WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:04.520 We'll start this formally in a couple of shakes of a lamb's tail. 2 00:00:05.540 --> 00:00:08.500 I've been asked to remind you, you've got to fill in your forms, 3 00:00:08.620 --> 00:00:14.080 which are either about your person, in close proximity to your posterior, 4 00:00:14.580 --> 00:00:16.860 or they're up the back on the way out. 5 00:00:17.100 --> 00:00:20.920 If you don't fill them in, the organisers come round to your place and let your tyres down. 6 00:00:22.360 --> 00:00:25.140 Also, anyone afflicted with a mobile phone, 7 00:00:25.880 --> 00:00:29.220 would you be kind enough to turn it off? 8 00:00:30.100 --> 00:00:30.620 Because... 9 00:00:32.020 --> 00:00:32.540 Presumably... 10 00:00:32.540 --> 00:00:35.000 Turn all your mobiles off? 11 00:00:35.100 --> 00:00:37.780 Turn off your pacemakers, anything else electrical. 12 00:00:40.120 --> 00:00:42.640 And so what's going to happen this morning, 13 00:00:42.680 --> 00:00:47.040 in just a minute when Al has been fitted with his suppository microphone, 14 00:00:47.380 --> 00:00:51.720 is we're going to have the compulsive culture chat, 15 00:00:51.820 --> 00:00:54.360 and we're doing it as a wireless programme as well. 16 00:00:55.240 --> 00:00:59.000 So it'll go out pretty much as is, 17 00:00:59.000 --> 00:00:59.980 as a late-night live. 18 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:02.060 Next week or shortly thereafter. 19 00:01:03.680 --> 00:01:05.900 And so the format is, 20 00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:12.300 Tim and Alfred and John and Anne will leap to the podium. 21 00:01:12.580 --> 00:01:15.060 They'll give us a riveting five or six minutes, 22 00:01:15.140 --> 00:01:18.220 no more, or you'll be dealt with. 23 00:01:18.500 --> 00:01:22.900 And then we'll have a brief chat amongst themselves, 24 00:01:22.980 --> 00:01:26.740 and then please rush to the microphones. 25 00:01:27.320 --> 00:01:29.660 How many have we got, Mark? 26 00:01:31.620 --> 00:01:32.060 One. 27 00:01:32.220 --> 00:01:32.520 One. 28 00:01:32.580 --> 00:01:32.860 One microphone. 29 00:01:33.380 --> 00:01:34.520 Well, that seems democratic. 30 00:01:35.040 --> 00:01:35.480 Okay. 31 00:01:35.740 --> 00:01:36.660 There it is. 32 00:01:37.260 --> 00:01:42.740 And you can then criticise, question, whatever. 33 00:01:43.000 --> 00:01:44.080 Whatever takes your... 34 00:01:45.580 --> 00:01:46.940 Whatever you want to do, really. 35 00:01:47.580 --> 00:01:48.940 So, are we all wired up? 36 00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:50.060 Hot to trot? 37 00:01:51.540 --> 00:01:51.980 Righto. 38 00:01:54.920 --> 00:01:55.880 Simon, are you right? 39 00:01:55.940 --> 00:01:57.700 Are we okay for we're recording? 40 00:01:57.900 --> 00:01:59.220 We'll be out to her as well. 41 00:02:00.720 --> 00:02:01.660 Well, the panel... 42 00:02:01.660 --> 00:02:03.480 Tim, will you please be quiet? 43 00:02:04.440 --> 00:02:06.120 Just because you're the King of Adelaide, 44 00:02:06.140 --> 00:02:06.860 I mean, what's happening? 45 00:02:12.100 --> 00:02:12.920 Where are we? 46 00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:14.180 This is the Bookman Hall. 47 00:02:14.360 --> 00:02:15.120 Who was Bookman? 48 00:02:15.180 --> 00:02:16.180 I know all the others. 49 00:02:16.300 --> 00:02:16.980 Who was Bookman? 50 00:02:17.060 --> 00:02:17.340 Do you know? 51 00:02:18.580 --> 00:02:19.280 Who's Bookman? 52 00:02:20.700 --> 00:02:21.460 I don't know. 53 00:02:21.480 --> 00:02:21.960 You don't know. 54 00:02:22.060 --> 00:02:22.320 Great. 55 00:02:25.520 --> 00:02:26.240 A benefactor. 56 00:02:26.240 --> 00:02:26.360 A benefactor. 57 00:02:28.460 --> 00:02:29.560 Welcome to the 58 00:02:29.560 --> 00:02:35.420 Bookman Hall in Adelaide for another amazing event in the Festival of Ideas. 59 00:02:35.580 --> 00:02:38.960 Now, this session is about stuff and desire. 60 00:02:40.100 --> 00:02:44.780 The market model of compulsive consumption permeates our culture on every level. 61 00:02:45.340 --> 00:02:47.340 Perhaps it was ever thus. 62 00:02:47.340 --> 00:02:53.100 Perhaps Tim will tell us what the fossil record tells us about obsessive compulsive behaviour. 63 00:02:53.940 --> 00:02:59.420 But the triumph of industrial processes over scarcity has put it up to hyperspeed. 64 00:02:59.560 --> 00:03:01.060 I want it now. 65 00:03:01.320 --> 00:03:05.980 I remember telling Kerry Packer once that he reminded me of the joke of the 14 stone parrot, 66 00:03:06.480 --> 00:03:08.500 Polly wants a cracker, write everything now. 67 00:03:09.060 --> 00:03:12.780 And I think that's pretty much a universal statement, isn't it? 68 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:18.620 Now in this context, it's a bit hard to see addictions to drugs and gambling as seriously 69 00:03:18.620 --> 00:03:23.400 happening activities when they're little more, it seems to me, than exaggerations of the 70 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:26.660 way we're all trained and primed to act. 71 00:03:26.760 --> 00:03:29.540 We're endlessly cued to want more and to consider the consequences. 72 00:03:29.560 --> 00:03:35.620 And to consume more and to dream about the perfect life we will lead as a consequence. 73 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:45.040 Now, individuals who take these cues perhaps a little too seriously get labelled as addicts. 74 00:03:45.740 --> 00:03:51.460 Ladies and gentlemen, we have four distinguished panellists, Tim Flambory, Alfred McCoy, John 75 00:03:51.460 --> 00:03:53.140 O'Connor and Ann Roach. 76 00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:58.640 Each of them will make a brief statement and then we shall interact with the audience. 77 00:03:59.480 --> 00:04:05.000 Tim has been introduced repeatedly in the last few days, so I don't propose going into 78 00:04:05.900 --> 00:04:11.160 great details about this extraordinary fellow, except to say that Tim is addicted to writing 79 00:04:11.160 --> 00:04:11.580 books. 80 00:04:11.900 --> 00:04:16.040 I know this because I have to interview him every five or six weeks when his latest one 81 00:04:16.040 --> 00:04:16.680 comes out. 82 00:04:17.840 --> 00:04:23.680 And Tim, I hope that you will in fact get us on the right path by convincing us that 83 00:04:24.340 --> 00:04:28.620 the behaviour patterns, the compulsion that we're going to be discussing is the most important 84 00:04:28.640 --> 00:04:35.200 It is not a new invention, but in fact is readily apparent to any paleontologist that 85 00:04:35.200 --> 00:04:35.920 kicks a rock over. 86 00:04:36.100 --> 00:04:39.000 Ladies and gentlemen, the extraordinary Tim Flannery. 87 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:54.260 Well, I suppose my interest in the compulsive societies is going to be quite different from 88 00:04:54.260 --> 00:04:58.520 the other speakers that you'll hear today, who I think will be dealing more directly with 89 00:04:58.520 --> 00:04:58.620 you. 90 00:04:58.620 --> 00:05:00.940 I'm not going to be talking about the issues of drugs and addiction and that sort of thing. 91 00:05:01.620 --> 00:05:09.400 I'm an evolutionary biologist and my interest in the compulsive society and addictive behaviours, 92 00:05:09.400 --> 00:05:12.480 if you want, is really an evolutionary one. 93 00:05:12.860 --> 00:05:21.700 In the sense that I see that particular behaviour pattern arising from a mismatch between the 94 00:05:21.700 --> 00:05:26.880 sort of things that evolution built us to do and the sort of things that we find ourselves 95 00:05:26.880 --> 00:05:28.380 doing in everyday society. 96 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:36.320 And I carry out small experiments on myself in this sort of context, not with taking drugs 97 00:05:36.320 --> 00:05:41.580 or if I do, I try not to inhale, but more with the way I live. 98 00:05:42.260 --> 00:05:48.400 And every now and again, I'll disappear out of the city and go and live in a place where 99 00:05:48.400 --> 00:05:55.000 there is no mains power and no form of heating and no fast food and no cars, and I'll simply 100 00:05:55.000 --> 00:05:56.480 live for a few weeks. 101 00:05:56.480 --> 00:06:04.180 And I come back having shed about five kilograms, deeply contented, feeling as if the time has 102 00:06:04.180 --> 00:06:06.660 vanished, and I haven't done anything much. 103 00:06:06.860 --> 00:06:12.640 Yes, I've missed the things that the city has to offer, but in a sense, trying to do 104 00:06:12.640 --> 00:06:17.800 that is trying to live the life that this body was put together to live, in a sense. 105 00:06:18.260 --> 00:06:26.120 Even if we take our genus, we probably go back some three million years living a life that 106 00:06:26.120 --> 00:06:26.460 was dead. 107 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:37.600 I'm playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing 108 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:47.960 two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing 109 00:06:47.960 --> 00:06:49.240 two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing 110 00:06:49.240 --> 00:06:49.720 two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing 111 00:06:49.720 --> 00:06:49.900 two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing 112 00:06:49.900 --> 00:06:50.500 two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing 113 00:06:50.500 --> 00:06:51.040 two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing 114 00:06:51.040 --> 00:06:51.060 two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing two playing 115 00:06:51.060 --> 00:06:55.280 or else, and very brief moments of sexual activity, but the rest of it is just eating. 116 00:06:56.680 --> 00:07:01.720 Carnivores, you'll see them spend most of their time sleeping. They'll get up every now and again 117 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:07.940 and hunt, and again, even more rarely display some sexual behaviour, but most of the time they're 118 00:07:07.940 --> 00:07:13.580 spending just sleeping, digesting their meal, trying to save energy before the next big effort. 119 00:07:14.520 --> 00:07:20.900 The primates are different. We spend, if you look at baboons or any species wild out there, 120 00:07:20.900 --> 00:07:24.760 they spend a reasonable amount of their time eating, but perhaps a third or so, 121 00:07:25.700 --> 00:07:31.180 and they spend a fair bit of time resting, doing nothing, but they also spend a very large amount 122 00:07:31.180 --> 00:07:39.360 of time socialising, grooming, sexual behaviour, that sort of thing. And human beings, I think, 123 00:07:39.400 --> 00:07:46.500 in our innermost evolutionary being, are very much in that mould. We need a daily round, if you want, 124 00:07:46.580 --> 00:07:49.060 that lets us fulfil all of the 125 00:07:50.320 --> 00:07:50.800 desires. 126 00:07:50.900 --> 00:07:57.080 All the desires that evolution's created in us in order to live fully and properly. So we need some socialising, 127 00:07:57.260 --> 00:08:02.360 some chopping of wood, some cooking, and some resting as well. 128 00:08:04.200 --> 00:08:09.940 And that's what I've tried to do when I go away from the city and try to explore that evolutionary 129 00:08:10.960 --> 00:08:13.560 perspective and give myself a break as well from things. 130 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:19.280 And in that context, I find it very difficult to conceive of compulsive or addictive behaviours. 131 00:08:19.320 --> 00:08:20.880 It's simply a round of life that you're in. 132 00:08:20.900 --> 00:08:20.920 It's a very complex world, and I think that's what's happened to us. 133 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:22.220 And I think that's why we're in tune with living. 134 00:08:23.340 --> 00:08:30.400 It seems to me that what's happened in the cities of the world is that technology has slowly robbed us of the capacity 135 00:08:30.400 --> 00:08:34.540 to usefully do a number of things that our bodies have been built to do. 136 00:08:35.640 --> 00:08:44.160 Everything from cars to fast food to entertainment to global positioning systems, hand calculators, 137 00:08:44.220 --> 00:08:49.780 every little gizmo you can think of is robbing you of the chance to interface with the world in a way that evolution 138 00:08:49.780 --> 00:08:50.880 has been able to do. 139 00:08:50.900 --> 00:08:52.800 And that's what I've built you to gain some satisfaction from. 140 00:08:53.460 --> 00:08:59.720 And when I look at people in the very largest cities of the world, such as New York, you actually notice a shift. 141 00:09:00.020 --> 00:09:04.480 There is a psychological shift, I think, in many of the people who live their lives in those big cities. 142 00:09:04.800 --> 00:09:12.740 And it is a shift towards a compulsive sort of behaviour that I see most strongly expressed in things like zoo animals. 143 00:09:13.880 --> 00:09:20.880 People typically have rather short attention spans, but when they're focused, they have a very intense burst of interest. 144 00:09:24.220 --> 00:09:28.900 Their movements, it seems to me, are rather stereotyped. 145 00:09:29.340 --> 00:09:35.900 Their activities are very, very limited in number and usually focused around a series of technological gadgets. 146 00:09:38.180 --> 00:09:41.720 And it seems to me that that's sort of a compulsive society in a sense. 147 00:09:41.780 --> 00:09:49.760 And it's not surprising for me that people who live in that society that don't have access to the endorsed forms of leisure 148 00:09:49.760 --> 00:09:57.760 and those forms of leisure and escape that cost something and are socially acceptable will go and take drugs. 149 00:09:58.080 --> 00:10:03.300 It seems to me that's just another sort of expression of the same sort of illness, if you want, 150 00:10:03.340 --> 00:10:07.420 the same sort of psychosis that living out of sync with your evolutionary past produces. 151 00:10:12.680 --> 00:10:18.020 So to me, it's part of what I call the human, the feedlotting of humanity. 152 00:10:18.020 --> 00:10:22.100 We do it with our cows and we've very successfully done it with ourselves. 153 00:10:22.680 --> 00:10:29.780 So I think that it's the sort of society we've built that doesn't recognise some of the really base and very simple needs 154 00:10:29.780 --> 00:10:34.760 that evolution's built into us that builds a compulsive, drug-taking society. 155 00:10:35.380 --> 00:10:39.220 Now I don't know whether anyone else is going to violently disagree, perhaps they will, 156 00:10:39.300 --> 00:10:42.100 but I think I've had my five minutes, so it's time to sit down. 157 00:10:50.400 --> 00:10:51.480 Thanks Tim. 158 00:10:51.780 --> 00:10:54.400 Al McCoy is a fascinating bloke. 159 00:10:54.460 --> 00:11:00.340 He wrote a book in 1972 called The Politics of Heroin in South East Asia. 160 00:11:00.920 --> 00:11:06.680 It was greatly admired, except by the CIA who tried to suppress it. 161 00:11:07.060 --> 00:11:15.100 He's continued to make major contributions to the debate on drug use in Australia and around the world, 162 00:11:15.220 --> 00:11:18.000 which I regard as the most catastrophic failure in the history of the world. 163 00:11:18.020 --> 00:11:20.620 It's the failure of public policy of the last century. 164 00:11:21.140 --> 00:11:25.020 And it makes the debate ever more sophisticated. 165 00:11:25.560 --> 00:11:32.980 He's worked as a consultant and commentator for an award-winning ABC documentary on the global heroin traffic, 166 00:11:33.260 --> 00:11:35.200 Dealing with the Demon, which you may have seen, 167 00:11:36.020 --> 00:11:40.780 and has forever been called as an expert witness and consultant to commissions of inquiry. 168 00:11:41.140 --> 00:11:43.040 We now call him to the lectern. 169 00:11:43.140 --> 00:11:46.020 Ladies and gentlemen, Dr Alfred W. McCoy. 170 00:11:53.860 --> 00:11:58.080 30 years ago when I left the, 171 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:00.260 my carrel at the Yale university library 172 00:12:00.260 --> 00:12:03.140 where I was then a graduate student in Southeast Asian history 173 00:12:03.140 --> 00:12:08.360 and I went to Saigon to tear the mask off the nexus of CIA complicity 174 00:12:08.360 --> 00:12:12.620 and South Vietnamese corruption in the traffic and heroin that had addicted 175 00:12:12.620 --> 00:12:15.900 1 third of the US combat forces fighting in Vietnam. 176 00:12:15.900 --> 00:12:21.820 I had a night on the town to investigate the traffic with a friend of mine who was a stringer for the New York Times. 177 00:12:22.020 --> 00:12:29.900 And we went from bar to bar, from the honky-tonk bars on Trudeau Street to the tin sheds at the edge of the canals at the city 178 00:12:29.900 --> 00:12:34.520 where they process combat infantry battalions through sexual service by the company. 179 00:12:34.820 --> 00:12:41.960 And at every stop, we refused sex and alcohol, and we asked for heroin, and it came in phenomenal quantities. 180 00:12:41.960 --> 00:12:47.840 And as I bought and bought, at the end of the evening, my pockets and my jungle jacket were bulging with these vials of drug. 181 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:53.800 When I got back to my hotel room, suddenly I was struck with the enormous stupidity of what I'd just done. 182 00:12:53.880 --> 00:12:59.120 Here I was, about to expose the nexus of power and its corruption, the traffic of drugs, 183 00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:02.420 and I was in possession of criminal quantities of the same substance. 184 00:13:03.160 --> 00:13:07.180 And so I rushed into the bathroom and took these little identical vials with their screw caps, 185 00:13:07.340 --> 00:13:11.220 and I frantically unscrewed the tops of the vials and began scraping it out 186 00:13:11.220 --> 00:13:11.940 and flushing it down the floor. 187 00:13:11.960 --> 00:13:19.840 And I got to a point where, one moment, I had a nice kind of stack of heroin at the tip of my finger, 188 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:25.340 and to quote the words of our late former President William Clinton, 189 00:13:25.520 --> 00:13:29.620 I can assure you, as he would say in the United States, my fellow Americans, I did not inhale. 190 00:13:30.620 --> 00:13:34.260 Now, I don't know, and that's true, I didn't inhale. 191 00:13:34.540 --> 00:13:38.340 I didn't trust myself, I didn't trust the drug, and I don't know why. 192 00:13:38.640 --> 00:13:41.840 I have no idea what the restraint was. 193 00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:45.700 And I don't, therefore, understand why others use it. 194 00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:51.260 And if I can't understand that decision, that moment of decision, upon which I've reflected often in myself, 195 00:13:51.480 --> 00:13:54.260 how can I possibly understand why others do? 196 00:13:54.420 --> 00:14:04.740 And actually, more broadly, as a social historian, I am deeply suspicious of psychological first causes 197 00:14:04.740 --> 00:14:06.540 when explaining mass drug addiction. 198 00:14:06.780 --> 00:14:11.160 I think it ultimately, if you say it's a matter of weakness, 199 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:11.940 I think it ultimately, if you say it's a matter of weakness, 200 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:16.800 psychological, that's inherent somehow in the human psychology or in human cultures, 201 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:21.840 it leads you then down a very dangerous road, which I think I'll describe right now. 202 00:14:22.100 --> 00:14:26.640 As a social historian, I prefer to search for the social and material frameworks 203 00:14:26.640 --> 00:14:29.180 which bound human behavior. 204 00:14:29.560 --> 00:14:34.160 And within those bounds, there are social pressures and individual moral choices, 205 00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:40.380 which I don't fully understand, and which I leave to theologians, psychologists, and psychiatrists, 206 00:14:40.400 --> 00:14:41.300 and I frankly, 207 00:14:41.300 --> 00:14:43.860 I'm not too impressed with what they do with it. 208 00:14:43.980 --> 00:14:46.620 So I stick with the material structures. 209 00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:54.100 And let me offer you my sense of the structures which have conditioned modern drug abuse 210 00:14:54.100 --> 00:14:58.560 and which frame these choices, these compulsions, which are the topic of this session. 211 00:14:59.680 --> 00:15:03.340 Until the early modern age, all societies had traditional drugs. 212 00:15:03.640 --> 00:15:05.500 Kava in the Pacific, 213 00:15:05.700 --> 00:15:07.420 Betel in Southeast Asia, 214 00:15:07.500 --> 00:15:09.260 opium, alcohol, and coca. 215 00:15:09.340 --> 00:15:10.860 And in all societies, 216 00:15:10.860 --> 00:15:13.140 use ranged from the medicinal to the recreational, 217 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:18.220 and there were strict social practices and pressures that determined the conventions of use 218 00:15:18.220 --> 00:15:20.220 for each of these drugs in every society. 219 00:15:20.700 --> 00:15:22.380 Starting in the 18th century, 220 00:15:22.560 --> 00:15:28.200 the rise of the modern state with science and systems of social control changed drug abuse. 221 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:33.820 In the 19th century, the growth of the modern brewing, distilling, and pharmaceutical industries 222 00:15:33.820 --> 00:15:39.820 brought stronger drugs, transnational trade in these drugs, and aggressive marketing. 223 00:15:39.820 --> 00:15:43.080 With the rise of drug prohibition movements, 224 00:15:43.220 --> 00:15:47.580 the movements to eradicate these now aggressively marketed and much abused drugs, 225 00:15:47.700 --> 00:15:49.280 in the early 20th century, 226 00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:53.560 the moralism of the Protestant Christian churches in England and America 227 00:15:53.560 --> 00:15:59.600 and the status ideology of social Darwinism merged to stigmatize drug use as pernicious. 228 00:16:00.040 --> 00:16:05.400 Within the ideology of social Darwinism, which was dominant in the West in the late 19th century, 229 00:16:05.540 --> 00:16:08.240 there was an equation between racial development, 230 00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:10.240 or one's position in a racial hierarchy, 231 00:16:10.380 --> 00:16:12.180 and certain extrinsic features, 232 00:16:12.540 --> 00:16:16.060 the color of skin, the shape and size of skull, 233 00:16:16.340 --> 00:16:19.100 the kinds of tools, and the kinds of drugs used. 234 00:16:19.500 --> 00:16:21.660 Under the doctrine of social engineering, 235 00:16:21.980 --> 00:16:27.480 the modern state would uplift colonized people and immigrant populations in the metropole 236 00:16:27.480 --> 00:16:30.160 to the level of the dominant Caucasian societies. 237 00:16:30.640 --> 00:16:36.400 In the United States, drugs were thus prohibited because of their racial characteristics. 238 00:16:36.400 --> 00:16:37.220 For example, 239 00:16:37.220 --> 00:16:40.240 whiskey in the saloon was the bane of the Irish, 240 00:16:40.440 --> 00:16:46.120 who were stigmatized as culturally habitually inclined to drunkenness. 241 00:16:46.800 --> 00:16:52.200 The beer in the beer garden was synonymous with the German-American community, 242 00:16:52.340 --> 00:16:57.660 which as the largest non-American community was a genuine threat to the dominant culture. 243 00:16:57.840 --> 00:17:00.020 Opium, of course, was synonymous with Chinese. 244 00:17:00.380 --> 00:17:02.980 So following this racial typology, 245 00:17:03.100 --> 00:17:04.000 beer was bad, 246 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:05.300 whiskey was worse, 247 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:07.200 and opium was worse to live with. 248 00:17:08.700 --> 00:17:12.420 This typology, of course, runs in defiance of medical fact. 249 00:17:12.660 --> 00:17:16.080 The simple medical fact that among all of the drugs that I listed, 250 00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:18.780 alcohol is the most dangerous. 251 00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:22.140 The withdrawal from high levels of abuse of drugs 252 00:17:22.140 --> 00:17:25.520 entails medical supervision for just one, alcohol. 253 00:17:26.420 --> 00:17:30.240 Drug withdrawal from alcohol is the only one that is potentially fatal. 254 00:17:30.440 --> 00:17:33.260 It's the only one that is abused, 255 00:17:33.380 --> 00:17:36.040 is genuinely destructive of the body. 256 00:17:37.220 --> 00:17:39.120 Though social Darwinism has faded, 257 00:17:39.680 --> 00:17:43.580 its social engineering is preserved today in the UN drug control program 258 00:17:43.580 --> 00:17:45.400 and the United States drug war. 259 00:17:45.700 --> 00:17:51.140 In the United States, this racial typology of drugs is preserved today. 260 00:17:51.220 --> 00:17:53.140 In the United States today, under US law, 261 00:17:53.460 --> 00:17:55.660 whites, sorry, in the United States, 262 00:17:55.700 --> 00:17:57.160 whites use cocaine powder, 263 00:17:57.320 --> 00:18:00.900 and African Americans use the crystal form crack cocaine. 264 00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:01.860 They're exactly the same. 265 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:06.100 But the penalty for the possession of crack is ten times, 266 00:18:06.100 --> 00:18:09.080 ten times higher than possession of powder. 267 00:18:10.860 --> 00:18:14.960 As a result, one third of the African American male population 268 00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:17.360 in the United States between the ages of 18 and 32 269 00:18:17.360 --> 00:18:18.780 is in the criminal justice system. 270 00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:23.280 They emerge from this system brutalized and stigmatized as convicts, 271 00:18:23.300 --> 00:18:25.160 denied civil rights for the rest of their life. 272 00:18:25.360 --> 00:18:29.400 It's part of a problematic racial relationship in the United States, 273 00:18:29.420 --> 00:18:33.080 problematic, a legacy of social Darwinism, 274 00:18:33.120 --> 00:18:35.100 and a system of social controls. 275 00:18:36.100 --> 00:18:39.240 So with that perspective, 276 00:18:40.080 --> 00:18:42.140 hoping to frame our inquiries, 277 00:18:42.220 --> 00:18:47.420 I'll leave the deeper search for psychological and moral compulsions to others. 278 00:18:47.480 --> 00:18:47.780 Thank you. 279 00:18:57.080 --> 00:19:02.020 One of Australia's leading intellectuals is a, 280 00:19:03.060 --> 00:19:05.240 what is a Liberal Party MP. 281 00:19:06.140 --> 00:19:06.940 Tony Abbott. 282 00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:08.600 And he announced the other day that, 283 00:19:09.900 --> 00:19:14.560 he announced the other day that poverty is a consequence of addictive behavior, 284 00:19:15.320 --> 00:19:19.020 either alcohol or drugs or gambling. 285 00:19:19.180 --> 00:19:22.400 And so I'm fascinated to hear from Dr. John O'Connor, 286 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:26.280 who's a consultant psychologist specializing in addictive behaviors, 287 00:19:26.340 --> 00:19:31.040 because I know that he will confirm the postulates of Mr. Abbott. 288 00:19:31.420 --> 00:19:33.940 After all, he spent a lifetime studying them. 289 00:19:34.560 --> 00:19:36.020 Although I must warn you, 290 00:19:36.100 --> 00:19:38.140 he actually thinks environmental conditions 291 00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:42.900 and socio-political initiatives may have something to do with it. 292 00:19:43.360 --> 00:19:48.220 Dr. John combines clinical work with lecturing, training, research, 293 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:49.660 resource, policy development, 294 00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:53.440 and has oodles of consultancies with universities, industry, 295 00:19:53.780 --> 00:19:56.160 government departments, et cetera. 296 00:19:57.060 --> 00:19:59.780 His particular interest, I know, is gambling, 297 00:19:59.900 --> 00:20:03.120 but I suspect that John will range much wider than that. 298 00:20:03.180 --> 00:20:03.680 John. 299 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:13.740 Let me reframe the topic from the outset 300 00:20:13.740 --> 00:20:17.480 to give you the gist of my presentation and orientation. 301 00:20:18.580 --> 00:20:22.040 Let me reframe it as the consumer condition culture. 302 00:20:22.980 --> 00:20:24.540 Don't get too excited, Philip. 303 00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:28.700 Or for those lovers of alliteration amongst you, 304 00:20:28.900 --> 00:20:31.880 the Scenarian society would suffice. 305 00:20:32.120 --> 00:20:34.900 What I hear Alfred and many of you groan 306 00:20:34.900 --> 00:20:36.080 is he delivered a ridiculous, 307 00:20:36.080 --> 00:20:39.560 reductionist stimulus response psychology of their rats approach 308 00:20:39.560 --> 00:20:41.060 to such a broad-ranging topic. 309 00:20:41.460 --> 00:20:43.040 Well, no, not actually, 310 00:20:43.160 --> 00:20:46.920 because it was pigeons that Skinner likened to gamblers, 311 00:20:46.940 --> 00:20:48.160 not rats, so there. 312 00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:51.860 He drew the parallel in his conviction 313 00:20:51.860 --> 00:20:57.820 that random but, according to fixed probability, 314 00:20:58.180 --> 00:21:02.500 intermittent reinforcement could shape strong and persistent behavior 315 00:21:03.080 --> 00:21:04.780 in both animals and humans, 316 00:21:04.780 --> 00:21:06.260 and I tend to agree. 317 00:21:07.860 --> 00:21:11.800 I'm going to focus, and it is admittedly rather myopically, 318 00:21:12.020 --> 00:21:14.920 on the social engineering of our behaviors, 319 00:21:15.220 --> 00:21:18.560 because I believe, even though it's only a partial 320 00:21:18.560 --> 00:21:21.020 and admittedly unfashionable analysis, 321 00:21:21.400 --> 00:21:23.240 we ignore it at our peril, 322 00:21:23.300 --> 00:21:27.260 because our big brothers, the corporations and their media, 323 00:21:28.060 --> 00:21:30.180 certainly know the schedules of reinforcement 324 00:21:30.180 --> 00:21:32.040 to which many of us respond. 325 00:21:32.040 --> 00:21:36.300 And I don't want to speak about compulsions, 326 00:21:36.300 --> 00:21:38.400 that rather medicalized term, 327 00:21:38.500 --> 00:21:42.200 which really refers to anxiety-driven behaviors 328 00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:45.420 like hand washing and ritualistic behavior 329 00:21:45.420 --> 00:21:49.060 that a very small percentage of the population suffer from. 330 00:21:50.120 --> 00:21:54.040 I'd rather reframe it in terms of excessive appetites 331 00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:58.380 or what is perhaps normally referred to as addictions, 332 00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:01.040 but excessive appetites or strong inclinations. 333 00:22:02.520 --> 00:22:03.240 Overattachment. 334 00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:08.320 And here I owe a huge debt to the British psychologist Jim Orford, 335 00:22:08.380 --> 00:22:10.720 whom I believe has written the Bible of addiction studies 336 00:22:11.380 --> 00:22:15.440 in his book, Excessive Appetites, A Psychological View of Addiction. 337 00:22:18.180 --> 00:22:22.060 Excessive appetites are those behaviors which are repetitive, 338 00:22:22.320 --> 00:22:24.300 usually escalating, 339 00:22:26.060 --> 00:22:31.360 and to the cost of our engagement and other roles and commitments, 340 00:22:31.360 --> 00:22:31.960 and obligations, 341 00:22:33.360 --> 00:22:36.860 and they are favored and pursued with great enthusiasm 342 00:22:36.860 --> 00:22:40.240 because they are so rewarding. 343 00:22:41.860 --> 00:22:44.620 Initially, potently reinforcing. 344 00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:55.420 Therefore, it is easy to become overattached or overcommitted 345 00:22:55.420 --> 00:22:57.780 to a wide array of behaviors. 346 00:22:58.960 --> 00:22:59.860 Sex, 347 00:22:59.860 --> 00:23:01.580 poor Boswell, 348 00:23:01.840 --> 00:23:02.600 quote, 349 00:23:02.740 --> 00:23:05.780 I'm really in a state of daily excess just now, 350 00:23:05.940 --> 00:23:07.460 I must pull the reins, 351 00:23:07.800 --> 00:23:08.420 gambling, 352 00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:09.360 shopping, 353 00:23:09.780 --> 00:23:10.380 TV, 354 00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:11.920 Tim Tams, 355 00:23:11.940 --> 00:23:14.540 work, golf, alcohol, and other drugs, of course. 356 00:23:14.860 --> 00:23:18.960 And that's just my list of behaviors that I've struggled with over the years. 357 00:23:20.340 --> 00:23:24.740 I don't think Alfred and I are going to make good party animals, colleagues, are we? 358 00:23:25.380 --> 00:23:29.840 Look, if you want to, refer to them as horrible habits, as Mark Twain did. 359 00:23:29.860 --> 00:23:31.120 He said, 360 00:23:31.220 --> 00:23:34.540 these habits are not to be thrown out the top window willy-nilly, 361 00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:37.200 but need to be coaxed down the stairs, 362 00:23:37.320 --> 00:23:39.060 one step at a time, 363 00:23:39.100 --> 00:23:40.860 and shown the back door. 364 00:23:43.580 --> 00:23:47.840 And I don't think we need to fear excess per se. 365 00:23:48.220 --> 00:23:53.340 I think we all have inclinations to overindulge when something is enjoyable. 366 00:23:53.660 --> 00:23:59.180 And the oft-quoted paradox of moderation in all things, including moderation itself, 367 00:23:59.180 --> 00:24:01.360 has a lot to recommend it. 368 00:24:03.700 --> 00:24:12.300 I do, like Tim, I think our inclination to excess is not a peculiar human phenomenon. 369 00:24:12.580 --> 00:24:14.440 I see it displayed in animals. 370 00:24:14.540 --> 00:24:17.060 Just recently, last week in fact, in Brisbane, 371 00:24:17.260 --> 00:24:23.400 a kookaburra swooped and stole a bicky from the hand of my two and a half year old daughter. 372 00:24:23.660 --> 00:24:24.180 Why? 373 00:24:24.520 --> 00:24:26.880 Because tourists have been overfeeding the animals. 374 00:24:27.120 --> 00:24:28.040 The animals have think, 375 00:24:28.040 --> 00:24:29.540 this is a great lark, 376 00:24:29.620 --> 00:24:30.340 they hang around, 377 00:24:30.580 --> 00:24:33.280 their natural order is upset, 378 00:24:33.580 --> 00:24:38.960 and they begin to overeat on all the nasty things that we also enjoy. 379 00:24:40.780 --> 00:24:48.880 I believe restraints are a necessary antidote to our appetites. 380 00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:56.460 And in a well-functioning, well-oiled, socially coherent society, 381 00:24:56.460 --> 00:25:03.200 social restraints keep our appetites in balance most of the time, 382 00:25:03.340 --> 00:25:11.220 with rules and rituals that we all ascribe to because it works and life is pretty pleasant under those conditions. 383 00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:18.680 But if we dramatically or radically alter that balance, 384 00:25:18.800 --> 00:25:22.340 so the restraints are removed or manipulated, 385 00:25:23.560 --> 00:25:26.240 then we have multiple exams, 386 00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:29.400 and we have multiple examples of quite dramatic change in behaviour. 387 00:25:29.880 --> 00:25:34.160 You'll all be familiar with the numerous examples of indigenous people 388 00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:37.320 who have gone from relatively little drug use 389 00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:41.740 to very high and disturbing and damaging rates 390 00:25:41.740 --> 00:25:46.820 as a consequence of their social order being destabilised from colonisation. 391 00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:50.060 Historians tell us that the Industrial Revolution 392 00:25:51.240 --> 00:25:54.680 was in part responsible for the huge gin epidemic 393 00:25:54.680 --> 00:25:58.780 of 19th century England. 394 00:25:59.580 --> 00:26:03.660 And you question our politicians' commitment to research? 395 00:26:04.600 --> 00:26:09.400 Currently they are allowing a marvellous natural experiment to occur 396 00:26:09.400 --> 00:26:15.760 in relaxing the controls under which excessive gambling can flourish. 397 00:26:16.540 --> 00:26:18.280 They've allowed wide availability, 398 00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:22.260 within arms reach accessibility of the pokies with their intermittent reinforcement, 399 00:26:22.840 --> 00:26:24.660 highly automated rapid-fire, 400 00:26:24.680 --> 00:26:26.400 high rates of play, immediate feedback, 401 00:26:26.580 --> 00:26:28.440 and the rates of involvement, as you know, 402 00:26:28.560 --> 00:26:32.520 have absolutely soared and so far show no signs of peaking. 403 00:26:32.820 --> 00:26:36.360 All the players, the gambling industries, the hoteliers, 404 00:26:36.560 --> 00:26:41.360 the state government, seem equally hooked on gambling. 405 00:26:42.800 --> 00:26:48.740 Is technological development inherently implicated in fostering excessive appetites? 406 00:26:48.780 --> 00:26:50.560 Well, perhaps potentially, if indirectly, 407 00:26:50.920 --> 00:26:54.660 because rapid change does tend to destabilise, 408 00:26:54.680 --> 00:26:58.060 and therefore shifts the balance in our inclinations, 409 00:26:58.060 --> 00:27:00.840 our appetites, and the restraints on our behaviour. 410 00:27:01.260 --> 00:27:05.460 But technology could conceivably, given utopian goals, 411 00:27:05.600 --> 00:27:10.520 be used to structure a society in which we could choose from a smorgasbord of delights, 412 00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:13.120 moderately indulging in an array of desires, 413 00:27:13.360 --> 00:27:17.180 rather than in desperation for stimulation of fulfilment, 414 00:27:17.220 --> 00:27:20.280 putting all our appetitive eggs in the one basket. 415 00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:24.160 But under conditions, the current condition of slavery, 416 00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:26.560 slavish adherence to free market philosophies, 417 00:27:27.160 --> 00:27:29.440 its self-revealing and excessive appetite for profits, 418 00:27:29.660 --> 00:27:35.380 it seems more likely that technological advance will pose severe risks to us. 419 00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:40.680 Another topical technological advance at the moment, 420 00:27:40.920 --> 00:27:43.460 that of excessive internetting. 421 00:27:43.480 --> 00:27:49.220 That is the latest addiction to receive some considerable attention. 422 00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:53.660 And clients presenting with 423 00:27:54.160 --> 00:27:56.660 excessive internet involvement 424 00:27:57.500 --> 00:28:01.600 have been allocated several profiles so far. 425 00:28:01.820 --> 00:28:04.160 Those who are surfing for pornography, 426 00:28:04.840 --> 00:28:07.240 those who are developing relationships on the net, 427 00:28:07.380 --> 00:28:10.800 those who are obsessively engaging in online trading, 428 00:28:11.220 --> 00:28:13.480 those who are just surfing in general, 429 00:28:13.640 --> 00:28:15.180 and those who are playing games. 430 00:28:15.300 --> 00:28:20.020 Now, notice that there is nothing intrinsic to the internet about those behaviours. 431 00:28:20.120 --> 00:28:23.520 People have been engaging their excessive appetites 432 00:28:23.520 --> 00:28:25.660 in those areas before the internet. 433 00:28:25.960 --> 00:28:28.740 But technology in the form of the internet 434 00:28:28.740 --> 00:28:31.360 has a number of enabling factors such as 435 00:28:31.360 --> 00:28:34.240 anonymity, very individualistic, 436 00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:37.060 you pretend you're working to the rest of the family 437 00:28:37.060 --> 00:28:38.140 when in fact you're surfing, 438 00:28:38.460 --> 00:28:41.180 ease of access, accelerated intimacy, 439 00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:43.740 leading to uninhibited behaviour, 440 00:28:44.100 --> 00:28:48.280 and the distortion of time as you block out other reference points. 441 00:28:49.280 --> 00:28:53.300 In summary, we're going to have to learn to live with rapid technological innovation, 442 00:28:53.300 --> 00:28:53.720 obviously. 443 00:28:54.820 --> 00:28:58.420 We can question some of the desirability of some of the developments. 444 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:03.260 But I would say that a poorly engineered culture 445 00:29:03.260 --> 00:29:05.060 as we have currently got, 446 00:29:05.260 --> 00:29:07.540 or a cleverly, if you like, engineered one, 447 00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:12.460 engineered by those whose interest is in emptying our pockets, 448 00:29:12.780 --> 00:29:15.760 will see us excessively engaged. 449 00:29:20.120 --> 00:29:22.540 I think I'll do, leave it at that. Thank you very much. 450 00:29:23.300 --> 00:29:24.080 APPLAUSE 451 00:29:30.300 --> 00:29:33.620 The event is the Festival of Ideas. 452 00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:36.560 We are currently located at the Brookman Hall. 453 00:29:36.840 --> 00:29:40.220 The subject under discussion is the compulsive culture. 454 00:29:41.040 --> 00:29:43.960 Anne Roche is Professor and Director 455 00:29:43.960 --> 00:29:48.540 of the National Centre for Education and Training on Addiction 456 00:29:48.540 --> 00:29:52.020 here at Flinders University in South Australia. 457 00:29:52.280 --> 00:29:53.280 She is a professor 458 00:29:53.300 --> 00:29:56.900 with over 25 years' experience in the field of public health 459 00:29:56.900 --> 00:30:01.280 and has worked as a researcher, educator and policy analyst 460 00:30:01.280 --> 00:30:03.240 in various public health areas 461 00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:05.940 and has held numerous academic posts. 462 00:30:06.620 --> 00:30:08.800 Ladies and gentlemen, Anne Roche. 463 00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:10.520 APPLAUSE 464 00:30:15.780 --> 00:30:16.620 Thanks, Philip. 465 00:30:17.220 --> 00:30:20.240 One of the luxuries of going last in these sorts of presentations 466 00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:22.260 is you get a little bit of time to sit there 467 00:30:22.260 --> 00:30:24.020 re-juggling what you are going to say 468 00:30:24.020 --> 00:30:25.980 so that it in some way kind of echoes 469 00:30:25.980 --> 00:30:28.340 or at least resonates to some extent with the previous speakers. 470 00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:31.180 It seems to me that what we're seeking here 471 00:30:31.180 --> 00:30:33.960 is some kind of overarching and coordinating framework 472 00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:36.100 in which to put these competing sets of ideas 473 00:30:36.100 --> 00:30:38.660 or frameworks or paradigms that people see the world from. 474 00:30:38.940 --> 00:30:41.680 I'd put to you that there actually is no simple answer. 475 00:30:41.720 --> 00:30:43.240 There is no one particular discipline 476 00:30:43.240 --> 00:30:45.180 that holds this sort of solution 477 00:30:45.660 --> 00:30:48.000 to these complex phenomena that we're dealing with. 478 00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:51.020 So let me try and pull together some of the themes 479 00:30:51.020 --> 00:30:52.760 that have been covered by the previous speakers 480 00:30:52.760 --> 00:30:54.900 and perhaps start to formulate 481 00:30:54.900 --> 00:30:56.960 some kind of overarching model for you. 482 00:30:57.840 --> 00:31:02.240 Tim started off drawing from our experience 483 00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:04.240 from the animal world 484 00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:06.320 and models from zoology 485 00:31:06.320 --> 00:31:07.840 which are actually particularly useful to us. 486 00:31:07.940 --> 00:31:10.380 And if I can borrow some very nice juicy bits 487 00:31:10.380 --> 00:31:12.100 from Carl Kruselnitsky's work 488 00:31:12.100 --> 00:31:13.840 which you might well also be familiar with, 489 00:31:13.960 --> 00:31:15.200 he suggests to us this, 490 00:31:15.460 --> 00:31:18.240 that it's not just human beings that are plagued 491 00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:20.460 with these difficulties around using particular substances 492 00:31:20.460 --> 00:31:22.260 and craving for particular activities, 493 00:31:22.420 --> 00:31:23.340 but also animals. 494 00:31:23.600 --> 00:31:23.840 He says, 495 00:31:23.940 --> 00:31:27.160 ducks love to get high on narcotic plants, 496 00:31:27.420 --> 00:31:28.900 including the opium poppy. 497 00:31:29.300 --> 00:31:32.000 Jaguars in Colombia chew on the hallucinogenic bark 498 00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:32.880 of the yaha plant. 499 00:31:33.300 --> 00:31:34.540 And in Western Africa, 500 00:31:34.660 --> 00:31:36.060 wild bulls would dig up and eat 501 00:31:36.060 --> 00:31:38.260 hallucinogenic roots of the iboga plant. 502 00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:41.040 But there's a particularly interesting one 503 00:31:41.040 --> 00:31:42.320 I thought I'd share this one with you. 504 00:31:42.520 --> 00:31:44.600 The Siberian reindeer love eating 505 00:31:44.600 --> 00:31:46.560 the red-capped hallucinogenic mushroom. 506 00:31:47.040 --> 00:31:49.380 The Siberian shamans, or witch doctors, 507 00:31:49.380 --> 00:31:51.480 would also eat this particular sacred mushroom. 508 00:31:51.720 --> 00:31:53.080 And only a little bit of this drug 509 00:31:53.080 --> 00:31:54.080 would be used up in the body. 510 00:31:54.200 --> 00:31:55.940 Most of it passes out in the urine, 511 00:31:56.720 --> 00:31:57.780 as do most vitamins. 512 00:31:58.360 --> 00:32:00.600 So the Siberian shaman, 513 00:32:00.780 --> 00:32:01.940 then as a result of that, 514 00:32:01.960 --> 00:32:02.980 being highly efficient folk, 515 00:32:03.140 --> 00:32:04.480 would then also drink the urine 516 00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:05.860 so that they could have a second go 517 00:32:05.860 --> 00:32:07.200 at their hallucinogenic drug. 518 00:32:07.960 --> 00:32:09.080 Wait, it gets better. 519 00:32:09.220 --> 00:32:09.840 It gets better. 520 00:32:10.900 --> 00:32:12.460 That's really getting pissed, he suggests. 521 00:32:12.860 --> 00:32:13.840 But the reindeer, 522 00:32:14.040 --> 00:32:15.740 the reindeer know this trick too. 523 00:32:15.960 --> 00:32:16.660 In fact, 524 00:32:16.740 --> 00:32:18.460 travelers to that part of Siberia 525 00:32:18.460 --> 00:32:20.320 are warned not to urinate in the open. 526 00:32:20.380 --> 00:32:22.240 I presume this applies mainly to men. 527 00:32:22.560 --> 00:32:24.560 Because when the reindeer are around, 528 00:32:24.800 --> 00:32:26.780 Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer 529 00:32:26.780 --> 00:32:28.240 would try to drink the urine 530 00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:29.720 before it hits the ground. 531 00:32:32.940 --> 00:32:33.460 Enjoy. 532 00:32:36.440 --> 00:32:38.040 So it's not simply 533 00:32:38.040 --> 00:32:39.480 something that's unique 534 00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:41.400 and ubiquitous to human beings. 535 00:32:41.500 --> 00:32:43.740 Although it has been suggested by Ronald Segal 536 00:32:43.740 --> 00:32:45.740 that the pursuit of intoxication 537 00:32:45.740 --> 00:32:48.180 is such a ubiquitous component 538 00:32:48.180 --> 00:32:49.340 of human beings, 539 00:32:49.520 --> 00:32:50.760 that he ranks it up there 540 00:32:50.760 --> 00:32:53.140 along with hunger, thirst, and sex. 541 00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:55.640 So it's not an easy thing to discount 542 00:32:55.640 --> 00:32:56.960 by any means at all. 543 00:32:57.560 --> 00:32:58.780 And if I can turn now 544 00:32:58.780 --> 00:33:00.060 to some of the comments from Alfred, 545 00:33:00.220 --> 00:33:01.540 I think it's particularly important 546 00:33:01.540 --> 00:33:03.060 that we see some of these phenomena 547 00:33:03.060 --> 00:33:05.620 in a much broader geopolitical context 548 00:33:05.620 --> 00:33:07.180 because he's absolutely correct. 549 00:33:07.560 --> 00:33:09.540 We're not simply looking at individuals 550 00:33:09.540 --> 00:33:12.760 or internal factors to an individual 551 00:33:12.760 --> 00:33:13.680 or between individuals. 552 00:33:13.800 --> 00:33:15.040 We're actually looking at broader 553 00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:17.400 geographical factors that occur, 554 00:33:17.400 --> 00:33:19.560 that Australia is uniquely placed 555 00:33:19.560 --> 00:33:21.380 and is in some difficulty 556 00:33:21.380 --> 00:33:23.760 largely because it's this huge island 557 00:33:23.760 --> 00:33:24.900 with a coastline that you actually 558 00:33:24.900 --> 00:33:26.160 can't police terribly well. 559 00:33:26.300 --> 00:33:28.560 And that we're open to the influx 560 00:33:28.560 --> 00:33:29.780 of substances from overseas, 561 00:33:29.900 --> 00:33:31.220 which is very difficult to keep out. 562 00:33:31.500 --> 00:33:33.640 And modern transportation means 563 00:33:33.640 --> 00:33:35.700 that we can move the creativity of substances 564 00:33:35.700 --> 00:33:37.300 that we have from one continent to another 565 00:33:37.300 --> 00:33:38.540 very, very easily indeed. 566 00:33:38.940 --> 00:33:41.400 But similarly, all speakers have also mentioned 567 00:33:41.400 --> 00:33:42.440 the notion of technology 568 00:33:42.440 --> 00:33:45.880 as part of this complex interplay of factors 569 00:33:45.880 --> 00:33:47.060 that we're attempting to deal with. 570 00:33:47.400 --> 00:33:48.900 And if I could give you another quote, 571 00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:50.980 this is from the Lexus and the Olive Tree, 572 00:33:51.060 --> 00:33:53.020 which is a delightful read on globalization. 573 00:33:53.580 --> 00:33:55.140 Not everybody would agree with it. 574 00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:56.840 There's actually a fantastic photo 575 00:33:56.840 --> 00:33:57.640 which you won't be able to see here. 576 00:33:57.760 --> 00:34:00.160 This is a traditional Jew at the Wailing Wall 577 00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:01.980 in Jerusalem holding up his mobile phone 578 00:34:01.980 --> 00:34:04.200 so that a colleague in France can actually 579 00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:05.780 make prayers to the Wailing Wall. 580 00:34:08.060 --> 00:34:10.800 But to capture the essence of what it's like living 581 00:34:11.620 --> 00:34:14.440 in the modern world in the 21st century 582 00:34:14.440 --> 00:34:16.880 and how rapidly technology has expanded 583 00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:18.460 and unfolded before our very eyes, 584 00:34:18.620 --> 00:34:20.040 he gives this quite good example. 585 00:34:20.540 --> 00:34:24.220 He said, the Deputy US Treasurer Secretary Larry Summers 586 00:34:24.220 --> 00:34:26.420 likes to tell a story that in 1988, 587 00:34:26.860 --> 00:34:28.600 okay, just a little more than 10 years ago, 588 00:34:28.700 --> 00:34:32.080 in 1988, he was working on the Michael Dukakis 589 00:34:32.080 --> 00:34:34.840 presidential campaign and was one day sent to Chicago 590 00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:36.500 to give a talk on behalf of Dukakis. 591 00:34:36.640 --> 00:34:38.780 And in Chicago, he was assigned a car 592 00:34:38.780 --> 00:34:39.940 that had a mobile phone, 593 00:34:40.040 --> 00:34:42.180 and he thought that was just such a buzz at the time. 594 00:34:42.240 --> 00:34:44.420 He thought it was a sufficiently neat thing 595 00:34:44.420 --> 00:34:45.560 to have a cell phone in his car 596 00:34:45.560 --> 00:34:47.020 that he used to ring his wife to say, 597 00:34:47.120 --> 00:34:48.380 I'm in the car on the phone. 598 00:34:49.580 --> 00:34:52.040 Nine years later, in 1977, 599 00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:54.600 Summers, on treasury business, 600 00:34:54.820 --> 00:34:56.860 was visiting the Ivory Coast in West Africa. 601 00:34:57.100 --> 00:34:58.380 And as part of his official visit, 602 00:34:58.460 --> 00:35:01.780 he had to inaugurate an American-funded health project 603 00:35:01.780 --> 00:35:04.020 in a village upriver from the capital. 604 00:35:04.340 --> 00:35:07.520 The village, which was opening its first potable water well, 605 00:35:07.620 --> 00:35:09.620 could only be reached by dugout canoe. 606 00:35:10.240 --> 00:35:11.760 Summers, the big cheese from America, 607 00:35:11.960 --> 00:35:14.880 was made an honorary African chief by the villagers 608 00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:16.640 and decked out in African robes. 609 00:35:16.640 --> 00:35:18.620 But what he remembered most vividly 610 00:35:18.620 --> 00:35:20.600 was that on the way back from the village, 611 00:35:20.780 --> 00:35:22.560 as he stepped into the dugout canoe 612 00:35:22.560 --> 00:35:24.700 to go downriver to the Ivory Coast, 613 00:35:24.980 --> 00:35:27.480 his colleague handed him his phone saying, 614 00:35:27.640 --> 00:35:29.300 Washington has a question for you. 615 00:35:31.160 --> 00:35:32.520 So in nine years, 616 00:35:32.700 --> 00:35:34.160 Summers went from thinking that it was neat 617 00:35:34.160 --> 00:35:35.960 to have a phone in his car in Chicago 618 00:35:35.960 --> 00:35:38.580 to expecting to have a phone in his dugout canoe 619 00:35:38.580 --> 00:35:40.100 on the Ivory Coast of Africa. 620 00:35:41.740 --> 00:35:44.260 So technology has rapidly expanded 621 00:35:44.260 --> 00:35:44.960 and expanded before us. 622 00:35:45.120 --> 00:35:47.460 And the whole question about how we view the world 623 00:35:47.460 --> 00:35:49.440 and how we consume and how we position ourselves 624 00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:51.140 cannot be seen in isolation 625 00:35:51.140 --> 00:35:53.960 from either geopolitical factors that Alfred has mentioned 626 00:35:53.960 --> 00:35:56.620 or the technology with which we all live 627 00:35:56.620 --> 00:35:58.160 and attempt to cope with one way or another. 628 00:35:59.560 --> 00:36:01.300 But if I then move a little bit towards 629 00:36:01.300 --> 00:36:03.440 some of the sort of the intra-psychic phenomena 630 00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:05.420 that we also deal with, as John highlighted, 631 00:36:05.600 --> 00:36:07.300 we still grapple with this notion 632 00:36:07.300 --> 00:36:09.300 about what is it about human beings 633 00:36:09.300 --> 00:36:11.880 that we do have this pursuit of intoxication, 634 00:36:12.060 --> 00:36:14.240 and moreover, what is it about human beings 635 00:36:14.260 --> 00:36:15.380 that some people become, 636 00:36:15.600 --> 00:36:18.140 how we tend to classify as addicted 637 00:36:18.140 --> 00:36:20.360 to a substance or a behaviour. 638 00:36:20.940 --> 00:36:22.360 And that at the moment, 639 00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:24.420 the Commonwealth Government and the House of Representatives 640 00:36:24.420 --> 00:36:26.360 has an inquiry that's been going 641 00:36:26.360 --> 00:36:28.120 for over 12 months at this stage. 642 00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:30.980 I appeared before this some month or two back. 643 00:36:31.360 --> 00:36:33.940 That committee who had been studying in depth 644 00:36:33.940 --> 00:36:36.140 the phenomenon of drug use is still grappling with, 645 00:36:36.280 --> 00:36:37.740 can you tell us? 646 00:36:37.800 --> 00:36:39.340 They said to speaker after speaker, 647 00:36:39.480 --> 00:36:42.120 can you tell us what this phenomenon is of addiction? 648 00:36:42.260 --> 00:36:43.640 Can you explain it to us? 649 00:36:43.640 --> 00:36:46.280 And clearly it is such a difficult thing 650 00:36:46.280 --> 00:36:47.980 to come to terms with, 651 00:36:48.020 --> 00:36:49.940 and there is no simple solution to it. 652 00:36:50.220 --> 00:36:51.600 And what I would suggest to you 653 00:36:51.600 --> 00:36:53.740 that what we do need is this overarching model, 654 00:36:53.860 --> 00:36:56.580 and that some of the things that I used to teach 655 00:36:56.580 --> 00:36:59.060 to students who were often counsellors 656 00:36:59.060 --> 00:36:59.880 working in these areas, 657 00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:02.640 it's very helpful to have a multi-layered model 658 00:37:03.360 --> 00:37:04.600 of what we're dealing with. 659 00:37:04.840 --> 00:37:07.040 And it takes people back, if you say, 660 00:37:07.100 --> 00:37:09.180 one of the major motivators for people 661 00:37:09.180 --> 00:37:10.640 to use any kinds of substances 662 00:37:11.260 --> 00:37:12.720 is around pleasure. 663 00:37:12.720 --> 00:37:14.880 It's about the fun of use. 664 00:37:15.120 --> 00:37:17.040 And people, and I actually said this 665 00:37:17.040 --> 00:37:18.940 at the recent inquiry in Canberra, 666 00:37:18.980 --> 00:37:22.220 and literally one of the politicians' drawers dropped 667 00:37:22.220 --> 00:37:24.900 and she said, can you possibly substantiate that? 668 00:37:25.140 --> 00:37:27.000 And I said, well, yes, there's actually very good data on it, 669 00:37:27.060 --> 00:37:29.520 but if you ask any user of an illicit substance 670 00:37:29.520 --> 00:37:31.720 or other substances or someone who drinks champagne, 671 00:37:31.880 --> 00:37:32.700 they'll tell you very quickly, 672 00:37:32.780 --> 00:37:34.420 it's a highly pleasurable phenomenon 673 00:37:34.420 --> 00:37:35.340 they are experiencing. 674 00:37:35.880 --> 00:37:38.640 That's one component of our overarching framework. 675 00:37:38.920 --> 00:37:40.720 There are major personal motivators. 676 00:37:41.480 --> 00:37:42.700 And we are pleasure-saving. 677 00:37:42.720 --> 00:37:43.300 And if you're seeking individuals, 678 00:37:43.600 --> 00:37:45.000 pleasure is tremendously important. 679 00:37:45.560 --> 00:37:47.720 And if I give you a delightful quote, 680 00:37:47.860 --> 00:37:49.160 this is a book called Heroin Users 681 00:37:49.160 --> 00:37:50.740 written by a woman called Tam Stewart, 682 00:37:51.060 --> 00:37:54.160 who's a bright, articulate science graduate in England 683 00:37:54.160 --> 00:37:56.460 and who in her 20s became a heroin addict. 684 00:37:56.660 --> 00:37:59.880 And in some ways, she captures very beautifully for us 685 00:37:59.880 --> 00:38:00.920 what it was like, 686 00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:02.860 and if I can try and capture the essence 687 00:38:02.860 --> 00:38:03.960 of the notion of pleasure. 688 00:38:04.380 --> 00:38:06.260 And she talks about her experience 689 00:38:06.260 --> 00:38:08.480 in her very early days of becoming addicted 690 00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:09.580 or using heroin. 691 00:38:09.660 --> 00:38:09.940 She said, 692 00:38:10.560 --> 00:38:11.340 The rush. 693 00:38:11.700 --> 00:38:13.300 It is so hard to describe. 694 00:38:13.600 --> 00:38:15.520 It's like waiting for a distant thunderstorm 695 00:38:15.520 --> 00:38:16.420 to move overhead. 696 00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:18.220 A strange foreboding. 697 00:38:18.300 --> 00:38:19.920 A bizarre awesome calm. 698 00:38:20.180 --> 00:38:21.900 It's in your blood moving towards your brain 699 00:38:21.900 --> 00:38:23.880 relentlessly, unstoppably, inevitably. 700 00:38:24.580 --> 00:38:27.220 The feeling starts to grow like a rumble from the horizon. 701 00:38:27.240 --> 00:38:29.620 The feeling swells, surging, soaring, crashing, 702 00:38:29.680 --> 00:38:31.420 streaming to a devastating crescendo. 703 00:38:31.740 --> 00:38:33.860 The gear smashes against the top of your skull 704 00:38:33.860 --> 00:38:35.740 with the power of an uncapped oil well. 705 00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:38.020 You won't be able to bear the intense ecstasy. 706 00:38:38.120 --> 00:38:39.040 It's all too much. 707 00:38:39.040 --> 00:38:40.820 Your body may fall apart. 708 00:38:40.980 --> 00:38:42.600 The rock that is your head shatters harmlessly 709 00:38:42.600 --> 00:38:44.780 into a million sparkling, tinkling smithereens. 710 00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:47.040 They rumble at a thousand miles an hour, 711 00:38:47.080 --> 00:38:48.520 straight back down over your body, 712 00:38:48.620 --> 00:38:51.420 warming, insulating, tingling, denying all pain, 713 00:38:51.640 --> 00:38:53.160 all fear and sadness. 714 00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:54.340 You are stoned. 715 00:38:54.400 --> 00:38:55.000 You are high. 716 00:38:55.180 --> 00:38:57.300 You are above and below reality and the law. 717 00:38:58.360 --> 00:39:00.240 The reason I emphasise that is because 718 00:39:00.240 --> 00:39:01.760 much of what we're dealing with 719 00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:04.880 are tremendously powerful personal experiences for people 720 00:39:04.880 --> 00:39:07.380 and they're often not spoken about in those kinds of ways. 721 00:39:07.380 --> 00:39:10.100 So, in terms of what it means for us, 722 00:39:10.220 --> 00:39:12.120 we need an overarching model. 723 00:39:12.300 --> 00:39:15.780 We need to take on board what we, as part of the animal kingdom, 724 00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:17.720 are actually like in terms of our human behaviour. 725 00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:21.380 We need to place that behaviour in a broader geopolitical context 726 00:39:21.380 --> 00:39:22.580 such as Alfred has highlighted, 727 00:39:22.820 --> 00:39:25.340 but we also need to look at some of the intra-psychic factors 728 00:39:25.340 --> 00:39:27.500 that operate that and we need to pull those things together 729 00:39:27.500 --> 00:39:28.920 and it's from that, to some extent, 730 00:39:29.080 --> 00:39:31.600 that we're likely to derive some kind of understanding. 731 00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:33.920 And if I can finish with the words of George Burns, 732 00:39:34.080 --> 00:39:36.560 that it is fairly difficult to come to terms with 733 00:39:36.560 --> 00:39:39.920 exactly who we are as people and to take fair measure of it. 734 00:39:40.220 --> 00:39:41.580 And when George Burns used to say, 735 00:39:41.620 --> 00:39:43.060 it only takes one drink to get me drunk, 736 00:39:43.140 --> 00:39:45.360 but I can't work out whether it's the 13th or the 14th. 737 00:39:45.700 --> 00:39:47.560 The phenomenon is a little bit like that. 738 00:39:59.240 --> 00:40:01.380 The Brookman Hall here in Adelaide 739 00:40:01.380 --> 00:40:04.060 is full of people who are addicted to ideas 740 00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:06.400 and I hope they will now 741 00:40:06.560 --> 00:40:10.400 rapidly aggregate or congregate around the microphone 742 00:40:10.400 --> 00:40:12.520 to exchange them with the panel, 743 00:40:12.580 --> 00:40:15.520 with Tim, Alfred, John and Anne. 744 00:40:17.080 --> 00:40:19.980 And while people queue endlessly, 745 00:40:21.140 --> 00:40:23.760 I'd like to put a question to you, John. 746 00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:28.200 We know that the policies of prohibition and interdiction 747 00:40:28.200 --> 00:40:31.700 have been both farcical and hypocritical, 748 00:40:31.720 --> 00:40:34.160 but I'm wondering whether one of the mechanisms, 749 00:40:34.520 --> 00:40:35.700 one of the inducements, 750 00:40:35.700 --> 00:40:39.120 one of the great and profound attractions to drugs 751 00:40:39.700 --> 00:40:44.180 hasn't been the simple fact that society has demonised them. 752 00:40:44.360 --> 00:40:45.760 In your clinical... 753 00:40:48.080 --> 00:40:48.680 ... 754 00:41:02.540 --> 00:41:05.340 ...drug use does have an aspect of... 755 00:41:05.340 --> 00:41:07.080 ...rebellion, forbidden fruit, 756 00:41:08.080 --> 00:41:08.760 counterculture, 757 00:41:08.980 --> 00:41:11.660 differentiation of the generations and so on. 758 00:41:11.980 --> 00:41:13.920 But in the broader perspective 759 00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:16.060 of people becoming over-involved 760 00:41:16.060 --> 00:41:17.940 because of their strong inclinations 761 00:41:17.940 --> 00:41:20.520 towards rewarding behaviours, 762 00:41:20.520 --> 00:41:22.760 inherently rewarding behaviours, 763 00:41:22.860 --> 00:41:25.660 I think it's overstated. 764 00:41:25.860 --> 00:41:29.200 I think prohibition has led, as you know, 765 00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:33.540 to a whole class of problems associated with drug use, 766 00:41:33.600 --> 00:41:34.340 but I see that as being epiphenomenon. 767 00:41:35.780 --> 00:41:40.700 Secondary to the natural pursuit of that which is desirable. 768 00:41:40.920 --> 00:41:44.600 Drugs are inherently, most drugs, 769 00:41:45.900 --> 00:41:49.140 inherently give pleasurable experiences, as we've seen. 770 00:41:49.200 --> 00:41:50.600 As Anne so vividly reminds us. 771 00:41:51.200 --> 00:41:54.440 OK, but before I'm on to John, just for one more minute, 772 00:41:54.520 --> 00:41:57.620 we know that advertising is influential, 773 00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:01.380 that it does create behaviour patterns in people. 774 00:42:01.700 --> 00:42:04.140 Now, if you can do it with a 30- or a 60-second commercial, 775 00:42:04.140 --> 00:42:09.740 what can you do with endless LPs, CDs, movies, etc, 776 00:42:10.040 --> 00:42:13.620 which push the exhilarations of the drug culture? 777 00:42:14.340 --> 00:42:16.320 Yeah, I think there's no doubt 778 00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:19.900 that the media is powerful 779 00:42:19.900 --> 00:42:26.880 in that it can inculcate a propensity towards a behaviour. 780 00:42:27.060 --> 00:42:29.000 I don't think it's so powerful 781 00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:31.060 that it can take a person 782 00:42:31.060 --> 00:42:33.880 from having no inclination towards a behaviour 783 00:42:34.140 --> 00:42:37.580 to putting them right into the zone of overindulgence. 784 00:42:37.640 --> 00:42:38.400 I don't believe that. 785 00:42:38.580 --> 00:42:41.960 But if we're talking about somebody already travelling along the road, 786 00:42:42.060 --> 00:42:45.080 the pathway of inclination, I think it accelerates it. 787 00:42:45.300 --> 00:42:47.640 So it could be a part of a multifactorial equation. 788 00:42:48.780 --> 00:42:50.480 Sir, you're the first question. 789 00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:51.540 Thank you. 790 00:42:51.920 --> 00:42:53.600 My name is Ralph Beckwith, 791 00:42:53.740 --> 00:42:58.340 and obviously I'm one of the growing, increasing number 792 00:42:58.340 --> 00:43:00.540 of senior citizens in this state. 793 00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:04.120 The disadvantage of running to the market 794 00:43:04.140 --> 00:43:06.640 with a microphone is that you don't have very long 795 00:43:06.640 --> 00:43:09.660 to think about how to frame your comment or question. 796 00:43:10.200 --> 00:43:13.840 But there are two addictions that I haven't heard mentioned 797 00:43:13.840 --> 00:43:17.720 that I think we should be even more concerned about, possibly. 798 00:43:18.480 --> 00:43:20.580 One is the addiction of power. 799 00:43:21.220 --> 00:43:24.900 The other one is the addiction of accumulating wealth. 800 00:43:25.740 --> 00:43:28.740 Now, wealth can buy lots of gimmickry, 801 00:43:29.940 --> 00:43:33.600 but I question how many of these 802 00:43:33.600 --> 00:43:36.120 new inventions that we must have 803 00:43:36.120 --> 00:43:40.940 have even the potential to contribute 804 00:43:40.940 --> 00:43:43.960 to increasing human happiness. 805 00:43:44.260 --> 00:43:48.220 I think there should be a test for the potential 806 00:43:48.220 --> 00:43:53.920 to assist human happiness in all research endeavours 807 00:43:53.920 --> 00:43:58.100 and particularly in the production of new consumer items. 808 00:43:58.580 --> 00:44:01.480 But I would like the panel to comment 809 00:44:01.480 --> 00:44:03.580 on these two unmentioned ideas. 810 00:44:03.600 --> 00:44:05.220 I think the first one is the addiction of power 811 00:44:05.220 --> 00:44:07.220 and the second is the accumulation of wealth. 812 00:44:07.560 --> 00:44:10.000 Tim, as you kick over pieces of shale, 813 00:44:10.100 --> 00:44:12.580 what do you find in the fossil record? 814 00:44:14.020 --> 00:44:16.660 I think what the fossil record tells us 815 00:44:16.660 --> 00:44:20.060 is that for most of the Pleistocene, 816 00:44:20.160 --> 00:44:22.900 we've been busy, you know, and the Holocene as well. 817 00:44:23.040 --> 00:44:24.420 We've actually had to live lives 818 00:44:24.420 --> 00:44:28.720 where times are portioned to carry out a series of tasks 819 00:44:28.720 --> 00:44:32.040 and enterprises that doesn't allow for addiction, if you want. 820 00:44:32.140 --> 00:44:33.000 We have the desires. 821 00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:34.100 People would love... 822 00:44:34.100 --> 00:44:36.520 They love and have pursued power forever and a day 823 00:44:36.520 --> 00:44:39.400 and sex and perhaps intoxication and whatever else. 824 00:44:39.800 --> 00:44:42.280 But the successful organisms are those 825 00:44:42.280 --> 00:44:45.580 that have managed to allocate their time in such a way 826 00:44:45.580 --> 00:44:48.420 that they haven't, what would you say, 827 00:44:48.480 --> 00:44:51.700 disproportionately pursued one of those particular outcomes. 828 00:44:52.360 --> 00:44:55.060 So, and I mean, what was just said then 829 00:44:55.060 --> 00:44:57.320 strikes a very deep chord with me 830 00:44:57.320 --> 00:45:00.980 because in a sense I am most fulfilled as a person, 831 00:45:01.020 --> 00:45:02.800 not as a museum director, 832 00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:03.700 or anything else, 833 00:45:03.800 --> 00:45:06.240 but as just a person living in a rich environment, 834 00:45:07.620 --> 00:45:10.460 where technology is stripped down to a level 835 00:45:10.460 --> 00:45:12.940 that I can understand it and manipulate it and control it, 836 00:45:13.020 --> 00:45:15.840 rather than being feedlotted in a complex society 837 00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:17.500 where I have too much time on my hands 838 00:45:17.500 --> 00:45:20.760 and all of these built-in devils in your mind that... 839 00:45:20.760 --> 00:45:23.220 Tim, let's reformulate a part of that question. 840 00:45:23.440 --> 00:45:23.960 Power. 841 00:45:24.220 --> 00:45:27.560 Is there an advantage, an evolutionary advantage, 842 00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:32.040 to the selfish gene and whatever form it manifests itself, 843 00:45:32.040 --> 00:45:33.520 to accumulate power? 844 00:45:33.700 --> 00:45:34.700 Surely that's... 845 00:45:35.560 --> 00:45:36.600 Absolutely there is. 846 00:45:36.680 --> 00:45:37.660 But there is not... 847 00:45:37.660 --> 00:45:40.400 That gene wouldn't drive you to accumulate power 848 00:45:40.400 --> 00:45:41.840 to the point where you forget to eat, 849 00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:45.300 or you forget to do the other necessaries of life. 850 00:45:45.680 --> 00:45:48.640 So I think that, I mean, these are built-in desires and needs, 851 00:45:48.700 --> 00:45:51.780 but they've all existed within an environmental framework 852 00:45:51.780 --> 00:45:55.080 where just the doing of things to allow us to live 853 00:45:55.080 --> 00:45:56.600 has taken up most of our time. 854 00:45:56.760 --> 00:45:59.900 John, I know in private practice you're treating both Kerry and Rupert. 855 00:45:59.940 --> 00:46:01.240 Do you have a comment on...? 856 00:46:01.240 --> 00:46:03.920 I lost that. I treat... 857 00:46:03.920 --> 00:46:08.640 Treat Kerry and Rupert for their addictive personality traits. 858 00:46:09.660 --> 00:46:11.440 You don't wish to discuss this? 859 00:46:12.280 --> 00:46:13.160 What I would like... 860 00:46:13.160 --> 00:46:14.320 Have you been drowsing off here? 861 00:46:15.680 --> 00:46:17.980 I'll reformulate it just for you. 862 00:46:18.080 --> 00:46:19.460 Look, power. 863 00:46:19.840 --> 00:46:20.800 Is it... 864 00:46:20.800 --> 00:46:23.840 Do you see it coming up in your private practice? 865 00:46:24.020 --> 00:46:28.900 Do you see the addiction for power, or for sex, or for money, frequently? 866 00:46:30.180 --> 00:46:30.240 I... 867 00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:35.780 I see it as part of some other behaviours, 868 00:46:35.780 --> 00:46:41.680 rather than it being a dominant or prevailing behaviour. 869 00:46:41.960 --> 00:46:46.000 I think probably there are people around for whom that is their intoxicant, 870 00:46:46.120 --> 00:46:47.620 but it's not the people I see. 871 00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:55.680 But in association with desiring quick wealth and success through gambling, 872 00:46:56.480 --> 00:46:59.680 some of my businessmen, 873 00:46:59.680 --> 00:47:01.380 male gambling clients, 874 00:47:01.600 --> 00:47:05.800 are also getting a power trip out of success... 875 00:47:05.800 --> 00:47:09.860 successful ventures in gambling on the stock market and so on. 876 00:47:10.040 --> 00:47:13.820 I would like to pick up on that comment about technology and happiness. 877 00:47:14.340 --> 00:47:15.260 It's interesting. 878 00:47:15.400 --> 00:47:17.740 There is a growing body of happiness research, 879 00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:19.160 and it's very difficult to define. 880 00:47:19.680 --> 00:47:23.120 But what is consistent amongst it 881 00:47:23.120 --> 00:47:28.980 is that above a threshold below which people are in poverty, 882 00:47:28.980 --> 00:47:34.980 there is no correlation between increasing wealth and power and happiness. 883 00:47:35.320 --> 00:47:36.340 Status and happiness. 884 00:47:36.960 --> 00:47:39.040 Below that threshold, obviously, there is. 885 00:47:39.340 --> 00:47:44.020 But whatever else makes us feel contented and fulfilled, 886 00:47:44.260 --> 00:47:50.760 it does not seem to be closely related to technology and acquisition of materials. 887 00:47:51.440 --> 00:47:53.000 Anne, do you wish to comment on that? 888 00:47:53.280 --> 00:47:54.760 Yeah, just in relation to the latter point, 889 00:47:54.860 --> 00:47:57.300 in that if we look at what happens with young people, 890 00:47:57.300 --> 00:48:00.660 that if you think that much motivation for taking drugs, for instance, 891 00:48:01.300 --> 00:48:02.060 is about the present, 892 00:48:02.240 --> 00:48:04.380 you know, it's a pleasurable experience, it's fun to do now, 893 00:48:04.540 --> 00:48:08.960 or what we see in treatment often is where people have had previous problems, 894 00:48:09.040 --> 00:48:10.300 that they may have been sexually abused, 895 00:48:10.400 --> 00:48:12.040 and there's a large proportion of people who get into treatment 896 00:48:12.040 --> 00:48:13.680 as part of previous experience. 897 00:48:14.360 --> 00:48:15.980 Increasingly, what we're seeing for young people 898 00:48:15.980 --> 00:48:17.920 is where they see, looking to the future, 899 00:48:18.120 --> 00:48:21.740 that they see a sense of futility and a lack of opportunity. 900 00:48:22.080 --> 00:48:26.620 And I think in some way that echoes the previous questioner's point, 901 00:48:26.620 --> 00:48:31.460 that unless you can provide a sense of contribution to your community 902 00:48:31.460 --> 00:48:33.680 and to your society and that you have a place that's fulfilling, 903 00:48:33.940 --> 00:48:38.300 that's often a motivator for young people to use drugs in a problematic and harmful way. 904 00:48:39.380 --> 00:48:40.600 Sir, your turn. 905 00:48:41.240 --> 00:48:46.220 Yes, my question is related to fluoridation in the water 906 00:48:46.220 --> 00:48:48.200 in relation to social conditioning. 907 00:48:49.720 --> 00:48:55.500 A lot of the information I've read is based on what I've read on the www.truefacts.org 908 00:48:55.500 --> 00:48:56.600 in relation to the fact that, you know, 909 00:48:56.620 --> 00:49:03.200 fluoridation or fluoride in water can reduce a person's ability to resist suggestion, 910 00:49:03.920 --> 00:49:07.760 thus leaving them open for media or electromagnetic pollution 911 00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:12.080 or content suggestion by compulsive behaviour. 912 00:49:12.280 --> 00:49:15.600 So my question is, is the effect of fluoride taken into consideration 913 00:49:15.600 --> 00:49:20.800 upon its social control effect and its large-scale social effect 914 00:49:20.800 --> 00:49:22.040 towards compulsive behaviour? 915 00:49:22.540 --> 00:49:26.040 Alfred, fluoride has wrecked my life, I've got to tell you. 916 00:49:26.120 --> 00:49:26.600 Thank you. 917 00:49:26.620 --> 00:49:27.660 It's made me left-wing. 918 00:49:27.920 --> 00:49:30.900 Can you, do you know much about fluoride? 919 00:49:32.640 --> 00:49:37.520 It would explain a lot in my case, is all I can think, 920 00:49:37.660 --> 00:49:39.340 but it is a new argument to me. 921 00:49:41.020 --> 00:49:43.240 Actually, that reminds me of Max Norman. 922 00:49:44.020 --> 00:49:46.640 When I was doing my research on drugs in Australia, 923 00:49:46.640 --> 00:49:48.540 and I got a bit of play in the media, 924 00:49:49.120 --> 00:49:52.260 once during my office hours at the University of New South Wales about 1985, 925 00:49:52.720 --> 00:49:55.300 a very nice American man named Max came by, 926 00:49:56.500 --> 00:49:59.780 and Max said he'd flown down from Queensland to meet me, 927 00:49:59.840 --> 00:50:01.880 and he wanted to talk to me about the fluoride conspiracy. 928 00:50:02.740 --> 00:50:05.860 And he explained that he'd been in a mental hospital in Long Island 929 00:50:05.860 --> 00:50:08.660 in the late 1950s when the CIA planned the future 930 00:50:08.660 --> 00:50:10.160 in front of a bunch of mental patients, 931 00:50:10.660 --> 00:50:13.200 including the, Andrew Young was a male nurse on the floor, 932 00:50:13.280 --> 00:50:15.040 the former UN ambassador, 933 00:50:15.720 --> 00:50:18.680 and they war-gamed the assassination of President John F. Kennedy 934 00:50:18.680 --> 00:50:20.980 and played it out in front of the mental patients 935 00:50:20.980 --> 00:50:24.400 just to see how it would work when they had to eliminate this man 936 00:50:24.400 --> 00:50:25.280 who was obviously going to be president. 937 00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:26.540 At least in their projections. 938 00:50:26.960 --> 00:50:30.260 And Max said, unfortunately, he'd been going around the world ever since 939 00:50:30.260 --> 00:50:32.100 and telling people that he was a former mental patient, 940 00:50:32.240 --> 00:50:35.700 and he saw the CIA war-game the assassination of President Kennedy, 941 00:50:35.740 --> 00:50:36.760 and people weren't believing him. 942 00:50:37.100 --> 00:50:39.680 And he had some more concerns about fluoride as well. 943 00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:42.600 And I guess, like everybody else, I didn't believe Max, 944 00:50:42.700 --> 00:50:44.100 and I feel the same way about fluoride. 945 00:50:44.100 --> 00:50:45.540 I think that's a cover-up, that story. 946 00:50:46.820 --> 00:50:48.540 We are not fooled, Alfred. 947 00:50:49.260 --> 00:50:50.240 Madam, your turn. 948 00:50:51.260 --> 00:50:51.700 Hi. 949 00:50:54.100 --> 00:50:55.260 I'd like to know, you know, 950 00:50:55.280 --> 00:50:56.100 from the panel, 951 00:50:56.660 --> 00:51:00.100 whether you think it's possible for young people now and in the future 952 00:51:00.100 --> 00:51:02.440 to create a balance within their life 953 00:51:02.440 --> 00:51:04.480 which involves certain elements of addiction, 954 00:51:04.720 --> 00:51:07.840 and if so, what is an acceptable element of addiction in their life, 955 00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:11.760 whether it be to drugs or to other things, media or habit? 956 00:51:16.840 --> 00:51:19.820 Well, I think it's a very interesting question 957 00:51:19.820 --> 00:51:25.240 because my recipe for not getting excessively over-involved 958 00:51:25.240 --> 00:51:25.260 is to say, you know, 959 00:51:25.280 --> 00:51:26.220 I'm not over-involved in any one domain, 960 00:51:26.600 --> 00:51:29.120 is to be very enthusiastic 961 00:51:29.120 --> 00:51:31.880 and a little bit over-involved in many. 962 00:51:33.380 --> 00:51:38.860 And so, unless our society provides a lot of structure 963 00:51:38.860 --> 00:51:45.160 and a lot of opportunities which give young people a kick, a buzz, a high, 964 00:51:47.020 --> 00:51:53.520 they will gravitate towards an easy, efficient, sure recipe of drugs, 965 00:51:53.640 --> 00:51:54.460 for that effect. 966 00:51:55.280 --> 00:51:59.900 So, I'm not necessarily arguing that the drugs have to be completely dropped from their repertoire, 967 00:52:00.280 --> 00:52:03.280 but they are less likely to over-indulge in that one area 968 00:52:03.280 --> 00:52:07.520 if lots of other things are also giving them potent pleasure. 969 00:52:07.880 --> 00:52:11.440 And that's a huge challenge for our society, 970 00:52:11.560 --> 00:52:13.300 to engineer it in that way 971 00:52:13.300 --> 00:52:18.480 and to make sure particularly that the underprivileged 972 00:52:18.480 --> 00:52:20.500 have access to such opportunities. 973 00:52:21.020 --> 00:52:24.020 And this has been an area in which you've been active. 974 00:52:26.020 --> 00:52:29.340 There's an American Harvard medical graduate called Andrew Weill, 975 00:52:29.460 --> 00:52:31.380 who many of you may be familiar with. 976 00:52:31.460 --> 00:52:33.040 He was in Australia about three years ago 977 00:52:33.040 --> 00:52:34.240 and on the cover of Time magazine. 978 00:52:34.480 --> 00:52:36.540 He has a wonderful bald head and big bushy beard. 979 00:52:36.720 --> 00:52:41.020 And he's quite well known for his approach to what's called integrationist medicine, 980 00:52:41.240 --> 00:52:42.800 so combining the best of Western medicine 981 00:52:42.800 --> 00:52:45.360 and the best of some alternative medicines. 982 00:52:45.840 --> 00:52:49.780 He wrote in the early 80s a book called From Chocolate to Morphine 983 00:52:49.780 --> 00:52:52.460 that was, I think, banned in parts of America, 984 00:52:52.600 --> 00:52:54.900 and attempting to give a much more balanced view 985 00:52:54.900 --> 00:52:58.540 about how we manage drugs and behaviors 986 00:52:58.540 --> 00:53:00.600 that people aren't necessarily all that comfortable with. 987 00:53:00.740 --> 00:53:03.360 What he talks about is developing a healthy relationship 988 00:53:03.900 --> 00:53:05.920 with any substance in your life. 989 00:53:06.140 --> 00:53:10.240 So rather than taking this kind of an abstinence approach, 990 00:53:10.380 --> 00:53:11.940 or this is a good drug, this is a bad drug, 991 00:53:11.980 --> 00:53:15.500 view each of these kinds of either appetitive behaviors 992 00:53:15.500 --> 00:53:17.340 or substances that you're dealing with. 993 00:53:17.400 --> 00:53:20.000 Be very well informed, extremely well informed 994 00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:21.960 about their potential dangers, 995 00:53:22.080 --> 00:53:24.020 of which all of them, including this was mentioned earlier, 996 00:53:24.120 --> 00:53:24.880 by Alvin. 997 00:53:24.900 --> 00:53:24.980 He wrote about how you can develop a healthy relationship 998 00:53:24.980 --> 00:53:27.320 including alcohol, for instance, and tobacco. 999 00:53:27.520 --> 00:53:29.680 But be very well aware of their dangers, 1000 00:53:29.740 --> 00:53:31.100 but develop a healthy relationship. 1001 00:53:31.440 --> 00:53:33.040 And he actually wrote out guidelines 1002 00:53:33.040 --> 00:53:34.820 for how you actually might go about doing that, 1003 00:53:34.860 --> 00:53:36.300 to keep that kind of balance in your life. 1004 00:53:36.400 --> 00:53:38.480 So I think the short answer is yes, 1005 00:53:38.580 --> 00:53:40.280 but I think it's a complex process to do it. 1006 00:53:42.080 --> 00:53:42.520 Madam. 1007 00:53:43.660 --> 00:53:45.700 This follows on a bit from that question. 1008 00:53:46.600 --> 00:53:51.600 You're talking about creating a balanced view, 1009 00:53:51.600 --> 00:53:54.780 a balanced relationship between an individual 1010 00:53:54.780 --> 00:53:57.020 and a substance or an activity. 1011 00:53:57.420 --> 00:53:59.780 This is directed toward Tim Flannery 1012 00:53:59.780 --> 00:54:03.200 and his reference to zoo behavior 1013 00:54:03.200 --> 00:54:07.640 and the kinds of stresses that are manifested 1014 00:54:07.640 --> 00:54:14.260 in animal behavior in zoos that are mirrored in our culture. 1015 00:54:15.280 --> 00:54:19.020 Could he speak a bit more about the kinds of factors 1016 00:54:19.020 --> 00:54:21.580 that he sees in our society that are, 1017 00:54:21.580 --> 00:54:25.820 are creating the zoo that we're responding to? 1018 00:54:27.940 --> 00:54:31.060 I've referred to that, or glossed it if you want, 1019 00:54:31.160 --> 00:54:32.980 as feedlotting of humanity. 1020 00:54:33.440 --> 00:54:36.620 And a feedlotted animal is one where everything is presented to it. 1021 00:54:36.800 --> 00:54:39.520 So all of the behaviors that that animal has evolved 1022 00:54:39.520 --> 00:54:43.460 over many, many millions of years are no longer useful to it 1023 00:54:43.460 --> 00:54:44.960 and in fact can be a source of frustration 1024 00:54:44.960 --> 00:54:46.460 because they can't be carried out. 1025 00:54:46.800 --> 00:54:49.580 And technology is very rapidly feedlotting us. 1026 00:54:49.680 --> 00:54:51.500 If you even compare our situation 1027 00:54:51.580 --> 00:54:53.940 with that of our grandparents or great-grandparents, 1028 00:54:54.140 --> 00:54:56.880 so many of the capacities that they utilized 1029 00:54:58.120 --> 00:54:59.740 that may not have given them pleasure 1030 00:54:59.740 --> 00:55:02.120 but were there and needed to be exercised, if you want, 1031 00:55:02.240 --> 00:55:03.600 and now taken from us. 1032 00:55:03.840 --> 00:55:07.580 And technology now, if you've been listening to Rodney Brooks here, 1033 00:55:08.360 --> 00:55:12.700 is at the point where we'll be able to make mechanical humans, 1034 00:55:12.860 --> 00:55:15.360 if you want, which will be able to do everything that we can do. 1035 00:55:15.800 --> 00:55:18.060 And at that point, you wonder where, 1036 00:55:18.820 --> 00:55:20.460 where the line, where the line is. 1037 00:55:20.460 --> 00:55:22.500 I mean, for me, it came home personally 1038 00:55:22.500 --> 00:55:23.880 with global positioning systems. 1039 00:55:24.140 --> 00:55:26.260 And I realized when I was working in New Guinea 1040 00:55:26.260 --> 00:55:27.860 and the very first of these came out, 1041 00:55:27.980 --> 00:55:30.700 which was towards the end of my fieldwork in New Guinea, 1042 00:55:31.020 --> 00:55:33.800 it actually, the global positioning system robbed me 1043 00:55:33.800 --> 00:55:36.660 of the ability or capacity to be any sort of explorer. 1044 00:55:36.960 --> 00:55:42.820 It actually destroyed a tradition that was humanly satisfying. 1045 00:55:43.260 --> 00:55:44.700 It may have allowed me to work more efficiently, 1046 00:55:45.460 --> 00:55:48.100 but it actually destroyed something much more important than that. 1047 00:55:48.100 --> 00:55:52.480 So I'm probably sound like very much like a technological Luddite here. 1048 00:55:52.800 --> 00:55:56.200 But to me, it seems that it's, you know, 1049 00:55:56.200 --> 00:55:58.400 if you're living a life that's in, 1050 00:55:59.100 --> 00:56:02.440 that allows you to exercise and fulfill those evolutionary, 1051 00:56:03.100 --> 00:56:05.700 those evolutionarily constructed aspects of ourselves, 1052 00:56:06.120 --> 00:56:07.660 then we leave contented lives. 1053 00:56:07.740 --> 00:56:08.840 We may not always be happy, 1054 00:56:08.920 --> 00:56:12.380 but we won't have time to become destructive. 1055 00:56:14.020 --> 00:56:16.320 Before we take the next question from the floor, 1056 00:56:16.500 --> 00:56:18.080 Alfred, you and I, 1057 00:56:18.100 --> 00:56:22.720 were discussing elsewhere the politics of this issue 1058 00:56:22.720 --> 00:56:24.680 of prohibition and interdiction. 1059 00:56:25.040 --> 00:56:28.320 And if we see a bit of compulsive behavior around at the moment, 1060 00:56:28.360 --> 00:56:30.080 it seems to be from political leaders 1061 00:56:30.080 --> 00:56:32.760 who won't touch this issue with a barge pole, 1062 00:56:32.980 --> 00:56:36.760 who are so addicted to power that they won't raise it. 1063 00:56:37.280 --> 00:56:40.380 Despite the fact that even amongst ultra-conservative Americans 1064 00:56:40.380 --> 00:56:43.840 like William F. Buckley Jr. or Shultz, 1065 00:56:43.840 --> 00:56:45.200 who worked in the Reagan administration, 1066 00:56:45.820 --> 00:56:47.300 there is an admission, 1067 00:56:48.100 --> 00:56:51.500 that the war against drugs is utterly and totally lost. 1068 00:56:52.020 --> 00:56:55.060 Why is it, A, that they don't move 1069 00:56:55.060 --> 00:56:57.260 when public opinion seems ahead of them? 1070 00:57:00.180 --> 00:57:01.500 Because of the way... 1071 00:57:01.500 --> 00:57:05.280 And, B, do you see signs of it actually breaking out in American anger? 1072 00:57:05.920 --> 00:57:06.600 Right. 1073 00:57:06.760 --> 00:57:09.800 The entire prohibition experiment, 1074 00:57:11.340 --> 00:57:12.940 the structures of prohibition, 1075 00:57:12.940 --> 00:57:17.080 have become built into international law and practice 1076 00:57:17.080 --> 00:57:20.200 by treaties passed since 1912. 1077 00:57:20.960 --> 00:57:22.200 That's nearly a century. 1078 00:57:22.480 --> 00:57:25.080 There is now a very elaborate global bureaucracy. 1079 00:57:26.820 --> 00:57:29.780 The former UN Fund for Drug Abuse Control, 1080 00:57:29.940 --> 00:57:31.840 the UN Drug Control Program today, 1081 00:57:33.040 --> 00:57:35.480 every nation that's a signatory to those laws 1082 00:57:35.480 --> 00:57:37.080 is bound to pass domestic legislation 1083 00:57:37.680 --> 00:57:40.020 in compliance with those laws. 1084 00:57:40.240 --> 00:57:44.080 So there's a very elaborate body of law, 1085 00:57:44.860 --> 00:57:47.060 which then has its own laws, 1086 00:57:47.060 --> 00:57:50.120 the six exectors, the courts, the prisons, the police. 1087 00:57:50.500 --> 00:57:52.680 And there is, of course, an ideology 1088 00:57:53.760 --> 00:57:54.840 that originally... 1089 00:57:54.840 --> 00:58:00.220 This prohibitionist structure came out of an ideology. 1090 00:58:00.440 --> 00:58:02.960 It was born of a pure conceptual response 1091 00:58:02.960 --> 00:58:08.720 to the rise of the mass manufacture of drugs in the 19th century, 1092 00:58:08.840 --> 00:58:12.720 and this kind of racial stereotyping of drugs, 1093 00:58:12.860 --> 00:58:14.720 the racial profiling of drugs, if you will. 1094 00:58:14.980 --> 00:58:16.180 And as a result, 1095 00:58:16.180 --> 00:58:17.940 there are in the United States 1096 00:58:17.940 --> 00:58:20.380 a wide set of unexamined principles 1097 00:58:20.380 --> 00:58:22.320 or prejudices about the nature of drugs, 1098 00:58:22.380 --> 00:58:25.860 which makes alcohol the most dangerous drug legal, 1099 00:58:26.040 --> 00:58:29.980 and heroin and marijuana much less dangerous drugs, 1100 00:58:30.140 --> 00:58:31.400 physiologically illegal. 1101 00:58:32.240 --> 00:58:35.200 And in the dynamics of politics in the United States, 1102 00:58:36.020 --> 00:58:38.000 President Clinton, when he left office, 1103 00:58:38.200 --> 00:58:41.180 a man who was an extraordinarily powerful two-term president, 1104 00:58:41.300 --> 00:58:43.080 in an interview with Rolling Stone magazine 1105 00:58:43.080 --> 00:58:45.640 and in articles that he wrote, cited as... 1106 00:58:45.640 --> 00:58:47.780 And he was a man of many failings, he could have cited. 1107 00:58:48.260 --> 00:58:50.220 He picked the one key failing 1108 00:58:50.220 --> 00:58:52.380 was his inability to address the drug war. 1109 00:58:52.540 --> 00:58:54.180 And it came down to a very simple act. 1110 00:58:54.340 --> 00:58:58.140 In his first term, he was planning to undo the drug war. 1111 00:58:58.320 --> 00:59:00.240 He's a well-trained, intelligent lawyer. 1112 00:59:00.480 --> 00:59:02.480 And then what happened was, in November 1994, 1113 00:59:02.980 --> 00:59:05.840 right-wing Republicans under Newt Gingrich captured Congress, 1114 00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:08.920 and in order to get legislation through Congress 1115 00:59:08.920 --> 00:59:11.120 to exercise power, to be presidential, 1116 00:59:11.460 --> 00:59:13.120 he had to swing to the hard right. 1117 00:59:13.120 --> 00:59:15.280 And instead of undoing the drug war, 1118 00:59:15.480 --> 00:59:17.440 he passed the Omnibus Crime Act, 1119 00:59:17.540 --> 00:59:20.120 which put 100,000 more police on the streets, 1120 00:59:20.220 --> 00:59:22.300 each officer arresting people 1121 00:59:22.300 --> 00:59:24.080 and filling up the prisons even more. 1122 00:59:24.320 --> 00:59:27.320 So it's the interplay between ideology, 1123 00:59:27.960 --> 00:59:30.840 international diplomacy, and bureaucracy, 1124 00:59:31.340 --> 00:59:33.300 and the political process 1125 00:59:33.300 --> 00:59:36.200 which has locked us into this structure 1126 00:59:36.200 --> 00:59:37.700 which can't be changed. 1127 00:59:37.880 --> 00:59:42.380 That said, it is now so increasingly irrational 1128 00:59:42.380 --> 00:59:45.460 in the United States where we actually enforce it. 1129 00:59:45.480 --> 00:59:48.380 In Australia, what is apparently happening, 1130 00:59:49.000 --> 00:59:51.200 from what Nick Caldry and people like that 1131 00:59:51.200 --> 00:59:52.340 have been saying at this conference, 1132 00:59:52.520 --> 00:59:54.740 is that Australia is doing it informally, 1133 00:59:54.760 --> 00:59:56.160 through informal procedures. 1134 00:59:56.380 --> 00:59:57.740 You're not enforcing the laws. 1135 00:59:57.900 --> 00:59:59.080 You're not arresting people. 1136 00:59:59.200 --> 01:00:00.480 You're not putting people in prisons 1137 01:00:00.480 --> 01:00:03.780 and paying the social costs of filling up your prisons. 1138 01:00:03.860 --> 01:00:07.100 In the United States, we enforce the drug war fully, 1139 01:00:07.260 --> 01:00:08.640 right to the letter. 1140 01:00:09.280 --> 01:00:11.540 We have 100,000 more people on the streets. 1141 01:00:11.620 --> 01:00:12.360 We've constructed a new law 1142 01:00:12.380 --> 01:00:12.760 that's a doomsday machine. 1143 01:00:12.980 --> 01:00:14.160 Police sweep the streets. 1144 01:00:14.320 --> 01:00:15.980 They pick up drug users. 1145 01:00:16.140 --> 01:00:17.320 They bring them before the courts. 1146 01:00:17.440 --> 01:00:19.920 If you have, according to the evidence, 1147 01:00:20.120 --> 01:00:21.420 so much drug in possession, 1148 01:00:21.600 --> 01:00:23.180 you go to prison, no judicial discretion, 1149 01:00:23.480 --> 01:00:25.820 and then parole is limited. 1150 01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:26.700 It's a doomsday machine. 1151 01:00:26.860 --> 01:00:28.120 Well, in the state of California, 1152 01:00:28.320 --> 01:00:29.520 over the last five years, 1153 01:00:29.640 --> 01:00:30.320 what happened was, 1154 01:00:30.440 --> 01:00:32.680 as a result of an incredible mushrooming 1155 01:00:32.680 --> 01:00:33.400 of our prison population, 1156 01:00:33.720 --> 01:00:35.800 California was spending more on prisons 1157 01:00:35.800 --> 01:00:37.180 than it was on universities. 1158 01:00:37.540 --> 01:00:40.040 And California has a fine university system 1159 01:00:40.040 --> 01:00:42.280 which is the basis of its high-tech economy. 1160 01:00:42.280 --> 01:00:44.360 The most powerful economic engine 1161 01:00:44.360 --> 01:00:45.220 on the face of the planet today 1162 01:00:45.220 --> 01:00:46.040 is Silicon Valley. 1163 01:00:46.220 --> 01:00:47.540 It rests upon education. 1164 01:00:47.940 --> 01:00:49.360 California doesn't have education. 1165 01:00:49.460 --> 01:00:51.280 It doesn't have, you know, 1166 01:00:51.280 --> 01:00:53.140 a kind of a purchase on high technology. 1167 01:00:53.400 --> 01:00:55.620 So the voters of California this March 1168 01:00:55.620 --> 01:00:57.260 passed a referendum that said 1169 01:00:57.260 --> 01:01:00.500 the punishment for possession of drugs 1170 01:01:00.500 --> 01:01:02.600 is treatment, not incarceration. 1171 01:01:03.060 --> 01:01:04.440 In the state of New York, 1172 01:01:04.540 --> 01:01:06.420 the home of the mandatory minimum, 1173 01:01:06.700 --> 01:01:09.240 the so-called Rockefeller drug laws, 1174 01:01:09.380 --> 01:01:10.280 which were passed in the early 1970s, 1175 01:01:10.800 --> 01:01:12.260 which are phenomenally draconian in place, 1176 01:01:12.260 --> 01:01:14.280 put people in prison for these extreme sentences, 1177 01:01:14.520 --> 01:01:16.480 which have been then imitated across the United States 1178 01:01:16.480 --> 01:01:17.840 and become a part of the drug war. 1179 01:01:17.980 --> 01:01:20.520 The conservative Republican governor of New York, 1180 01:01:20.560 --> 01:01:21.280 George Pataki, 1181 01:01:21.480 --> 01:01:23.360 told the legislature this spring 1182 01:01:23.360 --> 01:01:26.000 that it's time to end the Rockefeller drug laws. 1183 01:01:26.140 --> 01:01:26.300 Why? 1184 01:01:26.520 --> 01:01:29.600 Because New York has got a huge state prison system 1185 01:01:29.600 --> 01:01:31.700 that's eating the state budget alive. 1186 01:01:32.160 --> 01:01:34.920 So the irrationality is coming home 1187 01:01:34.920 --> 01:01:37.160 and people are beginning to unpackage this. 1188 01:01:38.060 --> 01:01:40.400 The subject is the compulsive culture. 1189 01:01:40.400 --> 01:01:44.120 And people here feel compulsion to ask questions. 1190 01:01:46.100 --> 01:01:50.580 It seems to me there are two main kinds of compulsive addiction. 1191 01:01:51.220 --> 01:01:54.620 One relates to a social type 1192 01:01:54.620 --> 01:01:58.700 in which pleasure and relief are the main causes. 1193 01:01:59.080 --> 01:02:01.820 I think that's the bigger of the two types. 1194 01:02:02.560 --> 01:02:06.680 My observation is that people often grow out of that. 1195 01:02:06.800 --> 01:02:09.400 Or alternatively, there are policies 1196 01:02:09.400 --> 01:02:14.760 and processes which can help people re-socialize. 1197 01:02:15.540 --> 01:02:19.820 The other type is one that Carl Jung, I think, recognized, 1198 01:02:20.600 --> 01:02:25.020 which is the seeking after the spirit. 1199 01:02:25.520 --> 01:02:28.240 He saw the spirit as being that and the bottom. 1200 01:02:29.360 --> 01:02:33.420 I'm wondering whether the panel would like to comment on these two types 1201 01:02:33.420 --> 01:02:35.760 and whether they think there is any truth in them. 1202 01:02:36.380 --> 01:02:38.260 Anne, would you start that, too? 1203 01:02:40.360 --> 01:02:41.980 I think it's a great question. 1204 01:02:42.120 --> 01:02:46.380 I'm not sure I'd frame the question in quite that dichotomized way. 1205 01:02:46.640 --> 01:02:48.380 But I think that there are important elements 1206 01:02:48.380 --> 01:02:49.820 in both of the points that you raise. 1207 01:02:50.020 --> 01:02:53.640 And that pursuit of a more fulfilling spiritual life 1208 01:02:53.640 --> 01:02:57.060 is something that is coming increasingly to the fore 1209 01:02:57.060 --> 01:02:58.340 and increasingly apparent 1210 01:02:58.340 --> 01:03:01.360 and where you've got problematic drug use. 1211 01:03:01.500 --> 01:03:03.380 And I would be quick to follow that by saying 1212 01:03:03.860 --> 01:03:06.240 not all and probably most drug use 1213 01:03:06.240 --> 01:03:07.680 is not what you'd call problematic. 1214 01:03:08.320 --> 01:03:09.380 And we often think that. 1215 01:03:09.400 --> 01:03:12.760 We often only define problematic use or use in terms of addiction, 1216 01:03:13.020 --> 01:03:16.020 whereas really you've got this enormous continuum of use. 1217 01:03:16.900 --> 01:03:20.380 But yes, I think the quest for some kind of spiritual enlightenment 1218 01:03:20.380 --> 01:03:24.140 or certainly the whole use of many intoxicating substances 1219 01:03:24.140 --> 01:03:26.140 is about an altered state of consciousness. 1220 01:03:26.460 --> 01:03:28.520 And as human beings, we certainly seek that out. 1221 01:03:28.680 --> 01:03:31.140 So that's probably not a very satisfactory answer 1222 01:03:31.140 --> 01:03:32.280 to the points that you raise. 1223 01:03:32.480 --> 01:03:34.260 But I think that the points are important 1224 01:03:34.260 --> 01:03:36.680 and that in this debate there needs to be due consideration 1225 01:03:36.680 --> 01:03:37.980 given to the whole issue of spirituality. 1226 01:03:39.400 --> 01:03:40.160 And the final question. 1227 01:03:41.140 --> 01:03:43.540 I'd like to address my question to John. 1228 01:03:43.920 --> 01:03:46.960 And that is that you mentioned in your address earlier 1229 01:03:46.960 --> 01:03:50.340 that restraint is the necessary antidote to appetite. 1230 01:03:50.920 --> 01:03:54.560 And I would really like it if you could explore that a little with us 1231 01:03:55.220 --> 01:03:58.820 across the age groups as you perceive it. 1232 01:04:00.380 --> 01:04:01.660 I need another hour. 1233 01:04:04.660 --> 01:04:07.620 Yes, and the use of the word restraint 1234 01:04:07.620 --> 01:04:09.940 sounds a bit draconian, 1235 01:04:09.960 --> 01:04:13.220 and I don't mean to imply it's used in that way. 1236 01:04:13.580 --> 01:04:17.960 It's in a very broad sense of all those factors 1237 01:04:18.620 --> 01:04:22.720 which in fact mitigate against over-involvement. 1238 01:04:23.300 --> 01:04:26.180 It's a correction, it's a counter, 1239 01:04:26.520 --> 01:04:30.080 and generally it's positive. 1240 01:04:30.700 --> 01:04:35.240 Given the choice between having fulfilling social roles 1241 01:04:35.240 --> 01:04:36.580 and meeting our obligations, 1242 01:04:37.620 --> 01:04:39.420 good social discourse, 1243 01:04:40.620 --> 01:04:42.960 achieving goals and so on, 1244 01:04:43.060 --> 01:04:45.580 most people most of the time would prefer that 1245 01:04:45.580 --> 01:04:48.880 to simply indulging their appetites. 1246 01:04:49.820 --> 01:04:55.580 But when those restraints are absent or manipulated, 1247 01:04:56.100 --> 01:05:00.580 then I think it's very easy for appetites to come to the fore. 1248 01:05:01.020 --> 01:05:04.780 And yes, there will be differences developmentally, 1249 01:05:05.760 --> 01:05:06.600 undoubtedly. 1250 01:05:06.600 --> 01:05:11.020 So at very younger age groups, 1251 01:05:11.200 --> 01:05:15.120 perhaps those restraints have to be far more factored in, 1252 01:05:15.160 --> 01:05:16.300 more highly structured. 1253 01:05:16.940 --> 01:05:19.660 But we learn as we go through life 1254 01:05:19.660 --> 01:05:23.640 to do some engineering of our own, if you like. 1255 01:05:23.920 --> 01:05:25.520 And I agree with the previous, 1256 01:05:27.620 --> 01:05:29.940 the man who asked the previous question, 1257 01:05:30.240 --> 01:05:34.560 that there tends to be a natural history of over-involvement as well. 1258 01:05:34.620 --> 01:05:36.140 Most people who get over-involved 1259 01:05:36.140 --> 01:05:39.580 with the behaviour get out the other end quite naturally, 1260 01:05:39.820 --> 01:05:42.060 quite spontaneously over time. 1261 01:05:42.260 --> 01:05:44.660 Some will need some help, most don't. 1262 01:05:44.800 --> 01:05:50.420 And the key issue is how to keep people from doing too much harm to themselves 1263 01:05:51.140 --> 01:05:54.880 whilst they're dabbling in an over-involved way, 1264 01:05:55.020 --> 01:05:56.840 the focus being on harm, 1265 01:05:56.960 --> 01:06:01.960 rather than seeing our appetites and excessive involvement 1266 01:06:01.960 --> 01:06:03.300 as being bad per se. 1267 01:06:04.300 --> 01:06:04.940 Um... 1268 01:06:06.140 --> 01:06:06.500 That will do. 1269 01:06:06.640 --> 01:06:10.600 I mean, it's not giving an adequate answer to that very bold question. 1270 01:06:10.780 --> 01:06:10.800 I think it's a very good answer indeed. 1271 01:06:11.280 --> 01:06:15.100 Voices of sanity against the insanity of public policy 1272 01:06:15.100 --> 01:06:19.180 and the nonsense swirling around the demonisation of drugs. 1273 01:06:19.480 --> 01:06:21.480 Ladies and gentlemen, let us thank the panel. 1274 01:06:21.600 --> 01:06:26.160 Tim Flannery, Alfred McCoy, John O'Connor and Anne Roche. 1275 01:06:37.060 --> 01:06:38.680 Thank you.