WEBVTT
1
00:00:00.180 --> 00:00:01.110
My name is Ian Gibbons,
2
00:00:01.111 --> 00:00:04.140
and I'm a neuroscientist and [inaudable] at Flinders uni,
3
00:00:04.530 --> 00:00:06.690
and we're in for a terrific session this afternoon.
4
00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:10.410
I'll introduce to the people in a moment, but first of all,
5
00:00:10.650 --> 00:00:12.270
as it's the tradition around here,
6
00:00:12.271 --> 00:00:15.060
we acknowledge that we're gathered today on the traditional country of the
7
00:00:15.061 --> 00:00:19.980
Kaurna people that lied pipelines and respect and acknowledged the long
8
00:00:20.280 --> 00:00:21.840
held association with the land.
9
00:00:22.860 --> 00:00:26.280
So today we're going to talk about the addictive brain,
10
00:00:26.790 --> 00:00:30.990
which as you I'm sure you'll find will take us into a whole range of areas,
11
00:00:31.020 --> 00:00:33.150
which is going to have a much,
12
00:00:33.151 --> 00:00:36.450
much more material than possibly doing 45 minutes aside.
13
00:00:36.780 --> 00:00:40.920
So we're going to probably skip and jump around a little bit and take the
14
00:00:40.921 --> 00:00:45.330
conversation as it goes. And so joining us in the conversation today,
15
00:00:45.630 --> 00:00:50.520
we've got three fantastic people who are experts in not only a
16
00:00:50.521 --> 00:00:53.730
small area, but they all cover big areas, which is really fantastic,
17
00:00:53.820 --> 00:00:57.060
which is partly why they're here. So, first of all, you have Jon Jureidini here,
18
00:00:57.960 --> 00:01:01.020
who's Charlotte's psychiatrist at the women's children's hospital in Adelaide
19
00:01:01.590 --> 00:01:03.450
with a background in philosophy, as well as,
20
00:01:03.900 --> 00:01:06.810
as well as psychology is now in professor of disciplines,
21
00:01:06.870 --> 00:01:09.450
in the disciplines of psychiatry and pediatrics, university of Adelaide.
22
00:01:09.900 --> 00:01:11.250
He has lots of other things as well.
23
00:01:12.150 --> 00:01:15.600
He's chair of the Australian Palestinian partnerships with education and health
24
00:01:16.050 --> 00:01:20.340
and his interests include quality use of medicines, immigration, detention,
25
00:01:20.341 --> 00:01:22.380
suicide, mental education, and child abuse.
26
00:01:22.381 --> 00:01:27.240
So pretty wide range of interests going from, from the laboratory through to,
27
00:01:27.300 --> 00:01:29.220
to the social ramps. I think welcome Sean.
28
00:01:34.820 --> 00:01:35.653
[inaudible] Next up,
29
00:01:36.320 --> 00:01:41.150
we've got Olivia Carter and Olivia is currently a senior
30
00:01:41.151 --> 00:01:44.990
research fellow and lecturer in psychology at university of Melbourne.
31
00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:49.070
And she heads the perception of pharmacology research lab working to understand
32
00:01:49.071 --> 00:01:52.970
how the brain's natural chemicals control, complex behavior,
33
00:01:53.180 --> 00:01:54.530
thoughts and perceptions,
34
00:01:54.740 --> 00:01:57.560
but she's got a background again and diverse background looking at the
35
00:01:57.561 --> 00:02:02.060
hallucinogenic drugs and also working in the visual system. So again,
36
00:02:02.061 --> 00:02:06.350
a wide range of expertise and background. So welcome Olivia
37
00:02:10.850 --> 00:02:14.330
[Inaudible]. Then over at the end of the row over there, we've got Wayne Hall.
38
00:02:14.570 --> 00:02:16.580
Who's come down from Brisbane,
39
00:02:16.940 --> 00:02:21.470
his NHMRC Australia fellow in addiction and neuro ethics at the
40
00:02:21.471 --> 00:02:23.840
university of Queensland center for clinical research.
41
00:02:24.290 --> 00:02:27.740
And he's been professor of public health policy has been directed the office of
42
00:02:27.741 --> 00:02:28.850
public health policy and ethics.
43
00:02:28.910 --> 00:02:32.150
The Institute of molecular bio-science Queensland has been director of national
44
00:02:32.151 --> 00:02:33.790
drug alcohol research Sydney,
45
00:02:33.791 --> 00:02:38.780
new south Wales has worked with the world health organization and is currently
46
00:02:38.781 --> 00:02:39.830
working on a whole range of things,
47
00:02:39.831 --> 00:02:44.120
including the contribution of illicit drug use to the global burden of disease
48
00:02:44.330 --> 00:02:48.620
and its ethical implications in whole range of areas as well. So again,
49
00:02:48.830 --> 00:02:52.040
welcome mine and another person with a wide range of issues.
50
00:02:55.550 --> 00:02:57.440
[inaudible] So we're going to run this as a conversation.
51
00:02:57.560 --> 00:03:01.120
We haven't rehearsed anything. I've got a list of questions, which,
52
00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:04.420
which seems had to look at and maybe thought about with a bit of luck.
53
00:03:05.710 --> 00:03:09.640
So we're going to be talking about the addictive Bryant and perhaps the first
54
00:03:09.641 --> 00:03:11.860
thing to, to consider.
55
00:03:11.861 --> 00:03:15.160
And I will ask each person in turn is what you actually mean by addiction.
56
00:03:15.400 --> 00:03:17.710
So what is addiction?
57
00:03:18.640 --> 00:03:22.930
What's the difference between addiction and a habit or dependence?
58
00:03:23.050 --> 00:03:25.750
And how would you define an addictive brain? John?
59
00:03:27.700 --> 00:03:29.310
I guess my first comment would be, it's not,
60
00:03:29.340 --> 00:03:33.270
it's not going to be a niche category that we're not going to be able to.
61
00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:37.890
I think with any precision separates somebody from addict,
62
00:03:37.920 --> 00:03:42.690
somebody who's addicted from somebody who's not addicted. And I think, you know,
63
00:03:42.691 --> 00:03:47.670
often there's a focus on the physical addiction to chemicals,
64
00:03:47.700 --> 00:03:51.660
which plays a very small part in the whole addictive process.
65
00:03:52.860 --> 00:03:56.460
So that I think all of the time that we're talking about addiction,
66
00:03:56.461 --> 00:03:59.310
we need to be conscious of the fact that we're talking about a fairly wooly
67
00:03:59.311 --> 00:04:02.610
concept one over the others would agree with that or...
68
00:04:06.280 --> 00:04:09.420
I guess from, from, from my side,
69
00:04:09.421 --> 00:04:14.310
I lean back on the pure clinical
70
00:04:14.311 --> 00:04:17.160
definition where it seems to really imply a degree of harm.
71
00:04:17.430 --> 00:04:21.990
But I think that itself is also very fully concept because if two people are
72
00:04:21.991 --> 00:04:23.400
behaving in the same way,
73
00:04:23.730 --> 00:04:26.580
sort of how it might impact on their life or the amount of drugs they're taking
74
00:04:26.581 --> 00:04:30.240
can have radically different effects on the individual's life and circumstances.
75
00:04:30.241 --> 00:04:34.710
So do you think it's hard to determine at what point someone's addicted,
76
00:04:34.711 --> 00:04:38.490
even on the basis of, of harm or, you know,
77
00:04:38.790 --> 00:04:41.490
which behavior is I was just today,
78
00:04:42.120 --> 00:04:45.810
I'm pregnant and I've been craving apples that I was thinking to myself this
79
00:04:45.811 --> 00:04:47.670
morning. I had to go to the shop and buy it. You know,
80
00:04:47.671 --> 00:04:50.420
I had to buy three apples that I had, you know, one after another.
81
00:04:50.421 --> 00:04:52.280
And I thought to myself, if that was three bottles of vodka, and that could be a
82
00:04:54.060 --> 00:04:58.500
really big problem you know. Anyway. So I think it's, I think it's,
83
00:04:59.160 --> 00:05:01.830
it seems to, to involve this issue of harm.
84
00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:04.753
Well, I guess the,
85
00:05:04.880 --> 00:05:08.820
the sort of sense that the diagnostic category is used as impaired controller to
86
00:05:08.821 --> 00:05:13.190
use, which is usually indicated by persisting in using a drug when, you know,
87
00:05:13.320 --> 00:05:15.360
it's causing you harm as the liver has just indicated.
88
00:05:16.110 --> 00:05:18.510
I'd agree with John that there's not a crisp, clear,
89
00:05:18.511 --> 00:05:21.990
bright line that separates addictive drug use reminding to drug use.
90
00:05:22.370 --> 00:05:22.651
And in fact,
91
00:05:22.651 --> 00:05:25.980
a lot of the harm arising from drugs has nothing to do with addiction.
92
00:05:26.610 --> 00:05:30.960
Most of the harm arising from alcohol uses or rises from intoxication rather
93
00:05:30.961 --> 00:05:31.794
than addiction.
94
00:05:32.700 --> 00:05:36.720
Because that maybe leads us on to a good point,
95
00:05:36.721 --> 00:05:41.010
which may be the craving for apples might also bring up.
96
00:05:41.490 --> 00:05:44.850
So do you think then you've mentioned alcohol,
97
00:05:44.940 --> 00:05:47.760
other well-known addictive drugs, people think of is heroin.
98
00:05:47.790 --> 00:05:50.820
Nicotine is what at the top of the list is an addictive content,
99
00:05:51.570 --> 00:05:56.340
but is there some sort of difference or perhaps
100
00:05:56.341 --> 00:06:01.340
more in common between an addiction to a specific chemical and perhaps
101
00:06:01.430 --> 00:06:03.470
an addiction addictive sort of behaviors,
102
00:06:03.560 --> 00:06:06.920
it's something which comes perhaps intrinsically rather,
103
00:06:07.100 --> 00:06:11.150
rather than coming from the, from a external chemicals, something that we take.
104
00:06:11.151 --> 00:06:13.760
So is this something we should be thinking about when thinking about an
105
00:06:13.761 --> 00:06:14.960
addictive brain, [inaudable].
106
00:06:17.180 --> 00:06:21.680
Who wants to pick that up a happy, happy to have a go at that? I mean,
107
00:06:21.681 --> 00:06:23.000
clearly there's a lot of evidence,
108
00:06:23.001 --> 00:06:27.090
particularly from animal models suggesting that are brain processes that are
109
00:06:27.530 --> 00:06:31.220
essentially involved in various forms of addiction that most drugs of addiction
110
00:06:31.221 --> 00:06:32.054
act upon.
111
00:06:32.390 --> 00:06:35.630
And there's a fair amount of work suggesting that some behavioral forms of
112
00:06:35.631 --> 00:06:37.450
addiction particularly gambling, I guess,
113
00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:41.000
would be the paradigm example that a lot of the same brain structures are
114
00:06:41.001 --> 00:06:41.930
implicated there.
115
00:06:42.230 --> 00:06:45.980
And the ones that are involved in the rewarding effects of everyday activities
116
00:06:45.981 --> 00:06:48.590
like feeding and drinking and sex.
117
00:06:49.190 --> 00:06:53.390
So there certainly is a neurological basis for arguing that there might be some
118
00:06:53.391 --> 00:06:57.020
underlying similarities across different forms of addiction.
119
00:06:57.021 --> 00:06:58.970
And if you look at it in the jargon,
120
00:06:58.971 --> 00:07:03.380
co-morbidity the extent to which people with one form of addiction often have
121
00:07:04.220 --> 00:07:06.080
other forms of addictions that are gamblers.
122
00:07:06.170 --> 00:07:08.720
They're much more likely to be heavy smokers and drinkers,
123
00:07:09.230 --> 00:07:13.880
which is why the policy around restricting smoking and casino has had a big
124
00:07:13.881 --> 00:07:18.620
impact on the income of the people who operate a gambling
125
00:07:19.790 --> 00:07:20.623
premises.
126
00:07:22.040 --> 00:07:23.240
Any other comments there? Jon?
127
00:07:24.850 --> 00:07:25.750
From my perspective,
128
00:07:25.751 --> 00:07:30.520
I'm more coming from the neuro-biological side rather than the policy
129
00:07:30.521 --> 00:07:31.840
and the clinical side.
130
00:07:31.841 --> 00:07:36.490
And so I view the brain very much as a sort of organ that controls our
131
00:07:36.491 --> 00:07:37.210
behavior.
132
00:07:37.210 --> 00:07:41.230
And I would think about behaviors in terms of addiction and the animal research
133
00:07:41.231 --> 00:07:41.951
that you're talking about.
134
00:07:41.951 --> 00:07:45.210
It really does tap in all of the evidence is suggesting
135
00:07:47.230 --> 00:07:51.910
addictive processes and addictive drugs or, or gambling,
136
00:07:51.911 --> 00:07:54.760
whatever it is tapping into the same sorts of reward networks that are
137
00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:59.620
absolutely core to, to driving the sorts of behaviors that you know,
138
00:07:59.830 --> 00:08:03.850
and all the way through evolution down to tiny little rodents and things use the
139
00:08:03.851 --> 00:08:07.870
same fundamental sort of reward networks.
140
00:08:07.871 --> 00:08:09.700
So to me,
141
00:08:09.790 --> 00:08:13.750
the extent to which they're driving the sort of wanting craving behavior,
142
00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:18.970
isn't necessarily there for invoking that same network.
143
00:08:21.790 --> 00:08:26.710
I mean, I have to declare a bias and a skepticism about neuro biological
144
00:08:26.711 --> 00:08:27.640
explanations.
145
00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:32.980
Of course addictions are associated with our pleasure centers because the kinds
146
00:08:32.981 --> 00:08:37.750
of things that we do when we're addicted are things that are,
147
00:08:37.900 --> 00:08:40.930
that give us pleasure or used to give us pleasure or more,
148
00:08:40.990 --> 00:08:45.130
more importantly are ways of avoiding pine. So it's, it's, it's a kind of a,
149
00:08:45.160 --> 00:08:45.910
I think it's a,
150
00:08:45.910 --> 00:08:50.740
it's a fairly trivial connection to Mike between
151
00:08:51.010 --> 00:08:54.190
that that bit of our brain gets excited when we do those kinds of things.
152
00:08:54.460 --> 00:08:59.420
It's a, but I don't think it's an explanation by any means. I think we, we,
153
00:08:59.460 --> 00:09:03.720
we get attracted to the kinds of apparent
154
00:09:03.721 --> 00:09:08.310
explanations that come from the pretty pictures that neurobiologist generate
155
00:09:09.030 --> 00:09:12.690
because that cleaner and native and the kind of stuff that sociologists go on
156
00:09:12.691 --> 00:09:16.560
about. But I think any discussion of addiction that,
157
00:09:16.830 --> 00:09:20.580
that moves very far away from the sociological is getting into,
158
00:09:20.940 --> 00:09:24.720
is getting into really dangerous territory. I let it, I disagree with that.
159
00:09:24.820 --> 00:09:26.850
And then certainly been very skeptical and, and we've,
160
00:09:26.851 --> 00:09:31.350
we know like the social policies that would very substantially reduce the harm
161
00:09:31.351 --> 00:09:35.520
that alcohol causes. It's just a very powerful interest. The deposits, taxation,
162
00:09:35.610 --> 00:09:38.100
economics, 1 0 1, you make a commodity, more expensive,
163
00:09:38.340 --> 00:09:41.640
people can cheat and less of it. And we, you know,
164
00:09:41.641 --> 00:09:45.330
that's an argument we have because state governments are so dependent on the
165
00:09:45.331 --> 00:09:46.260
income from,
166
00:09:46.280 --> 00:09:51.090
from alcohol and gambling as the other classic example of conflict of interest
167
00:09:51.091 --> 00:09:54.480
that particularly state governments have over addictive commodities.
168
00:09:55.700 --> 00:09:59.600
So might just pursue this a little bit more because I think that's very
169
00:09:59.601 --> 00:10:02.930
important. I agree that those distinctions are really important.
170
00:10:04.310 --> 00:10:05.150
But the,
171
00:10:05.570 --> 00:10:10.160
you brought up the concept of reward that if you do
172
00:10:10.161 --> 00:10:12.770
something, you get something good for it. Yeah.
173
00:10:12.771 --> 00:10:16.610
It's probably worth doing it again. So, and with that happens all the time,
174
00:10:16.611 --> 00:10:17.990
that's maybe why people come back,
175
00:10:17.991 --> 00:10:20.540
hopefully from previous last fiscal of ideas to this one,
176
00:10:20.541 --> 00:10:22.640
it was pretty good last time if you come back again.
177
00:10:23.810 --> 00:10:26.210
So when does reward,
178
00:10:26.211 --> 00:10:29.180
which is generally a positive thing,
179
00:10:29.480 --> 00:10:32.300
perhaps not always mostly a good driver of behavior,
180
00:10:32.510 --> 00:10:34.790
when does that turn into an a into addiction?
181
00:10:35.030 --> 00:10:38.180
And when do you flip from something which is a positive,
182
00:10:38.181 --> 00:10:42.890
strong response to what you've done into something which
183
00:10:43.370 --> 00:10:45.890
maybe to the individual feels like a positive response,
184
00:10:45.920 --> 00:10:49.550
but then to everybody else can see, well, it's sexually tipped over the edge,
185
00:10:49.940 --> 00:10:52.130
someway, so Harris what's going on there.
186
00:10:52.190 --> 00:10:55.460
We've got from either behavioral point of view from a biological point of view
187
00:10:55.461 --> 00:10:56.294
from it.
188
00:10:58.550 --> 00:11:02.390
Oh, the behavioral point of view when it consumes all of people's attention and
189
00:11:02.391 --> 00:11:04.490
dominates their lives. And that's, you know,
190
00:11:04.520 --> 00:11:05.900
pretty much what we're talking about when,
191
00:11:05.930 --> 00:11:10.040
when people are unable to control their drug use and to the detriment of the
192
00:11:10.220 --> 00:11:14.930
quality of life so that their lives revolve around pursuing the pleasure or the,
193
00:11:15.500 --> 00:11:18.410
the sort of transient pleasure from himself administration of the drug.
194
00:11:19.020 --> 00:11:20.720
I guess that's the most extreme form of it,
195
00:11:20.750 --> 00:11:24.650
but all of us to various degrees engage in whatever,
196
00:11:24.651 --> 00:11:27.770
engage in repetitive behaviors that we enjoy as John was saying.
197
00:11:27.771 --> 00:11:32.690
So there's not a radical discontinuity between the ordinary pleasurable activity
198
00:11:32.691 --> 00:11:35.750
that we might overdue and and, and addiction.
199
00:11:35.751 --> 00:11:38.120
But I think the more extreme varieties of addiction,
200
00:11:38.510 --> 00:11:41.000
that's the sort of central characteristic.
201
00:11:42.010 --> 00:11:44.780
So psychologists or psychiatrists viewpoint. Well.
202
00:11:46.400 --> 00:11:48.980
So again, I don't know if you'll completely disagree with it.
203
00:11:49.220 --> 00:11:50.420
Maybe that would be a good thing,
204
00:11:50.421 --> 00:11:55.180
but certainly the sort animal literature and these types of things show that,
205
00:11:55.530 --> 00:11:58.780
that there's a clear link between dopamine, which was one of the,
206
00:11:58.790 --> 00:11:59.950
the main nutrient,
207
00:12:00.190 --> 00:12:03.850
one of the main chemicals that is constantly floating around the brain.
208
00:12:03.851 --> 00:12:06.640
And it's not a random process.
209
00:12:06.641 --> 00:12:09.850
There are things that we're people are regularly addicted to.
210
00:12:09.851 --> 00:12:12.400
So it's not just things that we liked doing know,
211
00:12:12.401 --> 00:12:16.300
I really enjoy reading those horrifically bad gossip magazines,
212
00:12:16.810 --> 00:12:21.160
but it's not an addiction, you know? And this,
213
00:12:21.370 --> 00:12:25.810
this idea that's been certainly put across in a lot of the scientific
214
00:12:25.811 --> 00:12:26.261
literature,
215
00:12:26.261 --> 00:12:30.610
that one of the problems with addictive compounds and addictive processes is
216
00:12:30.611 --> 00:12:34.450
that unlike when you eat an apple,
217
00:12:34.930 --> 00:12:39.640
the way the brain sort of deals with that is it's, if it's a positive thing,
218
00:12:39.670 --> 00:12:42.790
you get a bit of dopamine released and it's like, that's a positive thing. Hey,
219
00:12:42.791 --> 00:12:46.060
that's great. But actually the way the brain codes,
220
00:12:46.061 --> 00:12:49.540
these types of rewards is once you've had your app, when you know that, oh,
221
00:12:49.550 --> 00:12:51.190
that's a sweet thing, and that's a good thing.
222
00:12:51.700 --> 00:12:56.590
The brain then starts coding things in terms of as expected. So at that point,
223
00:12:56.980 --> 00:12:59.440
you've got, you know, when you eat your next step,
224
00:12:59.470 --> 00:13:01.780
if you actually not getting the same release of dopamine,
225
00:13:01.900 --> 00:13:04.930
cause your brain is expecting that. Whereas when you take drugs, that,
226
00:13:05.230 --> 00:13:08.920
that really, that, that directly trigger dopamine release,
227
00:13:09.310 --> 00:13:11.920
you end up with every single time you take the drug,
228
00:13:11.921 --> 00:13:16.090
your brain's getting a signal that was better than expected every single time,
229
00:13:16.091 --> 00:13:20.740
it was better than expected. So to me, you know, as I said,
230
00:13:20.741 --> 00:13:24.760
this is my background is very much just almost sort of the textbook side of
231
00:13:24.761 --> 00:13:28.480
things and the animal literature that really says there is a distinction between
232
00:13:29.470 --> 00:13:31.320
behaviors that are just positive and, you know,
233
00:13:31.321 --> 00:13:35.030
you still enjoy eating your apples and whatever, but they don't trigger that,
234
00:13:35.031 --> 00:13:39.230
that sort of hijacking of the reward system. That seems to be quite important.
235
00:13:39.630 --> 00:13:41.040
In addiction, you...
236
00:13:41.040 --> 00:13:43.410
Don't think, you don't think that could be a matter of degree that, you know,
237
00:13:43.411 --> 00:13:47.070
there are certain chemicals that do that really effectively efficient and
238
00:13:47.700 --> 00:13:50.970
efficiently. But for me, there's no reason why, you know,
239
00:13:51.150 --> 00:13:54.840
I don't think that reading trashy magazines,
240
00:13:54.841 --> 00:13:56.790
isn't the kind of thing you can be addicted to.
241
00:13:56.791 --> 00:13:59.550
I could imagine that that could become an addiction.
242
00:13:59.551 --> 00:14:02.340
It could become destructive. It could become, you know,
243
00:14:02.520 --> 00:14:06.300
completely occupying of your time. It's, it's not going to be as potent.
244
00:14:06.330 --> 00:14:11.190
It's not as risky as you know, particular drugs are, but, but count,
245
00:14:11.250 --> 00:14:11.610
you know,
246
00:14:11.610 --> 00:14:14.910
is it possible to demonstrate that that's something that's qualitatively
247
00:14:14.911 --> 00:14:15.744
different from?
248
00:14:17.160 --> 00:14:21.510
The one example off the top of my head that comes to mind is the
249
00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:24.930
research experience I've had is with hallucinogenic drugs.
250
00:14:25.290 --> 00:14:26.280
And there's certainly....
251
00:14:30.930 --> 00:14:31.111
Not since you were pregnant .
252
00:14:31.111 --> 00:14:31.591
No no. And it's all research you know.
253
00:14:31.591 --> 00:14:32.424
Animals take it.
254
00:14:35.940 --> 00:14:39.270
It was cute. Swiss Swiss College students were doing the study.
255
00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:40.860
But certainly if you,
256
00:14:40.980 --> 00:14:45.840
if you get into that sort of community is a huge
257
00:14:45.870 --> 00:14:48.660
sort of pop culture community, where people are very outspoken about
258
00:14:50.430 --> 00:14:54.080
where we should take or whatever the Timothy Leary's of this world,
259
00:14:54.140 --> 00:14:57.590
the thought that everyone is better off with creative experiences, whatever.
260
00:14:58.970 --> 00:15:02.000
But, but hallucinogenic drugs are incredibly non-addictive,
261
00:15:02.210 --> 00:15:05.810
they're really not addictive and people, even those that,
262
00:15:05.920 --> 00:15:10.070
that swear by them, I'm going to clarify. I'm not one of those people,
263
00:15:10.071 --> 00:15:14.060
but they, they describe it. One,
264
00:15:14.061 --> 00:15:18.690
one of the best ways I heard describing it was if someone said, okay, you've,
265
00:15:18.920 --> 00:15:22.940
you've just gone on a trip to India for six months, backpack around the place.
266
00:15:22.941 --> 00:15:26.390
And if you got back on the home at the airport,
267
00:15:26.391 --> 00:15:28.610
if someone handed you back a ticket to India,
268
00:15:28.970 --> 00:15:31.370
you probably wouldn't want to take it. You'd want to re you know,
269
00:15:31.371 --> 00:15:34.880
you want to have a bit of a holiday. You need to rest after you sort of trip.
270
00:15:34.990 --> 00:15:38.330
And whilst they sort of value the experience on the drugs, they,
271
00:15:38.570 --> 00:15:41.360
the reason recovery period, the last thing they want to do is take it again.
272
00:15:41.510 --> 00:15:44.990
You know, they, they will in the future, take it again, whereas very,
273
00:15:44.991 --> 00:15:49.670
very different types of behavior to cocaine or whatever yet, you know,
274
00:15:50.090 --> 00:15:54.740
people have destroyed reputations and careers on the basis of trying to say that
275
00:15:54.741 --> 00:15:57.260
these types of drugs are positive and that everyone should be taking them,
276
00:15:57.261 --> 00:15:59.000
that sort of thing. So to me, there is a difference.
277
00:16:00.170 --> 00:16:01.600
I suppose, one might have just,
278
00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:06.190
just looking at that from a cellular molecular background,
279
00:16:06.191 --> 00:16:10.960
more than an all, then I'll be hireable background. And when you look at the,
280
00:16:11.020 --> 00:16:12.250
how the, some of these drugs works,
281
00:16:12.670 --> 00:16:17.650
you're referring to that some of the classic addictive drugs like opiates and
282
00:16:17.651 --> 00:16:21.460
nicotine Rudo changed the behavior of the, of the nerve cells that they,
283
00:16:21.620 --> 00:16:23.320
that they, that they target in ways,
284
00:16:23.321 --> 00:16:26.350
which are perhaps different from some of the types of chemicals.
285
00:16:26.740 --> 00:16:30.880
That's not black and white either. That's absolutely. Absolutely. So
286
00:16:32.770 --> 00:16:35.380
again, comes back to the question of degree and hair.
287
00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:39.790
How do we deal with it as a people with addictive behaviors as a
288
00:16:39.791 --> 00:16:41.770
community? When,
289
00:16:42.250 --> 00:16:46.000
if someone has what people would normally say as a habit,
290
00:16:46.001 --> 00:16:50.080
as addictive habit to the heroin IP or something like that, perhaps alcohol,
291
00:16:50.470 --> 00:16:55.080
nicotine, and we talked right at the start, the notion of,
292
00:16:55.081 --> 00:16:58.090
of harm. And I mean, it's becomes a, a habit or an addiction.
293
00:16:58.091 --> 00:17:01.600
It's the harm stats about why the benefits, perhaps in some sense,
294
00:17:02.530 --> 00:17:06.820
and in the most simple day-to-day explanation example is, is smoking.
295
00:17:06.821 --> 00:17:10.930
I want to give up, I want to give up, but I can't. Is that the drug doing that?
296
00:17:11.830 --> 00:17:13.810
Or is it your lack of willpower?
297
00:17:18.070 --> 00:17:20.640
Okay. One, once we get that, that's the clearest walking foot, is,
298
00:17:20.641 --> 00:17:23.020
is it the pharmacology or is it the behind.
299
00:17:25.030 --> 00:17:28.450
Pharmacology? Because you saw people like out out of the physical addiction,
300
00:17:28.690 --> 00:17:31.690
but that's still stuck. I still cry. I still use the drug.
301
00:17:31.710 --> 00:17:35.710
So one thing we know for sure, isn't, it's not just physical addictions,
302
00:17:36.430 --> 00:17:37.600
it's clearly both. I mean,
303
00:17:37.601 --> 00:17:41.080
there are some individuals who are much more likely to develop this person of
304
00:17:41.081 --> 00:17:43.660
use, and there are some drugs that are much more likely to produce it.
305
00:17:44.140 --> 00:17:44.980
As we've said,
306
00:17:45.490 --> 00:17:50.010
in drugs that are smoked or injected than have rapid onset of effects and the
307
00:17:50.011 --> 00:17:54.300
short lasting, a particularly likely to establish a pattern of regular use.
308
00:17:54.690 --> 00:17:58.110
And I think the most interesting example that points to the effects of drugs,
309
00:17:58.500 --> 00:18:02.790
rather than the characteristics of individuals the phenomenon that's been
310
00:18:02.791 --> 00:18:04.740
observed in PAC Parkinson's patients,
311
00:18:05.190 --> 00:18:09.480
patients with a neurological disease who are treated with a dopamine replacement
312
00:18:09.510 --> 00:18:13.250
therapy, typically Levadopa and,
313
00:18:13.251 --> 00:18:17.460
and more recently dopamine agonist drugs that produce similar effects to
314
00:18:17.910 --> 00:18:18.743
cocaine,
315
00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:22.830
but a substantial minority of patients treated with those drugs develop other
316
00:18:22.831 --> 00:18:25.920
addictive patterns of use of these therapeutic medicines,
317
00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:31.200
particularly live it over, or they develop compulsive patterns of behavior.
318
00:18:32.070 --> 00:18:35.280
And we know that these are connected to the dragon because these,
319
00:18:35.760 --> 00:18:39.660
these effects come on in people without any prior history, they come on when,
320
00:18:39.661 --> 00:18:42.900
when drugs are given, they disappear when people cease.
321
00:18:43.020 --> 00:18:45.300
So I think there clearly is something about the pharmacology.
322
00:18:45.810 --> 00:18:49.020
And I I'd agree with John, it's not the whole story by any means.
323
00:18:49.500 --> 00:18:53.430
There's a lot about individual susceptibility to the effects of drugs that make
324
00:18:53.431 --> 00:18:56.880
some people more vulnerable to developing patterns of addiction,
325
00:18:56.881 --> 00:18:58.680
if they're exposed to particular drugs.
326
00:19:00.890 --> 00:19:03.140
Okay. So then you've raised the,
327
00:19:03.590 --> 00:19:06.650
it's come up quite a few times about examples of,
328
00:19:07.130 --> 00:19:10.760
of if you like the addictive behavior,
329
00:19:11.180 --> 00:19:13.430
which isn't necessarily dragon juice.
330
00:19:13.460 --> 00:19:15.830
Gambling has been the examples it's come up a couple of times.
331
00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:21.350
So how would you various top practitioners in the
332
00:19:21.351 --> 00:19:25.670
field consider obsessive behavior?
333
00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:28.670
So like in the extreme form, assistive compulsive disorder,
334
00:19:28.671 --> 00:19:32.240
which is a diagnostic cartoon, less than some books.
335
00:19:33.470 --> 00:19:37.790
But then is that the same sort of addiction that we're talking about with
336
00:19:38.450 --> 00:19:41.390
with the compelling urge to have another cigarette?
337
00:19:41.660 --> 00:19:43.040
Or is that something different with,
338
00:19:43.100 --> 00:19:46.310
you've mentioned that there's some neurochemical linked deep down in here that
339
00:19:46.311 --> 00:19:48.230
those sorts of behaviors might be generated,
340
00:19:48.860 --> 00:19:52.970
but lots of people don't have take leave diver and most people don't.
341
00:19:54.050 --> 00:19:57.800
And yet people have less, some people develop those,
342
00:19:57.801 --> 00:20:00.170
those compulsive behavior disorders as a,
343
00:20:01.430 --> 00:20:03.350
they in many respects looking from the outside,
344
00:20:03.351 --> 00:20:07.910
they have many of the properties of an addiction instance of the impossibility
345
00:20:07.911 --> 00:20:09.470
of where parent impossibility,
346
00:20:09.530 --> 00:20:13.010
the difficulty of turning off that sort of behavior turning off the desire with
347
00:20:13.160 --> 00:20:13.970
that's the same as craving.
348
00:20:13.970 --> 00:20:17.060
I don't know the impetus to generate those behaviors. So how did you,
349
00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:20.600
how'd you work through something like obsessive compulsive disorders in this
350
00:20:21.830 --> 00:20:22.663
fill out this, the client.
351
00:20:23.330 --> 00:20:27.920
To, yeah, I never Made the connection between perhaps it's obvious,
352
00:20:27.921 --> 00:20:31.640
but I hadn't really thought about connecting that to, to addictive behavior
353
00:20:34.670 --> 00:20:39.260
plausible isn't out that, and it's kind of,
354
00:20:40.550 --> 00:20:40.940
you know, if you,
355
00:20:40.940 --> 00:20:45.890
if you think about the idea that the concept of addiction is
356
00:20:46.550 --> 00:20:49.780
just a kind of vary something with very rough boundaries, then,
357
00:20:49.790 --> 00:20:53.050
then there are probably ways in which it's helpful to think about obsessive
358
00:20:53.051 --> 00:20:55.900
compulsive behavior as addictive behavior and otherwise in which it's,
359
00:20:56.450 --> 00:20:57.610
it's not helpful to him.
360
00:20:59.340 --> 00:21:01.170
Just as a my own question.
361
00:21:01.830 --> 00:21:05.490
In terms of the clinical representative sort of presentation of people with
362
00:21:05.550 --> 00:21:09.120
obsessive compulsive disorder, do they normally behave in more,
363
00:21:09.121 --> 00:21:13.050
a kind of positive seeking behaviors or is it more
364
00:21:13.740 --> 00:21:16.260
avoiding negative for the stories?
365
00:21:16.261 --> 00:21:19.740
I hear you hear more about that because I have to lock the door for 150 times
366
00:21:19.741 --> 00:21:20.341
before I go out,
367
00:21:20.341 --> 00:21:23.880
because I'm have these fears and it seems to be quite fear-driven. Yeah.
368
00:21:24.270 --> 00:21:25.380
Is that, is that the question?
369
00:21:25.770 --> 00:21:28.050
Yeah, I think, I mean, I think that's a good point, but you know,
370
00:21:28.350 --> 00:21:32.010
classically you are avoiding something, whereas with addiction,
371
00:21:32.011 --> 00:21:35.190
you're seeking something. Of course, you know,
372
00:21:35.670 --> 00:21:40.260
it's one of my pet hates is, is people who,
373
00:21:40.410 --> 00:21:44.970
who talk about rewards and consequences rather than rewards and punishments.
374
00:21:45.390 --> 00:21:46.223
And, you know,
375
00:21:46.470 --> 00:21:49.290
a reward is the absence of a punishment of punishment is the absence of a
376
00:21:49.291 --> 00:21:50.124
reward.
377
00:21:50.370 --> 00:21:54.330
And so if we're talking about avoidance and seeking where we're really
378
00:21:54.690 --> 00:21:59.400
perhaps talking about the same thing from a different perspective, well,
379
00:21:59.401 --> 00:22:03.210
certainly there's some parts of addictive behavior that's driven by avoidance of
380
00:22:03.211 --> 00:22:07.860
withdrawal symptoms and depression and anxious states. So it's, it's a,
381
00:22:07.880 --> 00:22:08.730
as John said,
382
00:22:08.731 --> 00:22:13.200
it's not a wholly implausible idea that there might be some similarities in the,
383
00:22:13.201 --> 00:22:16.920
the underlying biology of, of those sorts of states. But I mean,
384
00:22:16.930 --> 00:22:19.080
it's an argument, it's an area that people argue about.
385
00:22:20.130 --> 00:22:21.060
Okay, that's really exciting.
386
00:22:21.420 --> 00:22:26.220
I might just now flip the coin a little bit and
387
00:22:26.280 --> 00:22:27.240
we defined,
388
00:22:27.780 --> 00:22:31.050
or one of the definitions came up with this in the first question is addictive.
389
00:22:31.051 --> 00:22:35.100
Behavior is something which is probably in the end, not that good for you.
390
00:22:35.910 --> 00:22:40.350
There's some, some notion of harm associated with the value we put on that,
391
00:22:40.560 --> 00:22:41.393
some terminology,
392
00:22:42.030 --> 00:22:46.710
but the other other word that we use commonly in talking about people
393
00:22:47.250 --> 00:22:50.460
have, have some sort of SyFy chemical addiction talk about them having a habit
394
00:22:51.870 --> 00:22:53.640
yet we're all creatures of habit.
395
00:22:55.050 --> 00:22:59.850
And we do all sorts of things without really thinking about it
396
00:22:59.851 --> 00:23:01.980
because we've done them over and over and over again,
397
00:23:01.981 --> 00:23:06.150
the well-rehearsed railway Hearst behaviors that we have.
398
00:23:07.080 --> 00:23:10.830
And so you could argue from a biological point of view,
399
00:23:11.490 --> 00:23:16.200
that habit forming is actually pretty good thing and it's takes a huge
400
00:23:16.230 --> 00:23:20.520
cognitive load office. So we can, when we're driving home from here today,
401
00:23:20.670 --> 00:23:24.690
we can think about the brain and habits rather than worrying too much exactly
402
00:23:24.691 --> 00:23:28.650
where the clutch and the accelerator and the brake pedals are on your car and
403
00:23:28.651 --> 00:23:30.690
where you have to turn right or left as long as, you know,
404
00:23:30.691 --> 00:23:32.460
the way more or less home.
405
00:23:34.170 --> 00:23:39.120
So habits aren't necessarily bad and getting into good habits is something
406
00:23:39.500 --> 00:23:42.570
that our whole education system is predicated onto list to some degree.
407
00:23:43.140 --> 00:23:47.330
So again, it's another of degree,
408
00:23:47.360 --> 00:23:49.160
borderlines gray areas.
409
00:23:50.330 --> 00:23:53.240
How do you define a good habit from a bad habit?
410
00:23:54.470 --> 00:23:55.400
What's the difference.
411
00:24:00.590 --> 00:24:02.450
If there's, if I can make a distinction,
412
00:24:02.451 --> 00:24:06.440
I think it would be based on context that I habits habits appropriate to the
413
00:24:06.441 --> 00:24:10.580
context. It might, might not be the best adaptation to the,
414
00:24:10.670 --> 00:24:15.530
to the situation, but it is at least adaptive to what is being
415
00:24:16.820 --> 00:24:18.230
demanded by the environment.
416
00:24:18.260 --> 00:24:22.790
Whereas addiction is kind of driven by whatever's driving the
417
00:24:22.791 --> 00:24:25.070
addiction independent of whether you're, you know,
418
00:24:25.430 --> 00:24:28.910
going for a walk or at work or,
419
00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:30.710
or whatever the circumstances that.
420
00:24:33.350 --> 00:24:34.183
You know you're going to go.
421
00:24:34.810 --> 00:24:38.770
My comment was going to be a little bit tangential to your example,
422
00:24:38.771 --> 00:24:39.820
in terms of the,
423
00:24:39.880 --> 00:24:44.830
I don't have a clear sort of thought about when a habit becomes an
424
00:24:44.831 --> 00:24:45.490
addiction,
425
00:24:45.490 --> 00:24:49.900
but your comment about the example of driving in sort of can do it
426
00:24:49.901 --> 00:24:51.790
unconsciously and these types of things.
427
00:24:52.090 --> 00:24:55.180
One thing that I've personally found quite interesting in terms of the
428
00:24:55.330 --> 00:24:59.920
discussions about addiction and these types of behaviors is actually, if you,
429
00:24:59.950 --> 00:25:03.690
if you look at the literature in terms of just healthy human behavior,
430
00:25:04.330 --> 00:25:08.620
quite separate to addiction, you'd look at things like free will. It's quite,
431
00:25:08.621 --> 00:25:11.820
to me, it's astonishing how little access we have into our own behavior.
432
00:25:12.010 --> 00:25:16.690
There's a lot of evidence to say that the healthy human brain sort of acts
433
00:25:16.691 --> 00:25:20.380
first and then adds the sort of freewill perception afterwards.
434
00:25:20.381 --> 00:25:24.700
And one of the most unbelievably sort of striking examples of this that I've
435
00:25:24.701 --> 00:25:28.690
ever come across an experiment called choice blindness and
436
00:25:30.190 --> 00:25:34.390
group out in California did the initial studies. And basically they,
437
00:25:34.391 --> 00:25:39.100
they gave that they had girls in males and females college students.
438
00:25:39.101 --> 00:25:39.934
But for example,
439
00:25:40.140 --> 00:25:44.350
they showed a man two pictures of two women that look completely different.
440
00:25:44.351 --> 00:25:47.620
One blonde hair, one dark hair, whatever. And they'd say, pick which one,
441
00:25:47.621 --> 00:25:48.580
you find more attractive,
442
00:25:48.940 --> 00:25:53.320
and then they'd do this card trick where they give back the person that they
443
00:25:53.700 --> 00:25:56.470
posted that they didn't choose so that the loser they're handed back.
444
00:25:56.471 --> 00:25:59.950
And they had to explain, okay, now just explain why you chose that person.
445
00:26:00.460 --> 00:26:03.430
And there's something like, I mean, I forget the exact numbers,
446
00:26:03.431 --> 00:26:05.770
but only about 10% picked up, but it was the wrong person.
447
00:26:05.771 --> 00:26:09.940
And they would just confabulate for 10 minutes talking about, well, I really,
448
00:26:10.030 --> 00:26:11.380
I really liked one head ladies,
449
00:26:11.381 --> 00:26:13.180
even though they actually chose the brand head one,
450
00:26:13.181 --> 00:26:17.650
they often actually picked up on the features that were the features the most on
451
00:26:17.651 --> 00:26:18.281
the features and what,
452
00:26:18.281 --> 00:26:23.140
so they really had very little insight into their own choices
453
00:26:23.141 --> 00:26:24.940
yet. They just believed the fact though,
454
00:26:24.941 --> 00:26:28.000
confronted that the card trick was convincing enough. They're like, Hey, yeah.
455
00:26:28.240 --> 00:26:32.530
So, so there is a lot of evidence such as suggest that sort of act and then
456
00:26:32.860 --> 00:26:36.010
presume that we were doing things for the, for these reasons.
457
00:26:36.011 --> 00:26:38.740
And so the same types of,
458
00:26:38.800 --> 00:26:43.650
it's easy to understand how you can then have someone that's in the one saying,
459
00:26:43.860 --> 00:26:47.580
I really, I don't want to smoke another cigarette.
460
00:26:47.610 --> 00:26:51.010
I have wine I'll be. And then when they do,
461
00:26:51.030 --> 00:26:55.560
or I remember hearing Brendan for Vola interviewed on there
462
00:26:55.950 --> 00:26:58.620
on the TV the other day, and he was in the interview,
463
00:26:58.890 --> 00:27:02.460
explaining how he'd stopped drinking and stopped gambling. And so they said,
464
00:27:02.461 --> 00:27:04.470
so you don't, you're not drinking gambling anymore. Oh, well,
465
00:27:04.471 --> 00:27:07.700
I drink with my friends and I regularly and,
466
00:27:07.980 --> 00:27:11.430
and I'm gambling on the pokies and the D but not the horses or something like
467
00:27:11.431 --> 00:27:14.790
that. And I just thought, you know, how, how we can
468
00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:19.230
sort of rationalize after an event,
469
00:27:19.260 --> 00:27:23.940
but that's actually in an addictive situation that seems quite sort of
470
00:27:23.970 --> 00:27:26.520
extreme, but actually if you do the right tricks,
471
00:27:26.521 --> 00:27:29.700
a healthy human being a non-addictive person will behave in the same way.
472
00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:31.191
I agree. I mean,
473
00:27:31.191 --> 00:27:34.300
I think that that reset sort of body of research that you're talking about as
474
00:27:34.301 --> 00:27:38.330
some of the most important to the work that I do, but that's around, you know,
475
00:27:39.220 --> 00:27:42.410
and the message really is the last person should ask about why they do things is
476
00:27:42.411 --> 00:27:43.370
the person who's doing them.
477
00:27:48.500 --> 00:27:52.220
So why and why do you do what you do? Well,
478
00:27:52.630 --> 00:27:54.350
it's got a lot to do with history and accident,
479
00:27:54.860 --> 00:27:57.530
what you found rewarding in the past and what people were prepared to pay you to
480
00:27:57.531 --> 00:27:59.780
do well.
481
00:28:02.650 --> 00:28:05.120
I've phrased that question in, in the con,
482
00:28:05.330 --> 00:28:08.360
partly in the context of education this morning session this morning,
483
00:28:08.361 --> 00:28:10.070
somebody might've met with Martin Westworld,
484
00:28:10.520 --> 00:28:13.460
he was talking about education for the future and future-proofing
485
00:28:15.080 --> 00:28:15.770
a children.
486
00:28:15.770 --> 00:28:20.420
And one of the points he he finished up
487
00:28:20.421 --> 00:28:25.070
with is learning self control and
488
00:28:25.071 --> 00:28:25.904
flexibility.
489
00:28:26.060 --> 00:28:30.290
That combination is as a way of being able to cope with a changing,
490
00:28:30.410 --> 00:28:33.590
flexible, unpredictable environment,
491
00:28:33.591 --> 00:28:37.490
as opposed to being straitjacket into, into habits,
492
00:28:37.520 --> 00:28:41.570
which Alyssa adaptable, I suppose, to the unpredictability of the,
493
00:28:41.630 --> 00:28:44.570
of the world that the, that the kids are going into, I thought, well,
494
00:28:44.571 --> 00:28:48.050
that's sort of in a way as a microcosm, a special example of perhaps what we,
495
00:28:48.230 --> 00:28:49.063
what we're talking about.
496
00:28:49.460 --> 00:28:53.660
So then having said that here,
497
00:28:54.350 --> 00:28:56.960
Brian's a bit Warby. Even at the best of times,
498
00:28:57.290 --> 00:29:02.180
we're not actually that good at knowing what we're doing until after we've
499
00:29:02.181 --> 00:29:05.420
done it. And so we learned all these things,
500
00:29:05.421 --> 00:29:10.370
which sort of by trial and error and some good education
501
00:29:10.371 --> 00:29:14.960
and gets us through the world with increasing efficiency and with increasing
502
00:29:15.230 --> 00:29:16.063
knowledge of what we're doing.
503
00:29:16.940 --> 00:29:19.790
Sometimes it goes wrong and drugs and throw us off the track.
504
00:29:22.310 --> 00:29:25.100
What if there's a drug, which might just the good stuff work.
505
00:29:26.330 --> 00:29:29.660
So it's only made good habits is first of all,
506
00:29:29.810 --> 00:29:31.570
it's such a thing actually feasible. Is,
507
00:29:31.700 --> 00:29:35.330
is this something that is something just for science fiction writers and to
508
00:29:35.360 --> 00:29:39.980
think about is, is there more pharmacology to be discovered,
509
00:29:40.040 --> 00:29:43.180
do you think, in, of, of drugs, which,
510
00:29:43.540 --> 00:29:48.400
which might be able to improve the generation of good habits versus bad habits?
511
00:29:48.401 --> 00:29:51.370
Is it, is that even a concept we should be fastening events.
512
00:29:51.570 --> 00:29:53.410
It's just a lot of rubbish and get on with it and do something else.
513
00:29:53.470 --> 00:29:55.330
Well, this is not a new idea. I mean, we, it,
514
00:29:55.450 --> 00:29:58.840
it goes by the name of cognitive enhancement and your enhancement now,
515
00:29:59.290 --> 00:30:01.960
but it's been the research program of the pharmaceutical industry for over a
516
00:30:01.961 --> 00:30:02.794
century.
517
00:30:03.290 --> 00:30:07.150
And when people discovered the addictive effects of of heroin or morphine,
518
00:30:07.151 --> 00:30:12.100
originally there were attempts to develop synthetic varieties or,
519
00:30:12.670 --> 00:30:17.200
or modify those agents in ways that would make them less addictive within the
520
00:30:17.201 --> 00:30:19.510
same with stimulant drugs and the pursuit of drugs that would,
521
00:30:20.110 --> 00:30:24.160
would improve currently performance without producing addiction or other adverse
522
00:30:24.161 --> 00:30:24.970
events.
523
00:30:24.970 --> 00:30:29.440
I'm sure we can reduce the severity of adverse effects that you know,
524
00:30:29.441 --> 00:30:32.140
the idea that we're going to have a drug that would be a hundred percent
525
00:30:32.141 --> 00:30:33.460
effective and a hundred percent safe,
526
00:30:33.461 --> 00:30:38.230
how would we ever know that a drug was a hundred percent safe except by
527
00:30:38.231 --> 00:30:39.190
letting it out there,
528
00:30:39.550 --> 00:30:44.050
which is what we do now and monitoring what happens in discover the adverse
529
00:30:44.051 --> 00:30:47.290
effects after the event, which is what we do with pharmaceuticals now.
530
00:30:48.100 --> 00:30:49.360
So if you're talking more about this tomorrow.
531
00:30:51.160 --> 00:30:55.100
In the context of this session, I'd, to me, necessarily,
532
00:30:55.630 --> 00:30:58.770
if the drugs are addictive, then that's a negative consequence.
533
00:30:58.771 --> 00:31:03.570
So I, I mean, maybe you got to, to me, you've,
534
00:31:03.610 --> 00:31:08.160
you know, whether as soon as the drug or the behavior becomes an addiction,
535
00:31:08.161 --> 00:31:12.300
then it is, is flipped over that, that side. You know, you,
536
00:31:13.110 --> 00:31:15.810
I don't, I don't know if you consider things like exercise addiction,
537
00:31:16.200 --> 00:31:18.530
a real phenomenon, I don't know,
538
00:31:18.690 --> 00:31:22.890
but you read about these things on the internet and clearly exercise is great,
539
00:31:22.891 --> 00:31:26.190
but at some point, if at any point it's being called an addiction,
540
00:31:26.191 --> 00:31:30.300
it's been called an addiction because it's now having negative consequences.
541
00:31:30.301 --> 00:31:32.430
So I don't know if you have a different, a bit.
542
00:31:32.431 --> 00:31:36.090
So I completely agree with the idea of cognitive enhances and non-addictive
543
00:31:36.091 --> 00:31:40.260
agents being beneficial. But in my mind, if it's addictive,
544
00:31:40.290 --> 00:31:41.610
then it's probably harmful.
545
00:31:41.611 --> 00:31:45.330
But I don't know if you think you can have an addictive compound and addictive
546
00:31:45.331 --> 00:31:46.164
process that,
547
00:31:46.760 --> 00:31:51.630
that you can manage sort of an infant and live a
548
00:31:51.631 --> 00:31:52.800
happy life. Mm.
549
00:31:53.550 --> 00:31:57.420
Cause we've got heaps of performance enhancing drugs around the work, alcohol,
550
00:31:58.170 --> 00:31:59.220
stimulants, coffee,
551
00:31:59.221 --> 00:32:02.730
all those kinds of things work to enhance performance in various ways,
552
00:32:02.731 --> 00:32:07.170
whether always directly through their chemical effects or otherwise the whole
553
00:32:07.171 --> 00:32:08.004
package,
554
00:32:08.310 --> 00:32:13.260
but we haven't run across too many that are harm us in the process. And
555
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:17.040
yeah, and most drugs that come onto the market,
556
00:32:17.041 --> 00:32:20.040
whether they're psychological drugs or physical drugs,
557
00:32:20.340 --> 00:32:22.890
when they come onto the market, we often think that they're harmless,
558
00:32:22.891 --> 00:32:26.910
but as time goes on, we usually find out that they're not.
559
00:32:27.180 --> 00:32:28.680
So, you know,
560
00:32:28.681 --> 00:32:32.100
your best guess would have to be that the pack future's going to be a bit like
561
00:32:32.101 --> 00:32:34.220
the past. But,
562
00:32:34.221 --> 00:32:37.770
but I don't think in principle there's any reason why we shouldn't discover a
563
00:32:38.040 --> 00:32:42.050
performance enhancing that's relatively harmless, but we just haven't yet.
564
00:32:42.550 --> 00:32:47.200
Do you think you can have an addictive compound positive addiction? Well,
565
00:32:47.201 --> 00:32:49.000
we probably, yeah, I guess that.
566
00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:50.580
Comes back to the language, doesn't it?
567
00:32:50.600 --> 00:32:53.290
Because would we call it an addiction if it was purely positive?
568
00:32:55.840 --> 00:32:57.940
You know, it's been, I mean, it depends from whose point of view.
569
00:32:57.941 --> 00:33:00.250
I suppose some people who are exercise,
570
00:33:00.280 --> 00:33:04.480
do huge amounts of exercise for their experience of it is purely positive.
571
00:33:04.510 --> 00:33:06.940
Maybe for other people it's really irritating and annoying. So.
572
00:33:13.120 --> 00:33:18.080
I suppose one thing would come back to is perhaps almost my
573
00:33:18.360 --> 00:33:23.170
spectrum where we started is the social framework within which we view
574
00:33:24.100 --> 00:33:26.380
what we normally think of it, of addictive drugs and,
575
00:33:26.650 --> 00:33:30.700
and perhaps a different behavior or compulsive behavior associated with those
576
00:33:30.701 --> 00:33:35.530
drugs. And the one of the questions,
577
00:33:35.590 --> 00:33:38.530
which again, maybe why not talk about the session tomorrow is,
578
00:33:38.980 --> 00:33:42.600
is that legality or otherwise of, of,
579
00:33:42.760 --> 00:33:47.650
of those sorts of compounds given that they're there already given that
580
00:33:48.190 --> 00:33:51.910
lot's known about all of nearly all of the drugs in terms of both from the
581
00:33:51.911 --> 00:33:54.520
molecular level, for their behavioral consequences, it's pretty well known.
582
00:33:55.120 --> 00:33:57.430
I personally, it's not going to meet a new drugs. That's going to be discovered,
583
00:33:57.431 --> 00:34:00.400
but given the set we've got already enough, given us enough problems
584
00:34:04.120 --> 00:34:06.160
how, what difference, what Mike,
585
00:34:06.790 --> 00:34:10.890
do you think if all these things out here work Lee or uncontrolled in Samsung,
586
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:12.040
if we've already got examples of,
587
00:34:12.220 --> 00:34:16.080
of alcohol and caffeine at one extreme at a mild level,
588
00:34:16.180 --> 00:34:21.070
alcohol and nicotine to various degrees in different changes
589
00:34:21.071 --> 00:34:23.980
with Citi probably, but things like you know,
590
00:34:23.981 --> 00:34:27.490
cocaine and heroin and fair domains and their relations,
591
00:34:27.491 --> 00:34:30.670
which are sort of halfway house in terms of chemical addiction. I mean,
592
00:34:31.210 --> 00:34:35.050
what difference would it make to the way we think about a person with a habit,
593
00:34:35.080 --> 00:34:36.880
if that suffers a loop was legal?
594
00:34:39.130 --> 00:34:39.490
Well,
595
00:34:39.490 --> 00:34:43.120
I think the first question to answer is what would happen if they were legal.
596
00:34:43.121 --> 00:34:46.300
And that's, that's obviously a difficult question to answer,
597
00:34:46.420 --> 00:34:49.090
but I guess what we know about alcohol and tobacco,
598
00:34:49.570 --> 00:34:53.860
my climate is a drug policy analyst in the U S as you have a informing drug
599
00:34:53.890 --> 00:34:56.380
policy over choice of mix of problems,
600
00:34:56.381 --> 00:35:00.400
arising from drug use itself or problems arising from attempting to control.
601
00:35:01.210 --> 00:35:01.900
And I mean,
602
00:35:01.900 --> 00:35:05.710
there are advantages in legalizing a drug in that you can introduce quality
603
00:35:05.711 --> 00:35:06.550
control over it.
604
00:35:06.970 --> 00:35:11.800
You can regulate the way in which it's marketed all of those
605
00:35:11.801 --> 00:35:15.160
sorts of things, but you also make the drug much more readily available,
606
00:35:15.161 --> 00:35:19.060
more people use it. And then as a consequence, the more use there's more harm.
607
00:35:19.330 --> 00:35:21.760
And we see that very clearly with alcohol tobacco,
608
00:35:22.120 --> 00:35:23.410
and we've had a huge experiment,
609
00:35:23.411 --> 00:35:26.620
increasing availability of opportunities to gamble in Australia.
610
00:35:26.740 --> 00:35:29.230
And most of the developed countries with predictable consequences,
611
00:35:29.830 --> 00:35:32.350
you also create a very large, powerful, wealthy,
612
00:35:32.351 --> 00:35:36.220
legal industry that has an interest in promoting its use and resisting attempts
613
00:35:36.221 --> 00:35:37.054
to control it,
614
00:35:37.290 --> 00:35:40.620
which the tobacco industry has been very effective in doing for over 50 years.
615
00:35:41.250 --> 00:35:44.280
And I, since we became very clear that these, these drugs work were harmful.
616
00:35:44.730 --> 00:35:49.470
So I think there are clear problems with, with regulation. These,
617
00:35:49.860 --> 00:35:52.890
with these drugs, I can't see them being changed. I mean,
618
00:35:52.900 --> 00:35:56.610
it's a common view that if we legalize and all the problems with disappeared,
619
00:35:57.060 --> 00:35:58.410
I don't think that would be the case. I mean,
620
00:35:58.411 --> 00:36:00.360
certainly problems around enforcement would,
621
00:36:00.361 --> 00:36:03.780
but you'd still have to regulate the drugs and you'd see a lot more use.
622
00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:05.340
We're seeing that with opiates,
623
00:36:05.341 --> 00:36:10.320
with the pharmaceuticals in the U S now as a consequence of heavy marketing
624
00:36:10.321 --> 00:36:12.630
of illegal pharmaceuticals, like Oxycontin,
625
00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:16.470
there more overdose deaths from legal pharmaceutical opiates than there are from
626
00:36:16.471 --> 00:36:21.000
heroin. So increasing the availability of a drug is usually not arrest.
627
00:36:21.100 --> 00:36:24.660
It removes some of the problems around law enforcement, black market,
628
00:36:25.050 --> 00:36:27.210
but at a cost of increasing use and harm.
629
00:36:28.190 --> 00:36:31.790
Perhaps John is as someone involved in more clinicals side of things,
630
00:36:31.791 --> 00:36:36.140
if what difference does it make if you're trying to
631
00:36:37.130 --> 00:36:40.880
hurt him, what the word is, re re habituate re rehabilitate. So quite the same,
632
00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:42.320
we'd almost assign rehab. It,
633
00:36:42.560 --> 00:36:46.910
the someone who has an addiction to an illegal
634
00:36:46.911 --> 00:36:51.890
substance is how much does the illegality frame the way in which
635
00:36:51.891 --> 00:36:54.080
you have to deal with work with that person?
636
00:36:55.310 --> 00:36:58.820
Yeah. I mean, I don't work directly in the, in the area, but,
637
00:36:58.950 --> 00:37:03.350
and I suppose I most commonly commonly come across it with kids who are smoking
638
00:37:03.351 --> 00:37:08.300
dope in a way that's destructive and dominating their lives and the
639
00:37:08.301 --> 00:37:09.134
legality of it.
640
00:37:09.260 --> 00:37:11.720
There doesn't seem to make terribly much difference as far as I can say,
641
00:37:12.230 --> 00:37:16.610
marijuana seems to be pretty much as accessible as alcohol for people who know
642
00:37:16.611 --> 00:37:18.740
how to get it. And if you're using a lot of it,
643
00:37:18.741 --> 00:37:21.470
presumably you do know how to get it. So
644
00:37:24.160 --> 00:37:28.100
it doesn't feel to me to make a huge difference that that it's just that it's
645
00:37:28.101 --> 00:37:31.670
illegal. Well, I think it, it makes more of a difference with the, the elicit,
646
00:37:31.910 --> 00:37:35.570
all the opiates and cocaine cause people who typically get involved in that are
647
00:37:35.571 --> 00:37:38.000
usually involved in criminal activities and sports.
648
00:37:38.001 --> 00:37:40.730
And so they've got the Juul problems around the stigma,
649
00:37:41.690 --> 00:37:45.110
stigma of being involved in criminal level to the end and being typically
650
00:37:45.111 --> 00:37:48.530
involved in prison. So it complicates life. And if there's any doubt about it,
651
00:37:48.620 --> 00:37:52.820
and there's an obvious trade-off, if you stigmatize a drug, you make it illegal.
652
00:37:53.120 --> 00:37:56.870
You reduce the prevalence of use with those people who do engage in using the
653
00:37:56.871 --> 00:38:00.530
drug under that circumstance often have much worse outcomes than they would if
654
00:38:00.531 --> 00:38:01.340
the drug illegal.
655
00:38:01.340 --> 00:38:05.300
So they clearly are trade offs of the sort I was mentioning earlier in social
656
00:38:05.301 --> 00:38:06.290
policy around drugs.
657
00:38:06.930 --> 00:38:11.930
And it's made me think of something else is then the year
658
00:38:11.931 --> 00:38:16.730
I get illegality of some of the large number of drugs,
659
00:38:17.030 --> 00:38:19.250
partly some addictive preps, some not,
660
00:38:20.030 --> 00:38:24.080
but certainly when looking at the younger members of the, of the population
661
00:38:26.570 --> 00:38:27.403
is that,
662
00:38:27.800 --> 00:38:32.780
that sort of resign of early illegality is that able
663
00:38:32.781 --> 00:38:37.300
to itself contribute to, to the habitual behavior?
664
00:38:37.390 --> 00:38:40.060
Is that part of what the people become in this case?
665
00:38:40.390 --> 00:38:44.290
It's updated not only to the, to the chemical,
666
00:38:44.620 --> 00:38:47.890
but to the behavior at the environment, which, which surrounds it.
667
00:38:48.100 --> 00:38:50.950
So going to dance parties is, is that it's actually,
668
00:38:50.951 --> 00:38:54.520
the boss is the boss you get from, from the ecstasy going up,
669
00:38:54.550 --> 00:38:59.320
going to a a group of friends in a and taking
670
00:38:59.321 --> 00:39:02.700
whatever drugs you take is that part of the, part of the deal is,
671
00:39:02.730 --> 00:39:06.370
is that part of the behavior that's embedded within perhaps even more deeply
672
00:39:06.371 --> 00:39:07.540
than they can, the chemical behind that.
673
00:39:08.650 --> 00:39:12.130
What was certainly in terms of acute intoxication? That's true because,
674
00:39:12.160 --> 00:39:12.341
you know,
675
00:39:12.341 --> 00:39:16.060
we can live in experiments where I think people have even been given a drink on
676
00:39:16.061 --> 00:39:19.000
and told that it's going to be a set of two minutes and it calms them down.
677
00:39:19.690 --> 00:39:22.240
So the expectations are enormously important.
678
00:39:23.170 --> 00:39:25.990
But I don't know how that plays into the whole addiction thing. I mean,
679
00:39:25.991 --> 00:39:30.940
certainly, you know, the, there is, and,
680
00:39:30.941 --> 00:39:34.090
and different people will take a different view about whether you should call it
681
00:39:34.091 --> 00:39:37.540
addiction or not, but there's, I think the cultural circumstances,
682
00:39:37.541 --> 00:39:42.250
you can certainly get hooked on the big cultural
683
00:39:42.251 --> 00:39:44.770
circumstances in which you take that particular drug.
684
00:39:46.270 --> 00:39:48.430
But I think most people who are really, you know,
685
00:39:48.440 --> 00:39:52.390
kind of seriously addicted to,
686
00:39:52.391 --> 00:39:56.230
and being very damaged by drugs,
687
00:39:56.290 --> 00:40:00.460
whether it's alcohol or illicit drugs,
688
00:40:00.550 --> 00:40:04.060
my impression is that they often live fairly lonely lives and they've lost the
689
00:40:04.061 --> 00:40:08.440
conduct cultural stuff that might've attracted them to that particular drug in
690
00:40:08.441 --> 00:40:09.280
the first place.
691
00:40:10.510 --> 00:40:13.060
Yeah. I mean, I do agree with drug set and setting as the jargon.
692
00:40:13.061 --> 00:40:14.350
It's not just the drug effect.
693
00:40:14.710 --> 00:40:18.430
The set is the attitude that people have about the expectations of drug effects.
694
00:40:18.910 --> 00:40:22.240
And the setting is the sort of social group within which people use a drug.
695
00:40:22.750 --> 00:40:26.260
And some social settings are more inclined to encourage patterns of use that
696
00:40:26.680 --> 00:40:28.990
will set up problems. And I agree with Jon,
697
00:40:28.991 --> 00:40:32.470
a lot of the people that find it most difficult to disengage from addictive
698
00:40:32.471 --> 00:40:35.230
patterns of drug use, don't have a lot of good things happening in their lives.
699
00:40:35.380 --> 00:40:38.620
There's alternatives that often don't have they've dropped out of school early
700
00:40:38.870 --> 00:40:41.020
sled don't have good employment opportunities.
701
00:40:41.170 --> 00:40:44.410
They're often come from families where there's Australian relationships or
702
00:40:44.411 --> 00:40:47.350
parental history of middle, middle disorders or substance use,
703
00:40:47.800 --> 00:40:50.020
and all they're involved in criminal justice system,
704
00:40:50.080 --> 00:40:54.940
all of which may make their chances of disengaging a much,
705
00:40:54.970 --> 00:40:57.550
much smaller you can call it.
706
00:40:57.660 --> 00:41:00.930
Well, I guess my only, my only comment relates to,
707
00:41:01.980 --> 00:41:06.510
I do think there is a very small element of that sort of risk taking type of
708
00:41:06.511 --> 00:41:09.360
behavior, but I have no idea what proportion, you know, if,
709
00:41:09.630 --> 00:41:14.190
if a drug is considered very illegal, very sort of underground or something,
710
00:41:14.191 --> 00:41:19.050
then I can believe that there's a small proportion of the populations that might
711
00:41:19.051 --> 00:41:20.280
be more interested to try it,
712
00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:24.720
but how that relates to the portion of people that ended up getting addicted.
713
00:41:24.721 --> 00:41:29.340
And my one sort of anecdotal thing is when I was sort of less than
714
00:41:29.341 --> 00:41:29.761
21,
715
00:41:29.761 --> 00:41:34.580
I can't remember how long it was the 20 or so I was over the states for six
716
00:41:34.581 --> 00:41:36.500
months and pretty sure that the,
717
00:41:36.660 --> 00:41:40.490
the interest in drinking and the achievement of actually getting alcohol was
718
00:41:40.491 --> 00:41:44.810
exactly the same. Whether there was a legal here, it was legal. And I don't,
719
00:41:44.940 --> 00:41:48.500
it didn't seem to be an extra element of excitement of going and getting a beer
720
00:41:48.501 --> 00:41:50.540
from the bottle shop or whatever.
721
00:41:51.560 --> 00:41:54.260
So the one noticeable seeing,
722
00:41:54.261 --> 00:41:56.810
I don't know if this is that actually the,
723
00:41:58.090 --> 00:42:01.790
the drinking underage as, as a 20 year old or whatever it was,
724
00:42:01.820 --> 00:42:06.440
was so mainstream that, that I got the sense of smoking cannabis was, was,
725
00:42:06.740 --> 00:42:10.100
was considered equal. So, whereas in Australia, that was, you know,
726
00:42:10.580 --> 00:42:14.300
obviously it's, it's legal at 19 to drink alcohol, but, you know, that's my,
727
00:42:14.630 --> 00:42:18.530
my one experience. So I sort of feel that maybe for a very small proportion,
728
00:42:18.531 --> 00:42:22.250
but there's a huge number of people I imagine that would be taking a pill at a
729
00:42:22.251 --> 00:42:26.480
party and would be relatively happy to know that it wasn't the most dangerous,
730
00:42:26.530 --> 00:42:26.810
you know,
731
00:42:26.810 --> 00:42:30.890
like they're not doing it because they want this incredibly risky experience.
732
00:42:30.891 --> 00:42:33.290
They're doing it because their friends are doing it and people were saying,
733
00:42:33.291 --> 00:42:35.080
it's fine. Hmm. Interesting.
734
00:42:36.230 --> 00:42:40.180
We're getting close to the end of that time for ed session up here.
735
00:42:40.181 --> 00:42:43.540
So in a minute, I'll be asking people to questions from the floor.
736
00:42:43.541 --> 00:42:44.630
We've got some microphones up there.
737
00:42:44.710 --> 00:42:48.130
We'll ask people to use that and keep questions, brave.
738
00:42:48.581 --> 00:42:52.090
So our people make the most of the microphone for ask some questions.
739
00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:57.270
We'll just finish up with maybe one, one more question.
740
00:42:57.430 --> 00:42:58.450
And depending how many people go to the microphones.
741
00:43:01.030 --> 00:43:03.160
And again,
742
00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:07.630
we'll bring it back to the broader social context.
743
00:43:07.631 --> 00:43:09.970
I surprise and
744
00:43:11.890 --> 00:43:15.400
draw on a lot of the things that we've been talking about.
745
00:43:16.300 --> 00:43:20.890
And I suppose partly the question partly comes out of the notion of
746
00:43:21.490 --> 00:43:22.600
Elise, some drugs anyway, being,
747
00:43:22.660 --> 00:43:27.550
being illegal and even ones which are illegal may lead someone to
748
00:43:27.551 --> 00:43:29.020
do illegal activity
749
00:43:31.120 --> 00:43:32.590
Driving a car while you're intoxicated,
750
00:43:33.040 --> 00:43:36.250
Crashing and crash shooting someone in a dragon argument or something like that.
751
00:43:37.540 --> 00:43:41.680
And we've also talked about the
752
00:43:42.670 --> 00:43:43.503
the distinction, but,
753
00:43:43.540 --> 00:43:47.680
or the comparison between that sort of behavior and the behavior of someone has
754
00:43:48.580 --> 00:43:50.800
some compulsive disorder or something like that.
755
00:43:50.830 --> 00:43:54.970
And that doesn't normally to antisocial behavior in the white,
756
00:43:54.971 --> 00:43:59.470
in the sense of doing people in or anything like that, or, but, you know,
757
00:43:59.650 --> 00:44:01.960
perhaps it might in some extreme circumstances.
758
00:44:03.190 --> 00:44:07.240
But one of the defenses and you hear occasionally talked about,
759
00:44:07.270 --> 00:44:11.140
and I'm not a lawyer side, nothing about, about the actual ins and outs of this,
760
00:44:11.500 --> 00:44:14.710
but the throwaway line is my brain made me do it.
761
00:44:16.300 --> 00:44:19.120
So if your brain makes you do it
762
00:44:21.160 --> 00:44:23.950
without the influence of any external substances,
763
00:44:25.180 --> 00:44:28.570
and if it does with the influence of external substances,
764
00:44:30.280 --> 00:44:31.113
is there any,
765
00:44:33.270 --> 00:44:38.190
if you had to pick up expert witness called in your experts called into a legal
766
00:44:38.191 --> 00:44:40.320
case, this is a defense. My brain may be do it,
767
00:44:40.560 --> 00:44:44.100
are there because I had behavioral dis disfunction, perhaps transitory.
768
00:44:44.910 --> 00:44:47.010
But it could be seen as being an addictive behavior,
769
00:44:47.040 --> 00:44:51.600
which was faulted or led to some and this social PEPs rather than anti social
770
00:44:51.780 --> 00:44:55.080
consequence or eyes. And it woke up commonly experienced.
771
00:44:55.110 --> 00:44:56.610
Perhaps I was under the influence of a drug,
772
00:44:57.060 --> 00:45:00.300
maybe a legal one which I had to have, because I have seen,
773
00:45:01.830 --> 00:45:05.070
we know the sorts of stories. Is that a fair defense?
774
00:45:06.330 --> 00:45:09.750
Well, the courts generally don't accept it. Then they might,
775
00:45:09.751 --> 00:45:14.520
if the drug induced a psychotic disorder they might
776
00:45:14.521 --> 00:45:17.040
just end. But usually I think they tend to take the,
777
00:45:17.550 --> 00:45:20.760
the view that if you've self administered a substance that makes you behave in a
778
00:45:20.761 --> 00:45:24.090
particular way, then you're responsible for your conduct. I mean,
779
00:45:24.091 --> 00:45:26.190
there was a bit of ambivalence in that the court is, will,
780
00:45:26.760 --> 00:45:30.750
will mitigate the penalty. If somebody commits a minor, a property offense,
781
00:45:30.751 --> 00:45:32.910
or drug dealing because they're addicted,
782
00:45:33.390 --> 00:45:36.000
but usually they're convicted of the offense and then offer treatment as an
783
00:45:36.001 --> 00:45:37.110
alternative to prison.
784
00:45:37.500 --> 00:45:41.130
So the courts have been fairly skeptical of accept addiction as an excuse for
785
00:45:41.131 --> 00:45:42.480
criminal behavior. John,
786
00:45:43.710 --> 00:45:46.650
I was recently giving a talk in,
787
00:45:46.830 --> 00:45:49.830
in Tasmania about ADHD and a magistrate
788
00:45:52.290 --> 00:45:57.240
was listening to my skeptical views about the subject and was came to me
789
00:45:57.241 --> 00:45:58.320
afterwards saying that,
790
00:45:58.650 --> 00:46:02.310
that does this mean that I don't have to let all these kids off for all the
791
00:46:02.311 --> 00:46:04.830
offenses that I've been bullied into letting them off?
792
00:46:06.510 --> 00:46:10.260
I think I have a fairly simplistic view about this, which is it, you know,
793
00:46:10.590 --> 00:46:14.010
if your brain tells you to do it, then that's you, and you've done that.
794
00:46:15.050 --> 00:46:17.880
If you've got intoxicated in the first place before you've done it,
795
00:46:17.881 --> 00:46:20.520
it's still you and you've still done it. And, you know,
796
00:46:20.760 --> 00:46:24.030
as with any other set of factors in relation to any kind of offense where you
797
00:46:24.031 --> 00:46:27.990
hope that the court will be sympathetic and look at mitigating factors and all
798
00:46:27.991 --> 00:46:29.160
that kind of stuff, but for me,
799
00:46:29.161 --> 00:46:34.110
it doesn't have any real bearing on guilt or responsibility it's in terms of
800
00:46:34.380 --> 00:46:36.920
freedom and responsibility, Olivia. Yeah, I, I'm.
801
00:46:36.920 --> 00:46:39.200
Obviously not a lawyer, but,
802
00:46:39.430 --> 00:46:43.970
but I have a diff I have quite a different opinion than that. I don't know what,
803
00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:45.800
like, I think obviously to some extent,
804
00:46:45.890 --> 00:46:49.130
the person has to take ultimate responsibility and they put the drugs in the
805
00:46:49.131 --> 00:46:53.000
first place. They got themselves into this situation, whatever. But to me
806
00:46:55.070 --> 00:46:57.680
it should be taken into account at some level,
807
00:46:58.100 --> 00:47:02.990
if the motivation for a crime is to seek out a drug that
808
00:47:02.991 --> 00:47:07.820
someone's severely craving is very tangential, but our I,
809
00:47:07.910 --> 00:47:11.900
my, my grandparents Peruvian, and there's a lot of
810
00:47:14.270 --> 00:47:16.820
social inequality basically. And my,
811
00:47:17.180 --> 00:47:20.150
I never forget my grandfather once said to me that
812
00:47:21.830 --> 00:47:22.850
he was quite racist.
813
00:47:22.851 --> 00:47:26.270
I have to say it was quite a sort of eye opening at the time,
814
00:47:26.271 --> 00:47:29.530
but he basically was sort of saying that all the, you know,
815
00:47:29.540 --> 00:47:32.590
the poor people from the poor socioeconomic background, I mean,
816
00:47:32.710 --> 00:47:36.100
there's a huge amount of crime. And he sort of said that, you know,
817
00:47:36.101 --> 00:47:37.870
these people would top up your arm for your watch.
818
00:47:38.140 --> 00:47:41.620
They have no regard for anything. And I sort of left thinking,
819
00:47:43.300 --> 00:47:45.550
I mean, chopping off your arm is obviously incredibly extreme.
820
00:47:45.551 --> 00:47:49.540
But if the poverty was such the extent that you had the steel for your children
821
00:47:49.541 --> 00:47:52.120
or something like that, if,
822
00:47:52.121 --> 00:47:55.960
if drugs are tapping into the same sorts of mechanisms that are driving the most
823
00:47:55.961 --> 00:47:59.860
fundamental behaviors, like caring for a child or something like that, if you,
824
00:47:59.861 --> 00:48:04.780
if I personally had the choice of seeing a child stab or
825
00:48:05.350 --> 00:48:08.290
steel who commit some sort of crime, I would commit that crime.
826
00:48:08.291 --> 00:48:12.100
And I sort of feel like, I don't know, I'm not,
827
00:48:12.160 --> 00:48:15.550
I'm not addicted to heroin or anything like that, but if,
828
00:48:15.690 --> 00:48:20.590
if there are drives and needs and desires that come up, even, you know,
829
00:48:20.591 --> 00:48:24.160
a 10th of the way towards that type of instant instinct.
830
00:48:24.161 --> 00:48:28.060
And I feel like that needs to be taken into consideration. I mean,
831
00:48:28.061 --> 00:48:32.680
if people are causing random indiscriminate harm to
832
00:48:33.610 --> 00:48:36.070
people, you know, sort of violent crimes or whatever,
833
00:48:36.071 --> 00:48:39.220
then that obviously is also a really bad thing. But if people
834
00:48:41.710 --> 00:48:44.560
have this need to satisfy an addiction,
835
00:48:44.650 --> 00:48:46.720
and the only way they can satisfy that need is through crime,
836
00:48:46.870 --> 00:48:48.880
then this is obviously really bad.
837
00:48:48.881 --> 00:48:50.980
And the problem has been that has to be treated in some way,
838
00:48:50.981 --> 00:48:54.850
but I feel like that's different to the person that just wants the TV.
839
00:48:55.590 --> 00:48:58.140
Well there's two different issues. One is the motivation for it.
840
00:48:58.141 --> 00:49:02.610
Somebody who's not agree with you absolutely need to take that into account that
841
00:49:02.611 --> 00:49:03.444
motivation. But,
842
00:49:03.570 --> 00:49:07.200
but I thought what we were talking about with somebody who's saying it was
843
00:49:07.201 --> 00:49:08.910
because I was Stein that I did it.
844
00:49:08.911 --> 00:49:12.120
I didn't have responsibility for my behavior because I was intoxicated.
845
00:49:12.270 --> 00:49:14.340
It's given us between intoxication and addiction.
846
00:49:15.180 --> 00:49:17.520
So I was, okay. So that's, that's a different example,
847
00:49:17.730 --> 00:49:19.470
but there are huge numbers of crime.
848
00:49:19.471 --> 00:49:22.140
I imagine where a lot of people that are out there trying to get the money for
849
00:49:22.141 --> 00:49:24.420
the next year. And so yeah,
850
00:49:24.600 --> 00:49:28.070
if I was drunk and I've drove down the street and killed somebody,
851
00:49:28.200 --> 00:49:32.690
it's not a good fit, you go to jail. As far as I'm concerned, I have zero in 54.
852
00:49:33.600 --> 00:49:34.290
But,
853
00:49:34.290 --> 00:49:39.240
but I cried based on needing to acquire drugs,
854
00:49:39.241 --> 00:49:41.280
to my understanding,
855
00:49:41.370 --> 00:49:43.620
are you probably know more about this one sending you this that's quite a
856
00:49:43.650 --> 00:49:44.483
substantial.
857
00:49:44.610 --> 00:49:48.450
Yeah. And what the courts do in that case is, is, would still find the,
858
00:49:48.600 --> 00:49:52.470
the offense proven, but would offer a lesser penalty rather than in prisoner.
859
00:49:52.590 --> 00:49:56.070
So it would be treatment as an alternative and something I'll be talking about
860
00:49:56.220 --> 00:49:57.060
tomorrow. Yeah.
861
00:49:58.170 --> 00:50:00.000
So any questions from the floor, Scott,
862
00:50:00.060 --> 00:50:04.020
go to the microphone and we'll have the first question. Thank you.
863
00:50:05.310 --> 00:50:06.143
Yep.
864
00:50:06.270 --> 00:50:10.230
Hello, my name Rowena. And you haven't mentioned, you know,
865
00:50:10.231 --> 00:50:15.000
there's alcoholic gambling problem, workaholic. You haven't mentioned that one,
866
00:50:15.001 --> 00:50:19.530
but is there such a thing as an addictive personalities that if you're not a
867
00:50:19.531 --> 00:50:24.420
workaholic, you might actually be an alcoholic. Is there any research you meant?
868
00:50:27.530 --> 00:50:30.890
Yeah, it's a perennial question that's asked. I mean,
869
00:50:31.060 --> 00:50:35.330
there's certainly characteristics of personality that make people more inclined
870
00:50:35.331 --> 00:50:37.640
to become addicted to a variety of substances.
871
00:50:38.380 --> 00:50:43.250
And my favorite example is being very smart and doing
872
00:50:43.251 --> 00:50:46.820
well at school can increase your risk of dependence by becoming a doctor and
873
00:50:46.821 --> 00:50:48.800
underneath system having access to opiates.
874
00:50:50.810 --> 00:50:54.530
But I think we're generally thinking about personality traits that make people
875
00:50:54.531 --> 00:50:56.030
more impulsive,
876
00:50:56.480 --> 00:51:01.130
less likely to consider the consequences of their behavior and more inclined to
877
00:51:01.131 --> 00:51:01.964
take risks.
878
00:51:02.420 --> 00:51:07.220
Those sorts of behaviors typically go with having a Y chromosome and and
879
00:51:07.221 --> 00:51:10.550
often performing poorly in school and a variety of other things.
880
00:51:10.820 --> 00:51:12.740
So there's certainly characteristics that predict it.
881
00:51:12.741 --> 00:51:17.090
And people who become dependent on one drug are often dependent on more than
882
00:51:17.091 --> 00:51:17.780
one.
883
00:51:17.780 --> 00:51:21.980
So alcohol and tobacco tend to go together often with cannabis and people who
884
00:51:21.981 --> 00:51:25.870
are heroin dependent are often dependent on half a dozen drugs and often engage
885
00:51:25.990 --> 00:51:27.170
in problem gambling as well.
886
00:51:27.500 --> 00:51:32.180
So people who are inclined to find the effects of drugs rewarding are often
887
00:51:32.181 --> 00:51:34.190
inclined to find the effects of a lot of drugs,
888
00:51:34.191 --> 00:51:37.610
rewarding and a lot of activities. So there's, there's something in it,
889
00:51:37.611 --> 00:51:38.720
but it's, it's not,
890
00:51:38.750 --> 00:51:41.870
not the whole story any more than the drug effect is the whole story
891
00:51:43.760 --> 00:51:45.140
from reduction in stress.
892
00:51:48.290 --> 00:51:49.610
I don't think there's any doubt about that at all.
893
00:51:49.730 --> 00:51:52.580
It's that John was arguing that anxiety,
894
00:51:53.090 --> 00:51:55.880
people wanting to feel better is a common motive,
895
00:51:55.881 --> 00:51:57.710
particularly for using drugs like alcohol.
896
00:51:58.190 --> 00:51:58.910
Johnny would click on it.
897
00:51:58.910 --> 00:52:03.560
I just, I have a kind of test for personality explanations of things. Is,
898
00:52:03.960 --> 00:52:08.090
does it do better than horoscopes file a test?
899
00:52:08.930 --> 00:52:11.300
Not impulsivity impulsivity.
900
00:52:11.300 --> 00:52:14.980
It Is one of those trays and sensation seeking that does predict. Yeah,
901
00:52:14.990 --> 00:52:19.760
it's a fairly weak predictor. It does better than horoscope. And especially,
902
00:52:19.880 --> 00:52:20.713
thank you.
903
00:52:23.230 --> 00:52:28.150
My, my question was that ever basically is education genetic,
904
00:52:28.210 --> 00:52:33.070
like when a baby's born, let's say sleeping, eating,
905
00:52:33.071 --> 00:52:37.740
drinking, and all those other things. It isn't like genetic like more like,
906
00:52:38.740 --> 00:52:41.440
cause we really don't because it's like with the genes,
907
00:52:41.620 --> 00:52:43.540
like it's passed down from mother to child,
908
00:52:43.750 --> 00:52:48.040
or is it that pain and punishment like it's to avoid that.
909
00:52:48.850 --> 00:52:50.350
Yeah. Good question. Fantastic question.
910
00:52:50.650 --> 00:52:52.780
If he wants to answer it. No. Well,
911
00:52:52.840 --> 00:52:57.820
behavior is genetic human behavior is genetic and that's true of drug addiction
912
00:52:57.980 --> 00:53:01.780
is as it is of a lot of others, but that we're not,
913
00:53:01.810 --> 00:53:06.190
we're not talking about a gene that confers a high risk. There's,
914
00:53:06.191 --> 00:53:10.390
there's clearly a genetic contribution to addiction susceptibility, but it's,
915
00:53:10.700 --> 00:53:14.440
it's not a simple story. It's, you're not trapped by your genetic 99.
916
00:53:15.340 --> 00:53:17.140
But the critical thing there is susceptibility,
917
00:53:17.141 --> 00:53:21.310
which means the tendency that you can get something is,
918
00:53:21.370 --> 00:53:22.570
has a strong genetic basis,
919
00:53:22.630 --> 00:53:26.340
whether or not you actually develop that is on a whole bunch of other things in
920
00:53:26.341 --> 00:53:27.330
your life experience.
921
00:53:27.420 --> 00:53:31.380
And it's true for your ability to play a violin as it's to do mathematics is to
922
00:53:31.381 --> 00:53:34.710
drive a car really fast and not enough off the side of the road. So it's,
923
00:53:34.890 --> 00:53:35.980
that's all, it's a good question. And it's,
924
00:53:36.240 --> 00:53:38.340
there's a nice gentle answer for that. Yeah. Thank you.
925
00:53:40.760 --> 00:53:45.380
It looked like most of you agree that eventually your brain before
926
00:53:45.381 --> 00:53:49.730
yourself are responsible for your actions. And so if you do something illegal,
927
00:53:50.270 --> 00:53:53.270
that is the bit which is prohibited. And if this is the case,
928
00:53:53.271 --> 00:53:58.160
then why at society of governments do prohibits some
929
00:53:58.190 --> 00:53:59.510
chemicals or substances,
930
00:53:59.540 --> 00:54:04.370
instead of we're supposed to be individuals and not call for all of
931
00:54:04.371 --> 00:54:07.190
you to be very strong against anybody.
932
00:54:07.310 --> 00:54:09.020
We shouldn't have any of the drugs you're talking about.
933
00:54:12.590 --> 00:54:17.240
One's point is very important here that you've got to do a harm benefit analysis
934
00:54:17.241 --> 00:54:22.190
on it. And and if you're going to change the existing
935
00:54:22.191 --> 00:54:22.941
status quo,
936
00:54:22.941 --> 00:54:27.290
then you need to be able to produce evidence that it's going to do more good
937
00:54:27.291 --> 00:54:31.850
than harm. And that's a really difficult question to answer,
938
00:54:31.851 --> 00:54:35.660
and it possibly differs for different, different substances,
939
00:54:35.661 --> 00:54:40.040
but I don't think that our kind of libertarianism is going to be the answer to
940
00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:42.650
problems in relation to drugs.
941
00:54:44.470 --> 00:54:47.390
And maybe one last question, that's about the top there. You see, I cant see
942
00:54:49.280 --> 00:54:50.990
some at the top, the, sorry I missed you. I didn't realize it was not coming up.
943
00:54:51.890 --> 00:54:52.880
Okay. We got, we've got three up the top.
944
00:54:52.881 --> 00:54:55.490
We might get them a guide and give you a gut quick answers. Quick questions,
945
00:54:55.520 --> 00:54:56.540
quick answers. Right.
946
00:54:57.650 --> 00:55:01.040
Addiction seems to have a lot to do with self-control.
947
00:55:01.100 --> 00:55:02.540
And I was wondering with this,
948
00:55:02.990 --> 00:55:06.620
any good way to teach self control.
949
00:55:09.290 --> 00:55:14.060
That was a question I'll hit on mindless psychiatrist, psychologist.
950
00:55:15.620 --> 00:55:19.310
Is there a way of teaching self-control that they can overcome an addiction
951
00:55:19.790 --> 00:55:20.623
is....
952
00:55:21.770 --> 00:55:26.060
I've got this thing about self self control versus
953
00:55:26.061 --> 00:55:30.050
self-regulation. Self-Regulation is about how you manage yourself overall,
954
00:55:31.250 --> 00:55:35.450
self-control is about stopping yourself from doing things. So for me, you know,
955
00:55:35.510 --> 00:55:38.080
when I think of self-control, I think of John Howard,
956
00:55:38.100 --> 00:55:39.380
when I think of self-regulation,
957
00:55:39.381 --> 00:55:40.700
I think of Nelson Mandela and Self-regulation what we want to teach people.
958
00:55:41.990 --> 00:55:43.010
That
959
00:55:50.950 --> 00:55:54.620
it's a complex important. My next question. In fact, the top top there. Yep.
960
00:55:56.540 --> 00:56:01.130
I just want to know, ask the panel if perhaps we have most to
961
00:56:01.131 --> 00:56:05.000
fear from drugs, which have no side effects. For example,
962
00:56:05.300 --> 00:56:08.570
if there's a, a strain of broccoli developed,
963
00:56:08.571 --> 00:56:12.370
it gives people a tremendous high will the world fall into a heap.
964
00:56:14.840 --> 00:56:18.470
Well, Kurt Vonnegut wrote a great short story on exactly that theme.
965
00:56:19.070 --> 00:56:23.470
And that was a group of people waking up because the power went off and
966
00:56:23.471 --> 00:56:28.240
realizing, working out why they'd all ended up on the floor of his house.
967
00:56:28.241 --> 00:56:32.530
And it was because of some new machine that somebody switched on that gave
968
00:56:32.531 --> 00:56:36.460
instant pleasure that nobody wanted to stop just as they realized what was
969
00:56:36.461 --> 00:56:41.350
happening. The power came back on. I think you're right.
970
00:56:41.351 --> 00:56:44.590
I mean, it, you know, something that was teary awarding my,
971
00:56:44.620 --> 00:56:49.090
my to approve an enormous distraction and B become a source of preoccupation
972
00:56:49.771 --> 00:56:52.180
and distract us from doing other, other things.
973
00:56:53.010 --> 00:56:53.843
You have a comment?
974
00:56:54.420 --> 00:56:59.340
I guess my only comment is that that's a huge part of my thoughts tomorrow.
975
00:57:00.930 --> 00:57:05.430
So it's hard to put into context cause I think it's a, it's a complicated issue,
976
00:57:05.431 --> 00:57:08.520
but I, I do think that society would,
977
00:57:08.670 --> 00:57:11.880
would struggle to deal with this situation, like amazing broccoli.
978
00:57:12.450 --> 00:57:13.890
Okay. We've got two, two questions left.
979
00:57:13.891 --> 00:57:16.050
We got one of the top and then we'll come to the last one down here, up here.
980
00:57:17.070 --> 00:57:20.430
Before the Russian army lift to Afghanistan,
981
00:57:21.000 --> 00:57:25.940
they had adopted a practice of not allowing the troops to stay there for number
982
00:57:26.190 --> 00:57:27.023
three months.
983
00:57:27.510 --> 00:57:32.280
A reason being little places are washed drugs and too many
984
00:57:32.640 --> 00:57:36.570
people were going home seriously drunk predicted,
985
00:57:37.920 --> 00:57:42.840
or should imagine the position of the Australian troops is
986
00:57:42.841 --> 00:57:46.860
no different to the Russians. Places are washed with drugs.
987
00:57:46.861 --> 00:57:50.190
You don't know whether you're going to live another day.
988
00:57:52.530 --> 00:57:57.270
Any individual that there'll be any special arrangements made
989
00:57:57.660 --> 00:58:01.410
to comfort the troops come home.
990
00:58:04.050 --> 00:58:04.883
[inaudible].
991
00:58:06.410 --> 00:58:08.250
I don't know that the short answer to your question,
992
00:58:08.251 --> 00:58:09.720
but I think it's an important one.
993
00:58:09.721 --> 00:58:14.490
If you look at the major casualties of war in the
994
00:58:14.880 --> 00:58:16.710
post-war period amongst war veterans,
995
00:58:17.070 --> 00:58:20.160
it's alcohol and tobacco typically,
996
00:58:20.550 --> 00:58:23.850
and in the case of Vietnam veterans in the U S it was opiates because they were
997
00:58:23.851 --> 00:58:24.690
freely available.
998
00:58:24.960 --> 00:58:28.890
I don't know whether it's a problem for Australian troops in Afghanistan,
999
00:58:28.891 --> 00:58:32.310
but historically alcohol has been a bigger problem because we've,
1000
00:58:32.340 --> 00:58:37.140
we've made that readily available to, to troops under war, war time conditions.
1001
00:58:40.170 --> 00:58:41.790
Okay. Final question here. Thank you for waiting.
1002
00:58:42.570 --> 00:58:45.240
Yes. the
1003
00:58:47.610 --> 00:58:52.170
aspect that hasn't been actually dealt with is the public attitude to use
1004
00:58:52.171 --> 00:58:56.920
substances that can become addictive in this situation
1005
00:58:58.290 --> 00:59:00.150
JT, chronic pain [inaudable]
1006
00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:06.150
hoops that have to jump through, we have two problems.
1007
00:59:06.180 --> 00:59:10.470
One is either prescribing, which usually ends up with someone,
1008
00:59:10.471 --> 00:59:14.190
having the impression, especially qualifications during the questions,
1009
00:59:14.400 --> 00:59:17.970
but the other one is under prescribing because of problems.
1010
00:59:19.380 --> 00:59:21.770
The hoops practitioners to jump through.
1011
00:59:22.070 --> 00:59:25.580
And I'm also had difficulty in getting prescriptions too.
1012
00:59:27.910 --> 00:59:29.350
I have great difficulty.
1013
00:59:30.860 --> 00:59:35.810
Capital was part of my cocktail of pain management, 10 milligrams,
1014
00:59:35.811 --> 00:59:36.644
three times a day....
1015
00:59:36.710 --> 00:59:40.660
Yeah. If you go into details, come to the question quick, [inaudible].
1016
00:59:42.280 --> 00:59:46.210
Going to the pharmacy. They can not feel you my prescription,
1017
00:59:47.140 --> 00:59:49.540
which has been authorized. And what have you,
1018
00:59:49.690 --> 00:59:54.160
because I don't carry it because this, this, this, this,
1019
00:59:54.280 --> 00:59:58.930
and there are cases that I know of adopters who are elected to prescribe because
1020
00:59:58.931 --> 01:00:01.150
of the bureaucracy that they have to go through.
1021
01:00:02.170 --> 01:00:05.860
People who want to administer in the hospitals because they escape.
1022
01:00:05.890 --> 01:00:08.740
People become addicted and problems like that.
1023
01:00:08.800 --> 01:00:13.660
And there is a hysteria associated around the appropriate
1024
01:00:13.661 --> 01:00:14.830
medical use,
1025
01:00:16.270 --> 01:00:21.190
simply because of this the PSI attitude that people have
1026
01:00:21.191 --> 01:00:22.180
to addiction, you know?
1027
01:00:23.040 --> 01:00:25.810
Yeah. Wait, have a question, please? We need to move on.
1028
01:00:29.830 --> 01:00:34.810
It's a it's attitude to addiction and substances that can
1029
01:00:34.811 --> 01:00:39.400
create the payments which is causing huge problems and causing
1030
01:00:39.401 --> 01:00:40.600
people immense suffering.
1031
01:00:41.560 --> 01:00:45.130
Yeah. Thank you. So quick comment on this, the social context with him,
1032
01:00:45.160 --> 01:00:45.993
should we.
1033
01:00:46.450 --> 01:00:47.740
Think there's any doubt that one of it,
1034
01:00:47.741 --> 01:00:51.970
the consequences of the restrictions around opiates is that people who require
1035
01:00:51.971 --> 01:00:54.880
opiates for pain control found it more difficult to access,
1036
01:00:55.420 --> 01:00:58.150
but I think I wouldn't characterize it as hysteria.
1037
01:00:58.151 --> 01:01:00.850
When in the U S in 2006,
1038
01:01:00.851 --> 01:01:04.960
there were 30,000 people who died of overdose as a pharmaceutical opiates.
1039
01:01:04.961 --> 01:01:07.000
That's not a, not hysterical.
1040
01:01:07.120 --> 01:01:11.050
It's an issue that deserves to be taken seriously as a public health issue.
1041
01:01:11.051 --> 01:01:14.620
So there are good reasons for restricting opioids. One of the.
1042
01:01:17.860 --> 01:01:20.410
Yeah. Well, could you do the conversation afterwards,
1043
01:01:20.411 --> 01:01:22.450
which is part of what the whole festival of ideas is?
1044
01:01:22.451 --> 01:01:26.050
So that leaves us with a very good little reminder that our times up
1045
01:01:27.250 --> 01:01:31.780
I'd like to thank first of all, our participants wine hall Olivia
1046
01:01:33.940 --> 01:01:37.000
[inaudible] and John Jura for taking part in this terrific discussion.
1047
01:01:37.030 --> 01:01:39.130
Fantastic set of questions from the audience.
1048
01:01:44.290 --> 01:01:46.030
Just before four people go,
1049
01:01:46.031 --> 01:01:50.830
just to remind people that you can hear each of our guests today
1050
01:01:51.130 --> 01:01:52.240
in their full glory,
1051
01:01:52.241 --> 01:01:55.720
on their all by themselves without being interrupted by me or what other people
1052
01:01:55.721 --> 01:01:59.770
alternative views list for 40 minutes. And tomorrow.
1053
01:01:59.860 --> 01:02:01.360
So I just looking down the schedule,
1054
01:02:01.600 --> 01:02:04.590
Olivia's on 10 o'clock at the hits or lecture theater.
1055
01:02:04.610 --> 01:02:07.000
What if drugs would develop that had no negative side effects?
1056
01:02:07.180 --> 01:02:12.020
That's one of the things we've been talking about. And then shortly after that,
1057
01:02:12.130 --> 01:02:15.910
the Jarvis room at 1130,
1058
01:02:16.000 --> 01:02:17.950
John's got a fantastic title,
1059
01:02:18.340 --> 01:02:23.250
six up or just lazy actually that's here. What's been moved that's right?
1060
01:02:23.251 --> 01:02:26.430
Yes, you're right. That's now the elder. Thank you for reminding me of that.
1061
01:02:27.480 --> 01:02:32.430
And then later in the afternoon four o'clock Wayne
1062
01:02:32.431 --> 01:02:34.920
is talking about coerced treatment, which again,
1063
01:02:35.550 --> 01:02:38.760
will expand on many of the themes that we've had. So thank you very much.
1064
01:02:39.090 --> 01:02:42.870
Hope you've learned something about addictive brains if only is because it's so
1065
01:02:42.871 --> 01:02:45.890
bloody hard. And thank you for coming.
1066
01:02:45.900 --> 01:02:47.530
Keep the conversation going and enjoy the.