures suggest that it's not happening.

1080
00:52:33.720 --> 00:52:34.240
<v Speaker 5>Would that be...?

1081
00:52:34.240 --> 00:52:34.560
<v Speaker 2>That's right.

1082
00:52:34.680 --> 00:52:37.780
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there are increasing numbers of HIV AIDS

1083
00:52:37.780 --> 00:52:38.980
<v Speaker 2>amongst Aboriginal people.

1084
00:52:39.140 --> 00:52:40.540
<v Speaker 2>But the funerals you referred to,

1085
00:52:40.560 --> 00:52:42.660
<v Speaker 2>I would predict that very few of them were due to HIV.

1086
00:52:42.880 --> 00:52:43.660
<v Speaker 2>In fact, probably none.

1087
00:52:43.760 --> 00:52:43.960
<v Speaker 2>None?

1088
00:52:44.600 --> 00:52:45.240
<v Speaker 2>That's right.

1089
00:52:45.300 --> 00:52:46.240
<v Speaker 2>They're due to, in fact,

1090
00:52:46.240 --> 00:52:48.640
<v Speaker 2>a whole lot of other causes associated with...

1091
00:52:48.640 --> 00:52:50.020
<v Speaker 2>mostly with inequality,

1092
00:52:50.900 --> 00:52:51.380
<v Speaker 2>and also with the fact that, in fact,

1093
00:52:51.380 --> 00:52:51.880
<v Speaker 2>the number of people who die from HIV AIDS

1094
00:52:51.880 --> 00:52:54.720
<v Speaker 2>and poverty and living conditions,

1095
00:52:54.840 --> 00:52:58.900
<v Speaker 2>the unacceptably high rate of preventable mortality

1096
00:52:58.900 --> 00:53:01.280
<v Speaker 2>in Indigenous populations is really well known.

1097
00:53:01.460 --> 00:53:02.740
<v Speaker 2>And I think that's something that...

1098
00:53:02.740 --> 00:53:04.460
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's something that I'm pushing very hard this year

1099
00:53:04.460 --> 00:53:05.200
<v Speaker 2>in Australian of the Year,

1100
00:53:05.280 --> 00:53:06.920
<v Speaker 2>that this is unacceptable in Australia

1101
00:53:06.920 --> 00:53:08.180
<v Speaker 2>to have this kind of disparity,

1102
00:53:08.480 --> 00:53:10.180
<v Speaker 2>and that we have the wherewithal,

1103
00:53:10.220 --> 00:53:12.960
<v Speaker 2>as has happened in New Zealand, Canada and North America,

1104
00:53:13.140 --> 00:53:16.300
<v Speaker 2>where their death rates and their illness rates

1105
00:53:16.300 --> 00:53:19.160
<v Speaker 2>for their Indigenous population of colonised countries

1106
00:53:19.160 --> 00:53:20.780
<v Speaker 2>has been so much lower than ours,

1107
00:53:20.780 --> 00:53:21.740
<v Speaker 2>and been much more effective.

1108
00:53:21.980 --> 00:53:24.000
<v Speaker 2>We're 15 to 20 years behind them.

1109
00:53:24.040 --> 00:53:24.960
<v Speaker 2>We can do it.

1110
00:53:24.980 --> 00:53:25.700
<v Speaker 2>We must do it.

1111
00:53:25.740 --> 00:53:27.820
<v Speaker 2>It's our total shame not to do it.

1112
00:53:28.700 --> 00:53:29.200
<v Speaker 2>APPLAUSE

1113
00:53:33.840 --> 00:53:36.420
<v Audience>My question is to Redmond and Fiona,

1114
00:53:36.460 --> 00:53:37.780
<v Audience>and congratulations, Fiona,

1115
00:53:37.860 --> 00:53:39.280
<v Audience>on being Australian of the Year.

1116
00:53:41.140 --> 00:53:46.360
<v Audience>Can you outline for us the killer plague

1117
00:53:46.360 --> 00:53:50.300
<v Audience>that might really affect humanity,

1118
00:53:50.780 --> 00:53:53.640
<v Audience>in the next 20 or 30 years,

1119
00:53:53.720 --> 00:53:57.900
<v Audience>something that SARS might have been supposed to be?

1120
00:53:59.120 --> 00:54:04.320
<v Audience>Is there something out there that could get us

1121
00:54:04.320 --> 00:54:05.340
<v Audience>that we don't know about yet?

1122
00:54:05.420 --> 00:54:07.540
<v Audience>And how are we going to counteract it?

1123
00:54:08.320 --> 00:54:10.120
<v Speaker 2>Stop watching the Hollywood movies.

1124
00:54:14.980 --> 00:54:17.440
<v Speaker 4>I like W.D. Hamilton's,

1125
00:54:17.440 --> 00:54:20.440
<v Speaker 4>one of his most fear-inducing theories.

1126
00:54:20.780 --> 00:54:22.800
<v Speaker 4>He wanted to, he thought,

1127
00:54:22.920 --> 00:54:24.840
<v Speaker 4>well, what's the point of clouds?

1128
00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:26.020
<v Speaker 4>Why do clouds form?

1129
00:54:26.120 --> 00:54:32.860
<v Speaker 4>He thought, well, just as trees use the wind

1130
00:54:32.860 --> 00:54:34.240
<v Speaker 4>as their dispersal mechanism,

1131
00:54:34.440 --> 00:54:36.900
<v Speaker 4>he thought, well, water droplets only form

1132
00:54:36.900 --> 00:54:37.980
<v Speaker 4>when there's something to form around.

1133
00:54:38.220 --> 00:54:41.240
<v Speaker 4>So bacteria have evolved this wonderful way

1134
00:54:41.240 --> 00:54:43.700
<v Speaker 4>of transmitting themselves around the world.

1135
00:54:43.940 --> 00:54:45.960
<v Speaker 4>And they do it in weather systems, in clouds.

1136
00:54:46.040 --> 00:54:46.840
<v Speaker 4>Every time it rains,

1137
00:54:46.980 --> 00:54:49.900
<v Speaker 4>all these strange bacteria are falling on your head.

1138
00:54:52.020 --> 00:54:53.280
<v Speaker 4>So it could happen tomorrow.

1139
00:54:54.500 --> 00:54:55.120
<v Speaker 4>Don't worry.

1140
00:54:55.680 --> 00:54:56.440
<v Speaker 4>You're doomed.

1141
00:54:58.060 --> 00:54:59.360
<v Speaker 2>I'll just very quickly say it.

1142
00:54:59.420 --> 00:55:00.900
<v Speaker 2>I just think that the interaction,

1143
00:55:01.080 --> 00:55:03.320
<v Speaker 2>it's a symbiotic relationship that we have with the organisms

1144
00:55:03.320 --> 00:55:07.180
<v Speaker 2>and that we've actually survived very well

1145
00:55:08.020 --> 00:55:09.900
<v Speaker 2>because of all of the ways that we've tried

1146
00:55:09.900 --> 00:55:11.680
<v Speaker 2>to interrupt that transmission and so on.

1147
00:55:11.920 --> 00:55:12.840
<v Speaker 5>Don't forget we're unsuccessful

1148
00:55:12.840 --> 00:55:15.780
<v Speaker 4>because most of us have died in the past.

1149
00:55:16.840 --> 00:55:18.140
<v Speaker 2>We'll always have them.

1150
00:55:18.380 --> 00:55:20.200
<v Speaker 2>We'll never get rid of...

1151
00:55:20.940 --> 00:55:23.200
<v Speaker 2>bacteria and viruses and prions and so on.

1152
00:55:23.220 --> 00:55:23.740
<v Speaker 2>They're going to be around.

1153
00:55:25.220 --> 00:55:25.660
<v Audience>Okay.

1154
00:55:25.760 --> 00:55:27.940
<v Audience>I'm pretty brave standing up on this one

1155
00:55:27.940 --> 00:55:29.560
<v Audience>because I really don't know terribly much

1156
00:55:29.560 --> 00:55:30.720
<v Audience>about what I'm talking about,

1157
00:55:30.860 --> 00:55:32.400
<v Audience>but I do want to check with the experts.

1158
00:55:33.840 --> 00:55:37.620
<v Audience>I'm mindful of the argument that we don't have solar cars

1159
00:55:37.620 --> 00:55:40.180
<v Audience>because we've got some very large petrol corporations

1160
00:55:40.180 --> 00:55:42.280
<v Audience>who make a lot of money selling us petrol.

1161
00:55:43.840 --> 00:55:46.700
<v Audience>And we've mentioned the high cost of,

1162
00:55:46.780 --> 00:55:49.940
<v Audience>what is it, anti-retrovirus medications.

1163
00:55:50.780 --> 00:55:53.400
<v Audience>And the big nasty pharmaceutical companies

1164
00:55:53.400 --> 00:55:56.040
<v Audience>who stand to make a killing out of selling lots of them.

1165
00:55:57.520 --> 00:56:00.280
<v Audience>And so with that as backdrop,

1166
00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:03.600
<v Audience>I think it's a couple of years ago now,

1167
00:56:03.740 --> 00:56:06.080
<v Audience>maybe somewhere between one and two years anyway,

1168
00:56:06.160 --> 00:56:07.340
<v Audience>and it sort of dropped out of mind

1169
00:56:07.340 --> 00:56:09.420
<v Audience>because it's of not direct relevance to me.

1170
00:56:10.420 --> 00:56:14.080
<v Audience>But there was a gentleman from Melbourne University

1171
00:56:14.080 --> 00:56:16.840
<v Audience>on Catalyst on ABC

1172
00:56:16.840 --> 00:56:18.940
<v Audience>and I think he proposed

1173
00:56:19.640 --> 00:56:20.760
<v Audience>that we...

1174
00:56:20.780 --> 00:56:23.880
<v Audience>He had a very simple cure for AIDS

1175
00:56:23.880 --> 00:56:28.100
<v Audience>and that it consisted of a few drops of lemon juice

1176
00:56:28.100 --> 00:56:29.700
<v Audience>in a glass of water

1177
00:56:29.700 --> 00:56:31.560
<v Audience>and used as a douche,

1178
00:56:31.660 --> 00:56:33.900
<v Audience>presumably either anal or vaginal,

1179
00:56:34.860 --> 00:56:38.440
<v Audience>and that this would be low cost,

1180
00:56:38.540 --> 00:56:40.260
<v Audience>it could save everybody,

1181
00:56:40.340 --> 00:56:42.640
<v Audience>and why didn't we get the word out?

1182
00:56:43.040 --> 00:56:45.080
<v Audience>Now, is there anything in that story?

1183
00:56:45.160 --> 00:56:46.600
<v Audience>Have I misremembered?

1184
00:56:46.600 --> 00:56:48.760
<v Audience>Or what's the background to that?

1185
00:56:48.880 --> 00:56:50.660
<v Chair>I heard that story on Late Night Live.

1186
00:56:51.440 --> 00:56:52.300
<v Speaker 2>You're spot on.

1187
00:56:52.360 --> 00:56:53.400
<v Speaker 2>It's Professor Roger Short.

1188
00:56:53.820 --> 00:56:58.880
<v Speaker 2>He found it out at London's National Portrait Gallery,

1189
00:56:58.980 --> 00:57:00.580
<v Speaker 2>standing in front of a portrait

1190
00:57:00.580 --> 00:57:02.540
<v Speaker 2>which was being unveiled of Marie Stopes,

1191
00:57:02.600 --> 00:57:05.380
<v Speaker 2>the wonderful contraceptive lady

1192
00:57:05.380 --> 00:57:08.300
<v Speaker 2>of the first part of the 20th century.

1193
00:57:08.620 --> 00:57:10.540
<v Speaker 2>And all these old women came up to him

1194
00:57:10.540 --> 00:57:11.840
<v Speaker 2>giggling afterwards and said,

1195
00:57:11.860 --> 00:57:13.560
<v Speaker 2>you know that if you put a lemon up there,

1196
00:57:14.780 --> 00:57:16.100
<v Speaker 2>it's a contraceptive.

1197
00:57:16.260 --> 00:57:18.320
<v Speaker 2>And so he got the idea that he might look at lemons

1198
00:57:18.320 --> 00:57:19.820
<v Speaker 2>and how they influence HIV.

1199
00:57:20.220 --> 00:57:20.760
<v Speaker 2>It's still a mystery.

1200
00:57:20.780 --> 00:57:23.120
<v Speaker 2>It's still in laboratory testing, as I know,

1201
00:57:23.220 --> 00:57:25.340
<v Speaker 2>but it certainly kills HIV in a test tube.

1202
00:57:25.520 --> 00:57:27.540
<v Speaker 2>Whether he's actually gone on to clinical trials,

1203
00:57:27.660 --> 00:57:28.180
<v Speaker 2>I don't know.

1204
00:57:28.440 --> 00:57:30.820
<v Speaker 2>But this is the same guy who's written up,

1205
00:57:30.820 --> 00:57:31.920
<v Speaker 2>along with all of other people,

1206
00:57:32.140 --> 00:57:34.240
<v Speaker 2>the protective effect of circumcision,

1207
00:57:34.300 --> 00:57:37.340
<v Speaker 2>where you've got quite different effects of HIV infection

1208
00:57:37.340 --> 00:57:40.180
<v Speaker 2>in tribes in Africa, or groups of people in Africa,

1209
00:57:40.320 --> 00:57:42.880
<v Speaker 2>one group of which circumcise and the other don't.

1210
00:57:43.020 --> 00:57:46.900
<v Speaker 2>And so he's actually contributed a lot to this debate

1211
00:57:46.900 --> 00:57:49.900
<v Speaker 2>about these kinds of practices and how they might prevent AIDS.

1212
00:57:49.900 --> 00:57:53.340
<v Speaker 2>So as far as I know, it's untested yet,

1213
00:57:53.360 --> 00:57:54.620
<v Speaker 2>but it's promising, actually.

1214
00:57:54.620 --> 00:57:57.520
<v Audience>So the big question is, why isn't it being trumpeted abroad?

1215
00:57:57.660 --> 00:58:01.180
<v Audience>Because even if it proves not to be absolutely useful,

1216
00:58:01.460 --> 00:58:04.180
<v Audience>at least it would be 80% useful.

1217
00:58:04.520 --> 00:58:05.180
<v Audience>We don't know that.

1218
00:58:05.300 --> 00:58:06.720
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you can't go and trumpet anything

1219
00:58:06.720 --> 00:58:08.220
<v Speaker 2>unless you've got some evidence about it.

1220
00:58:08.220 --> 00:58:09.800
<v Speaker 5>We've had a whole history of people

1221
00:58:10.820 --> 00:58:12.840
<v Speaker 5>over the last 20 years saying,

1222
00:58:12.940 --> 00:58:15.200
<v Speaker 5>I have a quick solution.

1223
00:58:15.760 --> 00:58:18.540
<v Speaker 5>And we have hundreds of thousands of people who've died

1224
00:58:18.540 --> 00:58:19.880
<v Speaker 5>because they've fallen for people who have died.

1225
00:58:19.900 --> 00:58:19.960
<v Speaker 5>And we've had hundreds of thousands of people

1226
00:58:19.960 --> 00:58:21.320
<v Speaker 5>saying, I have a quick solution.

1227
00:58:21.600 --> 00:58:23.860
<v Speaker 5>And there was that appalling case in South Africa

1228
00:58:23.860 --> 00:58:25.620
<v Speaker 5>where the health minister said, what was it,

1229
00:58:25.620 --> 00:58:28.220
<v Speaker 5>that viridine or something that turned out to be

1230
00:58:28.220 --> 00:58:31.340
<v Speaker 5>basically a chemical solvent was supposed to be a solution.

1231
00:58:31.940 --> 00:58:33.720
<v Speaker 5>I mean, for God's sake, one has to do this.

1232
00:58:33.760 --> 00:58:36.560
<v Speaker 5>As Fiona said, there have to be the right sorts of trials.

1233
00:58:36.800 --> 00:58:39.580
<v Speaker 5>And to go around saying it without those trials

1234
00:58:39.580 --> 00:58:41.800
<v Speaker 5>is to be extraordinarily irresponsible

1235
00:58:41.800 --> 00:58:45.380
<v Speaker 5>because it encourages people not to use the protective devices

1236
00:58:45.380 --> 00:58:47.060
<v Speaker 5>that we know are likely to work.

1237
00:58:47.160 --> 00:58:49.680
<v Chair>The issue might be, why doesn't the lemon juice

1238
00:58:49.900 --> 00:58:52.180
<v Chair>get big research money from pharmaceutical companies?

1239
00:58:52.180 --> 00:58:53.320
<v Chair>Oh, no, they've got funding to do the studies.

1240
00:58:53.660 --> 00:58:54.900
<v Speaker 2>That might be the question.

1241
00:58:54.900 --> 00:58:56.080
<v Speaker 2>Oh, well, the pharmaceutical companies

1242
00:58:56.080 --> 00:58:57.100
<v Speaker 2>aren't going to fund lemon juice.

1243
00:58:57.360 --> 00:58:59.440
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's not absolutely no...

1244
00:58:59.440 --> 00:59:00.220
<v Speaker 2>Well, thank you anyway.

1245
00:59:00.480 --> 00:59:01.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, thank you.

1246
00:59:01.440 --> 00:59:02.880
<v Chair>All right, I think we've got time.

1247
00:59:02.940 --> 00:59:05.300
<v Chair>I haven't been given the wind-up yet, so another question.

1248
00:59:06.740 --> 00:59:08.700
<v Audience>I hope this is a fairly simple question.

1249
00:59:10.220 --> 00:59:12.900
<v Audience>Recent UN population studies, et cetera,

1250
00:59:13.340 --> 00:59:15.260
<v Audience>tend to be saying that we can expect

1251
00:59:15.260 --> 00:59:19.640
<v Audience>a massive growth of population in Africa

1252
00:59:19.640 --> 00:59:19.880
<v Audience>in the next few years.

1253
00:59:19.900 --> 00:59:20.260
<v Audience>In Asia.

1254
00:59:20.780 --> 00:59:22.780
<v Audience>And I'm just wondering, I mean, these are reports

1255
00:59:22.780 --> 00:59:24.200
<v Audience>over the last couple of years.

1256
00:59:26.340 --> 00:59:31.360
<v Audience>Why aren't we expecting a lot of AIDS-related deaths

1257
00:59:31.360 --> 00:59:35.500
<v Audience>to bring down those projections over the next 30 or 50 years?

1258
00:59:36.260 --> 00:59:36.940
<v Speaker 2>They are.

1259
00:59:37.640 --> 00:59:41.240
<v Speaker 2>They are dramatically decreasing population projections in Africa.

1260
00:59:42.420 --> 00:59:43.660
<v Audience>Thank you. That's easy.

1261
00:59:43.900 --> 00:59:46.040
<v Speaker 2>They are. There's no doubt.

1262
00:59:46.200 --> 00:59:48.900
<v Speaker 2>When you've got some of the life expectancy figures now,

1263
00:59:49.040 --> 00:59:49.760
<v Speaker 2>Dennis is...

1264
00:59:49.760 --> 00:59:54.640
<v Speaker 2>As low as 50 years and less in some of the...

1265
00:59:54.640 --> 00:59:55.380
<v Speaker 2>I think 37 years.

1266
00:59:55.380 --> 00:59:56.660
<v Speaker 2>37. I mean, it's unbelievable

1267
00:59:56.660 --> 00:59:58.800
<v Speaker 2>how much it's going to affect population.

1268
00:59:59.200 --> 01:00:02.120
<v Chair>And particularly of the population in the productive years

1269
01:00:02.120 --> 01:00:03.940
<v Chair>is why it has such a big impact.

1270
01:00:04.520 --> 01:00:06.680
<v Chair>Are we actually got to the state where...

1271
01:00:06.680 --> 01:00:09.120
<v Chair>Yes, come to the microphone, though, so we pick up.

1272
01:00:09.220 --> 01:00:11.540
<v Chair>We might have time for one more question after that.

1273
01:00:11.580 --> 01:00:14.060
<v Audience>I'm sorry, I've forgotten your name, the bloke from La Trobe.

1274
01:00:14.100 --> 01:00:14.320
<v Audience>Dennis.

1275
01:00:15.100 --> 01:00:15.540
<v Chair>Dennis.

1276
01:00:16.100 --> 01:00:16.540
<v Audience>Dennis.

1277
01:00:16.540 --> 01:00:18.640
<v Audience>I might have to ask the bloke from La Trobe.

1278
01:00:18.640 --> 01:00:19.540
<v Audience>You said something about...

1279
01:00:19.540 --> 01:00:22.580
<v Audience>About America being concerned about AIDS being a threat

1280
01:00:22.580 --> 01:00:23.620
<v Audience>to international security.

1281
01:00:23.960 --> 01:00:25.960
<v Audience>I was curious as to know how,

1282
01:00:26.120 --> 01:00:29.140
<v Audience>given that most groups that suffer there

1283
01:00:29.140 --> 01:00:33.140
<v Audience>are already sort of impoverished and in marginalised situations

1284
01:00:33.140 --> 01:00:36.240
<v Audience>and often groups that are not really cared about an awful lot.

1285
01:00:36.380 --> 01:00:37.940
<v Audience>And if that is the case,

1286
01:00:37.960 --> 01:00:40.680
<v Audience>what's the American government doing about it?

1287
01:00:43.440 --> 01:00:44.620
<v Speaker 5>OK, very briefly.

1288
01:00:44.800 --> 01:00:49.100
<v Speaker 5>I think that there has been, over quite a long period of time,

1289
01:00:49.120 --> 01:00:49.520
<v Speaker 5>an understanding...

1290
01:00:49.540 --> 01:00:55.420
<v Speaker 5>that if you have a total breakdown of social and economic order,

1291
01:00:56.280 --> 01:01:01.920
<v Speaker 5>you create the conditions in which there are greater dangers,

1292
01:01:02.780 --> 01:01:09.720
<v Speaker 5>out of which comes the potential for recruiting more people to terrorism, etc.

1293
01:01:09.840 --> 01:01:10.780
<v Speaker 5>I'm paraphrasing.

1294
01:01:10.780 --> 01:01:11.900
<v Speaker 5>I'm not saying this is my belief.

1295
01:01:11.980 --> 01:01:16.660
<v Speaker 5>I'm saying that is the understanding that has been argued now quite consistently

1296
01:01:16.660 --> 01:01:18.360
<v Speaker 5>by people inside the CIA.

1297
01:01:18.620 --> 01:01:18.660
<v Speaker 5>OK.

1298
01:01:19.540 --> 01:01:20.780
<v Speaker 5>And other parts of the US administration.

1299
01:01:21.920 --> 01:01:23.920
<v Speaker 5>I mean, I was making a rhetorical point.

1300
01:01:24.020 --> 01:01:24.760
<v Speaker 5>Don't get me wrong.

1301
01:01:24.900 --> 01:01:30.220
<v Speaker 5>I think there's a great deal in the US international policies on HIV

1302
01:01:30.220 --> 01:01:31.280
<v Speaker 5>that is very dangerous,

1303
01:01:31.340 --> 01:01:33.220
<v Speaker 5>in particular the desire to link it

1304
01:01:33.220 --> 01:01:37.380
<v Speaker 5>to some sort of fundamentalist Christian teachings about abstinence,

1305
01:01:38.920 --> 01:01:41.760
<v Speaker 5>which causes all sorts of problems that I've already talked about.

1306
01:01:41.960 --> 01:01:45.240
<v Speaker 5>But the United States have, over the last year,

1307
01:01:45.380 --> 01:01:49.060
<v Speaker 5>pledged themselves to very significant funds of money,

1308
01:01:50.820 --> 01:01:52.900
<v Speaker 5>for HIV prevention and treatment.

1309
01:01:53.340 --> 01:01:54.780
<v Speaker 2>Can I just come in on there, Dennis?

1310
01:01:54.840 --> 01:01:56.520
<v Speaker 2>I think there's just...

1311
01:01:56.520 --> 01:01:58.440
<v Speaker 2>I beg to differ on some things too,

1312
01:01:58.480 --> 01:01:59.980
<v Speaker 2>which is very healthy in this festival of ideas.

1313
01:02:00.140 --> 01:02:01.580
<v Speaker 2>And that is that, on the whole,

1314
01:02:01.700 --> 01:02:04.280
<v Speaker 2>that fundamentalist abstinence mentality

1315
01:02:04.280 --> 01:02:07.100
<v Speaker 2>has meant that many of the programs...

1316
01:02:07.100 --> 01:02:10.340
<v Speaker 2>I mean, the United States has not paid any of the UN dues

1317
01:02:10.340 --> 01:02:13.180
<v Speaker 2>that are going to go to safe motherhood, safe sex,

1318
01:02:13.620 --> 01:02:16.580
<v Speaker 2>condom usage, or anything in any of the developed countries.

1319
01:02:16.700 --> 01:02:17.780
<v Speaker 2>They fund drugs.

1320
01:02:18.080 --> 01:02:19.520
<v Speaker 2>And when Bush...

1321
01:02:19.540 --> 01:02:22.260
<v Speaker 2>Bush came out at the end in his State of the Union address

1322
01:02:22.260 --> 01:02:23.560
<v Speaker 2>earlier this year,

1323
01:02:23.700 --> 01:02:26.820
<v Speaker 2>came out with this astounding, wonderful statement

1324
01:02:26.820 --> 01:02:27.920
<v Speaker 2>that everyone was so thrilled about,

1325
01:02:28.000 --> 01:02:31.400
<v Speaker 2>that they were going to fund cheap drugs in Africa.

1326
01:02:32.500 --> 01:02:34.020
<v Speaker 2>Apparently, as I understand it,

1327
01:02:34.040 --> 01:02:35.940
<v Speaker 2>from a leading article in the New York Times,

1328
01:02:36.160 --> 01:02:39.940
<v Speaker 2>that, in fact, was payback for the pharmaceutical companies

1329
01:02:39.940 --> 01:02:41.360
<v Speaker 2>who had got him elected.

1330
01:02:41.900 --> 01:02:43.520
<v Speaker 2>And that, in fact, what it was going to do

1331
01:02:43.520 --> 01:02:46.740
<v Speaker 2>was bridge the difference of what the cheap drugs would cost

1332
01:02:46.740 --> 01:02:48.460
<v Speaker 2>and what they would have got

1333
01:02:48.460 --> 01:02:49.520
<v Speaker 2>if they hadn't had to produce them.

1334
01:02:49.540 --> 01:02:50.460
<v Speaker 2>And that was to provide cheap drugs.

1335
01:02:50.740 --> 01:02:52.980
<v Speaker 2>So it was money that went straight from his pocket

1336
01:02:52.980 --> 01:02:54.880
<v Speaker 2>into the pocket of the pharmaceutical industry

1337
01:02:54.880 --> 01:02:56.840
<v Speaker 2>so they would re-elect him the next time.

1338
01:02:56.920 --> 01:02:58.020
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry if I'm sounding cynical.

1339
01:02:58.180 --> 01:03:00.520
<v Speaker 2>I'm paraphrasing what was in the New York Times.

1340
01:03:00.800 --> 01:03:03.380
<v Speaker 2>Now, if they really cared about preventing AIDS,

1341
01:03:03.500 --> 01:03:05.220
<v Speaker 2>they would go in with safe sex campaigns,

1342
01:03:05.520 --> 01:03:07.780
<v Speaker 2>condom campaigns, needle exchange programs,

1343
01:03:07.940 --> 01:03:09.420
<v Speaker 2>and all the things which they don't do

1344
01:03:09.420 --> 01:03:11.620
<v Speaker 2>because the fundamentalists who are driving that

1345
01:03:11.620 --> 01:03:12.700
<v Speaker 2>won't fund them.

1346
01:03:12.820 --> 01:03:15.900
<v Speaker 2>And they don't even pay their UN dues for safe motherhood.

1347
01:03:18.560 --> 01:03:19.020
<v Audience>Thank you.

1348
01:03:20.360 --> 01:03:23.420
<v Chair>And just to add to that, Theo, just...

1349
01:03:23.420 --> 01:03:24.880
<v Speaker 2>The United Nations didn't sign the United Nations Declaration

1350
01:03:24.880 --> 01:03:26.780
<v Speaker 2>on Human Rights for the Child, so...

1351
01:03:26.780 --> 01:03:28.680
<v Speaker 2>Of course, that's absolutely right,

1352
01:03:28.760 --> 01:03:30.760
<v Speaker 5>but stop making cheap political points.

1353
01:03:30.880 --> 01:03:32.680
<v Speaker 5>I mean, I could have said that as well.

1354
01:03:32.960 --> 01:03:35.700
<v Speaker 5>You know, this is too fucking easy to say.

1355
01:03:35.740 --> 01:03:37.220
<v Speaker 5>It's true, but my...

1356
01:03:37.220 --> 01:03:39.860
<v Speaker 2>It's also very powerfully important

1357
01:03:39.860 --> 01:03:41.720
<v Speaker 2>that if they want to prevent it,

1358
01:03:41.780 --> 01:03:43.400
<v Speaker 5>they've got to put it where the money is.

1359
01:03:43.620 --> 01:03:46.560
<v Speaker 5>The US is also funding many of the things you say they're not.

1360
01:03:46.800 --> 01:03:47.640
<v Speaker 4>Not condoms.

1361
01:03:47.820 --> 01:03:49.240
<v Speaker 4>Why don't they fund condoms?

1362
01:03:49.540 --> 01:03:51.000
<v Speaker 5>They are in many places.

1363
01:03:51.180 --> 01:03:51.380
<v Speaker 5>But they're not.

1364
01:03:51.700 --> 01:03:54.420
<v Speaker 4>The sensitive bar is against it.

1365
01:03:54.480 --> 01:03:55.620
<v Speaker 5>I know they're against it.

1366
01:03:55.660 --> 01:03:56.480
<v Speaker 5>I know exactly...

1367
01:03:56.480 --> 01:03:56.760
<v Speaker 5>I know.

1368
01:03:56.860 --> 01:03:58.480
<v Speaker 5>And I know what they're doing in the field.

1369
01:03:58.780 --> 01:03:59.200
<v Speaker 2>This is great.

1370
01:03:59.240 --> 01:04:00.680
<v Chair>Well, and also...

1371
01:04:00.680 --> 01:04:03.300
<v Chair>I mean, at the risk of...

1372
01:04:03.300 --> 01:04:05.420
<v Chair>They might even decide to wipe the debt

1373
01:04:05.420 --> 01:04:07.280
<v Chair>of some African countries, of course.

1374
01:04:08.240 --> 01:04:09.040
<v Chair>But unity.

1375
01:04:09.420 --> 01:04:11.420
<v Unity dow>I don't know about the politics too much,

1376
01:04:11.460 --> 01:04:12.420
<v Unity dow>but as a matter of fact,

1377
01:04:12.660 --> 01:04:13.620
<v Unity dow>I mean, in Botswana,

1378
01:04:13.660 --> 01:04:16.200
<v Unity dow>most of the money that goes into AIDS comes from the US.

1379
01:04:16.500 --> 01:04:18.280
<v Unity dow>Not from Australia, not from the UK,

1380
01:04:18.400 --> 01:04:19.420
<v Unity dow>not from anywhere.

1381
01:04:19.540 --> 01:04:19.780
<v Unity dow>Not from anybody else.

1382
01:04:21.120 --> 01:04:23.660
<v Unity dow>I don't know whether it comes from the US government

1383
01:04:23.660 --> 01:04:24.700
<v Unity dow>or US...

1384
01:04:24.700 --> 01:04:25.260
<v Speaker 2>US organizations.

1385
01:04:25.680 --> 01:04:27.460
<v Unity dow>US-based organizations.

1386
01:04:28.480 --> 01:04:29.760
<v Unity dow>I mean...

1387
01:04:30.460 --> 01:04:31.860
<v Unity dow>And my question has always been actually,

1388
01:04:32.020 --> 01:04:32.680
<v Unity dow>you know,

1389
01:04:32.700 --> 01:04:35.840
<v Unity dow>why isn't Europe playing a role here

1390
01:04:35.840 --> 01:04:39.540
<v Unity dow>in terms of funding HIV AIDS work?

1391
01:04:39.740 --> 01:04:40.700
<v Unity dow>In terms of research,

1392
01:04:40.820 --> 01:04:43.480
<v Unity dow>the clinical trials are primarily American-funded.

1393
01:04:44.940 --> 01:04:48.000
<v Unity dow>The biggest lab in Africa on HIV

1394
01:04:48.000 --> 01:04:49.200
<v Unity dow>is in Botswana.

1395
01:04:49.540 --> 01:04:50.340
<v Unity dow>It's funded by the Americans.

1396
01:04:51.420 --> 01:04:52.020
<v Unity dow>So...

1397
01:04:52.660 --> 01:04:53.260
<v Unity dow>Yeah.

1398
01:04:54.420 --> 01:04:54.840
<v Chair>All right, thanks.

1399
01:04:54.880 --> 01:04:56.840
<v Chair>I think just one very quick question

1400
01:04:56.840 --> 01:04:57.980
<v Chair>and then we'll wind up.

1401
01:04:58.300 --> 01:05:01.880
<v Audience>Because I heard some continued sort of murmurings

1402
01:05:01.880 --> 01:05:03.660
<v Audience>about this lemon idea

1403
01:05:03.660 --> 01:05:07.520
<v Audience>and even though a really good point had been made

1404
01:05:07.520 --> 01:05:11.000
<v Audience>about, you know, it's not fact or whatever yet,

1405
01:05:11.120 --> 01:05:13.240
<v Audience>I thought a bit of clarification

1406
01:05:13.240 --> 01:05:17.240
<v Audience>about the difference between having HIV in a test tube

1407
01:05:17.240 --> 01:05:18.420
<v Audience>and putting some lemon in it

1408
01:05:18.420 --> 01:05:19.520
<v Audience>to do something about it.

1409
01:05:24.320 --> 01:05:24.520
<v Audience>Yeah.

1410
01:05:46.780 --> 01:05:50.400
<v Speaker 2>You had to actually do clinical trials and practical clinical trials

1411
01:05:50.400 --> 01:05:56.220
<v Speaker 2>about what douching with lemon juice or whatever would do.

1412
01:05:56.540 --> 01:05:57.360
<v Speaker 2>And you've got to do...

1413
01:05:57.360 --> 01:06:00.200
<v Speaker 2>I mean, if it's going to be that good,

1414
01:06:00.300 --> 01:06:02.780
<v Speaker 2>it will demonstrate that in clinical trials.

1415
01:06:02.920 --> 01:06:05.740
<v Speaker 2>And clinical trials are where you randomly allocate people

1416
01:06:05.740 --> 01:06:07.640
<v Speaker 2>to receive the douching or not,

1417
01:06:07.700 --> 01:06:09.540
<v Speaker 2>and then you've got enough evidence at the end

1418
01:06:09.540 --> 01:06:12.440
<v Speaker 2>that the infection has been reduced.

1419
01:06:13.660 --> 01:06:14.380
<v Chair>All right.

1420
01:06:14.640 --> 01:06:16.360
<v Chair>Plague stirs up strong emotions.

1421
01:06:16.780 --> 01:06:18.920
<v Chair>Can the balcony have a last question, please?

1422
01:06:19.260 --> 01:06:19.900
<v Chair>I'm sorry.

1423
01:06:20.840 --> 01:06:22.040
<v Chair>I don't think so.

1424
01:06:22.080 --> 01:06:23.380
<v Chair>We actually have to wind up,

1425
01:06:23.420 --> 01:06:25.720
<v Chair>and I think proportionate to the size of the population,

1426
01:06:25.960 --> 01:06:27.360
<v Chair>the balconies had a fair say.

1427
01:06:27.640 --> 01:06:28.440
<v Chair>So I'm sorry.

1428
01:06:28.800 --> 01:06:32.100
<v Chair>But it's weird when the voice comes out of here

1429
01:06:32.100 --> 01:06:33.220
<v Chair>and the person's up there.

1430
01:06:33.420 --> 01:06:35.480
<v Chair>But just to wind up, as I say,

1431
01:06:35.500 --> 01:06:38.640
<v Chair>I think plague does raise high emotions.

1432
01:06:38.760 --> 01:06:41.200
<v Chair>I think the panel has got very passionate.

1433
01:06:41.300 --> 01:06:42.500
<v Chair>I think that's fantastic.

1434
01:06:42.640 --> 01:06:44.280
<v Chair>And thank you to the audience as well.

1435
01:06:48.240 --> 01:06:48.780
<v Chair>Thank you.

1436
01:06:48.780 --> 01:06:49.320
<v Chair>Thank you.

1437
01:06:49.760 --> 01:06:50.020
<v Chair>Thank you.