WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.640 Someone in the last session asked if we could turn the sun off because it was getting in their eyes. 2 00:00:04.680 --> 00:00:06.320 I take it you don't have any objections. 3 00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:08.620 And it's a very beautiful hall. 4 00:00:10.220 --> 00:00:15.600 Welcome to the Benison Hall on this lovely Adelaide afternoon on a Saturday 5 00:00:15.600 --> 00:00:23.540 and to a panel that I think will weave together these two very large themes of our festival, 6 00:00:23.720 --> 00:00:25.460 hope and fear. 7 00:00:26.200 --> 00:00:29.800 I'm Maureen Fraser and I'm delighted to welcome you and to welcome our guests. 8 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:35.020 And before we start, I'd just like to acknowledge that we're gathered here 9 00:00:35.020 --> 00:00:39.940 by the grace of the traditional owners, the Kaurna people, on their land. 10 00:00:41.040 --> 00:00:44.640 Our panel, with whom many of you will now be familiar, 11 00:00:44.720 --> 00:00:46.420 so I'm not going to do long introductions. 12 00:00:46.420 --> 00:00:47.620 You can read some of them. 13 00:00:47.740 --> 00:00:52.340 On my left here, Joanna Burke, historian, professor of history at Birkbeck, 14 00:00:52.440 --> 00:00:56.540 author most famously of an intimate history of killing, 15 00:00:56.740 --> 00:00:59.280 face-to-face killing in 20th century warfare, 16 00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:04.820 and soon to be published and absolutely germane to both this festival and to our panel today, 17 00:01:06.340 --> 00:01:10.160 a book entitled, got to find the right spot, 18 00:01:11.160 --> 00:01:16.080 A History of Fear, that's right, fear, colon, a cultural history of the 20th century. 19 00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:21.140 And not next to Joanna, they've shuffled their deck chairs around, 20 00:01:21.400 --> 00:01:23.680 something shocking, so I've got to get this right. 21 00:01:23.880 --> 00:01:28.380 Move, one, two, three, four, five, along, in the red shirt. 22 00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:34.780 We have Ghassan Harsh, an anthropologist, social critic from the University of Sydney, 23 00:01:34.940 --> 00:01:39.940 and his most recent book, again, absolutely germane to today's discussion, 24 00:01:40.280 --> 00:01:45.420 Against Paranoid Nationalism, Searching for Hope in a Shrinking Society. 25 00:01:45.960 --> 00:01:50.820 And sitting next to Ghassan is Arthur, who is going to be his scribe. 26 00:01:50.840 --> 00:01:53.120 So we haven't got seven speakers, we have six. 27 00:01:55.460 --> 00:01:59.100 On the left of Joanna, here in black, 28 00:01:59.280 --> 00:02:03.080 not in pink, Zia Sadar, who we've heard quite a lot from, 29 00:02:03.180 --> 00:02:07.040 writer, journalist, academic, radio and television commentator, 30 00:02:07.860 --> 00:02:11.800 scholar of Islam, of post-modernism, of Orientalism, 31 00:02:11.900 --> 00:02:14.240 and a great talker, as you've already heard. 32 00:02:15.100 --> 00:02:19.540 And next to, in the claret colour, next to Zia, 33 00:02:20.360 --> 00:02:23.280 is Peter Beilhart, professor of sociology at La Trobe University, 34 00:02:23.740 --> 00:02:28.620 author of 11 books, many of them on subjects that weave around 35 00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:31.140 this area, but one particularly interesting one called 36 00:02:31.140 --> 00:02:34.540 Imagining the Antipodes, imagining what it's like to be down here 37 00:02:34.540 --> 00:02:35.700 rather than up there. 38 00:02:36.660 --> 00:02:41.800 Over on our almost extreme left is Max Coulthart, 39 00:02:41.980 --> 00:02:44.280 professor of psychology at Macquarie University, 40 00:02:44.460 --> 00:02:48.240 Federation Fellow, and expert in mental processes, 41 00:02:48.560 --> 00:02:50.840 the study that we now call cognitive science. 42 00:02:51.240 --> 00:02:56.020 And then on his left, Stephanie Daryk, prolific author, broadcaster, 43 00:02:56.120 --> 00:02:58.460 and explorer of the sort of spiritual, 44 00:02:58.540 --> 00:02:59.260 cognitive sciences. 45 00:03:00.060 --> 00:03:00.520 Stephanie Daryk, PhD, Professor of Psychology, 46 00:03:02.100 --> 00:03:02.540 Science, and 47 00:03:02.540 --> 00:03:05.080 So could I ask you to welcome our seven guests? 48 00:03:12.180 --> 00:03:14.000 Coming to grips with hope and fear. 49 00:03:14.220 --> 00:03:18.940 Now, if we were Michelangelo, we might be able to have a bit of a shot at it. 50 00:03:19.380 --> 00:03:23.140 Imagine that you're not here, but you're in somewhere like this. 51 00:03:23.180 --> 00:03:28.340 You're actually in Rome, and you're looking at the great fresco of the last judgment, 52 00:03:28.340 --> 00:03:30.200 up here where the light is. 53 00:03:30.380 --> 00:03:36.040 And there's the striding angel deciding who will go where, and who will go up, and who will go down. 54 00:03:36.220 --> 00:03:43.860 But about halfway down that great fresco of heaven and hell, hope and damnation, 55 00:03:44.620 --> 00:03:50.760 there's a drooping, flayed, damned skin that's just being hung onto, 56 00:03:50.960 --> 00:03:56.800 and the figure has his fingers like this near the mouth, and the face, the face of that figure, 57 00:03:56.840 --> 00:03:58.320 is the face of God. 58 00:03:58.340 --> 00:03:59.840 The face of Michelangelo himself. 59 00:04:00.540 --> 00:04:05.800 Now that's one way of dealing with fear, or hope, just projecting yourself into the picture. 60 00:04:06.600 --> 00:04:09.660 Hope, hope's a much more difficult one to image. 61 00:04:09.860 --> 00:04:15.100 I think if you can think of an image of hope, please come up to me afterwards and tell me what it is. 62 00:04:15.380 --> 00:04:21.040 Fear, easy. Hope, so subtle, so tricky, so multivalent. 63 00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:28.320 And let's hope that our panel will fill out those two great important questions. 64 00:04:28.340 --> 00:04:30.300 Ponderables for us. Hope and fear. 65 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:32.980 And let's start by welcoming Joanna Burke. 66 00:04:40.120 --> 00:04:49.000 Surrounded, as we often seem to be, by threats, both from external threats and also those from within, 67 00:04:49.100 --> 00:04:51.860 I think it's important for us to recognize two things. 68 00:04:52.040 --> 00:04:55.340 First is fear's contrariness. 69 00:04:55.980 --> 00:04:57.200 And secondly, 70 00:04:58.340 --> 00:05:01.980 its dizzying potential for stimulating hopefulness. 71 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:07.040 And these are the two things I want to talk about very, very briefly in the next seven minutes today. 72 00:05:07.560 --> 00:05:14.620 There are basically three numbers, three contradictions, three main contradictions, I think, that are at the heart of fear. 73 00:05:14.960 --> 00:05:22.480 The first is that in attempting to undo the enemy's power, we often have to make it visible. 74 00:05:22.920 --> 00:05:26.720 The process of identifying the threatening group, 75 00:05:26.720 --> 00:05:29.640 that the people on the other side of the wire, 76 00:05:30.260 --> 00:05:33.040 can, of course, have nasty consequences. 77 00:05:33.280 --> 00:05:40.860 After all, one of the most effective ways of dispelling extreme fear states is, of course, by stimulating hatred. 78 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:44.680 A technique used by governments throughout time. 79 00:05:45.080 --> 00:05:49.580 We only have to think of the debates on immigration, nuclear weapons, and war, 80 00:05:49.700 --> 00:05:53.800 to take three very obvious examples that we've looked at in this festival. 81 00:05:53.800 --> 00:05:57.460 This is not the only contradiction at the heart of fear. 82 00:05:57.720 --> 00:06:02.120 We've seen the next one, related one, most strongly in the last few weeks. 83 00:06:02.320 --> 00:06:06.040 And that is in the process of coping with frightening threats, 84 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:08.820 by defining who is within and who is without. 85 00:06:09.380 --> 00:06:13.420 Frightened people increase the risk of being threatened further. 86 00:06:14.100 --> 00:06:19.640 Obvious example for us today is reactions to terrorism, which other people will be talking about. 87 00:06:19.900 --> 00:06:22.100 But many other examples can be mentioned. 88 00:06:22.540 --> 00:06:23.780 In wartime, for example, 89 00:06:24.740 --> 00:06:28.580 servicemen were more likely to commit atrocities when they were terrified. 90 00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:36.920 And of course, this in turn made the enemy likely to respond with increased violence, increased terror. 91 00:06:37.620 --> 00:06:43.100 Similarly, fear of crime encouraged people to shut themselves up in their homes at night, 92 00:06:43.260 --> 00:06:47.160 where they end up watching television dramas depicting lawless spaces, 93 00:06:47.620 --> 00:06:53.260 which of course served to further increase fear of the criminal outside their door. 94 00:06:53.260 --> 00:06:57.340 And yet again, there is another contradiction at the heart of fear. 95 00:06:57.460 --> 00:07:01.480 And this is the way it is manipulated by numerous organizations, 96 00:07:01.480 --> 00:07:08.520 with a stake in creating fear, while at the same time promising to eradicate it. 97 00:07:09.040 --> 00:07:14.320 Fear circulates within a wealthy economy of powerful interest groups, 98 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:18.840 dependent on ensuring that in fact we remain scared. 99 00:07:19.640 --> 00:07:22.820 Theologians, politicians, media people, physicians, 100 00:07:22.820 --> 00:07:26.740 psychological services depend upon our fright. 101 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:35.740 The substitution of fear-inspiring discourses rather than the obliteration often seems to be their goal. 102 00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:38.360 The final contradiction is this. 103 00:07:38.360 --> 00:07:46.460 The pain at the heart of fear can simultaneously constitute part of the pleasure of this emotion. 104 00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:52.660 People revel in reading about gruesome rapes and murders in the yellow press, 105 00:07:52.660 --> 00:07:57.340 they flock to hear scare-mongering sermons, 106 00:07:57.460 --> 00:08:05.060 they pay money to ride in dazzling, swooping roller coasters or watching horror films. 107 00:08:05.400 --> 00:08:10.980 For many, fear is a central release from everyday tediousness. 108 00:08:11.640 --> 00:08:15.820 Fear, particularly those extremes of fear which involve the group, 109 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:21.600 as opposed to individuals, the lone individual, can, often does, bring pleasure. 110 00:08:21.600 --> 00:08:29.000 A shivering exultation that releases the individual from the tirelessness of the banal. 111 00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:34.660 The glorious Gothic fiction of Stephen King, Annie Rice, 112 00:08:34.900 --> 00:08:38.160 turned fear into a pleasurable commodity. 113 00:08:38.900 --> 00:08:45.700 These and other cultural productions often serve to lance people's fears. 114 00:08:46.100 --> 00:08:51.580 Beyond the pleasure principle, Freud showed how children could create fear, 115 00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:54.660 and how they could create games about situations and objects they most feared, 116 00:08:54.820 --> 00:08:56.400 in order to gain control. 117 00:08:57.600 --> 00:09:02.740 For the adult, cultural production, involving threats, dangers, risks and fears, 118 00:09:02.940 --> 00:09:08.780 enabled people to retreat to the state of childhood and play with what they find most scary. 119 00:09:09.500 --> 00:09:18.000 Just as alien invaders in films, 1950s films such as The Thing and Creatures from the Black Lagoon, 120 00:09:18.100 --> 00:09:21.260 easily stood in for Cold War anxiety, 121 00:09:21.260 --> 00:09:22.980 and the fear of Russian invasion. 122 00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:28.520 So too, people experiment with their fears through symbols and narratives. 123 00:09:29.300 --> 00:09:31.060 Terror becomes part of culture. 124 00:09:31.260 --> 00:09:35.280 Language transforms private terrors into a social event, 125 00:09:35.620 --> 00:09:40.620 providing decisive proof that the individual is no longer alone. 126 00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:47.380 Thus, throughout history we can trace how fear is employed in very creative ways. 127 00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:49.980 Confrontation with danger, 128 00:09:49.980 --> 00:09:51.160 with disaster, 129 00:09:51.320 --> 00:09:56.720 has provided a sense of the sacred that many people otherwise lack. 130 00:09:57.180 --> 00:10:00.980 Although I personally find no comfort in religious narratives, 131 00:10:01.420 --> 00:10:03.440 indeed quite the opposite, they scare me witless, 132 00:10:03.620 --> 00:10:08.320 it is still impossible to deny the fact that religious succor 133 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:12.340 still captures the hearts of many people in fearful situations. 134 00:10:12.900 --> 00:10:17.100 A sizeable proportion of frightened people turn to rituals, 135 00:10:17.160 --> 00:10:19.800 to incarnations, prayers, 136 00:10:19.980 --> 00:10:22.320 etc. as a bridge to their sanity. 137 00:10:23.180 --> 00:10:26.400 Other narrative forms also are effective. 138 00:10:26.940 --> 00:10:30.340 Dreaming, watching disaster films, reading horror literature, 139 00:10:30.520 --> 00:10:34.800 can be a safe, routinized way of playing with death. 140 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:39.240 Whether we accept the psychoanalytical fit line 141 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:45.120 that people watching horror films are responding to the atavistic terrors 142 00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:47.460 nearly as old as the brain, 143 00:10:47.460 --> 00:10:50.680 or whether we accept a more behaviorist interpretation 144 00:10:51.460 --> 00:10:55.120 that the audience is undergoing a process of desensitization, 145 00:10:55.460 --> 00:10:57.740 whichever one we want, 146 00:10:57.880 --> 00:11:00.820 it is clear that these are the all responses 147 00:11:00.820 --> 00:11:05.500 to that most prosaic and universal of fears impending death. 148 00:11:06.180 --> 00:11:10.420 Horror stories and films are not nightmares transcribed, 149 00:11:10.460 --> 00:11:15.020 but fears cast into safe and communable forms. 150 00:11:15.380 --> 00:11:17.440 They are ways of rehearsing, 151 00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:18.000 of addressing our death. 152 00:11:18.520 --> 00:11:22.300 In other words, cultural production is humanity's buffer 153 00:11:22.300 --> 00:11:27.240 against the terror of threatening corporeality and imminent mortality. 154 00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:30.380 It provides a sense of transcendence, 155 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:32.600 fantasy of another world. 156 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:37.300 Rephrased using the language of the anthropologist Mary Douglas, 157 00:11:37.660 --> 00:11:42.020 it soothes the consciousness of unclear borders, 158 00:11:42.300 --> 00:11:43.740 borders of the body, 159 00:11:44.440 --> 00:11:46.040 what is inside, what is outside, 160 00:11:46.180 --> 00:11:47.000 of nature, 161 00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:48.200 illness, death, 162 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:49.840 and of society, 163 00:11:50.160 --> 00:11:52.020 belonging, not belonging. 164 00:11:52.440 --> 00:11:57.520 Most important, it enables people to explore the question of 165 00:11:57.520 --> 00:12:00.000 what is it that makes us human? 166 00:12:00.940 --> 00:12:06.580 What this reminds us is that there is nothing, of course, inherently wrong with fear. 167 00:12:06.900 --> 00:12:09.600 Fear promotes more civilized behavior. 168 00:12:09.680 --> 00:12:12.300 It can restrain us from doing evil. 169 00:12:12.680 --> 00:12:16.440 In many instances, of course, fear is a very appropriate emotion, 170 00:12:16.460 --> 00:12:17.940 to inspire. 171 00:12:19.080 --> 00:12:22.220 This idea can be expressed more positively 172 00:12:22.220 --> 00:12:25.820 in the sense that fear is a great and glorious stimulus 173 00:12:26.460 --> 00:12:30.060 that works in direct, that can work in direct opposition 174 00:12:30.060 --> 00:12:33.940 to attempts to rigidly control our environment. 175 00:12:34.440 --> 00:12:38.120 In other words, to tie the themes of this festival, 176 00:12:38.620 --> 00:12:41.900 we can be hopeful because we fear. 177 00:12:42.280 --> 00:12:45.300 It is sobering to contemplate a world 178 00:12:45.300 --> 00:12:48.080 where parents do not fear for their children, 179 00:12:48.260 --> 00:12:52.760 or when death is as insignificant as eating a meal. 180 00:12:55.300 --> 00:13:02.260 It's daunting to contemplate a world where fear of triumphs over fear for. 181 00:13:02.660 --> 00:13:05.700 A world without fear is also a world without love. 182 00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:09.540 Fear has been one of the most significant driving forces in history, 183 00:13:09.760 --> 00:13:14.480 encouraging individuals to reflect more deeply and prompting them to action. 184 00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:19.440 Indeed, much of human creativity depends upon our fears. 185 00:13:19.920 --> 00:13:23.020 Fear of being struck down in our prime, 186 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:24.300 of being rejected, 187 00:13:24.500 --> 00:13:27.780 of not understanding how one's loved one will respond, 188 00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:29.680 and of self-consciousness. 189 00:13:30.260 --> 00:13:35.000 Finally, it is right to fear the pain suffered by others. 190 00:13:35.340 --> 00:13:38.320 The lover addresses the loved one with the words, 191 00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:41.740 How can I face the fear that threatens you? 192 00:13:41.740 --> 00:13:47.420 Fear can inspire a deafening deliverance from cultural constraints. 193 00:13:47.880 --> 00:13:50.760 It evokes the dizziness of freedom, 194 00:13:50.940 --> 00:13:53.260 the promise of hope. 195 00:13:53.580 --> 00:13:54.400 Thank you. 196 00:14:01.740 --> 00:14:03.720 You thought they were separate, didn't you? 197 00:14:04.740 --> 00:14:05.800 Kassan Haas. 198 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:10.300 Thank you very much. 199 00:14:13.700 --> 00:14:14.480 Thank you. 200 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:29.460 I'll just begin by saying that it's very important never to treat hope and fear as opposites. 201 00:14:30.580 --> 00:14:34.880 Hope and fear are very intimately related as sentiments, 202 00:14:34.880 --> 00:14:35.720 as... 203 00:14:37.500 --> 00:14:41.240 Do I have to speak up? 204 00:14:41.820 --> 00:14:42.480 Okay. 205 00:14:45.020 --> 00:14:50.660 It's very important to treat hope and fear as interrelated. 206 00:14:52.460 --> 00:14:54.800 Spinoza, who some of you might know, 207 00:14:55.160 --> 00:14:59.200 very importantly emphasized this fact that 208 00:14:59.960 --> 00:15:03.580 there is no hope without fear and there is no fear without hope. 209 00:15:03.580 --> 00:15:10.140 The very idea of I hope something is coming means it is tinged with the fear that it's not going to come. 210 00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:14.280 Otherwise, I'll say I'm confident it's coming, I'm certain it's coming. 211 00:15:14.380 --> 00:15:16.700 I hope it's coming means I fear it's not. 212 00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:24.900 So hope and fear are always about how we face the uncertainty of the future. 213 00:15:25.700 --> 00:15:27.160 The future is unfolding. 214 00:15:27.580 --> 00:15:30.100 And it's very important also to realize that 215 00:15:30.100 --> 00:15:33.400 we are never static. 216 00:15:33.400 --> 00:15:34.400 In the world, 217 00:15:35.300 --> 00:15:37.400 we are always on the move. 218 00:15:37.900 --> 00:15:38.880 Symbolically, at least, 219 00:15:39.400 --> 00:15:41.740 we like to be on the move. 220 00:15:41.900 --> 00:15:45.720 One of the major sources of anxiety today is 221 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:49.780 when we experience ourselves as stuck in life. 222 00:15:50.680 --> 00:15:54.120 It is when we feel we're going. 223 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:55.840 Let's say, how are you going? 224 00:15:56.360 --> 00:15:58.420 We don't say, how are you sitting? 225 00:15:58.500 --> 00:16:00.320 Or how are you going? 226 00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:01.720 And... 227 00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:06.600 And the idea of going is very much embedded in our psyche. 228 00:16:06.740 --> 00:16:09.600 We like to be symbolically on the move. 229 00:16:09.900 --> 00:16:13.200 And this translates often under capitalism 230 00:16:13.720 --> 00:16:16.420 in the desire for upward social mobility. 231 00:16:16.920 --> 00:16:17.100 And... 232 00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:18.820 But it's not... 233 00:16:18.820 --> 00:16:21.160 Hasn't obviously always been the case, 234 00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:24.400 but it's always been the case that we like to be on the move. 235 00:16:24.660 --> 00:16:28.360 And we can see today that many of the people 236 00:16:28.360 --> 00:16:31.080 who experience anxieties toward the future 237 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:33.220 are people who are stuck socially. 238 00:16:34.220 --> 00:16:36.080 When we look at anxiety, 239 00:16:36.340 --> 00:16:40.260 it's not related to social class so much. 240 00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:42.800 It's related to people who are suffering 241 00:16:42.800 --> 00:16:45.500 from a sense of being stuck. 242 00:16:46.500 --> 00:16:50.740 They feel, you know, sometimes you get jealousy 243 00:16:50.740 --> 00:16:55.620 because you see people moving more than we are. 244 00:16:55.840 --> 00:16:57.960 Even though they are 245 00:16:59.120 --> 00:17:00.660 at a different... 246 00:17:01.480 --> 00:17:03.220 level of the social spectrum. 247 00:17:03.460 --> 00:17:04.400 So we could be... 248 00:17:05.760 --> 00:17:06.240 social... 249 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:07.560 you know, socioeconomically... 250 00:17:08.840 --> 00:17:09.640 up there. 251 00:17:10.380 --> 00:17:12.580 And we're looking at someone down there. 252 00:17:12.820 --> 00:17:15.060 But if we're stuck up there 253 00:17:15.060 --> 00:17:17.160 and we see the one down there moving, 254 00:17:17.460 --> 00:17:18.780 we get jealous. 255 00:17:19.460 --> 00:17:19.940 So... 256 00:17:20.600 --> 00:17:23.660 So this is why when we look at Hansenites, 257 00:17:24.460 --> 00:17:25.580 people like this, 258 00:17:25.620 --> 00:17:27.180 it's not a class thing. 259 00:17:27.320 --> 00:17:29.920 You see, they look at a refugee who comes and says, 260 00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:32.540 hey, he is on social security. 261 00:17:32.660 --> 00:17:34.840 Ah, he's owning an apartment. 262 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:39.020 Yesterday or last year he didn't have an apartment. 263 00:17:39.140 --> 00:17:39.960 Now he has an apartment. 264 00:17:40.100 --> 00:17:42.940 Even though that person is nowhere near reaching 265 00:17:43.480 --> 00:17:46.240 the level statically, 266 00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:48.720 but they're moving, I'm stuck. 267 00:17:49.040 --> 00:17:53.620 This is a feeling which is very much dominant 268 00:17:53.620 --> 00:17:56.300 among farm people today. 269 00:17:56.420 --> 00:17:58.140 They work, 270 00:17:58.180 --> 00:17:59.560 and they feel they're stuck. 271 00:17:59.560 --> 00:18:02.760 That's why that feeling of stuckness is so dominant 272 00:18:02.760 --> 00:18:05.340 in rural areas. 273 00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:11.400 And you get some of this sentiment emerging from them. 274 00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:15.680 So this important idea that we're going, 275 00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:17.080 that life is advancing, 276 00:18:17.360 --> 00:18:18.300 that I'm advancing, 277 00:18:18.440 --> 00:18:20.540 if I'm stuck, I feel anxiety 278 00:18:20.540 --> 00:18:23.040 about what life is coming towards me. 279 00:18:24.340 --> 00:18:26.660 So hopefulness here, 280 00:18:26.700 --> 00:18:28.560 it's about hopefulness. 281 00:18:28.560 --> 00:18:31.820 It's something quite different from hope. 282 00:18:31.960 --> 00:18:34.460 The difficulty with thinking with hope is that, 283 00:18:34.500 --> 00:18:36.120 you know, it can be a verb, 284 00:18:36.300 --> 00:18:38.080 I hope, action. 285 00:18:38.600 --> 00:18:40.540 But it's also a state of being. 286 00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:41.740 I'm hopeful. 287 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:47.340 And often you will find that the more hopeful you are, 288 00:18:47.420 --> 00:18:48.880 the less you hope. 289 00:18:50.020 --> 00:18:53.080 Hope is, as an action, 290 00:18:53.280 --> 00:18:56.800 is often the product of hopelessness. 291 00:18:57.560 --> 00:19:00.200 It is on the side of passivity. 292 00:19:00.420 --> 00:19:01.340 I hope. 293 00:19:01.480 --> 00:19:03.320 It's the ethic of the encounter. 294 00:19:03.540 --> 00:19:04.580 I hope it rains tomorrow. 295 00:19:04.700 --> 00:19:05.960 I can't do anything about it. 296 00:19:06.820 --> 00:19:08.480 Maybe it will, maybe it's not. 297 00:19:08.540 --> 00:19:11.360 Sort of like, okay, if I encounter rain, fantastic. 298 00:19:11.460 --> 00:19:12.740 If not, too bad. 299 00:19:13.760 --> 00:19:16.740 So hope invites passivity. 300 00:19:16.860 --> 00:19:19.820 What I want, sort of like, involves activity. 301 00:19:21.020 --> 00:19:24.040 And hopeful people are active people. 302 00:19:24.800 --> 00:19:26.180 Hopeless people, hope. 303 00:19:26.800 --> 00:19:28.100 That's why Spinoza, 304 00:19:28.800 --> 00:19:30.880 whom is lurking in my back here, 305 00:19:31.120 --> 00:19:33.840 did not have an ethic of hope. 306 00:19:34.020 --> 00:19:38.880 He did not think that hope was such a fantastic thing as a verb. 307 00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:40.760 He believed in joy. 308 00:19:41.800 --> 00:19:46.020 And the ethic of joy is much more important for him. 309 00:19:46.060 --> 00:19:50.620 He said hope was an inconsistent joy. 310 00:19:51.220 --> 00:19:53.980 And so I'm on the side of joy. 311 00:19:54.600 --> 00:19:55.600 On his side. 312 00:19:55.600 --> 00:20:00.080 Not on the side of hope in this sense. 313 00:20:01.720 --> 00:20:05.380 But two weeks ago, 314 00:20:05.500 --> 00:20:09.320 I gave my students in anthropology 315 00:20:09.320 --> 00:20:13.080 a very little ethnographic exercise, 316 00:20:13.240 --> 00:20:15.580 which is what we do in anthropology. 317 00:20:15.800 --> 00:20:19.980 You train how to note, how people move, how they interact, etc. 318 00:20:20.500 --> 00:20:23.020 A very important art 319 00:20:23.600 --> 00:20:25.580 of knowing the other. 320 00:20:25.600 --> 00:20:29.600 No matter what you have to say about anthropology today, 321 00:20:29.740 --> 00:20:31.680 it is a crucial discipline. 322 00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:41.180 Because it is animated by the desire to labor on trying to know the other. 323 00:20:41.380 --> 00:20:44.000 Which is often something people don't do 324 00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:48.380 when they're in a paranoid, non-hopeful, non-joyful state. 325 00:20:49.520 --> 00:20:52.440 And so this art of laboring on knowing the other. 326 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:53.900 But what's important, 327 00:20:53.900 --> 00:20:57.240 I gave them this ethnographic exercise. 328 00:20:57.420 --> 00:20:59.540 It was David Jones' sales. 329 00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:01.960 I don't know if it's David Jones' sales at the moment here. 330 00:21:03.900 --> 00:21:09.100 But we went up and looked at people queuing, 331 00:21:09.120 --> 00:21:14.260 getting their presents wrapped at David Jones'. 332 00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:17.740 And they were queuing, waiting, 333 00:21:18.740 --> 00:21:21.340 for the, in the department, 334 00:21:21.340 --> 00:21:23.440 at the place where they wrap whatever you buy. 335 00:21:23.660 --> 00:21:24.720 And they were waiting. 336 00:21:25.500 --> 00:21:31.440 And the aim of the exercise was to just observe people waiting. 337 00:21:33.560 --> 00:21:34.680 How do you wait? 338 00:21:35.640 --> 00:21:37.900 Now, this is the essence of hope. 339 00:21:37.980 --> 00:21:39.440 Hope is how you wait. 340 00:21:41.080 --> 00:21:43.180 Hopefulness is about how you wait. 341 00:21:44.180 --> 00:21:46.380 What is coming at me, etc. 342 00:21:47.360 --> 00:21:50.700 And so, know how thinking on the ground. 343 00:21:50.700 --> 00:21:52.920 Sit down and watch how people are waiting. 344 00:21:53.080 --> 00:21:56.400 Watch how that person is confidently waiting. 345 00:21:56.600 --> 00:21:57.600 My turn is coming. 346 00:21:57.980 --> 00:22:02.340 Here's the person not having anxiety about sitting in the queue. 347 00:22:02.560 --> 00:22:03.520 My turn is coming. 348 00:22:03.840 --> 00:22:06.400 Another person fidgeting, looking, 349 00:22:06.780 --> 00:22:08.660 they're going to overtake me from here, 350 00:22:08.760 --> 00:22:10.120 they're going to overtake me from here. 351 00:22:11.500 --> 00:22:13.060 Defensive personality person. 352 00:22:13.240 --> 00:22:16.360 So, the art of waiting tells you a lot. 353 00:22:16.420 --> 00:22:20.180 How people, how hopeful people are in life. 354 00:22:20.180 --> 00:22:22.380 Do I meet life with anxiety? 355 00:22:23.180 --> 00:22:26.680 Or do I meet people with certainty, with confidence, etc. 356 00:22:26.940 --> 00:22:31.660 This not only affects how I perceive the future, 357 00:22:31.760 --> 00:22:33.840 but it affects how I relate to others. 358 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:36.800 So, the ethnographic exercise does not involve 359 00:22:36.800 --> 00:22:39.320 always only sitting outside the queue 360 00:22:39.320 --> 00:22:41.060 and watching people how they fidget. 361 00:22:41.400 --> 00:22:44.760 You enter the queue and start socializing with people. 362 00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:46.460 Get a little thing and say, 363 00:22:47.180 --> 00:22:49.460 and you see how people are talking to you. 364 00:22:49.460 --> 00:22:51.820 Some of them are friendly, some of them are friendly. 365 00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:55.220 I say, but don't you dare use my friendliness to overtake me. 366 00:22:57.480 --> 00:22:58.000 Etc. 367 00:22:58.440 --> 00:22:58.960 That's it? 368 00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:01.260 I'll finish. 369 00:23:02.020 --> 00:23:02.720 No way. 370 00:23:02.820 --> 00:23:04.160 Soon. One minute. 371 00:23:05.740 --> 00:23:07.100 I'm anxious to finish. 372 00:23:10.740 --> 00:23:14.020 Sometimes you can be too hopeful, you neglect the time. 373 00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:17.480 Yeah. 374 00:23:17.480 --> 00:23:19.880 So, what is important? 375 00:23:20.500 --> 00:23:25.340 This idea of hopefulness is linked to security. 376 00:23:25.860 --> 00:23:29.280 To a sense of how anchored you are in life. 377 00:23:29.340 --> 00:23:30.940 How secure you are in life. 378 00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:35.920 How confident you are in meeting what life is. 379 00:23:36.200 --> 00:23:41.000 And you can take this little example to talk about social security. 380 00:23:41.300 --> 00:23:45.220 Not the department, but the sense of... 381 00:23:45.220 --> 00:23:46.500 I mean, the department is involved. 382 00:23:46.500 --> 00:23:50.200 But the idea of how do we develop a sense of... 383 00:23:50.200 --> 00:23:53.000 We are anchored in society. 384 00:23:53.300 --> 00:23:54.380 It gives us security. 385 00:23:54.760 --> 00:23:58.980 When we have a society which no longer provides us this secure base, 386 00:23:59.200 --> 00:24:03.480 we become aggressive, we become the fidgety in the queue. 387 00:24:03.700 --> 00:24:07.840 We become the one worried that the other is going to take over us. 388 00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:10.280 We become racist, paranoid, etc. 389 00:24:10.300 --> 00:24:13.880 All of these things come from these modalities. 390 00:24:14.620 --> 00:24:15.280 I hope. 391 00:24:15.500 --> 00:24:15.880 Thank you. 392 00:24:25.500 --> 00:24:26.240 Zia Sada. 393 00:24:32.380 --> 00:24:32.820 Fear. 394 00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:35.240 I will tell you what fear is. 395 00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:37.140 Fear is standing here. 396 00:24:37.520 --> 00:24:38.620 Looking at you lot. 397 00:24:38.800 --> 00:24:41.080 And not having a single idea what I'm going to say. 398 00:24:43.040 --> 00:24:43.480 Hope. 399 00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:46.520 Hope is that pregnant moment. 400 00:24:47.980 --> 00:24:50.300 That pregnant moment that you just had. 401 00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:55.900 When you know, I will actually say something, despite the fact that I know nothing what I'm going to say. 402 00:24:57.500 --> 00:24:59.060 Fear is like a river. 403 00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:00.640 This river here. 404 00:25:01.780 --> 00:25:05.460 People in two rows with a structure. 405 00:25:08.040 --> 00:25:09.300 Imagine that river. 406 00:25:10.340 --> 00:25:12.880 As a river that is taking us to a future. 407 00:25:13.820 --> 00:25:15.620 It is a determined future. 408 00:25:15.780 --> 00:25:19.500 It is a future that is determined by the walls or the banks of the river. 409 00:25:20.260 --> 00:25:21.700 We flow in this river. 410 00:25:23.160 --> 00:25:24.620 We face rapids. 411 00:25:24.620 --> 00:25:26.300 We negotiate rapids. 412 00:25:26.580 --> 00:25:28.080 We come to a fall. 413 00:25:28.120 --> 00:25:28.660 We fall. 414 00:25:29.380 --> 00:25:31.400 But we remain within the river. 415 00:25:32.260 --> 00:25:34.720 And the river takes us in a given direction. 416 00:25:35.680 --> 00:25:42.000 In other words, we fear a future that has already been determined for us. 417 00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:43.900 A future that is colonized. 418 00:25:44.040 --> 00:25:46.180 That is the greatest of all fears. 419 00:25:46.420 --> 00:25:51.200 The fear that even in the future, we cannot change anything. 420 00:25:51.400 --> 00:25:53.620 That everything is already fixed. 421 00:25:53.840 --> 00:26:01.880 And that's what in fact, forecast, predictions, development of technology is all about. 422 00:26:02.020 --> 00:26:05.500 It's all about determining a fixed future. 423 00:26:05.580 --> 00:26:08.180 A future that is already colonized. 424 00:26:08.660 --> 00:26:11.200 Largely by America. 425 00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:14.260 American corporations and the American military power. 426 00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:18.800 With the help and associations of a rather pathetic British prime minister. 427 00:26:19.040 --> 00:26:21.720 And even more pathetic Australian prime minister. 428 00:26:28.160 --> 00:26:29.940 Hope is like an ocean. 429 00:26:32.040 --> 00:26:33.120 Imagine an ocean. 430 00:26:33.280 --> 00:26:35.840 In an ocean, you can have a little ship. 431 00:26:36.040 --> 00:26:38.180 You can go in any direction you like. 432 00:26:38.540 --> 00:26:40.000 You can go in this direction. 433 00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:41.340 You can go in that direction. 434 00:26:41.720 --> 00:26:44.920 You ought to have a vision of where you want to go. 435 00:26:45.100 --> 00:26:48.020 So if you have a given direction, it does help. 436 00:26:48.520 --> 00:26:51.920 And it does help if your ship has some navigational tools. 437 00:26:52.120 --> 00:26:59.140 So you can negotiate your direction and go wherever you want to go. 438 00:26:59.300 --> 00:27:03.720 But ultimately, hope gives you several directions. 439 00:27:04.140 --> 00:27:07.480 Hope says that future is not predetermined. 440 00:27:07.620 --> 00:27:09.980 Hope says that future can be shared. 441 00:27:09.980 --> 00:27:10.280 And shaped. 442 00:27:10.360 --> 00:27:16.040 That you and I, all those people in this structured room, can leave this room. 443 00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:21.240 And with some determination, can actually change and shape the future. 444 00:27:22.100 --> 00:27:23.500 What need more I say? 445 00:27:23.600 --> 00:27:24.100 Thank you. 446 00:27:32.040 --> 00:27:33.220 Peter Beilhart. 447 00:27:40.100 --> 00:27:42.020 I have to follow poets. 448 00:27:44.920 --> 00:27:46.960 Mine is just the pros of the world. 449 00:27:47.060 --> 00:27:50.720 I had the pleasure of bumping into Hugh Stratton outside. 450 00:27:52.260 --> 00:27:55.060 Is a sentiment an emotion? 451 00:27:56.460 --> 00:27:57.300 I'm unsure. 452 00:27:57.420 --> 00:27:59.280 But let me begin with a sentiment. 453 00:27:59.760 --> 00:28:09.400 I can't imagine that we would be here in Adelaide today at an event like this were it not for the work of people like Hugh Stratton. 454 00:28:16.140 --> 00:28:17.980 You know him better than I do. 455 00:28:18.020 --> 00:28:19.300 He'd call that bullshit. 456 00:28:19.520 --> 00:28:20.700 But I think it's sentiment. 457 00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:22.200 Respect. 458 00:28:22.380 --> 00:28:25.940 Hope is an anthropological feature of humans. 459 00:28:26.940 --> 00:28:28.500 Perhaps especially in modernity. 460 00:28:28.500 --> 00:28:28.980 I'm not sure. 461 00:28:29.840 --> 00:28:37.300 Even if it alternates with other moods like melancholy, nostalgia, a sense of loss. 462 00:28:38.740 --> 00:28:39.960 However, it seems to me that it's not. 463 00:28:39.960 --> 00:28:48.600 There's no finer example of the human sense that we can do better of moderate yet radical hope than people like Hugh Stratton. 464 00:28:50.900 --> 00:28:51.700 To business. 465 00:28:53.320 --> 00:28:58.380 My sense is that it's less important to try and catch the idea of hope. 466 00:28:58.680 --> 00:29:00.460 It sounds a bit loony like. 467 00:29:02.340 --> 00:29:06.700 I'm not sure that we need to catch the idea of hope because we know what it is. 468 00:29:07.940 --> 00:29:08.460 Experientially. 469 00:29:08.460 --> 00:29:11.760 Until we're challenged to define it. 470 00:29:12.780 --> 00:29:16.060 And it's less dangerous than fear. 471 00:29:16.200 --> 00:29:17.840 It gives us less to worry about. 472 00:29:18.680 --> 00:29:26.320 Except in cases where, like paranoia, it indicates delusory expectations. 473 00:29:29.100 --> 00:29:38.240 Though even delusory expectations are often also private in a certain sense. 474 00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:39.260 Rather than public. 475 00:29:41.500 --> 00:29:45.140 Private paranoia, relatively speaking, is one thing. 476 00:29:46.540 --> 00:29:51.160 Public or state-led paranoia is another altogether. 477 00:29:53.620 --> 00:29:57.200 I have a few things I'd like to hear other people speak about. 478 00:29:57.300 --> 00:30:06.440 I'd like to hear others, perhaps Max Holthard, talk about the idea of multiple rationalities. 479 00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:10.800 The kinds of contradictions that we carry in our heads. 480 00:30:10.900 --> 00:30:13.460 Or forms of rationality. 481 00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:16.820 In the discussion that we shared here yesterday. 482 00:30:18.840 --> 00:30:20.840 Where's the fun in fundamentalism? 483 00:30:21.960 --> 00:30:27.720 It occurred to me actually a better title would be where's the mentality in fundamentality? 484 00:30:27.720 --> 00:30:30.580 Or what's the mentality in fundamentality? 485 00:30:31.820 --> 00:30:35.500 Max was suggesting that if I understood him at all. 486 00:30:35.500 --> 00:30:41.540 We carry a whole bunch of contradictory forms of consciousness in our heads. 487 00:30:41.720 --> 00:30:46.600 And it's quite possible that we transfer between these levels. 488 00:30:47.700 --> 00:30:54.800 So we transfer between levels of denial, causality and connection. 489 00:30:55.980 --> 00:31:02.980 I'm wondering whether my colleague Robert Mann's idea of a culture of denial shouldn't perhaps be expanded. 490 00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:05.480 Beyond the way that we think about it. 491 00:31:05.480 --> 00:31:09.660 From white culture and indigenous cultures. 492 00:31:10.100 --> 00:31:13.460 To thinking more generally about what it is that we deny. 493 00:31:14.740 --> 00:31:22.780 I took Max Holthard to be raising questions about the possibility that a fear on one level of our consciousness. 494 00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:31.920 Is open to manipulation or movement or being addressed on another level of our consciousness. 495 00:31:33.600 --> 00:31:35.460 If you'll allow me a reference to that. 496 00:31:35.480 --> 00:31:38.600 I'm going to go back to a blues tune that I associate with B.B. King. 497 00:31:39.900 --> 00:31:41.280 There's a line there that goes. 498 00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:43.380 I'm unhappy about my life. 499 00:31:43.420 --> 00:31:44.380 My wife left me. 500 00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:45.120 The dogs died. 501 00:31:46.500 --> 00:31:47.500 Let's invade Iraq. 502 00:31:52.900 --> 00:31:53.600 I'm serious. 503 00:31:55.840 --> 00:31:58.880 I suspect that there's a whole bunch of things that psychologists. 504 00:32:00.140 --> 00:32:01.180 Perhaps psychoanalysts. 505 00:32:01.900 --> 00:32:04.400 Understand much better than people like me. 506 00:32:05.480 --> 00:32:12.900 How it is that particular kinds of politics hook into particular kinds of insecurities that we carry. 507 00:32:13.800 --> 00:32:21.400 So that we seem to consent to certain things that pose differently. 508 00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:23.320 We would not consent to. 509 00:32:25.360 --> 00:32:27.280 A more general question for me. 510 00:32:27.820 --> 00:32:30.460 And for Max Holthard or anyone else. 511 00:32:30.700 --> 00:32:31.860 Is the question. 512 00:32:32.680 --> 00:32:34.660 Is fear a stronger emotion. 513 00:32:34.660 --> 00:32:35.600 Than hope. 514 00:32:36.040 --> 00:32:37.120 Because it's. 515 00:32:37.140 --> 00:32:37.660 Negative. 516 00:32:38.300 --> 00:32:39.120 Or reactive. 517 00:32:41.560 --> 00:32:42.820 It seems to me that. 518 00:32:42.880 --> 00:32:43.240 Hope. 519 00:32:44.280 --> 00:32:45.320 Like creativity. 520 00:32:46.220 --> 00:32:46.740 And. 521 00:32:46.840 --> 00:32:47.360 Innovation. 522 00:32:48.040 --> 00:32:49.040 Like the capacity. 523 00:32:49.240 --> 00:32:49.580 To go. 524 00:32:49.720 --> 00:32:50.020 On. 525 00:32:51.160 --> 00:32:51.680 Is. 526 00:32:51.840 --> 00:32:52.360 A. 527 00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:52.780 Tray. 528 00:32:53.100 --> 00:32:53.620 Which. 529 00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:53.800 We. 530 00:32:53.820 --> 00:32:54.100 Carry. 531 00:32:55.320 --> 00:32:56.000 Even in. 532 00:32:56.060 --> 00:32:56.160 Our. 533 00:32:56.180 --> 00:32:56.600 Blackest. 534 00:32:56.620 --> 00:32:57.080 Moments. 535 00:32:59.000 --> 00:32:59.520 Remember. 536 00:32:59.740 --> 00:32:59.980 Beck. 537 00:33:00.120 --> 00:33:00.460 I. 538 00:33:01.580 --> 00:33:02.100 Can't. 539 00:33:02.100 --> 00:33:02.240 Go. 540 00:33:02.340 --> 00:33:02.580 On. 541 00:33:02.580 --> 00:33:04.500 I can't go on 542 00:33:04.500 --> 00:33:06.000 I go on 543 00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:10.200 if fear has to do with 544 00:33:10.200 --> 00:33:11.000 challenge 545 00:33:12.180 --> 00:33:14.900 it also concerns us because it threatens 546 00:33:14.900 --> 00:33:15.500 capacity 547 00:33:15.500 --> 00:33:18.200 it results in incapacity 548 00:33:18.200 --> 00:33:20.500 I guess the standard 549 00:33:20.500 --> 00:33:22.780 response in conversations 550 00:33:22.780 --> 00:33:24.280 about fear would be that 551 00:33:24.280 --> 00:33:26.700 it generates alternatives 552 00:33:26.700 --> 00:33:28.820 such as flight or fight 553 00:33:28.820 --> 00:33:30.820 but it also raises 554 00:33:30.820 --> 00:33:32.820 other possibilities, perhaps more 555 00:33:32.820 --> 00:33:34.660 like containment or 556 00:33:34.660 --> 00:33:37.080 inertia or freezing 557 00:33:37.080 --> 00:33:38.880 and for us 558 00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:40.620 this includes I think problems 559 00:33:40.620 --> 00:33:42.360 to do with the freezing of politics 560 00:33:44.540 --> 00:33:46.500 this is even more difficult 561 00:33:46.500 --> 00:33:48.720 for us because we live in 562 00:33:49.600 --> 00:33:50.760 turbulent times 563 00:33:50.760 --> 00:33:52.340 turbo times 564 00:33:54.660 --> 00:33:56.760 fears and hopes are politically framed 565 00:33:57.520 --> 00:33:58.900 so that the fears of 566 00:33:58.900 --> 00:34:00.520 some are also the hopes of 567 00:34:00.520 --> 00:34:01.880 some others 568 00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:05.460 so finally for me this raises 569 00:34:05.460 --> 00:34:07.780 questions which again have already been 570 00:34:07.780 --> 00:34:10.000 mooted about uncertainty 571 00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:12.340 which is a theme that 572 00:34:12.340 --> 00:34:14.260 I hold to be central 573 00:34:14.260 --> 00:34:15.540 in the company of 574 00:34:16.280 --> 00:34:18.320 other thinkers such as Zygmunt Bauman 575 00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:22.020 Bauman refers us to 576 00:34:24.380 --> 00:34:26.020 the German term 577 00:34:27.200 --> 00:34:27.840 Unsicherheit 578 00:34:28.520 --> 00:34:29.980 the opposite of certainty 579 00:34:30.740 --> 00:34:33.400 he wants to use the German term 580 00:34:33.400 --> 00:34:34.380 not to be obscure 581 00:34:34.380 --> 00:34:37.240 but because it has a threefold meaning 582 00:34:37.240 --> 00:34:39.960 which is lost in translation 583 00:34:42.900 --> 00:34:45.620 Unsicherheit refers to three kinds of experience 584 00:34:45.620 --> 00:34:47.320 which are often bound up 585 00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:49.600 uncertainty 586 00:34:51.040 --> 00:34:51.760 insecurity 587 00:34:53.260 --> 00:34:54.700 and unsafety 588 00:34:56.180 --> 00:34:57.720 as Bauman observes 589 00:34:57.720 --> 00:34:59.900 the peculiar thing about this trio 590 00:34:59.900 --> 00:35:00.500 is that it is not just about 591 00:35:00.500 --> 00:35:02.920 the nature of these troubles 592 00:35:02.920 --> 00:35:05.520 itself works against collective remedies 593 00:35:07.200 --> 00:35:10.400 collective action means taking risks 594 00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:11.560 or innovating 595 00:35:12.520 --> 00:35:16.300 we do not however need categorically 596 00:35:16.300 --> 00:35:17.380 to be safe 597 00:35:17.380 --> 00:35:19.720 only to be safe enough to go on 598 00:35:21.420 --> 00:35:24.920 we need a modicum of practical purpose 599 00:35:24.920 --> 00:35:26.100 or stability 600 00:35:26.100 --> 00:35:28.220 in order to go on 601 00:35:28.220 --> 00:35:30.340 we need a modicum of practical purpose 602 00:35:30.340 --> 00:35:30.480 we need a modicum of practical purpose 603 00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:32.380 though this also needs to be balanced 604 00:35:32.380 --> 00:35:34.120 against the modern 605 00:35:34.120 --> 00:35:36.080 or the modernist mania for certainty 606 00:35:36.080 --> 00:35:38.080 which would be the end of us 607 00:35:38.080 --> 00:35:41.360 as an intellectual orientation 608 00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:44.540 we probably still have something to learn 609 00:35:44.540 --> 00:35:45.700 from America 610 00:35:45.700 --> 00:35:48.860 we probably still have something to learn 611 00:35:48.860 --> 00:35:50.540 from America's only 612 00:35:50.540 --> 00:35:52.540 larger philosophical 613 00:35:52.540 --> 00:35:53.720 tradition 614 00:35:54.980 --> 00:35:55.740 pragmatism 615 00:35:57.100 --> 00:35:58.720 probably humans need 616 00:35:58.720 --> 00:36:00.100 hope in this process 617 00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:03.000 but not even a lot of it 618 00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:04.500 a little hope 619 00:36:04.500 --> 00:36:06.100 goes a long way 620 00:36:07.180 --> 00:36:08.680 an alternative approach 621 00:36:08.680 --> 00:36:10.660 would be to work on the sense 622 00:36:10.660 --> 00:36:12.620 of our accidental nature 623 00:36:12.620 --> 00:36:13.820 or identity 624 00:36:14.440 --> 00:36:15.640 being thrown together 625 00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:17.100 by world history 626 00:36:17.700 --> 00:36:18.980 as well as by empire 627 00:36:20.120 --> 00:36:21.800 we know that we can do better 628 00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:23.700 thank you 629 00:36:28.680 --> 00:36:30.240 I don't know whether 630 00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:32.100 Max Kolthart will in fact take up 631 00:36:32.100 --> 00:36:33.740 Peter's questions now but certainly later 632 00:36:33.740 --> 00:36:35.260 but please welcome Max Kolthart 633 00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:42.140 thank you Peter I'd like to take them up later 634 00:36:42.140 --> 00:36:43.060 but to talk about something 635 00:36:43.900 --> 00:36:44.780 different now 636 00:36:45.520 --> 00:36:48.120 I'm a scientist and most of my work is done with people 637 00:36:48.120 --> 00:36:50.020 who have impairments of 638 00:36:50.020 --> 00:36:51.840 cognition after brain damage 639 00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:54.020 difficulty in reading or speaking 640 00:36:54.020 --> 00:36:56.240 or understanding words 641 00:36:56.240 --> 00:36:58.420 or remembering or recognising 642 00:36:58.420 --> 00:37:00.460 faces and I also work with 643 00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:02.600 people who have mental impairments 644 00:37:02.600 --> 00:37:04.020 such as delusions or hallucinations 645 00:37:05.060 --> 00:37:06.360 but I have to admit 646 00:37:06.360 --> 00:37:07.880 one thing which will surprise you greatly 647 00:37:07.880 --> 00:37:10.400 we don't work on how to help 648 00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:10.900 these people 649 00:37:10.900 --> 00:37:13.320 these people are volunteers for science 650 00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:14.800 they know that they're working with us 651 00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:17.700 so that our research with them 652 00:37:17.700 --> 00:37:20.220 will help us understand the normal processes 653 00:37:20.220 --> 00:37:21.480 of language, memory 654 00:37:21.480 --> 00:37:23.800 or perception or belief 655 00:37:23.800 --> 00:37:26.280 so they accept that 656 00:37:26.280 --> 00:37:28.080 they are helping science rather than 657 00:37:28.080 --> 00:37:30.020 being helped themselves and it's important 658 00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:31.940 to think about that because I'll talk about 659 00:37:32.480 --> 00:37:34.520 hopes and fears by telling you about 660 00:37:34.520 --> 00:37:36.460 two of the people that we've worked with 661 00:37:36.460 --> 00:37:38.480 the first is a man 662 00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:40.400 called Sean McArdle who's been 663 00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:42.520 schizophrenic since he was 8 years old 664 00:37:42.520 --> 00:37:43.820 he's 51 years old now 665 00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:45.920 I asked him last week whether I 666 00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:48.120 could have permission to 667 00:37:48.120 --> 00:37:50.180 tell you about him and he said yes and don't 668 00:37:50.180 --> 00:37:52.120 forget to tell them what my name is 669 00:37:53.720 --> 00:37:54.400 young people 670 00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:56.180 who become schizophrenic often become 671 00:37:56.180 --> 00:37:58.160 schizophrenic because of some stressful 672 00:37:58.160 --> 00:38:00.460 resultant event in their life 673 00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:02.360 that doesn't always happen but it 674 00:38:02.360 --> 00:38:04.340 happened with him, he was in the playground 675 00:38:04.340 --> 00:38:06.540 when he was 8 and he saw 676 00:38:06.540 --> 00:38:08.140 a friend of his killed accidentally 677 00:38:08.140 --> 00:38:10.460 in front of him and since 678 00:38:10.460 --> 00:38:12.560 then he's been a person with schizophrenia 679 00:38:13.500 --> 00:38:14.400 that wasn't easy 680 00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:16.240 growing up in a small town in Ireland where 681 00:38:16.240 --> 00:38:17.920 nobody had heard of the word schizophrenia 682 00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:19.640 or delusion or hallucination 683 00:38:20.820 --> 00:38:22.400 he's been living in Australia since he's 684 00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:24.460 20, he's a subject in all our 685 00:38:24.460 --> 00:38:26.120 experiments on schizophrenia 686 00:38:26.660 --> 00:38:28.480 he has hallucinations all the 687 00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:28.700 time 688 00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:32.300 he's not medicated for two reasons 689 00:38:32.300 --> 00:38:34.060 the first reason is that he did have a 690 00:38:34.060 --> 00:38:36.320 period when he was very bad in his 30s 691 00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:38.260 and was put on medication and 692 00:38:38.260 --> 00:38:40.140 like some people with schizophrenia responded 693 00:38:40.140 --> 00:38:41.580 very badly to it 694 00:38:41.580 --> 00:38:44.480 these are strong drugs and he nearly died 695 00:38:45.680 --> 00:38:46.240 so 696 00:38:46.240 --> 00:38:48.200 that's what he's like, he's 51 years old 697 00:38:48.200 --> 00:38:50.600 he takes part in our experiments 698 00:38:50.600 --> 00:38:52.400 he has hallucinations all the 699 00:38:52.400 --> 00:38:53.960 time and they're invaluable 700 00:38:54.620 --> 00:38:56.600 because he's learnt to distance 701 00:38:56.600 --> 00:38:58.200 himself from the hallucinations 702 00:38:58.200 --> 00:39:00.400 with the help of his wife and 703 00:39:00.480 --> 00:39:02.160 some help from us so he knows 704 00:39:02.160 --> 00:39:04.380 that these voices that are speaking to him 705 00:39:04.380 --> 00:39:06.440 are voices, they're not 706 00:39:06.440 --> 00:39:08.440 part of him, he thinks of them 707 00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:10.400 as part of his personality but they're 708 00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:12.420 not part of him and so he has no reason 709 00:39:12.420 --> 00:39:14.260 to obey them or even 710 00:39:14.260 --> 00:39:15.660 to be feared by them 711 00:39:17.240 --> 00:39:18.540 most people with schizophrenia 712 00:39:18.540 --> 00:39:19.920 who hear voices 713 00:39:20.700 --> 00:39:22.340 report that the voices are hostile 714 00:39:22.340 --> 00:39:24.360 or dangerous and that's the case 715 00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:25.980 with him so 716 00:39:25.980 --> 00:39:27.900 a few weeks ago he was 717 00:39:28.760 --> 00:39:30.020 clipping a tree 718 00:39:30.480 --> 00:39:32.560 in his garden on the top 719 00:39:32.560 --> 00:39:33.980 of a ladder and the voice said to him 720 00:39:33.980 --> 00:39:36.420 the ladder's going to break and you're 721 00:39:36.420 --> 00:39:38.100 going to fall down and you'll be 722 00:39:38.100 --> 00:39:39.800 stabbed through the chest with the clippers 723 00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:42.220 he knew this was just the voices 724 00:39:42.220 --> 00:39:44.520 a few weeks before that 725 00:39:44.520 --> 00:39:45.580 the voices had told him 726 00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:47.600 as he was mowing the lawn 727 00:39:48.120 --> 00:39:50.460 why don't you cut the electric cord 728 00:39:50.460 --> 00:39:51.640 of the lawn mower with the clippers 729 00:39:52.560 --> 00:39:54.000 he knew that was just the voices 730 00:39:54.600 --> 00:39:56.560 some people with schizophrenia don't know that 731 00:39:56.560 --> 00:39:58.080 and they do these things 732 00:39:58.940 --> 00:40:00.380 and that leads to their 733 00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:00.680 death 734 00:40:01.840 --> 00:40:03.740 so there is Sean 735 00:40:03.740 --> 00:40:06.200 a person who's been able to cope with his schizophrenia 736 00:40:06.880 --> 00:40:08.300 not by making the 737 00:40:08.300 --> 00:40:10.220 hallucinations go away but by 738 00:40:10.220 --> 00:40:12.360 distancing himself from them 739 00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:14.460 he's done this partly because 740 00:40:14.460 --> 00:40:16.280 of the efforts of his wife who 741 00:40:16.280 --> 00:40:18.140 is able to reinforce 742 00:40:18.940 --> 00:40:20.240 the correct belief 743 00:40:20.240 --> 00:40:21.940 that these are just voices 744 00:40:21.940 --> 00:40:24.380 they're not real, you can't make the voices 745 00:40:24.380 --> 00:40:26.620 go away but you can make the person 746 00:40:26.620 --> 00:40:28.120 judge that they're not real 747 00:40:28.120 --> 00:40:30.100 and so not obey them 748 00:40:31.480 --> 00:40:32.500 so Sean 749 00:40:32.500 --> 00:40:33.840 is a person whose 750 00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:36.380 hallucinations won't go away but who 751 00:40:36.380 --> 00:40:38.500 has been able 752 00:40:38.500 --> 00:40:39.840 to distance himself from them 753 00:40:40.480 --> 00:40:42.620 he's a man with a centenary medal like me 754 00:40:42.620 --> 00:40:44.440 but unlike me he also has 755 00:40:44.440 --> 00:40:46.360 the Order of Australia and so has his wife 756 00:40:46.360 --> 00:40:47.940 for services to schizophrenia 757 00:40:48.480 --> 00:40:50.320 he and his wife go around the country 758 00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:52.160 talking to audiences like you 759 00:40:52.160 --> 00:40:53.620 to rotary clubs 760 00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:56.300 to schools, to universities saying 761 00:40:56.300 --> 00:40:58.240 this is what it's like to have schizophrenia 762 00:40:58.240 --> 00:41:00.220 and this is what you can do about it 763 00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:01.320 to stop hallucinations 764 00:41:03.440 --> 00:41:04.860 so that's Sean 765 00:41:04.860 --> 00:41:06.540 a person who is still 766 00:41:06.540 --> 00:41:07.640 hallucinating all the time 767 00:41:07.640 --> 00:41:09.920 but who can distance himself from them 768 00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:12.200 and can provide 769 00:41:12.200 --> 00:41:14.380 a valuable source of research information 770 00:41:14.380 --> 00:41:16.100 about what it's like 771 00:41:16.100 --> 00:41:18.140 to be a hallucinator 772 00:41:19.580 --> 00:41:20.400 I don't know 773 00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:22.320 if any of you have read the book A Beautiful Mind 774 00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:23.900 I read it the night before 775 00:41:23.900 --> 00:41:26.460 I was going to appear on the 7.30 report 776 00:41:26.460 --> 00:41:27.340 with Sean 777 00:41:27.340 --> 00:41:30.360 so that I could tell the public don't go and read this book 778 00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:31.740 because it's just another of the 779 00:41:32.660 --> 00:41:34.500 nonsensical descriptions of what it's like 780 00:41:34.500 --> 00:41:36.200 to be schizophrenic, not so 781 00:41:36.200 --> 00:41:38.420 the book is wonderful and the film 782 00:41:38.420 --> 00:41:40.040 is even better because 783 00:41:40.600 --> 00:41:42.040 as Sean described to me 784 00:41:42.040 --> 00:41:44.580 the experience depicted in the film 785 00:41:44.580 --> 00:41:46.200 is just like his experience 786 00:41:46.200 --> 00:41:48.340 John Nash, a Nobel Prize winner 787 00:41:48.340 --> 00:41:50.360 in economics and a long term 788 00:41:50.360 --> 00:41:52.020 schizophrenic had 789 00:41:52.020 --> 00:41:53.080 hallucinatory companions 790 00:41:53.720 --> 00:41:56.000 and in the book, in the film rather 791 00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:58.120 he describes suddenly realising 792 00:41:58.120 --> 00:41:59.740 that this eight year old girl 793 00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:01.900 that he'd been hallucinating for twenty years 794 00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:03.480 must be a hallucination 795 00:42:04.120 --> 00:42:05.520 because she's still only eight 796 00:42:05.520 --> 00:42:07.620 and he's known her for twenty years 797 00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:10.220 that didn't make the hallucination go away 798 00:42:10.220 --> 00:42:12.040 but it made him realise 799 00:42:12.040 --> 00:42:13.420 that it was a hallucination 800 00:42:13.940 --> 00:42:15.760 just as Sean has been able to do 801 00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:17.340 with his constant voices 802 00:42:18.860 --> 00:42:20.160 so that's the first person 803 00:42:20.160 --> 00:42:21.660 the second person is called Q.M. 804 00:42:21.700 --> 00:42:23.000 those aren't his real initials 805 00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:25.400 he was an academic 806 00:42:25.400 --> 00:42:27.440 in a department of literature 807 00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:28.600 in an Australian university 808 00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:31.160 he wrote a major biography 809 00:42:31.160 --> 00:42:34.720 of a major living literary figure 810 00:42:34.720 --> 00:42:36.460 in Australia when he had a very bad 811 00:42:36.460 --> 00:42:38.040 left hemisphere stroke 812 00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:41.020 language is located in the left hemisphere 813 00:42:41.700 --> 00:42:42.560 and so 814 00:42:42.560 --> 00:42:44.180 his language was affected 815 00:42:44.180 --> 00:42:46.100 but only reading and writing 816 00:42:46.100 --> 00:42:47.860 his spoken language remained 817 00:42:48.600 --> 00:42:49.720 better than mine 818 00:42:49.720 --> 00:42:52.240 an eloquent, rather pedantic speaker 819 00:42:52.840 --> 00:42:54.140 he had a few other 820 00:42:54.140 --> 00:42:55.520 different kind of difficulties 821 00:42:55.520 --> 00:42:57.880 he was partly paralysed on the right hand side 822 00:42:57.880 --> 00:42:59.940 because the left half of the brain controls 823 00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:00.600 the right side 824 00:43:00.600 --> 00:43:02.300 he had some memory problems 825 00:43:02.300 --> 00:43:03.380 various other things 826 00:43:03.380 --> 00:43:05.740 but of course he didn't care about any of that 827 00:43:05.740 --> 00:43:07.780 all he cared about was the reading problem 828 00:43:07.780 --> 00:43:09.240 that was his life 829 00:43:09.240 --> 00:43:10.880 reading and writing 830 00:43:11.900 --> 00:43:13.800 especially since he was in the middle of reading 831 00:43:13.800 --> 00:43:15.240 all the works of this 832 00:43:16.520 --> 00:43:18.400 major Australian literary figure 833 00:43:20.200 --> 00:43:21.720 we did some research 834 00:43:21.720 --> 00:43:23.160 on the nature of his reading disorder 835 00:43:23.160 --> 00:43:25.000 and it turned out to be the most remarkable 836 00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:26.760 reading disorder I've ever seen 837 00:43:27.340 --> 00:43:29.360 he could read a word like hippopotamus 838 00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:32.120 but when you gave him a word like cats 839 00:43:32.120 --> 00:43:34.780 he'd say well it could be cat 840 00:43:34.780 --> 00:43:36.420 or it could be cats 841 00:43:36.420 --> 00:43:37.740 I don't know which 842 00:43:38.660 --> 00:43:40.860 so he can read the S in hippopotamus 843 00:43:40.860 --> 00:43:43.120 but not the S in cats 844 00:43:44.760 --> 00:43:46.780 what's the difference between the S in cats 845 00:43:46.780 --> 00:43:48.560 and the S in hippopotamus 846 00:43:49.400 --> 00:43:50.560 the S in cats 847 00:43:50.560 --> 00:43:51.940 is a grammatical ending 848 00:43:51.940 --> 00:43:53.260 indicating the plural 849 00:43:53.820 --> 00:43:55.600 the S in hippopotamus isn't 850 00:43:56.340 --> 00:43:58.260 his reading problem was confined 851 00:43:58.260 --> 00:44:00.460 to reading grammatical endings 852 00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:03.640 so if you give him a word like dancer 853 00:44:03.640 --> 00:44:04.820 and dancing 854 00:44:04.820 --> 00:44:06.260 and show him those two words 855 00:44:06.260 --> 00:44:07.780 and say which one's the person 856 00:44:07.780 --> 00:44:09.140 and which one's the activity 857 00:44:09.700 --> 00:44:11.120 he was not able to do that 858 00:44:11.120 --> 00:44:13.320 he could say it's to do with dance 859 00:44:13.320 --> 00:44:14.760 but I don't know which one's dancer 860 00:44:14.760 --> 00:44:15.740 and which one's dancing 861 00:44:17.340 --> 00:44:19.080 imagine you're reading serious literature 862 00:44:19.740 --> 00:44:21.240 and you can't tell the difference 863 00:44:21.240 --> 00:44:24.180 between dancer, dancing and dancers 864 00:44:24.180 --> 00:44:26.060 you would not be able to understand 865 00:44:26.060 --> 00:44:27.400 anything that you could read 866 00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:29.700 so that's all he cared about 867 00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:32.440 and so we did do some work 868 00:44:32.440 --> 00:44:34.420 on trying to 869 00:44:34.420 --> 00:44:35.900 treat this disorder 870 00:44:36.480 --> 00:44:37.300 and I was hopeful 871 00:44:38.320 --> 00:44:40.100 because we understood the reading disorder 872 00:44:40.100 --> 00:44:42.640 so well we knew exactly what he couldn't do 873 00:44:42.640 --> 00:44:44.120 he couldn't appreciate 874 00:44:44.120 --> 00:44:45.740 the ends of words 875 00:44:45.740 --> 00:44:47.160 if there are grammatical endings 876 00:44:47.160 --> 00:44:49.720 so he spent a long time trying 877 00:44:49.720 --> 00:44:52.340 to retrain with complete 878 00:44:52.340 --> 00:44:53.140 lack of success 879 00:44:54.700 --> 00:44:56.380 we could explain this to him 880 00:44:56.380 --> 00:44:57.480 indeed 881 00:44:57.480 --> 00:45:00.140 I wasn't quite clear about the difference between 882 00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:01.560 two kinds of grammatical endings 883 00:45:02.620 --> 00:45:03.580 derivational morphology 884 00:45:03.580 --> 00:45:05.320 and inflectional morphology 885 00:45:05.320 --> 00:45:07.860 he explained the difference to me 886 00:45:08.480 --> 00:45:09.220 so we did some work 887 00:45:10.420 --> 00:45:12.940 on whether he could read derivational endings 888 00:45:12.940 --> 00:45:14.760 versus inflectional endings 889 00:45:14.760 --> 00:45:15.900 and he said yes that'll be interesting 890 00:45:15.900 --> 00:45:18.260 I wonder whether I'll be able to do one or the other 891 00:45:18.260 --> 00:45:20.180 he couldn't do either of those 892 00:45:20.180 --> 00:45:21.440 so cats 893 00:45:22.380 --> 00:45:23.320 runs is 894 00:45:25.580 --> 00:45:26.400 inflectional and running 895 00:45:26.400 --> 00:45:27.100 is derivational 896 00:45:27.100 --> 00:45:30.460 so we had to explain 897 00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:31.880 to him that we've 898 00:45:32.600 --> 00:45:34.300 known a lot about this kind of work 899 00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:35.720 we've 900 00:45:35.720 --> 00:45:38.520 done some work on training of reading disorders 901 00:45:38.520 --> 00:45:40.520 we know exactly what's wrong with his 902 00:45:40.520 --> 00:45:42.680 reading disorder but we couldn't do anything about it 903 00:45:42.680 --> 00:45:43.680 he found that 904 00:45:44.720 --> 00:45:45.780 impossible to accept 905 00:45:46.540 --> 00:45:48.580 he moved to a different town 906 00:45:48.580 --> 00:45:50.360 and he spent a lot of time 907 00:45:50.360 --> 00:45:52.180 trying to find people who could 908 00:45:52.180 --> 00:45:53.320 help him with his reading 909 00:45:53.320 --> 00:45:54.600 he didn't care about his paralysis 910 00:45:54.600 --> 00:45:56.420 he didn't care about his memory 911 00:45:56.420 --> 00:45:59.560 he just cared about his reading which turned out to be untreatable 912 00:46:00.860 --> 00:46:02.300 so you can see where the hopes 913 00:46:02.300 --> 00:46:03.600 and fears are there 914 00:46:04.640 --> 00:46:06.420 and I sometimes think that 915 00:46:06.420 --> 00:46:08.060 since all my work involves 916 00:46:08.060 --> 00:46:10.360 reading and writing and all my 917 00:46:10.360 --> 00:46:12.260 recreation apart from watching 918 00:46:12.260 --> 00:46:14.200 the world cup tonight on television is 919 00:46:14.200 --> 00:46:15.460 reading and writing 920 00:46:15.460 --> 00:46:18.300 what if I had a stroke that just affected my 921 00:46:18.300 --> 00:46:19.560 reading and writing what would happen 922 00:46:19.560 --> 00:46:21.700 the first thing that would happen would be 923 00:46:21.700 --> 00:46:24.420 since everybody in the world has done good work 924 00:46:24.420 --> 00:46:26.520 on treating reading and writing 925 00:46:26.520 --> 00:46:28.500 after brain damage actually happens to be 926 00:46:28.500 --> 00:46:30.460 a friend of mine they'd like to know 927 00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:30.560 how to treat it 928 00:46:30.560 --> 00:46:31.020 and they'd all be recruited 929 00:46:31.020 --> 00:46:32.600 I know that's what my wife would do 930 00:46:32.600 --> 00:46:35.260 and so I would get the best possible treatment 931 00:46:35.740 --> 00:46:37.080 but suppose it didn't work 932 00:46:38.560 --> 00:46:40.560 what would I do could I be like Sean 933 00:46:41.300 --> 00:46:43.360 and just accept that from now on 934 00:46:43.360 --> 00:46:45.420 I'm not going to be a reader or a writer 935 00:46:45.860 --> 00:46:47.300 or would I be like QM 936 00:46:47.300 --> 00:46:48.840 unable to accept that 937 00:46:50.200 --> 00:46:52.420 I'm not sure I meant to expose quite my hopes 938 00:46:52.420 --> 00:46:53.480 and fears in that way 939 00:46:53.480 --> 00:46:55.600 but it just came out 940 00:46:55.600 --> 00:46:56.200 thank you 941 00:47:01.680 --> 00:47:02.600 applause 942 00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:04.920 applause 943 00:47:04.920 --> 00:47:06.300 applause 944 00:47:06.300 --> 00:47:09.540 we should keep you in a box Max 945 00:47:09.540 --> 00:47:11.800 and make sure nothing ever happens to you 946 00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:13.920 Stephanie Darick 947 00:47:14.480 --> 00:47:15.500 applause 948 00:47:16.480 --> 00:47:17.180 applause 949 00:47:17.180 --> 00:47:18.220 applause 950 00:47:18.220 --> 00:47:19.880 applause 951 00:47:19.880 --> 00:47:24.480 one of the most accurate mirrorings 952 00:47:25.060 --> 00:47:25.640 of the 953 00:47:26.480 --> 00:47:27.860 experience of hope 954 00:47:27.860 --> 00:47:29.920 and fear of course 955 00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:31.640 occurs in our bodies 956 00:47:32.540 --> 00:47:33.880 when we are fearful 957 00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:36.020 we literally contract 958 00:47:36.700 --> 00:47:38.660 we pull in we pull away 959 00:47:38.660 --> 00:47:40.580 we pull away from the other in a sense 960 00:47:40.580 --> 00:47:42.500 in a quite crucial sense 961 00:47:42.500 --> 00:47:44.360 we also pull away from ourselves 962 00:47:45.200 --> 00:47:46.220 so let's suppose 963 00:47:46.220 --> 00:47:46.960 for example 964 00:47:48.120 --> 00:47:50.320 this anecdote comes to mind because 965 00:47:50.320 --> 00:47:52.280 I have a couple of adolescent children 966 00:47:52.900 --> 00:47:54.420 let's suppose one of your 967 00:47:54.420 --> 00:47:56.360 adolescent children is out much later 968 00:47:56.360 --> 00:47:57.700 than he or she should be 969 00:47:58.300 --> 00:47:59.520 much much later 970 00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:01.560 and you're beginning to be fearful 971 00:48:01.560 --> 00:48:04.840 and you go through your patter of reassuring yourself 972 00:48:05.380 --> 00:48:07.340 but somehow you are not reassured 973 00:48:08.440 --> 00:48:09.520 you'd like to be asleep 974 00:48:09.520 --> 00:48:10.700 but you're not asleep 975 00:48:10.700 --> 00:48:12.440 you're wide awake and you're worrying 976 00:48:12.440 --> 00:48:13.860 and you're full of fear 977 00:48:14.340 --> 00:48:16.480 and through your mind come a lot of pictures 978 00:48:16.980 --> 00:48:18.420 all sorts of awful things 979 00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:20.860 that may or may not be happening 980 00:48:20.860 --> 00:48:22.440 to your child at this very moment 981 00:48:22.440 --> 00:48:24.400 why because you let them go out 982 00:48:26.140 --> 00:48:27.500 and then the person rings 983 00:48:27.500 --> 00:48:29.260 or perhaps that you hear the door 984 00:48:29.260 --> 00:48:30.300 and they're home 985 00:48:31.200 --> 00:48:31.740 now 986 00:48:31.740 --> 00:48:34.140 what you experience in that moment 987 00:48:34.140 --> 00:48:36.980 is not just relief in your mind 988 00:48:36.980 --> 00:48:38.100 you also experience 989 00:48:38.100 --> 00:48:39.800 relief in your body 990 00:48:39.800 --> 00:48:41.940 a second later of course you may be angry with them 991 00:48:41.940 --> 00:48:42.780 but that's another matter 992 00:48:43.600 --> 00:48:45.040 that's a very different emotion 993 00:48:46.360 --> 00:48:48.400 now I think that if we take this 994 00:48:49.220 --> 00:48:50.300 physical manifestation 995 00:48:50.300 --> 00:48:52.020 of hope and fear seriously 996 00:48:52.020 --> 00:48:54.320 we'll see also what we're doing 997 00:48:54.320 --> 00:48:55.780 on the larger scale 998 00:48:56.580 --> 00:48:57.880 that when we're hopeful 999 00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:00.180 we remain open to one another 1000 00:49:00.840 --> 00:49:02.000 and of course 1001 00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:03.800 not entirely paradoxically 1002 00:49:03.800 --> 00:49:05.680 that keeps us much safer 1003 00:49:05.680 --> 00:49:06.980 than when we contract 1004 00:49:08.020 --> 00:49:09.560 and pull away 1005 00:49:10.480 --> 00:49:11.260 from one another 1006 00:49:11.260 --> 00:49:13.820 there was a very wise teacher 1007 00:49:13.820 --> 00:49:16.580 a long time ago called Gregory of Nyssa 1008 00:49:16.580 --> 00:49:18.420 who said that there are 1009 00:49:18.420 --> 00:49:20.280 three ladders 1010 00:49:20.280 --> 00:49:22.500 three rungs on the ladder 1011 00:49:22.500 --> 00:49:23.060 of spirituality 1012 00:49:24.360 --> 00:49:25.900 on the lowest rung 1013 00:49:25.900 --> 00:49:27.200 is fear of God 1014 00:49:28.780 --> 00:49:30.280 on the second rung 1015 00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:32.120 is hope of divine reward 1016 00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:34.940 and on the third rung 1017 00:49:34.940 --> 00:49:36.600 is friendship with God 1018 00:49:36.600 --> 00:49:39.260 and I think we can see 1019 00:49:39.260 --> 00:49:40.340 that this is a very 1020 00:49:40.340 --> 00:49:42.780 interesting psychological comment 1021 00:49:42.780 --> 00:49:44.280 also I think it's a 1022 00:49:44.280 --> 00:49:46.220 true spiritual statement 1023 00:49:46.220 --> 00:49:48.860 and we move between those states 1024 00:49:48.860 --> 00:49:50.820 in our relationship to the presence 1025 00:49:50.820 --> 00:49:51.800 or absence of God 1026 00:49:51.800 --> 00:49:53.460 as we experience it 1027 00:49:53.460 --> 00:49:56.480 but I think it's also a very interesting psychological statement 1028 00:49:58.260 --> 00:49:59.760 that what drives 1029 00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:00.460 the spiritual state 1030 00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:02.280 so much of our 1031 00:50:02.280 --> 00:50:03.500 fear 1032 00:50:04.660 --> 00:50:05.460 is 1033 00:50:06.480 --> 00:50:07.820 the absolute fear 1034 00:50:07.820 --> 00:50:09.280 that there is either 1035 00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:12.100 no meaning or no purpose 1036 00:50:12.100 --> 00:50:13.480 or no connection 1037 00:50:13.480 --> 00:50:14.780 or no God 1038 00:50:16.560 --> 00:50:18.420 then we maybe 1039 00:50:18.420 --> 00:50:19.660 move up one rung 1040 00:50:20.480 --> 00:50:22.340 and we hope for something 1041 00:50:22.340 --> 00:50:24.500 good to come to us 1042 00:50:25.720 --> 00:50:27.040 Joseph Campbell 1043 00:50:27.040 --> 00:50:27.940 whom some of you know 1044 00:50:27.940 --> 00:50:29.700 I'm rather a devotee of 1045 00:50:30.480 --> 00:50:30.980 the Christian Church 1046 00:50:30.980 --> 00:50:32.940 if you're still hoping that good things happen to you 1047 00:50:32.940 --> 00:50:34.000 because you're a good person 1048 00:50:34.000 --> 00:50:35.720 and you have reached middle age 1049 00:50:35.720 --> 00:50:36.940 then you are regressed 1050 00:50:39.440 --> 00:50:41.200 so we won't necessarily 1051 00:50:41.200 --> 00:50:43.620 just hope that good things happen to us 1052 00:50:43.620 --> 00:50:44.580 because we're good people 1053 00:50:44.580 --> 00:50:45.680 but nevertheless 1054 00:50:45.680 --> 00:50:47.680 I think it's a very legitimate thing 1055 00:50:47.680 --> 00:50:49.680 to hope that good things happen 1056 00:50:50.540 --> 00:50:53.300 but perhaps it's not quite so helpful 1057 00:50:53.300 --> 00:50:56.400 to hope that they only happen from outside ourselves 1058 00:50:56.400 --> 00:50:59.080 I think the more helpful thing 1059 00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:02.020 is that we can also influence 1060 00:51:02.020 --> 00:51:04.600 just through simple moments of kindness 1061 00:51:04.600 --> 00:51:06.500 and that that reward 1062 00:51:06.500 --> 00:51:07.840 the kingdom of heaven is now 1063 00:51:07.840 --> 00:51:09.400 that's the reward in a sense 1064 00:51:09.400 --> 00:51:12.060 the hope that we can be kind 1065 00:51:12.060 --> 00:51:13.020 to one another 1066 00:51:13.020 --> 00:51:14.760 kind to ourselves 1067 00:51:14.760 --> 00:51:16.540 and in that crucial way 1068 00:51:16.540 --> 00:51:18.760 remain connected to ourselves 1069 00:51:19.540 --> 00:51:22.340 and if we take that third ladder seriously 1070 00:51:22.340 --> 00:51:23.600 friendship 1071 00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:25.120 then we have 1072 00:51:25.120 --> 00:51:27.500 a picture of something that 1073 00:51:28.280 --> 00:51:29.880 is in a sense 1074 00:51:30.480 --> 00:51:31.320 tremendously relaxed 1075 00:51:32.480 --> 00:51:34.560 I think Ghassan Hajj 1076 00:51:34.560 --> 00:51:36.240 said it so beautifully when he said 1077 00:51:36.240 --> 00:51:38.140 that if we are genuinely hopeful 1078 00:51:38.140 --> 00:51:40.140 we don't need to hope too vigorously 1079 00:51:41.360 --> 00:51:42.280 if we 1080 00:51:42.280 --> 00:51:43.740 trust a friend 1081 00:51:44.480 --> 00:51:46.420 and if we can extend the hand of 1082 00:51:46.420 --> 00:51:47.720 friendship to other people 1083 00:51:47.720 --> 00:51:48.980 then we are trusting 1084 00:51:48.980 --> 00:51:51.180 that in itself is very hopeful 1085 00:51:51.180 --> 00:51:54.020 and of course that in itself is an expression 1086 00:51:54.840 --> 00:51:56.160 of love 1087 00:51:59.120 --> 00:52:00.220 one last 1088 00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:02.300 thing because there is going to be time 1089 00:52:02.300 --> 00:52:02.900 for questions 1090 00:52:04.980 --> 00:52:06.380 if we 1091 00:52:06.380 --> 00:52:08.120 could understand each other 1092 00:52:08.120 --> 00:52:10.300 well enough to keep 1093 00:52:10.300 --> 00:52:12.420 each other safe we would 1094 00:52:12.420 --> 00:52:13.840 live in a different world 1095 00:52:14.820 --> 00:52:16.380 we have heard 1096 00:52:16.380 --> 00:52:18.360 a lot over these last 1097 00:52:18.360 --> 00:52:19.980 few days about particular 1098 00:52:19.980 --> 00:52:21.380 politicians or 1099 00:52:22.480 --> 00:52:24.180 particular ideologies or 1100 00:52:24.180 --> 00:52:25.940 particular fundamentalisms 1101 00:52:26.480 --> 00:52:27.840 and that's fine 1102 00:52:28.480 --> 00:52:30.340 but those people belong to us 1103 00:52:30.480 --> 00:52:31.540 and we belong to them 1104 00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:34.220 in a sense and in a very 1105 00:52:35.040 --> 00:52:36.080 real sense 1106 00:52:36.080 --> 00:52:38.340 we also have to 1107 00:52:38.340 --> 00:52:40.340 pay attention in a 1108 00:52:40.340 --> 00:52:42.460 very moment by moment 1109 00:52:42.460 --> 00:52:44.220 way on what 1110 00:52:44.220 --> 00:52:46.300 we are doing in the sense 1111 00:52:46.300 --> 00:52:48.040 of the creation of our shared 1112 00:52:48.040 --> 00:52:50.380 social existence and I want 1113 00:52:50.380 --> 00:52:52.180 to end with a tiny little verse from 1114 00:52:52.180 --> 00:52:54.340 Kabir who is a great Sufi poet 1115 00:52:54.340 --> 00:52:56.260 here is Kabir's idea 1116 00:52:56.260 --> 00:52:58.340 he says as he introduces his 1117 00:52:58.340 --> 00:53:00.160 line here is Kabir's 1118 00:53:00.480 --> 00:53:00.680 idea 1119 00:53:00.680 --> 00:53:04.240 as the river gives itself into 1120 00:53:04.240 --> 00:53:06.500 the ocean what is inside 1121 00:53:06.500 --> 00:53:08.100 me also moves 1122 00:53:08.100 --> 00:53:10.180 inside you thank you 1123 00:53:18.100 --> 00:53:20.520 thank you all six of you 1124 00:53:20.520 --> 00:53:21.620 can I just ask 1125 00:53:21.620 --> 00:53:24.100 all of you a very simple 1126 00:53:24.100 --> 00:53:26.100 question how 1127 00:53:26.100 --> 00:53:28.000 much fear can we tolerate 1128 00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:30.100 Joanna in democratic nations 1129 00:53:30.480 --> 00:53:31.780 at the moment fear is 1130 00:53:32.480 --> 00:53:34.020 well everywhere but particularly in our democratic 1131 00:53:34.020 --> 00:53:36.100 nation states I'm thinking of fear is 1132 00:53:36.100 --> 00:53:38.260 so routinely used as a 1133 00:53:38.260 --> 00:53:40.300 political tool at what point 1134 00:53:40.300 --> 00:53:42.440 does that start to 1135 00:53:42.440 --> 00:53:44.240 erode our notion of what democracy 1136 00:53:44.240 --> 00:53:46.320 might be sort of 1137 00:53:46.320 --> 00:53:47.900 question generally for you Vazir 1138 00:53:47.900 --> 00:53:50.160 and Max by the time we get 1139 00:53:50.160 --> 00:53:51.840 round to you how much fear 1140 00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:53.980 can we tolerate did fear 1141 00:53:54.680 --> 00:53:56.340 what role did fear play 1142 00:53:56.340 --> 00:53:58.400 in the people we are talking about but it's a general question 1143 00:53:58.400 --> 00:54:00.380 to all of you and then if you've got questions of 1144 00:54:00.480 --> 00:54:02.320 one another please feel free but Joanna 1145 00:54:02.320 --> 00:54:04.540 how much 1146 00:54:04.540 --> 00:54:05.380 fear can we tolerate 1147 00:54:08.580 --> 00:54:10.040 I take we 1148 00:54:10.040 --> 00:54:10.360 how much torture 1149 00:54:10.360 --> 00:54:12.160 can you stand is that what you're asking 1150 00:54:12.160 --> 00:54:13.700 well no 1151 00:54:13.700 --> 00:54:16.040 it was more specifically fear but 1152 00:54:16.040 --> 00:54:18.240 that's a related to some question I think 1153 00:54:18.240 --> 00:54:19.400 how much torture can you stand 1154 00:54:20.440 --> 00:54:22.480 I mean I think if we 1155 00:54:22.480 --> 00:54:24.440 means you know people in 1156 00:54:24.440 --> 00:54:26.280 wealthy western 1157 00:54:26.280 --> 00:54:28.480 democracies then I mean we haven't 1158 00:54:28.480 --> 00:54:30.440 reached anything like the sorts of 1159 00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:31.960 fear that have been 1160 00:54:32.480 --> 00:54:33.940 in the past that we've experienced 1161 00:54:33.940 --> 00:54:36.420 and also that is experienced by a good 1162 00:54:36.420 --> 00:54:37.360 proportion of the world 1163 00:54:37.360 --> 00:54:40.780 I mean we are more or less sheltered 1164 00:54:40.780 --> 00:54:42.360 from some of the worst 1165 00:54:42.360 --> 00:54:44.760 kinds of fears and anxieties 1166 00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:45.660 those are 1167 00:54:46.480 --> 00:54:48.280 when we are under attack I'm thinking about 1168 00:54:48.280 --> 00:54:49.640 during the blitz in 1169 00:54:49.640 --> 00:54:52.420 Britain and of course 1170 00:54:52.420 --> 00:54:54.280 all those fears that we are 1171 00:54:54.280 --> 00:54:55.900 imposing upon other people 1172 00:54:56.480 --> 00:54:58.420 when we blitz their cities and towns 1173 00:54:58.420 --> 00:55:00.160 so I think the fears and this 1174 00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:02.460 conference we've been talking a huge amount 1175 00:55:02.460 --> 00:55:04.340 about our fears 1176 00:55:04.340 --> 00:55:06.080 under terrorism and 1177 00:55:06.080 --> 00:55:06.740 I mean 1178 00:55:08.740 --> 00:55:10.680 blatantly but crudely 1179 00:55:10.680 --> 00:55:11.600 I think that's 1180 00:55:11.600 --> 00:55:14.200 exaggerated we can take a lot more fear 1181 00:55:14.200 --> 00:55:15.560 and I think we are going to 1182 00:55:17.100 --> 00:55:17.880 yes sir 1183 00:55:19.180 --> 00:55:20.100 what do you think 1184 00:55:20.100 --> 00:55:20.700 no 1185 00:55:21.360 --> 00:55:22.000 absolutely 1186 00:55:22.000 --> 00:55:22.940 well 1187 00:55:26.800 --> 00:55:28.080 I think 1188 00:55:29.480 --> 00:55:30.320 it's not 1189 00:55:30.480 --> 00:55:32.180 an issue of how much fear 1190 00:55:32.180 --> 00:55:33.640 we can tolerate because 1191 00:55:35.100 --> 00:55:36.240 fear can be 1192 00:55:36.240 --> 00:55:38.260 functional and we don't 1193 00:55:38.260 --> 00:55:40.260 need to tolerate it as if it's 1194 00:55:40.260 --> 00:55:42.040 something which we are coping with 1195 00:55:42.040 --> 00:55:43.920 I mean like one of the interesting things 1196 00:55:44.480 --> 00:55:46.340 about fear 1197 00:55:46.340 --> 00:55:47.420 is defensiveness 1198 00:55:48.120 --> 00:55:50.200 and the fear of 1199 00:55:50.200 --> 00:55:52.360 loss like the fear of losing 1200 00:55:52.360 --> 00:55:53.780 a good life 1201 00:55:55.200 --> 00:55:56.240 which create 1202 00:55:57.060 --> 00:55:58.260 the need 1203 00:55:58.260 --> 00:55:59.640 to defend the good life 1204 00:56:00.480 --> 00:56:02.200 and then you enter 1205 00:56:02.200 --> 00:56:04.740 a cycle of defending the good life 1206 00:56:04.740 --> 00:56:06.600 which makes you lose 1207 00:56:07.480 --> 00:56:08.680 the good life 1208 00:56:08.680 --> 00:56:10.320 which you feared 1209 00:56:10.320 --> 00:56:12.840 you were going to lose 1210 00:56:14.920 --> 00:56:16.120 and then 1211 00:56:16.120 --> 00:56:18.220 your only mode of existence 1212 00:56:18.220 --> 00:56:20.340 becomes defensiveness 1213 00:56:20.340 --> 00:56:22.380 because you've lost the good life 1214 00:56:22.380 --> 00:56:24.680 so the only thing you've got is to be defensive 1215 00:56:24.680 --> 00:56:25.660 which is 1216 00:56:25.660 --> 00:56:27.520 as many of you have guessed 1217 00:56:28.480 --> 00:56:29.980 is not is a dominant form of 1218 00:56:30.480 --> 00:56:30.620 fear 1219 00:56:30.620 --> 00:56:30.760 so 1220 00:56:42.820 --> 00:56:43.380 I think 1221 00:56:59.200 --> 00:56:59.760 that's the 1222 00:57:28.740 --> 00:57:30.140 ! 1223 00:57:04.480 --> 00:57:06.480 第 1224 00:57:30.480 --> 00:57:32.360 I think fear is a bit like pain. 1225 00:57:32.760 --> 00:57:36.040 And it's a good experiment for most people to do, 1226 00:57:36.100 --> 00:57:37.260 is to try and cut their finger. 1227 00:57:37.500 --> 00:57:40.540 And if they don't feel any pain, you cut the finger off totally. 1228 00:57:40.860 --> 00:57:43.980 But if you feel some pain, it will stop very quickly. 1229 00:57:44.200 --> 00:57:48.740 I kind of realized this when about three, four years ago 1230 00:57:48.740 --> 00:57:49.960 I had an operation for piles. 1231 00:57:52.080 --> 00:57:53.120 Don't go there. 1232 00:57:56.360 --> 00:57:58.160 There's a story, I will not go to it, 1233 00:57:58.160 --> 00:58:00.500 but I have written an essay on that called Pain. 1234 00:58:00.720 --> 00:58:02.820 It's in the A to Z of postmodern life. 1235 00:58:02.900 --> 00:58:04.160 It's about my operation with piles. 1236 00:58:05.360 --> 00:58:08.080 So fear is a good thing 1237 00:58:08.080 --> 00:58:12.360 to the extent that it gives you awareness of certain things. 1238 00:58:12.560 --> 00:58:16.000 But beyond that, it's a very destructive force. 1239 00:58:16.200 --> 00:58:19.540 And I think we need the fear so we are not apathetic. 1240 00:58:19.680 --> 00:58:22.540 We need fear so that we are not just purely cynical. 1241 00:58:22.820 --> 00:58:27.560 We need enough fear to get up and go out and shape a new future 1242 00:58:27.560 --> 00:58:28.140 and have a good life. 1243 00:58:28.160 --> 00:58:29.540 And change the world. 1244 00:58:29.640 --> 00:58:32.220 But we do not need so much fear 1245 00:58:32.220 --> 00:58:36.700 that we in fact end up in a perpetual postmodern doubt 1246 00:58:36.700 --> 00:58:40.300 not knowing which way to go, in a sense. 1247 00:58:40.480 --> 00:58:42.520 So I think it's a question of balance. 1248 00:58:42.940 --> 00:58:46.880 And maybe it's a question not so much for society as a whole, 1249 00:58:47.000 --> 00:58:48.100 but also for individuals. 1250 00:58:48.560 --> 00:58:50.680 Maybe they can answer it. 1251 00:58:50.800 --> 00:58:54.180 So I recommend that you begin by experimenting with it. 1252 00:58:56.760 --> 00:58:58.140 Stasia, I have one question. 1253 00:58:58.160 --> 00:58:58.540 I have one question for you. 1254 00:58:59.620 --> 00:59:02.300 I was just getting ready to answer that question. 1255 00:59:02.340 --> 00:59:02.940 Oh, please do. 1256 00:59:03.120 --> 00:59:04.300 No, no, ask another. 1257 00:59:05.020 --> 00:59:06.820 I was just thinking in some traditions, 1258 00:59:06.900 --> 00:59:09.420 particularly the Christian tradition, 1259 00:59:09.640 --> 00:59:12.780 hope is not an immersion, it's almost an injunction. 1260 00:59:13.840 --> 00:59:16.280 One is obliged to hope. 1261 00:59:16.460 --> 00:59:19.140 I wonder if you have some reflections on that. 1262 00:59:21.160 --> 00:59:23.940 I don't have an instant reflection on it. 1263 00:59:24.180 --> 00:59:26.900 I think that hope is part of the promise 1264 00:59:26.900 --> 00:59:28.140 of all of us. 1265 00:59:28.160 --> 00:59:29.300 I think that hope is part of the great traditions, 1266 00:59:29.360 --> 00:59:30.460 including Christianity. 1267 00:59:31.900 --> 00:59:35.040 And I think that one of the things that is often overlooked 1268 00:59:35.040 --> 00:59:36.660 in a Christian tradition 1269 00:59:36.660 --> 00:59:39.320 is that it shares something with Buddhism, 1270 00:59:39.460 --> 00:59:42.980 which is that actually the invitation 1271 00:59:42.980 --> 00:59:45.600 was to hope in the present moment 1272 00:59:45.600 --> 00:59:48.620 or to realize the hope in the present moment. 1273 00:59:48.720 --> 00:59:50.160 You know, the kingdom of God is now. 1274 00:59:50.580 --> 00:59:52.540 You know, often in a kind of 1275 00:59:55.820 --> 00:59:58.140 more storybook version of Christianity, 1276 00:59:58.140 --> 01:00:00.900 you know, we're only hoping for divine reward, 1277 01:00:01.260 --> 01:00:02.200 as I talked about. 1278 01:00:02.440 --> 01:00:05.420 But in fact, we are taught very much that 1279 01:00:05.420 --> 01:00:07.340 in that tradition as in Buddhism, 1280 01:00:08.160 --> 01:00:11.840 that we can live fully right now in this moment. 1281 01:00:12.020 --> 01:00:14.820 And often what prevents us from living fully 1282 01:00:14.820 --> 01:00:16.280 right now in this moment, 1283 01:00:16.980 --> 01:00:19.200 including Ghassan's, you know, joy, 1284 01:00:20.080 --> 01:00:23.380 is our fear of living fully right now in this moment. 1285 01:00:25.440 --> 01:00:26.540 What about America? 1286 01:00:26.700 --> 01:00:27.200 What about America? 1287 01:00:30.260 --> 01:00:33.860 Well, I would say what about America? 1288 01:00:33.940 --> 01:00:35.580 I actually take quite seriously. 1289 01:00:36.900 --> 01:00:39.520 Because we're not going to cope with America 1290 01:00:39.520 --> 01:00:42.540 or what America represents in this question, 1291 01:00:42.640 --> 01:00:44.080 as I imagine it to be. 1292 01:00:45.180 --> 01:00:49.340 We're not going to cope with that in a more intelligent way 1293 01:00:49.340 --> 01:00:51.360 because we're filled with fear. 1294 01:00:51.660 --> 01:00:54.580 We're going to cope with it in a more intelligent way 1295 01:00:54.580 --> 01:00:57.760 if we feel alive in the present moment. 1296 01:00:58.140 --> 01:01:02.380 And if we feel maybe even less hostile 1297 01:01:02.380 --> 01:01:08.780 and if we see the part that we have collectively played in this, 1298 01:01:08.900 --> 01:01:13.760 as well as the very specific role that America has played in, 1299 01:01:13.780 --> 01:01:15.540 in our human drama. 1300 01:01:17.420 --> 01:01:19.400 Peter, you had some questions at max. 1301 01:01:20.920 --> 01:01:22.440 Well, I remembered the questions. 1302 01:01:22.460 --> 01:01:23.720 Let me provide an answer. 1303 01:01:23.800 --> 01:01:24.940 This is a festival of ideas, 1304 01:01:24.980 --> 01:01:26.980 and Peter has just given me a wonderful idea. 1305 01:01:28.240 --> 01:01:31.340 Also, it's partly to do with the idea that fear and hope are intertwined. 1306 01:01:31.380 --> 01:01:33.340 You can't have fear without hope or hope without fear. 1307 01:01:33.580 --> 01:01:36.000 I can see what that means, but it's definitely not true 1308 01:01:37.480 --> 01:01:39.180 for the following reason. 1309 01:01:39.740 --> 01:01:42.100 A lot of work on the perception of emotion 1310 01:01:42.100 --> 01:01:45.940 is done by giving people pictures of faces expressing emotion 1311 01:01:45.940 --> 01:01:48.520 and having the subject judge the emotion. 1312 01:01:48.960 --> 01:01:50.700 And as the booklet mentions, 1313 01:01:51.000 --> 01:01:52.880 in one disorder, Huntington's disease, 1314 01:01:53.560 --> 01:01:54.680 people are unable to judge 1315 01:01:54.680 --> 01:01:56.900 whether faces are expressing a particular emotion, 1316 01:01:56.980 --> 01:01:57.860 namely disgust, 1317 01:01:58.140 --> 01:01:59.820 but all the other emotions are normal. 1318 01:02:00.180 --> 01:02:03.240 So in Huntington's disease, you lose that particular emotion. 1319 01:02:04.000 --> 01:02:06.260 So the test is, show various faces, 1320 01:02:06.460 --> 01:02:08.300 have people say what emotion they're expressing. 1321 01:02:08.440 --> 01:02:09.540 This is easy for us. 1322 01:02:09.640 --> 01:02:14.380 If it's anger or surprise or fear or disgust or happiness, 1323 01:02:14.520 --> 01:02:15.280 we can do it. 1324 01:02:15.660 --> 01:02:17.320 But we would not be able to judge 1325 01:02:17.320 --> 01:02:19.140 whether a face was expressing hope. 1326 01:02:19.460 --> 01:02:21.100 I don't think we could do that. 1327 01:02:21.240 --> 01:02:22.720 No one's ever done this experiment. 1328 01:02:23.200 --> 01:02:27.200 But if you can imagine what a face looks like when it's expressing hope, 1329 01:02:28.140 --> 01:02:30.280 I don't think there'd be anything distinctive about that face. 1330 01:02:31.280 --> 01:02:32.680 That's the first half of the point. 1331 01:02:32.840 --> 01:02:34.140 The second half of the point is, 1332 01:02:34.260 --> 01:02:36.300 just as in Huntington's disease, 1333 01:02:36.560 --> 01:02:38.580 you can't comprehend disgust, 1334 01:02:38.720 --> 01:02:41.660 so when you have damage to a part of the brain called the amygdala, 1335 01:02:41.820 --> 01:02:43.560 you can no longer experience fear. 1336 01:02:45.120 --> 01:02:46.920 If you're a monkey, you'll pick up a snake. 1337 01:02:47.100 --> 01:02:48.780 Monkeys are innately afraid of snakes. 1338 01:02:48.980 --> 01:02:50.620 But with the amygdala removed, 1339 01:02:50.820 --> 01:02:53.160 the monkey will pick up the snake and put it in its mouth. 1340 01:02:53.560 --> 01:02:55.560 And people who have amygdala damage 1341 01:02:56.140 --> 01:02:58.120 can't judge whether faces are expressing hope. 1342 01:02:58.140 --> 01:02:59.180 They're expressing fear or not. 1343 01:02:59.320 --> 01:03:00.840 Now, it's an empirical question 1344 01:03:00.840 --> 01:03:03.060 about whether such people can experience hope. 1345 01:03:03.480 --> 01:03:05.000 I'd be amazed if they couldn't. 1346 01:03:05.400 --> 01:03:08.920 So there you have a case of someone who can't experience fear, 1347 01:03:09.100 --> 01:03:10.500 but can experience hope. 1348 01:03:10.720 --> 01:03:11.880 All of this is empirical, 1349 01:03:12.080 --> 01:03:14.900 and we'll know the answer in the next year or so, 1350 01:03:14.960 --> 01:03:15.980 because we'll do this work. 1351 01:03:16.160 --> 01:03:18.880 So the best state for a human being is to be either monkeys 1352 01:03:18.880 --> 01:03:20.500 or to suffer from Huntington's disease? 1353 01:03:21.700 --> 01:03:22.960 No, not at all. 1354 01:03:23.120 --> 01:03:27.800 It'd be very, very dangerous to be unable to experience fear. 1355 01:03:27.900 --> 01:03:28.120 Can... 1356 01:03:28.140 --> 01:03:29.160 You'd be dead soon. 1357 01:03:29.620 --> 01:03:33.120 Can anything sensible be said which is not based on empiricism? 1358 01:03:34.860 --> 01:03:36.960 Um, in my case, I'd say no. 1359 01:03:39.340 --> 01:03:41.420 I think this is the time to turn it over to the audience. 1360 01:03:41.600 --> 01:03:44.700 There's a microphone somewhere, just somewhere there. 1361 01:03:46.860 --> 01:03:48.580 Yes, please, and I'll repeat the question. 1362 01:03:49.860 --> 01:03:50.300 Yes. 1363 01:03:54.600 --> 01:03:55.820 I'll repeat it. 1364 01:03:55.820 --> 01:03:57.720 Can you see the microphone? 1365 01:04:01.900 --> 01:04:02.860 Ah, there it is. 1366 01:04:02.920 --> 01:04:04.960 It's on the side, hidden between heads. 1367 01:04:06.780 --> 01:04:08.040 I got fearful... 1368 01:04:08.040 --> 01:04:09.800 This is a question for Mr Sardar, actually. 1369 01:04:10.460 --> 01:04:12.860 I got fearful of me cutting my finger, 1370 01:04:12.900 --> 01:04:15.200 so I won't take that offer with Mr Sardar at the moment. 1371 01:04:15.540 --> 01:04:18.860 But my question to him is that he spoke about the patheticness 1372 01:04:18.860 --> 01:04:20.380 of Blair and Howard, 1373 01:04:20.540 --> 01:04:24.060 and how, as a person of a Pakistani extraction, 1374 01:04:24.820 --> 01:04:25.260 he's... 1375 01:04:26.160 --> 01:04:28.300 more in fear of Blair, 1376 01:04:29.120 --> 01:04:32.480 and then perhaps less hopeful of the British society where he live in. 1377 01:04:32.580 --> 01:04:35.080 How is he coping with that fear and hope, then? 1378 01:04:36.200 --> 01:04:36.720 Sir? 1379 01:04:37.640 --> 01:04:39.120 How am I coping with... 1380 01:04:39.120 --> 01:04:41.940 You're definitely determined to hear my pious story, aren't you? 1381 01:04:45.120 --> 01:04:46.160 Ah, I... 1382 01:04:46.160 --> 01:04:48.500 It's interesting for pointing out... 1383 01:04:48.500 --> 01:04:50.000 Thank you, actually, thank you for pointing out 1384 01:04:50.000 --> 01:04:51.980 I'm a person of Pakistani extraction. 1385 01:04:52.360 --> 01:04:53.480 Ah, because I... 1386 01:04:53.480 --> 01:04:55.200 Because I frequently forget... 1387 01:04:55.200 --> 01:04:55.440 I forget that. 1388 01:04:57.940 --> 01:04:58.460 Because... 1389 01:04:58.460 --> 01:04:59.320 Yeah, I mean... 1390 01:04:59.320 --> 01:05:00.620 Yeah, if... 1391 01:05:01.200 --> 01:05:01.680 If I... 1392 01:05:01.680 --> 01:05:02.220 If I were... 1393 01:05:02.220 --> 01:05:04.040 I have to tell you that if I was living in Pakistan, 1394 01:05:04.220 --> 01:05:05.180 I'd be very, very fearful. 1395 01:05:05.540 --> 01:05:07.400 I'd be fearful of the mullahs, 1396 01:05:07.400 --> 01:05:08.860 I would be fearful of the military, 1397 01:05:09.080 --> 01:05:10.220 I'd be fearful of... 1398 01:05:10.220 --> 01:05:10.840 of bureaucracy, 1399 01:05:11.240 --> 01:05:14.040 I'd be fearful of all the American CIA folks 1400 01:05:14.040 --> 01:05:16.960 that are running around with guns and distributing guns throughout society. 1401 01:05:17.580 --> 01:05:18.100 Ah... 1402 01:05:18.100 --> 01:05:19.420 I think it's a... 1403 01:05:19.420 --> 01:05:21.200 It's a very fearful society. 1404 01:05:21.400 --> 01:05:21.580 There... 1405 01:05:21.580 --> 01:05:21.880 There... 1406 01:05:21.880 --> 01:05:24.180 There is absolutely no... 1407 01:05:24.180 --> 01:05:52.380 Ah,第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第 1408 01:05:52.380 --> 01:05:56.540 miserable. So that's the Pakistani story and I have to tell you that I haven't 1409 01:05:56.540 --> 01:06:01.020 been to Pakistan for three four years so I haven't experienced that recently. In 1410 01:06:01.020 --> 01:06:05.380 Britain is slightly different story in the sense that we do have a great deal 1411 01:06:05.380 --> 01:06:11.740 of hope in Britain and we actually were very hopeful of the new labor and new 1412 01:06:11.740 --> 01:06:18.100 labor came into power overwhelming support it was you know it was we were 1413 01:06:18.100 --> 01:06:22.600 really kind of I think the whole nation was more or less ecstatic so when they 1414 01:06:22.600 --> 01:06:28.040 when they started the term they said we are forced to continue with the 1415 01:06:28.040 --> 01:06:33.940 conservative policies because they are in motion so we will continue with the 1416 01:06:33.940 --> 01:06:39.020 conservatives for two years. Unfortunately labor like conservative 1417 01:06:39.020 --> 01:06:44.040 policies so much that they have kept them totally so we are very miserable 1418 01:06:44.040 --> 01:06:47.900 and not very hopeful given the fact that is a hardly different 1419 01:06:47.900 --> 01:06:48.080 country. 1420 01:06:48.100 --> 01:06:53.920 between any difference between new labor which is a pathetic and has become 1421 01:06:53.920 --> 01:06:58.480 quite a pathetic political party and the opposition conservatives which were 1422 01:06:58.480 --> 01:07:07.900 always pathetic and between we got liberals who are not quite liberals like 1423 01:07:07.900 --> 01:07:12.080 the Australian liberals they're a bit more historically liberal but again 1424 01:07:12.080 --> 01:07:17.220 nobody actually votes liberal including I've never voted liberal myself 1425 01:07:17.920 --> 01:07:18.080 you know. 1426 01:07:18.080 --> 01:07:19.880 So there's no hope there in that sense. 1427 01:07:21.140 --> 01:07:24.940 So politically politically we are in a politically we are in a very very bad 1428 01:07:24.940 --> 01:07:30.680 shape and therefore I'm trying to persuade my neighborhood to rebel and 1429 01:07:30.680 --> 01:07:31.540 declare a UDI. 1430 01:07:34.040 --> 01:07:35.500 Hopefully we would. 1431 01:07:36.040 --> 01:07:37.100 Next gentleman there. 1432 01:07:37.740 --> 01:07:39.240 I've got two comments. 1433 01:07:39.760 --> 01:07:41.680 Can you keep them brief please? 1434 01:07:41.740 --> 01:07:42.320 Very brief. 1435 01:07:42.380 --> 01:07:48.060 First one is did everyone consider getting QM a secretary so he could actually dictate the 1436 01:07:49.580 --> 01:07:51.900 secretary could read material to him? 1437 01:07:52.040 --> 01:07:56.180 The problem with that was that he said he had a lot to read and so the books themselves 1438 01:07:56.180 --> 01:07:59.660 by the person whose biography they were writing to could have been read to him. 1439 01:08:00.880 --> 01:08:04.320 That isn't the way that you interact with literature I think when you're writing a biography 1440 01:08:04.320 --> 01:08:07.460 so he did try that but it just didn't work. 1441 01:08:07.780 --> 01:08:13.400 My other comment was you mentioned Huntington's there is also a disorder called Asperger's 1442 01:08:13.400 --> 01:08:18.060 syndrome where people just they don't pick up any emotional cues and in the middle of 1443 01:08:18.060 --> 01:08:24.140 the cases they don't have any idea about someone else's emotional existence and they just 1444 01:08:24.140 --> 01:08:29.060 seem to be incapable of even understanding that that exists and I wonder if that fits 1445 01:08:29.060 --> 01:08:31.940 in if you've got a way of understanding that in your model of. 1446 01:08:32.440 --> 01:08:38.520 Yes I mean that's related to autism it's what's called high level autism and there's a wonderful 1447 01:08:38.520 --> 01:08:44.660 book by Simon Baron Cohen about four very very famous senior scientists at Cambridge 1448 01:08:44.660 --> 01:08:45.960 all with Asperger's syndrome. 1449 01:08:47.040 --> 01:08:47.600 So. 1450 01:08:47.700 --> 01:08:48.040 I think. 1451 01:08:48.060 --> 01:08:52.640 It's high level autism in the sense that you can be highly intelligent but you simply 1452 01:08:52.640 --> 01:08:59.080 can't understand that other people have minds and so you can't appreciate that something 1453 01:08:59.080 --> 01:09:03.240 that you think is true another person could think is false because you can only appreciate 1454 01:09:03.240 --> 01:09:06.660 that if there are two minds your mind and somebody else's mind. 1455 01:09:07.100 --> 01:09:11.500 You can get along in the world well if you're an Asperger's person but you'll always show 1456 01:09:11.500 --> 01:09:14.340 this inability to understand that there are other minds around you. 1457 01:09:14.400 --> 01:09:17.320 For you there's only one mind in the world which is your own. 1458 01:09:17.560 --> 01:09:18.040 So. 1459 01:09:18.060 --> 01:09:19.580 Couldn't run a festival like that could you. 1460 01:09:23.920 --> 01:09:32.920 I have a hope that one day the peoples of the world will become peace loving, just, honest 1461 01:09:32.920 --> 01:09:33.880 and kind. 1462 01:09:35.460 --> 01:09:37.760 I have a fear that we don't have that in us. 1463 01:09:39.240 --> 01:09:43.960 I must say I did feel hope reinforced when millions of people throughout the world marched 1464 01:09:44.800 --> 01:09:47.960 before the Iraq war in opposition to the remote. 1465 01:09:48.060 --> 01:09:49.280 The Iraq war. 1466 01:09:50.020 --> 01:09:56.420 The point I wish to make is I think hope feeds on action at an individual level and at a 1467 01:09:56.420 --> 01:09:57.140 collective level. 1468 01:09:58.100 --> 01:10:01.040 And do you want to turn that into a question or do you want to leave it as a statement. 1469 01:10:01.060 --> 01:10:02.440 I'd just like to comment on that. 1470 01:10:02.860 --> 01:10:03.500 Some comment? 1471 01:10:04.200 --> 01:10:04.940 Joanna perhaps. 1472 01:10:05.060 --> 01:10:05.360 Peter. 1473 01:10:13.580 --> 01:10:16.860 No I mean I think to take off from what you were saying. 1474 01:10:17.100 --> 01:10:17.540 People must. 1475 01:10:17.540 --> 01:10:17.900 I mean certainly. 1476 01:10:18.040 --> 01:10:25.720 Certainly in Britain the sense of hope that we all had when we were marching just before 1477 01:10:25.720 --> 01:10:32.140 the war you know was I mean it was spoken about by absolutely everyone. 1478 01:10:32.520 --> 01:10:39.660 Mainly because there are people from all over the country united you know with this one 1479 01:10:39.660 --> 01:10:40.960 thing in mind. 1480 01:10:41.360 --> 01:10:45.820 And I can still recall the devastation the day after. 1481 01:10:45.960 --> 01:10:47.140 When Tony Blair. 1482 01:10:47.140 --> 01:10:52.540 Got on the television and more or less said what march. 1483 01:10:53.160 --> 01:10:55.820 You know and completely ignored it. 1484 01:10:55.920 --> 01:11:01.600 And you know the sense immediately after of actually hopelessness was palatable. 1485 01:11:03.640 --> 01:11:06.380 Actually I think we do need a new politics of hope. 1486 01:11:06.540 --> 01:11:10.480 The problem I mean especially in Britain the politics just doesn't work. 1487 01:11:10.660 --> 01:11:14.100 I mean there are hardly any differences of opinion between political parties. 1488 01:11:14.400 --> 01:11:16.560 I think this is largely true in America as well. 1489 01:11:16.560 --> 01:11:17.940 Although I'm not sure about Australia. 1490 01:11:18.500 --> 01:11:20.580 So we do need a new politics of hope. 1491 01:11:20.720 --> 01:11:23.620 And we need to go out and fight for that politics of hope. 1492 01:11:23.800 --> 01:11:26.820 And the thing about the demonstrations. 1493 01:11:28.260 --> 01:11:32.880 Pre Iraq war demonstrations is that I think they have given us a momentum to actually 1494 01:11:32.880 --> 01:11:35.360 go out and fight for some new form of politics. 1495 01:11:35.880 --> 01:11:38.820 And I can see it happening in the next few years. 1496 01:11:40.240 --> 01:11:40.660 Gassan. 1497 01:11:40.780 --> 01:11:42.000 I just wanted to say. 1498 01:11:42.360 --> 01:11:43.840 I just wanted to say something. 1499 01:11:43.920 --> 01:11:44.540 Which is that. 1500 01:11:45.140 --> 01:11:46.540 In the work that I did on the. 1501 01:11:46.560 --> 01:11:47.180 Humane virtues. 1502 01:11:47.580 --> 01:11:48.580 I did a. 1503 01:11:48.780 --> 01:11:50.440 Quite a lot of work on courage. 1504 01:11:50.940 --> 01:11:56.680 And found it to be true and found it wonderful to be able to say how true it was not out 1505 01:11:56.680 --> 01:11:59.620 of my own experience only but many people's experience. 1506 01:12:00.020 --> 01:12:02.800 That fear and courage really do grow back to back. 1507 01:12:03.140 --> 01:12:07.960 That we don't even need to discover courage until we are in a situation where we're feeling 1508 01:12:08.520 --> 01:12:08.920 our fear. 1509 01:12:09.200 --> 01:12:13.060 However as other speakers have pointed out in this session and many other sessions. 1510 01:12:13.300 --> 01:12:14.700 There can also be too much. 1511 01:12:14.960 --> 01:12:16.180 We can be flooded. 1512 01:12:16.180 --> 01:12:16.720 By it. 1513 01:12:16.880 --> 01:12:18.120 And therefore paralyzed. 1514 01:12:18.560 --> 01:12:22.380 So there is in this word or idea or concept or. 1515 01:12:22.480 --> 01:12:23.600 Or goal. 1516 01:12:24.060 --> 01:12:25.140 Of hope. 1517 01:12:25.300 --> 01:12:27.660 There is the promise also of action. 1518 01:12:28.000 --> 01:12:32.440 It not only colors and shapes our attitudes it also allows for action. 1519 01:12:32.640 --> 01:12:35.140 We know that when we're just flooded by fear we can. 1520 01:12:35.240 --> 01:12:39.360 We can be paralyzed inwardly as well as outwardly. 1521 01:12:39.480 --> 01:12:43.060 And then of course we can quickly slip into despair. 1522 01:12:43.600 --> 01:12:45.880 And that's a very painful. 1523 01:12:45.880 --> 01:12:48.680 State as we as we all know. 1524 01:12:49.080 --> 01:12:52.520 So there is no hope in a sense that is worth. 1525 01:12:53.000 --> 01:12:53.520 Anything. 1526 01:12:53.780 --> 01:12:58.500 Unless it leads to some kind of action or or on the other hand. 1527 01:12:58.660 --> 01:13:02.300 A conscious decision not to take a certain kind of action. 1528 01:13:02.420 --> 01:13:04.080 It can also lead us to restraint. 1529 01:13:05.820 --> 01:13:07.500 Last word from everyone on our panel. 1530 01:13:07.580 --> 01:13:08.520 Max got a last word. 1531 01:13:09.480 --> 01:13:10.000 Well. 1532 01:13:10.600 --> 01:13:13.120 Richard Butler was asked was saying yesterday. 1533 01:13:13.980 --> 01:13:15.380 One of the major obstacles. 1534 01:13:15.380 --> 01:13:18.700 Between the West and the Islamic world in the West and the. 1535 01:13:19.420 --> 01:13:21.320 Chinese world was the horror. 1536 01:13:21.680 --> 01:13:21.940 That. 1537 01:13:22.360 --> 01:13:24.560 Islamic people and Chinese people experience. 1538 01:13:25.000 --> 01:13:26.940 When they see pornography on the Internet. 1539 01:13:28.320 --> 01:13:31.120 And they think that's a sign of the evil of the West. 1540 01:13:31.520 --> 01:13:34.620 What we should think about though is where is this pornography coming from. 1541 01:13:34.740 --> 01:13:35.560 If it's so popular. 1542 01:13:36.580 --> 01:13:37.900 Is it the will of the West. 1543 01:13:38.580 --> 01:13:40.260 The Democratic will of the West. 1544 01:13:41.380 --> 01:13:43.460 That there should be a lot of pornography on the Internet. 1545 01:13:43.960 --> 01:13:45.360 And if it isn't where it's coming from. 1546 01:13:45.360 --> 01:13:46.720 Where is it coming from. 1547 01:13:46.820 --> 01:13:47.600 And if it is. 1548 01:13:47.660 --> 01:13:48.820 What are we going to do about. 1549 01:13:49.660 --> 01:13:52.280 The conflict between us not liking pornography. 1550 01:13:52.760 --> 01:13:54.460 And it being democratically popular. 1551 01:13:54.820 --> 01:13:55.940 Richard of course. 1552 01:13:56.200 --> 01:13:57.200 Pointed that out himself. 1553 01:13:57.560 --> 01:13:58.780 He couldn't think of an answer. 1554 01:13:58.920 --> 01:13:59.380 Nor can I. 1555 01:14:00.160 --> 01:14:01.680 Cass and last word from you. 1556 01:14:04.140 --> 01:14:04.800 I mean. 1557 01:14:05.260 --> 01:14:08.160 Without being equally cynical. 1558 01:14:10.080 --> 01:14:11.560 I think there was. 1559 01:14:11.620 --> 01:14:12.220 There is. 1560 01:14:12.780 --> 01:14:13.300 Quite. 1561 01:14:13.920 --> 01:14:15.160 A good deal of. 1562 01:14:15.160 --> 01:14:15.600 Stimulus. 1563 01:14:15.720 --> 01:14:18.120 That goes on with marching. 1564 01:14:18.180 --> 01:14:19.160 For the war. 1565 01:14:19.480 --> 01:14:20.960 I think. 1566 01:14:21.640 --> 01:14:23.760 It's a kind of like Western. 1567 01:14:25.060 --> 01:14:25.820 Therapy. 1568 01:14:26.880 --> 01:14:28.100 In which. 1569 01:14:28.220 --> 01:14:30.120 We maintain the good conscience. 1570 01:14:30.600 --> 01:14:31.280 Without. 1571 01:14:32.320 --> 01:14:33.540 Allowing it really. 1572 01:14:34.060 --> 01:14:35.640 To activate us politically. 1573 01:14:37.700 --> 01:14:38.880 So yeah. 1574 01:14:39.560 --> 01:14:41.420 It's been known now that. 1575 01:14:42.160 --> 01:14:43.520 A lot of people were. 1576 01:14:43.520 --> 01:14:45.780 Very very opposed to the war. 1577 01:14:46.980 --> 01:14:47.660 So. 1578 01:14:48.060 --> 01:14:49.780 What it means is that. 1579 01:14:51.160 --> 01:14:53.920 Western nations have invaded Iraq. 1580 01:14:54.260 --> 01:14:55.340 And their citizens. 1581 01:14:55.520 --> 01:14:56.240 And maintain. 1582 01:14:56.520 --> 01:14:57.640 That good conscience. 1583 01:14:58.220 --> 01:15:00.200 It's a double victory for the West. 1584 01:15:01.140 --> 01:15:01.820 As. 1585 01:15:02.460 --> 01:15:02.520 It's. 1586 01:15:03.140 --> 01:15:05.340 There is an element in which. 1587 01:15:05.920 --> 01:15:06.280 You know. 1588 01:15:06.700 --> 01:15:07.380 Like. 1589 01:15:08.700 --> 01:15:11.040 Someone was asking Peter at this session. 1590 01:15:11.440 --> 01:15:12.120 About. 1591 01:15:12.120 --> 01:15:13.540 How we live with. 1592 01:15:13.600 --> 01:15:14.440 The fact that. 1593 01:15:14.900 --> 01:15:15.740 William Dean. 1594 01:15:16.680 --> 01:15:17.900 Has been so popular. 1595 01:15:18.140 --> 01:15:18.960 At the time. 1596 01:15:18.980 --> 01:15:19.440 Where there is. 1597 01:15:19.520 --> 01:15:20.180 So much. 1598 01:15:21.020 --> 01:15:21.520 Immoral. 1599 01:15:22.620 --> 01:15:23.540 Political behavior. 1600 01:15:24.180 --> 01:15:24.680 That. 1601 01:15:24.720 --> 01:15:25.840 We support such. 1602 01:15:26.400 --> 01:15:26.900 Moral. 1603 01:15:26.900 --> 01:15:27.220 Person. 1604 01:15:27.600 --> 01:15:28.540 But I think. 1605 01:15:28.760 --> 01:15:30.000 There is no contradiction. 1606 01:15:30.340 --> 01:15:30.740 I think. 1607 01:15:30.840 --> 01:15:31.240 The two. 1608 01:15:31.420 --> 01:15:32.440 Go in hand in hand. 1609 01:15:32.520 --> 01:15:33.880 We preserve our morality. 1610 01:15:34.160 --> 01:15:34.700 While in fact. 1611 01:15:34.980 --> 01:15:35.660 We are. 1612 01:15:36.260 --> 01:15:37.600 Supporting immoral politics. 1613 01:15:37.840 --> 01:15:38.240 We're being. 1614 01:15:38.760 --> 01:15:39.260 It's. 1615 01:15:39.260 --> 01:15:39.520 It's. 1616 01:15:39.620 --> 01:15:40.980 The question of how much. 1617 01:15:41.280 --> 01:15:41.780 Outrage. 1618 01:15:41.820 --> 01:15:42.100 We have. 1619 01:15:42.100 --> 01:15:42.360 One can. 1620 01:15:42.940 --> 01:15:43.380 Get. 1621 01:15:43.520 --> 01:15:43.880 You know. 1622 01:15:43.940 --> 01:15:44.220 I mean. 1623 01:15:44.860 --> 01:15:46.460 The level of detachment. 1624 01:15:46.600 --> 01:15:47.040 Show. 1625 01:15:47.960 --> 01:15:48.400 That. 1626 01:15:48.460 --> 01:15:48.860 We're being. 1627 01:15:48.960 --> 01:15:49.280 Light. 1628 01:15:49.380 --> 01:15:49.580 To. 1629 01:15:49.760 --> 01:15:50.200 Routinely. 1630 01:15:50.960 --> 01:15:51.400 And. 1631 01:15:51.520 --> 01:15:52.280 We know that. 1632 01:15:52.500 --> 01:15:52.920 And. 1633 01:15:52.960 --> 01:15:53.500 We cynically. 1634 01:15:54.540 --> 01:15:54.980 Happy. 1635 01:15:55.920 --> 01:15:56.360 And. 1636 01:15:56.500 --> 01:15:57.140 We maintain. 1637 01:15:57.280 --> 01:15:58.580 The fact that we have a good. 1638 01:15:58.820 --> 01:15:59.260 Conscience. 1639 01:16:00.120 --> 01:16:00.740 Sort of. 1640 01:16:00.760 --> 01:16:00.980 That. 1641 01:16:01.000 --> 01:16:01.200 But. 1642 01:16:01.260 --> 01:16:01.800 In fact. 1643 01:16:02.100 --> 01:16:03.300 We are not letting. 1644 01:16:03.400 --> 01:16:04.240 That good conscience. 1645 01:16:04.460 --> 01:16:04.820 Connect. 1646 01:16:05.060 --> 01:16:06.120 With political activity. 1647 01:16:06.420 --> 01:16:06.820 We're letting. 1648 01:16:06.980 --> 01:16:07.580 The bad. 1649 01:16:12.100 --> 01:16:12.200 Conscience. 1650 01:16:13.420 --> 01:16:14.260 The luxury. 1651 01:16:14.600 --> 01:16:15.120 Of having. 1652 01:16:15.140 --> 01:16:15.740 Good conscience. 1653 01:16:15.940 --> 01:16:16.300 As well. 1654 01:16:16.460 --> 01:16:17.040 I think. 1655 01:16:17.040 --> 01:16:17.440 It is. 1656 01:16:17.660 --> 01:16:18.340 The epitome. 1657 01:16:18.520 --> 01:16:18.680 Of. 1658 01:16:18.740 --> 01:16:19.060 Western. 1659 01:16:19.100 --> 01:16:19.460 Politics. 1660 01:16:27.540 --> 01:16:27.960 We're. 1661 01:16:27.960 --> 01:16:28.360 Running. 1662 01:16:28.400 --> 01:16:28.640 Very. 1663 01:16:28.700 --> 01:16:28.960 Close. 1664 01:16:28.960 --> 01:16:29.120 To. 1665 01:16:29.180 --> 01:16:29.500 Time. 1666 01:16:29.540 --> 01:16:29.780 But. 1667 01:16:29.940 --> 01:16:30.360 Our. 1668 01:16:30.560 --> 01:16:30.720 Last. 1669 01:16:30.740 --> 01:16:30.880 Three. 1670 01:16:30.920 --> 01:16:31.240 Speakers. 1671 01:16:31.280 --> 01:16:31.540 Peter. 1672 01:16:31.620 --> 01:16:31.840 Zia. 1673 01:16:32.060 --> 01:16:32.480 Joanna. 1674 01:16:32.660 --> 01:16:33.080 Something. 1675 01:16:33.200 --> 01:16:33.320 You. 1676 01:16:33.360 --> 01:16:33.460 Want. 1677 01:17:04.940 --> 01:17:06.340 One第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第第 1678 01:17:06.340 --> 01:17:07.140 I still have some little hope. 1679 01:17:07.240 --> 01:17:07.960 You can ask me this. 1680 01:17:11.340 --> 01:17:15.380 I would like to say that people should really buy a copy of my book, 1681 01:17:15.440 --> 01:17:16.260 Why Do People Hate Us? 1682 01:17:18.640 --> 01:17:21.540 And be totally and utterly paralyzed with fear. 1683 01:17:23.060 --> 01:17:26.000 I also recommend that you read the essay on pain, 1684 01:17:26.160 --> 01:17:27.480 which is all about my operation. 1685 01:17:29.480 --> 01:17:33.420 And that book is called The A to Z of Postmodern Life, 1686 01:17:33.500 --> 01:17:35.680 and it's been sold in the tent. 1687 01:17:36.660 --> 01:17:37.860 Along with the razor blades. 1688 01:17:38.740 --> 01:17:39.600 Last word. 1689 01:17:39.840 --> 01:17:40.620 Very, very quickly. 1690 01:17:40.820 --> 01:17:44.440 I'm often accused of telling an extremely pessimistic story, 1691 01:17:45.120 --> 01:17:48.580 a Hobbesian story in which people act beastly towards each other, 1692 01:17:48.680 --> 01:17:49.840 and I will stick by this, 1693 01:17:49.920 --> 01:17:53.780 but I do see some hope in the politicization 1694 01:17:53.780 --> 01:17:57.000 because of what's happened just in the last few months, 1695 01:17:57.180 --> 01:18:02.320 that people, I think, are perhaps beginning to turn away 1696 01:18:02.320 --> 01:18:05.600 from the sort of new-agey self-indulgence 1697 01:18:05.600 --> 01:18:06.940 that we've been wallowing in, 1698 01:18:07.020 --> 01:18:10.100 and actually have or are becoming politicized. 1699 01:18:10.280 --> 01:18:11.740 And I see hope in that. 1700 01:18:12.120 --> 01:18:12.640 Rah. 1701 01:18:12.980 --> 01:18:14.860 Can I ask you to thank our speakers? 1702 01:18:15.300 --> 01:18:16.960 Joanna Burke, Peter Beilhart, 1703 01:18:17.160 --> 01:18:18.020 Max Korkhart, 1704 01:18:18.160 --> 01:18:18.740 Stephanie Dyer, 1705 01:18:18.900 --> 01:18:20.700 and Justin Haas. 1706 01:18:28.020 --> 01:18:30.380 And a great audience. 1707 01:18:30.760 --> 01:18:32.000 And a very good audience. 1708 01:18:32.060 --> 01:18:32.520 Thank you.