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<v Intro>This session of the 2013 Adelaide festival of ideas was recorded by</v>

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Radio Adelaide through the support of the vast mid library,

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University of Adelaide,

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the University of South Australia library and Flinders University library.

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<v Julian Pierce>My name is Julian Pierce.</v>

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I'm delighted to be chairing this session this morning.

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I'm the executive director of Australian Dance Theater here in Adelaide.

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And I'm also the chair of the emerging and experimental arts panel of the

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Australia council.

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So welcome to this morning session,

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anxiety meets creativity and great to see a great crowd here.

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It's obviously a topic that's piqued your interest.

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None of you look that anxious this morning, so you look all sort of fresh,

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but maybe by it, maybe by the end of it, we,

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we we'll wait and see.

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So this morning I acknowledged that we are gathered on the traditional country

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of the Ghana people of the Adelaide Plains.

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We recognize and respect their cultural heritage,

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beliefs and relationships with the land.

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We acknowledge that they are of continuing importance to the garner people

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living today, and we respect their elders past and present.

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So just a little bit of housekeeping,

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please switch your mobile phone to silent during the session,

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but you're welcome to use your phone during the session and Twitter and

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all of that. So the hashtag is hashtag ADL FOI.

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So hopefully you won't be that anxious to,

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to not send out lots of Twitters from today,

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lots of tweets from today's session.

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And please note that unauthorized recordings of any kind are not permitted

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during this session.

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And today's session is being audio recorded by radio Adelaide for broadcast and

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future podcasts. So I asked her when,

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when we do do the Q and a towards the end of the session that you use the

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microphone just here to so that we can record your question.

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So two today's panel anxiety meets creativity.

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This has been sparked by some ideas by the philosopher Kierkegaard who argued

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that anxiety is essential for creativity as a dual force.

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It can be both destructive and generative depending on how we approach

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it. Our speakers today will discuss whether in an angst helps or hinders the

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creative process and how they channel their inner demons without assuming the

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fetal position. So in, as we know,

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anxiety is, is a modern condition know, there's,

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there's a lot of anxiety around us now. And you know,

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what does happen when anxiety meets creativity? And I, do they have a big hug?

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Do they get on, do they you know,

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have a polite handshake or do they start brawling immediately?

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You know,

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we are very aware that anxiety and create creativity is a very dynamic,

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but often tense relationship. And we look at the, of someone like Woody Allen,

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who's infamous for bearing all of his anxieties and phobias on the

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screen in a wonderful sort of outpouring of creativity.

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So in a case like Woody Allen,

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his anxiety is an incredible sort of dynamic force for,

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for his artistic output.

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I must admit to a bit of chair's anxiety myself with such a great panel

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this morning, but hopefully you'll see more anxiety,

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more creativity than anxiety from me this morning,

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but just to introduce the speakers to you now Gary Brent Greenberg,

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who's on the far right there is based in Connecticut. And he said to me today,

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how how wonderfully friendly everyone is in Adelaide.

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So it's got a big smile on his face, so he's loving it here.

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Even we are, even though we are in the bowels of the Masonic lodge.

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So Gary is a practicing psychotherapist and author of manufacturing,

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depression, and the noble life. Gary will talk about the phenomenon of anxiety

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and how psychiatrists and psychologists have seen it over the years and how no

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matter the school of thought the tendency to pathologize

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anxiety conflicts with the artistic impulse and it Goldsworthy who

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many of you would know, I'm sure it's been very busy. This festival ideas,

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she's just come from a panel that I've been at a 50 shades of feminisms.

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So this is I hope this is going to be a,

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sort of another stimulating topic for you, Anna,

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but Anna is an award-winning pianist and writer,

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her best-selling memoir piano lessons when newcomer of the year at the

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Australian book industry wards awards.

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And we'll talk a little bit about the role of anxiety and obsession and

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obsession as a generator of her work,

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but also as a subject of her work there's an episode in her recent memoir,

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welcome to your new life,

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which is essentially a transcription of a panic attack.

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And Anna will talk about this and also read from it, which will be great.

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And also welcome to Peter drew.

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Who's recently returned from from Glasgow,

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where he was undertaking a research master's at the Glasgow school of art

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in working on street art. And that,

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what was the topic of your.

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<v Peter Drew>Reset? The, it was straight out and graffiti,</v>

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but that's why they don't fit within institutions. Yeah.

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<v Julian Pierce>So I think Peter's going to expand a bit on that today and and his problems</v>

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with academia, I think who who, who else he says, ironically enough,

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his research at the school examined the tension between large institutions and

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urban art, but yet he was threatened with expulsion for, I dunno,

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what did he do? Graffiti the.

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<v 3>Provosts, there.</v>

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<v Peter Drew>Are places that are stuffed up and they,</v>

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they liked them and then they didn't love them.

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<v Julian Pierce>Right. Okay. So, okay. That's a, that's a good start. So enough of me,</v>

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and I'm going to hand it over to thank you.

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[inaudible].

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<v 4>So despite.</v>

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<v Gary Greenberg>The overwhelming friendliness that I've encountered here in Australia,</v>

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which actually for a while I was taking it personally,

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they really like me, but then I realized it's just, you know,

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sort of the cultural norm, but despite all of that the other day,

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I think two nights ago, I woke up at in, in, in bed and,

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and was possessed with this

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feeling of dread. And it was, I was nauseated. I was sweaty.

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I was frightened.

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I crawled across that three hectare bed that they supplied me with at the Hilton

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and looked at the clock and it was 2 27 in the morning. And I thought, well,

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one thing's for sure.

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I finally adjusted because that's about when I wake up at home with those

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feelings. And I hope you're feeling a little,

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sorry for me, I was feeling a little sorry for myself,

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but the interesting thing that happens or happened that night,

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and I was more aware of it because I was thinking about this presentation was

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that I went through the whole like list. Will w what,

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what is it what's going on here? You know,

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there's this whole thing in the Bible about

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God calling out to Abraham and Abraham responding here I am,

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you know, and this is,

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was the character guardian view about anxiety was that it was a call.

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So the question was, well, who's calling me, what is this about?

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And so I went through the list, you know did I leave the iron on at home?

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Did I am I, am I having a heart attack and about to die?

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What's going to happen with my kid as he gets older you know,

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does my wife still loved me,

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even though I've been away for two weeks and left her alone with him, you know,

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and, and on and on. And, and, and,

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and what occurred to me later after I went back to sleep and woke up,

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not feeling this anymore, was that when we feel a feeling like that,

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and perhaps everybody in this room has felt something like that that,

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that anxiety feeling the dread

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we're compelled to find a story to tell ourselves about why do we feel this way

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now? I don't know if that's a modern thing. I mean,

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obviously this is the only time I've ever lived that I know of. And so,

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but I do know that that is the modern,

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that both of these are the modern condition. Anxiety is the modern condition.

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It's how most of us most of us dip into at one time or another,

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and telling the story is also a modern condition. We,

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we tell stories and sometimes increasingly we know that they're only stories.

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Now my my racket, the psychotherapy is really a storytelling racket.

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And what we do is we have different ways of telling that story from the one

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about how it's biology, you know, I just got bad chemicals and they're, they're,

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they're making me a 2 27 in the morning, have this feeling,

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and it's probably got something to do with low blood sugar.

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And it's the emergency you know, I wish we had idiot lights instead of pain,

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but I, I, that, that, that would be intelligent design.

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But you know, the, the story is that there's something gone wrong in my body.

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There's a story told about behavior that certain

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behaviors are associated with a certain feeling.

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And then when you encounter that behavior,

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when you're encountered that stimulus again, you have the feeling,

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maybe it's because I'm alone in a big city that I, don't not familiar with.

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There's the cognitive behavioral story that I'm telling myself a, a, a,

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a I I've got bad thoughts, you know,

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and I'm being pessimistic and really I'm not going to die,

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so why should I feel bad?

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And there's the Freudian story that anxiety is about sort of unsettled

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in intra-psychic conflict.

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And all of these stories have the same effect act.

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And this is something I need to apologize for, I think,

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and apologize in the sense of saying, sorry. Which is that in my field,

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what we do is we tend to take anxiety as a symptom of vanillas and something

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that's bad. Now there's no question that it's uncomfortable,

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but the question is, is it sick?

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We don't really know how to answer that question.

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We can look at it in terms of disability. If the anxiety is so bad,

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you can't function. Then there must be something wrong with it.

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But I think we've done the world a disservice,

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because I think that it is true that if I think about the writing,

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I've done that the anxiety, when it,

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isn't making me curl up into a fetal position on my enormous bed in the Hilton

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is useful. And here's why,

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because I think that underneath with all of this stuff that we do with our

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stories and our,

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our lives and our making money and all of that underneath all of that is this

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current raw presence. And that current,

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if you can dip into it out of that comes art,

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whatever the art is out of that comes inspiration. So in my experience,

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these moments like the one in the Hilton have been the fount in some way,

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if not directly then indirectly an indication that I'm about to,

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to that something is about to happen.

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And to dismiss this as sickness is a bad idea,

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but what we're not very good at.

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And there's one school of psychotherapy that I think takes care of this,

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which is the existentialist school of psychotherapy,

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which has encouraged us to look at our anxiety.

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And what it really does is it encourages us to strengthen our ability to do

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that. We don't learn this well enough as children and as grownups too,

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to tolerate our negative feelings.

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And if there's one thing that I think is really important to be able to do,

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to get on in life,

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that a life that seems to offer all sorts of opportunities for a heart to

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tolerate feelings is to learn to tolerate them because when you do

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that, and this has been my experience anyway, when I do that,

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then I'm able to dip in and get beyond the world of

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everyday appearances and find something else,

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find something that's worth writing about that's worth talking about.

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And that's what I'm hoping I've done with the experience that I had at the

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Hilton.

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<v 4>[Inaudible] Perhaps we can just.</v>

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<v Julian Pierce>Explore a little bit more this idea of anxiety as a sickness,</v>

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and I'm just wondering what your thoughts would be on. You know,

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the more anxious you are does that make you a better artist or

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it's, you know, where,

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at what point does anxiety stop being a sickness that makes us feel, you know,

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I mean, there's,

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there's so many of us on sort of antidepressants and, you know,

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at what point do we use that, take that anxiety and turn it into something else.

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<v Gary Greenberg>Yeah, I don't, and I think it's,</v>

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I hesitate to make a universal statement about that,

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because as much as it might sound like I'm weaseling out of answering the

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question, it really does depend on the individual. I mean,

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what we have here is first of all, we have temperaments.

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Some of us are more prone to feeling what we call anxiety than others,

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and that's just across the board.

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And so those people are saddled with more of it.

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But the, and some people, when they take the drugs,

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whether it's Xanax or Valium or antidepressants or marijuana

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or alcohol which by the way, is the greatest.

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Anti-Anxiety not that I'm recommending it,

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but it is a tremendous anti-anxiety drugs. Yes, it does. And, and, and,

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you know, before the age of modern medicine that people drank they still drink,

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especially here, I've noticed.

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<v 6>But everyone looks so happy that's it I've made the connection. Now.</v>

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I thought it was the lithium in the water, but.

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<v Gary Greenberg>But,</v>

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but everybody has their response to the

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drugs as well as to the anxiety.

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So the question is really a question about cultivation,

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given your own baseline, given your own level of anxiety,

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tendency to anxiety, what can you do to cultivate it?

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Some people in order to do that, I have to maybe have to take drugs.

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So there's no way to say that the more anxious you are,

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the more artistic you are, where if you take drugs,

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you're not going to be able to be creative,

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but what you don't want to lose fact sight of is that in that anxiety is the

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inspiration somewhere buried in there.

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And for some of us it's harder to get at than others. Some of us are lucky.

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We have anxiety all the time.

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<v 6>Let me just do.</v>

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<v Julian Pierce>Just one more quick question for me is why is the middle of the night that you</v>

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wake up.

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<v Gary Greenberg>With that? So something about done any recent, something about serotonin.</v>

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I think it's, you know, I,

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it did because the middle of the night is when everything is quiet,

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it's when you're, you can't, and you're, you're in a, you're in a,

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you're in a defenseless state.

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And the reality of mortality, which is, you know,

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this is the great thing about humans.

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We're the only animals that seem to have a sense of mortality.

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Isn't that wonderful. You know, if you didn't know you were going to die,

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it wouldn't be such a problem. And so, you know,

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you just live your life thinking, of course, we all do that. Right.

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We have that myth we're not going to,

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but I think that it's when it sneaks up on you.

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<v Julian Pierce>I know Peter, did you want to respond to.</v>

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<v 7>Us gonna wait?</v>

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<v Julian Pierce>Okay. Okay.</v>

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Well I think Gary's laid sort of a very rich groundwork for

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you know, for a, for a conversation. So just sort of hand over to Anna now.

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<v Anna Goldsworthy>Yeah. Thank you. Look, I'm,</v>

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I'm intrigued by this notion that inspiration lies with an anxiety.

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And I suspect I can, I guess I can really only speak from my case,

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but I suspect it is at least partly true.

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I do think though that there's probably in the sort of optimal quantity of

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anxiety, that's super productive for me.

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And that beyond that it actually becomes sort of paralyzing.

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And I might sort of start by talking about my own experiences as a musician,

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as a pianist. And I think anxiety plays into that. A number of ways.

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I know when I was a child, I could only go to sleep at night.

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If my father was playing the piano in the adjacent room,

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it was supremely reassuring. And, and I've read somewhere.

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It's been said that the ear is the organ of fear,

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and there's something really primal about music. I think that it, you know,

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it does it's, it suits us. And so perhaps part of my attraction to music as a,

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as a slightly anxious person,

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or occasionally an extremely anxious person is arises from that.

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But beyond that if you are a pianist, a performing musician, you know,

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if you're forced to practice for long hours every day.

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And I think perhaps if you don't have an obsessive temperament, which,

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which I may be wrong, but I suspect is in some ways connected to,

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into an anxious temperament. I mean, certainly for me, my anxiety at times,

284
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it's felt like just another form of my obsessiveness. It'd be difficult to,

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to put in the requisite hours, you know, five,

286
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six hours a day practicing when you're growing up. And,

287
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and if there wasn't the spectrum of these sort of terrible possibilities for

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public humiliation in the form of concerts on the horizon,

289
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perhaps one would be less inclined to practice. So,

290
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so anxiety in that sense is a useful motivating factor.

291
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But then beyond that, we get to the whole issue of performance of,

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of stepping on stage now in my first memoir, which is piano lessons,

293
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which sort of charts my, my own musical upbringing, I think in retrospect,

294
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what I was seeking to do was to dispel some of the mistakes that we cultivate

295
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when we're on stage. You know, we like to give the impression as,

296
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as performance that everything's under control when that were these terribly

297
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serene beings that are somehow just able to access these these master.

298
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And yet behind that, there's a tremendous amount of work clearly,

299
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but also probably certainly in my case panic. And what part,

300
00:17:57.730 --> 00:17:58.920
part of what that book is, I guess,

301
00:17:58.930 --> 00:18:01.860
is a transcription of the anxiety of being a performer.

302
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And after it was published,

303
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my very first interview was with the novelist Andrea Goldsmith.

304
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And she said to me,

305
00:18:09.001 --> 00:18:12.780
I think you've written a definitive book about anxiety and how ironic that is an

306
00:18:12.781 --> 00:18:13.441
anxious person.

307
00:18:13.441 --> 00:18:18.030
You were attracted to this particular sphere of work in which anxiety I suppose

308
00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:20.400
is, is a large component of performance.

309
00:18:20.910 --> 00:18:24.780
Now I was intrigued when I heard Gary say that one of the ways we respond to

310
00:18:24.781 --> 00:18:26.790
anxiety is by constructing stories.

311
00:18:27.150 --> 00:18:31.140
And when I think of the way my mind acts when I'm on stage,

312
00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:34.530
and this is what I mean about, you want a sort of optimal amount of anxiety,

313
00:18:35.700 --> 00:18:36.990
I think before you go on stage,

314
00:18:37.020 --> 00:18:38.940
if you're not feeling it a slight adrenaline rush,

315
00:18:38.970 --> 00:18:40.860
then you're in trouble because you just don't care.

316
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And that adrenaline can be terrifically powerful.

317
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You can harness it for good as well as for evil.

318
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And it can actually make you perform at your very, very best if it gets,

319
00:18:49.890 --> 00:18:51.840
if it gets a little bit too much,

320
00:18:51.900 --> 00:18:54.930
then it can be debilitating and then it can actually stop you from performing.

321
00:18:55.350 --> 00:18:57.300
And in my case, certainly growing up,

322
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I think it was the stories that resulted from that anxiety that would cause me

323
00:19:01.471 --> 00:19:05.910
trouble on the stage because it's when, when a performance is not going well,

324
00:19:05.911 --> 00:19:07.770
that's when the chattering is going on in your head.

325
00:19:08.040 --> 00:19:10.320
And the chattering usually takes the form of, Hey,

326
00:19:10.350 --> 00:19:13.080
wouldn't it be kind of funny if I had a memory lapse on the, on the next page,

327
00:19:14.780 --> 00:19:19.040
do it, do I really know this piece or imagine if this were to happen?

328
00:19:19.760 --> 00:19:22.730
And what I did find riding this particular memoir was, it was much,

329
00:19:22.790 --> 00:19:26.480
much easier for me to write about bad performances than it was about good

330
00:19:26.481 --> 00:19:27.314
performances.

331
00:19:27.650 --> 00:19:31.970
And I think the reason was that good performances were largely silent in terms

332
00:19:31.971 --> 00:19:36.230
of that chattering anxiety provoking voice suggests you do actually inhabit

333
00:19:36.231 --> 00:19:40.100
someplace, very sporadically of grace, where you just in the moment,

334
00:19:40.370 --> 00:19:41.360
but when you're not in the moment,

335
00:19:41.361 --> 00:19:44.150
that's when there's that little demon in your shoulder doing all that talking

336
00:19:44.570 --> 00:19:48.460
now, that's not useful to me, particularly as a pianist on stage it's,

337
00:19:48.461 --> 00:19:51.200
it's fabulous for the, for the, for the practice studio, because it's,

338
00:19:51.430 --> 00:19:53.660
it's what allows you to second guess your art and, and improve.

339
00:19:54.110 --> 00:19:55.310
It is quite useful though.

340
00:19:55.610 --> 00:20:00.230
I think as a writer and I think probably a literary

341
00:20:00.320 --> 00:20:03.530
sensibility does have to be obsessive in that way.

342
00:20:04.460 --> 00:20:08.960
Then I had children and I found that a lot of my anxiety just shifted

343
00:20:08.961 --> 00:20:13.160
from my concert life to my children. And in a curious way,

344
00:20:13.161 --> 00:20:15.320
that was quite liberating to me professionally.

345
00:20:15.321 --> 00:20:19.070
And I feel I've actually done my, probably my best, my best work as a performer,

346
00:20:19.610 --> 00:20:21.650
since I've been a little bit less anxious about it,

347
00:20:21.651 --> 00:20:23.840
still sufficiently anxious to care, but not,

348
00:20:23.900 --> 00:20:25.550
not to that really paralyzing extent.

349
00:20:26.300 --> 00:20:29.540
But I did find that I had this wonderful new source of anxiety.

350
00:20:30.140 --> 00:20:34.790
I wrote another memoir and I'm not consciously right. Memorized with anxiety.

351
00:20:34.791 --> 00:20:37.310
I guess I'm just writing memoirs of what's obsessing at the time.

352
00:20:37.311 --> 00:20:40.850
And for a long time, that was music. And over the past four and a half years,

353
00:20:40.860 --> 00:20:42.110
it's been my kids.

354
00:20:42.740 --> 00:20:46.400
And so I thought I might actually read an excerpt from this book it's called

355
00:20:46.401 --> 00:20:47.980
welcome to your new. And it's,

356
00:20:48.050 --> 00:20:51.850
it's about that first sort of delirious year when you can't even really think

357
00:20:51.851 --> 00:20:54.340
straight. And when you have this thing,

358
00:20:54.341 --> 00:20:57.130
this new thing in your life that causes you to panic.

359
00:20:57.910 --> 00:21:01.350
And this is about when we had a, I think a two month old baby,

360
00:21:01.370 --> 00:21:03.340
we decided to try to take a holiday,

361
00:21:03.800 --> 00:21:06.850
not yet realizing that holidays are no longer possible.

362
00:21:08.141 --> 00:21:12.820
And I, it's the cost of this, this little excerpt to my partner,

363
00:21:13.270 --> 00:21:16.900
Nicholas and my child, my son, who I just referred to as you.

364
00:21:18.100 --> 00:21:22.450
And so we arrive at this holiday house in Apollo bay on the great ocean road.

365
00:21:23.530 --> 00:21:27.520
The house is spacious immaculate as a magazine spread with light flooding in,

366
00:21:27.521 --> 00:21:31.750
from all sides, there are wide decks, forest vistas, smooth linen,

367
00:21:31.751 --> 00:21:36.190
and find crockery and a large table of distressed wood on which I can write.

368
00:21:36.700 --> 00:21:38.950
It is a holiday house that promises everything,

369
00:21:39.220 --> 00:21:44.080
including the opportunity to reclaim myself. Why was it such a bargain?

370
00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:49.510
Nicholas takes out his camera to document the house, to confirm its existence.

371
00:21:49.780 --> 00:21:52.750
No idea. I feed and change.

372
00:21:52.751 --> 00:21:56.560
You has the dog rushes outside to caper on the lawns. Afterwards.

373
00:21:56.561 --> 00:22:00.550
I place you on the day bed by the window where you make celebrators noises and

374
00:22:00.551 --> 00:22:04.660
then abruptly fall asleep. That there's no air conditioning.

375
00:22:04.780 --> 00:22:07.990
Nicholas says coming in from the deck. Oh, once we open it up,

376
00:22:07.991 --> 00:22:11.980
there'll be a gully breeze. A golly breeds on top of a hill.

377
00:22:13.120 --> 00:22:16.750
I moved through the house, flinging doors and windows open. Of course,

378
00:22:18.280 --> 00:22:22.450
it's only when I go to the toilet that I discovered a floor in this paradise,

379
00:22:22.930 --> 00:22:26.290
there was a sign. This is a composting toilet.

380
00:22:26.590 --> 00:22:29.950
Please drop in a scoop of sawdust mixture. After every use,

381
00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:33.100
I opened the lid to an underground sea of,

382
00:22:33.790 --> 00:22:38.620
yawning back at me afterwards, there was not the closure of a flush,

383
00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:43.030
only a scoop of sawdust into its greedy. More quickly.

384
00:22:43.060 --> 00:22:45.640
I closed the lid, but it is too late.

385
00:22:46.390 --> 00:22:51.190
I have seen how you would fall that moment in which clumsiness takes

386
00:22:51.191 --> 00:22:55.240
over into disaster, the dense plummet of your body,

387
00:22:55.660 --> 00:22:57.130
the viscous splash

388
00:22:59.170 --> 00:23:01.960
the two small hole through which I could never follow you.

389
00:23:02.830 --> 00:23:05.830
It is yet another of these vortices, the sink holes.

390
00:23:06.010 --> 00:23:08.950
And even after I've run from the room and slammed the door,

391
00:23:09.070 --> 00:23:13.780
I feel it's sinister, gravitational pool. What's wrong.

392
00:23:13.930 --> 00:23:16.840
Asks Nicholas jiggling you on his lap in the living room.

393
00:23:17.590 --> 00:23:19.360
There's a long drop toilet.

394
00:23:20.290 --> 00:23:23.770
He stands to investigate and I snatch you from his arms.

395
00:23:24.220 --> 00:23:26.050
The baby must never go in there.

396
00:23:29.080 --> 00:23:31.240
I take you into the dining room and close the door.

397
00:23:32.830 --> 00:23:36.220
I don't think you should be scared of the toilet. And he says, coming in,

398
00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:40.240
what if the baby fell in? How would he get in there?

399
00:23:40.241 --> 00:23:42.040
He's incapable of locomotion.

400
00:23:43.780 --> 00:23:45.350
One of us might take him in

401
00:23:48.130 --> 00:23:50.110
so we won't take him in.

402
00:23:51.280 --> 00:23:53.890
But our holiday house has been exposed as a fraud,

403
00:23:53.920 --> 00:23:56.290
as a front for the composting toilet,

404
00:23:56.291 --> 00:24:00.100
with it's diabolical appetites in the kitchen,

405
00:24:00.101 --> 00:24:02.500
that the moment arises to 45 degrees.

406
00:24:02.530 --> 00:24:06.400
And the dog unravels another inch of pink tongue at dusk,

407
00:24:06.430 --> 00:24:08.590
a plague of insects descends upon the house.

408
00:24:08.710 --> 00:24:12.760
And we run from room to room closing windows so that the insects thud against

409
00:24:12.761 --> 00:24:17.470
the glass, I put you to bed and we sit down to watch the Sopranos.

410
00:24:18.040 --> 00:24:21.790
There are still no sign of a golly breeze. Always.

411
00:24:21.791 --> 00:24:26.200
I'm aware of the composting toilet of its patient waiting.

412
00:24:27.220 --> 00:24:31.180
It is too hot to be awake. And when we go to bed, it is too hot to be asleep.

413
00:24:31.510 --> 00:24:36.400
Even lying naked is an exertion. Nicholas falls asleep regardless.

414
00:24:36.460 --> 00:24:40.630
While my heart rate accelerates, I try to slow it with logic.

415
00:24:41.740 --> 00:24:44.170
You are in capable of locomotion.

416
00:24:44.770 --> 00:24:49.180
The only people capable of taking you into the composting toilet are me and

417
00:24:49.840 --> 00:24:53.530
Nicholas. I repeat these statements in my head as though counting sheep,

418
00:24:54.580 --> 00:24:57.070
you are in capable of locomotion.

419
00:24:57.400 --> 00:25:01.360
The only people capable of taking you into the composting toilet are me and

420
00:25:01.990 --> 00:25:05.620
Nicholas. I will not take you into the composting toilet.

421
00:25:07.690 --> 00:25:08.291
Therefore,

422
00:25:08.291 --> 00:25:11.650
the person who will take you into the composting toilet it's Nicholas.

423
00:25:12.520 --> 00:25:15.730
I knew it it's incontestable was a mathematical proof,

424
00:25:15.760 --> 00:25:18.850
but I turned it around further in my head searching for fallacies.

425
00:25:19.810 --> 00:25:22.300
Even though Nicholas has said, he will not take you in.

426
00:25:22.540 --> 00:25:24.670
He does not properly appreciate the threat.

427
00:25:25.660 --> 00:25:28.030
There is a danger that he will forget and take you anyway,

428
00:25:28.031 --> 00:25:29.740
and then accidentally drop you in.

429
00:25:30.790 --> 00:25:33.820
And there's the additional danger that he might take you in his sleep.

430
00:25:34.930 --> 00:25:37.330
It is important that I remain awake to prevent.

431
00:25:37.330 --> 00:25:39.640
<v 6>This, but.</v>

432
00:25:39.700 --> 00:25:42.490
<v Anna Goldsworthy>If I stay awake now I might fall asleep tomorrow,</v>

433
00:25:42.520 --> 00:25:45.580
leaving you alone with Nicholas and at greater risk,

434
00:25:47.260 --> 00:25:51.490
I get out of bed and arrange a small pile of suitcases by his side of the bed.

435
00:25:51.910 --> 00:25:55.420
So that if he gets up in the night, he will trip, alert me,

436
00:25:58.180 --> 00:26:01.300
climb back into bed and wrap my arms around him. My leaking breasts,

437
00:26:01.301 --> 00:26:05.650
adhering to his back. It's too hot. He tries to shake me off,

438
00:26:05.651 --> 00:26:09.730
but I classed my hands more tightly until his body slackens with sleep.

439
00:26:10.750 --> 00:26:13.090
You are incapable of locomotion.

440
00:26:14.380 --> 00:26:18.880
The only people capable of taking you in the composting toilet and me and

441
00:26:19.750 --> 00:26:23.680
Nicholas sometime around midnight, a baby mouse scurries into the room.

442
00:26:23.681 --> 00:26:26.860
And I shoot it with my hunting gun. Why did I have to do this?

443
00:26:26.861 --> 00:26:31.480
Who would have thought a small mouse could contain so much blood what's wrong?

444
00:26:31.990 --> 00:26:35.200
Nicholas asks, I just had the most terrible nightmare.

445
00:26:36.160 --> 00:26:37.630
He turns over what happened.

446
00:26:38.380 --> 00:26:42.940
I can scarcely talk through disorientation and terror. I tramped.

447
00:26:43.110 --> 00:26:46.770
I shot a mouse for a moment. He is still,

448
00:26:46.771 --> 00:26:49.860
but then his belly trembles laughter and he heaves himself up in bed.

449
00:26:50.910 --> 00:26:51.743
Where are you

450
00:26:53.150 --> 00:26:56.420
to the toilet before he's climbed out of bed.

451
00:26:56.421 --> 00:26:59.030
I've rushed to your room to stand century at your door.

452
00:27:00.050 --> 00:27:03.290
There a loud thud from the master bedroom. What the?

453
00:27:08.090 --> 00:27:09.440
I'm just checking on the baby.

454
00:27:09.500 --> 00:27:13.610
I explained as he limps by I'm still loitering by your door.

455
00:27:13.611 --> 00:27:16.760
When he returns. There's something you should know.

456
00:27:16.790 --> 00:27:18.500
He says taking my hands in his,

457
00:27:19.280 --> 00:27:22.910
I'm not planning to take the baby out of bed in order to drop him down the

458
00:27:23.330 --> 00:27:27.590
composite. I never thought you were.

459
00:27:29.870 --> 00:27:34.370
We returned to bed where he falls asleep in diversity. In my calculations,

460
00:27:35.600 --> 00:27:38.630
the only people have taken you into the composting toilet are me and Nicholas.

461
00:27:38.990 --> 00:27:41.450
I will not take you into the composting toilet.

462
00:27:42.380 --> 00:27:46.160
I sense a flaw in my logic, the dawning of a new possibility.

463
00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:49.970
What if I were to carry you there in my sleep?

464
00:27:51.050 --> 00:27:54.380
This is a Knight's move checkmate. If I cannot trust myself with you,

465
00:27:54.410 --> 00:27:59.030
whom can I trust tears, forming my eyes and try immediately in the heat.

466
00:27:59.090 --> 00:28:02.510
My pulse thoughts in my ears. As I lie there,

467
00:28:02.511 --> 00:28:07.070
paralyzed by fear of myself. Another sound starts in cross rhythm.

468
00:28:07.640 --> 00:28:12.050
A sound that part of me always knew was coming the urgent squeal of the smoke

469
00:28:12.051 --> 00:28:14.600
alarm. And then the smoke alarm goes off.

470
00:28:14.601 --> 00:28:17.870
And it looks as if we may be in the middle of a bushfire,

471
00:28:17.871 --> 00:28:20.540
which really added to my feeling of relaxation.

472
00:28:21.890 --> 00:28:24.260
And so I take the baby outside.

473
00:28:24.860 --> 00:28:27.680
I do not wish to return inside into that parody of shelter.

474
00:28:28.760 --> 00:28:32.240
If I'm holding you, I can monitor you for signs of dehydration.

475
00:28:32.900 --> 00:28:36.920
If I'm holding you, Nicolas cannot drop you into the composting toilet.

476
00:28:37.940 --> 00:28:40.880
If I remain awake, I will not be surprised by fire.

477
00:28:41.990 --> 00:28:45.920
I sit and wait, held, taught by my triangulated fears.

478
00:28:46.700 --> 00:28:51.290
How foolish to imagine we could escape the heat or exhaustion or our

479
00:28:51.291 --> 00:28:54.160
anxiety beneath my Palm.

480
00:28:54.170 --> 00:28:57.830
I feel the busy work if your digestion and I glanced down at the great dome of

481
00:28:57.831 --> 00:29:01.940
your sleeping head at your champagne, your nose at the beak of your upper lip,

482
00:29:02.780 --> 00:29:05.990
bringing a child into this world is exposing it to danger.

483
00:29:06.800 --> 00:29:11.270
I thought I understood this, that I had read the fine print blithely.

484
00:29:11.271 --> 00:29:13.520
I signed my name on the dotted line,

485
00:29:14.390 --> 00:29:17.480
but not being able to keep you safe is intolerable.

486
00:29:17.840 --> 00:29:21.470
Even if I succeed in shooting you from bushfire, from composting toilets,

487
00:29:21.500 --> 00:29:25.370
from intestinal spillage, from all the wormholes of daily existence,

488
00:29:25.400 --> 00:29:27.230
both natural and manmade,

489
00:29:27.800 --> 00:29:32.240
there is still the danger that you might suddenly die in the night for no reason

490
00:29:32.300 --> 00:29:35.480
at all. What cosmic sadist in Vince,

491
00:29:35.481 --> 00:29:40.190
such a system designed to torment parents and then throw sleep deprivation into

492
00:29:40.191 --> 00:29:44.800
the mix. And even if we managed to duck and weave the perils of infant hood than

493
00:29:44.801 --> 00:29:48.610
childhood and adolescence and make it through to adulthood, who was to say,

494
00:29:48.611 --> 00:29:52.210
you will not move to London and be struck down by hemorrhage during a routine

495
00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:57.190
operation. So, you know, speaking about anxiety attacks in the,

496
00:29:57.191 --> 00:29:59.170
in the way, small hours of the night,

497
00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:02.260
I'm sort of terribly I'm terribly prone to them. Yeah.

498
00:30:03.100 --> 00:30:07.330
And having children has just added this extra sort of extra element of,

499
00:30:07.630 --> 00:30:11.920
of night, night terror which is slightly,

500
00:30:11.950 --> 00:30:13.840
slightly less pronounced than it was a couple of years ago,

501
00:30:13.841 --> 00:30:18.150
but it's still very much, very much part of my life. Thank you, Anna.

502
00:30:26.040 --> 00:30:26.130
[inaudible].

503
00:30:26.130 --> 00:30:30.000
<v Julian Pierce>It's quite a raw experience, very well described.</v>

504
00:30:30.900 --> 00:30:34.680
I think you've left us all with a very strong image of sort of death by compost

505
00:30:34.710 --> 00:30:39.630
toilet as well. So so I'm sure there'll be questions for Anna,

506
00:30:39.660 --> 00:30:43.050
but I'm pleased to hand over to Peter Drew now. Thanks.

507
00:30:46.460 --> 00:30:49.370
<v Peter Drew>I think, yeah, that was a great story. I think I'd say it's,</v>

508
00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:50.473
I think we're all very

509
00:30:52.280 --> 00:30:56.990
familiar that anxiety is a terrific topic for comedy.

510
00:30:58.280 --> 00:31:01.970
But and anxiety does all sorts of different things. I mean,

511
00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:04.970
I feel a little bit anxious now, but it's,

512
00:31:04.971 --> 00:31:07.700
I don't think it's necessarily going to make me a better speaker.

513
00:31:07.820 --> 00:31:12.350
You you might have some anxiety later when you're looking for your car,

514
00:31:12.351 --> 00:31:14.510
trying to remember where you've parked at,

515
00:31:14.511 --> 00:31:18.200
but it's not necessarily going to make you better at fine again.

516
00:31:19.880 --> 00:31:22.510
I think that there are lots of different types of things already, but the,

517
00:31:22.511 --> 00:31:24.770
the top that we're really talking about today,

518
00:31:24.820 --> 00:31:29.750
or at least the top of that I think you is talking about is the sort of

519
00:31:29.780 --> 00:31:34.760
existential angst the type of anxiety about that Anna

520
00:31:34.761 --> 00:31:36.140
also touched on in the story about,

521
00:31:36.920 --> 00:31:41.660
about death about being aware that we are going to pass away and

522
00:31:41.690 --> 00:31:46.070
that everything that gives our life meaning will disappear as well.

523
00:31:46.670 --> 00:31:51.290
And I think that's when art does touch on those things that, sorry,

524
00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:54.890
that's very it's a, it's very powerful,

525
00:31:54.891 --> 00:31:56.660
but that's not everything that art does.

526
00:31:56.661 --> 00:31:58.850
Art can do all kinds of different things.

527
00:31:58.851 --> 00:32:02.750
And I don't think you need to feel anxiety to make great art.

528
00:32:03.500 --> 00:32:07.220
One thing I did want to speak about in particular is that it's a,

529
00:32:07.250 --> 00:32:11.960
it's a modern idea that this connection between anxiety and creativity,

530
00:32:11.961 --> 00:32:15.050
it's not something we associate with Renaissance artists. For instance,

531
00:32:15.051 --> 00:32:15.884
if you've read

532
00:32:17.540 --> 00:32:22.310
viscera and the the laws of great artists they are described as geniuses and

533
00:32:22.311 --> 00:32:26.510
their genius is about inspiration in terms of

534
00:32:27.290 --> 00:32:30.200
through religion and God. The,

535
00:32:30.320 --> 00:32:34.880
so Kiki OD mid 19th century talking about the relationship

536
00:32:34.881 --> 00:32:39.800
between creativity and anxiety is really the decline

537
00:32:39.801 --> 00:32:43.580
of arts relationship with religion.

538
00:32:44.210 --> 00:32:49.040
And then art needing to find some other way of filling that gap

539
00:32:49.070 --> 00:32:53.750
of saying that art can still bring spiritual truth excepted.

540
00:32:53.780 --> 00:32:57.470
It doesn't necessarily have to come through religion is coming through the

541
00:32:58.430 --> 00:33:03.410
individual's ability to feel a sort of mental stress anxiety

542
00:33:03.510 --> 00:33:07.580
going close to the point of insanity. I mean,

543
00:33:07.660 --> 00:33:12.320
it's sort of departing from what is the normal everyday sort of

544
00:33:12.321 --> 00:33:13.280
experience of the world.

545
00:33:13.281 --> 00:33:15.650
It's that waking up in the middle of the night and sort of having that,

546
00:33:16.050 --> 00:33:16.883
that feeling.

547
00:33:17.631 --> 00:33:22.490
And so you get artists like van Gogh who are like sort of a Messiah of that

548
00:33:22.491 --> 00:33:24.260
idea. He sort of,

549
00:33:24.261 --> 00:33:28.070
it actually destroyed him and the entire sort of sort of narrative that

550
00:33:28.071 --> 00:33:32.510
surrounds his life is one sort of struggling with anxiety to the point of

551
00:33:32.511 --> 00:33:36.980
insanity. But that's at a point when that idea was still somewhat fresh.

552
00:33:37.130 --> 00:33:40.370
It's the beginning of the modern era, then midway through the modern era,

553
00:33:40.371 --> 00:33:44.270
you get artists like Salvador Dali and surrealism, which is a,

554
00:33:44.670 --> 00:33:48.530
a sort of a method for drawing out mental stress.

555
00:33:48.590 --> 00:33:53.510
And it becomes a performance. I mean, anyone that is familiar with Dali's work,

556
00:33:54.140 --> 00:33:56.030
I mean, I like it as much as the next person,

557
00:33:56.031 --> 00:33:59.510
but you have to admit that he's aware that he's acting a little bit crazy and

558
00:33:59.511 --> 00:34:03.800
that has a sort of a performative aspect to it. So,

559
00:34:03.830 --> 00:34:07.190
and then in the contemporary era,

560
00:34:07.191 --> 00:34:12.080
it seems that the idea is less and less fashionable to be crazy

561
00:34:12.530 --> 00:34:15.230
or to have anxiety. And that, that sort of

562
00:34:16.970 --> 00:34:21.350
personal hardship is what you use to imbue your art with value.

563
00:34:21.500 --> 00:34:25.910
I think that there are the sort of work that I like to make. I,

564
00:34:26.510 --> 00:34:28.150
I hope that I,

565
00:34:28.600 --> 00:34:32.330
there there's times when it does sort of require some sort of personal anxiety

566
00:34:32.331 --> 00:34:33.950
and that's in the work and I,

567
00:34:34.090 --> 00:34:38.420
and I love art that shows that you can see that the artist has somehow suffered,

568
00:34:38.421 --> 00:34:41.060
or at least that they're aware of some sort of personal suffering,

569
00:34:41.090 --> 00:34:45.260
but I'm very interested in work, which is more collaborative.

570
00:34:46.100 --> 00:34:50.960
And it's much more about explaining things out in the world. I mean,

571
00:34:51.110 --> 00:34:54.530
art, which is a sort of politically focused doesn't,

572
00:34:54.531 --> 00:34:59.180
you didn't necessarily care whether the artist had a tough upbringing and they

573
00:34:59.450 --> 00:35:01.580
can't sleep at night. If they,

574
00:35:01.581 --> 00:35:06.050
if they are saying something profound about how we can get along,

575
00:35:06.740 --> 00:35:10.040
get along better as a society. So I can do all sorts of different things.

576
00:35:10.100 --> 00:35:14.300
I'd say that definitely anxiety does help out, but it is not necessary.

577
00:35:15.620 --> 00:35:17.870
And I think we should be very skeptical of the idea that

578
00:35:19.400 --> 00:35:23.900
artists feeling anxiety is the only way that you can give some spiritual worth

579
00:35:23.930 --> 00:35:27.260
or some existential worth to, to art.

580
00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:29.071
In,

581
00:35:29.071 --> 00:35:33.350
in terms of my own work what I actually look for and the thing that I sort of

582
00:35:33.351 --> 00:35:36.020
focus on rather than focusing on my own anxiety,

583
00:35:36.920 --> 00:35:41.250
I on conflict between different people,

584
00:35:41.251 --> 00:35:46.020
myself and institutions myself and other artists. And I think that's,

585
00:35:46.470 --> 00:35:49.740
that's how I find value that take, for example,

586
00:35:49.741 --> 00:35:54.480
what happened with the school I was studying at the Glasgow school of art,

587
00:35:54.481 --> 00:35:56.880
and they accepted me on the basis of my street art,

588
00:35:56.881 --> 00:36:00.420
which was the vast majority of which was illegal.

589
00:36:01.110 --> 00:36:04.200
And then halfway through the course, they decided to kick me out,

590
00:36:04.920 --> 00:36:08.190
not saying I kicked me out, but to stop me from doing that or kick me out.

591
00:36:08.191 --> 00:36:10.710
And I was given the choice of stop the illegal work,

592
00:36:10.740 --> 00:36:15.660
or we'll kick you out of the school. And, and I sort of,

593
00:36:15.960 --> 00:36:19.410
I thought this is the conflict. This is, this is an interesting thing.

594
00:36:19.411 --> 00:36:22.620
It's sort of, it's going to give more meaning to what I'm doing.

595
00:36:22.680 --> 00:36:27.330
I didn't want to sort of I don't think it really had very much to do with

596
00:36:28.831 --> 00:36:31.050
the fact that I was going to die or anything like that.

597
00:36:31.050 --> 00:36:34.530
And it was more that when people have disagreements because they have different

598
00:36:34.531 --> 00:36:38.220
values, should explore those and, and draw out the conflict in know,

599
00:36:38.550 --> 00:36:41.220
in a mature way. And it mostly emotionally was mature.

600
00:36:43.620 --> 00:36:48.180
But I'm glad that it all sort of turned out well in the end and it,

601
00:36:48.840 --> 00:36:52.230
and it did definitely give that sort of I guess what that's,

602
00:36:52.231 --> 00:36:54.180
what anxiety does as well. And any conflict,

603
00:36:54.181 --> 00:36:56.160
it puts things under enormous pressure.

604
00:36:56.161 --> 00:37:00.690
You sort of feel the stress and the weight of everything and that

605
00:37:00.691 --> 00:37:04.620
conflict really yeah. Putting on a great deal of pressure.

606
00:37:04.680 --> 00:37:06.810
Now I can look back and, and just sort of laugh about it,

607
00:37:06.811 --> 00:37:10.680
but at the time it was going to get kicked out and, and sent home.

608
00:37:10.681 --> 00:37:14.550
So it was it wasn't much fun, but I think it helped in the end. So.

609
00:37:15.380 --> 00:37:16.213
<v 7>Yeah, I think.</v>

610
00:37:17.180 --> 00:37:20.510
<v Julian Pierce>Perhaps just be interesting to talk a little bit about that experience at</v>

611
00:37:20.511 --> 00:37:20.931
Glasgow,

612
00:37:20.931 --> 00:37:25.580
because art was used to be a place that sort of nurtured anxiety and

613
00:37:26.660 --> 00:37:31.610
and I guess really nurtured that sort of expression from students. And,

614
00:37:31.850 --> 00:37:36.230
but it seems that art schools themselves are full of anxiety into,

615
00:37:36.231 --> 00:37:39.470
and setting rules and boundaries. And, you know,

616
00:37:39.680 --> 00:37:44.480
for you as an artist to be supported, to create a body of work,

617
00:37:44.780 --> 00:37:49.400
that then they, they sort of stop you from, from doing that by their rules.

618
00:37:49.401 --> 00:37:52.610
I mean, how was, I mean, how was that for you being in an art school?

619
00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:56.780
Cause I think there is this whole shift and I mean, you alluded to that,

620
00:37:56.781 --> 00:38:01.400
that the role that how art is being created is shifting and,

621
00:38:01.580 --> 00:38:04.490
you know, because there isn't that anxiety or that political

622
00:38:06.170 --> 00:38:10.980
sort of pressure that the art schools are embracing that as well as a model for

623
00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:12.193
learning.

624
00:38:12.530 --> 00:38:15.980
<v Peter Drew>Yeah. Well, I definitely didn't expect to find the content that I did.</v>

625
00:38:15.981 --> 00:38:20.660
I expected to find a nurturing environment in which I'd be sort of a, well,

626
00:38:20.661 --> 00:38:25.130
not mighty cold, but sort of a taken care of, and, but had my ideas challenge.

627
00:38:25.160 --> 00:38:30.080
But I think I was really surprised to find as much insecurity as,

628
00:38:30.170 --> 00:38:31.250
as I, as I did.

629
00:38:32.270 --> 00:38:37.000
Something that I remember when I studied I did my

630
00:38:37.001 --> 00:38:39.460
undergraduate degree in psychology and Adelaide university.

631
00:38:39.610 --> 00:38:43.540
And one of the most interesting things I remember learning about the way that

632
00:38:43.870 --> 00:38:48.460
academics sort of carry themselves is that just the way that there's a tendency

633
00:38:48.461 --> 00:38:49.294
amongst

634
00:38:50.740 --> 00:38:54.790
the mathematicians and academics that of a discipline,

635
00:38:54.791 --> 00:38:58.120
which is quantifiable and you can easily show the value of what you're doing

636
00:38:58.510 --> 00:39:01.540
such as mathematicians. You can either solve the equation where you can't,

637
00:39:01.870 --> 00:39:03.580
they have a way of sort of

638
00:39:05.410 --> 00:39:08.410
letting themselves go physically or sort of not, I mean,

639
00:39:08.470 --> 00:39:10.500
in terms of their parents, you know, it happens to all of us,

640
00:39:13.590 --> 00:39:14.700
but the, the, the,

641
00:39:14.701 --> 00:39:19.050
the point I'm making is that they they they don't

642
00:39:19.620 --> 00:39:21.990
they can, like, everyone knows how good they are.

643
00:39:22.020 --> 00:39:23.430
They don't have to show off in a way,

644
00:39:23.431 --> 00:39:25.920
whereas when the things are not so quantifiable,

645
00:39:25.921 --> 00:39:30.330
very subjective things like visual art or anything in the arts people

646
00:39:31.260 --> 00:39:31.740
there's,

647
00:39:31.740 --> 00:39:36.570
there's a lot more affectation in terms of how people sort of display and

648
00:39:36.571 --> 00:39:41.370
externalize their status because there's no way for them to actually

649
00:39:41.371 --> 00:39:45.990
prove it. Sorry,

650
00:39:45.991 --> 00:39:48.330
I just realized, I'm not sure how it got onto it, but I mean.

651
00:39:50.640 --> 00:39:55.140
<v Gary Greenberg>That's, that's a really interesting point because if you think about the way the</v>

652
00:39:55.141 --> 00:39:58.200
institutions, this is probably maybe too much parochial,

653
00:39:58.380 --> 00:40:00.360
but the institutions that we work in,

654
00:40:00.690 --> 00:40:03.810
whether it's the art institutions or the writing institutions,

655
00:40:03.990 --> 00:40:08.850
they're set up to create maximum anxiety for us content providers. Sure.

656
00:40:08.910 --> 00:40:09.661
You know, there's a,

657
00:40:09.661 --> 00:40:13.440
there's a way in which that insecurity that you're describing is what the

658
00:40:13.441 --> 00:40:16.590
business side of it thrives on. They, you know,

659
00:40:16.620 --> 00:40:21.210
keeping us guessing about where the next money is coming from,

660
00:40:21.211 --> 00:40:25.230
where the next approval is coming from the whole criticism business. I mean,

661
00:40:25.680 --> 00:40:28.290
it's, it's true that it's if, if artists,

662
00:40:28.500 --> 00:40:30.690
if a anxiety's wellspring of art,

663
00:40:30.691 --> 00:40:34.710
then they're doing a really good job of cultivating it for us. Yeah.

664
00:40:34.710 --> 00:40:36.360
<v Anna Goldsworthy>I think I agree. And I think in a musical setting,</v>

665
00:40:36.361 --> 00:40:38.550
you also have international music competitions,

666
00:40:38.580 --> 00:40:40.590
which are just designed to torture people. You know,

667
00:40:40.980 --> 00:40:44.190
I heard a commentator say that the sort of irony is what you're seeking in

668
00:40:44.191 --> 00:40:45.060
these, in these,

669
00:40:45.150 --> 00:40:50.040
in these fora is artists who have these incredibly sensitive souls.

670
00:40:50.041 --> 00:40:50.791
And yet at the same time,

671
00:40:50.791 --> 00:40:53.850
you have to have the height of a rhinoceros now who can reconcile these two

672
00:40:53.851 --> 00:40:55.800
things. But you can only really, I suppose,

673
00:40:55.920 --> 00:40:57.870
when an international piano competition, if you somehow,

674
00:40:58.080 --> 00:40:59.640
paradoxically managed to have both.

675
00:40:59.880 --> 00:41:04.440
And likewise masterclass is a very large part of, of growing up as a musician,

676
00:41:04.441 --> 00:41:07.980
which is essentially sort of a gladiatorial forum in which you're just subject

677
00:41:07.981 --> 00:41:09.720
to public humiliation.

678
00:41:10.050 --> 00:41:13.110
<v 6>So yeah, they, they're doing a great job. What is it,</v>

679
00:41:13.111 --> 00:41:16.350
what does it tell you makes you stronger? Yeah.

680
00:41:16.640 --> 00:41:21.450
<v Julian Pierce>We've got about 15 minutes for, for questions, please. Don't be shy.</v>

681
00:41:21.570 --> 00:41:24.510
We've covered a lot of ground here and, you know,

682
00:41:24.511 --> 00:41:27.600
we're really keen for you to contribute as well.

683
00:41:31.560 --> 00:41:32.910
<v Anna Goldsworthy>Hi, I've just got a question.</v>

684
00:41:33.380 --> 00:41:37.460
Just something that Gary mentioned right at the beginning was talking about

685
00:41:37.461 --> 00:41:42.140
training for dealing with negative emotions now if you're

686
00:41:42.141 --> 00:41:44.600
training children to be in this, you know,

687
00:41:44.630 --> 00:41:48.170
21st century world would you subject a, not,

688
00:41:48.410 --> 00:41:52.100
it's just a hypothetical idea to a concert where there,

689
00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:55.250
they actually have to make mistakes and they're going to be criticized and stuff

690
00:41:55.251 --> 00:41:57.290
like that to make them stronger,

691
00:41:57.620 --> 00:42:01.310
or like like trying to deal with these negative emotions,

692
00:42:01.311 --> 00:42:02.091
like they're going to happen.

693
00:42:02.091 --> 00:42:07.040
But if you have a child that's just had lots and lots of praise from the

694
00:42:07.041 --> 00:42:07.910
beginning is the,

695
00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:12.500
you know what do you suggest if you're a for teachers

696
00:42:12.800 --> 00:42:17.570
or for people even adults to do with negative

697
00:42:17.571 --> 00:42:20.000
emotions or if they have anxiety? Well, I.

698
00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:22.630
<v Gary Greenberg>I, I personally don't think we've done our children,</v>

699
00:42:22.840 --> 00:42:26.950
any great service by focusing so much on what's great about them.

700
00:42:27.580 --> 00:42:32.290
And or by, and I'm not sure I fully understand the shift,

701
00:42:32.740 --> 00:42:36.280
the cultural shift whereby whereby this has happened.

702
00:42:36.940 --> 00:42:40.870
The idea that we, we protect them from suffering,

703
00:42:41.500 --> 00:42:43.870
it's sort of like the idea that we protect them from germs,

704
00:42:44.200 --> 00:42:45.910
which we've also done a good job at,

705
00:42:45.911 --> 00:42:49.300
and that's seems to be where a lot of the asthma is coming from.

706
00:42:49.540 --> 00:42:54.400
It's it you know, it, I, I think that when it comes to parenting,

707
00:42:54.820 --> 00:42:59.560
the important distinction regarding anxiety is whether it's about us or

708
00:42:59.561 --> 00:43:00.394
about them.

709
00:43:00.820 --> 00:43:04.000
And I think a lot of the times when we're trying to protect our children from

710
00:43:04.001 --> 00:43:04.750
suffering,

711
00:43:04.750 --> 00:43:08.830
we're protecting ourselves because we feel it so intensely and watching your

712
00:43:08.831 --> 00:43:13.720
child suffer or bearing the consequences of their suffering is really a hard

713
00:43:13.721 --> 00:43:16.690
thing to do. But sometimes it's what you have to do. Adam Phillips,

714
00:43:16.810 --> 00:43:21.730
who's a brilliant psychoanalyst in England wrote that the biggest job of

715
00:43:21.731 --> 00:43:23.680
parenting is learning how to let your children hate you.

716
00:43:24.610 --> 00:43:26.860
And it's absolutely true.

717
00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:30.730
And that means that you have to be able to tolerate that feeling.

718
00:43:30.850 --> 00:43:35.830
And it also conveys to them that they can tolerate the feeling of whatever it

719
00:43:35.831 --> 00:43:39.310
is they're feeling. You know, you don't jump in to rescue them from it. So.

720
00:43:39.880 --> 00:43:42.850
<v Anna Goldsworthy>So would you think exposing them to more to negative situations?</v>

721
00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:43.720
We should just beat him.

722
00:43:49.810 --> 00:43:52.630
<v Julian Pierce>The second time of her that came up in your,</v>

723
00:43:55.360 --> 00:43:59.110
okay. This is a question more of a Anna, you said so eloquently.

724
00:43:59.560 --> 00:44:03.070
<v Gary Greenberg>When you describe the anxiety that comes from your performance and the sort of</v>

725
00:44:03.220 --> 00:44:05.290
compulsive nature of being a performer,

726
00:44:05.710 --> 00:44:09.010
I was just wondering when you get to that point where your performance and music

727
00:44:09.160 --> 00:44:12.760
is the source of that sort of paralytic style anxiety,

728
00:44:13.030 --> 00:44:16.960
how has you resolve that and potentially even use that to be able to perform

729
00:44:16.961 --> 00:44:17.794
despite it?

730
00:44:18.520 --> 00:44:21.010
<v Anna Goldsworthy>Yeah, I think he developed a fitness for probably,</v>

731
00:44:21.011 --> 00:44:25.210
and it's about being exposed to that anxiety over many years and you develop

732
00:44:25.211 --> 00:44:28.870
strategies to, for, for dealing with it, which is not just that, you know,

733
00:44:28.960 --> 00:44:29.890
any of us, any,

734
00:44:29.891 --> 00:44:33.750
any performance is subject to occasionally being ambushed by paralyzing anxiety,

735
00:44:34.230 --> 00:44:36.900
you know, violinists speak about just getting the bow shakes out of nowhere.

736
00:44:37.500 --> 00:44:42.210
And I mean, for me, there's an aspect of surrender that has allowed me to,

737
00:44:42.270 --> 00:44:45.240
if you prepared and you get up on stage, and then you just sort of it's,

738
00:44:45.390 --> 00:44:48.570
it's in the, it's in the hands of the angels and it's a kind of leap of faith,

739
00:44:48.571 --> 00:44:51.450
but that's something that's sort of helped me help me get through it.

740
00:44:51.750 --> 00:44:54.450
I also think the more you practice my teacher,

741
00:44:54.451 --> 00:44:57.360
my piano teacher always set the stage must be like another room in your house.

742
00:44:57.720 --> 00:44:59.190
It's not, it's not quite that for me yet,

743
00:44:59.220 --> 00:45:01.470
but it's certainly a much less terrifying place than it.

744
00:45:01.471 --> 00:45:04.410
Once was any other tips for young musicians?

745
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:09.450
Oh gosh, there's a book load of them. It's called piano lessons.

746
00:45:13.370 --> 00:45:16.100
<v Peter Drew>Peter, you you mentioned.</v>

747
00:45:16.100 --> 00:45:16.933
<v Gary Greenberg>That you,</v>

748
00:45:17.150 --> 00:45:21.650
or you expressed skepticism that anxiety is required

749
00:45:22.160 --> 00:45:26.930
or that anxiety is a driving force behind a lot of art.

750
00:45:26.990 --> 00:45:30.860
And then you went on to say that you

751
00:45:31.700 --> 00:45:36.080
conflict drives a lot of your work isn't that essentially

752
00:45:37.490 --> 00:45:41.990
then feeding on the audience's own anxieties in response to that

753
00:45:41.991 --> 00:45:45.680
conflict. And therefore, actually you still

754
00:45:47.270 --> 00:45:50.840
your, that the perception of your aunt's still requiring the anxiety.

755
00:45:50.841 --> 00:45:54.440
Just not from you, it's from the other side, inflicting it. Yeah, yeah.

756
00:45:57.650 --> 00:45:58.670
<v Peter Drew>Thought of it that way. That's quite,</v>

757
00:45:58.700 --> 00:46:01.400
that's quite a funny funny way of putting it. I mean,

758
00:46:01.730 --> 00:46:06.590
I guess it depends on how broad you want to make the the definition of anxiety.

759
00:46:06.591 --> 00:46:09.290
I really just wanted to make the point that I mean,

760
00:46:09.320 --> 00:46:13.040
there's the anxiety that you are meant to feel because, you know,

761
00:46:13.041 --> 00:46:17.210
you're going to, you're going to die and that becoming into

762
00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:22.760
creating work. It's the that existential angst.

763
00:46:22.850 --> 00:46:25.910
I think that all art must have anxiety in it.

764
00:46:25.911 --> 00:46:28.040
If someone made art without any

765
00:46:29.840 --> 00:46:31.820
any sort of grain of anxiety, then that would.

766
00:46:33.890 --> 00:46:38.300
<v Gary Greenberg>Yeah, no, it looks like oil Elvis on oil painting, oil painting on velvet,</v>

767
00:46:38.330 --> 00:46:39.163
you know.

768
00:46:39.710 --> 00:46:42.380
<v Peter Drew>Well, I mean, it's, it's, it's actually, I mean, it's look,</v>

769
00:46:42.410 --> 00:46:45.080
there are contemporary artists now that sort of claim to not feel it. I mean,

770
00:46:45.110 --> 00:46:46.220
Jeff Koons is a good example.

771
00:46:46.221 --> 00:46:50.450
He even sort of claims that he doesn't feel any sort of anxiety in his work.

772
00:46:50.570 --> 00:46:53.480
It's like a deliberate pose to sort of go against the the,

773
00:46:53.650 --> 00:46:57.890
like the modernist requirements of being an artist. You have to be tortured and

774
00:46:59.570 --> 00:47:03.230
and it's so difficult to make it, so he sort of says, I don't feel any anxiety.

775
00:47:03.231 --> 00:47:06.770
And it turns out these sort of a serene shiny

776
00:47:07.850 --> 00:47:09.620
dogs. I mean, it's, it doesn't,

777
00:47:10.340 --> 00:47:15.020
it does much opposers as as it is to be crazy and sort of ought to be,

778
00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:19.490
to anxiety written. So I think that it's, it's anxiety is optional, I guess,

779
00:47:19.491 --> 00:47:20.580
is what I'd say. Yeah.

780
00:47:21.050 --> 00:47:24.980
<v Gary Greenberg>Can I come in on that com I thought I was really intrigued by that comment also.</v>

781
00:47:25.670 --> 00:47:29.150
And, and I, and the example you said was, was the Renaissance.

782
00:47:29.590 --> 00:47:32.530
And what's interesting about that is that prior to the Renaissance,

783
00:47:32.531 --> 00:47:34.870
and really just at the end of the Renaissance, there,

784
00:47:34.871 --> 00:47:38.770
wasn't really very much of an idea of inner life. You know, this,

785
00:47:38.771 --> 00:47:41.830
this idea that our inner life is important, and we should pay attention to it.

786
00:47:41.831 --> 00:47:43.480
If at least if you weren't an aristocrat,

787
00:47:43.481 --> 00:47:47.260
and even then that's why the confessions of Saint Augustine are so

788
00:47:47.800 --> 00:47:49.480
incredible for their time.

789
00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:54.580
And it's why Shakespeare is so sort of the beginning of this idea of

790
00:47:54.610 --> 00:47:58.330
introspection. And so I think that it's, it's a really,

791
00:47:58.331 --> 00:48:00.040
I've never really made that connection before,

792
00:48:00.041 --> 00:48:04.840
but that is a really interesting difference between art prior to the age of the

793
00:48:04.841 --> 00:48:08.610
modern self and what we have now. Sure. Yeah. That's.

794
00:48:10.760 --> 00:48:13.530
<v 9>In fact, I was reading a book talking about that just last night,</v>

795
00:48:13.560 --> 00:48:16.920
which is great, and the idea too, that

796
00:48:18.420 --> 00:48:21.090
you know, genius, wasn't something you own Janie.

797
00:48:21.120 --> 00:48:24.480
The Janie's lived in the wall and they came out and,

798
00:48:25.050 --> 00:48:27.510
and you weren't responsible for your book.

799
00:48:27.540 --> 00:48:29.790
It was if you had good luck of bad luck,

800
00:48:29.791 --> 00:48:33.900
whether the Janie's who lived in your house, work with good writers or not

801
00:48:35.880 --> 00:48:39.540
having thought about the middle of the night, quite a lot,

802
00:48:39.541 --> 00:48:42.270
being an anxious person, sorry, this is a very convoluted,

803
00:48:42.930 --> 00:48:44.340
it's a very convoluted question.

804
00:48:46.530 --> 00:48:49.620
A couple of things come to mind when it's the Chinese thing about your different

805
00:48:49.621 --> 00:48:53.040
organs processing things at different times, and it's like, okay,

806
00:48:53.041 --> 00:48:54.630
four o'clock it's your liver.

807
00:48:54.840 --> 00:48:57.390
So if you've had too much to drink or meaning heavy food, it's,

808
00:48:57.391 --> 00:49:01.430
that's delivering anxiety. But there's another,

809
00:49:01.470 --> 00:49:06.180
I was reading a little while ago about the idea of the middle of the night.

810
00:49:06.180 --> 00:49:07.110
Once upon a time,

811
00:49:07.140 --> 00:49:10.950
we all got up in the middle of the night there was the middle of the night

812
00:49:10.951 --> 00:49:13.500
prayers, the middle of the night poetry.

813
00:49:13.680 --> 00:49:18.180
You could visit other people in the middle of the night and that human beings

814
00:49:18.181 --> 00:49:20.970
are actually in a different state of sleep.

815
00:49:21.030 --> 00:49:23.580
So that today's idea of modern anxiety.

816
00:49:23.630 --> 00:49:27.360
It was actually that time of awakeness in the middle of the night was actually a

817
00:49:27.361 --> 00:49:32.340
time of meditation, of creativity, of prayer, of connection, of self,

818
00:49:32.341 --> 00:49:36.660
of connection of others in a really quiet way that we've really lost

819
00:49:37.650 --> 00:49:41.040
these days. So that's not a question either.

820
00:49:42.870 --> 00:49:43.770
What do you think of that? But

821
00:49:47.330 --> 00:49:50.520
I guess my question is speaking a minute ago about Jeff Koons.

822
00:49:50.521 --> 00:49:54.090
I know for myself as a creative person, we're not been incredibly happy.

823
00:49:54.150 --> 00:49:57.120
I've been going, what the hell do I make art about?

824
00:49:57.480 --> 00:50:01.380
What the hell do I write about how can I be happy and flowery and

825
00:50:01.890 --> 00:50:04.260
bright and joyful. And.

826
00:50:05.580 --> 00:50:09.210
<v Anna Goldsworthy>There is that cliche, you know, happiness writes white.</v>

827
00:50:09.720 --> 00:50:11.670
It doesn't necessarily have any meaning on the page.

828
00:50:11.730 --> 00:50:13.110
I don't know if it's entirely true. I mean,

829
00:50:13.111 --> 00:50:16.620
it's sort of sad to think that we have to cultivate angst in order to create,

830
00:50:17.250 --> 00:50:18.930
and yet it can be a, you can be useful,

831
00:50:18.990 --> 00:50:21.630
I guess it's sort of like the oyster making a pill and in the shell,

832
00:50:21.631 --> 00:50:24.060
it's the irritant, isn't it an and trying to work away out of it,

833
00:50:24.061 --> 00:50:28.610
or is sometimes the way to make something beautiful. And is that a bad thing?

834
00:50:28.640 --> 00:50:32.420
<v 9>I mean, why is anxiety uncomfortable? Why, you know,</v>

835
00:50:34.190 --> 00:50:38.090
Keats and Byron, and, you know, the melancholy poets,

836
00:50:38.780 --> 00:50:43.440
we wouldn't have had that poetry, if they'd all be on any depressants. Well.

837
00:50:43.580 --> 00:50:46.370
<v Anna Goldsworthy>Let's this notion too. And I think, you know, Gary sort of touched on this,</v>

838
00:50:46.400 --> 00:50:48.980
are we designed to be happy 24 7? I don't think we are.

839
00:50:48.981 --> 00:50:52.790
I think we're designed to exist with a degree of discomfort and do we medicate

840
00:50:52.791 --> 00:50:54.290
our way out of that? Do we try to cure us?

841
00:50:54.470 --> 00:50:56.930
But sometimes the process of trying to deal with that,

842
00:50:57.140 --> 00:51:00.860
I think actually ends up being the creative creative process. At least for me.

843
00:51:02.410 --> 00:51:04.330
<v Julian Pierce>I also think there are some very inherent,</v>

844
00:51:04.480 --> 00:51:08.650
and I think this idea of anxiety and creativity as a modern phenomenon or

845
00:51:08.890 --> 00:51:10.630
creativity coming out of anxiety,

846
00:51:10.810 --> 00:51:13.060
because a lot of what I think you've been talking about your,

847
00:51:13.120 --> 00:51:16.780
about your experience of masterclasses and concerts is this whole flight or

848
00:51:16.781 --> 00:51:21.610
fright, you know, and it's like, your compulsion is to run and leave the room,

849
00:51:21.640 --> 00:51:26.250
but you know, you stay and you, you, you play the music and know,

850
00:51:26.330 --> 00:51:30.820
I think there is some very, you know, I don't want to sound a central,

851
00:51:30.821 --> 00:51:31.654
but there, you know,

852
00:51:32.170 --> 00:51:37.000
in built into us is this sort of capacity to overcome that and go, okay,

853
00:51:37.001 --> 00:51:40.930
I'm going to sit here at the piano. And and I'm just, I mean,

854
00:51:40.931 --> 00:51:43.000
what would be your response to that perhaps Peter,

855
00:51:43.001 --> 00:51:45.970
that I'm just interested to flat out this, you know,

856
00:51:46.030 --> 00:51:49.090
in the few minutes we've got left. I mean, why is it such a modern concept? Oh,

857
00:51:49.140 --> 00:51:50.770
and there are a couple of questions. So.

858
00:51:53.350 --> 00:51:57.990
<v Peter Drew>So why this such a modern concept that anxiety and creativity connect together?</v>

859
00:51:58.120 --> 00:52:01.150
Well, I think, I think that it's actually less and less than fashion.

860
00:52:01.781 --> 00:52:02.614
I think that

861
00:52:04.090 --> 00:52:08.920
irony is so much more in fashion in creative fields and that doesn't really

862
00:52:08.921 --> 00:52:13.450
require any in fact requires sort of a denial of anxiety in a way. Well,

863
00:52:13.990 --> 00:52:17.970
I don't, I mean, to me, irony is a good way of curing anxiety. It's, it's,

864
00:52:17.971 --> 00:52:21.850
it's laughing it off. It's realizing that the world's pretty absurd.

865
00:52:21.851 --> 00:52:25.000
We're going to die. We're here, we've got all these meetings surrounding us and,

866
00:52:25.390 --> 00:52:28.240
but you know what, and it's all going to go and that's, that's kind of ironic.

867
00:52:32.621 --> 00:52:35.920
That's and that's the way I like to create as well. I mean, that's, I,

868
00:52:35.921 --> 00:52:40.840
I slightly distrust any art that doesn't have at least some sort of

869
00:52:41.320 --> 00:52:45.820
element of wit or, or irony in there. If it's too,

870
00:52:46.870 --> 00:52:51.760
I mean, I, yeah, I do love seeing work that is obviously the the artist has,

871
00:52:51.850 --> 00:52:55.120
has suffered and and the anxiety is there,

872
00:52:55.121 --> 00:52:59.800
but but it's sort of, it's, there's an element of vanity to that as well.

873
00:52:59.801 --> 00:53:04.390
That sort of, that person's inner inspiration is so important.

874
00:53:04.570 --> 00:53:09.130
It is. It's nice to sort of to see that they,

875
00:53:09.180 --> 00:53:12.670
they don't take themselves too seriously as well. So I like, I like irony if.

876
00:53:12.670 --> 00:53:12.821
<v Gary Greenberg>You,</v>

877
00:53:12.821 --> 00:53:15.760
if you think about that fight and flight thing that you've just mentioned as an

878
00:53:15.761 --> 00:53:19.200
old, you know, evolutionarily developed thing for one,

879
00:53:19.201 --> 00:53:21.250
whatever we were doing a hundred thousand years ago,

880
00:53:21.550 --> 00:53:23.260
and then you put it into the modern world.

881
00:53:23.590 --> 00:53:27.330
What you create is the grounds feeling an incur,

882
00:53:27.390 --> 00:53:30.060
an intense feeling and not knowing whether to believe it,

883
00:53:30.900 --> 00:53:34.920
the anxiety demands to be believed in it demands to be disbelieved at the same

884
00:53:34.921 --> 00:53:38.520
time. And that conflict, I think, creates a space.

885
00:53:39.150 --> 00:53:43.830
And that space is where this creativity comes from. If,

886
00:53:43.831 --> 00:53:46.350
to the extent that it's going to inform your creativity,

887
00:53:46.351 --> 00:53:47.250
that's where it comes from.

888
00:53:47.251 --> 00:53:51.870
It's this conflict between us being animals running around on the Savannah

889
00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:56.630
and us living in a world that's like this. Okay.

890
00:53:56.631 --> 00:53:57.980
Another couple of questions.

891
00:53:57.980 --> 00:53:58.880
<v Anna Goldsworthy>Before we finish.</v>

892
00:54:00.020 --> 00:54:04.990
My question there's with the discussion has been a lot about death and add

893
00:54:04.991 --> 00:54:05.824
anxiety,

894
00:54:06.200 --> 00:54:10.040
but historically looking back at before the Renaissance,

895
00:54:10.430 --> 00:54:14.900
the whole idea that humans are the only animals that can recognize death.

896
00:54:14.930 --> 00:54:19.070
I think from my understanding that's where religion has come from. So we're,

897
00:54:19.340 --> 00:54:22.730
we're aware that we're going to die. So we've created a life after death.

898
00:54:23.000 --> 00:54:26.810
And I think in the Renaissance, all of those artists and those thinkers,

899
00:54:26.840 --> 00:54:30.200
they had religion to back them up. They had that to dispel their anxiety.

900
00:54:30.350 --> 00:54:34.220
So there wasn't so much anxiety in their work because there was religion to help

901
00:54:34.221 --> 00:54:39.110
that. And then I guess through more modern tires along came science.

902
00:54:39.500 --> 00:54:40.460
And, you know,

903
00:54:40.490 --> 00:54:45.050
even when you were speaking about all those poets that had all that accent and

904
00:54:45.051 --> 00:54:50.030
that anx from German at that Germany in that specific time of the 19th and

905
00:54:50.031 --> 00:54:54.800
20th centuries, religion was taking a back step to science.

906
00:54:54.860 --> 00:54:59.720
So there was more anxiety to take care of our fears than

907
00:54:59.721 --> 00:55:03.710
religion to take care of our fears. So through the discussions today,

908
00:55:03.740 --> 00:55:06.770
I'm hearing anxiety and fear and death,

909
00:55:06.800 --> 00:55:11.390
but I just want to know what delineates, anxiety and fear, well,

910
00:55:11.391 --> 00:55:14.990
if there's a rational fear or being anxious about something that's about to

911
00:55:14.991 --> 00:55:17.510
happen or just fear in general.

912
00:55:22.290 --> 00:55:23.123
Yeah.

913
00:55:23.630 --> 00:55:26.810
<v Gary Greenberg>I would, I would just say that the distinction I just made is probably the,</v>

914
00:55:26.811 --> 00:55:31.310
the one help, helpful way to think about it. You know, anxiety in some ways,

915
00:55:31.311 --> 00:55:35.100
just the psychologist station. If I can use that word of fear, it's,

916
00:55:35.101 --> 00:55:38.390
it's this idea that it's a psychological state that doesn't have much to do

917
00:55:38.540 --> 00:55:41.390
necessarily with the material reality. On the other hand,

918
00:55:41.391 --> 00:55:45.560
it is terrifying in some ways to get up in front of people and play the piano.

919
00:55:46.460 --> 00:55:46.490
It's,

920
00:55:46.490 --> 00:55:50.480
it is really frightening to wake up in the middle of the night and death is

921
00:55:51.200 --> 00:55:53.480
frightening. So I wouldn't go too far with it,

922
00:55:53.481 --> 00:55:56.960
but I think it's somewhere in that neighborhood of whether or not the material

923
00:55:56.961 --> 00:56:00.950
conditions at the moment are really the inspiration for the fear.

924
00:56:01.430 --> 00:56:04.310
<v Anna Goldsworthy>Yeah. I mean, even with Jeff Koons having no anxiety,</v>

925
00:56:04.311 --> 00:56:07.400
does that mean he just has my fear. Maybe he has a lot of valley of,

926
00:56:07.401 --> 00:56:11.060
I don't know, he just does whatever he wants because he doesn't have that,

927
00:56:11.480 --> 00:56:13.820
that questioning perhaps. And I think, you know,

928
00:56:13.821 --> 00:56:16.610
through art education and writing and music,

929
00:56:16.970 --> 00:56:21.590
you're always questioning everything and that's what can breathe the anxiety

930
00:56:21.591 --> 00:56:24.460
because once you start questioning or

931
00:56:26.530 --> 00:56:30.100
contradicting ideas and that's what you do in these arts, that's,

932
00:56:30.130 --> 00:56:33.250
that's a part of the creativity process. So with that,

933
00:56:33.400 --> 00:56:38.140
that would create anxiety, I guess, I quite like your distinction.

934
00:56:38.620 --> 00:56:41.710
I quite like your characterization of anxiety as being something that demands to

935
00:56:41.711 --> 00:56:45.640
be believed and was that what it was and distillate at the same time.

936
00:56:45.940 --> 00:56:47.380
And I think that speaks to a distinction,

937
00:56:47.381 --> 00:56:50.980
but probably very simplistically between our thinking and our feeling selves.

938
00:56:51.310 --> 00:56:53.860
And I think that's a very useful sort of locus for welfare,

939
00:56:53.890 --> 00:56:56.980
for irony amongst other sort of modes of artistic expression. That's, that's,

940
00:56:57.070 --> 00:56:58.840
that's the place where that that can exist.

941
00:57:00.040 --> 00:57:04.060
<v Julian Pierce>So we've just got one more question. I'll have to be quite quick. I'm afraid.</v>

942
00:57:06.090 --> 00:57:10.770
<v 3>I believe Peter differentiated between religious inspiration and</v>

943
00:57:10.950 --> 00:57:15.210
anxiety is inspiration source yesterday. Gary,

944
00:57:15.211 --> 00:57:19.080
you were talking about this history of crazy and how I'd gone from a religious

945
00:57:20.130 --> 00:57:23.130
diagnosis. If you like to this medical disease.

946
00:57:23.550 --> 00:57:28.080
I was just wondering whether you think that perhaps it's just a change of label,

947
00:57:28.230 --> 00:57:32.910
their religious inspiration is the same thing. It's anxiety.

948
00:57:33.991 --> 00:57:35.340
<v Gary Greenberg>Well, I think when you change the label,</v>

949
00:57:35.341 --> 00:57:39.180
you change the nature of the experience. So they're not exactly the same thing.

950
00:57:39.181 --> 00:57:41.280
I mean, in broad terms probably,

951
00:57:41.281 --> 00:57:45.930
but what we're really talking about is impossible to get

952
00:57:45.931 --> 00:57:48.870
at the raw phenomenon without language.

953
00:57:49.270 --> 00:57:53.250
At least that's what I believe and the language does its best to approximate it,

954
00:57:53.280 --> 00:57:58.140
but we're stuck with the concepts that we that we inherit,

955
00:57:58.410 --> 00:57:59.220
you know, that's why,

956
00:57:59.220 --> 00:58:02.070
that's why Peter's common was so interesting about the Renaissance. I mean,

957
00:58:02.190 --> 00:58:04.350
it's, you know, once you see it as, oh yeah.

958
00:58:04.710 --> 00:58:09.090
The whole idea of what art is supposed to do may have

959
00:58:09.091 --> 00:58:12.330
changed. I mean, I guess that seems totally banal at this point.

960
00:58:12.331 --> 00:58:15.120
I don't know why I never thought that before, but it it's,

961
00:58:15.121 --> 00:58:19.170
it's such a profound change that it no longer makes much sense to talk about

962
00:58:20.730 --> 00:58:24.240
whether or not they're the same thing because they can't be in some essential

963
00:58:24.241 --> 00:58:25.074
way.

964
00:58:26.190 --> 00:58:31.020
<v Julian Pierce>Okay. thanks for your questions and my phone, we do have to wrap up now,</v>

965
00:58:31.050 --> 00:58:32.400
but before we finish,

966
00:58:32.430 --> 00:58:36.180
I wanted to remind you that there's a festival bookshop and Kapha and the

967
00:58:36.900 --> 00:58:38.670
Freeman's at Freemasons hold for upstairs.

968
00:58:38.671 --> 00:58:41.820
And I'm sure I think your book is up there, Anna. So if you'd like.

969
00:58:41.820 --> 00:58:45.780
<v 6>To go home with Peter, any books out there,</v>

970
00:58:47.340 --> 00:58:47.790
if you'd like.

971
00:58:47.790 --> 00:58:52.650
<v Julian Pierce>To go home with them and his anxiety tonight and and please stay up to</v>

972
00:58:52.651 --> 00:58:56.640
date on the Festival of Ideas website,

973
00:58:56.641 --> 00:58:59.100
sign up to the newsletter, but thank you to our speakers

974
00:59:06.750 --> 00:59:07.583
[inaudible].

975
00:59:09.540 --> 00:59:14.250
<v Intro>This session of the 2013 Adelaide Festival of Ideas was recorded by</v>

976
00:59:14.251 --> 00:59:17.550
Radio Adelaide through the support of the vast myth library,

977
00:59:17.670 --> 00:59:18.870
University of Adelaide,

978
00:59:18.990 --> 00:59:23.160
the University of south Australia library and Flinders University library.