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Welcome everybody. Nice to see a bit crowded here. Again.
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First I'd like to acknowledge that we're meeting on Ghana land and we respect
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the garner. People's ongoing connection with this land.
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We're here today to consider the challenge of building democracies in the 21st
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century. And to help us do this,
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we have four eminent authorities on different approaches to pursuing and
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ensuring democratic principles in various places in the world.
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We have Hillary Charlesworth, Joseph Cheng, Robin Jeffery,
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and Tim Lindsey. You have details about our speakers in your program booklets,
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but I remind you again,
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shortly of their particular areas of expertise as I introduced them one by one
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I'm Tanya Smith,
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I'm head of the cabinet office here in the South Australian government.
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And I'm very pleased to be facilitating today's session.
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What do we know about building democracies in the 21st century that we didn't
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know in the 1990s or the 1980s, the late 20th century?
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So the much vaunted triumph of capitalism and liberal democracies over the
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Soviet union in our own region,
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we saw the passing of concepts such as guided democracy and a growing
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preoccupation with the notion of failed states.
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People power get the collapse of autocratic regimes.
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And yet for reasons that Western governments are still trying to fathom the
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liberal democratic model was not necessarily the preferred alternative to those
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looking for liberation.
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We saw new approaches to power sharing emerge to resolve communal tensions,
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which offer new slant on the notion of representative democracy.
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And we saw arguably a further decline in the relative influence of legislatures
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compared with the powers of the executive branches of governments in the west
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related to that was the emergence of what some people call an elite popular
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divide and an interest in developments such as the internet to cut through or
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work around an alienating political system in order to achieve change.
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Have we got better now at knowing a good well-functioning democracy?
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When we see it,
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are we any better at understanding the ingredients of success?
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The United States failed attempt to trigger a blossoming of democracy in the
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middle east suggests not. And yet elsewhere,
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there is perhaps more hope how first speaker today is professor Hillary
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Charlesworth, who is among other things,
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the director of the center for international governance and justice at the
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Australian National University.
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She's done a lot of work in the era of building democracy in the wake of
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conflict and has particular expertise in the use of human rights law to underpin
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democratic institutions.
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Professor Charlesworth will speak for around 10 minutes.
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I will then introduce our other distinguished panelists in turn,
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who will also speak for around 10 minutes.
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We should then have a good half an hour or so at the end for questions
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afterwards, but for now,
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will you please join me in welcoming Hillary Charlesworth to the podium?
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[Inaudible].
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Thanks, Tanya.
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I wanted to approach this topic from the perspective of an international lawyer,
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rather than as a country specialist,
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which you'll hear from the other panel members.
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I'm particularly interested in the way that there's been a recent renewal of
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interest in so-called democracy building as an international project,
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as something that the international community should be interested in.
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So it's worth recalling it's.
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It's something that we do think of as a feature of this new century,
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but it's worth recalling that there's actually a project with quite a long
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history. So for example, in 1919, the league of nations,
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when it was first established set up a mandate system,
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and the mandate system was created for territories that
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were belonged to the vanquished paths after the first world war.
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And they were the vanquish powers Germany and so on were forced to
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hand over their colonial territories to this new international organization and
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article 22 of the league of covenants league of having
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the league of nations, covenant,
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sorry referred to the mandate system as for,
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and this is a quote from article 22, those people in territories,
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not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern
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world, that was the phrase used in 1919.
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And for those that the welfare of those people not yet able to stand
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on their own two feet was considered under the league of nations, covenant,
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a sacred trust of civilization. So those two ideas,
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the idea that there's people not yet able to stand on their own two feet,
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and there's a sacred trust of civilization in the international community.
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I want to argue still the features of democracy building
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today. The mandate system, as many of you will know,
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was then translated once the United nations was founded in 1945 into
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the so-called trust territory system, but it's still used those,
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those two notions as to the sort of countries that should be protected.
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Of course then in the early post post second world war years the,
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some of the democracy building was conducted outside international
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organizations.
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So the United States was heavily involved in building democracy in
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post-war Japan and Germany.
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And it wasn't really till the end of the cold war till the end of the 1980s that
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we see international organizations really playing a major role in democracy
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building 1989 is usually seen as the first flowering of the
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UN's involvement. And that was in Namibia in 1989 when that country,
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which of course had been a former German colonial power,
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then held by South Africa finally became independent. And during the 1990s,
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we've got the UN involved in places like Cambodia and Kosovo. Meanwhile, well,
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the UN sort of getting interested in democracy building,
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we can see some changes politically in particularly
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in the superpowers interests.
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So during the Clinton years some of the attempts by the Clinton
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administration to build democracy abroad were really very much derided by
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conservative forces and Condoleeza rice actually wrote a very well known
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article during the 1990s, very,
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very critical of the Clinton administration for being interested in building
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democracy. In other countries, she derided that as what was called social work.
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Whereas really the argument was that was social work,
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but what the United States should be interested in was much more sort of
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military power. But of course,
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that changed very dramatically after September 11.
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And what we see then was the Bush administration fairly quickly after September
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11,
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moving to endorse the idea that one of the tasks of the superstar power was
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to build democracy. And this,
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the idea was that this was one answer to the threat of terrorism,
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was to build democracy in countries that didn't have it,
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and that this would alleviate if not totally eradicate the,
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the threat of terrorism.
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So the UN then at the same time has been going along its path.
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And I just want to briefly contrast two different ideas of democracy that
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have come onto the international stage one in the context of East Timor.
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And one in the context of Iraq obviously conducted by different organizations in
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his team,
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or the idea of democracy that was developed was developed very much by the
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United nations,
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working through the UN transitional transitional administration is,
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or right the rock, of course, it's the United States.
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So just to look very briefly at what happened and in East Timor,
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that's been loudly praised in the literature and
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by the UN and by a number of countries as a wonderful model of democracy
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building. So the UN really in a lot of its publication says, well,
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we really did something terrific. In East Timor,
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we took a very war torn society and we developed democracy there,
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and it's now an independent country. The story, the real story,
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I think is a lot more complicated than that. And when we go back and look,
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what did the, and actually do from its presence in 99 till independence in
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2002 how did it, how did conceive democracy there?
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It's very striking that what the UN thought it was doing was really to bring
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Western political institutions and impose them in East Timor.
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So there was very little attention given to local forms of governance
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and how these might interact with Western forms of governance.
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So the idea of Western forms of governance was, well,
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if we can see three arms of government or judiciary and executive and the
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legislature, and if we can see free elections,
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then we're pretty that we've got a democracy,
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but as many people have pointed out and there's actually a lot of really
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interesting anthropological work on East Timor,
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really what the UN imposed in East Timor could be better described as,
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as a feudal democracy. So it really didn't,
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it came from above,
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it was imposed and it didn't mesh at all with existing structures there.
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So there was very little understanding of how traditional kinship
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religious and ceremonial power worked with an East Timor.
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And for example,
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one interesting thing that the UN tried to do in his team, always,
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they felt well, if we had, we just can't have one party elections,
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we need one party and we need an opposition without a lot of understanding that
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the idea of a peaceful political opposition is Timor with something that had
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almost no, no tradition at all. And didn't mesh at all with what was going on.
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The other striking thing about what the, you entered in his team,
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all was great paucity of contact with the local
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people.
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They seem to have identified very early on local elites that they were willing
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to work with. This of course, included people like good smell.
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And there was very little connection at the local level.
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They have a sort of really striking thing about what democracy in his team or
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with the way that the UN itself was managed in an extraordinarily
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hierarchical fashion.
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So the secretary general special representative in East Timor was the latest
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Sergio Vieira de Mello. The leading UN official,
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who of course was tragically killed in Iraq in 2003.
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But the way that the UN mission worked in East Timor was very much with the word
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of the Vieira de Mello just passed down.
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It was a very hierarchical system of governance.
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So it seemed very curious that you had the UN present in East Timor modeling and
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extraordinarily hierarchical system of governance,
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but telling these Timorese do, as we say, not,
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not as we do you must have a different form of democracy.
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So the form of governance introduced by anti it was completely at odds with the
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form of governance.
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It itself was modeling just in very briefly to touch on the idea of democracy
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that is animated.
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Primarily the United States as democracy builder in Iraq.
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I was very struck early on in,
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after the invasion of Iraq when there was looting when there was tremendous
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chaos I heard Donald Rumsfeld on the radio
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saying when somebody said, well, you're a bit alarmed by what's happening.
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You've gone to build democracy in Iraq, and yet we have complete chaos,
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the looting of the Iraq museum, and so on he just said, oh,
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no we, Americans are very deeply familiar with this.
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This just reminds me of the early days of our founding fathers back in the
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18th century. Yes, there was a lot of fighting before we got our own democracy.
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And as George packer has noted, he said,
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Rumsfeld looked upon anarchy in Iraq and saw the early stages of democracy was a
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complete misreading of what was going on, but what's very striking. Now,
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Donald Rumsfeld also, I should add,
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came up with a wonderful idea of the tsunami theory of democracy. He said,
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if we create a democracy in Iraq,
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this will inevitably spread just like a tsunami out in the middle east and
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bring democracy generally,
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when we look at what's actually going on today that seems such an extraordinary
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misreading of the situation, but really what, what does seems to be, what's the,
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what's the idea of democracy in Iraq, from what we can tell,
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and this there's very little sort of clear statements about this,
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the version of democracy that the United States has thought it was introducing
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in Iraq made elections the separation of powers and
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free market that defining elements of democracy there.
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And again,
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it was very striking that this version of democracy was imposed by the coalition
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provisional authority in a completely undemocratic way.
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So we have that dissonance between the version of democracy in the way that it's
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it's introduced.
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I just want to end then with I think four general observations,
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one can make from an international perspective about the whole democracy
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building project.
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First of all what's very clear in a whole range of situations,
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including this Australia's own attempt to build democracy in the Solomon
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Islands. In this typically there's a soaring rate of unemployment of local
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populations in the democracy building era.
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That's a very striking thing that happens when the international community gets
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involved in building democracy. Secondly,
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I think we can see that democracy building tends to advantage existing elites
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and can reinforce, for example, the marginalization of women in public life.
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That's a really striking feature of all the experiments.
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The modern experiments of democracy building is the marginalization of women.
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Third democracy building is typically viewed as a project of nurturing,
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internationally oriented elites who can administer locally,
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but we're also very sympathetic to integrating the country into the global
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economics groups, particularly the Britain institutions. And finally,
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I think linkage of democracy,
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building to the war against terrorism has very much limited the horizons of
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democracy builders. And now there is much,
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much more emphasis given to increasing military and police forces then to
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ensuring public participation in government.
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So I think we've got to have a much broader debate on what democracy
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means.
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I think intimate international democracy building has been really focusing very
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much on events,
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such as elections and not so much focusing on
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relationships and processes.
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So the overall effect of our modern democracy building has to consolidate
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existing social orders and really to reduce the prospect of political and social
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change through redistribution of sources.
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[Inaudible].
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Thank you very much,
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professor Charlesworth I'd like now to introduce Joseph Cheng,
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who is professor of political science and coordinator of the contemporary China
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research project from the city university of Hong Kong.
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Joseph Cheng is editor of the journal of comparative Asian development,
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and he's published widely on political development in China and Hong Kong,
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Chinese foreign policy and local government in Southern China.
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Professor chin has been heavily involved in the pro democracy movement in Hong
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Kong. And in 2006,
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he was one of the inaugural recipients of the distinguished alumni awards from
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Flinders university here in Adelaide.
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So I'd like to welcome him back to Adelaide and invite him to come to the
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podium, offering his perspectives on the struggle for democracy in China.
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Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, once again,
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I would like to register my gratitude for my education at
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fenders and for a number of years of happy
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postgraduate student knives in Adelaide.
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I would like to follow the first speaker's footsteps who talk about the
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essence of democracy if I may.
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So label it after the so-called footway
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fourth wave of democratization,
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most countries in today's world do have established
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some kind of democratic systems in Asia,
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which I know a little bit better,
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even Mongolia has democratic systems dove.
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Hong Kong has yet to establish one.
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The important of course, importance of course,
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is civil society,
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civil society development.
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And this means that in this century, everybody has to work very hard.
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Even in countries with strong democratic traditions.
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You look at Japan from 1955 to 1993,
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that the liberal democratic party was in power.
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People were happy with this triumph by rate of
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bureaucracy, political party of DP, plus the business community,
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delivering an economic miracle to the people.
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People didn't didn't Challenge the government except the,
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also this party and the Japan come to this party and they will more or less
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engaged in opposition without any constructive
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dialogue with the establishment.
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India of course enjoyed democracy,
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right from the days of independence.
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But before 1977,
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when the change of government took place again,
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the ruling Congress party had a, from grabs a power,
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a high proportion of the people remained illiteration.
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They only recognize the cow as a symbol of the boat.
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They were under tremendous influence of Nan owners.
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That wasn't exactly democracy. Again,
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you turn to Singapore,
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you certainly has a democratic system in this constitution,
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but debate is discouraged.
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Opposition is not tolerated government ministers,
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confecting electoral districts,
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which voted for opposition candidates for denial
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of
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renovation funds for the public housing assets that is not democracy.
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The Bush administration now has a lot of grass over pushing for democracy in
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Palestine, facilitating hammers to come to power. And so on.
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I guess we need to have a simple definition
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of democracy, according to one's ideas,
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according to one's own thinking,
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certainly I can offer some suggestions.
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We must expect that the rules are fair and the rules are
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binding on all parties concerned.
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They are accepted by all as legitimate.
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Then of course,
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the institutions must be strong and stronger than DDAs.
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The institutions should deliver seductive resolves so that people will not
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become cynical. Finally,
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there must be sufficient consensus within the community about the
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general objectives of the community in Taiwan.
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For example, you certainly have that Seabreeze problem when the controversy of
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independence and reunification has made politics
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so divisive,
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so that deliberations are no longer rational, meaningful.
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The second point that I would like to make is that demo proceed demands
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participation, and is based on participation.
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And therefore he requires every one of us to think about our own
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responsibilities and duties instead of just blaming the politicians.
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And I think the most important thing is,
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do we get a sense of satisfaction out of political participation?
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I do believe that this is very important because as a political activist in Hong
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Kong,
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who worked pretty hard to have more than three decades without exceeding much
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without seeing anything, you, by me be a little bit tougher.
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You need a sense of participation.
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Democracy has this foundation in a certain
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idealism, a certain enthusiasm.
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So all of us need to retain the little bit of
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enthusiasm and
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idealism in order to make democracy work.
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I, I have been observing say,
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Hong Kong people, Singapore people,
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and even the east Asians in Australia,
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parents work very hard to give their children a
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good education.
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They make tremendous sacrifices to let the children having to have
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a good education, but they are seldom active in parents,
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teachers associations. And this is quite strange. I mean,
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they are concerned parents, And yet they don't
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Seem to accept them ocracy as a way of life.
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And they certainly do not do not derive
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satisfaction out of democratic participation.
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I am slightly optimistic in the future.
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Yeah, the past decade we see hippies in the United States,
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former hippies of my generation of my age, returning to the churches.
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Of course they demand study more sophisticated sermons from the ministers.
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And I noticed that in places like Taiwan,
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well at UK to executives and so on,
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they also go to temples Buddhist temples that was temples in the
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weekends, not to ask about the fortunes or, or make offerings,
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but just to seek some quietness,
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some in the peace given the fact that family
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ties are weakening,
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careers are less secure.
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I think we all you're lonely and we all feel vulnerable
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given the deterioration in environment. I mean,
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defined in so many ways,
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a sense of companionship in fighting for democracy.
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It's probably one of the past rewards for
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participation.
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The third point I would like to take up is the means of communication
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because of internet,
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because of short messaging, et cetera,
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et cetera,
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into in April 2 0 5, there were
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Quite a widespread
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Anti-Japanese protests in China. You many Chinese cities. Yes.
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There were two important features to notice.
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One is the mobilization of people without government sanctions,
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without use of any official medium.
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And the second feature was that a lot of young people
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Top pop people, genuinely
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Expected that the older gen generation has stronger feelings
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against Japanese,
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but obviously they were not in the generation of using mobile phones and,
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and various more than means of communication. So they will not mobilize.
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They, they, they, they, they were not in touch, so to speak.
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Whereas a lot of very young people who who know very,
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very little about Japan, top part,
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I'm sure as university teachers we find difficulties
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sometimes in communicating with our students who are supposed to be well
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educated. So communication is going to be a very,
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very serious challenge.
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Most of us may well engage in some kind of cost benefit
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analysis in calculating political participation
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Hong Kong people, for example,
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feel that the status quo isn't too bad while they certainly liked
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to, to have the Moxie they're unwilling to sacrifice for it.
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People in the United States have become fairies cynical so much so
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that even in presidential elections,
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the voter turnout rate is sometimes a little bit below 50%
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in city mayor elections.
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The voter turnout rate may well be 20% or less,
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which means if you can mobilize eight, 9% of the elect rate,
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you can be elected as mayor.
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So that was fine.
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I kept emphasizing the sense of satisfaction
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from participation.
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I do believe that democracy is a universal value.
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I do believe it is punk of good life.
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It is in our pursuit for the ideal life for human
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dignity,
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for someone who do not enjoy democracy in a place
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where I live.
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I do want to tell you that Australians consider themselves very lucky.
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You may not be very happy your politicians,
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but you certainly have very strong political institutions.
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You have a strong foundation,
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and I believe that you are in a position to help at these in
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the Asia Pacific region. Thank you very much.
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[Inaudible].
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Thank you. We're now moving to South Asia.
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We have with us professor Jeffrey,
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who is currently director of the research school of Pacific and Asian studies at
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Australian national university. He was educated at the university of Victoria,
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British Columbia, Canada,
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and work there as a journalist before teaching school in Chandigarh in north
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India in the late sixties,
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he ultimately then completed a doctorate in Indian history at
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Sussex.
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He's written both about Punjab in the north of India and Kerala in the south,
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and has most recently worked on the Indian media.
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His current project is an account of India in the second half of the 20th
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century. Please welcome professor Robin Jeffrey.
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[Inaudible].
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Thank you. Yeah.
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If you were on the web this morning and went into the Hindu
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newspaper, the great daily of mudras Chennai as the city is now known,
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you'd have found in the top stories, a headline. This is this morning. Sindu,
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00:28:19.581 --> 00:28:22.680
it's wonderful that you can get the Hindu here at 4:30 AM,
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00:28:23.180 --> 00:28:26.180
mudras time in Adelaide. It's about eight in the morning.
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00:28:26.181 --> 00:28:30.890
So it's a wonderful thing. The web the headline is violence,
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00:28:31.460 --> 00:28:33.620
Myers, MTC cooperative elections.
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And the story is that the housing co-op society of Chennai
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00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:42.650
the that is the housing co-op society of the metropolitan transport corporation,
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00:28:42.651 --> 00:28:45.200
the local bus line, local public transport network,
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00:28:45.230 --> 00:28:46.790
which runs the housing co-op society.
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Their attempt to hold the elections for their board of governors ended in big
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00:28:51.681 --> 00:28:53.420
dispute between two factions.
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The faction led by the C I T U the Confederation of Indian trade unions,
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00:28:57.831 --> 00:29:00.800
the communist organization of trade unions,
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00:29:01.160 --> 00:29:05.300
and the Federation of trade unions led by the ruling party in the state of
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00:29:05.570 --> 00:29:09.530
tumble, not the DMK party. They ended up having a punch up over the elections.
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00:29:09.800 --> 00:29:11.210
The police had to be called out.
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00:29:11.360 --> 00:29:15.380
Traffic was stopped in the equivalent of north terrorists for half an hour on
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Saturday afternoon.
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And it would cause even more chaos in Chennai yesterday afternoon,
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that it would do in Adelaide. On a Saturday afternoon,
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traffic was held up while the police staged the mild Latty charge the report,
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doesn't say it was a mild Blatty charge. It may have been a full fledged,
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00:29:31.130 --> 00:29:33.860
full blooded written two-toned latee latee charge,
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where they go in with their batons and clear people off the streets.
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00:29:37.310 --> 00:29:40.310
The point of all that is, I guess, for our purposes,
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00:29:40.610 --> 00:29:45.540
is that elections and electing is alive and very well
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in India. Indeed, the electoral process is flourishing. The question I suppose,
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00:29:50.371 --> 00:29:52.530
that we're really supposed to be answering here is,
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is democracy flourishing in India?
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00:29:56.250 --> 00:30:00.090
I've got various reasons for saying that electing is flourishing.
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00:30:00.570 --> 00:30:03.780
There are a number of aspects of the Indian electoral system,
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which it seems to me are, are very, very healthy. Indeed.
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Those fall under headings like the laws under which it works,
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00:30:10.230 --> 00:30:15.060
the mechanics of actually carrying out elections whenever they're required.
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And the participation rates Joseph was talking about participation participation
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in Indian elections is quite healthy.
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00:30:22.380 --> 00:30:27.210
If I could take each of those briefly for a moment the laws under which
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00:30:27.211 --> 00:30:31.140
Indian elections are carried out are very impressive. Indeed.
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It's it said not really with tongue in cheek, by Indians,
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00:30:34.111 --> 00:30:36.060
that the next time the Americans hold in the election,
472
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they really should get the Indian chief electoral commissioner and to do it
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00:30:39.240 --> 00:30:42.990
because he's been doing it for 60 years and has never had a hanging shard and
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his whole
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00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:49.590
in the whole history of the office the the chief election
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00:30:49.591 --> 00:30:51.750
commissioner, and then the is a bit of a figure.
477
00:30:51.960 --> 00:30:54.600
There are state election commissions because we have to remember,
478
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India is a Federation of 28 states with an overarching central
479
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government.
480
00:31:00.030 --> 00:31:04.530
The chief election commissioner is something of a public figure during his and
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00:31:04.531 --> 00:31:09.360
it's used. It's been a man up until now, his tenure of office. He is,
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00:31:09.420 --> 00:31:14.310
has considerable powers once an election is called to look
483
00:31:14.311 --> 00:31:17.850
after public administration in the areas in which elections are being held.
484
00:31:18.780 --> 00:31:21.600
He's also armed with really quite vigorously, yeah.
485
00:31:22.020 --> 00:31:26.700
Was on the disclosure of funds the disclosure of the interests of
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00:31:26.701 --> 00:31:28.050
political participants.
487
00:31:28.170 --> 00:31:31.770
So the election laws and the manner in which Indian elections are carried out
488
00:31:31.771 --> 00:31:35.400
under the law is really very impressive. It seems to me, secondly,
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00:31:35.401 --> 00:31:39.510
the mechanics of elections India since 1999 has used things called
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00:31:39.540 --> 00:31:42.690
EVMS electronic voting machines.
491
00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:47.260
And there were more than a million of these little computerized boxes that go
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00:31:47.550 --> 00:31:51.150
around the country. Whenever there's an election being used in polling booths.
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00:31:51.360 --> 00:31:54.750
So every polling booth we'll have one or two of these. And as I say,
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there's more than a million of them. They're self-contained little computers,
495
00:31:57.721 --> 00:32:02.280
a little bit like I gather the old 1980s Commodore just a little box with
496
00:32:02.281 --> 00:32:03.990
some circuitry inside it,
497
00:32:04.260 --> 00:32:07.320
but they've now been used in dozens of Indian elections.
498
00:32:07.650 --> 00:32:09.720
The one that impresses me most,
499
00:32:09.721 --> 00:32:13.530
I think is the one that's just been held in the big Indian state of Uttar
500
00:32:13.531 --> 00:32:14.364
Pradesh.
501
00:32:14.430 --> 00:32:19.410
That's the great state in north India that lives like a loaf of sandwich
502
00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:24.270
bread across the bottom of the Himalayas from Delhi over to Eastern India
503
00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:26.580
contains about 180 million people.
504
00:32:26.790 --> 00:32:31.170
The elections for that state legislature that were held there in may were
505
00:32:31.171 --> 00:32:32.970
carried out over five weeks.
506
00:32:33.150 --> 00:32:37.680
There were six separate stages of voting and these electronic voting machines
507
00:32:37.740 --> 00:32:42.410
and the election commissioner and paramilitary police went round ups to ensure
508
00:32:42.590 --> 00:32:47.420
fair and effective voting. And on the whole, all the reports are that it was,
509
00:32:47.660 --> 00:32:52.300
there were not a lot of incidents of bias and most impressive of all.
510
00:32:52.450 --> 00:32:57.220
When it came time to count the ballots on the 8th of May, they had,
511
00:32:57.250 --> 00:33:00.310
there would have been more than 60 million votes recorded.
512
00:33:00.730 --> 00:33:04.510
Ups has a population of more than 180 million people bigger than Japan,
513
00:33:04.780 --> 00:33:08.980
more than 60 million votes were actually recorded a little over 50% of the
514
00:33:08.981 --> 00:33:11.380
electorate voted when they came to count the votes,
515
00:33:11.381 --> 00:33:15.250
they had the result within a vote five hours because they simply began to plug
516
00:33:15.251 --> 00:33:19.450
in these little electronic voting machines. They tabulated electronically,
517
00:33:19.750 --> 00:33:22.930
and the results were done. It's an amazing achievement.
518
00:33:22.931 --> 00:33:24.820
And they've been doing this now for eight or nine years.
519
00:33:24.850 --> 00:33:28.210
It's a tried and true process for conducting elections.
520
00:33:28.420 --> 00:33:31.630
I have a friend in Canada, who's an election officer in British Columbia.
521
00:33:32.320 --> 00:33:35.380
He says the Canadians still make little scratches on paper and it takes them
522
00:33:35.381 --> 00:33:35.891
days,
523
00:33:35.891 --> 00:33:39.610
even with the first past the post system to come up with winners in some areas.
524
00:33:39.610 --> 00:33:41.890
And we all know what the Australian senators like,
525
00:33:42.130 --> 00:33:46.600
or those of us who have ever voted in it or voted erroneously or voted invalidly
526
00:33:46.601 --> 00:33:51.580
as some of us have. So the mechanics of Indian elections,
527
00:33:51.581 --> 00:33:54.580
I think are very impressive. The third element is participation.
528
00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:59.530
The Indian state takes upon itself. The duty of enrolling its citizens.
529
00:33:59.531 --> 00:34:02.740
Unlike I believe the United most states in the United States of America,
530
00:34:02.741 --> 00:34:07.720
where the citizen has to get the citizens self to an office at a particular time
531
00:34:07.721 --> 00:34:10.060
to get themselves on the role.
532
00:34:10.240 --> 00:34:13.900
The Indian state goes out looking for its citizens just as the Australian states
533
00:34:13.930 --> 00:34:17.110
does and says, come on, you're a citizen. You're on the rolls,
534
00:34:17.320 --> 00:34:18.880
no compulsory voting, but nevertheless,
535
00:34:19.610 --> 00:34:23.590
the state makes the effort to enroll people. Voter turnout, as I've said,
536
00:34:23.620 --> 00:34:25.000
is notably high.
537
00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:29.710
The normally between 50 and 60% of the enrolled voters vote,
538
00:34:29.740 --> 00:34:31.870
there's no compulsory voting, of course. And as I say,
539
00:34:31.871 --> 00:34:36.400
it's first past the post voting, but turnout is, is really quite strong.
540
00:34:36.430 --> 00:34:37.450
Given those conditions,
541
00:34:37.451 --> 00:34:41.860
given the conditions that in Uttar Pradesh in the may state
542
00:34:41.861 --> 00:34:46.270
elections, they're close to half the electorate was illiterate. Nevertheless,
543
00:34:46.390 --> 00:34:51.310
the electorate vote that election in a UOP was impressive for
544
00:34:51.311 --> 00:34:53.530
another reason, which I'll return to a little bit later,
545
00:34:53.710 --> 00:34:58.030
but what it did was returned a political party with an absolute majority in its
546
00:34:58.031 --> 00:35:00.910
own, right, for the first time in more than 20 years,
547
00:35:01.090 --> 00:35:05.320
but much more important that party is led by a woman and it's led by a woman.
548
00:35:05.500 --> 00:35:07.720
Who's an untouchable, she's a woman in her early fifties.
549
00:35:08.140 --> 00:35:11.320
She had three short spells is chief minister of Luther Pradesh.
550
00:35:11.470 --> 00:35:13.810
Previously this time she's one in her own, right?
551
00:35:13.811 --> 00:35:17.380
She's built a political party from an untouchable base,
552
00:35:17.530 --> 00:35:21.880
but now taking in groups from other social classes and CAS,
553
00:35:22.270 --> 00:35:23.530
they've won a majority.
554
00:35:23.860 --> 00:35:27.310
Now she's going to have to deliver on that majority because she's awakened huge
555
00:35:27.311 --> 00:35:30.220
expectations, but it is a mark of the changing system.
556
00:35:30.221 --> 00:35:33.310
The idea that this state that gave in the Joel Harlow,
557
00:35:33.311 --> 00:35:38.250
Nehru and ended a Gandy could within three generations throw up
558
00:35:38.370 --> 00:35:43.230
a woman and an untouchable as its chief minister is a very remarkable example.
559
00:35:43.231 --> 00:35:45.570
It seems to me of social change.
560
00:35:45.810 --> 00:35:49.200
I'd give one other example of the enthusiasm Joseph talked about,
561
00:35:49.410 --> 00:35:52.950
whether you get a sense of satisfaction from the election, the election process.
562
00:35:53.880 --> 00:35:55.850
Two years ago, I went to a conference in,
563
00:35:55.851 --> 00:36:00.540
in China and there were some Chinese media people and some Indian media
564
00:36:00.541 --> 00:36:02.640
people comparing notes on how they did it.
565
00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:06.720
And one of the Indians worked for Murdoch star news in India. Indeed.
566
00:36:06.721 --> 00:36:09.330
He was the managing director of the big news channel.
567
00:36:09.540 --> 00:36:13.800
He brought some DVDs of some events they'd done in westbound gall during the
568
00:36:13.801 --> 00:36:15.270
local government elections.
569
00:36:15.450 --> 00:36:19.470
And during those local government elections star news had hired a football field
570
00:36:19.620 --> 00:36:22.220
and said, well, we've got all the politicians for the,
571
00:36:22.221 --> 00:36:25.080
these particular constituencies coming to speak. You,
572
00:36:25.081 --> 00:36:28.620
the public are welcome to come along too. And they filled the football field,
573
00:36:28.650 --> 00:36:33.180
20,000 people, roving Mike's candidates on a platform live television.
574
00:36:33.420 --> 00:36:36.990
And it was a little ripper from a TV ratings. Point of view. People loved it.
575
00:36:36.991 --> 00:36:41.790
This was live shouting, back and forth. Shaking of this very, very tense.
576
00:36:42.030 --> 00:36:44.550
The local police were very, very upset.
577
00:36:44.580 --> 00:36:47.370
The first couple of nights they had the TV.
578
00:36:47.371 --> 00:36:49.350
People had to Sue them and quiet them down and say, no,
579
00:36:49.351 --> 00:36:51.840
no nobody's been beaten up yet, but it's a,
580
00:36:51.841 --> 00:36:54.210
the police were saying we could have a riot here.
581
00:36:54.211 --> 00:36:58.250
This was going live on the satellite. Eventually they,
582
00:36:58.251 --> 00:36:59.520
they held these things. Anyway,
583
00:36:59.521 --> 00:37:04.140
the Indian newsman showed these to the Chinese colleagues in Shanghai and the
584
00:37:04.141 --> 00:37:06.750
Chinese colleagues just couldn't believe it. They just wanted to turn away.
585
00:37:06.751 --> 00:37:09.420
It was almost as if you were exhibiting pornography,
586
00:37:09.750 --> 00:37:14.370
because it seems so chaotic. There was a sense that if this is democracy, God,
587
00:37:14.371 --> 00:37:17.640
we don't need it. You know, this is, this is just, this is terrible.
588
00:37:17.641 --> 00:37:20.010
This is not taking anybody anywhere,
589
00:37:20.430 --> 00:37:25.300
but elections are everywhere in India. They're embedded. Now. It seems to me in,
590
00:37:25.301 --> 00:37:27.450
in the, in popular culture,
591
00:37:27.750 --> 00:37:32.190
the cricket associations of India have the most intensely fought elections.
592
00:37:32.191 --> 00:37:36.870
The elections for the cricket control board of west Bengal held about 18 months
593
00:37:36.871 --> 00:37:40.200
ago were fiercely contested with millions of dollars,
594
00:37:40.201 --> 00:37:42.540
changing hands on both sides with the state government,
595
00:37:42.541 --> 00:37:45.840
putting up its own candidate against a local capitalists,
596
00:37:45.841 --> 00:37:50.730
the local capitalist one much to the chagrin of the state government
597
00:37:50.731 --> 00:37:54.870
and the chief minister. So elections, I think are alive and well in India,
598
00:37:54.900 --> 00:37:58.590
whether in fact democracy is alive and well, of course is another matter.
599
00:37:58.620 --> 00:38:02.430
The conventional critique of Indian democracy is this,
600
00:38:02.431 --> 00:38:05.550
that elections. Aren't really democracy.
601
00:38:06.090 --> 00:38:10.340
That the process of elections is a rule that the poor are
602
00:38:10.341 --> 00:38:11.480
manipulated,
603
00:38:12.110 --> 00:38:15.980
that all the legal and economic rules are in the hands of the corrupt and the
604
00:38:15.981 --> 00:38:19.880
powerful and the strong men and the poor in any case,
605
00:38:19.940 --> 00:38:23.000
don't really understand what democracy is all about. It's just, it's just a,
606
00:38:23.001 --> 00:38:25.640
Tamasha just a big sort of show, a big game.
607
00:38:27.110 --> 00:38:29.030
And in this system, in any case,
608
00:38:29.031 --> 00:38:33.680
when it does produce an elected government cannot produce a government that can
609
00:38:33.681 --> 00:38:36.130
sustain economic and wipe.
610
00:38:36.140 --> 00:38:41.080
The tear has Gandy said from every eye that this system simply cannot deliver
611
00:38:41.081 --> 00:38:44.890
on the goods. And ultimately it will live in chaos. And in tears,
612
00:38:45.580 --> 00:38:48.220
this kind of system produces governments.
613
00:38:48.221 --> 00:38:52.180
That can't the way Chinese governments and the people's Republic can governments
614
00:38:52.181 --> 00:38:55.060
that can't make the hard economic decisions.
615
00:38:56.530 --> 00:38:59.380
Well I think there are two responses to that.
616
00:38:59.381 --> 00:39:03.120
Critique w the first of them is this, that India,
617
00:39:03.150 --> 00:39:04.470
as we now understand it,
618
00:39:04.471 --> 00:39:09.390
as a state cannot exist except as a Federation
619
00:39:09.570 --> 00:39:12.600
and a democracy, as soon as India ceases to be federal,
620
00:39:12.601 --> 00:39:14.370
as soon as somebody tries to run India,
621
00:39:14.850 --> 00:39:17.010
say by a military dictatorship from Delhi,
622
00:39:17.040 --> 00:39:20.910
which no one is suggesting any general in the Indian army would be so Daffy at
623
00:39:20.911 --> 00:39:22.350
the moment as to even contemplate.
624
00:39:22.500 --> 00:39:25.410
But if anyone did think of a dictatorship run from Delhi,
625
00:39:25.770 --> 00:39:29.100
the country will begin to fragment very seriously. Similarly,
626
00:39:29.220 --> 00:39:31.110
if India were not a democracy,
627
00:39:31.230 --> 00:39:36.120
it couldn't handle the diversity of 1822 official
628
00:39:36.121 --> 00:39:38.670
languages of 28 states.
629
00:39:38.700 --> 00:39:41.550
And many of us would argue there should be about 65 states,
630
00:39:41.551 --> 00:39:42.870
but 28 at the moment,
631
00:39:43.260 --> 00:39:46.800
it wouldn't be able to candle the diversity of religion,
632
00:39:47.010 --> 00:39:51.030
of cast of language that make the place what it is.
633
00:39:51.030 --> 00:39:55.350
And yet still give it a unity of which most Indians are very proud.
634
00:39:55.560 --> 00:39:56.610
So democracy,
635
00:39:56.940 --> 00:40:01.350
even this electoral democracy that I've been describing is an essential part for
636
00:40:01.770 --> 00:40:04.860
the sustenance of the modern Indian state.
637
00:40:05.220 --> 00:40:08.970
If we think that's a good thing, then democracy is an essential element of that.
638
00:40:08.971 --> 00:40:11.130
And the two have a symbiotic relationship.
639
00:40:11.910 --> 00:40:16.620
The second is that the system even though system that one can
640
00:40:16.621 --> 00:40:19.920
criticize so easily, the system throws up surprises.
641
00:40:20.160 --> 00:40:23.400
It threw up surprises in Kerala, down in the Southwest.
642
00:40:23.401 --> 00:40:26.370
That's the little cord on the lower left-hand corner of India,
643
00:40:26.371 --> 00:40:29.790
which used to have a, still does have a lot of communists. A lot of Christians,
644
00:40:29.791 --> 00:40:34.530
a lot of Muslims Kerala threw up surprises 50 years ago in 1957 and
645
00:40:34.531 --> 00:40:38.100
elected the first communist government in India. And since then,
646
00:40:38.101 --> 00:40:43.080
it's been roughly alternating every five years between a communist led coalition
647
00:40:43.230 --> 00:40:44.730
and a right-wing led coalition,
648
00:40:44.850 --> 00:40:48.420
communists are winning at the moment they they're in power.
649
00:40:49.140 --> 00:40:51.900
So the system throws up surprises. The second surprise of course,
650
00:40:51.901 --> 00:40:56.460
is the one that was thrown up in UOP only two months ago when my [inaudible] the
651
00:40:56.461 --> 00:41:00.870
name of the untouchable chief minister and her BSP party won an
652
00:41:00.871 --> 00:41:05.370
absolute majority in this large assembly of more than 400 seats,
653
00:41:05.550 --> 00:41:09.060
much to the surprise of the pollsters and all the political pundits.
654
00:41:10.530 --> 00:41:13.530
It's something that we need to watch that government of my, of RT,
655
00:41:13.531 --> 00:41:16.200
because the critique of Indian government of course,
656
00:41:16.201 --> 00:41:18.240
is that it can't make the hard decisions.
657
00:41:18.241 --> 00:41:22.290
It can't deliver the goods to the vast majority of people whose
658
00:41:22.291 --> 00:41:27.120
expectations are awakened increasingly now in the age of modern
659
00:41:27.121 --> 00:41:30.450
media, when most Indians probably go home now,
660
00:41:30.540 --> 00:41:34.010
even poor people to a place where there's likely to a television set,
661
00:41:34.190 --> 00:41:39.020
where TV brings into most living rooms every night and living rooms are the
662
00:41:39.050 --> 00:41:42.560
rooms where people live, not necessarily the lounge rooms that we may think of,
663
00:41:42.710 --> 00:41:46.940
but the rooms in which people live pictures of how the wealthy live and how the
664
00:41:46.941 --> 00:41:49.220
powerful carry off and those pictures,
665
00:41:49.221 --> 00:41:53.000
I think awakened aspirations that my Avanti in party are going to have to
666
00:41:53.001 --> 00:41:57.500
satisfy. And I would like to think that she realizes that too,
667
00:41:57.830 --> 00:42:01.760
and that she will have both the political power,
668
00:42:01.761 --> 00:42:05.270
the political muscle and the political vision to begin to fulfill them.
669
00:42:05.420 --> 00:42:06.141
In that case,
670
00:42:06.141 --> 00:42:11.030
we might be able to talk about Indian democracy as well as Indian
671
00:42:11.031 --> 00:42:11.864
electioneering.
672
00:42:23.320 --> 00:42:24.153
[Inaudible].
673
00:42:24.190 --> 00:42:27.160
Thank you, Robin Jeffrey. Now we staying in Asia,
674
00:42:27.161 --> 00:42:29.710
but we're changing our focus a little bit.
675
00:42:30.760 --> 00:42:34.240
Professor Tim Lindsay is going to speak to us next.
676
00:42:34.241 --> 00:42:37.900
He's the director of the Asian law center and the faculty of law at the
677
00:42:37.901 --> 00:42:39.010
university of Melbourne.
678
00:42:39.280 --> 00:42:42.700
He's also deputy director of the center for the study of contemporary Islam.
679
00:42:43.630 --> 00:42:47.710
Tim is an internationally recognized specialist in Indonesian law and society.
680
00:42:48.160 --> 00:42:52.720
He's also worked over as a consultant on law reform in Japan, Vietnam,
681
00:42:52.750 --> 00:42:54.610
Mongolia, and here in Australia,
682
00:42:55.330 --> 00:42:59.350
Tim is currently working on a new book on Islamic laws in Indonesia.
683
00:42:59.380 --> 00:43:01.210
Please welcome Tim to the podium. Thank you.
684
00:43:03.700 --> 00:43:05.500
I'm just being momentarily disorganized.
685
00:43:07.060 --> 00:43:11.320
I've been asked to look briefly at Indonesia as a case study of democratization.
686
00:43:11.830 --> 00:43:14.260
And this may surprise you Indonesia,
687
00:43:14.470 --> 00:43:17.920
as an example of democracy for most Australians,
688
00:43:17.921 --> 00:43:21.610
the old cliches that applied for so long under Suharto's still apply.
689
00:43:22.210 --> 00:43:25.690
Indonesia is still imagined as a military dictatorship where a brutal,
690
00:43:25.691 --> 00:43:30.100
aggressive military regime bent on territorial expansion and eager to
691
00:43:30.101 --> 00:43:32.710
eradicate minority ethnic groups,
692
00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:36.280
rules by force over a coward and compliance population.
693
00:43:36.940 --> 00:43:41.620
But I come bearing good news today. Indonesia is indeed a democracy.
694
00:43:41.800 --> 00:43:45.160
It has been so for about eight years, not only that,
695
00:43:45.430 --> 00:43:49.810
but it has what is probably the freest most open and most vibrant
696
00:43:49.930 --> 00:43:53.800
democratic electoral process in the whole of Southeast Asia. In fact,
697
00:43:53.801 --> 00:43:56.440
I don't think there's any question that that is now the case.
698
00:43:57.280 --> 00:44:02.050
So some of our assumptions about what happens in our giant Northern
699
00:44:02.051 --> 00:44:03.880
neighbor may need some revision.
700
00:44:04.900 --> 00:44:08.380
Certainly this view of Indonesia is not one you read frequently in the
701
00:44:08.381 --> 00:44:09.214
newspapers,
702
00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:13.030
and I'm not saying that this is a perfect functioning democratic model,
703
00:44:13.240 --> 00:44:15.910
but I am saying it's a very vibrant and robust one
704
00:44:18.520 --> 00:44:23.110
in August, 2002 Indonesia's popular assembly completed the fourth of a set of
705
00:44:23.111 --> 00:44:26.110
constitutional amendments that began in 1999.
706
00:44:26.770 --> 00:44:30.580
These reinvented Suharto's repressive authoritarian,
707
00:44:30.690 --> 00:44:35.640
bureaucratic new order by then become very old as a
708
00:44:35.670 --> 00:44:40.200
vaguely American style democracy set in a decentralized quasi
709
00:44:40.230 --> 00:44:44.700
Federation power had been stripped out from the presidency and
710
00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:49.770
delegated down in part to the national legislature and in part down to
711
00:44:49.771 --> 00:44:51.180
district municipalities,
712
00:44:51.780 --> 00:44:56.430
the elections now at the national provincial local and even village
713
00:44:56.460 --> 00:45:00.690
level and even a direct election for the head of state,
714
00:45:00.691 --> 00:45:04.100
see some can manage it. Oops,
715
00:45:04.101 --> 00:45:05.720
my politics just popped out then.
716
00:45:08.350 --> 00:45:12.410
Post-Its who Harteau democratization reforms. Weren't just about elections.
717
00:45:12.680 --> 00:45:17.030
Thank you Robin, for raising this issue for me. So kindly in fact,
718
00:45:17.031 --> 00:45:18.680
a lot of what Robin said about India,
719
00:45:18.681 --> 00:45:21.200
we just could have added an own leisure on the end,
720
00:45:21.201 --> 00:45:22.340
and we'd be pretty much there.
721
00:45:23.210 --> 00:45:27.380
The issues the national assembly decided over the six years from 1999 to
722
00:45:28.640 --> 00:45:31.520
2004, went to the very heart of the modern Indonesian state,
723
00:45:31.521 --> 00:45:35.270
including would Indonesia become an Islamic state,
724
00:45:35.271 --> 00:45:39.800
a question that has been raised on at least four major occasions and considered
725
00:45:39.801 --> 00:45:43.070
by national assemblies in Indonesia, since independence in 1945,
726
00:45:43.430 --> 00:45:46.280
the decision was no almost unanimously.
727
00:45:47.420 --> 00:45:50.120
Would it become a formal Federation again,
728
00:45:50.240 --> 00:45:54.830
no unanimously with the effect that the word Federation has described
729
00:45:54.831 --> 00:45:56.450
sometimes as the Indonesian F-word,
730
00:45:58.700 --> 00:46:02.450
wouldn't it in Indonesia split up no most decided lead. No,
731
00:46:02.690 --> 00:46:04.310
and it's very unlikely that it will.
732
00:46:05.660 --> 00:46:09.530
Would the military retain a formal role in politics? No, they wouldn't.
733
00:46:09.531 --> 00:46:11.540
And they were removed from the legislature.
734
00:46:12.560 --> 00:46:15.920
Would human rights be guaranteed and protected? Yes.
735
00:46:15.921 --> 00:46:19.580
And Indonesia inserted the universal declaration of human rights,
736
00:46:19.730 --> 00:46:23.990
almost intact into chapter 10 of the new amended constitution. Of course,
737
00:46:24.500 --> 00:46:27.110
there's a big step between passing a law and implementing it.
738
00:46:27.530 --> 00:46:29.930
But in terms of legal reform,
739
00:46:29.931 --> 00:46:33.110
at least the commitment was made by these legislators,
740
00:46:33.470 --> 00:46:35.510
which is the stage I'm discussing at the moment.
741
00:46:37.580 --> 00:46:38.630
Few at that time,
742
00:46:38.631 --> 00:46:42.920
believed that Indonesia's politicians famous for infighting and horse trading
743
00:46:42.921 --> 00:46:47.030
could resolve debates like these debates that had polarized their nation.
744
00:46:47.330 --> 00:46:51.320
And it caused civil wars collapse of governments,
745
00:46:52.070 --> 00:46:54.770
cous since independence in 1945. In fact,
746
00:46:54.771 --> 00:46:58.940
not only was a majority reach on all of these difficult issues, but in the end,
747
00:46:59.480 --> 00:47:02.870
the almost 700 members of the assembly decided most of these questions
748
00:47:02.871 --> 00:47:04.940
unanimously, even if on some occasions,
749
00:47:04.941 --> 00:47:08.330
it took days and nights continually of debate to do so
750
00:47:10.520 --> 00:47:13.670
since then a new generation of Indonesian politicians,
751
00:47:13.671 --> 00:47:17.840
or be it with some Suharto era survivors. In fact,
752
00:47:17.841 --> 00:47:22.460
quite a few have had to address other equally old and equally
753
00:47:22.461 --> 00:47:27.110
difficult issues. What will be the territorial limits of the Republic?
754
00:47:27.830 --> 00:47:30.880
What will be the status of Archie and Papa?
755
00:47:31.600 --> 00:47:33.670
How can the consistent, competent,
756
00:47:33.730 --> 00:47:38.440
and fair judicial system necessary to make other reforms work being
757
00:47:38.441 --> 00:47:43.150
created? And it still hasn't been with perhaps the honorable exception of the
758
00:47:43.151 --> 00:47:47.380
constitutional court, which is unlike all the other courts in Indonesia,
759
00:47:47.410 --> 00:47:48.250
not only functional,
760
00:47:48.251 --> 00:47:52.480
but probably one of the best courts in Southeast Asia
761
00:47:54.461 --> 00:47:56.950
constitutional courts in Southeast Asian region.
762
00:47:58.420 --> 00:48:01.420
How far can the military be stripped of its privileges?
763
00:48:01.900 --> 00:48:06.250
Its human rights abuses curtailed and its impunity
764
00:48:06.490 --> 00:48:09.310
removed in short.
765
00:48:09.400 --> 00:48:13.420
How could the new politicians unravel the pervasive system of institutionalized
766
00:48:13.421 --> 00:48:18.250
failure and corruption inherited from Suharto and deliberately created by
767
00:48:18.430 --> 00:48:19.960
Suharto and his system.
768
00:48:21.370 --> 00:48:26.080
And the fact of the elections that I've mentioned means that these
769
00:48:26.081 --> 00:48:29.920
politicians have been driven in much of what they have sought to do by civil
770
00:48:29.921 --> 00:48:30.754
society,
771
00:48:31.090 --> 00:48:35.560
which has blossomed since 1998 in a way very rarely seen in any
772
00:48:35.561 --> 00:48:40.450
country from zero to hero as an Indonesian activist said to
773
00:48:40.451 --> 00:48:44.800
me, or as they also say like mold in the rainy season,
774
00:48:45.430 --> 00:48:49.420
I think I like zero to hero better. You get the message. Anyway,
775
00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:53.080
this is this blossoming of civil societies,
776
00:48:53.081 --> 00:48:57.310
especially true of NGOs and of a very diverse free,
777
00:48:57.610 --> 00:48:59.590
and sometimes quite rabid media.
778
00:48:59.620 --> 00:49:04.540
Indonesia now has without question the freest media in
779
00:49:04.541 --> 00:49:06.940
Southeast Asia and perhaps in east Asia,
780
00:49:07.990 --> 00:49:12.430
something that is not entirely pleasing to the new breed of politicians all the.
781
00:49:12.430 --> 00:49:14.740
Time. The result.
782
00:49:14.770 --> 00:49:17.400
Is a much broader public understanding in Indonesia,
783
00:49:17.420 --> 00:49:21.490
the importance of political and legal change and institutional reform than at
784
00:49:21.580 --> 00:49:26.530
any time since the 1950s political debate in
785
00:49:26.531 --> 00:49:30.970
Indonesia is now very open sustained plural,
786
00:49:31.270 --> 00:49:36.100
often subtle and frequently colorful politicians
787
00:49:36.101 --> 00:49:38.080
are under extraordinary scrutiny. Of course,
788
00:49:38.081 --> 00:49:41.560
that doesn't guarantee they behave themselves all the time. It doesn't anywhere,
789
00:49:41.620 --> 00:49:44.680
but they are under great scrutiny. Of course,
790
00:49:44.681 --> 00:49:48.730
none of these massive process of change has been easy or completely successful.
791
00:49:48.790 --> 00:49:51.790
None of it has been completely successful. In fact,
792
00:49:51.791 --> 00:49:53.530
it has been slow difficult and very,
793
00:49:53.531 --> 00:49:58.330
very messy Indonesia was released from the massive IMF program of assistance
794
00:49:58.750 --> 00:50:02.050
that Suharto was forced to sign up to in
795
00:50:02.080 --> 00:50:04.090
1997 or eight,
796
00:50:04.780 --> 00:50:09.580
but Western investment has never returned to pre-crisis levels because business
797
00:50:09.581 --> 00:50:13.120
knows that reform has still got a long way to go. Of course it does.
798
00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:17.650
It's much easier to oppose into agitate than it is to organize and govern
799
00:50:19.450 --> 00:50:23.560
the opposition movements that have now come into government have not found the
800
00:50:23.561 --> 00:50:26.920
task of running the nation of 240 million, 17,000,
801
00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:29.270
every major religion and so forth,
802
00:50:30.200 --> 00:50:33.410
particularly any easier than the authoritarian governments before them
803
00:50:34.550 --> 00:50:35.211
rhetorically,
804
00:50:35.211 --> 00:50:39.050
at least the broad principles of a more just and democratic system and are
805
00:50:39.051 --> 00:50:40.280
broadly agreed upon,
806
00:50:40.640 --> 00:50:44.120
but much of the essential detail for implementing these principles,
807
00:50:44.121 --> 00:50:47.600
instrumentally and institutionally is still missing. Again,
808
00:50:48.260 --> 00:50:49.160
a nod to India.
809
00:50:50.720 --> 00:50:54.530
One consequence of this is that the new democratic politics in Indonesia gets a
810
00:50:54.531 --> 00:50:59.210
very bad press because there is a press now and it's
811
00:50:59.211 --> 00:51:00.320
actually politics.
812
00:51:01.190 --> 00:51:05.690
So we get an impression of absolute dysfunction when what is really happening is
813
00:51:05.691 --> 00:51:10.490
very significant dramatic reform. It's just that it can be talked about,
814
00:51:12.170 --> 00:51:16.250
and this is not uncommon in postal authoritarian states when the freedom to
815
00:51:16.251 --> 00:51:20.810
criticize becomes available and where the simple rules of dictatorship
816
00:51:21.260 --> 00:51:24.740
are replaced by the complexities and uncertainties of choice.
817
00:51:25.340 --> 00:51:29.870
Suddenly the authoritarianism that people fear when it was there can take on a
818
00:51:30.500 --> 00:51:33.380
static cue. It is, for example,
819
00:51:33.381 --> 00:51:37.310
often said in Indonesia that depending on politic political interests,
820
00:51:37.820 --> 00:51:41.750
that is political power games, dominate policy and lawmaking displacing,
821
00:51:41.751 --> 00:51:43.640
genuine concern for the nation's welfare,
822
00:51:44.150 --> 00:51:48.560
but it is unlikely really that politics in Indonesia is any more subject to
823
00:51:48.561 --> 00:51:52.610
these failings and in any other emergent democratic system or even some of the
824
00:51:52.611 --> 00:51:55.400
more established ones. And of course,
825
00:51:55.401 --> 00:51:59.480
most well-developed democratic systems remain played by into party squabbles and
826
00:51:59.481 --> 00:52:04.430
parliamentary power plays the reasons why gamesmanship have come so quickly
827
00:52:04.431 --> 00:52:08.960
to mark Indonesia's new democratic political system run deeper than mere
828
00:52:09.200 --> 00:52:10.640
political cupidity.
829
00:52:11.480 --> 00:52:14.450
They're rational responses to the nature of Indonesian society,
830
00:52:15.470 --> 00:52:18.020
to the expression of that society in a democratic system.
831
00:52:18.800 --> 00:52:23.270
First take the extraordinary religious ethnic and social diversity of
832
00:52:23.271 --> 00:52:24.104
Indonesia.
833
00:52:24.560 --> 00:52:29.000
This means that virtually any aspect of any policy will be challenged by some
834
00:52:29.060 --> 00:52:30.560
group within the population.
835
00:52:31.670 --> 00:52:35.360
Even the fundamental question of whether Indonesia should be a secular state,
836
00:52:35.361 --> 00:52:40.280
which is overwhelmingly accepted by Indonesian society and by all politicians at
837
00:52:40.281 --> 00:52:44.960
all political parties with only a few exceptions is hotly disputed by
838
00:52:44.961 --> 00:52:49.700
marginal militant Islamist groups, sometimes with bombs. Likewise,
839
00:52:49.790 --> 00:52:52.940
there is still no consensus on what authority regions should have in the center
840
00:52:52.941 --> 00:52:55.310
should have. Secondly,
841
00:52:55.820 --> 00:52:59.990
while every key aspect of policy is liable to challenge by some group common or
842
00:52:59.991 --> 00:53:04.100
diversity ensures that no single group has sufficient electoral support to get a
843
00:53:04.101 --> 00:53:04.940
clear majority.
844
00:53:05.210 --> 00:53:09.800
The majority of this necessary for its policies to dominate the result is a very
845
00:53:09.801 --> 00:53:13.700
diverse political system socially and politically in which coalitions shift and
846
00:53:13.701 --> 00:53:18.080
change with Barilla, bewildering speed as parliamentary groups,
847
00:53:18.110 --> 00:53:20.750
Jostle for numbers necessary to make laws.
848
00:53:22.130 --> 00:53:24.740
This pattern is not new and it's not unique to Indonesia,
849
00:53:25.440 --> 00:53:29.580
but it has been a key aspect of Indonesian political politics since 1945.
850
00:53:30.510 --> 00:53:35.280
And despite 32 years of being set on by the oppressive Suharto
851
00:53:35.281 --> 00:53:36.114
regime,
852
00:53:36.660 --> 00:53:41.220
one factor that has remained constant is this plurality commune or
853
00:53:41.730 --> 00:53:44.910
political loyalties in a highly religiously, ethnically,
854
00:53:44.970 --> 00:53:49.350
and economically diverse society that have remained basically the same despite
855
00:53:49.560 --> 00:53:53.990
being left-wing right-wing democratic authoritarian. Gotcha.
856
00:53:56.600 --> 00:53:58.310
Okay. The proximity, the next election,
857
00:53:58.700 --> 00:54:01.880
which is now already dominating political activity in Indonesia means that
858
00:54:01.881 --> 00:54:06.560
politicians will be playing close attention to the expectations of common or
859
00:54:06.561 --> 00:54:09.290
groups as they jockey for a position in the leader.
860
00:54:10.340 --> 00:54:12.830
The election will not be fought for outright victory,
861
00:54:13.070 --> 00:54:17.690
but for marginal additional percentages that will give individual parties more
862
00:54:17.691 --> 00:54:22.550
leverage in coalition building already at the president's own coalition
863
00:54:22.551 --> 00:54:24.560
within the legislature has disintegrated.
864
00:54:24.561 --> 00:54:28.280
His vice-president is starting to move against the president will probably run
865
00:54:28.281 --> 00:54:32.360
against him. The natural result is that parties have little option,
866
00:54:32.361 --> 00:54:34.850
but to swap votes in return for political advantage,
867
00:54:34.880 --> 00:54:39.110
no surprise to anyone who's a student of Australian politics.
868
00:54:40.280 --> 00:54:43.910
This has the effect of not only tending to create simplistic ill-defined common
869
00:54:43.911 --> 00:54:45.410
or platforms of most parties,
870
00:54:45.411 --> 00:54:50.180
but leaving wide room for maneuver on specific issues so that a vote on
871
00:54:50.181 --> 00:54:54.980
any issue becomes unpredictable and backflips become the standard daily exercise
872
00:54:54.981 --> 00:54:56.420
of Indonesian politicians.
873
00:54:58.280 --> 00:55:02.570
All that is certain in this atmosphere is first that it is unlikely to change at
874
00:55:02.571 --> 00:55:05.600
the next election or after, and second,
875
00:55:05.780 --> 00:55:09.200
that it is unlikely that any vote will be made entirely on its own merits.
876
00:55:09.440 --> 00:55:10.850
Again, what's new.
877
00:55:11.690 --> 00:55:14.450
The same is true here just by and all this.
878
00:55:14.600 --> 00:55:18.170
And despite the often stated argument that legal reform has failed in Indonesia,
879
00:55:18.500 --> 00:55:21.770
it's people have in the last four years developed considerable legislative
880
00:55:21.771 --> 00:55:25.790
experience, the blossoming of civil society and NGOs,
881
00:55:25.940 --> 00:55:30.560
the muzzling of the media means there is more capacity for awareness
882
00:55:30.561 --> 00:55:31.790
raising than ever before.
883
00:55:31.820 --> 00:55:36.320
And for understanding of the political process and for public debate commune or
884
00:55:36.321 --> 00:55:40.550
political groupings are unlikely to change, but in a hurry,
885
00:55:40.551 --> 00:55:44.300
but it may be possible through a gradual process of public debate in the
886
00:55:44.301 --> 00:55:48.680
legislature and outside it and mediated by institutions such as the new
887
00:55:48.681 --> 00:55:53.540
constitutional court to move slowly towards some sort of more sophisticated
888
00:55:53.570 --> 00:55:57.620
understanding about what politics should be like and how democracy is to run.
889
00:55:57.950 --> 00:56:00.020
In fact, I think this process has begun.
890
00:56:00.950 --> 00:56:04.970
The democratic ideal is now clearly agreed on by almost all parties,
891
00:56:05.120 --> 00:56:08.510
including the military as being the necessary outcome.
892
00:56:09.440 --> 00:56:13.010
Even if there is little understanding or consensus on the detail of that
893
00:56:13.011 --> 00:56:14.060
democratic ideal,
894
00:56:15.350 --> 00:56:18.740
the end result of all this is a grindingly slow, messy,
895
00:56:19.300 --> 00:56:23.830
and an even process with each year's batch of wrought
896
00:56:23.831 --> 00:56:28.330
reforms being tested in the crucible of real politic and in the courts.
897
00:56:28.810 --> 00:56:31.090
But despite all this progress is being made,
898
00:56:31.300 --> 00:56:33.280
the new constitution has shortcomings,
899
00:56:33.730 --> 00:56:37.930
but it is an incomparably better document than what existed before. In fact,
900
00:56:37.931 --> 00:56:41.290
it's probably one of the better democratic constitutions in the region.
901
00:56:43.840 --> 00:56:47.470
Historically few countries have ever been able to manage a transition from
902
00:56:47.471 --> 00:56:49.330
authoritarianism to democracy,
903
00:56:49.900 --> 00:56:53.680
purely through parliamentary debate without any constitutional commission,
904
00:56:53.830 --> 00:56:55.570
without any special external body,
905
00:56:55.720 --> 00:56:58.990
just horsetrading on the floor of parliament for four years.
906
00:56:59.500 --> 00:57:02.560
I don't think there's been more than one or two other countries that have ever
907
00:57:02.561 --> 00:57:05.920
achieved that. And that all was well for the future
908
00:57:08.290 --> 00:57:13.150
because to do it, the politicians arguing on the floor of the house had to
909
00:57:14.260 --> 00:57:16.870
either way privileges and powers to do so. And they did.
910
00:57:19.770 --> 00:57:23.340
What is your remarkable about the posts who had her transformation of Indonesia?
911
00:57:23.370 --> 00:57:26.580
Democratization is therefore not so much the morass of problems.
912
00:57:26.670 --> 00:57:31.410
It still faces and they are serious corruption in competence, poverty,
913
00:57:31.440 --> 00:57:35.730
institutional failure, continuing human rights, abuse, judicial inadequacy,
914
00:57:36.300 --> 00:57:39.090
not so much that that's not surprising at all.
915
00:57:39.930 --> 00:57:44.490
What is surprising is how far reform has actually come in such adverse
916
00:57:44.491 --> 00:57:45.540
circumstances,
917
00:57:46.050 --> 00:57:49.290
an economic collapse that was arguably the worst suffered by any country in the
918
00:57:49.291 --> 00:57:54.060
last century, the dismantling, not only of Suharto's repressive new order,
919
00:57:54.240 --> 00:57:57.270
but also of its elaborate system of administration.
920
00:57:59.220 --> 00:58:03.600
And then we have the resurgence of terrorist groups of old regional secessionist
921
00:58:03.601 --> 00:58:07.920
movements, a series of horrific national disaster, natural disasters,
922
00:58:08.250 --> 00:58:12.210
SARS earthquakes, tsunamis floods, avian flu,
923
00:58:12.540 --> 00:58:16.680
a succession of gasoline, transport disasters, planes, ferries, buses,
924
00:58:16.681 --> 00:58:21.330
trains the task of reinventing any state system. So it works better,
925
00:58:21.331 --> 00:58:24.360
is always extraordinarily difficult. And Indonesia,
926
00:58:24.960 --> 00:58:28.320
it is inevitably slow and painful. That is not surprising.
927
00:58:29.010 --> 00:58:33.210
This suggests the conclusion that in a nation denied constitutional debate or
928
00:58:33.211 --> 00:58:37.080
even constitutional review of laws for the last four decades,
929
00:58:37.470 --> 00:58:40.890
perhaps the most difficult process Indonesia is perhaps the difficult process.
930
00:58:40.891 --> 00:58:45.130
Indonesia is enduring is a necessary way to build a national understanding of
931
00:58:45.210 --> 00:58:49.380
the issues and put some content into the vague rhetoric of reform rights and
932
00:58:49.381 --> 00:58:53.760
democracy that was shouted so loudly around the time of Suharto's fall because
933
00:58:53.761 --> 00:58:55.440
content is what it needs.
934
00:58:56.610 --> 00:58:59.610
So democracy democratization our region. What do we mean?
935
00:58:59.610 --> 00:59:01.950
Our hopes are usually set far too high,
936
00:59:02.280 --> 00:59:07.260
our expectations to great of these developing countries with
937
00:59:07.261 --> 00:59:11.340
such limited resources and infrastructure professor Howard, Dick,
938
00:59:11.520 --> 00:59:16.230
who just happens to be from my university has put it quite nicely.
939
00:59:17.220 --> 00:59:20.100
The bolder response he said as in Europe,
940
00:59:20.130 --> 00:59:24.830
after world war two is to try and restore vitality skill and credibility
941
00:59:25.160 --> 00:59:27.980
to the domestic politics to allow society,
942
00:59:27.981 --> 00:59:32.510
to make political choices and political mistakes in the hope that it will
943
00:59:32.720 --> 00:59:37.550
muddle through in the very long run muddling through maybe the better
944
00:59:37.551 --> 00:59:42.170
strategy for searching and learning the shortest and least painful way to
945
00:59:42.171 --> 00:59:45.770
achieve the transition to democracy rather than enforcing it.
946
00:59:57.520 --> 00:59:57.730
[Inaudible].
947
00:59:57.730 --> 00:59:59.980
Thank you very much. Professor Tim Lindsey.
948
01:00:00.370 --> 01:00:05.230
Now we have around 30 minutes for questions. There are two microphones.
949
01:00:05.231 --> 01:00:09.430
One's located center of the hall here and there's one up on the balcony.
950
01:00:10.540 --> 01:00:12.370
Please make a way to the microphone.
951
01:00:12.371 --> 01:00:16.960
If you'd like to ask a question we've already got the queue forming.
952
01:00:16.961 --> 01:00:17.794
So
953
01:00:19.240 --> 01:00:22.300
if you'd like to direct your questions to one or more of the panelists,
954
01:00:22.360 --> 01:00:24.150
please do. So the gentlemen here.
955
01:00:25.180 --> 01:00:28.210
To all the panel, please I have a problem.
956
01:00:28.240 --> 01:00:32.620
I traveled to Iran regularly and I talk to students about freedom and
957
01:00:32.621 --> 01:00:37.330
democracy and they cannot quite understand why the
958
01:00:37.331 --> 01:00:41.140
Western world has not accepted the Hamas government in
959
01:00:42.100 --> 01:00:42.940
Palestine.
960
01:00:43.450 --> 01:00:47.920
I try to explain by pointing out that American
961
01:00:47.921 --> 01:00:52.770
democracy is rather manifold as was indeed indicated by the,
962
01:00:52.771 --> 01:00:56.350
the speakers here. And I said, essentially,
963
01:00:56.351 --> 01:01:00.820
American democracy is predatory capitalism and had an mystic
964
01:01:00.821 --> 01:01:04.780
consumerism and students. They liked that. And then I said, yes,
965
01:01:04.800 --> 01:01:09.700
but it also comes with something else and that's military occupation and the
966
01:01:09.701 --> 01:01:12.880
example they said, no, they wouldn't didn't believe that. And I said, yes,
967
01:01:12.970 --> 01:01:15.940
if you look at Germany and Japan,
968
01:01:16.480 --> 01:01:20.590
they're still occupied to the state. For example, the airspace over Tokyo,
969
01:01:20.591 --> 01:01:25.200
the a hundred kilometers is controlled by America. And in,
970
01:01:25.201 --> 01:01:27.490
in Germany they still haven't got a peace treaty.
971
01:01:27.610 --> 01:01:29.080
Could you comment on that please?
972
01:01:31.870 --> 01:01:33.130
I would like to tackle that one.
973
01:01:36.480 --> 01:01:40.000
I'm no expert on, on this issue, but I just have a go.
974
01:01:40.660 --> 01:01:45.070
Now I think the Hamas government has two things to offer
975
01:01:45.310 --> 01:01:47.380
one justice.
976
01:01:48.490 --> 01:01:53.290
It won elections because the
977
01:01:53.740 --> 01:01:58.440
previous government was so corrupt and you could appeal to the
978
01:01:58.450 --> 01:01:59.283
lottery.
979
01:02:00.220 --> 01:02:05.200
And of course it has some meaning to offer in a situation
980
01:02:05.230 --> 01:02:09.790
of poverty and desperation in offering
981
01:02:09.791 --> 01:02:13.210
certain broader sense of justice, which,
982
01:02:13.270 --> 01:02:17.890
which we certainly do not agree with the exercise of balance.
983
01:02:18.310 --> 01:02:23.010
But once I would like to interpret this in terms
984
01:02:23.011 --> 01:02:24.330
of values,
985
01:02:24.750 --> 01:02:29.730
in terms of what people are looking for in terms of what people we send,
986
01:02:30.180 --> 01:02:34.800
when you create a situation of poverty,
987
01:02:35.340 --> 01:02:38.160
desperation, injustice,
988
01:02:39.240 --> 01:02:43.800
you do give the hammers a very good chance of winning even by electro means.
989
01:02:46.970 --> 01:02:50.000
Comment apart from the fact that the question I probably should have been up on
990
01:02:50.001 --> 01:02:54.800
the stage just to point out that democracy is a many splendid
991
01:02:54.801 --> 01:02:57.860
thing. And if we look at the middle east,
992
01:02:58.280 --> 01:03:01.430
the two nations that have something that resembles the democracy in the sense
993
01:03:01.431 --> 01:03:05.360
that the position of
994
01:03:07.190 --> 01:03:11.540
the head of government could be won by an outsider or by any one of a number of
995
01:03:11.541 --> 01:03:12.374
candidates,
996
01:03:12.690 --> 01:03:17.390
if you go to Israel and ironically Iran is the two really only vaguely
997
01:03:17.391 --> 01:03:21.860
functioning democratic models in the area, not that either perfect or complete,
998
01:03:22.580 --> 01:03:26.300
but at least there is some democratic process there more than many of the
999
01:03:26.301 --> 01:03:27.134
others.
1000
01:03:28.990 --> 01:03:32.020
What I just perhaps add to those things that
1001
01:03:33.610 --> 01:03:34.720
I think the,
1002
01:03:34.750 --> 01:03:39.280
the comment raises the issue that has emerged very much over the last few years
1003
01:03:39.281 --> 01:03:44.260
from instructional practices that having the threat of military
1004
01:03:44.261 --> 01:03:46.750
force as a method to impose democracy,
1005
01:03:46.751 --> 01:03:50.110
there's just such a fundamental and problematic contradiction.
1006
01:03:50.380 --> 01:03:54.460
And it's clearly in the case of the United States
1007
01:03:56.110 --> 01:04:00.370
you hope that somebody in their policy think tanks or within the government is
1008
01:04:00.371 --> 01:04:04.960
realizing that that that's got so many contradictions built into it.
1009
01:04:04.961 --> 01:04:09.670
It just has to collapse that it's clearly what we're seeing in the context of
1010
01:04:09.760 --> 01:04:14.290
Iraq, the massive failure of really bringing democracy through the use of force,
1011
01:04:14.291 --> 01:04:18.640
that it's an impossible situation and has led to something. I mean,
1012
01:04:18.641 --> 01:04:22.870
the irony is of course that the seems that the United States in a sense in Iraq
1013
01:04:23.080 --> 01:04:27.640
on gets a sense that just now very much like a nice strong man to appear very
1014
01:04:27.641 --> 01:04:30.310
much like the person that they deposed.
1015
01:04:30.311 --> 01:04:34.990
So I think that one just hopes that the lessons of that have been sort of read
1016
01:04:35.500 --> 01:04:38.590
thoroughly by current and future administrations.
1017
01:04:41.190 --> 01:04:43.050
Take a question from the balcony.
1018
01:04:44.160 --> 01:04:47.460
My name is Peter Hunter. I have a question for Tim.
1019
01:04:47.940 --> 01:04:50.640
He made references to
1020
01:04:51.720 --> 01:04:56.250
Indonesia's performance in Southeast Asia.
1021
01:04:56.760 --> 01:04:57.870
My question really is,
1022
01:04:59.430 --> 01:05:03.270
is Australia a part of Southeast Asia? And if it is,
1023
01:05:03.330 --> 01:05:05.400
should we apply to become south and.
1024
01:05:10.920 --> 01:05:13.200
Well seeing nobody uses the term area on anymore,
1025
01:05:14.010 --> 01:05:16.500
presumably south pup would be even stranger.
1026
01:05:19.060 --> 01:05:21.490
Well I sincerely hope we are out of Southeast Asia.
1027
01:05:22.330 --> 01:05:25.600
I think the view is that we would like to be seen as part of Southeast Asia,
1028
01:05:25.601 --> 01:05:30.290
but the Southeast Asia very definitely doesn't see us as part of its region. No,
1029
01:05:30.291 --> 01:05:31.510
I think for many Australians,
1030
01:05:31.511 --> 01:05:35.620
the mental map of Australia is an island
1031
01:05:36.130 --> 01:05:40.270
somewhere in the Atlantic, halfway between Europe and the United States.
1032
01:05:42.420 --> 01:05:46.030
We sort of get vaguely surprised when we fly six or seven hours and find it's
1033
01:05:46.031 --> 01:05:47.110
really quite hot and warm.
1034
01:05:50.440 --> 01:05:53.470
You should've come to my talk before this it's exactly on that question.
1035
01:05:53.471 --> 01:05:58.000
But the, the short answer is that the perception that most Australians have of
1036
01:05:58.001 --> 01:06:02.680
themselves as an open tolerant racially
1037
01:06:05.170 --> 01:06:09.700
racially tolerant multicultural societies is absolutely not the view
1038
01:06:10.180 --> 01:06:14.500
that is held on Australia by most, not all, but most people in Southeast Asia.
1039
01:06:15.190 --> 01:06:20.110
And there was a great deal of mistrust of Australia as a potential white
1040
01:06:20.111 --> 01:06:23.770
colonizing power, whether or not justified.
1041
01:06:24.250 --> 01:06:25.540
And most of it is not justified.
1042
01:06:25.541 --> 01:06:28.450
These perceptions are very real in Southeast Asia.
1043
01:06:28.451 --> 01:06:32.800
And there's very little appreciation in Australia of how significantly that
1044
01:06:32.801 --> 01:06:35.830
affects our ambition to be part of Southeast Asia.
1045
01:06:36.580 --> 01:06:41.050
The sooner we do something about better presenting ourselves in Southeast Asia,
1046
01:06:41.440 --> 01:06:44.980
the more likely it is that we can become part of it. But at the moment,
1047
01:06:44.981 --> 01:06:48.940
I think we've most Southeast Asians would very definitely see us as still
1048
01:06:48.941 --> 01:06:52.530
floating in the Atlantic. And that much we seem to have in common with.
1049
01:06:54.090 --> 01:06:55.200
Very blatantly put.
1050
01:06:56.910 --> 01:06:57.580
Australia,
1051
01:06:57.580 --> 01:07:02.490
New Zealand and India have been taking part in the
1052
01:07:02.491 --> 01:07:06.990
east Asian summit. That is 10 us in countries, but China,
1053
01:07:07.020 --> 01:07:10.950
Japan, South Korea, plus Australia,
1054
01:07:11.100 --> 01:07:14.070
you will see them in India. I think this is a good start.
1055
01:07:14.400 --> 01:07:15.570
This is a good beginning.
1056
01:07:16.350 --> 01:07:19.410
At least Australia will make Asian games much more competitive.
1057
01:07:21.720 --> 01:07:26.580
But more seriously Australia certainly will have a very
1058
01:07:26.581 --> 01:07:31.500
important role to play in broadening the values of Asia
1059
01:07:32.460 --> 01:07:33.120
to,
1060
01:07:33.120 --> 01:07:37.740
to make issues such as human rights and
1061
01:07:37.741 --> 01:07:40.350
democracy carry more weight in.
1062
01:07:40.350 --> 01:07:41.760
This region. That's true.
1063
01:07:41.761 --> 01:07:45.270
But I have to say that one of the problems that Australia has in dealing with
1064
01:07:45.271 --> 01:07:49.260
this is that we generally do that by way of special pleading.
1065
01:07:49.860 --> 01:07:54.480
We don't maintain sufficient engagement on the sort of broad issues,
1066
01:07:54.481 --> 01:07:58.470
for example, death penalty until an Australian is involved.
1067
01:07:59.010 --> 01:08:02.550
And that means that when we go to make representations at that point,
1068
01:08:02.700 --> 01:08:04.050
it's special pleading about Australia.
1069
01:08:04.380 --> 01:08:07.320
We don't engage in a universal way on these issues,
1070
01:08:07.530 --> 01:08:11.400
such that the complaint about us citizens can be dealt with in the same way as a
1071
01:08:11.401 --> 01:08:13.920
complaint about citizens of those countries.
1072
01:08:14.220 --> 01:08:18.170
And we just haven't been effective in putting our values through as anything
1073
01:08:18.171 --> 01:08:20.540
else, other than looking after our name,
1074
01:08:21.020 --> 01:08:23.820
we need to change that there were some things that they might be,
1075
01:08:23.960 --> 01:08:26.450
but so far in my view, we've been a miserable failure.
1076
01:08:27.550 --> 01:08:30.520
Following on from that I've always found it really extraordinary that a major
1077
01:08:30.550 --> 01:08:31.840
foreign policy document,
1078
01:08:32.170 --> 01:08:36.010
the Australia's white paper and front policy is called in the national interest.
1079
01:08:36.310 --> 01:08:40.540
And I think that sums up a great problem in Australia that we would actually
1080
01:08:40.541 --> 01:08:43.690
want to put all our foreign policy interests,
1081
01:08:43.720 --> 01:08:47.440
but we only see them through the lens of our national interest.
1082
01:08:47.441 --> 01:08:50.050
And I think that reflects I've recently been in Bogan Ville.
1083
01:08:50.470 --> 01:08:54.070
And I was really struck there by how much
1084
01:08:54.820 --> 01:08:59.620
resentment and criticism there is of Australia there. And we're very much,
1085
01:08:59.621 --> 01:09:04.570
there's a, a contrast on between Australians and new Zealanders, very strongly.
1086
01:09:04.571 --> 01:09:07.930
And there's a sense that New Zealand is, have got a lot of things, right.
1087
01:09:07.960 --> 01:09:12.850
Especially in that part of the world. And the Australia has an still,
1088
01:09:12.851 --> 01:09:17.350
there's a real resentment about the rhetoric used by our political leaders about
1089
01:09:17.351 --> 01:09:18.041
those countries.
1090
01:09:18.041 --> 01:09:22.450
So I think we've got to really start rethinking what foreign policy is for.
1091
01:09:22.720 --> 01:09:25.330
And I would argue it's not just the national interest.
1092
01:09:33.850 --> 01:09:33.910
[Inaudible].
1093
01:09:33.910 --> 01:09:35.530
And whose national interest
1094
01:09:37.930 --> 01:09:42.640
democracy is an aspirational goal as we move to it
1095
01:09:43.090 --> 01:09:46.660
in ways that ebb and flow. If we,
1096
01:09:46.960 --> 01:09:49.720
if we continue to pretend that indigenous people didn't exist,
1097
01:09:49.721 --> 01:09:53.860
we could say Australia has been granted from our forefathers
1098
01:09:55.100 --> 01:09:59.890
quite advanced form of democracy. But I said,
1099
01:10:00.130 --> 01:10:05.110
I wanted to ask you a comment on my perception that we are in
1100
01:10:05.111 --> 01:10:10.000
an ebbing stage because of the overlay of plutocracy on
1101
01:10:10.001 --> 01:10:10.870
our democracy.
1102
01:10:11.440 --> 01:10:16.060
So we can talk about how other states democracies are
1103
01:10:16.061 --> 01:10:20.920
going, but their states of being interfered by our democracies.
1104
01:10:22.390 --> 01:10:24.460
My friend is a refugee from
1105
01:10:24.670 --> 01:10:27.580
September 11th,
1106
01:10:27.580 --> 01:10:32.080
2019 73 from Chile where CIA sponsored coup
1107
01:10:32.620 --> 01:10:36.460
over through a demotic democracy put in Pinochet.
1108
01:10:39.510 --> 01:10:42.820
We're in a, we're in a state in Australia where you can go and hear one,
1109
01:10:43.340 --> 01:10:48.220
one idea about song that seemed to sink from Sarah Madison
1110
01:10:48.221 --> 01:10:49.180
and Clive Hamilton.
1111
01:10:50.890 --> 01:10:55.840
Or you can hear from guide peers about how the climate policy has
1112
01:10:55.841 --> 01:10:59.230
been overtaken and written by a greenhouse mafia.
1113
01:11:00.400 --> 01:11:02.680
Our democracy depends on voice.
1114
01:11:02.710 --> 01:11:07.060
We have a concentration of media in Australia. We,
1115
01:11:07.061 --> 01:11:10.300
we are one paper state in south Australia.
1116
01:11:12.160 --> 01:11:16.410
Democracy means voice as well. And voice here depends on money.
1117
01:11:18.330 --> 01:11:21.750
Your interests depend on money and that is having a great effect here.
1118
01:11:22.350 --> 01:11:26.160
And I wanted to get your comments about how we can sort out our own backyard.
1119
01:11:32.620 --> 01:11:32.670
[Inaudible].
1120
01:11:32.670 --> 01:11:33.770
Australian democracy.
1121
01:11:35.360 --> 01:11:36.170
Yeah, well.
1122
01:11:36.170 --> 01:11:39.920
I, I think I would my own views. I would, I would agree with that.
1123
01:11:39.921 --> 01:11:44.540
And one of the things that I found striking in Australia's efforts at
1124
01:11:44.541 --> 01:11:46.100
democracy building, for example,
1125
01:11:46.101 --> 01:11:50.840
in the Solomon Islands to take another example that there's in the Solomon
1126
01:11:50.840 --> 01:11:55.010
Islands, there's a very keen criticism of
1127
01:11:55.130 --> 01:11:57.530
Australia's sort of practices and saying, well,
1128
01:11:57.531 --> 01:12:01.820
you've arrived here in charge of Ramsey to bring democracy to this poor
1129
01:12:01.821 --> 01:12:03.920
benighted country that canceled itself out.
1130
01:12:03.980 --> 01:12:08.780
And and a lot of some nuns that I've spoken to keep it
1131
01:12:08.781 --> 01:12:13.300
very clear sort of view of Australia and sort of say, how,
1132
01:12:13.301 --> 01:12:17.180
how can you sort of talk about this as a real form of democracy too?
1133
01:12:17.181 --> 01:12:20.780
And I think that in a way, a lot of the democracy building projects,
1134
01:12:20.781 --> 01:12:23.990
one could make the same point about other major democracy builders.
1135
01:12:24.020 --> 01:12:28.790
The United States takes up very flawed accounts of democracy.
1136
01:12:28.790 --> 01:12:32.330
And I think that one way that we will,
1137
01:12:32.331 --> 01:12:33.800
this is only indirectly respond to your point,
1138
01:12:33.801 --> 01:12:37.520
but one way that I think we'd be a lot more successful if we are trying to build
1139
01:12:37.521 --> 01:12:42.380
democracy in other countries is to be really honest about the flaws and the
1140
01:12:42.560 --> 01:12:43.670
three real problems.
1141
01:12:44.000 --> 01:12:48.590
And I'm always struck particularly by the position of women so that we will
1142
01:12:48.591 --> 01:12:53.240
often go to other countries and say, ah, we'd sort of like to sort out,
1143
01:12:53.270 --> 01:12:55.640
get a bit of equality for women, and we're going to do these things.
1144
01:12:55.641 --> 01:12:58.730
And we think, well, if one just looks at what's going on in Australia,
1145
01:12:59.000 --> 01:13:03.470
there are obviously real problems with representation of women in public life
1146
01:13:03.830 --> 01:13:07.010
and corporate life and so on. And yet we go and just mouth,
1147
01:13:07.040 --> 01:13:10.730
I think what essentially platitudes, which alienates people.
1148
01:13:10.731 --> 01:13:14.690
So I think that one of the things we don't do enough is to acknowledge our own
1149
01:13:14.691 --> 01:13:17.240
culture. We just assume other countries have got culture.
1150
01:13:17.620 --> 01:13:20.120
What we've got is a sort of norm. So I think,
1151
01:13:20.540 --> 01:13:24.740
I think that we have to in this whole enterprise as Australians, be very,
1152
01:13:24.741 --> 01:13:29.270
very careful and acknowledge all the really significant
1153
01:13:30.170 --> 01:13:33.680
problems that we have. So I, I just would take your point. I think.
1154
01:13:34.850 --> 01:13:37.730
Even everybody became his own efforts,
1155
01:13:37.820 --> 01:13:42.470
trying very hard and talking about one paper state
1156
01:13:44.480 --> 01:13:49.460
in the days when the common 10 government control all the media in Taiwan before
1157
01:13:49.580 --> 01:13:51.140
its democratization process,
1158
01:13:51.500 --> 01:13:55.850
the opposition was very innovative in
1159
01:13:55.851 --> 01:13:56.870
generating many,
1160
01:13:56.871 --> 01:14:01.850
many radio stations at very low cost and
1161
01:14:01.851 --> 01:14:04.190
they did play a very important role.
1162
01:14:04.220 --> 01:14:08.660
So just a very small example of making one's own efforts.
1163
01:14:10.990 --> 01:14:12.490
Before I go to the next question. All right.
1164
01:14:12.550 --> 01:14:16.150
I just to follow on from Hillary's comment there,
1165
01:14:16.160 --> 01:14:18.670
I need to let people know that in south Australia,
1166
01:14:18.671 --> 01:14:22.480
we have a specific target to have 50% of the membership of their parliament
1167
01:14:22.840 --> 01:14:26.080
being female by 2014.
1168
01:14:26.081 --> 01:14:30.730
So that's as a goal that everywhere we're on the way.
1169
01:14:31.390 --> 01:14:36.310
But that is a an interesting approach to trying to look
1170
01:14:36.311 --> 01:14:40.270
at improving the representation in systems,
1171
01:14:40.271 --> 01:14:45.100
but also talks to the issue of how you do engage a
1172
01:14:45.101 --> 01:14:47.530
broader community in the political process,
1173
01:14:47.710 --> 01:14:51.220
and to pick up some of the points that others have made about foot modes of
1174
01:14:51.221 --> 01:14:55.300
communication and drawing on people's desire to actually be,
1175
01:14:55.360 --> 01:14:59.020
be part of a broader fellowship as at word, as a,
1176
01:14:59.021 --> 01:15:01.120
as a motivation for becoming more involved.
1177
01:15:02.500 --> 01:15:04.480
Our next question from the balcony place.
1178
01:15:05.250 --> 01:15:09.060
Oh, this is a question for Tim. You spoke about Indonesia,
1179
01:15:09.180 --> 01:15:13.860
rabid media and the flurry of NGO activity that's occurring in that
1180
01:15:13.861 --> 01:15:14.694
country.
1181
01:15:15.390 --> 01:15:19.830
You also talk about its problems with secessionism and with the differences
1182
01:15:19.831 --> 01:15:21.870
amongst the peoples that inhabit that country.
1183
01:15:22.290 --> 01:15:26.550
A lot of that sounds very familiar to what Russia was going through under the
1184
01:15:26.551 --> 01:15:27.480
Yeltsin period,
1185
01:15:27.510 --> 01:15:32.280
when you did see a lot of active media and you did see a lot of NGOs popping
1186
01:15:32.281 --> 01:15:36.120
up that has now since come very far and done.
1187
01:15:36.450 --> 01:15:39.840
And I'm just wondering whether you think that that sort of process will go on
1188
01:15:39.841 --> 01:15:40.940
the same way in Indonesia,
1189
01:15:40.950 --> 01:15:45.030
whether or not you think it will be viable a bit more stronger and kick on.
1190
01:15:46.140 --> 01:15:46.470
Yes.
1191
01:15:46.470 --> 01:15:51.360
Thanks crystal ball gazing about Indonesia is a notoriously dangerous exercise.
1192
01:15:51.750 --> 01:15:54.660
Friend of mine used to keep a file on predictions of the imminent fall of
1193
01:15:54.661 --> 01:15:59.280
Suharto and stopped doing so when it occupied to cabinet two filing cabinet
1194
01:15:59.281 --> 01:16:00.114
drawers,
1195
01:16:00.210 --> 01:16:04.470
and it was getting on for 30 years around at which moment he then did in fact
1196
01:16:04.830 --> 01:16:07.560
four, maybe there was a link.
1197
01:16:10.350 --> 01:16:11.940
Look, I'd hate to be putting money on this,
1198
01:16:11.941 --> 01:16:16.770
but my own feeling is that the democratic transition in Indonesia is about as
1199
01:16:16.771 --> 01:16:19.680
strong transition as you could hope for.
1200
01:16:19.920 --> 01:16:24.390
I don't see any possibility of it reverting to military rule
1201
01:16:25.440 --> 01:16:26.910
in the next 10 or 20 years.
1202
01:16:27.660 --> 01:16:32.250
I don't see the emergence of a strong man figure like
1203
01:16:32.610 --> 01:16:34.980
a Putin in Russia. I don't see that happening.
1204
01:16:36.630 --> 01:16:40.740
There are real similarities. I think between Indonesia and Russia,
1205
01:16:40.770 --> 01:16:44.310
both sprawling archipelago nations,
1206
01:16:45.150 --> 01:16:46.740
Russia is archipelago is on the land,
1207
01:16:47.580 --> 01:16:51.000
but they are very similar in their expense and spread the ethnic diversity,
1208
01:16:51.001 --> 01:16:53.460
religious diversity, the postal authoritarianism,
1209
01:16:53.790 --> 01:16:58.740
the emergence of NGOs and civil society, postal authoritarianism, the nostalgia,
1210
01:16:59.010 --> 01:17:00.840
all those sorts of very similar problems.
1211
01:17:00.840 --> 01:17:05.460
But Indonesia seems to have made a stronger commitment
1212
01:17:05.640 --> 01:17:07.950
commitment to this multi-party process.
1213
01:17:08.280 --> 01:17:11.600
And if you look at Russia with its ongoing problems with Chechnya
1214
01:17:13.220 --> 01:17:17.240
Indonesia's church was RJ, and that has,
1215
01:17:17.241 --> 01:17:20.360
I have no doubt about this. It has been resolved,
1216
01:17:21.260 --> 01:17:24.440
not all aspects of it, but the conflict has been resolved in nutshell.
1217
01:17:25.390 --> 01:17:28.580
Maybe that's one of the advantages of being a C archipelago rather than the land
1218
01:17:28.581 --> 01:17:31.640
when you get tsunamis. Because ironically,
1219
01:17:31.641 --> 01:17:34.820
that was a key factor that allowed our chair to be settled.
1220
01:17:34.850 --> 01:17:37.580
But if we were to compare the two records beside each other,
1221
01:17:37.880 --> 01:17:42.620
there's no doubt that Indonesia is doing better in terms of a transition to
1222
01:17:42.890 --> 01:17:45.350
a more liberal democratic model. And Russia has.
1223
01:17:45.740 --> 01:17:50.690
And I think all the indications are that it's very unlikely that we'll shift
1224
01:17:50.691 --> 01:17:52.760
back very unlikely. Indeed.
1225
01:17:53.210 --> 01:17:57.290
One of the reasons for that is that that when
1226
01:17:59.030 --> 01:18:00.860
events have occurred that suggests
1227
01:18:02.630 --> 01:18:06.230
military trying to reassert its rights. It, it creates huge,
1228
01:18:06.290 --> 01:18:09.260
huge protests from right across society,
1229
01:18:09.890 --> 01:18:12.080
not just civil society within government as well.
1230
01:18:14.770 --> 01:18:19.390
Yeah, we have that 10 minutes left. We need to clear the venue at one 15 sharp,
1231
01:18:19.990 --> 01:18:24.100
and I can see seven questions waiting so people could try and keep the
1232
01:18:24.580 --> 01:18:26.590
questions and answers as concise as possible.
1233
01:18:26.591 --> 01:18:29.260
It gives us quite a chance of getting through everybody.
1234
01:18:29.261 --> 01:18:30.940
Who's waiting down here. Thank you.
1235
01:18:31.490 --> 01:18:36.110
A quick introductory comment. When listening to Tim, I couldn't help,
1236
01:18:36.111 --> 01:18:37.220
but feel some
1237
01:18:39.590 --> 01:18:44.510
envy for Indonesia in two senses that we ha
1238
01:18:44.780 --> 01:18:49.280
they are have a large number of contesting political
1239
01:18:49.281 --> 01:18:54.230
parties and apparently very large number of contesting
1240
01:18:55.400 --> 01:18:58.880
newspapers and other media. So different from here.
1241
01:18:59.270 --> 01:19:03.140
And I would have thought so important to robust democracy.
1242
01:19:04.040 --> 01:19:07.460
However, my question goes to something slightly different. In fact,
1243
01:19:07.461 --> 01:19:10.970
builds on the immediately earlier question from the floor here,
1244
01:19:11.460 --> 01:19:16.190
that is an aspect of our own democracy being under
1245
01:19:16.191 --> 01:19:19.100
threat. In addition to the two issues mentioned,
1246
01:19:19.101 --> 01:19:23.780
then namely the disengagement of the electorate
1247
01:19:25.080 --> 01:19:29.330
and also the increasing ignorance of the electorate
1248
01:19:29.570 --> 01:19:31.460
about real issues.
1249
01:19:33.260 --> 01:19:35.630
In a previous conversation just before this,
1250
01:19:35.631 --> 01:19:40.370
someone pointed out that in the UK 30% of the
1251
01:19:40.371 --> 01:19:44.990
people who don't know whether the earth goes around the sun or vice versa,
1252
01:19:46.100 --> 01:19:50.480
how can such an ignorant population have a,
1253
01:19:50.481 --> 01:19:51.920
an effective democracy?
1254
01:19:53.000 --> 01:19:54.800
You mentioned, imagine. So at work,
1255
01:19:54.950 --> 01:19:58.950
you mentioned thinking that the sun doesn't go around there. Yeah.
1256
01:20:02.840 --> 01:20:06.920
Like my first use, I leave it to my friends,
1257
01:20:06.921 --> 01:20:09.600
to on Australian arrangements of someone we should.
1258
01:20:09.750 --> 01:20:12.540
But I would just say one thing that'd be to NBC Indonesia,
1259
01:20:13.800 --> 01:20:14.910
particularly if you're arrested.
1260
01:20:17.340 --> 01:20:20.070
There's some things we do pretty well because what we're talking about in
1261
01:20:20.071 --> 01:20:21.120
Indonesia are two things.
1262
01:20:21.121 --> 01:20:25.440
One is the establishment of an electoral democracy picking at Robbins critical
1263
01:20:25.441 --> 01:20:29.850
distinction. I think it's absolutely essential electoral democracy,
1264
01:20:29.970 --> 01:20:34.470
but without an institutional democracy, that's mature institutions in place,
1265
01:20:34.471 --> 01:20:38.430
but most of them inadequate or failed what we, whatever we,
1266
01:20:38.590 --> 01:20:43.380
we think about engagement and our lack of political parties and lack
1267
01:20:43.381 --> 01:20:47.610
of media and all these concerns that are real concerns in Australia and
1268
01:20:48.210 --> 01:20:50.700
so forth. We do have mature institutions,
1269
01:20:51.030 --> 01:20:54.210
institutional democracy is established and strong here.
1270
01:20:54.690 --> 01:20:58.530
And that is the very thing that is absent from so many developing countries.
1271
01:20:58.770 --> 01:20:59.670
And frankly,
1272
01:20:59.700 --> 01:21:04.200
giving elections to countries doesn't create fair and just
1273
01:21:04.710 --> 01:21:09.180
systems of government because they don't provide scrutiny of the government.
1274
01:21:09.181 --> 01:21:12.630
Once it's chosen, you need institutional democracy for that.
1275
01:21:12.930 --> 01:21:15.780
And that is the struggle and the challenge that they face,
1276
01:21:15.781 --> 01:21:19.050
which is why you can have fair and free electoral processes and the crap
1277
01:21:19.080 --> 01:21:21.360
government, you know,
1278
01:21:21.361 --> 01:21:25.410
this is the classic experience for places like East Timor,
1279
01:21:27.000 --> 01:21:29.100
which has another place that doesn't like Australia. Very much.
1280
01:21:32.540 --> 01:21:36.650
People, complacent. People do get lazy.
1281
01:21:37.520 --> 01:21:40.220
And as I was saying,
1282
01:21:40.520 --> 01:21:43.380
people do engage in simple cost,
1283
01:21:44.000 --> 01:21:47.390
cost benefit analysis when things aren't too bad,
1284
01:21:47.450 --> 01:21:49.640
when there's not much of a chance to change things,
1285
01:21:49.910 --> 01:21:54.440
then they try very hard to improve one's own living standards by one's own
1286
01:21:54.441 --> 01:21:56.870
efforts. These are obvious,
1287
01:21:56.871 --> 01:22:01.700
dangerous and UC Greca dangerous say in the United States
1288
01:22:02.600 --> 01:22:06.680
in Hong Kong, many of my friends, we, we shared a lot of ideas.
1289
01:22:06.681 --> 01:22:08.600
When we attended universities,
1290
01:22:08.900 --> 01:22:11.990
they became successful business executive businessmen.
1291
01:22:12.950 --> 01:22:14.660
Then they think everything is quite all right.
1292
01:22:15.230 --> 01:22:19.970
So it demands a self examination process.
1293
01:22:20.120 --> 01:22:24.440
If you want democracy to do fly,
1294
01:22:25.250 --> 01:22:29.960
it calls upon every one of us to ask what you can do
1295
01:22:30.410 --> 01:22:33.290
constantly. This is hot.
1296
01:22:42.350 --> 01:22:42.380
[Inaudible].
1297
01:22:42.380 --> 01:22:45.830
Worth noting in that context, that in the last 20 years,
1298
01:22:46.280 --> 01:22:51.200
untouchables in India have voted in larger proportion than the population,
1299
01:22:51.201 --> 01:22:56.120
generally five or 6% more untouchables vote than the general population vote.
1300
01:22:56.630 --> 01:22:59.900
An indication that the vote is highly valued by,
1301
01:22:59.930 --> 01:23:02.840
by the poor indeed many people reply when asked.
1302
01:23:03.080 --> 01:23:06.520
It's one of the things I have it's about my honor, my dignity.
1303
01:23:07.770 --> 01:23:09.450
Well, so I just like to question,
1304
01:23:09.480 --> 01:23:12.240
I don't know what figures the question it was drawing on,
1305
01:23:12.241 --> 01:23:16.950
but the sense that we are less engaged now in Australia than before that there's
1306
01:23:16.951 --> 01:23:21.450
been a lack of increasing lack of interest. That's not what I observe.
1307
01:23:21.690 --> 01:23:24.720
And of course we do have, we do have a fairly narrow media.
1308
01:23:24.721 --> 01:23:26.710
I think that is an issue, but I,
1309
01:23:26.711 --> 01:23:31.380
I don't think I'd sort of want to query the premise that generally people
1310
01:23:31.440 --> 01:23:35.880
are, are less engaged. I must say, as a university teacher,
1311
01:23:35.910 --> 01:23:39.150
that's not what I observed in students.
1312
01:23:39.151 --> 01:23:43.740
And I find them critically engaged and really alive to many of the problems that
1313
01:23:43.741 --> 01:23:48.630
we face. So I don't have that feeling really of pessimism about civil society.
1314
01:23:48.631 --> 01:23:51.000
We have many more now, very active NGOs,
1315
01:23:51.001 --> 01:23:54.720
and I'm always really humbled by the energy that people put into this.
1316
01:23:54.721 --> 01:23:58.140
So I'd just like to query that that premise initially.
1317
01:24:00.870 --> 01:24:04.860
Please. Yes. In human history,
1318
01:24:04.890 --> 01:24:05.970
including the present,
1319
01:24:06.240 --> 01:24:09.840
which do you think has been the most successful democracy and why
1320
01:24:11.520 --> 01:24:12.360
in 10 seconds,
1321
01:24:16.190 --> 01:24:19.470
if it's coming, I'll give you a call.
1322
01:24:24.480 --> 01:24:27.120
[Inaudible] The Scandinavian countries haven't done too badly.
1323
01:24:30.030 --> 01:24:30.863
Why
1324
01:24:33.030 --> 01:24:35.820
all countries high living standards
1325
01:24:40.530 --> 01:24:43.020
whites equal distribution of income.
1326
01:24:43.830 --> 01:24:48.210
And therefore people have time to think about politics,
1327
01:24:48.211 --> 01:24:50.340
about helping the world and.
1328
01:24:50.340 --> 01:24:53.130
A lot more women in politics. The Nordics.
1329
01:24:57.330 --> 01:25:01.080
Interestingly talking about small countries here reminds us of the point that
1330
01:25:01.081 --> 01:25:05.100
it's much easier to govern small countries in very, very big countries.
1331
01:25:05.430 --> 01:25:07.890
And we often believe that over the equation.
1332
01:25:09.500 --> 01:25:11.910
They're very quickly up in the balcony. Yes.
1333
01:25:12.810 --> 01:25:15.060
I think it's probably accepted,
1334
01:25:15.090 --> 01:25:19.530
but not articulated that building democracy is essentially a DIY project.
1335
01:25:20.040 --> 01:25:23.520
You can't sort of look up at democratizer and the yellow pages to come in and do
1336
01:25:23.521 --> 01:25:26.460
it for you. And it's the quality of the,
1337
01:25:26.660 --> 01:25:30.660
of of the work that's done there that does it. But to me,
1338
01:25:30.720 --> 01:25:34.350
the acid test, and this is summed up by comparing,
1339
01:25:34.410 --> 01:25:38.040
comparing Indonesia and Palestine, the acid test,
1340
01:25:38.220 --> 01:25:42.960
the success in democracy is the peaceful transfer of power from one group to
1341
01:25:42.961 --> 01:25:44.100
another via the ballot.
1342
01:25:45.660 --> 01:25:48.300
Yes. And in Indonesia case,
1343
01:25:48.330 --> 01:25:53.210
that's happened three times now. And I want the, the,
1344
01:25:53.211 --> 01:25:57.510
the critical test was when that's so called hero democracy
1345
01:25:58.200 --> 01:26:02.970
of the runway ahead, when impeached and removed from office ordered the,
1346
01:26:03.380 --> 01:26:06.530
to dissolve the legislature and arrest all the legislators.
1347
01:26:06.531 --> 01:26:10.280
So he could roll directly by decree. And the army said, no,
1348
01:26:11.720 --> 01:26:13.700
and that was the moment at which, for me,
1349
01:26:13.970 --> 01:26:17.570
you could say whatever their motivations, the transition of being completed.
1350
01:26:18.080 --> 01:26:22.880
I just add also that I think everyone does agree that it is
1351
01:26:23.120 --> 01:26:27.530
something you can't look up in the telephone book and call in someone to do
1352
01:26:27.531 --> 01:26:30.620
democracy for you. But no one's told the IMF and the world bank.
1353
01:26:37.690 --> 01:26:38.523
[Inaudible].
1354
01:26:39.420 --> 01:26:44.030
I think we might just have to take one more. I'm afraid. My question.
1355
01:26:44.030 --> 01:26:45.050
Is a very quick one.
1356
01:26:45.770 --> 01:26:50.270
What does the panel think about the reaction from the Australian and
1357
01:26:50.271 --> 01:26:54.890
New Zealand governments to the most recent eruption in the south Pacific
1358
01:26:54.950 --> 01:26:58.610
Navy on December the sixth, last year in Fiji.
1359
01:26:59.060 --> 01:27:03.620
And would you might contrast their reaction to that military takeover with the
1360
01:27:03.621 --> 01:27:07.280
one that happened just a few weeks before in Thailand,
1361
01:27:13.610 --> 01:27:15.560
Fiji, smaller than Thailand.
1362
01:27:23.180 --> 01:27:24.740
It's not a principal response
1363
01:27:32.180 --> 01:27:33.013
putting, had it pretty clear.
1364
01:27:35.900 --> 01:27:39.620
I think we need to wind up. It's been a very interesting discussion.
1365
01:27:39.621 --> 01:27:42.830
Thank you very much to our panelists. We've covered the whole world.
1366
01:27:43.820 --> 01:27:46.310
They've given us something to feel a little bit more positive about,
1367
01:27:46.311 --> 01:27:49.010
especially in terms of Indonesia, Uttar, Pradesh.
1368
01:27:50.100 --> 01:27:52.070
I'd asked you please to join me now and thanking you.
1369
01:27:52.220 --> 01:27:53.053
To that.
1370
01:27:59.090 --> 01:27:59.090
[inaudible].