WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.020 My name is Damon Kekin and I'll be looking after this particular session. 2 00:00:09.300 --> 00:00:15.580 One of the themes of this, the second festival of ideas, has been on reconciliation. 3 00:00:16.960 --> 00:00:23.060 From the incredibly effective opening discussion 4 00:00:23.060 --> 00:00:31.740 in which we heard a series of accounts of what has happened to reconciliation in Australia, 5 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:41.120 as well as an important challenge to some of our thinking about the process of reconciliation raised in that venue. 6 00:00:43.380 --> 00:00:47.140 It was recognised and has been recognised that the arguments about reconciliation, 7 00:00:47.560 --> 00:00:50.600 the politics of reconciliation, the practice of reconciliation, 8 00:00:51.720 --> 00:00:53.040 is not confounded. 9 00:00:53.060 --> 00:00:53.840 It is confined to one country. 10 00:00:54.700 --> 00:01:01.380 The challenge of the kinds of injustice that promotes the politics of reconciliation calls it forth, 11 00:01:03.740 --> 00:01:06.260 widely dispersed around our world. 12 00:01:07.740 --> 00:01:11.860 We are privileged today to have a discussion on the topic of reconciliation around the world 13 00:01:12.700 --> 00:01:22.580 with Rick Farley, Zayten Mohamed Kassim, Halford McCoy, Mbuleyna Mzeina and Sudak Sivaraksa. 14 00:01:25.560 --> 00:01:30.600 The format for our discussion will be each of the speakers will speak for about 10 to 15 minutes 15 00:01:30.600 --> 00:01:34.900 and then we will throw the matter open to wider discussion and debate. 16 00:01:35.540 --> 00:01:39.500 I'd like to invite Rick Farley to come to the microphone. 17 00:01:40.040 --> 00:01:48.580 Rick Farley has been a practical embodiment of an urge for reconciliation 18 00:01:50.480 --> 00:01:53.040 embedded in debates and discussions about the issues of reconciliation. 19 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:55.420 He has made a significant impact on the way we think about the land and the uses of the land. 20 00:01:56.140 --> 00:02:05.000 In which from an organisational position representing organisations that were attached to the land 21 00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:16.300 by ownership, recognised, protected in law, challenged by those who had been dispossessed 22 00:02:17.440 --> 00:02:22.640 and Rick has made an incredible, been an incredible example to the rest of us. 23 00:02:23.540 --> 00:02:29.480 About how to find our way from privilege through to practical acts of reconciliation. 24 00:02:29.880 --> 00:02:30.420 Rick Farley. 25 00:02:38.860 --> 00:02:44.640 Well good morning everyone and congratulations for turning out in such numbers on a Saturday morning. 26 00:02:45.180 --> 00:02:51.520 I want to open by acknowledging the Kaurna people as the traditional owners of the country where we're meeting today. 27 00:02:51.720 --> 00:02:52.980 And by paying tribute to the people of Kaurna. 28 00:02:53.040 --> 00:02:59.180 And by giving respect to their culture, the oldest surviving culture in the world and to their elders. 29 00:03:01.460 --> 00:03:05.740 It's humbling I think to be part of such a discussion this morning. 30 00:03:05.920 --> 00:03:11.820 And obviously we'll hear from the other speakers that reconciliation means different things around the world. 31 00:03:12.260 --> 00:03:17.540 And there are different processes which are being applied in different countries. 32 00:03:18.300 --> 00:03:23.020 So what I'd like to do is just set the scene for how I see the reconciliation process. 33 00:03:23.040 --> 00:03:24.580 And Australia today. 34 00:03:25.500 --> 00:03:32.200 And I want to make it clear that in doing so I can only speak for myself and out of my own practical experiences. 35 00:03:33.980 --> 00:03:46.740 The first thing that I'd like to note is that Australia really is centuries behind most other countries in coming to grips with the relationship between indigenous and non-indigenous people. 36 00:03:47.420 --> 00:03:52.840 It was only in the 1967 referendum that Aboriginal people were recognised. 37 00:03:52.840 --> 00:03:54.440 For the first time in the constitution. 38 00:03:55.280 --> 00:04:05.000 And it was only in 1992 with the High Court's Mabo decision that we started to come to grips with the legal basis of the relationship. 39 00:04:07.240 --> 00:04:11.820 Other countries of course have been grappling with the same issues for hundreds of years. 40 00:04:12.080 --> 00:04:19.340 But many of them had a much more secure base for those initial discussions in the form of treaties. 41 00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:22.820 There was an initial legal basis to the relationship. 42 00:04:22.840 --> 00:04:24.700 That didn't exist in Australia. 43 00:04:25.760 --> 00:04:30.780 The second point I'd like to make is that the reconciliation process in many ways was a compromise. 44 00:04:31.200 --> 00:04:36.860 The Hawke government came to power promising national land rights. 45 00:04:37.520 --> 00:04:41.840 And Bob Hawke as Prime Minister also promised a treaty or Makarrata. 46 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:43.960 Neither of those happened. 47 00:04:44.320 --> 00:04:49.060 And instead we had a ten year legislative process of reconciliation. 48 00:04:50.040 --> 00:04:52.340 A lot of Aboriginal people were suspicious. 49 00:04:52.340 --> 00:04:58.680 And I guess to some extent remain a little bit quizzical about the results of that process. 50 00:04:58.940 --> 00:05:04.920 Because the reality is that Aboriginal people have usually got more out of the courts than out of the political processes. 51 00:05:05.760 --> 00:05:17.040 And a lot of Aboriginal people I think retain the view today that it's possible to achieve more goals from the court process than out of the political process. 52 00:05:18.040 --> 00:05:22.320 We also need to note that in Australia Aboriginal people only represent 2% of the population. 53 00:05:22.320 --> 00:05:31.560 So the political base from which they operate is different and smaller than in many other areas of the world, many other countries. 54 00:05:33.280 --> 00:05:36.160 The ten year legislative process is over. 55 00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:47.480 And one of the differences of course to note is that the Council for Aboriginal Reconciliation which was established by an act of parliament supported by all of the political parties 56 00:05:48.320 --> 00:05:52.300 didn't have the same powers for instance as the Truth and Reconciliation Council. 57 00:05:52.320 --> 00:05:54.160 It was the same commission in South Africa. 58 00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:58.080 There was no power to subpoena witnesses. 59 00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:04.120 There was no legal basis to any of the conclusions that the Council came to. 60 00:06:05.340 --> 00:06:09.760 So the situation that we're in at the moment is that the formal legislative process has concluded. 61 00:06:10.280 --> 00:06:18.100 A foundation called Reconciliation Australia has been established to carry on the work of the Council for Aboriginal Reconciliation. 62 00:06:18.100 --> 00:06:30.960 In that ten year period my view is that there was a lot done in terms of education and a lot done in terms of changing public attitudes to indigenous issues. 63 00:06:31.320 --> 00:06:39.560 That of course was borne out by the public support for Corroboree 2000 and the bridge walks in all of Australia's capital cities. 64 00:06:40.520 --> 00:06:45.140 But as one of our colleagues here pointed out on Thursday night, 65 00:06:45.140 --> 00:06:50.460 perhaps the best way to look at that ten year period is as a honeymoon period. 66 00:06:51.260 --> 00:06:55.500 We've all got the nice warm fuzzy feeling about reconciliation. 67 00:06:56.280 --> 00:07:00.720 But we're now down to the hard grind of making the marriage work. 68 00:07:01.620 --> 00:07:08.720 So let's just look at some of the things that still remain to be done. 69 00:07:10.060 --> 00:07:14.900 In the first instance the Council for Reconciliation delivered a report to parliament. 70 00:07:15.880 --> 00:07:24.460 There has yet been no response to any of the recommendations put forward by the Council from any of the political parties. 71 00:07:25.220 --> 00:07:30.380 So after a ten year period, a lot of money spent, report, final recommendations, 72 00:07:30.640 --> 00:07:35.200 there is yet no political response to the recommendations of the Council. 73 00:07:37.620 --> 00:07:42.380 Secondly, Australia remains under scrutiny internationally 74 00:07:43.140 --> 00:07:45.120 and the Committee for the Elimination of Racism, 75 00:07:45.140 --> 00:07:45.840 and the Committee for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination 76 00:07:45.840 --> 00:07:53.300 has issued a pleas explain to Australia in terms of human rights issues and particularly native title issues. 77 00:07:55.140 --> 00:08:00.280 There has as yet been no formal apology by the Federal Parliament, 78 00:08:00.400 --> 00:08:05.140 although every State Parliament and Territory Parliament except the Northern Territory 79 00:08:05.140 --> 00:08:10.500 has apologised to Aboriginal people, but nothing from the Federal Parliament. 80 00:08:12.140 --> 00:08:14.660 Additionally, the Commonwealth Government has cut funding 81 00:08:15.140 --> 00:08:19.640 for a variety of Aboriginal projects and programmes including funding for ATSIC 82 00:08:19.640 --> 00:08:25.840 and has only given a relatively small amount of money to Reconciliation Australia 83 00:08:25.840 --> 00:08:29.100 to further the work of the Council for Reconciliation. 84 00:08:32.140 --> 00:08:38.860 There is no future legislative process which has yet been enacted by the Commonwealth Parliament. 85 00:08:39.500 --> 00:08:43.540 And in my view there has been an orchestrated attempt to wind back 86 00:08:43.540 --> 00:08:45.120 the process of reconciliation. 87 00:08:45.140 --> 00:08:47.920 I think that there is some of the progress that has been achieved over the last ten years, 88 00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:49.560 not only in terms of funding cuts, 89 00:08:50.180 --> 00:08:54.560 but I think there has been an organised intellectual assault 90 00:08:55.180 --> 00:08:57.140 on some of the principles of reconciliation. 91 00:08:58.120 --> 00:09:00.540 We are starting to see the questioning of culture, 92 00:09:00.700 --> 00:09:04.860 and for the first time in newspapers that I can recall for many years 93 00:09:04.860 --> 00:09:07.480 we are seeing phrases like part Aboriginal, 94 00:09:08.280 --> 00:09:11.740 which doesn't reflect of course the basis of Aboriginal culture. 95 00:09:11.740 --> 00:09:16.380 We are seeing an undermining of the basis of the Bringing Them Home Report 96 00:09:16.380 --> 00:09:19.200 by Sir Ronald Wilson and Mick Dodson. 97 00:09:20.260 --> 00:09:26.060 We are seeing the Government attempt to drive divisions in Aboriginal leadership, 98 00:09:26.300 --> 00:09:29.520 talking about new leaders versus old leaders 99 00:09:29.520 --> 00:09:35.400 and attempting to promote a new approach which they call practical reconciliation. 100 00:09:37.920 --> 00:09:41.340 At the cutting edge, of course, 101 00:09:41.340 --> 00:09:46.580 the position of most Aboriginal people has not improved one iota. 102 00:09:47.380 --> 00:09:54.160 In New South Wales 40% of those in correctional centres are Indigenous people. 103 00:09:55.360 --> 00:10:00.540 Of those under 15 in correctional centres it's almost 60%. 104 00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:05.480 There is a cycle of poverty which exists and continues to exist 105 00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:08.200 in many Aboriginal communities and it goes something like this. 106 00:10:08.300 --> 00:10:09.540 If you haven't got a good house, 107 00:10:09.540 --> 00:10:11.600 you usually haven't got good health. 108 00:10:11.800 --> 00:10:12.920 If you haven't got good health, 109 00:10:13.040 --> 00:10:15.760 it's impossible to go to school and get a good education. 110 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:17.960 If you haven't got a good education, 111 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:19.420 it's much harder to get a job. 112 00:10:19.660 --> 00:10:21.080 If you can't get a good job, 113 00:10:21.160 --> 00:10:22.920 then of course you can't have a good house, 114 00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:24.400 and the cycle continues. 115 00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:27.140 It's very difficult for a lot of Aboriginal people 116 00:10:27.140 --> 00:10:29.380 to drag themselves up out of that. 117 00:10:30.460 --> 00:10:32.780 So the bottom line from a lot of Aboriginal people, 118 00:10:32.920 --> 00:10:34.560 and certainly from my perspective, 119 00:10:34.640 --> 00:10:37.540 is that we're not going to have true and effective reconciliation 120 00:10:38.340 --> 00:10:39.520 until the social justice system is established. 121 00:10:39.540 --> 00:10:43.580 And there is still a long way to go on social justice issues. 122 00:10:45.380 --> 00:10:48.420 I want to deal briefly now with some of the tools 123 00:10:48.420 --> 00:10:51.260 that are available to advance the agenda. 124 00:10:51.960 --> 00:10:54.180 And on that score it's not all bad news. 125 00:10:55.180 --> 00:10:59.260 Native title gives Aboriginal people a negotiating position 126 00:10:59.260 --> 00:11:03.940 in terms of some land, national parks, state forests, 127 00:11:04.700 --> 00:11:08.240 unallocated state land and some forms of leases. 128 00:11:08.440 --> 00:11:09.060 But of course, 129 00:11:09.060 --> 00:11:14.380 native title cannot interfere with the rights granted validly 130 00:11:14.380 --> 00:11:15.700 by government to someone else. 131 00:11:15.920 --> 00:11:18.020 So probably the best way to think about native title 132 00:11:18.020 --> 00:11:20.120 is what's left after everyone else has had their chop. 133 00:11:21.260 --> 00:11:23.500 But still, it does give Aboriginal people 134 00:11:23.500 --> 00:11:26.920 a negotiating position of a total where it hasn't been before. 135 00:11:28.140 --> 00:11:29.000 Secondly, of course, 136 00:11:29.040 --> 00:11:31.180 there is the capacity for future court decisions. 137 00:11:32.140 --> 00:11:34.380 And let's not be under any misapprehension. 138 00:11:34.520 --> 00:11:37.260 Aboriginal people will continue to push their rights agenda 139 00:11:37.260 --> 00:11:38.280 in the courts, 140 00:11:38.420 --> 00:11:38.860 internationally, 141 00:11:39.060 --> 00:11:41.040 and in terms of constitutional amendments. 142 00:11:41.940 --> 00:11:45.040 We have a people's movement which is being constructed 143 00:11:45.040 --> 00:11:47.840 with reconciliation groups formed throughout Australia. 144 00:11:48.060 --> 00:11:50.680 And that has the capacity to generate some political weight. 145 00:11:51.240 --> 00:11:52.440 And there is, of course, 146 00:11:52.460 --> 00:11:54.100 a magnificent opportunity in the lead up 147 00:11:54.100 --> 00:11:55.940 to the federal election later this year. 148 00:11:56.760 --> 00:11:58.740 There also are potential alliances. 149 00:11:59.520 --> 00:12:02.020 I've tried in the work that I do 150 00:12:02.020 --> 00:12:04.740 to develop what I regard as a natural alliance 151 00:12:04.740 --> 00:12:06.720 between Aboriginal people, 152 00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:09.040 farmers and environmentalists. 153 00:12:09.040 --> 00:12:11.580 Because the one thing they all have in common 154 00:12:11.580 --> 00:12:14.160 is the view that you need to care for country. 155 00:12:15.920 --> 00:12:18.420 There are programs that are being implemented 156 00:12:18.420 --> 00:12:19.780 for business partnerships 157 00:12:19.780 --> 00:12:21.820 to develop Aboriginal businesses 158 00:12:21.820 --> 00:12:23.620 and create Aboriginal jobs. 159 00:12:23.780 --> 00:12:26.620 And so alleviate some of that cycle of poverty. 160 00:12:27.140 --> 00:12:29.180 International scrutiny will continue. 161 00:12:29.460 --> 00:12:32.100 There is a capacity for international alliances. 162 00:12:32.300 --> 00:12:34.360 And Aboriginal people are active 163 00:12:34.360 --> 00:12:38.220 in networking with Indigenous people 164 00:12:38.220 --> 00:12:39.640 in many other countries. 165 00:12:39.780 --> 00:12:40.900 And I'm sure it will be reflected 166 00:12:40.900 --> 00:12:42.780 in what other speakers have to say today. 167 00:12:44.440 --> 00:12:45.280 Perhaps, though, 168 00:12:45.380 --> 00:12:48.500 when you look at the challenges for the future, 169 00:12:50.380 --> 00:12:53.420 to me, the agenda is really going to have three parts. 170 00:12:53.620 --> 00:12:55.260 One is always going to be education. 171 00:12:56.120 --> 00:12:57.880 Because education has two benefits. 172 00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:01.660 One, it gives us a clear and accurate history. 173 00:13:02.300 --> 00:13:04.040 We need to have that accurate history 174 00:13:04.040 --> 00:13:05.180 and make it a shared history. 175 00:13:05.340 --> 00:13:06.920 That's the basis of going forward. 176 00:13:08.220 --> 00:13:10.200 But of course, education also improves 177 00:13:10.200 --> 00:13:13.020 the material prospects for employment of Aboriginal people. 178 00:13:13.620 --> 00:13:15.760 The second component will be a rights agenda 179 00:13:15.760 --> 00:13:18.480 pursued in the courts, internationally and so on. 180 00:13:18.800 --> 00:13:22.220 And the third component will be action 181 00:13:22.220 --> 00:13:25.600 to try and address the levels of disadvantage which do exist. 182 00:13:26.660 --> 00:13:29.220 Overall, I see that for reconciliation 183 00:13:29.220 --> 00:13:31.160 to be successful in Australia, 184 00:13:31.460 --> 00:13:33.740 there are probably two prime objectives. 185 00:13:34.660 --> 00:13:37.580 One is to ensure that Indigenous culture 186 00:13:37.580 --> 00:13:39.480 is accepted and respected. 187 00:13:40.520 --> 00:13:42.700 That Aboriginal people are recognised 188 00:13:42.700 --> 00:13:44.800 as the first peoples of this country 189 00:13:44.800 --> 00:13:47.960 with the special rights that go with that classification. 190 00:13:49.340 --> 00:13:51.900 The second, I think, is the second test 191 00:13:51.900 --> 00:13:55.320 and the second objective is always going to be 192 00:13:55.320 --> 00:13:57.780 whether Aboriginal people are valued 193 00:13:57.780 --> 00:14:00.060 as partners in economic growth. 194 00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:01.940 That, in many ways, I think, 195 00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:03.320 is the true test of reconciliation. 196 00:14:04.520 --> 00:14:06.660 So the message I really want to leave you with today 197 00:14:06.660 --> 00:14:09.100 is that we've made, I think, 198 00:14:09.220 --> 00:14:12.360 some significant progress in terms of attitudinal change. 199 00:14:12.740 --> 00:14:14.640 But the challenge for all of us now 200 00:14:14.640 --> 00:14:18.960 is to translate that broad base of public support 201 00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:21.440 into action which is going to improve 202 00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:24.520 the life circumstances of many Aboriginal people. 203 00:14:24.880 --> 00:14:27.300 Because the stark reality today 204 00:14:28.020 --> 00:14:30.900 is that there is no equal opportunity 205 00:14:30.900 --> 00:14:33.340 in this country for Aboriginal people. 206 00:14:33.680 --> 00:14:34.420 Thank you. 207 00:14:39.060 --> 00:14:39.660 APPLAUSE 208 00:14:45.580 --> 00:14:46.980 Thank you, Rick. 209 00:14:48.040 --> 00:14:50.760 The second speaker will be Zayton Muhammad Kassim, 210 00:14:51.660 --> 00:14:52.960 otherwise known as Tony. 211 00:14:53.180 --> 00:14:54.100 Are you OK? 212 00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:55.200 I'm all right. 213 00:14:55.380 --> 00:15:01.680 Who is an inspirational political figure in Malaysia. 214 00:15:04.420 --> 00:15:05.680 She has broken... 215 00:15:06.660 --> 00:15:09.040 We in Australia often complain that our political leadership 216 00:15:09.660 --> 00:15:11.400 and the quality of our political debate 217 00:15:11.400 --> 00:15:14.620 has marginalised the scope for us to be politically effective 218 00:15:14.620 --> 00:15:15.780 and politically involved. 219 00:15:16.900 --> 00:15:19.120 The situation that Tony faces in Malaysia 220 00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:21.920 is much more constrained by the exercise 221 00:15:21.920 --> 00:15:25.360 of all forms of constitutional and extra-constitutional powers 222 00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:28.240 that restrict the ability to debate and to be effective. 223 00:15:28.540 --> 00:15:32.120 And in that context, Tony has been an outstanding example 224 00:15:32.120 --> 00:15:33.620 of someone who has pushed the limits 225 00:15:33.620 --> 00:15:35.160 of the Malaysian political system. 226 00:15:35.160 --> 00:15:38.460 As the first independent women's candidate 227 00:15:38.460 --> 00:15:40.420 who ran on a women's issues platform 228 00:15:40.420 --> 00:15:42.300 in the 10th Malaysian federal election 229 00:15:42.300 --> 00:15:45.380 and in her work both within Malaysia 230 00:15:45.380 --> 00:15:46.800 and with international organisations 231 00:15:46.800 --> 00:15:49.560 on conditions of labour and the conditions 232 00:15:49.560 --> 00:15:54.240 and circumstances of women and of minority groups 233 00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:56.360 inside that Malaysian political system. 234 00:15:58.340 --> 00:16:01.400 I'm delighted with the fact that she was willing to return... 235 00:16:01.400 --> 00:16:03.620 return to Adelaide, 236 00:16:03.640 --> 00:16:04.880 given that she has, 237 00:16:05.160 --> 00:16:06.780 a strong Adelaide connection. 238 00:16:07.760 --> 00:16:10.240 Having been educated at Flinders University 239 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:11.620 and having worked in Adelaide 240 00:16:11.620 --> 00:16:13.280 before returning to Malaysia 241 00:16:13.280 --> 00:16:14.500 to take up the challenge 242 00:16:15.160 --> 00:16:18.140 of how to confront that particular political situation 243 00:16:18.140 --> 00:16:19.880 and to open up greater opportunities 244 00:16:19.880 --> 00:16:21.800 for her fellow citizens. 245 00:16:22.280 --> 00:16:24.380 It's a great pleasure I welcome her to the microphone. 246 00:16:24.620 --> 00:16:25.340 Thank you. 247 00:16:33.020 --> 00:16:35.040 A rostrum that's actually made 248 00:16:35.160 --> 00:16:35.460 for me. 249 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:40.000 I too would like to acknowledge 250 00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:42.300 the traditional owners of the land 251 00:16:42.300 --> 00:16:44.640 and thank them for allowing me 252 00:16:44.640 --> 00:16:45.680 to have shared it for 10 years 253 00:16:45.680 --> 00:16:46.860 while I was here 254 00:16:46.860 --> 00:16:48.100 and also allowing me to share it now. 255 00:16:49.160 --> 00:16:51.820 There are some similarities 256 00:16:51.820 --> 00:16:53.560 with the situation here 257 00:16:54.220 --> 00:16:57.920 but I will explain why it's a lot harder 258 00:16:57.920 --> 00:17:00.280 in Malaysia to even begin to think 259 00:17:00.280 --> 00:17:00.840 about reconciliation. 260 00:17:03.400 --> 00:17:05.140 I guess in the case of Malaysia, 261 00:17:05.140 --> 00:17:07.760 we have to think of it in terms of a healing. 262 00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:10.520 Reconciliation is a process of healing 263 00:17:10.520 --> 00:17:12.380 because there are so many scars 264 00:17:12.380 --> 00:17:13.600 and they're so deep. 265 00:17:14.700 --> 00:17:16.340 These scars were... 266 00:17:16.340 --> 00:17:18.600 I guess it's a colonial legacy 267 00:17:19.820 --> 00:17:21.940 of a divide and rule policy 268 00:17:21.940 --> 00:17:25.280 that was brought in when the British came to Malaysia. 269 00:17:26.140 --> 00:17:28.320 But I'm not happy talking about that 270 00:17:29.040 --> 00:17:30.420 because that's like saying 271 00:17:30.420 --> 00:17:32.040 let's blame somebody else for this. 272 00:17:33.120 --> 00:17:34.900 But I'd like to take it another 273 00:17:35.140 --> 00:17:36.900 angle and say why are we then 274 00:17:36.900 --> 00:17:38.120 keeping this tradition going? 275 00:17:38.580 --> 00:17:40.140 Because somebody is benefiting 276 00:17:40.140 --> 00:17:43.500 from keeping a policy of being divided 277 00:17:44.140 --> 00:17:45.880 from practicing divide and rule 278 00:17:45.880 --> 00:17:46.700 within the country. 279 00:17:47.880 --> 00:17:49.540 The divide and rule policies 280 00:17:51.300 --> 00:17:53.260 were deeply, deeply scarring 281 00:17:54.140 --> 00:17:55.220 for many, many reasons 282 00:17:55.220 --> 00:17:56.340 because they divided us 283 00:17:57.120 --> 00:17:58.240 occupation-wise. 284 00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:01.000 So for example, a lot of... 285 00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:01.880 I don't know whether you know 286 00:18:01.880 --> 00:18:03.620 but in Malaysia we have three major groups 287 00:18:03.620 --> 00:18:05.800 of three different ethnic groups. 288 00:18:06.600 --> 00:18:08.920 We have Malays, which are dominant, 289 00:18:09.120 --> 00:18:10.320 sort of about 50%. 290 00:18:10.320 --> 00:18:12.600 We have Chinese, about 30%. 291 00:18:12.600 --> 00:18:16.180 And Indians, about 10%. 292 00:18:16.180 --> 00:18:18.900 A very small number of indigenous people. 293 00:18:19.400 --> 00:18:20.680 And we have the category, 294 00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:22.620 which we all affectionately call the DLLs, 295 00:18:23.260 --> 00:18:24.160 the Dunn-Lyne line, 296 00:18:24.220 --> 00:18:25.220 which means the others. 297 00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:29.020 We actually have forms, you know, 298 00:18:29.040 --> 00:18:31.840 that have your name, your address, da-da-da. 299 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:32.940 And then you have, 300 00:18:32.940 --> 00:18:34.940 are you Malay, Chinese, Indian, or others? 301 00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:38.520 And I've been half tempted to mark others, you know? 302 00:18:39.940 --> 00:18:40.800 Very, very tempted. 303 00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:41.840 I've tried that before 304 00:18:41.840 --> 00:18:44.880 but it confused the person at the counter so much 305 00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:46.120 I felt so sorry for her. 306 00:18:47.820 --> 00:18:49.020 The reason is, 307 00:18:50.100 --> 00:18:51.340 I'm three quarters Indian, 308 00:18:53.140 --> 00:18:54.600 a quarter Malay. 309 00:18:55.560 --> 00:18:56.760 So what does that mean to me? 310 00:18:58.060 --> 00:18:59.220 Well, I look Indian 311 00:18:59.740 --> 00:19:02.920 but I'm actually put in the statistics as Malay. 312 00:19:02.940 --> 00:19:06.540 I've been prescribed that category of being Malay. 313 00:19:07.740 --> 00:19:10.560 Whether one likes it or dislikes it is a different matter 314 00:19:10.560 --> 00:19:12.920 because the Malay population is very dominant, 315 00:19:12.980 --> 00:19:13.780 has a lot of power, 316 00:19:13.820 --> 00:19:15.080 so who wouldn't want to be Malay? 317 00:19:16.060 --> 00:19:16.500 Right? 318 00:19:16.600 --> 00:19:18.440 I spent half my childhood going, 319 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:19.460 yes, yes, I'm Malay. 320 00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:21.040 And it was very clear, 321 00:19:21.100 --> 00:19:21.960 I mean, you can tell. 322 00:19:24.300 --> 00:19:25.160 You can tell. 323 00:19:27.580 --> 00:19:30.400 The divide is so deep again 324 00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:32.800 that traditionally, 325 00:19:32.800 --> 00:19:36.700 political parties have been organized along ethnic lines. 326 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:38.460 So you have UMNO, 327 00:19:38.680 --> 00:19:40.200 that looks after the Malay interests. 328 00:19:40.620 --> 00:19:41.880 You have MCA, 329 00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:43.060 Malaysian Chinese Association, 330 00:19:43.520 --> 00:19:45.140 that looks after Chinese interests. 331 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:46.360 You have MIC, 332 00:19:46.560 --> 00:19:48.900 which looks after Indian interests. 333 00:19:49.220 --> 00:19:50.960 And you have the DLLs, 334 00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:52.180 the Dunline Lines, 335 00:19:52.340 --> 00:19:53.120 the others. 336 00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:55.840 So the ruling coalition at the moment 337 00:19:55.840 --> 00:19:57.760 is made up of three parties 338 00:19:57.760 --> 00:20:01.320 that are looking after the needs 339 00:20:01.320 --> 00:20:02.780 of three different ethnic groups. 340 00:20:02.800 --> 00:20:04.400 So you can imagine the kind of 341 00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:06.260 minestrone soup we have, 342 00:20:06.380 --> 00:20:09.100 that we deal with in Malaysia. 343 00:20:11.800 --> 00:20:12.980 Language is another big divide. 344 00:20:13.520 --> 00:20:15.020 Of course, we have Bahasa Malaysia, 345 00:20:15.340 --> 00:20:16.520 which is the national language. 346 00:20:16.780 --> 00:20:18.080 But each ethnic group, 347 00:20:18.220 --> 00:20:20.500 very proudly and rightly so, 348 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:24.660 speaks Chinese, Indian or Malay. 349 00:20:24.840 --> 00:20:26.560 What that does though is that 350 00:20:26.560 --> 00:20:29.760 it makes organizing very, very difficult. 351 00:20:30.540 --> 00:20:32.120 I've had to do trainings, 352 00:20:32.120 --> 00:20:33.860 because I do training with grassroots groups, 353 00:20:34.840 --> 00:20:36.280 and run trainings, 354 00:20:36.360 --> 00:20:37.840 and this is in my own country, 355 00:20:38.020 --> 00:20:39.720 and have to use, 356 00:20:39.820 --> 00:20:40.440 pardon me, 357 00:20:41.120 --> 00:20:43.700 have to use two other translators. 358 00:20:44.980 --> 00:20:48.000 One for Tamil and then one for Cantonese. 359 00:20:48.300 --> 00:20:50.140 I can speak a smidgen of both, 360 00:20:50.300 --> 00:20:52.600 but it doesn't help if you're trying to do 361 00:20:53.120 --> 00:20:54.960 healing kind of trainings. 362 00:20:55.900 --> 00:20:56.940 That's just not enough. 363 00:20:59.200 --> 00:20:59.680 The... 364 00:21:01.060 --> 00:21:01.540 What... 365 00:21:01.540 --> 00:21:03.220 The British were very clever actually. 366 00:21:03.600 --> 00:21:07.380 They kept the Malays politically powerful, 367 00:21:08.780 --> 00:21:11.240 but economically not. 368 00:21:12.080 --> 00:21:15.040 Now the Chinese were kept economically powerful, 369 00:21:15.280 --> 00:21:16.620 but politically not. 370 00:21:17.100 --> 00:21:20.180 So you can imagine the forces 371 00:21:20.180 --> 00:21:21.440 that are fighting each other. 372 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:25.480 I mean there are two major, major political forces going there. 373 00:21:25.520 --> 00:21:28.240 One economic and one political. 374 00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:30.800 Now, 375 00:21:31.540 --> 00:21:32.000 we... 376 00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:33.900 So that's two issues there already. 377 00:21:34.500 --> 00:21:36.520 That we have deeply divided groups, 378 00:21:36.740 --> 00:21:39.040 and how we get defined is also quite tricky. 379 00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:41.000 I have an auntie 380 00:21:41.540 --> 00:21:44.040 who was born to Chinese, 381 00:21:44.260 --> 00:21:45.180 a Chinese family. 382 00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:49.180 But they were killed I think. 383 00:21:49.760 --> 00:21:51.520 Yeah, they were killed, 384 00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:54.060 and therefore she was adopted by a Malay family. 385 00:21:55.240 --> 00:21:57.800 And when we were talking one day, 386 00:21:57.880 --> 00:21:59.020 you know we were talking about something, 387 00:21:59.020 --> 00:22:01.580 and she saw a group of Chinese boys walk past, 388 00:22:01.700 --> 00:22:02.000 and she says, 389 00:22:02.080 --> 00:22:03.280 Oh that other race, 390 00:22:04.340 --> 00:22:05.000 you know? 391 00:22:05.300 --> 00:22:06.060 And I said, 392 00:22:06.100 --> 00:22:07.540 What race do you mean? 393 00:22:07.900 --> 00:22:09.320 What race is it that you mean? 394 00:22:09.340 --> 00:22:11.420 Because she identifies with being Malay. 395 00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:12.780 And it's very powerful to do that. 396 00:22:13.360 --> 00:22:15.480 And then to watch a group of Chinese people going by 397 00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:17.280 and calling them Bangsa Asing, 398 00:22:17.340 --> 00:22:18.980 which means the foreign race. 399 00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:21.400 Now in Malaysia again, 400 00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:22.540 the word Bangsa 401 00:22:23.600 --> 00:22:24.840