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<v Chair>Hi, welcome to the Mind Matters session at the Festival of Ideas.

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<v Chair>It's great to see such an enormous audience, it's wonderful.

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<v Chair>My name is Ian Ravenscroft, I'm from the Philosophy Department at Flinders,

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<v Chair>which is the only South Australian university that isn't on North Terrace.

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<v Chair>That's a big, big plus.

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<v Chair>I'm going to, actually, I've been asked to make a few small announcements,

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<v Chair>so I'll just do the housekeeping first.

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<v Chair>First, John Braithwaite's session was in the Art Gallery Auditorium

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<v Chair>and is now in Brookman,

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<v Chair>and Philippe Van Parich's session was in Brookman and is now in Benaethon.

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<v Chair>So there's been a bit of a switch around.

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<v Chair>So John Braithwaite has gone from the Art Gallery to Brookman,

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<v Chair>and Philippe has gone from Brookman to Benaethon.

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<v Chair>If you have a mobile phone, can you turn it off, please?

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<v Chair>It's annoying if it rings.

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<v Chair>After the session, you're going to have to leave the auditorium.

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<v Chair>So please make sure that you've got your things with you.

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<v Chair>Take all your belongings.

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<v Chair>You're welcome to use the side door over there.

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<v Chair>It might help with the crush a bit.

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<v Chair>And finally, there are two microphones.

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<v Chair>I'm not actually able to see them.

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<v Chair>There's one in the middle, and there's one down at the front, I think.

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<v Chair>So if you ask us at the back, thanks.

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<v Chair>If you ask for at the gallery.

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<v Chair>Thank you.

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<v Chair>I'm getting little hints here from the side.

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<v Chair>So if you want to ask a question, of course,

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<v Chair>that's going to be an important part of today's session.

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<v Chair>Please use the microphone.

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<v Chair>Don't just bellow out from your seat.

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<v Chair>People behind you won't be able to hear you,

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<v Chair>and the radio audience won't be able to hear you either.

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<v Chair>So now let me briefly introduce our speakers.

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<v Chair>Professor Max Coulthart from Macquarie University.

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<v Chair>He's the scientific director of the Macquarie Centre for Cognitive Science

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<v Chair>and a Federation Fellow.

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<v Chair>We have several Federation Fellows at the Festival of Ideas.

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<v Chair>If you don't know who they are,

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<v Chair>a Federation Fellowship is very...

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<v Chair>They're very prestigious.

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<v Chair>They're very hard to get.

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<v Chair>They pay very well, and they didn't give one to me.

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<v Chair>And that's, I'm sure, just a bureaucratic slip on their part,

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<v Chair>but they did give one to Max, and that's absolutely right.

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<v Chair>Next to Max is Joanna Burke, who is a historian.

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<v Chair>She's a professor at Birkbeck College,

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<v Chair>which is part of the University of London.

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<v Chair>Her most recent book is An Intimate History of Killing.

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<v Chair>It has won wide acclaim and a number of prizes.

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<v Chair>I recommend it highly, but not for bedtime reading

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<v Chair>if you don't want to have nightmares.

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<v Chair>It really is a very disturbing book.

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<v Chair>Our third speaker, third person across, is Philippe van Parijs,

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<v Chair>who is from the University of Levain,

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<v Chair>where he directs the Hoover Chair in Economic and Social Ethics.

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<v Chair>His most recent book is What's Wrong with a Free Lunch?

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<v Chair>I take it the answer's nothing,

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<v Chair>especially if they throw in some South Australian red wine.

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<v Chair>And finally, we have Stephanie Darick at the far end there.

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<v Chair>Stephanie is a writer of both fiction and non-fiction.

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<v Chair>She's interested in spirituality, psychology, and ethics,

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<v Chair>and many of you will know her from Radio National,

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<v Chair>especially the Life Matters program, where she's a regular contributor.

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<v Chair>So I'm now, just let me briefly mention how I'm going to conduct the session.

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<v Chair>Each of the speakers is going to speak in turn,

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<v Chair>around about five to ten minutes.

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<v Chair>I'm then going to introduce Stephanie Darick,

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<v Chair>and I'm going to invite each of them to make a brief comment

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<v Chair>on what someone else has said.

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<v Chair>Not on what they've said, on what one of the other speakers have said,

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<v Chair>and then I'm going to open up to the audience for questions.

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<v Chair>Okay, so Max Coulthard is our first speaker.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Ian, and welcome, everybody.

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<v Speaker 2>Mind Matters is an interestingly ambiguous title.

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<v Speaker 2>I was not sure what I was supposed to talk about.

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<v Speaker 2>The matter that mind is made of, or why mind is important,

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<v Speaker 2>or matters to do with the mind.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll say a little bit about all of those things,

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<v Speaker 2>so as to avoid the ambiguity.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, in 1999, the psychologist Steven Pinker

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<v Speaker 2>published a book called How the Mind Works.

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<v Speaker 2>And in 2001, the philosopher Jerry Fodor replied to Pinker

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<v Speaker 2>with a book called The Mind Doesn't Work That Way.

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<v Speaker 2>This doesn't sound so good for the science of mind,

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<v Speaker 2>but in fact, there's no real problem here.

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<v Speaker 2>Fodor and Pinker were just disagreeing about details.

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<v Speaker 2>They and others in cognitive science are in broad agreement

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<v Speaker 2>concerning how the mind works,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'd like to paint you a broad-brush picture

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<v Speaker 2>of what this agreed view is.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's take an example of minds actually working.

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<v Speaker 2>Right now, my mind and yours are working in concert, I hope.

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<v Speaker 2>I have a particular idea that I want to communicate to you,

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<v Speaker 2>and this idea is present in one part of my mind.

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<v Speaker 2>There's another part of my mind

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<v Speaker 2>that knows how to convert ideas to words,

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<v Speaker 2>so it generates a sequence of words

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<v Speaker 2>that expresses the idea that I want to get across to you.

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<v Speaker 2>And then there's another part of my mind

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<v Speaker 2>that knows how to convert words to speech,

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<v Speaker 2>so it converts the words into a sequence of sounds

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<v Speaker 2>that leave my mouth and enter your ear.

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<v Speaker 2>And now it's your mind's turn.

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<v Speaker 2>A part of your mind that knows how to turn sounds into speech

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<v Speaker 2>does that job.

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<v Speaker 2>Then a second part of your mind that knows how to convert speech

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<v Speaker 2>into words does that job.

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<v Speaker 2>And then lastly, a third part of your mind that knows how

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<v Speaker 2>to convert words into ideas recreates in your mind the idea

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<v Speaker 2>that was originally in mind.

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<v Speaker 2>And so that's how an idea gets from my mind into yours.

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<v Speaker 2>Idea to idea transfer, all done in a fraction of a second.

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<v Speaker 2>Here's a picture, then, of how minds work

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<v Speaker 2>when one person is listening to another person lecturing.

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<v Speaker 2>When two people are having a conversation,

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<v Speaker 2>other parts of the mind come into play,

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<v Speaker 2>a part that can use other people's facial expressions

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<v Speaker 2>to help understand what that person means,

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<v Speaker 2>a part that can work out when it's your turn to speak

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<v Speaker 2>and when it's the other's.

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<v Speaker 2>Turn to speak and so on.

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<v Speaker 2>So what we're seeing here is a conception of the mind

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<v Speaker 2>that both Fodor and Pinker would agree with,

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<v Speaker 2>a conception that the mind is composed of many distinct parts,

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<v Speaker 2>with each part being specialised for doing a particular mental job,

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<v Speaker 2>such as converting an idea into a sequence of words.

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<v Speaker 2>These specialised parts of the mind are known as mental modules,

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<v Speaker 2>and this basic idea is that the mind is modular.

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<v Speaker 2>It's made up of modules.

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<v Speaker 2>Each with a specialised job,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's the idea that's widely agreed with in cognitive science today.

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<v Speaker 2>Once we think about the mind like that,

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<v Speaker 2>it allows us to say something about an age-old question,

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<v Speaker 2>which is to do with the relationship of the brain to the mind.

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<v Speaker 2>I very much like the way this has been put by the philosopher Ned Block,

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<v Speaker 2>who simply says the mind is the software of the brain.

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<v Speaker 2>This is what he means.

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<v Speaker 2>A computer consists of hardware, microchips, transistors, etc.,

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<v Speaker 2>plus software,

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<v Speaker 2>in just the way that we consist of brain plus mind.

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<v Speaker 2>The different pieces of software in the computer

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<v Speaker 2>correspond to the different mental modules in the mind.

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<v Speaker 2>So the computer has one program that can do word processing,

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<v Speaker 2>another that can do spreadsheets,

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<v Speaker 2>another that can create PowerPoint presentations, and so on.

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<v Speaker 2>These programs run on the computer's hardware,

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<v Speaker 2>and Block's idea is that in just the same way,

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<v Speaker 2>the mind has a module for converting ideas to words,

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<v Speaker 2>for converting words to speech,

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<v Speaker 2>speech, etc.,

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<v Speaker 2>and these modules run on the brain.

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<v Speaker 2>So the modules can be thought of as programs

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<v Speaker 2>that run on a kind of hardware, which is the brain.

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<v Speaker 2>According to this approach,

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<v Speaker 2>one can describe the speaking that I'm currently doing

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<v Speaker 2>in two different ways.

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<v Speaker 2>At the mind level,

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<v Speaker 2>one can describe what mental modules I'm using

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<v Speaker 2>in order to translate ideas into speech

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<v Speaker 2>and to transmit the speech.

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<v Speaker 2>And cognitive scientists are interested in trying to learn more

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<v Speaker 2>about what those mental modules are like and how they work.

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<v Speaker 2>That's one way of describing what I'm doing.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the mind level.

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<v Speaker 2>Another way of describing what I'm doing is at the brain level.

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<v Speaker 2>You could talk about the various brain structures

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<v Speaker 2>that are in my brain that are operating in order for me to be speaking.

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<v Speaker 2>Talk about how those brain regions are organized

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<v Speaker 2>and where they are in the brain.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's the subject of cognitive neuroscience.

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<v Speaker 2>We're not describing two completely different things here.

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<v Speaker 2>We're describing one process, speaking, from two different perspectives.

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<v Speaker 2>The mental perspective.

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<v Speaker 2>and the brain perspective.

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<v Speaker 2>Just as we can describe word processing in the computer

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<v Speaker 2>from two different perspectives,

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<v Speaker 2>we can talk about how the word processing program works

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<v Speaker 2>or we can talk about which chips and transistors

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<v Speaker 2>are needed for doing the word processing.

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<v Speaker 2>In both cases, there's one process described in two different ways

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<v Speaker 2>and that's a way of thinking about the brain and the mind,

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<v Speaker 2>two different levels at which you could describe the same thing

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<v Speaker 2>rather than being two completely different entities.

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<v Speaker 2>This way of thinking about the relationship of mind to brain

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<v Speaker 2>seems to be a very satisfactory one,

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<v Speaker 2>was actually largely worked out in Adelaide 50 years ago

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<v Speaker 2>by the philosophers Alan Place and Jack Smart.

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<v Speaker 2>Now let's say something about the problem of consciousness.

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<v Speaker 2>Cognitive scientists and philosophers agonize over this daily.

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<v Speaker 2>The problem of consciousness, but they needn't

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<v Speaker 2>because it isn't really much of a problem.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a problem, but not a very big one

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<v Speaker 2>and the reason that it's only a small problem

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<v Speaker 2>is because it's not a big problem.

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<v Speaker 2>The problem is that only a very small part of our mental life

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<v Speaker 2>actually is conscious.

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<v Speaker 2>Most mental activity is not only unconscious,

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<v Speaker 2>but can't ever be made conscious.

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<v Speaker 2>Here's an example.

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<v Speaker 2>The noises I'm making now enter your ear.

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<v Speaker 2>A few hundreds of a second later,

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<v Speaker 2>there's an idea in your mind that these noises implanted.

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<v Speaker 2>What did your mind actually do in the few tenths of a second

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<v Speaker 2>between when the noise entered your ear

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<v Speaker 2>and when the idea appeared in your mind?

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<v Speaker 2>It didn't.

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<v Speaker 2>You haven't the faintest idea.

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<v Speaker 2>There's an example of a sequence of processes

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<v Speaker 2>that's not only unconscious,

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<v Speaker 2>but not accessible to consciousness.

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<v Speaker 2>You can't think,

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<v Speaker 2>how did I get from those noises to those ideas?

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<v Speaker 2>All that happens is the noises come in

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<v Speaker 2>and a moment later, the idea appears.

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<v Speaker 2>So there are mental processes that you don't have access to.

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<v Speaker 2>Indeed, I know more about them than you do

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<v Speaker 2>because the way to get access to them

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<v Speaker 2>is to do science on them.

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<v Speaker 2>So these are processes in your mind

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<v Speaker 2>about which I know a little more than you.

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<v Speaker 2>So even if cognitive science

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<v Speaker 2>never understood anything about consciousness,

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<v Speaker 2>it could still end up understanding

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<v Speaker 2>virtually everything about how the mind works

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<v Speaker 2>because so little of the mind is conscious.

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<v Speaker 2>That doesn't mean that the problem of consciousness

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<v Speaker 2>isn't interesting,

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<v Speaker 2>nor does it mean that cognitive science

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't already have some insights into it.

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<v Speaker 2>It just means we shouldn't agonize too much

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<v Speaker 2>about that particular component of cognitive science.

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<v Speaker 2>So far, I've talked about how the mind is modular,

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<v Speaker 2>about how the mind is modular,

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<v Speaker 2>about how to think about the relationship

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<v Speaker 2>of brain to mind, and about consciousness.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll say something next about intuition

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<v Speaker 2>and then conclude with some remarks

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<v Speaker 2>about the mind as seen from philosophy,

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<v Speaker 2>history, literature, and many other disciplines.

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<v Speaker 2>More than a century ago,

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<v Speaker 2>there was a chemist called Kekulé

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<v Speaker 2>who was trying to discover the chemical structure

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<v Speaker 2>of a particular substance, namely benzene.

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<v Speaker 2>He had a great deal of relevant data,

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<v Speaker 2>which he had been reflecting upon

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<v Speaker 2>for a great amount of time,

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<v Speaker 2>but he...

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<v Speaker 2>had no idea about what this was telling him

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<v Speaker 2>about the structure of benzene.

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<v Speaker 2>He couldn't see how to get from the data to the theory.

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<v Speaker 2>One night, it's said,

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<v Speaker 2>he had a peculiar dream about snakes.

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<v Speaker 2>He saw several snakes,

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<v Speaker 2>each with another snake's tail in its mouth,

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<v Speaker 2>arranged in a circle.

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<v Speaker 2>Recalling this when he woke up,

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<v Speaker 2>he immediately realized

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<v Speaker 2>that the structure of the benzene molecule

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<v Speaker 2>is a ring,

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<v Speaker 2>which turned out to be true.

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<v Speaker 2>Most of us have actually had experiences like this

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<v Speaker 2>in our own mental health,

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<v Speaker 2>in our own mental lives.

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<v Speaker 2>We can't remember the name of a particular person,

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<v Speaker 2>no matter how hard we try.

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<v Speaker 2>We know that further effort will be in vain,

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<v Speaker 2>so we give up.

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<v Speaker 2>Sometimes what will happen,

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<v Speaker 2>an hour later or a day later,

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<v Speaker 2>is the name will suddenly pop into our mind.

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<v Speaker 2>Most of us, I think, have had that kind of experience.

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<v Speaker 2>What made the name pop into our mind?

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<v Speaker 2>Mental events are not uncaused,

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<v Speaker 2>so something caused this mental event,

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<v Speaker 2>but nothing conscious caused it

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<v Speaker 2>because you weren't conscious of anything relevant

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<v Speaker 2>immediately before,

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<v Speaker 2>the name popped into your mind.

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<v Speaker 2>So what must have caused it is something unconscious.

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<v Speaker 2>It seems inevitable to argue

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<v Speaker 2>that what happened when we gave up

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<v Speaker 2>thinking about this name,

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<v Speaker 2>trying to find the name,

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<v Speaker 2>our conscious mind gave up,

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<v Speaker 2>but our unconscious mind didn't.

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<v Speaker 2>It went on its own merry way

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<v Speaker 2>trying to solve this problem,

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<v Speaker 2>just as Kekule's mind went on trying to discover

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<v Speaker 2>the structure of benzene

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<v Speaker 2>after his conscious mind gave up.

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<v Speaker 2>Intuitive solutions to problems

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<v Speaker 2>are those where we are unaware of the steps

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<v Speaker 2>towards the solution.

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<v Speaker 2>The solution just nakedly presents itself to consciousness,

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<v Speaker 2>but that doesn't mean it's uncaused.

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<v Speaker 2>A much better way to think about such solutions

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<v Speaker 2>is as gifts from unconscious parts of the mind

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<v Speaker 2>to the conscious part.

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<v Speaker 2>Finally, what about the contributions

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<v Speaker 2>to the understanding of mind

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<v Speaker 2>from disciplines other than psychology?

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<v Speaker 2>Surely psychology can't do it all.

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<v Speaker 2>That's correct,

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<v Speaker 2>but my examples are illustrating this.

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<v Speaker 2>I was once a psychologist,

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<v Speaker 2>but I am now a psychologist.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm no longer.

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<v Speaker 2>Now I'm a cognitive scientist.

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<v Speaker 2>Cognitive science is the interdisciplinary study of the mind.

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<v Speaker 2>In the examples I've discussed above,

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<v Speaker 2>I've drawn not only upon psychology,

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<v Speaker 2>but also upon philosophy,

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<v Speaker 2>linguistics and computer science.

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<v Speaker 2>And I could have drawn information from history,

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<v Speaker 2>anthropology, archaeology and literature,

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<v Speaker 2>which are also active components

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<v Speaker 2>of today's cognitive science agenda.

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<v Speaker 2>It's because all of these disciplines

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<v Speaker 2>have been drawn together into cognitive science,

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<v Speaker 2>to contribute their distinctive insights,

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<v Speaker 2>that we have made so much progress in recent years

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<v Speaker 2>in our understanding of how the human mind works.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you.

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<v Chair>Do you want an introduction?

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<v Speaker 3>That's a wonderful speech,

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<v Speaker 3>but I'm afraid we're going to change pace here quite a lot,

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<v Speaker 3>because I'm an historian,

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<v Speaker 3>and I want to focus on one aspect of our mental life,

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<v Speaker 3>and that is the emotional aspect,

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<v Speaker 3>because this is one of the areas

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<v Speaker 3>where historians in very recent years

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<v Speaker 3>have been grappling with,

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<v Speaker 3>because I think historians have very different ways

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<v Speaker 3>of looking at abstract concepts,

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<v Speaker 3>such as the mind and emotion.

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<v Speaker 3>But bluntly, I think until recent years,

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<v Speaker 3>we have taken the easy way out,

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<v Speaker 3>and we've simply ignored them.

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<v Speaker 3>This is a self-accusation as well.

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<v Speaker 3>Indeed, my earlier work on,

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<v Speaker 3>Women in the Irish Economy,

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<v Speaker 3>and even my book on the British working class,

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<v Speaker 3>in these books there are no emotions.

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<v Speaker 3>I portray 19th and 20th century Ireland and Britain

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<v Speaker 3>as peopled by economic subjects in skirts and trousers,

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<v Speaker 3>calmly calculating regression analyses

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<v Speaker 3>in the bogs of Donegal and the slums of Salford.

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<v Speaker 3>Now, in part, I think, in defense of history,

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<v Speaker 3>the reluctance of many historians

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<v Speaker 3>to analyze emotions stems from very serious problems of definition.

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<v Speaker 3>And I'm going to take my examples

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<v Speaker 3>about emotions from one in particular,

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<v Speaker 3>and that is fear,

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<v Speaker 3>because that's what I've been writing a lot about.

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<v Speaker 3>Looked at historically, subjective things such as feelings

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<v Speaker 3>are actually invisible for historians.

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<v Speaker 3>Even the body fails to unambiguously surrender its signs.

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<v Speaker 3>After all, different emotions elicit very different

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<v Speaker 3>visceral responses.

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<v Speaker 3>Adrenaline often overwhelms individuals

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<v Speaker 3>afraid of being attacked,

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<v Speaker 3>while individuals terrified of contracting tuberculosis,

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<v Speaker 3>for example, suffer no such physiological response.

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<v Speaker 3>The one area where historians do claim

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<v Speaker 3>to see the emotions at work are, of course, hospital records.

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<v Speaker 3>Psychiatric symptoms are seen as a robust indicator

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<v Speaker 3>of things like fear,

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<v Speaker 3>which is why the one area where historians do look at emotions

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<v Speaker 3>is in things like shell shock, post-traumatic stress disorder, etc.

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<v Speaker 3>But how can we recognize the day-to-day experiences of emotion?

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<v Speaker 3>For us, I think the answer to the question,

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<v Speaker 3>what was, what is a particular emotion,

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<v Speaker 3>what is or what was fear,

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<v Speaker 3>depends as much upon the psychological

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<v Speaker 3>or philosophical theory of the commentator

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<v Speaker 3>as it does on the situation in which that feeling,

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<v Speaker 3>that emotion emerged.

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<v Speaker 3>In other words, for the historian, notions of what is experienced

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<v Speaker 3>is fundamentally affected by cultural narratives.

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<v Speaker 3>Emotions enter the historical archive

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<v Speaker 3>only to the extent to which they transcend

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<v Speaker 3>the insularity of individual psychological sensation

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<v Speaker 3>and present the self within society.

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<v Speaker 3>For the historian, emotions are cultural artifacts.

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<v Speaker 3>There is no such thing as fear.

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<v Speaker 3>There are only fearful people.

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<v Speaker 3>And the only access that we have to these fearful people in the past

389
00:17:33.320 --> 00:17:36.720
<v Speaker 3>are, of course, through the things they left behind.

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<v Speaker 3>For historians, therefore, the important questions are,

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<v Speaker 3>how was the word fear used in cultural contexts

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<v Speaker 3>and what were the stories of fear

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<v Speaker 3>and the social norms involved in the expression of this emotion?

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<v Speaker 3>Thus, for example, a trauma, sorry, a tantrum in a society

395
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<v Speaker 3>which has no word for that phenomenon

396
00:17:59.900 --> 00:18:03.920
<v Speaker 3>is actually very different from a different experience

397
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<v Speaker 3>for both parent and child than is a tantrum that is labeled

398
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<v Speaker 3>and, of course, labeled with a particular connotation,

399
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<v Speaker 3>judgmental connotation.

400
00:18:14.780 --> 00:18:17.060
<v Speaker 3>As the words change, so too,

401
00:18:17.060 --> 00:18:20.400
<v Speaker 3>does the meaning of emotion within a particular culture.

402
00:18:20.800 --> 00:18:22.580
<v Speaker 3>In the words of Wittgenstein,

403
00:18:22.860 --> 00:18:25.820
<v Speaker 3>mental language is rendered significant

404
00:18:25.820 --> 00:18:33.020
<v Speaker 3>not by virtue of its capacity to reveal, mark, or describe mental states,

405
00:18:33.340 --> 00:18:37.860
<v Speaker 3>but by its function in human interaction and social interaction.

406
00:18:38.420 --> 00:18:39.760
<v Speaker 3>To take an example,

407
00:18:39.940 --> 00:18:44.080
<v Speaker 3>how might an historian look at changes,

408
00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:46.100
<v Speaker 3>remember, change is the crucial word for historian,

409
00:18:46.100 --> 00:18:49.740
<v Speaker 3>changes in the fear of pain, of dying.

410
00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:52.080
<v Speaker 3>In the 19th century,

411
00:18:52.220 --> 00:18:56.980
<v Speaker 3>I'm generalizing here,

412
00:18:57.120 --> 00:19:01.060
<v Speaker 3>but you can read the book when it comes out for a more detailed analysis,

413
00:19:01.260 --> 00:19:03.280
<v Speaker 3>but generally, 19th century,

414
00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:06.620
<v Speaker 3>consciousness during the process of dying

415
00:19:06.620 --> 00:19:10.080
<v Speaker 3>tended to be regarded as having very definite benefits.

416
00:19:10.660 --> 00:19:13.480
<v Speaker 3>The terror of dying was God-given,

417
00:19:13.620 --> 00:19:16.080
<v Speaker 3>providing the dying person with time to reflect,

418
00:19:16.100 --> 00:19:20.200
<v Speaker 3>time to ensure that in the day of his deceased he shall be blessed,

419
00:19:20.380 --> 00:19:23.200
<v Speaker 3>fear being the rock upon which Christ built his church.

420
00:19:24.100 --> 00:19:26.400
<v Speaker 3>In contrast, by the mid-20th century,

421
00:19:26.600 --> 00:19:31.880
<v Speaker 3>fear of pain seemed to loom much larger than fear of the hereafter.

422
00:19:33.100 --> 00:19:36.540
<v Speaker 3>Even in death, quality of life was more important

423
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<v Speaker 3>than any advantages that might be achieved by purging the soul.

424
00:19:41.260 --> 00:19:44.200
<v Speaker 3>Now, historians, of course, have to be very clear

425
00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:50.640
<v Speaker 3>about not to say whether individuals really felt more fear

426
00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:53.540
<v Speaker 3>in the process of dying as the century progressed.

427
00:19:53.960 --> 00:19:58.480
<v Speaker 3>They simply ask about the rules for displaying the fear of death.

428
00:19:58.780 --> 00:20:00.600
<v Speaker 3>Was it acceptable or was it not acceptable?

429
00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:04.100
<v Speaker 3>The meaning ascribed to the fear of death.

430
00:20:04.780 --> 00:20:08.020
<v Speaker 3>Was it a pious thing or was it pain avoidance?

431
00:20:08.220 --> 00:20:11.840
<v Speaker 3>And the effect of these rules, levels of sedation,

432
00:20:11.980 --> 00:20:13.280
<v Speaker 3>institutional inventions,

433
00:20:13.280 --> 00:20:16.240
<v Speaker 3>such as the post-1967 hospice movement.

434
00:20:16.840 --> 00:20:22.580
<v Speaker 3>Now, admittedly, these rules do influence actual emotional experience.

435
00:20:23.320 --> 00:20:27.720
<v Speaker 3>After all, a belief in the desirability or otherwise

436
00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:30.140
<v Speaker 3>of experiencing pain and dying,

437
00:20:30.340 --> 00:20:32.240
<v Speaker 3>or, I mean, many other examples,

438
00:20:32.460 --> 00:20:35.660
<v Speaker 3>a belief in the evolutionary origins of children's fears

439
00:20:35.660 --> 00:20:38.860
<v Speaker 3>or the role of the unconscious in producing nightmares,

440
00:20:39.060 --> 00:20:43.020
<v Speaker 3>profoundly influenced an individual's feelings.

441
00:20:43.280 --> 00:20:44.080
<v Speaker 3>They are not just the feelings about pain,

442
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<v Speaker 3>the dark interpretation of dreams,

443
00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:50.120
<v Speaker 3>but the historian's central focus is, of course,

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<v Speaker 3>only in those cultural rules

445
00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:55.940
<v Speaker 3>determining the display of any particular emotion.

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00:20:56.860 --> 00:20:59.220
<v Speaker 3>What this approach also does provide

447
00:20:59.220 --> 00:21:02.460
<v Speaker 3>is a space for the analysis of cultural texts,

448
00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:04.780
<v Speaker 3>such as literature, film, art.

449
00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:09.280
<v Speaker 3>After all, the act of speaking, writing, etc.,

450
00:21:09.280 --> 00:21:10.340
<v Speaker 3>one's fear,

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00:21:10.340 --> 00:21:13.560
<v Speaker 3>does change the sensation of that fear.

452
00:21:14.220 --> 00:21:16.360
<v Speaker 3>Emotional utterances or acts

453
00:21:16.360 --> 00:21:18.220
<v Speaker 3>have a unique capacity

454
00:21:18.220 --> 00:21:21.540
<v Speaker 3>to alter what they actually refer to

455
00:21:21.540 --> 00:21:23.100
<v Speaker 3>or what they represent.

456
00:21:23.840 --> 00:21:26.200
<v Speaker 3>More important, or most important for historians,

457
00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:29.400
<v Speaker 3>shifts in the way people narrate emotions

458
00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:31.940
<v Speaker 3>alter their subjective experience.

459
00:21:32.500 --> 00:21:36.060
<v Speaker 3>For instance, the theories people applied

460
00:21:36.060 --> 00:21:37.740
<v Speaker 3>in talking about nightmares

461
00:21:38.340 --> 00:21:40.320
<v Speaker 3>dramatically affected people's feelings,

462
00:21:40.340 --> 00:21:41.180
<v Speaker 3>the context,

463
00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:44.620
<v Speaker 3>and the affect of their nightmares.

464
00:21:44.860 --> 00:21:47.100
<v Speaker 3>Thus, Carl Jung's nightmares

465
00:21:47.100 --> 00:21:50.420
<v Speaker 3>bore all the traces of Jungian theory.

466
00:21:51.340 --> 00:21:53.460
<v Speaker 3>They feature uncanny visualizations

467
00:21:53.460 --> 00:21:54.640
<v Speaker 3>of mythical figures,

468
00:21:55.240 --> 00:21:56.820
<v Speaker 3>fantastic settings,

469
00:21:56.920 --> 00:21:58.220
<v Speaker 3>psychedelic transformations

470
00:21:58.220 --> 00:22:01.720
<v Speaker 3>of size, shape, geometrical structures.

471
00:22:02.120 --> 00:22:04.920
<v Speaker 3>In contrast, Freud's nightmares

472
00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:07.980
<v Speaker 3>are replete with latent meanings

473
00:22:07.980 --> 00:22:09.780
<v Speaker 3>lurking beneath a manifest,

474
00:22:10.340 --> 00:22:10.940
<v Speaker 3>dream structure.

475
00:22:12.820 --> 00:22:15.120
<v Speaker 3>Unlikely visualizations were drawn

476
00:22:15.120 --> 00:22:18.800
<v Speaker 3>predominantly from his own recent past experience

477
00:22:19.340 --> 00:22:20.900
<v Speaker 3>and only make sense

478
00:22:20.900 --> 00:22:23.300
<v Speaker 3>through the related memories

479
00:22:23.300 --> 00:22:25.840
<v Speaker 3>to which his free associations would lead.

480
00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:30.080
<v Speaker 3>But crassly, we dream the nightmares we narrate.

481
00:22:30.620 --> 00:22:31.980
<v Speaker 3>To take another example,

482
00:22:32.220 --> 00:22:33.680
<v Speaker 3>over and over again,

483
00:22:34.340 --> 00:22:36.280
<v Speaker 3>servicemen prior to the Second World War,

484
00:22:36.700 --> 00:22:39.800
<v Speaker 3>their accounts of their experiences in war,

485
00:22:39.800 --> 00:22:41.920
<v Speaker 3>prior to the Second World War,

486
00:22:42.020 --> 00:22:43.640
<v Speaker 3>used the language of instincts

487
00:22:43.640 --> 00:22:46.780
<v Speaker 3>to describe their emotion in war.

488
00:22:47.180 --> 00:22:50.220
<v Speaker 3>This language was drawn from evolutionary notions

489
00:22:50.220 --> 00:22:54.380
<v Speaker 3>about emotions arising out of universal instincts

490
00:22:54.380 --> 00:22:56.420
<v Speaker 3>such as self-preservation,

491
00:22:57.180 --> 00:22:59.240
<v Speaker 3>aggression, self-assertion, etc.

492
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:03.120
<v Speaker 3>As William James put it in Principles of Psychology,

493
00:23:03.660 --> 00:23:06.540
<v Speaker 3>every stimulus that excites an instinct

494
00:23:06.540 --> 00:23:08.680
<v Speaker 3>excites an emotion as well.

495
00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:12.400
<v Speaker 3>These instincts were inherited from the brutes

496
00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:13.700
<v Speaker 3>and could not be avoided.

497
00:23:13.800 --> 00:23:17.660
<v Speaker 3>So in popular accounts of fear in wartime,

498
00:23:17.760 --> 00:23:19.100
<v Speaker 3>this is the language adopted.

499
00:23:19.820 --> 00:23:22.220
<v Speaker 3>Thus, fear and panic in combat

500
00:23:22.220 --> 00:23:25.020
<v Speaker 3>is said to involve the feeling of being taken over

501
00:23:25.020 --> 00:23:26.680
<v Speaker 3>by primitive bloodlust.

502
00:23:27.300 --> 00:23:30.840
<v Speaker 3>People return to our real selves only afterwards.

503
00:23:31.460 --> 00:23:33.980
<v Speaker 3>Thus, in a typical account from the First World War,

504
00:23:34.600 --> 00:23:37.480
<v Speaker 3>Charles Stuart Alexander described his emotions in combat

505
00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:38.660
<v Speaker 3>as a hint of fear.

506
00:23:38.660 --> 00:23:40.680
<v Speaker 3>A heady mixture of fiendish joy

507
00:23:41.660 --> 00:23:43.260
<v Speaker 3>arising out of being suddenly overwhelmed

508
00:23:43.260 --> 00:23:45.320
<v Speaker 3>by my primitive instincts.

509
00:23:45.740 --> 00:23:47.520
<v Speaker 3>In the terror of combat,

510
00:23:47.760 --> 00:23:50.680
<v Speaker 3>men reverted to their animalistic inheritance.

511
00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:54.700
<v Speaker 3>But this language completely changes

512
00:23:54.700 --> 00:23:59.400
<v Speaker 3>certainly by the 1950s, 1960s,

513
00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:02.340
<v Speaker 3>when the fashionably self-conscious

514
00:24:03.560 --> 00:24:06.980
<v Speaker 3>psychoanalytical style of war memoirs

515
00:24:06.980 --> 00:24:08.440
<v Speaker 3>encouraged a more detailed,

516
00:24:08.660 --> 00:24:09.320
<v Speaker 3>more individual,

517
00:24:09.420 --> 00:24:11.340
<v Speaker 3>and more confessional rendering

518
00:24:11.340 --> 00:24:13.580
<v Speaker 3>of battle reminiscences.

519
00:24:14.200 --> 00:24:17.300
<v Speaker 3>Popular Freudianism resulted in an increase

520
00:24:17.300 --> 00:24:20.040
<v Speaker 3>in sexual metaphors to describe the fear

521
00:24:20.040 --> 00:24:21.500
<v Speaker 3>engendered by combat.

522
00:24:21.840 --> 00:24:24.260
<v Speaker 3>Most typically, the description of fear

523
00:24:24.260 --> 00:24:25.360
<v Speaker 3>as, quote,

524
00:24:25.520 --> 00:24:27.840
<v Speaker 3>inciting an ache as profound

525
00:24:27.840 --> 00:24:29.520
<v Speaker 3>as the ache of orgasm.

526
00:24:29.700 --> 00:24:31.920
<v Speaker 3>In other words, during the earlier period,

527
00:24:32.020 --> 00:24:35.520
<v Speaker 3>the language of instincts is used,

528
00:24:35.620 --> 00:24:36.840
<v Speaker 3>in other words, the language of fear.

529
00:24:36.980 --> 00:24:38.620
<v Speaker 3>By the 1960s,

530
00:24:38.620 --> 00:24:41.040
<v Speaker 3>it's the language of popular psychoanalysis,

531
00:24:41.080 --> 00:24:42.600
<v Speaker 3>the language of anxiety.

532
00:24:44.020 --> 00:24:45.860
<v Speaker 3>Finally, and this is where historians

533
00:24:45.860 --> 00:24:47.720
<v Speaker 3>have many more difficulties,

534
00:24:48.560 --> 00:24:52.340
<v Speaker 3>our emphasis on the things people left behind,

535
00:24:52.540 --> 00:24:54.040
<v Speaker 3>words, images, etc.,

536
00:24:54.620 --> 00:24:57.120
<v Speaker 3>does not mean to say that we can ignore

537
00:24:57.120 --> 00:24:58.480
<v Speaker 3>the body totally.

538
00:24:59.020 --> 00:25:02.180
<v Speaker 3>Indisputably, emotions have a physiology.

539
00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:05.180
<v Speaker 3>Although there is a theatre

540
00:25:05.180 --> 00:25:06.960
<v Speaker 3>to the physiology of fear,

541
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:10.060
<v Speaker 3>executives acting out anxiety,

542
00:25:10.280 --> 00:25:10.860
<v Speaker 3>new OCs,

543
00:25:11.020 --> 00:25:12.980
<v Speaker 3>postal workers acting out hysteria,

544
00:25:13.100 --> 00:25:14.960
<v Speaker 3>it is not always choreographed

545
00:25:15.740 --> 00:25:17.960
<v Speaker 3>according to any predetermined schema

546
00:25:18.500 --> 00:25:21.180
<v Speaker 3>of class, gender, ethnicity.

547
00:25:21.660 --> 00:25:24.220
<v Speaker 3>The emotion of fear is fundamentally

548
00:25:24.220 --> 00:25:26.220
<v Speaker 3>about the body, its fleshiness,

549
00:25:26.420 --> 00:25:27.580
<v Speaker 3>its precariousness.

550
00:25:27.840 --> 00:25:31.240
<v Speaker 3>Fear is felt, and although the emotion

551
00:25:31.240 --> 00:25:34.140
<v Speaker 3>cannot be reduced to its sensation,

552
00:25:35.040 --> 00:25:36.940
<v Speaker 3>nevertheless, it's not precarious.

553
00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:38.540
<v Speaker 3>It is present without that sensation.

554
00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:42.300
<v Speaker 3>In noting that the body is not simply

555
00:25:42.300 --> 00:25:44.280
<v Speaker 3>the shell through which the emotions

556
00:25:44.280 --> 00:25:46.840
<v Speaker 3>are expressed, the social constructivists

557
00:25:46.840 --> 00:25:47.360
<v Speaker 3>are right.

558
00:25:47.860 --> 00:25:49.300
<v Speaker 3>Discourse shapes bodies.

559
00:25:49.800 --> 00:25:52.780
<v Speaker 3>However, bodies also shape discourse.

560
00:25:53.300 --> 00:25:55.500
<v Speaker 3>People are weak or pale with fright,

561
00:25:55.740 --> 00:25:58.700
<v Speaker 3>paralyzed by fear, chilled by terror.

562
00:25:59.120 --> 00:26:01.260
<v Speaker 3>The feeling of fear may be independent

563
00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:04.800
<v Speaker 3>of social construction, a one-sided process.

564
00:26:04.800 --> 00:26:07.860
<v Speaker 3>After all, people in different times,

565
00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:09.500
<v Speaker 3>different places may have experienced

566
00:26:09.500 --> 00:26:13.520
<v Speaker 3>identical physiological responses to threat.

567
00:26:13.860 --> 00:26:17.580
<v Speaker 3>Nevertheless, these are fundamentally constituted.

568
00:26:17.720 --> 00:26:20.080
<v Speaker 3>In other words, agents are involved

569
00:26:20.080 --> 00:26:22.640
<v Speaker 3>in creating the self in a dynamic process

570
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:24.880
<v Speaker 3>that is, at the same time,

571
00:26:24.960 --> 00:26:26.440
<v Speaker 3>a coming into being.

572
00:26:26.780 --> 00:26:29.300
<v Speaker 3>In this way, the body plays a role

573
00:26:29.300 --> 00:26:30.400
<v Speaker 3>in social agency.

574
00:26:30.800 --> 00:26:33.440
<v Speaker 3>The sensation of fear is not merely

575
00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:34.780
<v Speaker 3>the ornament of fear,

576
00:26:34.800 --> 00:26:35.100
<v Speaker 3>but the emotion.

577
00:26:35.500 --> 00:26:37.700
<v Speaker 3>Fear is what hurts.

578
00:26:37.940 --> 00:26:39.900
<v Speaker 3>The most irreducible real

579
00:26:39.900 --> 00:26:41.700
<v Speaker 3>of an individual's history.

580
00:26:42.460 --> 00:26:45.800
<v Speaker 3>In the individual process of coming into being,

581
00:26:46.020 --> 00:26:47.840
<v Speaker 3>the question becomes for the historian,

582
00:26:48.100 --> 00:26:50.680
<v Speaker 3>what is the relationship between

583
00:26:50.680 --> 00:26:53.440
<v Speaker 3>individual emotions and society?

584
00:26:54.320 --> 00:26:55.940
<v Speaker 3>Historians ask the question,

585
00:26:56.080 --> 00:26:58.360
<v Speaker 3>what is this fear doing?

586
00:26:58.860 --> 00:27:02.500
<v Speaker 3>The history of emotions can't ignore power relations.

587
00:27:02.560 --> 00:27:03.800
<v Speaker 3>Too often, the psychoanalytical

588
00:27:04.080 --> 00:27:06.460
<v Speaker 3>assumption that fear resides

589
00:27:06.460 --> 00:27:08.440
<v Speaker 3>in the individual psyche leads

590
00:27:08.440 --> 00:27:11.360
<v Speaker 3>to an individualizing of historical change.

591
00:27:11.740 --> 00:27:17.040
<v Speaker 3>In other words, use of fear turns social inequality

592
00:27:17.040 --> 00:27:18.740
<v Speaker 3>into a psychological mood.

593
00:27:19.620 --> 00:27:22.080
<v Speaker 3>In contrast, fear is not simply spawned

594
00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:24.120
<v Speaker 3>within individual psyches

595
00:27:24.120 --> 00:27:27.680
<v Speaker 3>before stretching out to other subjects or objects.

596
00:27:27.900 --> 00:27:30.640
<v Speaker 3>Dynamic psychology not being dynamic enough

597
00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:31.760
<v Speaker 3>when applied to the past.

598
00:27:32.680 --> 00:27:34.060
<v Speaker 3>Emotions are not in the same order

599
00:27:34.060 --> 00:27:36.640
<v Speaker 3>as merely reports of inner states.

600
00:27:38.780 --> 00:27:41.040
<v Speaker 3>Crucially, emotions such as fear

601
00:27:41.040 --> 00:27:43.380
<v Speaker 3>do not belong to individuals or social groups,

602
00:27:43.620 --> 00:27:47.020
<v Speaker 3>but they mediate between the individual and the social.

603
00:27:47.220 --> 00:27:48.360
<v Speaker 3>They are about power relations,

604
00:27:48.840 --> 00:27:51.140
<v Speaker 3>leading to a negotiation of the boundary

605
00:27:51.140 --> 00:27:53.400
<v Speaker 3>between self and other,

606
00:27:53.520 --> 00:27:55.420
<v Speaker 3>or one community and another.

607
00:27:56.580 --> 00:27:58.360
<v Speaker 3>Emotions mediate the boundaries

608
00:27:58.360 --> 00:28:01.340
<v Speaker 3>between bodily space and social space.

609
00:28:01.680 --> 00:28:04.040
<v Speaker 3>In other words, fear is not

610
00:28:04.060 --> 00:28:05.920
<v Speaker 3>a form of emotional labor

611
00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:08.500
<v Speaker 3>that endows objects and others

612
00:28:08.500 --> 00:28:10.540
<v Speaker 3>with meaning and power.

613
00:28:10.900 --> 00:28:12.180
<v Speaker 3>The feminist slogan,

614
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:13.600
<v Speaker 3>the personal is political,

615
00:28:13.980 --> 00:28:15.600
<v Speaker 3>takes on new meaning, I think,

616
00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:17.240
<v Speaker 3>in the history of emotions,

617
00:28:18.060 --> 00:28:18.760
<v Speaker 3>or emotional expression.

618
00:28:19.180 --> 00:28:20.020
<v Speaker 3>Just to conclude,

619
00:28:20.300 --> 00:28:23.580
<v Speaker 3>the scientific discourse of the mind

620
00:28:23.580 --> 00:28:25.740
<v Speaker 3>is one that has and continues to

621
00:28:25.740 --> 00:28:27.380
<v Speaker 3>fascinate historians,

622
00:28:27.600 --> 00:28:29.760
<v Speaker 3>but our approach is, in fact,

623
00:28:29.780 --> 00:28:31.860
<v Speaker 3>extremely different, fundamentally different,

624
00:28:32.020 --> 00:28:33.320
<v Speaker 3>from the scientists.

625
00:28:34.060 --> 00:28:35.920
<v Speaker 3>In my book on fear, for example,

626
00:28:36.080 --> 00:28:39.680
<v Speaker 3>I look at the ways over the last one and a half centuries

627
00:28:39.680 --> 00:28:43.880
<v Speaker 3>the great clashes between different forms of truth

628
00:28:43.880 --> 00:28:45.260
<v Speaker 3>were played out.

629
00:28:46.060 --> 00:28:47.660
<v Speaker 3>From the 19th century, in other words,

630
00:28:47.660 --> 00:28:50.340
<v Speaker 3>evolutionary, psychoanalytical, neurological,

631
00:28:51.220 --> 00:28:53.780
<v Speaker 3>psychological, even the cognitive branch,

632
00:28:54.040 --> 00:28:57.500
<v Speaker 3>all these truths faced up to each other

633
00:28:57.500 --> 00:28:59.860
<v Speaker 3>in a bruising battle of wits,

634
00:28:59.920 --> 00:29:02.740
<v Speaker 3>with each claiming to possess

635
00:29:02.740 --> 00:29:04.040
<v Speaker 3>a particular economic power.

636
00:29:04.060 --> 00:29:05.860
<v Speaker 3>There was a lot of expertise in diagnosing

637
00:29:05.860 --> 00:29:08.000
<v Speaker 3>and curing extremes of fear,

638
00:29:08.220 --> 00:29:10.240
<v Speaker 3>or extremes of any of the emotions, in fact.

639
00:29:10.860 --> 00:29:13.820
<v Speaker 3>Historians don't seek to address the question

640
00:29:13.820 --> 00:29:15.760
<v Speaker 3>which authority is right,

641
00:29:16.060 --> 00:29:19.420
<v Speaker 3>merely to address the question of why or when

642
00:29:19.420 --> 00:29:22.980
<v Speaker 3>does a particular mind come into being.

643
00:29:24.060 --> 00:29:25.560
<v Speaker 3>I think, put crudely,

644
00:29:25.600 --> 00:29:28.880
<v Speaker 3>history is like a good novel,

645
00:29:28.940 --> 00:29:32.740
<v Speaker 3>how did the damsel get on the back of that black horse,

646
00:29:32.740 --> 00:29:33.660
<v Speaker 3>that black charger,

647
00:29:33.800 --> 00:29:37.340
<v Speaker 3>rather than the scientific holy writ,

648
00:29:38.740 --> 00:29:40.400
<v Speaker 3>you know, which heaven or hell

649
00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:42.940
<v Speaker 3>is the glycerine horse of the apocalypse

650
00:29:42.940 --> 00:29:44.200
<v Speaker 3>going to take us?

651
00:29:44.320 --> 00:29:44.840
<v Speaker 3>Thanks.

652
00:29:56.960 --> 00:29:59.520
<v Speaker 4>When I was an adolescent,

653
00:29:59.520 --> 00:30:04.360
<v Speaker 4>at the time I decided to become a philosopher

654
00:30:04.360 --> 00:30:05.920
<v Speaker 4>rather than a lawyer,

655
00:30:06.100 --> 00:30:09.080
<v Speaker 4>as I had intended until then,

656
00:30:09.220 --> 00:30:13.260
<v Speaker 4>I used to ask myself deep questions,

657
00:30:13.380 --> 00:30:16.680
<v Speaker 4>such as, what is consciousness?

658
00:30:17.300 --> 00:30:22.800
<v Speaker 4>Or, can I be 100% sure that I exist?

659
00:30:23.380 --> 00:30:28.320
<v Speaker 4>Or, why is there something instead of nothing?

660
00:30:28.320 --> 00:30:29.780
<v Speaker 4>Yes, why?

661
00:30:31.540 --> 00:30:36.600
<v Speaker 4>And, after a few minutes of focusing on these questions,

662
00:30:36.760 --> 00:30:38.600
<v Speaker 4>my mind simply went blank,

663
00:30:38.760 --> 00:30:40.820
<v Speaker 4>and I started becoming dizzy,

664
00:30:40.980 --> 00:30:43.120
<v Speaker 4>and I switched to something else.

665
00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:47.840
<v Speaker 4>When, a number of years later,

666
00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:52.000
<v Speaker 4>I became a so-called professional philosopher,

667
00:30:52.380 --> 00:30:54.460
<v Speaker 4>I discovered, to my relief,

668
00:30:54.660 --> 00:30:57.040
<v Speaker 4>that enough of my colleagues were busy

669
00:30:57.040 --> 00:30:58.300
<v Speaker 4>dealing with these questions,

670
00:30:58.320 --> 00:30:59.580
<v Speaker 4>these deep questions,

671
00:30:59.820 --> 00:31:02.460
<v Speaker 4>and I turned to more tractable ones,

672
00:31:02.600 --> 00:31:05.040
<v Speaker 4>such as, what is a just society?

673
00:31:05.340 --> 00:31:07.240
<v Speaker 4>It seemed more tractable,

674
00:31:07.340 --> 00:31:08.980
<v Speaker 4>difficult enough, but tractable,

675
00:31:09.040 --> 00:31:10.700
<v Speaker 4>and moreover relevant,

676
00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:15.320
<v Speaker 4>immediately relevant to guiding my own existence

677
00:31:15.320 --> 00:31:17.160
<v Speaker 4>or my own commitments.

678
00:31:17.440 --> 00:31:23.640
<v Speaker 4>Yet, I couldn't quite escape these deeper questions,

679
00:31:23.840 --> 00:31:26.100
<v Speaker 4>because, as a political philosopher,

680
00:31:26.340 --> 00:31:28.300
<v Speaker 4>I was forced to refer to

681
00:31:28.300 --> 00:31:34.160
<v Speaker 4>what the various relevant scientific disciplines were up to.

682
00:31:34.820 --> 00:31:39.780
<v Speaker 4>And, for those who expect some sort of clash

683
00:31:40.300 --> 00:31:42.900
<v Speaker 4>between science and freedom,

684
00:31:43.180 --> 00:31:46.760
<v Speaker 4>between determinism and choice,

685
00:31:47.800 --> 00:31:48.880
<v Speaker 4>there was there,

686
00:31:49.060 --> 00:31:52.720
<v Speaker 4>when you reflect on what the social sciences are doing,

687
00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:55.600
<v Speaker 4>there was there a big surprise.

688
00:31:56.560 --> 00:31:58.000
<v Speaker 4>Because there is,

689
00:31:58.300 --> 00:32:02.600
<v Speaker 4>one discipline in the social sciences,

690
00:32:02.800 --> 00:32:08.260
<v Speaker 4>which, very far from denying or undermining freedom,

691
00:32:09.600 --> 00:32:11.580
<v Speaker 4>essentially, at its core,

692
00:32:12.300 --> 00:32:14.420
<v Speaker 4>assumes it, rests on it.

693
00:32:15.220 --> 00:32:19.080
<v Speaker 4>And this discipline is the most materialistic

694
00:32:19.080 --> 00:32:21.080
<v Speaker 4>of all social sciences.

695
00:32:21.460 --> 00:32:25.320
<v Speaker 4>It is the queen discipline of the social sciences,

696
00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:28.000
<v Speaker 4>if there is one, certainly,

697
00:32:28.300 --> 00:32:30.420
<v Speaker 4>though that's not decisive evidence,

698
00:32:30.580 --> 00:32:32.720
<v Speaker 4>the only discipline in the social sciences

699
00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:36.740
<v Speaker 4>for which people bother to create a Nobel Prize,

700
00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:37.560
<v Speaker 4>economics.

701
00:32:40.020 --> 00:32:42.820
<v Speaker 4>Economics, like any other discipline,

702
00:32:43.160 --> 00:32:45.440
<v Speaker 4>relies on causal explanation.

703
00:32:46.020 --> 00:32:49.540
<v Speaker 4>It ascribes effects to causes.

704
00:32:49.980 --> 00:32:53.160
<v Speaker 4>For example, so in the paper this morning,

705
00:32:53.180 --> 00:32:56.480
<v Speaker 4>that the price of houses throughout Australia

706
00:32:56.480 --> 00:32:58.300
<v Speaker 4>has increased considerably,

707
00:32:58.500 --> 00:32:59.740
<v Speaker 4>well, economists will say,

708
00:33:01.020 --> 00:33:02.920
<v Speaker 4>as reported in the paper,

709
00:33:03.020 --> 00:33:06.140
<v Speaker 4>and it will sound sensible to all of us,

710
00:33:06.200 --> 00:33:08.700
<v Speaker 4>well, the price of houses went up quite considerably

711
00:33:08.700 --> 00:33:13.060
<v Speaker 4>because of a significant and persistent fall in interest rates.

712
00:33:14.120 --> 00:33:15.980
<v Speaker 4>There is a causal link there,

713
00:33:16.120 --> 00:33:21.940
<v Speaker 4>but this causation doesn't operate despite people's freedom,

714
00:33:22.060 --> 00:33:24.440
<v Speaker 4>but through people's freedom,

715
00:33:24.440 --> 00:33:28.240
<v Speaker 4>through the decision of some people

716
00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:31.180
<v Speaker 4>to buy a house instead of waiting,

717
00:33:31.420 --> 00:33:34.780
<v Speaker 4>to offer a certain price,

718
00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:37.420
<v Speaker 4>which they then find reasonable for a house,

719
00:33:37.540 --> 00:33:38.980
<v Speaker 4>to ask for the price,

720
00:33:39.060 --> 00:33:41.040
<v Speaker 4>a certain price, a certain level of price,

721
00:33:41.140 --> 00:33:43.380
<v Speaker 4>for the house they want to sell.

722
00:33:44.740 --> 00:33:49.260
<v Speaker 4>People's free decisions are an essential part,

723
00:33:49.420 --> 00:33:52.340
<v Speaker 4>the central part of the causal mechanism

724
00:33:52.340 --> 00:33:54.420
<v Speaker 4>of what enables people to buy a house,

725
00:33:54.440 --> 00:33:57.300
<v Speaker 4>and what enables us to predict and to explain.

726
00:33:57.940 --> 00:34:01.180
<v Speaker 4>Freedom, in this case, in other words,

727
00:34:01.340 --> 00:34:03.220
<v Speaker 4>is at the core of determinism,

728
00:34:03.240 --> 00:34:05.020
<v Speaker 4>it's the substance of determinism.

729
00:34:06.360 --> 00:34:08.980
<v Speaker 4>There is underlying these explanations

730
00:34:08.980 --> 00:34:13.880
<v Speaker 4>a very simple, stylized picture of the mind,

731
00:34:14.120 --> 00:34:21.400
<v Speaker 4>as homo economicus expected in the jargon of the economists,

732
00:34:21.580 --> 00:34:24.360
<v Speaker 4>expected utility maximizing behavior.

733
00:34:24.440 --> 00:34:26.880
<v Speaker 4>Which, put very simply,

734
00:34:26.960 --> 00:34:32.320
<v Speaker 4>just means that people act on the basis of their beliefs

735
00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:33.540
<v Speaker 4>and of their desires.

736
00:34:34.100 --> 00:34:40.860
<v Speaker 4>Their beliefs are depicted in a stylized form by economists

737
00:34:40.860 --> 00:34:42.940
<v Speaker 4>as simply a distribution of probabilities

738
00:34:42.940 --> 00:34:44.460
<v Speaker 4>over states of the world.

739
00:34:45.140 --> 00:34:47.880
<v Speaker 4>People's beliefs and people's desires

740
00:34:47.880 --> 00:34:51.540
<v Speaker 4>are simply represented by economists

741
00:34:51.540 --> 00:34:54.420
<v Speaker 4>as a distribution of levels of probability.

742
00:34:54.440 --> 00:34:56.680
<v Speaker 4>Of utility levels of well-being

743
00:34:57.440 --> 00:35:00.160
<v Speaker 4>over these same states of the world.

744
00:35:00.540 --> 00:35:05.380
<v Speaker 4>These designs can incorporate values as well as interests,

745
00:35:05.640 --> 00:35:07.980
<v Speaker 4>and the economists' assumption is simply

746
00:35:07.980 --> 00:35:12.640
<v Speaker 4>that people behaving rationally will maximize,

747
00:35:12.820 --> 00:35:15.080
<v Speaker 4>will choose among the various options available,

748
00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:20.280
<v Speaker 4>that option which will correspond to the highest expected level

749
00:35:20.280 --> 00:35:22.160
<v Speaker 4>of well-being,

750
00:35:22.300 --> 00:35:24.420
<v Speaker 4>taking probabilities down.

751
00:35:24.440 --> 00:35:24.480
<v Speaker 4>Well, the best way to do this is to

752
00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:25.040
<v Speaker 4>to take the most important things into account.

753
00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:35.460
<v Speaker 4>A fine, detailed neurophysiological description

754
00:35:35.460 --> 00:35:39.520
<v Speaker 4>of what's going on in our brain when we take decisions

755
00:35:39.520 --> 00:35:44.060
<v Speaker 4>will not make freedom disappear.

756
00:35:44.860 --> 00:35:48.260
<v Speaker 4>It will provide a more comprehensive description

757
00:35:48.260 --> 00:35:52.120
<v Speaker 4>of the causal link, at best,

758
00:35:54.440 --> 00:35:54.680
<v Speaker 4>of what's going on in our brain.

759
00:35:54.680 --> 00:35:59.620
<v Speaker 4>In addition, determinism, understood as predictability,

760
00:35:59.920 --> 00:36:02.660
<v Speaker 4>is already there in any case,

761
00:36:02.720 --> 00:36:08.540
<v Speaker 4>and this determinism operates precisely through freedom.

762
00:36:10.060 --> 00:36:17.360
<v Speaker 4>So, looking at such a materialistic discipline as economics

763
00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:22.480
<v Speaker 4>makes us aware that we shouldn't think in too simplistic a way

764
00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:26.320
<v Speaker 4>about this relationship between determinism and freedom.

765
00:36:27.140 --> 00:36:33.440
<v Speaker 4>But let me just finish by introducing two clarifications

766
00:36:34.480 --> 00:36:36.400
<v Speaker 4>and qualifications to what I've just said.

767
00:36:37.740 --> 00:36:42.140
<v Speaker 4>First of all, it must be recognized by economists

768
00:36:42.140 --> 00:36:44.800
<v Speaker 4>and indeed by social scientists more generally,

769
00:36:44.820 --> 00:36:47.660
<v Speaker 4>because a great deal of the social sciences,

770
00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:49.660
<v Speaker 4>not all, and I'll say why,

771
00:36:49.660 --> 00:36:54.280
<v Speaker 4>can be understood as a generalization of economics so defined.

772
00:36:55.380 --> 00:36:59.600
<v Speaker 4>But, of course, it must be recognized by social scientists

773
00:36:59.600 --> 00:37:04.380
<v Speaker 4>that when we choose, however freely,

774
00:37:04.640 --> 00:37:10.180
<v Speaker 4>we always choose on the basis of beliefs and of designs

775
00:37:10.180 --> 00:37:12.840
<v Speaker 4>which are not themselves chosen,

776
00:37:13.200 --> 00:37:19.500
<v Speaker 4>some of which may be part of our genetically determined instincts,

777
00:37:19.500 --> 00:37:24.240
<v Speaker 4>some of which may be explainable through other processes,

778
00:37:24.540 --> 00:37:28.860
<v Speaker 4>but only very few of which can be said to be chosen.

779
00:37:29.020 --> 00:37:31.860
<v Speaker 4>One doesn't choose what to believe,

780
00:37:32.940 --> 00:37:37.060
<v Speaker 4>and one doesn't choose what to desire,

781
00:37:37.260 --> 00:37:41.060
<v Speaker 4>even though we can adopt courses of action

782
00:37:41.060 --> 00:37:45.820
<v Speaker 4>that will lead to changes in our beliefs and changes in our designs.

783
00:37:46.100 --> 00:37:48.780
<v Speaker 4>So the first important qualification,

784
00:37:49.500 --> 00:37:55.280
<v Speaker 4>is that any science based on this assumption of freedom, free choice,

785
00:37:55.520 --> 00:37:58.800
<v Speaker 4>must admit that free choice always operates

786
00:37:59.500 --> 00:38:04.080
<v Speaker 4>on the background of unchosen components, beliefs, designs.

787
00:38:05.620 --> 00:38:09.020
<v Speaker 4>Secondly, and this festival of ideas,

788
00:38:09.100 --> 00:38:14.420
<v Speaker 4>this will be the last thing I would like to throw in as food for thought,

789
00:38:15.840 --> 00:38:18.500
<v Speaker 4>secondly, it is, of course,

790
00:38:18.500 --> 00:38:21.980
<v Speaker 4>also important to realize that rational choice,

791
00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:26.280
<v Speaker 4>as briefly characterized earlier,

792
00:38:26.660 --> 00:38:29.100
<v Speaker 4>so utility maximizing behavior,

793
00:38:30.240 --> 00:38:34.400
<v Speaker 4>is, of course, constantly interfered with,

794
00:38:34.540 --> 00:38:39.020
<v Speaker 4>constantly interacts with things,

795
00:38:39.300 --> 00:38:41.140
<v Speaker 4>with a type of behavior,

796
00:38:41.320 --> 00:38:43.920
<v Speaker 4>which is irreducible to rational choice.

797
00:38:44.160 --> 00:38:45.540
<v Speaker 4>Call it emotions.

798
00:38:46.500 --> 00:38:48.480
<v Speaker 4>And let me just give you

799
00:38:48.500 --> 00:38:50.180
<v Speaker 4>an interesting example

800
00:38:50.180 --> 00:38:55.300
<v Speaker 4>in which emotions play an important role

801
00:38:55.300 --> 00:38:58.780
<v Speaker 4>in the explanation of economic phenomena.

802
00:39:01.120 --> 00:39:05.800
<v Speaker 4>One question that economists have been asking repeatedly is,

803
00:39:06.500 --> 00:39:11.640
<v Speaker 4>how can there be persistent involuntary unemployment?

804
00:39:13.100 --> 00:39:15.980
<v Speaker 4>How is it, in other words,

805
00:39:15.980 --> 00:39:17.460
<v Speaker 4>that at a given wage,

806
00:39:17.460 --> 00:39:23.380
<v Speaker 4>there can be persistently more people wanting to work

807
00:39:23.380 --> 00:39:26.340
<v Speaker 4>than people being hired?

808
00:39:27.340 --> 00:39:29.840
<v Speaker 4>The standard economic view,

809
00:39:30.060 --> 00:39:35.220
<v Speaker 4>the standard microeconomic theory,

810
00:39:35.360 --> 00:39:38.280
<v Speaker 4>will say that this sort of situation cannot persist,

811
00:39:38.540 --> 00:39:42.260
<v Speaker 4>because if at that level of wages

812
00:39:42.260 --> 00:39:45.580
<v Speaker 4>there are more people wanting to work than people being hired,

813
00:39:45.580 --> 00:39:47.580
<v Speaker 4>the wage will go down.

814
00:39:47.900 --> 00:39:50.080
<v Speaker 4>As a result of the wage going down,

815
00:39:50.280 --> 00:39:54.160
<v Speaker 4>there will be more employers wanting to hire workers,

816
00:39:54.360 --> 00:39:56.800
<v Speaker 4>the employers will want to hire more workers,

817
00:39:56.940 --> 00:39:59.780
<v Speaker 4>and there will be less workers wanting to work.

818
00:40:00.100 --> 00:40:02.780
<v Speaker 4>And the process will go on up to the point

819
00:40:02.780 --> 00:40:04.400
<v Speaker 4>where the equilibrium,

820
00:40:04.580 --> 00:40:06.360
<v Speaker 4>so-called equilibrium is reached,

821
00:40:06.560 --> 00:40:08.080
<v Speaker 4>market clearing equilibrium,

822
00:40:08.220 --> 00:40:10.540
<v Speaker 4>in the sense that at that level,

823
00:40:10.660 --> 00:40:11.780
<v Speaker 4>at that wage level,

824
00:40:11.900 --> 00:40:13.920
<v Speaker 4>the number of people wanting to work will be,

825
00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:15.560
<v Speaker 4>all the people wanting to work,

826
00:40:15.560 --> 00:40:16.360
<v Speaker 4>will have a job.

827
00:40:18.240 --> 00:40:19.800
<v Speaker 4>So there is a paradox,

828
00:40:20.040 --> 00:40:21.820
<v Speaker 4>there is a puzzle for economists,

829
00:40:21.920 --> 00:40:24.700
<v Speaker 4>how can there be persistent involuntary unemployment?

830
00:40:25.700 --> 00:40:29.420
<v Speaker 4>And here is one interesting explanation.

831
00:40:31.640 --> 00:40:36.100
<v Speaker 4>In fact, it looks in the employer's interest

832
00:40:36.100 --> 00:40:39.660
<v Speaker 4>to pay as little to the workers

833
00:40:39.660 --> 00:40:41.220
<v Speaker 4>as they can get away with,

834
00:40:42.440 --> 00:40:45.540
<v Speaker 4>because high wages mean less profit.

835
00:40:45.560 --> 00:40:48.560
<v Speaker 4>But this ignores the fact

836
00:40:49.140 --> 00:40:51.280
<v Speaker 4>that how productive people are

837
00:40:51.820 --> 00:40:54.440
<v Speaker 4>will be affected by the level of their wage.

838
00:40:55.300 --> 00:40:58.360
<v Speaker 4>This may be for a number of reasons.

839
00:40:58.420 --> 00:41:00.540
<v Speaker 4>For example, in less developed countries,

840
00:41:00.600 --> 00:41:03.200
<v Speaker 4>it may be because if people have a lower wage,

841
00:41:03.400 --> 00:41:06.060
<v Speaker 4>they'll be less healthy.

842
00:41:06.260 --> 00:41:09.640
<v Speaker 4>They'll be more often sick,

843
00:41:09.700 --> 00:41:10.420
<v Speaker 4>they won't eat enough.

844
00:41:11.960 --> 00:41:13.900
<v Speaker 4>There's the Malthusian variant,

845
00:41:14.080 --> 00:41:15.180
<v Speaker 4>if you want, of that explanation.

846
00:41:15.560 --> 00:41:17.760
<v Speaker 4>Or, an explanation often developed,

847
00:41:17.860 --> 00:41:19.140
<v Speaker 4>for example, by Joe Stiglitz,

848
00:41:19.300 --> 00:41:20.720
<v Speaker 4>in some of his models,

849
00:41:20.780 --> 00:41:23.580
<v Speaker 4>is that, in fact,

850
00:41:23.580 --> 00:41:25.960
<v Speaker 4>the higher you pay the workers,

851
00:41:26.080 --> 00:41:28.080
<v Speaker 4>above what you could get away with,

852
00:41:28.360 --> 00:41:30.880
<v Speaker 4>the more the workers will fear,

853
00:41:31.020 --> 00:41:33.260
<v Speaker 4>will be afraid of being sacked.

854
00:41:33.420 --> 00:41:36.680
<v Speaker 4>And therefore, they'll be more conscientious,

855
00:41:36.760 --> 00:41:37.720
<v Speaker 4>they'll be more committed.

856
00:41:38.240 --> 00:41:41.320
<v Speaker 4>There's a sort of Hobbesian version of that argument.

857
00:41:41.540 --> 00:41:42.900
<v Speaker 4>And there is a third version,

858
00:41:43.560 --> 00:41:45.140
<v Speaker 4>which can be explained very simply,

859
00:41:45.140 --> 00:41:47.400
<v Speaker 4>and which is the one I want you to ponder about.

860
00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:50.520
<v Speaker 4>It has been offered by George Akerlof,

861
00:41:50.620 --> 00:41:52.000
<v Speaker 4>who got the Nobel Prize in Economics

862
00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:53.540
<v Speaker 4>at the same time as Joe Stiglitz,

863
00:41:53.720 --> 00:41:54.700
<v Speaker 4>and that says,

864
00:41:54.880 --> 00:41:57.320
<v Speaker 4>no, there is yet another mechanism at work.

865
00:41:57.680 --> 00:42:00.420
<v Speaker 4>In fact, if an employer pays workers

866
00:42:01.200 --> 00:42:03.600
<v Speaker 4>more than what they could get away with,

867
00:42:03.860 --> 00:42:08.760
<v Speaker 4>the workers will feel well treated by the employer.

868
00:42:09.160 --> 00:42:10.820
<v Speaker 4>In fact, Akerlof says,

869
00:42:11.080 --> 00:42:12.440
<v Speaker 4>and that's the motion,

870
00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:14.480
<v Speaker 4>referring to the

871
00:42:15.140 --> 00:42:16.380
<v Speaker 4>anthropologist Marcel Mauss,

872
00:42:16.420 --> 00:42:18.440
<v Speaker 4>the Maussian version of the explanation,

873
00:42:18.820 --> 00:42:21.940
<v Speaker 4>in fact, employment is a gift exchange.

874
00:42:22.260 --> 00:42:24.800
<v Speaker 4>The employer gives more than

875
00:42:24.800 --> 00:42:26.880
<v Speaker 4>what is needed to attract workers,

876
00:42:27.300 --> 00:42:29.020
<v Speaker 4>and the workers feel grateful.

877
00:42:29.160 --> 00:42:31.740
<v Speaker 4>They identify with the firms.

878
00:42:31.780 --> 00:42:33.160
<v Speaker 4>They want to give something in exchange,

879
00:42:33.340 --> 00:42:35.340
<v Speaker 4>and therefore they are more conscientious,

880
00:42:35.420 --> 00:42:36.240
<v Speaker 4>they are more committed,

881
00:42:37.140 --> 00:42:38.240
<v Speaker 4>they provide more effort

882
00:42:38.240 --> 00:42:42.200
<v Speaker 4>than what can be controlled by the employer.

883
00:42:43.240 --> 00:42:44.520
<v Speaker 4>And so,

884
00:42:44.520 --> 00:42:46.300
<v Speaker 4>this is an emotion.

885
00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:48.580
<v Speaker 4>It's not rational behaviour on the part of the worker.

886
00:42:48.800 --> 00:42:49.720
<v Speaker 4>They would be hired,

887
00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:50.800
<v Speaker 4>they wouldn't be sacked,

888
00:42:51.520 --> 00:42:54.920
<v Speaker 4>but emotions play a role in their behaviour.

889
00:42:56.320 --> 00:42:58.200
<v Speaker 4>And precisely because then

890
00:42:58.200 --> 00:43:00.280
<v Speaker 4>it is in the interest of the employer

891
00:43:00.280 --> 00:43:02.480
<v Speaker 4>to pay more than the market clearing wage,

892
00:43:02.680 --> 00:43:04.680
<v Speaker 4>the wages don't adjust downward.

893
00:43:04.980 --> 00:43:07.720
<v Speaker 4>They remain higher than the market clearing wage,

894
00:43:07.900 --> 00:43:10.840
<v Speaker 4>and there can be persistent unemployment,

895
00:43:11.380 --> 00:43:13.440
<v Speaker 4>because the wage doesn't go down

896
00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:15.820
<v Speaker 4>up to the level where all the people wanting to work

897
00:43:15.820 --> 00:43:17.540
<v Speaker 4>actually find work.

898
00:43:18.060 --> 00:43:20.860
<v Speaker 4>So this indicates how emotions play a role,

899
00:43:21.020 --> 00:43:23.720
<v Speaker 4>even in that hard science of economics,

900
00:43:23.920 --> 00:43:25.440
<v Speaker 4>to explain some phenomena.

901
00:43:25.620 --> 00:43:29.160
<v Speaker 4>But it also shows why even positive emotions,

902
00:43:29.320 --> 00:43:30.820
<v Speaker 4>like gratitude,

903
00:43:31.120 --> 00:43:33.500
<v Speaker 4>can have negative consequences,

904
00:43:33.680 --> 00:43:35.660
<v Speaker 4>namely persistent unemployment,

905
00:43:36.040 --> 00:43:38.940
<v Speaker 4>persistent exclusion for others.

906
00:43:39.760 --> 00:43:41.440
<v Speaker 4>Just to conclude,

907
00:43:41.660 --> 00:43:43.420
<v Speaker 4>what I wanted to illustrate here,

908
00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:44.180
<v Speaker 4>and to illustrate in this way,

909
00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:45.480
<v Speaker 4>is,

910
00:43:46.360 --> 00:43:49.580
<v Speaker 4>through this reflection on the most materialistic

911
00:43:49.580 --> 00:43:51.140
<v Speaker 4>of the social sciences,

912
00:43:51.660 --> 00:43:54.660
<v Speaker 4>is first that the mind being matter

913
00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:57.160
<v Speaker 4>does not matter for the sake

914
00:43:57.160 --> 00:44:00.100
<v Speaker 4>of preserving a place for freedom.

915
00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:01.380
<v Speaker 4>And secondly,

916
00:44:01.500 --> 00:44:03.220
<v Speaker 4>that what does matter

917
00:44:03.220 --> 00:44:06.680
<v Speaker 4>is to have a richer picture of the mind

918
00:44:07.440 --> 00:44:09.780
<v Speaker 4>than rational economic man,

919
00:44:09.960 --> 00:44:11.900
<v Speaker 4>even in order to explain

920
00:44:11.900 --> 00:44:13.460
<v Speaker 4>economic phenomena.

921
00:44:26.540 --> 00:44:28.940
<v Speaker 5>Well, I'm just going to draw your attention

922
00:44:28.940 --> 00:44:29.940
<v Speaker 5>to a couple of things,

923
00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:33.660
<v Speaker 5>probably quite obvious actually.

924
00:44:34.260 --> 00:44:37.420
<v Speaker 5>One of them is that whatever has been said

925
00:44:37.420 --> 00:44:38.540
<v Speaker 5>so far on this panel,

926
00:44:38.680 --> 00:44:41.200
<v Speaker 5>every single one of you will have received it differently.

927
00:44:41.200 --> 00:44:43.660
<v Speaker 5>Because you will have taken it in

928
00:44:43.660 --> 00:44:44.720
<v Speaker 5>to a different consciousness.

929
00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:48.500
<v Speaker 5>Each one of you hears a different thing.

930
00:44:48.600 --> 00:44:49.680
<v Speaker 5>No matter what I say,

931
00:44:49.840 --> 00:44:53.060
<v Speaker 5>you will hear it according to your mind.

932
00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:55.900
<v Speaker 5>I also couldn't help but notice,

933
00:44:56.280 --> 00:44:58.420
<v Speaker 5>and this is the glory of being the fourth speaker,

934
00:44:59.220 --> 00:45:00.800
<v Speaker 5>which is a nice position to be,

935
00:45:02.120 --> 00:45:04.620
<v Speaker 5>how differently each of the minds

936
00:45:04.620 --> 00:45:06.480
<v Speaker 5>that's in front of you talking about minds,

937
00:45:06.600 --> 00:45:08.340
<v Speaker 5>not only talks about mind,

938
00:45:08.480 --> 00:45:10.840
<v Speaker 5>but prepares to talk about mind.

939
00:45:10.840 --> 00:45:13.800
<v Speaker 5>I hope this isn't too personal,

940
00:45:13.880 --> 00:45:16.040
<v Speaker 5>but it's pertinent to this issue of mind.

941
00:45:16.640 --> 00:45:17.760
<v Speaker 5>Max, for example,

942
00:45:18.860 --> 00:45:20.560
<v Speaker 5>has very neat handwriting,

943
00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:24.300
<v Speaker 5>and has written out

944
00:45:24.840 --> 00:45:26.760
<v Speaker 5>his very thoughtful exposition.

945
00:45:28.780 --> 00:45:30.820
<v Speaker 5>Joanna had typed hers.

946
00:45:30.900 --> 00:45:33.240
<v Speaker 5>I assume, therefore, she might have prepared it

947
00:45:33.240 --> 00:45:34.680
<v Speaker 5>a couple of days in advance,

948
00:45:35.020 --> 00:45:37.560
<v Speaker 5>unless, of course, she takes a printer with her

949
00:45:37.560 --> 00:45:39.080
<v Speaker 5>to her hotel room.

950
00:45:41.060 --> 00:45:43.600
<v Speaker 5>Philippe, who I could observe very closely,

951
00:45:43.820 --> 00:45:45.200
<v Speaker 5>is a bit like me.

952
00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:46.920
<v Speaker 5>He's a man who likes to fly

953
00:45:47.560 --> 00:45:48.860
<v Speaker 5>by the seat of his pants.

954
00:45:49.840 --> 00:45:52.520
<v Speaker 5>He has very, very small handwriting.

955
00:45:53.660 --> 00:45:55.620
<v Speaker 5>He does change his mind.

956
00:45:55.720 --> 00:45:57.280
<v Speaker 5>He crosses things out,

957
00:45:57.400 --> 00:46:00.360
<v Speaker 5>and then moves them around the page.

958
00:46:01.180 --> 00:46:03.120
<v Speaker 5>But he's willing to trust something,

959
00:46:03.180 --> 00:46:04.720
<v Speaker 5>which is perhaps a function of mind,

960
00:46:04.820 --> 00:46:06.300
<v Speaker 5>called spontaneity.

961
00:46:07.240 --> 00:46:10.600
<v Speaker 5>Now, there's no moral judgment here.

962
00:46:10.840 --> 00:46:13.840
<v Speaker 5>There are just different ways,

963
00:46:14.700 --> 00:46:15.560
<v Speaker 5>different aptitudes,

964
00:46:15.640 --> 00:46:16.360
<v Speaker 5>different interests,

965
00:46:16.580 --> 00:46:17.420
<v Speaker 5>different possibilities,

966
00:46:17.680 --> 00:46:19.520
<v Speaker 5>different means, perhaps even,

967
00:46:19.680 --> 00:46:21.300
<v Speaker 5>of dealing with anxiety,

968
00:46:22.020 --> 00:46:24.240
<v Speaker 5>which is itself, of course, a product of mind.

969
00:46:26.400 --> 00:46:28.100
<v Speaker 5>Now, I'm always very curious

970
00:46:28.100 --> 00:46:29.900
<v Speaker 5>to know whether the mind lives in the brain

971
00:46:29.900 --> 00:46:31.200
<v Speaker 5>or the brain lives in the mind.

972
00:46:32.160 --> 00:46:33.040
<v Speaker 5>I'm also...

973
00:46:33.040 --> 00:46:34.920
<v Speaker 5>Well, and of course, that's analogous

974
00:46:34.920 --> 00:46:37.260
<v Speaker 5>with the whole question of whether the body lives in the soul

975
00:46:37.260 --> 00:46:38.500
<v Speaker 5>or the soul lives in the body,

976
00:46:39.780 --> 00:46:40.820
<v Speaker 5>which is not a question.

977
00:46:40.820 --> 00:46:41.960
<v Speaker 5>It's not a trivial question, actually,

978
00:46:43.240 --> 00:46:45.500
<v Speaker 5>because it also allows us to think about

979
00:46:45.500 --> 00:46:46.940
<v Speaker 5>how far mind extends.

980
00:46:48.900 --> 00:46:52.160
<v Speaker 5>You know, is my mind contained in my skull?

981
00:46:52.620 --> 00:46:54.080
<v Speaker 5>Well, clearly it isn't.

982
00:46:54.340 --> 00:46:55.680
<v Speaker 5>I can affect you,

983
00:46:55.840 --> 00:46:57.240
<v Speaker 5>as I talked about this morning,

984
00:46:57.280 --> 00:46:57.960
<v Speaker 5>with my thoughts.

985
00:46:58.440 --> 00:47:00.280
<v Speaker 5>I can affect you with my thoughts

986
00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:01.600
<v Speaker 5>out of time and space.

987
00:47:02.760 --> 00:47:04.780
<v Speaker 5>So, clearly, mind is not something

988
00:47:04.780 --> 00:47:08.320
<v Speaker 5>that's just sort of squashed into this little spot here.

989
00:47:08.740 --> 00:47:09.480
<v Speaker 5>Ha-ha.

990
00:47:10.100 --> 00:47:10.720
<v Speaker 5>You know,

991
00:47:10.820 --> 00:47:12.340
<v Speaker 5>when I think, what am I thinking with?

992
00:47:12.680 --> 00:47:15.420
<v Speaker 5>Well, clearly there are cognitive processes going on,

993
00:47:15.520 --> 00:47:18.820
<v Speaker 5>and I'm very interested in those cognitive processes,

994
00:47:19.020 --> 00:47:20.520
<v Speaker 5>and I'm deeply interested

995
00:47:20.520 --> 00:47:22.760
<v Speaker 5>in how we can affect those cognitive processes,

996
00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:24.480
<v Speaker 5>especially for the better.

997
00:47:25.120 --> 00:47:27.040
<v Speaker 5>You know, we don't want to be slaves

998
00:47:27.040 --> 00:47:28.400
<v Speaker 5>to our cognitive processes.

999
00:47:28.720 --> 00:47:30.340
<v Speaker 5>We want to understand them

1000
00:47:30.340 --> 00:47:32.500
<v Speaker 5>so that we're much freer to use them

1001
00:47:32.500 --> 00:47:33.840
<v Speaker 5>for our own benefit

1002
00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:35.900
<v Speaker 5>and also for the benefit of other people.

1003
00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:39.200
<v Speaker 5>But we are not simply our cognitive processes.

1004
00:47:40.820 --> 00:47:42.160
<v Speaker 5>You know, one of the great things

1005
00:47:42.160 --> 00:47:43.940
<v Speaker 5>about this moment in human history

1006
00:47:43.940 --> 00:47:47.340
<v Speaker 5>is that we are looking at mind

1007
00:47:48.500 --> 00:47:49.940
<v Speaker 5>from all perspectives.

1008
00:47:50.140 --> 00:47:52.140
<v Speaker 5>You know, if we could put mind

1009
00:47:52.140 --> 00:47:53.520
<v Speaker 5>into a sort of golden cage

1010
00:47:53.520 --> 00:47:55.160
<v Speaker 5>in the middle of this room for a moment

1011
00:47:55.160 --> 00:47:57.000
<v Speaker 5>and we could all walk around it

1012
00:47:57.000 --> 00:47:59.420
<v Speaker 5>while trumpets played and angels sang,

1013
00:48:00.720 --> 00:48:03.560
<v Speaker 5>we would see that we can learn something of it

1014
00:48:03.560 --> 00:48:05.140
<v Speaker 5>from all the different traditions.

1015
00:48:05.480 --> 00:48:06.760
<v Speaker 5>I mean, what, for example,

1016
00:48:06.760 --> 00:48:09.140
<v Speaker 5>can we learn about mind from the East?

1017
00:48:09.580 --> 00:48:10.800
<v Speaker 5>Well, almost everything.

1018
00:48:10.800 --> 00:48:12.120
<v Speaker 5>In a sense.

1019
00:48:12.500 --> 00:48:15.040
<v Speaker 5>And what we can especially learn from mind,

1020
00:48:15.140 --> 00:48:16.720
<v Speaker 5>about mind from the East,

1021
00:48:17.500 --> 00:48:19.620
<v Speaker 5>is that our cognitive function

1022
00:48:19.620 --> 00:48:22.980
<v Speaker 5>is to the mind as a grain of sand

1023
00:48:22.980 --> 00:48:24.200
<v Speaker 5>is to a beach.

1024
00:48:26.340 --> 00:48:28.600
<v Speaker 5>We are very attached, of course,

1025
00:48:28.740 --> 00:48:30.380
<v Speaker 5>to our cognitive functions

1026
00:48:30.380 --> 00:48:32.140
<v Speaker 5>even when they're not doing as much good.

1027
00:48:35.100 --> 00:48:39.320
<v Speaker 5>But, you know, there is tremendous respite

1028
00:48:39.320 --> 00:48:43.220
<v Speaker 5>and there's tremendous relief

1029
00:48:44.380 --> 00:48:46.300
<v Speaker 5>and there's tremendous insight

1030
00:48:46.300 --> 00:48:48.340
<v Speaker 5>and joy and wisdom

1031
00:48:48.340 --> 00:48:50.460
<v Speaker 5>to be gained from setting aside

1032
00:48:50.460 --> 00:48:52.520
<v Speaker 5>the cognitive functions of the mind

1033
00:48:52.520 --> 00:48:56.280
<v Speaker 5>in order to experience the greater mind,

1034
00:48:56.520 --> 00:48:58.580
<v Speaker 5>which is, of course, what meditation allows.

1035
00:48:58.960 --> 00:49:01.720
<v Speaker 5>But not only meditation in the formal sense,

1036
00:49:01.860 --> 00:49:03.560
<v Speaker 5>although I recommend that to you,

1037
00:49:03.700 --> 00:49:06.460
<v Speaker 5>not least to learn a little bit

1038
00:49:06.460 --> 00:49:07.620
<v Speaker 5>about what the mind is,

1039
00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:09.300
<v Speaker 5>but also meditation in the spiritual sense,

1040
00:49:09.320 --> 00:49:10.140
<v Speaker 5>meditation in other senses,

1041
00:49:10.280 --> 00:49:10.800
<v Speaker 5>for example,

1042
00:49:10.820 --> 00:49:12.940
<v Speaker 5>when we allow ourselves to be lost

1043
00:49:12.940 --> 00:49:14.700
<v Speaker 5>in a piece of most beautiful music.

1044
00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:18.420
<v Speaker 5>You know, we can have an experience in that moment

1045
00:49:18.420 --> 00:49:20.520
<v Speaker 5>that is both intensely personal

1046
00:49:20.520 --> 00:49:22.480
<v Speaker 5>and scarcely personal at all.

1047
00:49:23.400 --> 00:49:25.600
<v Speaker 5>An incredibly precious thing

1048
00:49:25.600 --> 00:49:26.840
<v Speaker 5>that's available to us

1049
00:49:26.840 --> 00:49:29.800
<v Speaker 5>as long as we make ourselves available to it.

1050
00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:32.400
<v Speaker 5>So questions of will also come in.

1051
00:49:32.820 --> 00:49:35.000
<v Speaker 5>Will is also a function of mind

1052
00:49:35.000 --> 00:49:37.800
<v Speaker 5>and a very, very precious function of mind.

1053
00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:40.480
<v Speaker 5>I think that Max is going to be talking about free will

1054
00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:41.340
<v Speaker 5>in another context.

1055
00:49:41.540 --> 00:49:42.760
<v Speaker 5>I hope so,

1056
00:49:42.820 --> 00:49:44.760
<v Speaker 5>because I think it's enormously interesting.

1057
00:49:45.280 --> 00:49:47.920
<v Speaker 5>And Saint Augustine was just one of many, many teachers

1058
00:49:47.920 --> 00:49:50.000
<v Speaker 5>who taught that when we look at mind,

1059
00:49:50.120 --> 00:49:51.480
<v Speaker 5>we're thinking about intelligence,

1060
00:49:52.160 --> 00:49:54.800
<v Speaker 5>we're thinking about consciousness and conscience.

1061
00:49:55.940 --> 00:49:58.880
<v Speaker 5>You know, again, an amazingly precious gift.

1062
00:50:00.240 --> 00:50:01.840
<v Speaker 5>And we're thinking about will,

1063
00:50:02.500 --> 00:50:03.940
<v Speaker 5>what we do with it all.

1064
00:50:04.460 --> 00:50:06.540
<v Speaker 5>You know, the Buddhists talk about mind

1065
00:50:06.540 --> 00:50:07.780
<v Speaker 5>in the sense of, you know,

1066
00:50:07.780 --> 00:50:08.460
<v Speaker 5>the sense of bringing it awake,

1067
00:50:08.840 --> 00:50:11.260
<v Speaker 5>taking the opportunities to wake up.

1068
00:50:12.920 --> 00:50:14.060
<v Speaker 5>What does that mean?

1069
00:50:14.600 --> 00:50:16.120
<v Speaker 5>It means to notice.

1070
00:50:16.440 --> 00:50:19.500
<v Speaker 5>It means to be present in the present moment.

1071
00:50:19.780 --> 00:50:21.460
<v Speaker 5>It means to be able to observe.

1072
00:50:22.340 --> 00:50:25.380
<v Speaker 5>You know, you are listening to me through your ears,

1073
00:50:25.480 --> 00:50:30.280
<v Speaker 5>but you're also absorbing or resisting absorbing,

1074
00:50:30.600 --> 00:50:31.840
<v Speaker 5>that would be fine too,

1075
00:50:32.080 --> 00:50:34.280
<v Speaker 5>what I have to say, through all of your senses.

1076
00:50:34.920 --> 00:50:36.520
<v Speaker 5>You know, I don't reach you

1077
00:50:36.520 --> 00:50:39.820
<v Speaker 5>just through an exchange of mind power,

1078
00:50:40.060 --> 00:50:41.820
<v Speaker 5>as powerful as that is.

1079
00:50:42.040 --> 00:50:45.380
<v Speaker 5>You know, there's something also about my smell,

1080
00:50:45.580 --> 00:50:46.960
<v Speaker 5>what I remind you of.

1081
00:50:47.240 --> 00:50:52.980
<v Speaker 5>You know, all sorts of things come profoundly into play here.

1082
00:50:53.540 --> 00:50:55.840
<v Speaker 5>So when we talk about waking up,

1083
00:50:55.920 --> 00:51:00.020
<v Speaker 5>we talk about waking up not only to what causes us suffering,

1084
00:51:00.080 --> 00:51:00.840
<v Speaker 5>brings us joy,

1085
00:51:01.120 --> 00:51:03.860
<v Speaker 5>but also to the effect that we're having on other people.

1086
00:51:04.100 --> 00:51:05.520
<v Speaker 5>What does that...

1087
00:51:05.520 --> 00:51:07.740
<v Speaker 5>What gives our mind, for example, food for thought?

1088
00:51:08.580 --> 00:51:12.760
<v Speaker 5>That was a beautiful expression that somebody has already used.

1089
00:51:12.980 --> 00:51:14.560
<v Speaker 5>What feeds our minds?

1090
00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:19.780
<v Speaker 5>You know, why do we get up from an evening of second-rate TV?

1091
00:51:19.980 --> 00:51:22.460
<v Speaker 5>Because sometimes we see something on TV that's first-rate.

1092
00:51:22.600 --> 00:51:25.360
<v Speaker 5>But if we get up from an evening of second-rate TV,

1093
00:51:25.580 --> 00:51:26.820
<v Speaker 5>we feel tired.

1094
00:51:27.180 --> 00:51:31.120
<v Speaker 5>You know, our mind is telling us something important here,

1095
00:51:31.200 --> 00:51:33.920
<v Speaker 5>that we have actually starved it of an opportunity,

1096
00:51:34.180 --> 00:51:35.500
<v Speaker 5>not always to be able to wake up,

1097
00:51:35.520 --> 00:51:36.200
<v Speaker 5>but to be knowing things,

1098
00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:38.660
<v Speaker 5>because minds also need rest.

1099
00:51:40.520 --> 00:51:44.120
<v Speaker 5>But sometimes they need nourishment of the finest kind.

1100
00:51:45.880 --> 00:51:48.620
<v Speaker 5>Now, in this preparation for today,

1101
00:51:49.880 --> 00:51:51.100
<v Speaker 5>we were asked,

1102
00:51:51.340 --> 00:51:54.640
<v Speaker 5>what can science tell us about the way the human mind works?

1103
00:51:55.380 --> 00:51:59.820
<v Speaker 5>Well, I would say that science can tell us some absolutely fascinating things,

1104
00:52:00.140 --> 00:52:03.120
<v Speaker 5>but so far at least, science is very limited also.

1105
00:52:03.120 --> 00:52:05.580
<v Speaker 5>Not in what it can tell us only,

1106
00:52:05.680 --> 00:52:07.580
<v Speaker 5>but even in what it pays attention to,

1107
00:52:07.780 --> 00:52:09.520
<v Speaker 5>what it takes seriously,

1108
00:52:10.660 --> 00:52:12.400
<v Speaker 5>what it's open to,

1109
00:52:12.560 --> 00:52:14.260
<v Speaker 5>in the deepest sense of that.

1110
00:52:14.420 --> 00:52:17.080
<v Speaker 5>It can't discover what it's not also looking for,

1111
00:52:17.180 --> 00:52:18.320
<v Speaker 5>what it's not excited by,

1112
00:52:18.500 --> 00:52:20.060
<v Speaker 5>what it's not curious about.

1113
00:52:21.280 --> 00:52:23.920
<v Speaker 5>You know, within the discipline of psychology,

1114
00:52:24.980 --> 00:52:28.600
<v Speaker 5>just as within the disciplines of psychoanalysis and psychotherapy,

1115
00:52:28.820 --> 00:52:30.460
<v Speaker 5>which is where I come from,

1116
00:52:30.660 --> 00:52:33.100
<v Speaker 5>there is a lot of...

1117
00:52:33.120 --> 00:52:34.400
<v Speaker 5>a lot of closed-mindedness.

1118
00:52:35.520 --> 00:52:38.860
<v Speaker 5>You know, psychology may, for example, talk to philosophy and does,

1119
00:52:39.200 --> 00:52:43.400
<v Speaker 5>but psychology doesn't talk in ways that it could,

1120
00:52:43.500 --> 00:52:46.400
<v Speaker 5>for example, with psychotherapy and psychoanalysis.

1121
00:52:46.820 --> 00:52:49.280
<v Speaker 5>Or it talks about it theoretically,

1122
00:52:50.440 --> 00:52:52.560
<v Speaker 5>rather than looking at it subjectively.

1123
00:52:53.080 --> 00:52:54.400
<v Speaker 5>I mean, when we talk about mind,

1124
00:52:54.500 --> 00:52:58.120
<v Speaker 5>we need to remember that we are exploring mind with our mind.

1125
00:52:58.520 --> 00:53:00.400
<v Speaker 5>It's a very subjective...

1126
00:53:01.020 --> 00:53:02.840
<v Speaker 5>It's a very subjective adventure,

1127
00:53:03.540 --> 00:53:06.440
<v Speaker 5>it can never be an entirely objective adventure.

1128
00:53:06.640 --> 00:53:07.760
<v Speaker 5>How could it possibly be?

1129
00:53:08.020 --> 00:53:10.960
<v Speaker 5>We are exploring mind with our minds.

1130
00:53:11.680 --> 00:53:13.920
<v Speaker 5>And I suppose if I have one criticism,

1131
00:53:14.020 --> 00:53:16.180
<v Speaker 5>and I hope it's regarded as legitimate,

1132
00:53:16.220 --> 00:53:17.880
<v Speaker 5>of the psychology profession,

1133
00:53:18.300 --> 00:53:22.320
<v Speaker 5>it's that the psychologists are not pushed,

1134
00:53:22.620 --> 00:53:24.800
<v Speaker 5>or it's not demanded of psychologists,

1135
00:53:24.960 --> 00:53:28.040
<v Speaker 5>that they explore the contents of their own minds

1136
00:53:28.040 --> 00:53:31.240
<v Speaker 5>before looking with interest at the minds of other people.

1137
00:53:31.460 --> 00:53:32.820
<v Speaker 5>Not in a kind of...

1138
00:53:32.820 --> 00:53:34.040
<v Speaker 5>self-absorbed way,

1139
00:53:34.200 --> 00:53:37.580
<v Speaker 5>but in order to understand also what they're projecting outwards,

1140
00:53:38.380 --> 00:53:39.640
<v Speaker 5>what they're confusing,

1141
00:53:41.940 --> 00:53:45.620
<v Speaker 5>why they're hearing one person very differently

1142
00:53:45.620 --> 00:53:48.380
<v Speaker 5>from the person who's sitting next to them is hearing that.

1143
00:53:50.640 --> 00:53:54.000
<v Speaker 5>I'd like you just to do a little tiny exercise before I finish.

1144
00:53:54.760 --> 00:53:56.560
<v Speaker 5>I'd like you just, in this moment,

1145
00:53:56.720 --> 00:53:59.260
<v Speaker 5>I ask some of you who are here for my earlier session,

1146
00:53:59.400 --> 00:54:02.200
<v Speaker 5>to notice what you were hoping for,

1147
00:54:02.200 --> 00:54:03.520
<v Speaker 5>from that session.

1148
00:54:04.620 --> 00:54:08.860
<v Speaker 5>I'd like you now just to notice your thoughts for a moment.

1149
00:54:09.520 --> 00:54:13.600
<v Speaker 5>I'd like you to observe the most obvious content of your mind,

1150
00:54:13.760 --> 00:54:15.140
<v Speaker 5>which is your thoughts.

1151
00:54:16.140 --> 00:54:17.820
<v Speaker 5>And of course, I'm not having a thought.

1152
00:54:17.980 --> 00:54:19.620
<v Speaker 5>What on earth is she asking me?

1153
00:54:19.800 --> 00:54:21.960
<v Speaker 5>That's a couple of thoughts right there.

1154
00:54:26.660 --> 00:54:28.940
<v Speaker 5>Now, as you look at your thoughts,

1155
00:54:29.060 --> 00:54:31.340
<v Speaker 5>are your eyes rolling back slightly?

1156
00:54:33.100 --> 00:54:34.580
<v Speaker 5>Where do you think your thought is?

1157
00:54:36.800 --> 00:54:38.300
<v Speaker 5>Where are you feeling your thought?

1158
00:54:41.320 --> 00:54:43.420
<v Speaker 5>Where does the thought go when you're not having it?

1159
00:54:49.700 --> 00:54:52.200
<v Speaker 5>What happened to that thought that you had the other day

1160
00:54:52.200 --> 00:54:53.360
<v Speaker 5>that was so valuable,

1161
00:54:53.560 --> 00:54:56.020
<v Speaker 5>that you knew you would never, never forget it,

1162
00:54:56.060 --> 00:54:57.760
<v Speaker 5>so you didn't have to write it down,

1163
00:54:57.900 --> 00:54:59.300
<v Speaker 5>but now it's somewhere else?

1164
00:54:59.780 --> 00:55:00.700
<v Speaker 5>Where is it?

1165
00:55:00.700 --> 00:55:02.660
<v Speaker 5>And could you recover it?

1166
00:55:06.560 --> 00:55:08.620
<v Speaker 5>You know, there's a very profound teaching,

1167
00:55:08.760 --> 00:55:10.260
<v Speaker 5>again from Roberto Asagioli,

1168
00:55:10.340 --> 00:55:12.020
<v Speaker 5>whom I gave you the little story this morning

1169
00:55:12.020 --> 00:55:14.760
<v Speaker 5>about the stonecutters.

1170
00:55:15.400 --> 00:55:18.580
<v Speaker 5>And he's taken this very much from the Eastern wisdom traditions.

1171
00:55:19.300 --> 00:55:20.480
<v Speaker 5>I have thoughts.

1172
00:55:20.980 --> 00:55:22.140
<v Speaker 5>I have thoughts.

1173
00:55:22.740 --> 00:55:23.860
<v Speaker 5>I'm not my thoughts.

1174
00:55:24.720 --> 00:55:27.920
<v Speaker 5>Now, most of us are very identified with our,

1175
00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:29.940
<v Speaker 5>not only with our individual thoughts,

1176
00:55:29.940 --> 00:55:31.500
<v Speaker 5>but even with our patterns of thinking.

1177
00:55:31.920 --> 00:55:34.220
<v Speaker 5>We're so identified with them

1178
00:55:34.220 --> 00:55:35.940
<v Speaker 5>that we think that they are inevitable.

1179
00:55:36.620 --> 00:55:37.520
<v Speaker 5>But they're not.

1180
00:55:38.180 --> 00:55:39.260
<v Speaker 5>So go back.

1181
00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:41.200
<v Speaker 5>Watch your thought.

1182
00:55:42.280 --> 00:55:43.300
<v Speaker 5>Watch your thinking.

1183
00:55:45.040 --> 00:55:49.260
<v Speaker 5>And also watch the tone of the observer.

1184
00:55:49.940 --> 00:55:52.060
<v Speaker 5>So you're taking another step back now.

1185
00:55:52.760 --> 00:55:55.960
<v Speaker 5>You're observing the observer of your thoughts.

1186
00:55:56.420 --> 00:55:57.760
<v Speaker 5>Are you with me up there?

1187
00:55:58.620 --> 00:55:59.180
<v Speaker 5>Good.

1188
00:56:00.320 --> 00:56:03.620
<v Speaker 5>Observe the observer of your thoughts.

1189
00:56:04.480 --> 00:56:06.880
<v Speaker 5>And notice the character of that.

1190
00:56:07.560 --> 00:56:10.980
<v Speaker 5>Whether the character of the observer of your thoughts

1191
00:56:10.980 --> 00:56:12.480
<v Speaker 5>is compassionate,

1192
00:56:14.020 --> 00:56:15.300
<v Speaker 5>or curious,

1193
00:56:16.440 --> 00:56:17.720
<v Speaker 5>or judgmental.

1194
00:56:18.160 --> 00:56:20.540
<v Speaker 5>You may be projecting all your judgment onto me,

1195
00:56:20.580 --> 00:56:21.020
<v Speaker 5>and that's okay.

1196
00:56:21.940 --> 00:56:24.340
<v Speaker 5>But you may be projecting it onto you,

1197
00:56:24.340 --> 00:56:26.120
<v Speaker 5>or just absorbing it yourself.

1198
00:56:26.800 --> 00:56:28.420
<v Speaker 5>But just notice that.

1199
00:56:28.420 --> 00:56:33.820
<v Speaker 5>That there are many steps backwards that you can take

1200
00:56:34.420 --> 00:56:40.760
<v Speaker 5>in order to be somewhat less gripped by a thought.

1201
00:56:41.200 --> 00:56:43.320
<v Speaker 5>And even to observe.

1202
00:56:43.420 --> 00:56:44.800
<v Speaker 5>And here again,

1203
00:56:44.980 --> 00:56:47.040
<v Speaker 5>consciousness comes in,

1204
00:56:47.140 --> 00:56:48.360
<v Speaker 5>and also will,

1205
00:56:48.540 --> 00:56:51.240
<v Speaker 5>which thoughts are really sustaining you.

1206
00:56:55.520 --> 00:56:56.920
<v Speaker 5>Which thoughts

1207
00:56:56.920 --> 00:56:59.360
<v Speaker 5>are not sustaining you.

1208
00:57:00.360 --> 00:57:02.880
<v Speaker 5>Now I'm not saying that you can just get rid of a thought.

1209
00:57:03.000 --> 00:57:04.100
<v Speaker 5>I don't think so.

1210
00:57:04.620 --> 00:57:06.260
<v Speaker 5>But noticing thoughts

1211
00:57:07.520 --> 00:57:09.220
<v Speaker 5>is deeply helpful.

1212
00:57:10.540 --> 00:57:12.680
<v Speaker 5>Noticing that thought is not inevitable,

1213
00:57:12.980 --> 00:57:15.860
<v Speaker 5>and that thought is not all of your mind,

1214
00:57:15.920 --> 00:57:18.960
<v Speaker 5>is also deeply helpful.

1215
00:57:22.500 --> 00:57:25.200
<v Speaker 5>Montaigne, the famous philosopher, said,

1216
00:57:26.540 --> 00:57:29.160
<v Speaker 5>I feel differently before and after lunch.

1217
00:57:30.840 --> 00:57:33.900
<v Speaker 5>Now we also need to notice that we are biological creatures,

1218
00:57:34.080 --> 00:57:37.100
<v Speaker 5>and that what we are thinking is very much changed

1219
00:57:37.100 --> 00:57:38.200
<v Speaker 5>by our physical condition.

1220
00:57:38.500 --> 00:57:41.220
<v Speaker 5>Sometimes we really do need a cup of tea and a good lie down.

1221
00:57:42.280 --> 00:57:44.320
<v Speaker 5>And then our thoughts will change.

1222
00:57:46.360 --> 00:57:49.640
<v Speaker 5>I want to recommend just two books before we finish,

1223
00:57:49.840 --> 00:57:52.220
<v Speaker 5>before I finish and we can get to the discussion.

1224
00:57:53.460 --> 00:57:55.180
<v Speaker 5>One of them is a biological book,

1225
00:57:55.200 --> 00:57:56.520
<v Speaker 5>by a woman called Candice Peart,

1226
00:57:56.720 --> 00:57:59.220
<v Speaker 5>and it's a book called The Molecules of Emotion.

1227
00:57:59.460 --> 00:58:02.060
<v Speaker 5>Now this book fell into my hands in a thrift shop.

1228
00:58:02.280 --> 00:58:04.260
<v Speaker 5>Now I don't go into many thrift shops,

1229
00:58:04.340 --> 00:58:06.920
<v Speaker 5>and I certainly don't go into many thrift shops looking for books.

1230
00:58:07.400 --> 00:58:09.460
<v Speaker 5>So that was a moment of synchronicity.

1231
00:58:09.660 --> 00:58:10.820
<v Speaker 5>What's at work there?

1232
00:58:11.480 --> 00:58:15.040
<v Speaker 5>How is my mind in that moment connecting with the greater mind

1233
00:58:15.040 --> 00:58:17.660
<v Speaker 5>that brought me a most useful book?

1234
00:58:18.300 --> 00:58:20.460
<v Speaker 5>Candice Peart is a neuroscientist

1235
00:58:20.460 --> 00:58:24.560
<v Speaker 5>who in 1972 located the opiate receptor,

1236
00:58:24.560 --> 00:58:29.040
<v Speaker 5>at a time when receptors in the brain could not be located.

1237
00:58:29.520 --> 00:58:32.440
<v Speaker 5>And of course once she had located the opiate receptor,

1238
00:58:32.600 --> 00:58:34.360
<v Speaker 5>in a very short time,

1239
00:58:34.560 --> 00:58:36.640
<v Speaker 5>numbers of other receptors were located,

1240
00:58:36.820 --> 00:58:38.340
<v Speaker 5>not only in the brain,

1241
00:58:38.440 --> 00:58:42.780
<v Speaker 5>but actually also in the stomach and digestive system.

1242
00:58:43.840 --> 00:58:44.900
<v Speaker 5>That's another matter.

1243
00:58:45.800 --> 00:58:48.340
<v Speaker 5>I also want to speak about another book,

1244
00:58:48.360 --> 00:58:50.540
<v Speaker 5>which is by a man called Peter Kramer,

1245
00:58:50.720 --> 00:58:52.160
<v Speaker 5>and it's called Living with Prozac.

1246
00:58:52.560 --> 00:58:54.540
<v Speaker 5>Now he says a very interesting thing,

1247
00:58:54.560 --> 00:58:57.360
<v Speaker 5>and this may be something that Max could take up.

1248
00:59:00.180 --> 00:59:02.120
<v Speaker 5>We talk about the mind,

1249
00:59:02.880 --> 00:59:05.520
<v Speaker 5>and often what we're really talking about

1250
00:59:05.520 --> 00:59:07.880
<v Speaker 5>is the content of what we also call the self.

1251
00:59:08.380 --> 00:59:12.820
<v Speaker 5>So mind in a sense is a crucial expression of self,

1252
00:59:13.180 --> 00:59:15.460
<v Speaker 5>who we are, who we think we are.

1253
00:59:16.360 --> 00:59:18.900
<v Speaker 5>Peter Kramer is both a philosopher and a psychiatrist.

1254
00:59:19.040 --> 00:59:20.120
<v Speaker 5>He's at Brown University.

1255
00:59:20.520 --> 00:59:21.640
<v Speaker 5>And what he discovered,

1256
00:59:21.860 --> 00:59:23.740
<v Speaker 5>and other people have discovered it too,

1257
00:59:23.740 --> 00:59:27.240
<v Speaker 5>but he describes it very, very vividly and very usefully.

1258
00:59:27.760 --> 00:59:29.560
<v Speaker 5>What he discovered was that

1259
00:59:30.360 --> 00:59:32.740
<v Speaker 5>we have a very pin the tail on the donkey

1260
00:59:33.940 --> 00:59:36.460
<v Speaker 5>means of prescribing medications still

1261
00:59:36.460 --> 00:59:39.700
<v Speaker 5>for serious psychiatric illnesses.

1262
00:59:39.980 --> 00:59:44.200
<v Speaker 5>We don't know yet why some medications work so well for some people

1263
00:59:44.200 --> 00:59:46.940
<v Speaker 5>and not at all for others, and so on and so on.

1264
00:59:47.460 --> 00:59:51.260
<v Speaker 5>But what Kramer found was that with those people,

1265
00:59:52.260 --> 00:59:53.100
<v Speaker 5>with that,

1266
00:59:53.100 --> 00:59:55.760
<v Speaker 5>I don't know, small, large, doesn't matter,

1267
00:59:55.820 --> 00:59:59.600
<v Speaker 5>with the people for whom Prozac did work,

1268
00:59:59.840 --> 01:00:02.900
<v Speaker 5>and he wasn't saying that this is a cure all, not at all,

1269
01:00:02.980 --> 01:00:05.800
<v Speaker 5>and he's very much working with analytic psychotherapy

1270
01:00:05.800 --> 01:00:07.220
<v Speaker 5>and so on and so on.

1271
01:00:07.220 --> 01:00:10.280
<v Speaker 5>He's not simply looking at it from a biological point of view.

1272
01:00:10.440 --> 01:00:13.900
<v Speaker 5>But he is saying that where this medication,

1273
01:00:14.180 --> 01:00:16.360
<v Speaker 5>which happened to be Prozac, did work,

1274
01:00:17.100 --> 01:00:18.960
<v Speaker 5>the person would say to him,

1275
01:00:19.080 --> 01:00:20.840
<v Speaker 5>I feel like myself.

1276
01:00:21.620 --> 01:00:22.140
<v Speaker 5>Now,

1277
01:00:22.140 --> 01:00:24.500
<v Speaker 5>the person was exhibiting, say,

1278
01:00:24.680 --> 01:00:26.240
<v Speaker 5>a social ease, for example,

1279
01:00:26.400 --> 01:00:27.840
<v Speaker 5>that they hadn't exhibited before.

1280
01:00:28.700 --> 01:00:32.080
<v Speaker 5>So where had they held this notion of the self?

1281
01:00:33.140 --> 01:00:35.700
<v Speaker 5>They hadn't been that self before,

1282
01:00:35.820 --> 01:00:39.340
<v Speaker 5>and yet there was some way in which

1283
01:00:39.340 --> 01:00:42.100
<v Speaker 5>they had now become themselves.

1284
01:00:42.620 --> 01:00:46.360
<v Speaker 5>And I find that an extraordinarily interesting concept.

1285
01:00:46.660 --> 01:00:50.460
<v Speaker 5>And I'm awfully glad that we've been able to gather our minds together

1286
01:00:50.460 --> 01:00:52.120
<v Speaker 5>to plant this little seed.

1287
01:00:52.140 --> 01:00:53.800
<v Speaker 5>So thank you for your time.

1288
01:01:05.360 --> 01:01:06.280
<v Chair>Thank you.

1289
01:01:06.340 --> 01:01:09.380
<v Chair>I was going to ask each of our panelists

1290
01:01:09.380 --> 01:01:12.420
<v Chair>to comment on something that they found interesting

1291
01:01:12.880 --> 01:01:14.500
<v Chair>that some other panelists have said,

1292
01:01:14.580 --> 01:01:16.580
<v Chair>but we actually don't have a lot of time left.

1293
01:01:16.700 --> 01:01:20.000
<v Chair>So what I'm going to do instead is throw open the...

1294
01:01:20.740 --> 01:01:22.040
<v Chair>I can hardly see you guys.

1295
01:01:22.040 --> 01:01:25.080
<v Chair>I'm going to throw open the panel for discussion.

1296
01:01:26.420 --> 01:01:28.440
<v Chair>But please move to the mic.

1297
01:01:28.720 --> 01:01:31.400
<v Chair>So there's someone right by the mic there

1298
01:01:31.400 --> 01:01:32.700
<v Chair>who would like to ask questions.

1299
01:01:32.760 --> 01:01:33.500
<v Chair>Why don't you ask a question?

1300
01:01:33.980 --> 01:01:34.700
<v Chair>Thank you.

1301
01:01:36.040 --> 01:01:38.500
<v Audience>I'd like to ask a question of Philippe, please.

1302
01:01:38.920 --> 01:01:41.700
<v Audience>And I'm interested in your...

1303
01:01:41.700 --> 01:01:44.220
<v Audience>the economic theory that you put forward

1304
01:01:44.220 --> 01:01:49.240
<v Audience>about the appropriate amount to pay people

1305
01:01:49.240 --> 01:01:51.820
<v Audience>and the psychological factors involved with that.

1306
01:01:51.820 --> 01:01:54.520
<v Audience>And I think it's quite appropriate.

1307
01:01:55.700 --> 01:01:59.880
<v Audience>But then how do you explain the fact that

1308
01:01:59.880 --> 01:02:03.280
<v Audience>in the early part of the 19th century,

1309
01:02:03.460 --> 01:02:07.820
<v Audience>Robert Owen, who established a model working environment

1310
01:02:08.400 --> 01:02:11.280
<v Audience>in New Lanark in the lowlands of Scotland,

1311
01:02:12.500 --> 01:02:15.060
<v Audience>was able to actually demonstrate

1312
01:02:15.060 --> 01:02:17.680
<v Audience>that if you provided better conditions,

1313
01:02:17.720 --> 01:02:21.180
<v Audience>you had children at school until the age of 10

1314
01:02:21.180 --> 01:02:21.800
<v Audience>and not working.

1315
01:02:21.820 --> 01:02:23.640
<v Audience>And if you had...

1316
01:02:23.640 --> 01:02:26.440
<v Audience>people had a reasonable diet and all that sort of thing,

1317
01:02:26.620 --> 01:02:28.360
<v Audience>they certainly produced well,

1318
01:02:28.540 --> 01:02:30.340
<v Audience>they were happy environment and so on.

1319
01:02:30.500 --> 01:02:34.100
<v Audience>And many, many people came from all over the world

1320
01:02:34.100 --> 01:02:35.760
<v Audience>to observe this, manufacturers,

1321
01:02:36.720 --> 01:02:39.360
<v Audience>even members of the aristocracy and so on.

1322
01:02:39.520 --> 01:02:41.120
<v Audience>They came to observe it.

1323
01:02:41.600 --> 01:02:43.980
<v Audience>A few put it into operation.

1324
01:02:44.520 --> 01:02:47.240
<v Audience>Most didn't and said it wouldn't work.

1325
01:02:47.340 --> 01:02:49.900
<v Audience>And that whole system collapsed.

1326
01:02:49.900 --> 01:02:53.880
<v Audience>Now, I'm not saying for one moment that he wasn't right

1327
01:02:53.880 --> 01:02:56.140
<v Audience>or that the theory you're putting forward isn't right,

1328
01:02:56.260 --> 01:03:00.580
<v Audience>but how is it that the observers didn't accept

1329
01:03:00.580 --> 01:03:02.740
<v Audience>what he was saying or demonstrating

1330
01:03:02.740 --> 01:03:07.000
<v Audience>and indeed went on and behaved in the way we know about,

1331
01:03:07.240 --> 01:03:10.460
<v Audience>which is very unsatisfactory situation

1332
01:03:10.460 --> 01:03:13.120
<v Audience>where certainly you pay as little as possible

1333
01:03:13.120 --> 01:03:14.540
<v Audience>because you get the biggest profits.

1334
01:03:17.040 --> 01:03:17.600
<v Speaker 4>Really?

1335
01:03:18.360 --> 01:03:18.920
<v Speaker 4>Well...

1336
01:03:19.900 --> 01:03:23.580
<v Speaker 4>So, of course, I mean, the historical question,

1337
01:03:23.740 --> 01:03:27.900
<v Speaker 4>I'm sure there are other people who could answer that better

1338
01:03:28.440 --> 01:03:31.680
<v Speaker 4>and it's somewhat removed from the focus of our discussion.

1339
01:03:31.920 --> 01:03:34.140
<v Speaker 4>Let me just say this,

1340
01:03:34.400 --> 01:03:37.140
<v Speaker 4>that there are different reasons

1341
01:03:37.140 --> 01:03:39.120
<v Speaker 4>and I only indicated one,

1342
01:03:39.340 --> 01:03:41.860
<v Speaker 4>why it is good,

1343
01:03:42.060 --> 01:03:44.120
<v Speaker 4>even for the sake of profitability,

1344
01:03:44.580 --> 01:03:46.520
<v Speaker 4>even for the sake of efficiency,

1345
01:03:46.860 --> 01:03:48.700
<v Speaker 4>to treat workers well.

1346
01:03:48.700 --> 01:03:51.220
<v Speaker 4>And I only indicated one

1347
01:03:51.220 --> 01:03:53.820
<v Speaker 4>that gives a particular role

1348
01:03:53.820 --> 01:03:55.920
<v Speaker 4>to the emotions that are created

1349
01:03:55.920 --> 01:03:57.820
<v Speaker 4>by this good treatment.

1350
01:03:58.080 --> 01:04:00.340
<v Speaker 4>Of course, there are all sorts of other reasons

1351
01:04:00.340 --> 01:04:01.300
<v Speaker 4>that are perfectly,

1352
01:04:01.460 --> 01:04:02.700
<v Speaker 4>that can be perfectly accommodated

1353
01:04:03.220 --> 01:04:05.080
<v Speaker 4>within a rational choice model,

1354
01:04:05.800 --> 01:04:09.440
<v Speaker 4>where people being better treated,

1355
01:04:09.500 --> 01:04:12.580
<v Speaker 4>their kids being able to go to school, etc.,

1356
01:04:12.580 --> 01:04:13.920
<v Speaker 4>will benefit the firm

1357
01:04:13.920 --> 01:04:17.080
<v Speaker 4>and benefit the community as a whole.

1358
01:04:17.240 --> 01:04:18.680
<v Speaker 4>So, I'm not saying that,

1359
01:04:18.700 --> 01:04:19.760
<v Speaker 4>I'm not at all denying

1360
01:04:19.760 --> 01:04:21.280
<v Speaker 4>that there may be other explanations.

1361
01:04:21.720 --> 01:04:23.120
<v Speaker 4>It doesn't follow, of course,

1362
01:04:23.260 --> 01:04:25.300
<v Speaker 4>that it's always better economically

1363
01:04:25.300 --> 01:04:27.000
<v Speaker 4>to pay workers more,

1364
01:04:27.100 --> 01:04:28.280
<v Speaker 4>to give them better conditions,

1365
01:04:28.400 --> 01:04:31.260
<v Speaker 4>because clearly there is a level from which,

1366
01:04:31.360 --> 01:04:33.540
<v Speaker 4>for the sake of the particular firm concerned,

1367
01:04:33.800 --> 01:04:34.820
<v Speaker 4>it's no longer profitable.

1368
01:04:35.160 --> 01:04:37.400
<v Speaker 4>But my point was only to illustrate

1369
01:04:37.400 --> 01:04:38.620
<v Speaker 4>how it was important,

1370
01:04:38.820 --> 01:04:41.860
<v Speaker 4>even within the framework

1371
01:04:41.860 --> 01:04:44.500
<v Speaker 4>of the attempt to explain economic phenomena,

1372
01:04:44.780 --> 01:04:46.780
<v Speaker 4>to make room for emotions

1373
01:04:46.780 --> 01:04:47.900
<v Speaker 4>and some economists,

1374
01:04:47.900 --> 01:04:48.900
<v Speaker 4>like this Ekolof,

1375
01:04:49.560 --> 01:04:50.900
<v Speaker 4>who does a particularly subtle way,

1376
01:04:51.660 --> 01:04:52.700
<v Speaker 4>in a particularly subtle way,

1377
01:04:52.760 --> 01:04:55.680
<v Speaker 4>integrates history, social anthropology, sociology,

1378
01:04:56.000 --> 01:04:56.900
<v Speaker 4>and then economics,

1379
01:04:57.600 --> 01:04:58.840
<v Speaker 4>within formal models.

1380
01:04:59.140 --> 01:05:00.200
<v Speaker 4>He does that well

1381
01:05:00.200 --> 01:05:02.080
<v Speaker 4>and does the sort of thing that needs doing

1382
01:05:02.080 --> 01:05:05.080
<v Speaker 4>through having this richer picture of the brain,

1383
01:05:05.240 --> 01:05:06.080
<v Speaker 4>of the mind,

1384
01:05:06.140 --> 01:05:07.720
<v Speaker 4>than is usually used by economists.

1385
01:05:08.380 --> 01:05:08.900
<v Chair>Okay.

1386
01:05:08.960 --> 01:05:10.880
<v Chair>I can't see the gallery very well.

1387
01:05:10.980 --> 01:05:12.720
<v Chair>Is there a question from the gallery?

1388
01:05:13.400 --> 01:05:14.280
<v Audience>There's one here.

1389
01:05:15.380 --> 01:05:16.300
<v Audience>There's one here.

1390
01:05:16.900 --> 01:05:17.620
<v Chair>I'm sorry.

1391
01:05:17.700 --> 01:05:17.860
<v Chair>No.

1392
01:05:17.900 --> 01:05:18.280
<v Chair>I can't see.

1393
01:05:18.520 --> 01:05:18.820
<v Chair>Yeah.

1394
01:05:19.040 --> 01:05:19.580
<v Chair>Okay.

1395
01:05:19.700 --> 01:05:20.100
<v Chair>Thank you.

1396
01:05:21.280 --> 01:05:24.740
<v Audience>All four of you spoke of the mind

1397
01:05:24.740 --> 01:05:25.780
<v Audience>as being in the head.

1398
01:05:26.200 --> 01:05:28.300
<v Audience>Well, my mind is all over my body.

1399
01:05:28.640 --> 01:05:31.540
<v Audience>So I think with my stomach,

1400
01:05:31.560 --> 01:05:32.820
<v Audience>I think with other parts.

1401
01:05:33.300 --> 01:05:35.620
<v Audience>And so really,

1402
01:05:35.840 --> 01:05:38.980
<v Audience>is it as concentrated as you make out?

1403
01:05:39.660 --> 01:05:40.620
<v Audience>Aren't we...

1404
01:05:40.620 --> 01:05:43.620
<v Audience>Is it really indeed in our bodies?

1405
01:05:43.660 --> 01:05:45.520
<v Audience>After all, we are biological beings.

1406
01:05:45.600 --> 01:05:47.240
<v Audience>We depend on our living space

1407
01:05:47.240 --> 01:05:48.140
<v Audience>around us.

1408
01:05:48.280 --> 01:05:51.520
<v Audience>So we are really part of the living space as well.

1409
01:05:51.660 --> 01:05:53.860
<v Audience>And isn't there, like gravity,

1410
01:05:53.880 --> 01:05:55.800
<v Audience>a field that drives humanity

1411
01:05:55.800 --> 01:05:59.700
<v Audience>and shapes the assumptions we're making,

1412
01:05:59.820 --> 01:06:01.040
<v Audience>that shapes our feelings,

1413
01:06:01.160 --> 01:06:02.340
<v Audience>that shapes our beings?

1414
01:06:04.500 --> 01:06:06.160
<v Audience>The Indians say,

1415
01:06:06.260 --> 01:06:09.000
<v Audience>yes, okay, life is unreal

1416
01:06:09.000 --> 01:06:11.160
<v Audience>and only your mind is real.

1417
01:06:11.360 --> 01:06:14.360
<v Audience>Now, is it just the world around us that's real

1418
01:06:14.360 --> 01:06:16.620
<v Audience>and we are simply pawns

1419
01:06:16.620 --> 01:06:18.040
<v Audience>that are being manipulated

1420
01:06:18.620 --> 01:06:21.220
<v Audience>by the physical and other forces,

1421
01:06:22.200 --> 01:06:23.240
<v Audience>including emotions?

1422
01:06:23.400 --> 01:06:25.180
<v Audience>And we only react with our emotions

1423
01:06:25.180 --> 01:06:30.660
<v Audience>on the sensations we take in from the world.

1424
01:06:30.940 --> 01:06:33.140
<v Audience>Could one not look at that and say,

1425
01:06:33.200 --> 01:06:36.540
<v Audience>look, humanity is simply a product

1426
01:06:36.540 --> 01:06:38.600
<v Audience>of the world around us.

1427
01:06:38.680 --> 01:06:41.100
<v Audience>We happen to love here from some asteroid

1428
01:06:41.100 --> 01:06:43.340
<v Audience>and we found the niche useful

1429
01:06:43.340 --> 01:06:46.020
<v Audience>and now we're being run by that niche

1430
01:06:46.020 --> 01:06:47.500
<v Audience>and we're being run by the limitations of it.

1431
01:06:47.800 --> 01:06:49.680
<v Audience>Can I ask Max then?

1432
01:06:51.980 --> 01:06:55.220
<v Chair>Can I ask Max if he thinks with his brain?

1433
01:06:55.600 --> 01:06:57.920
<v Chair>Let's just take that aspect of the question, thank you.

1434
01:06:58.060 --> 01:07:01.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, there are people who are quadriplegic

1435
01:07:01.040 --> 01:07:03.200
<v Speaker 2>who can't move any part of their body

1436
01:07:03.200 --> 01:07:05.960
<v Speaker 2>and can't receive sensations from any part of their body.

1437
01:07:06.340 --> 01:07:08.700
<v Speaker 2>So, and their thinking isn't affected.

1438
01:07:09.220 --> 01:07:10.700
<v Speaker 2>As for thinking with my stomach,

1439
01:07:10.780 --> 01:07:13.360
<v Speaker 2>if my stomach was removed because it was ulcerous,

1440
01:07:13.360 --> 01:07:13.640
<v Speaker 2>for instance,

1441
01:07:13.800 --> 01:07:15.720
<v Speaker 2>I don't think it would affect my thinking at all.

1442
01:07:16.020 --> 01:07:18.760
<v Speaker 2>So that's why I think that I think from the neck up.

1443
01:07:18.940 --> 01:07:20.360
<v Speaker 2>OK, thank you.

1444
01:07:25.120 --> 01:07:27.620
<v Chair>And so we've only got time for one more question.

1445
01:07:27.640 --> 01:07:30.020
<v Chair>I've just been handed this card that says one more question.

1446
01:07:30.740 --> 01:07:31.620
<v Chair>So, please.

1447
01:07:31.700 --> 01:07:33.420
<v Audience>If I may, to the panel,

1448
01:07:33.520 --> 01:07:35.600
<v Audience>in particular, however, Joanne and Max,

1449
01:07:36.120 --> 01:07:38.340
<v Audience>in the context of hope and fear,

1450
01:07:38.800 --> 01:07:41.020
<v Audience>and Joanne, in your journey through history,

1451
01:07:41.560 --> 01:07:43.320
<v Audience>where would you see motivation,

1452
01:07:43.460 --> 01:07:45.960
<v Audience>in particular intrinsic motivation,

1453
01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:48.860
<v Audience>and extrinsic motivation fitting,

1454
01:07:49.040 --> 01:07:51.640
<v Audience>particularly in relation to human emotions?

1455
01:07:53.000 --> 01:07:54.500
<v Audience>Do you want to have a go at that, Joanne?

1456
01:07:54.580 --> 01:07:56.880
<v Speaker 3>Well, I think money and love.

1457
01:07:59.360 --> 01:08:00.000
<v Speaker 3>Intrinsic and extrinsic.

1458
01:08:00.820 --> 01:08:02.900
<v Speaker 3>I think that in terms of motivation,

1459
01:08:02.920 --> 01:08:06.200
<v Speaker 3>if I'm forced to make a choice,

1460
01:08:06.340 --> 01:08:07.160
<v Speaker 3>it would be those two.

1461
01:08:09.260 --> 01:08:10.060
<v Speaker 2>OK. Well...

1462
01:08:10.060 --> 01:08:11.000
<v Speaker 2>Where do you fit, Max?

1463
01:08:11.500 --> 01:08:12.020
<v Speaker 2>Oh, OK.

1464
01:08:12.120 --> 01:08:13.160
<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm talking about this this afternoon.

1465
01:08:13.280 --> 01:08:15.960
<v Speaker 2>Some people, when they become schizophrenic,

1466
01:08:15.960 --> 01:08:16.940
<v Speaker 2>give up the ghost,

1467
01:08:16.980 --> 01:08:17.980
<v Speaker 2>and some people fight it.

1468
01:08:18.300 --> 01:08:20.400
<v Speaker 2>Some people, when they can no longer speak

1469
01:08:20.400 --> 01:08:22.020
<v Speaker 2>or understand speech after brain damage,

1470
01:08:22.200 --> 01:08:24.260
<v Speaker 2>give up the ghost, others fight it.

1471
01:08:24.340 --> 01:08:26.600
<v Speaker 2>I wonder what makes people so different,

1472
01:08:26.700 --> 01:08:28.180
<v Speaker 2>and I'll be talking about this after lunch.

1473
01:08:28.360 --> 01:08:29.000
<v Speaker 2>OK. Thank you.

1474
01:08:29.380 --> 01:08:32.180
<v Chair>Well, I'd like you to join me, please,

1475
01:08:32.300 --> 01:08:34.760
<v Chair>in thanking our wonderful...