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Hello, everyone.
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Welcome to our here at the science exchange for the Adelaide festival of ideas.
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Just a couple of housekeeping matters to start with.
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We'd ask that if you have a mobile phone,
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could you please switch it off or put it on silent for the duration of the
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session with the bar isn't open today,
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but there is a water up on the bar that you can help yourself to if you need a
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drink. And and at the end of this session,
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we will ask you even if you would like to stay for the next session,
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we are clearing the auditorium in between sessions.
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So if you'd like to come back for the next session, we'd love to see you again,
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but we'll just have to ask you to go back out and join the line and come back in
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again. And with that,
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we'll hand over to Marianne who is our host for this afternoon session.
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Hello and welcome everyone to the 2011 Adelaide festival of ideas.
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I'm so pleased to see so many of you here today. We're turning people away.
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So well done. I mean,
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you're obviously intelligent curious individuals because you're here to talk and
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ask questions and express concerns about three main areas of
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technology that will affect your future and your children's future. Now,
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for those of you who don't know, I'm Marianne de Macy,
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the science reporter well, one of the science reporters on
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ABC's science program called catalyst,
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and I'll be facilitating the session for the next couple of well,
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the next hour or so. So I just want to gauge,
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does everybody know who they're sitting with on their tables?
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I'd just give you 10 seconds to turn around and introduce yourself.
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So the people you're with up there on the top, turn to your left,
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turn to your right, introduce yourselves, is everybody on the top level?
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Can they hear me now? Yeah, that's better.
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All right.
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This is a really great venue to exchange ideas.
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We're at the science exchange of course,
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and RAs has been most gracious in hosting us.
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This is a really rare opportunity for the general public to come face-to-face
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with scientists to ask the tough questions and to express concerns,
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because these will be technologies that may or may not affect you in the future.
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They could be in a good way, or it could be in a bad way.
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It's up to you to decide today. And as I said,
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really take advantage of this opportunity to ask the experts,
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all the questions you can.
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I want to kick off today by introducing Dr. Stefan Hajkowicz.
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Is that how you pronounce it?
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He wouldn't tell me how to pronounce his surname. He wanted to embarrass myself,
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give me a score out of 10.
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He's too Hajkowicz is that better?
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Stefan is the CSS principal scientist at CSRO who likes to think about how
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people make choices and plan for an uncertain future.
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So could you please welcome him to the stage?
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Thank you very much. It's really good for me to be back here in Adelaide.
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I actually spent the early part of my CSRO career working at the
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CSRO offices near only in a suburb called Glen Osmond. I think it was,
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which was a fantastic spot.
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And I lived near the Hague's chocolate factory for quite a while,
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which has mostly come off. And I love being at the ideas festival.
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We had a Brisbane ideas festival recently as well,
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and I had to do a talk there in my elder brother, lives down south,
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found out about it and Kamia called. And he said,
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so someone up in Brisbane had an idea. So you had a festival. Got it.
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Which is I'm sure. No, that was pretty cool,
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but I'm sure they Adelaide, this festival is not about that.
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I'm sure there's lots of ideas down here already,
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and there's no need to celebrate them.
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But it is great to see such a big audience here to talk about science.
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So I'm on this ministerial advisory panel called nets national enabling
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technology strategy, and it's a fantastic job.
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My colleagues are here today and we have this fantastic job to sit around and
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think and talk and write about the future of technology,
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how it's going to change the way Australians live and also what we can do about
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it to maximize the upside and avoid any risks.
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So it's a fantastic opportunity I've got on there.
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And we went for a walk down Gouger street yesterday to see many of the great
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restaurants that are in Adelaide.
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Is it true that Adelaide has more restaurants per capita than any other
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Australian city? I think it is. And better ones too. I really do.
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I do love eating here. Just not talk about barrels.
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That's what I've been told to do,
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not talking about barrels that we'll say seriously though.
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We were walking down the Gouda street and we found that a Tapper spot,
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which was a really good one.
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And we got this discussion going and it lasted most of the night.
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It was a debate and a fairly one-sided one. I had six versus five versus one.
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I was the one and we were talking about whether or not a surf board could be
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considered a form of technology. And I was sure it wasn't.
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And I would wonder what,
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who in the audience here would call a surf board technology,
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if you would put your hand up who would not call a surfboard technology?
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Well, right, so I'm going to have to have a rethink,
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but well now I feel a lot more technologically savvy when I get down there and
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go out for a surf cause that's, that's good. But to me,
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a surf board wasn't technology nor was a fork nor was a brick.
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No was a piano that we walked past max. Now that stuff was technology to me.
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Technology to me is my Blackberry I-pads planes and fancy sorts of stuff.
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So I'll have to have a bit of a think about what technology is too young.
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I'm older than I look. So I think my,
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my view of technology, might've been a popular as to wine informed by my mum.
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So a while back at Christmas, we bought mum an iPod.
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She's not really into technology. She opened up the,
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the packet was started to see what was in there. And she took a pier and see,
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she looked and said, oh, is it technology? You've got me? And we kind of said,
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it probably is.
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And the iPod now sits between the Russian doll and the portrait of the Pope in
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the in the house and both the Pope and the dog get more use than the icon,
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but it was interesting to see the effect of technology on it.
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And as you might've seen, I work at CSI.
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I've had a fantastic career the last 10 years in CSRO,
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but I'm a little bit of an odd ball in the organization in that I'm a,
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I'm a social scientist with severe Luddite tendencies.
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And Senate would have interesting about where I ended up,
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but I work amongst thousands of incredibly brainy people who build live and
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breathe technology.
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We have flying robots that can go out and fix power poles without anyone knowing
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about it.
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We've had another team build invisible fences on farms where the cows know where
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to walk and they all stay in the right bed.
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I think a bit secretly they get one or two electric shocks if they wander on the
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wrong part, but we don't really talk about that part of the technology.
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It's fantastic stuff about what it can do.
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So I've had this great journey in CSRO and in CSI, one of my favorite holidays,
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I mean, work projects was in the cook islands.
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And this photo behind is showing us Rarotonga in the cook islands,
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which is a beautiful place where I was put for a month.
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And the downside of being here was while I was there,
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we had these massive cyclones four really big cyclines come across in the space
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of one month. And
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the I, I was there to work out the economic cost of water pollution,
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which wasn't related to the cyclines,
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but on the arrival of the first night when we had the first cycle and I was
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staying in a little hotel by the side of the water.
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And my hotel manager was an old guy, a weather beaten sailor from way back.
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And he took it very seriously.
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He bought himself a whole lot of bottles of whiskey and got completely hammered
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and left me to my own devices. So I bought a lot of tin corn beef instead,
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which I think did a lot more damage and and some water.
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And we got through the first cycle.
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And then there was another one which was category three cycle and Nancy,
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which was pretty awful.
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And in New Zealand sent in an evacuation flight to get us all out before the
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next one came,
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which was cycling all F which was a category five monster on the map of the
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whole Pacific. Everything was clouded with a.in the middle,
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and this was going to be a huge, huge cycling.
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So this huge plan and came through the air of Boeing 7 47,
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incredible piece of technology came in and landed on the runway.
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And it really moved us a lot to,
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to foot the thought that they had come and found us out there in the Pacific,
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on this tiny little country at Bailey, you know,
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stopped before it came off the edge of the runway. Everyone got on,
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turned around and took off and I kind of missed it.
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And that's me photographing at going and wondering where I can buy some whiskey
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that night because I'm in a lot of trouble.
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But it was an incredible piece why I love the photo though,
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and what it what it does for me is the juxtaposition of this incredible piece of
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technology which is worth more than the GDP of the whole cook islands with the
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simple mud huts behind it. And basic ways of living simple cooking instruments,
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basic lifestyles, and it is amazing how humans have progressed.
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I think a Boeing 7 47 and flight jet is an
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icon of the heat of human capabilities.
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It's also complex the system that allows this plane to fly safely from Rarotonga
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to Oakland. It happens again and again
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it's built upon systems that operate systems that operate other systems that no
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human being can possibly hope to understand how it works,
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but every time it comes together and it works and 350 people with all their
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luggage zoom safely across the ocean at 900 kilometers an hour,
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and have many kilometers in the sky watching movies and sipping tea.
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I find it fascinating.
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What I'd love to do for an experiment would be to get this technology and bring
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it back 200 years and show it to the first fleet who arrived in Australia,
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you know, after their year long, something like year long,
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voyage losing a third or a quarter of their crew to disease and accidents
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they arrived at after a perilous journey.
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We'll imagine if you could show them the inside of the Quantas,
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83 80 taking that trip with a stop in Singapore,
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24 hour trip to get to Brisbane.
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So I think that is an incredible change we've seen in 200 years.
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What about the next 200 years?
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The rate of technological progress has not slowed.
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It's advanced and it's moving us into new areas.
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The one that's caught my attention lately and was the one at the Brisbane ideas
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festival was about telomerase. Okay.
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This was discovered by Elizabeth Blackburn who won the Nobel prize for it.
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She's a Tasmanian based scientist, which is a great thing.
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And she's got the Nobel prize for finding that the enzymes that control the
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alien aging process in our cells called telomeres.
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Now they manipulated them in mice and they've got some old mice and made them
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young again, and they can do it in humans, potentially.
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Maybe this sort of goes outside my area expertise.
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So you need to Google this and look it up on Wikipedia to be sure,
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but I think it means we can all be young and beautiful again,
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is what I read anyway via the manipulation of telomeres.
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But I understand there's a downside to the technology and it gives us cancer
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instead. So don't rush off and get it done straight away.
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There might be a workaround though. So technology is great,
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but I don't think we ever escaped being human. Steve jobs was a brilliant human.
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He changed the world.
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We live in and will always be remembered throughout history.
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His journey was the iPhone, iPod, iPhone iPad. Then I died.
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Technology can stop that even for someone like him,
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but there is a flip side.
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Technology can sometimes hold it off like many here in the audience today.
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I was a Syrian section birth, and I think the, and my kids were as well.
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And I think the technology that surrounds C-section,
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but it's incredible what that medical team did in the Wesley hospital in only 10
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minutes, just is something we'll remember for the rest of our lives.
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And it's really a humbling to think of how technology and those skills came
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together to give us our children.
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And everyone has a lot of moments with their children pushing Madeline on the
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swing, playing soccer with the kids, those sorts of things. Everyone does.
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These moments don't have anything to do with the technology,
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but had that technology not existed, they wouldn't there. And nor would I,
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so technology can make things possible that are intangible and beautiful and not
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technological.
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So now I want to hand over to my colleagues to explore where some technologies
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will take us a question I have is,
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are we using these technologies to take us where we want to go?
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Or are they taking us somewhere? Or is it a bit of both?
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So maybe reflect on that as we see some of the fascinating presentations about
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new technologies that lie ahead of us. Thank you very much and have a great day.
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[Inaudible].
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Do you stand for that? Footworking talk. You,
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didn't made a point about how the rate of technology advancements is increasing.
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And if we look at a technology 50 years ago and think about how technology will
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change in the next 50 years, the sky's the limit.
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It'll be interesting to see how everybody feels about science and technology.
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You've got clicker pads in front of you.
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So let's do a quick survey now and we'll compare this survey to
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how you feel about science and technology at the end of this session and see
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whether or not you feel more passionate about it,
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whether you feel more anxious about it or whether or not it's just confirmed
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your thoughts. So with your clicker pads at the ready,
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the first question is which of the following three statements best
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sums up your attitude.
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Let's get this going,
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which of the following three statements best sums up your attitude towards the
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developments in science and technology
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got 10 seconds to answer. You can register that when you click a pad.
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Yep. Is it? You want me to read through them?
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Number one makes science makes a very positive contribution.
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Science has both positive and negative impacts on society or science largely
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has a negative impact on society. How do you feel
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everyone happy with her on some go to the next one? Well,
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we'll look at the result. Okay.
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So 60% of you believe that it has
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both positive and negative impact on society.
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Many of you believe it has a positive contribution.
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There's some of you that think it has a negative impact on society.
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Oh, I believe that if you want to change your mind,
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you can just press another number and it will take the last number
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as your answer. Yeah. All right. Next question.
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Which best describes your general attitudes towards the potential implications
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of enabling technologies like biotechnology and nanotechnology.
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Do you feel excited, hopeful, neutral, concerned,
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or alarmed? Okay. So look at the
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work. Ah, hang on.
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Technology's not great. Is it all right?
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So about half of us feel hopeful. Many of us are excited.
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No, one's alarmed about it. There's a few that are concerned.
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Does anyone want to express some concerns who pressed concerned? Yup.
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Yup. We've got an expert in nanotechnology coming up on the panel next.
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So you can address some of those concerns. Let's go to the next question.
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Who should be the primary decision makers about permitting the use of enabling
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technologies? Should it be the scientists,
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should it be regulated by the industry non-government
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regulate non elected government regulators,
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elected government regulators.
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Oops. Did we even vote?
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Can we go back and start again
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in the unsure category
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now if I press forward who's
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so how so have you cleared the data? Okay.
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We'll go to the next one. It's technology really is failing us.
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All right. So that was the last of our questions I believe. Yep. All right.
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Let's get to the first the first scenario here.
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This is about regenerative medicine.
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What we'll have is a two and a half minute video.
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It will just explain what it's about,
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and then we'll get an expert panel up on the stage to answer your questions.
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So if we can cue the video.
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We're all getting old. Yes.
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Even year one more of our population are over 60,
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some living well into their nineties. And as we live longer at joints,
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organs and tissues begin to fail there by diminishing the quality of our
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old age,
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not to mention the societal cost of lost productivity and longterm care.
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Our current medical technologies allow for extraordinary feats of all
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mentation and replacement transplantation,
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pacemakers and artificial joints.
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Regenerative medicine goes further promising the repair of dysfunctional body
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parts with our own living tissue.
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Many species can regenerate a salamander can regrow its limbs
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tail and even its own.
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But sadly only a few bits of us like a healthy liver can perform
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trick coaxing the rest of our body to do it requires more effort,
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3d printed, biomaterial,
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scaffolds coated with layers of the patient's cells and cooked up in a
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body mimicking oven can produce viable veins,
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bladders and bone and more complex organs like kidneys.
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Aren't far away,
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adult stem cells while proving difficult to tame promise injectable
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repairs for conditions like multiple sclerosis type one diabetes,
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heart disease, and rheumatoid arthritis
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techniques incorporating nanotechnology are also targeting spinal injuries,
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joint degeneration, and failing organs,
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but in the world already burdened with overpopulation.
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Is it even ethical to invest and encourage extended longevity?
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Will our culture slow or stagnate without retirement or death of the old
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guard? Yeah.
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Whilst our expert panel assembles on the stage,
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we'll do a quick survey on how people feel about the video that they've watched.
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So if you get your clicker pads ready,
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there's a response to whether or not you think that regenerative medicine
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would likely change the way you live by 2020,
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or would not likely change the way you live.
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So the response, Okay.
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So many of you Will believe that it would change the way you live by
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2020, 47% Wouldn't Keith,
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would you like to comment?
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Well, I think those those numbers are probably what they've expected.
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I think there is I mean, as I look at it,
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I think this is one of the most exciting areas in science at the moment.
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It's about bringing together people from a whole range of disciplines to
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tackle clinically relevant and important issues. And it's not just about aging.
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I think that a lot of what regenerative medicine is about and regenerative
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medicine comes in many forms, whether it's stem,
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cell biology or tissue engineering even bringing together
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biological and pharmaceuticals with devices and things. It's a very,
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it's a very large area, but I think it's a,
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it's a very exciting one and it can actually start to tackle diseases that we
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really don't have a clinical answer for at the moment.
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And that's what I think is more exciting than the fact that, you know,
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I might get hip replacement. I can still play golf when I'm 90.
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I think it's much more exciting to me and people in my team are working on
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things like methods to help kids with type one diabetes.
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Can we bring cells together with materials, for instance,
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implant those in the body and restore the ability to to treat things like type
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one diabetes. So to me,
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that's where the real excitement is meeting unmet clinical need.
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So introduction to you Keith Dr. Keith McClain is the
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leader theme leader in biomaterials and regenerative medicine at Syros
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materials, science and engineering. We've also on the panel,
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got professor Max Lu who has a technical expertise and insight
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into nanotechnology and biotechnologies,
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and also professor Sue Dods.
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She will provide some legal and ethical issues about this type of technology.
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So let's open the floor now to a discussion about regenerative
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medicine. Does anybody have any questions to start the discussion of
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whether he wants to do the front here? We'll just wait for the microphone.
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We've got a roving microphone.
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Timing. Every time you see an announcement about regenerative medicine,
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it is at least 10 years in the future. This is 2011.
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So 2020, where,
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where will we be then? That makes it so different.
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Keith, would you like to us?
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Very good question. And I mean, you know, there's always a bit of, that's all,
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there's a lot of hope and hyphen in,
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in a lot of this stuff that I think we are now starting to see, for instance,
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in the area of cell therapies, we're now actually starting to see cells being,
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being applied in a, in a number of early clinical trials.
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Recently there's been, you know,
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reports of embryonic stem cells being implanted in the phase one clinical trial
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by Jeroen in, in the U S people are using stem cells in,
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in areas like treating macular degeneration. Again, very early stage.
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I think within Australia,
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we should be exceptionally proud that we have in visa blast the largest
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stem cell company in the world using adult stem cells in a number of
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conditions in phase two and phase three clinical trial. So I think there is,
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there is great hope in, in, in that sort of cellular therapy area.
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But I think also in other parts of, of regenerative medicine in,
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in tissue engineering, there are already examples of,
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of people who are having materials implanted in the body that carry their
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own, their own cells.
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For instance there's a recent case of implantation of a material
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developed in Kings college,
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in London where the patient's own stem cells being used in a attractional
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replacement. So there are, there are,
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there are things coming into the clinic then at the same time,
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some of the traditional approaches to regenerative medicine
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you know, around implantable materials for things like hips and things,
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there's a lot of work going on at the moment to make those materials much more
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responsive. So 50 years ago, when,
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when materials first were implanted in the body,
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you basically wanted something that was in that and that the body didn't respond
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to it didn't, it didn't it didn't want to sort of wall it off.
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And it basically was there as a mechanical support.
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Now we're starting to work on materials that actually biological signals,
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so that if you put that material into the body,
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you may actually help to recruit cells that will will repair.
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You may use it to deliver growth factors for instance,
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or you may use it to deliver small molecules.
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So I think that is you know, there's always a,
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a great expectation. Often there is a lot of hype associated with these things,
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but I think there are definitely there's is definitely progress being made and
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that things will change in the next few years. I'm pretty sure. So.
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Just picking up on that max,
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can you describe how sophisticated these scaffoldings they
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use in regenerative medicine are?
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Okay. my background is nanotechnology.
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I'm not an expert in regenerative medicine per se.
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I think what is exciting to me is the emergence of nanotechnology and
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also genetic,
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no human genome and genetic engineering will catalyze or accelerated development
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of tissue engineering.
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The promise of tissue to replace the whole body organs has not been
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realized so far,
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but the tissue scaffolds built by
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nanotechnology or enhance the growth of the cells.
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And therefore also will give you the ability to deliver
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proteins and other nutrients we,
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without any infection and also innovating
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or reducing the immune response.
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So that's where the nanotechnologies promise is.
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I think it's always takes time when you want to deliver a new
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driver or a new a therapy because of the regulatory framework.
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I think we have the experts and dies in areas.
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So I think 10 year timeframe in medicine is a very short,
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I think a lot of the blockbuster drugs came out.
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It will be after 20 years of continuous discovery and development. So,
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but nanotechnology has promised to catalyze the OT, a salary thing development.
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Sue,
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Do you think we'll see changes in regulation of the use of these stem cells in
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these types of technologies.
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Well Diana would be the expert on the regulatory frameworks,
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but I certainly think that we'll have to ask some questions about whether our
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existing regulatory frameworks stretch very well into the areas where we've got
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new ways of integrating devices,
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like the nano structured scaffolds with our own cells.
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Because we don't at the moment how much difficulty with recognizing if it takes
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themselves out of me and you put them back into me,
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but that doesn't require a specific regulation.
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But the question about how we bring these things together would certainly be an
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issue which might require for the regulation,
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but Diana May have anything she wants to add to that.
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Would you like to add something?
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Maybe we'll just wait for the microphone. So the people at the back can hear.
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From my perspective what Sue was saying is absolutely correct at the moment
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these type of applications that are regulated the therapeutic goods
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administration,
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which has very distinct classes between what are the therapeutic good and what
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is the medical device?
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So when we start to see a blaring between these two categories,
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that's when we're going to have issues over the effectiveness of such a
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regulatory framework.
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So these things are regulated and they will continue to be regulated,
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but it's how well have these technologies progress.
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And that just requires our regulators to be acutely aware of what is coming down
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the R and D pipeline rather than being responsive.
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When these products are really coming in for assessment.
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Is there anyone else that would like to ask a question?
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We've got one up the top there,
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Sorry could speak up a bit.
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Two basic questions. What are stem cells exactly?
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How are stem cells derived and how has
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menstruation blood as a salsa stem cells?
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Dr. Q?
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Well, I'm not, I'm not stem cell biologist, I'm a material scientist.
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So I'm not an expert in, in, in stem cells, biology per se.
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So I'm going to be careful about, about what I say all of them.
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Other than that there are essentially at the moment I think three main
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sources of stem cells. One is embryonic stem cells,
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which are derived from early stage blastocyst of
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of fertilized eggs that are no longer required in the
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in IVF type treatments. There are adult stem cells,
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which are found in all tissues of the body,
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which are small populations of cells,
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which have a regenerative capacity embryonic stem cells have
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the ability to basically develop into any
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any type of of, of tissue cell under the correct conditions.
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Adult stem cells tend to have limited.
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They have the ability to regenerate, but then limited,
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limited numbers of lineages.
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And recently there's been the development of induced pluripotent cells,
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whichever essentially differentiated cells like your skin cells or lung
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cells that can under certain conditions be driven back to an
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embryonic type state,
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and then can be driven down a different different lineage.
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So that is my basic understanding of the,
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of the different types of sentence stem cells.
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00:29:11.720 --> 00:29:14.000
Your question on that's right.
479
00:29:17.450 --> 00:29:18.560
Well, people are,
480
00:29:18.590 --> 00:29:23.420
people are actually have been banking things like port cord blood for a
481
00:29:23.421 --> 00:29:28.160
number of years. And there are companies that basically will do that for you,
482
00:29:28.161 --> 00:29:32.000
and it is a source of it certainly is a source of stem cells.
483
00:29:33.860 --> 00:29:38.210
So what are some of the ethical issues that we're facing around the use of these
484
00:29:38.390 --> 00:29:39.223
stem cells?
485
00:29:40.070 --> 00:29:41.830
Well certainly with embryonic stem cells?
486
00:29:42.130 --> 00:29:46.720
There's a considerable ethical debate about both for people who have
487
00:29:46.721 --> 00:29:51.160
concerns about destructive use of, of embryos for research.
488
00:29:51.460 --> 00:29:53.500
And that's one set of concerns.
489
00:29:53.740 --> 00:29:57.580
Another is about the way in which for women who may be
490
00:29:59.170 --> 00:30:02.950
have maybe undergoing IVF treatment and embryos are being developed for the
491
00:30:02.951 --> 00:30:03.910
purpose of having children.
492
00:30:03.911 --> 00:30:08.830
And then the question about consent or decision-making with regard to making
493
00:30:08.831 --> 00:30:13.570
those embryos available for research afterwards with regard to the
494
00:30:13.571 --> 00:30:17.650
question of the commodification of stem cells and questions about international
495
00:30:17.651 --> 00:30:19.510
trade in stem cell lines,
496
00:30:19.690 --> 00:30:23.440
that may be embryonic there's questions about whether we should be painting
497
00:30:24.430 --> 00:30:25.870
human tissues and voting time.
498
00:30:25.900 --> 00:30:29.680
And so some of the questions about the use of stem cell lines for that purpose
499
00:30:29.681 --> 00:30:34.240
comes up but further issues with regard to regenerative
500
00:30:34.241 --> 00:30:38.590
medicine also concerned things like the ways in which we make our decisions
501
00:30:38.591 --> 00:30:42.940
about focusing on trying to revive our treatments for existing conditions,
502
00:30:42.941 --> 00:30:46.570
as opposed to trying to prevent conditions and different ways in which we might
503
00:30:46.571 --> 00:30:49.060
use resource research resources. Now,
504
00:30:49.120 --> 00:30:53.020
each of those relates to a number of different kinds of ethical issues in
505
00:30:53.021 --> 00:30:56.800
different kinds of ethical frameworks that people might look to to start
506
00:30:56.801 --> 00:30:58.150
answering those questions.
507
00:30:58.601 --> 00:31:02.350
And some of those have to do with our concerns about the value of life,
508
00:31:02.380 --> 00:31:04.270
the value of aging, the value of,
509
00:31:04.300 --> 00:31:07.720
of health and the ways in which our shifts in
510
00:31:08.920 --> 00:31:13.060
availability of new medical technologies may change the way in which we live our
511
00:31:13.061 --> 00:31:16.870
lives and our attitudes towards health and our attitudes towards, you know,
512
00:31:17.230 --> 00:31:19.660
should I worry about my liver, if it can be regenerated?
513
00:31:19.780 --> 00:31:22.780
So I'll have some more beautiful south Australian wine you know,
514
00:31:22.810 --> 00:31:25.570
those sorts of concerns. And, and similarly, I think that,
515
00:31:25.690 --> 00:31:27.250
that the type one diabetes issues,
516
00:31:27.640 --> 00:31:31.450
those are cases where it's not so much a function of lifestyle,
517
00:31:31.451 --> 00:31:33.820
but other areas in diabetes type two diabetes,
518
00:31:34.120 --> 00:31:38.620
where should we stop worrying about eating properly and getting good exercise
519
00:31:38.621 --> 00:31:42.790
and avoiding obesity? If it's the case that regeneration is, is is possible.
520
00:31:43.330 --> 00:31:44.770
I don't think we're at that stage yet,
521
00:31:44.771 --> 00:31:47.860
but he can see how people would see those as raising different kinds of ethics
522
00:31:48.450 --> 00:31:48.960
wishes.
523
00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:50.970
Okay. What else back there.
524
00:31:51.870 --> 00:31:55.770
How will regenerative medicine be used to treat cancer?
525
00:31:58.500 --> 00:32:01.110
So there are a number of the number of areas, I guess,
526
00:32:01.111 --> 00:32:04.680
related to regenerative medicine that, that are starting to impact on,
527
00:32:04.770 --> 00:32:05.910
on cancer at the moment.
528
00:32:06.870 --> 00:32:10.290
One is the fact that we're now in a position where we're better,
529
00:32:10.470 --> 00:32:15.000
we're starting to develop better materials and approaches for actual diagnosis
530
00:32:15.210 --> 00:32:18.120
of cancer. And then also, I think,
531
00:32:18.150 --> 00:32:20.130
especially from an anti-technology point of view,
532
00:32:20.430 --> 00:32:24.840
we are starting to be able to target target materials
533
00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:28.080
that we can use to pinpoint where cancers are.
534
00:32:29.190 --> 00:32:32.850
And then you can actually potentially also deliver at the same time a drug that
535
00:32:33.100 --> 00:32:34.470
will, will treat that cancer.
536
00:32:34.900 --> 00:32:37.350
We've got much better imaging technology as well now,
537
00:32:37.351 --> 00:32:38.520
so that if you've actually,
538
00:32:38.790 --> 00:32:42.770
if you actually target cancer cells by using some marked
539
00:32:44.360 --> 00:32:45.800
nano material, for instance,
540
00:32:46.250 --> 00:32:50.570
you'd give the surgeon a better chance of actually clearing those those cancer
541
00:32:50.571 --> 00:32:55.160
cells. So I think that the, the main area in cancer,
542
00:32:55.161 --> 00:32:59.470
I think at the moment is around being able to detect it and also personalize it
543
00:32:59.840 --> 00:33:01.850
probably in the, in the not too distant future.
544
00:33:03.110 --> 00:33:05.780
In terms of then you know,
545
00:33:06.050 --> 00:33:09.110
re re replacing that, that tissue.
546
00:33:10.100 --> 00:33:14.030
That's certainly a possibility that will that exists at the moment,
547
00:33:14.031 --> 00:33:18.170
but will increase. I think, in, in using reconstructive
548
00:33:19.670 --> 00:33:24.560
scaffolds for instance that can deliver tissue that's being grown in the lab.
549
00:33:24.561 --> 00:33:27.650
I knew that people at the out of Brian in Melbourne for instance, are,
550
00:33:28.010 --> 00:33:32.780
are developing approaches to basically grow fat from
551
00:33:33.140 --> 00:33:36.230
from stem cells that can then be used as a,
552
00:33:36.350 --> 00:33:40.100
as an orientation for when women who cut disectomy is for instance.
553
00:33:43.720 --> 00:33:48.400
I just want to add in terms of the agnostic of the
554
00:33:48.401 --> 00:33:50.260
early detection of cancer,
555
00:33:50.560 --> 00:33:54.280
nanotechnology has a lot to offer in terms of the
556
00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:59.800
nanoparticles tailored for detection
557
00:33:59.890 --> 00:34:02.770
in terms of the imaging contrast agent,
558
00:34:03.190 --> 00:34:06.850
as well as the added as type of imaging diagnostics,
559
00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:10.840
as well as the ability to deliver the payload of
560
00:34:12.190 --> 00:34:16.300
chemotherapy drugs, to the target regard,
561
00:34:16.750 --> 00:34:20.230
Jan overdosing without killing the good cells.
562
00:34:20.470 --> 00:34:22.990
So there's a lot of work carrying your arm. In fact,
563
00:34:23.170 --> 00:34:27.970
there are several drugs already on the market that used the nanoparticle
564
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:32.260
as the the carrier in terms of the
565
00:34:32.261 --> 00:34:35.800
regeneration of the damage to cells or tissues.
566
00:34:36.160 --> 00:34:41.020
I think you can do a hybrid system that delivering the cells and the nutrients,
567
00:34:41.400 --> 00:34:44.680
along with it, to the region where you had the cancer.
568
00:34:44.980 --> 00:34:47.200
So while you're killing the cancer cells,
569
00:34:47.470 --> 00:34:52.450
it can also facilitate or enhance the growth of the good cells surrounding
570
00:34:52.451 --> 00:34:53.560
them. That region.
571
00:34:54.720 --> 00:34:55.331
Max a little earlier,
572
00:34:55.331 --> 00:34:59.590
we had a concern voiced about nanotechnology and the safety of it.
573
00:34:59.620 --> 00:35:02.320
How can we keep track of these particles that since they're so small?
574
00:35:03.250 --> 00:35:05.800
That's, that's a very good guy and a valid consent.
575
00:35:05.801 --> 00:35:08.530
I think like any other new technology,
576
00:35:08.531 --> 00:35:12.460
you have to be concerned with the responsible use of such a technology,
577
00:35:12.790 --> 00:35:17.320
but people tend to associate with the hazards or the
578
00:35:17.321 --> 00:35:18.760
racism nanotechnology,
579
00:35:18.761 --> 00:35:23.050
or for that metaphor GMOs from that as technology,
580
00:35:23.800 --> 00:35:27.370
if you associate with just free form nanoparticles,
581
00:35:27.700 --> 00:35:31.630
and that's perhaps that is the, an area that we should be concerned,
582
00:35:32.110 --> 00:35:36.970
but most of the nanotechnology products or nanotechnology as in technology
583
00:35:38.250 --> 00:35:39.530
that we're resolving to products,
584
00:35:39.780 --> 00:35:42.840
materials that we use for regenerative medicine, for example,
585
00:35:43.590 --> 00:35:44.880
they are not in free form.
586
00:35:45.270 --> 00:35:50.200
They actually self-assembled into classes or into a certain material that
587
00:35:50.520 --> 00:35:55.280
scaffolds that will will contend the menopause article with say,
588
00:35:55.440 --> 00:35:58.420
dispersion or diffusion. So, you know,
589
00:35:58.680 --> 00:36:03.630
way that you have to have the nanoparticles assemble into those
590
00:36:03.631 --> 00:36:06.180
scaffolds, they have to be compatible.
591
00:36:07.110 --> 00:36:10.650
They had done they should not exhibit any settled toxicity.
592
00:36:10.770 --> 00:36:14.520
So you have to choose the materials Calfee first,
593
00:36:14.521 --> 00:36:18.450
and then you have to look at the effects of their size.
594
00:36:18.810 --> 00:36:22.140
So if they are free form, they can be done yours. You know,
595
00:36:22.141 --> 00:36:24.430
you have to look at the facts of those particles,
596
00:36:24.490 --> 00:36:29.100
whether they be persistent in the system or getting into the blood system and
597
00:36:29.101 --> 00:36:32.370
empathy for a long time or not, if they passed away, pass out,
598
00:36:32.760 --> 00:36:37.140
we didn't say the normal sort of the period, any tropical pass out,
599
00:36:37.210 --> 00:36:38.670
that's a little less of consent.
600
00:36:39.030 --> 00:36:43.920
So we have to invest in research in this area and also in the
601
00:36:43.921 --> 00:36:48.330
regulatory fluid build the the safeguards into those.
602
00:36:50.280 --> 00:36:54.260
Okay. Anyone else want to go probably time for two more questions?
603
00:36:55.130 --> 00:36:58.880
I wonder in terms of technology changing, the way we live,
604
00:36:59.180 --> 00:37:03.350
we all individually want to leave. We are living better and longer,
605
00:37:03.650 --> 00:37:07.300
and we all appreciate technology. I wonder
606
00:37:08.990 --> 00:37:09.830
countries are,
607
00:37:09.831 --> 00:37:14.810
we prepare for bodies about to come in terms of having very large populations
608
00:37:15.830 --> 00:37:19.820
very high percentage of people that are 90, a hundred,
609
00:37:19.910 --> 00:37:23.630
120 in terms of aged care,
610
00:37:23.660 --> 00:37:27.950
social interaction technology is moving so quickly,
611
00:37:28.220 --> 00:37:32.930
but we socially or biologically, we can't adapt so quickly.
612
00:37:33.080 --> 00:37:35.750
What are we doing for that,
613
00:37:35.751 --> 00:37:40.100
that is happening or is about to happen in the next 10, 20, 30 years?
614
00:37:40.700 --> 00:37:41.570
That's an excellent question.
615
00:37:41.780 --> 00:37:45.170
And I think that is the big challenge for us. I mean,
616
00:37:45.171 --> 00:37:48.950
one reason why we're interested in issues of regenerative medicine is so that as
617
00:37:48.951 --> 00:37:50.540
we live longer, we live healthier.
618
00:37:51.620 --> 00:37:54.380
But is it the case that the reason we're living longer is because we live
619
00:37:54.381 --> 00:37:55.760
healthier and therefore,
620
00:37:56.150 --> 00:38:00.530
are we having a shift in the way in which we understand what constitutes or work
621
00:38:00.830 --> 00:38:03.170
life? I mean, people are now working longer. And we actually,
622
00:38:03.440 --> 00:38:07.130
with the shift in demography as a result of the end of the baby, boom,
623
00:38:07.131 --> 00:38:10.910
we need to actually continue to be parts of a society in which we are
624
00:38:10.911 --> 00:38:12.080
economically active,
625
00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:17.330
but do we need to rethink whether economic activity is all about consumption of
626
00:38:17.331 --> 00:38:20.810
resources within a society where we need to have questions about environmental
627
00:38:20.811 --> 00:38:25.190
sustainability and we'll get onto questions about food security and those sorts
628
00:38:25.191 --> 00:38:25.641
of issues.
629
00:38:25.641 --> 00:38:30.620
So how do we shift to a world in which the specific
630
00:38:30.650 --> 00:38:34.850
concern of an individual who might benefit from regenerative medicine?
631
00:38:35.050 --> 00:38:37.570
We do have a whole set of,
632
00:38:37.580 --> 00:38:41.290
of personal interests in being healthy and being able to restore health,
633
00:38:41.530 --> 00:38:42.460
but at the same time,
634
00:38:42.461 --> 00:38:47.200
the population effects in terms of the ways in which we actually have access
635
00:38:47.201 --> 00:38:49.030
to living a decent life.
636
00:38:49.270 --> 00:38:53.620
Especially if at the moment most regenerative medicine is available in rich
637
00:38:53.621 --> 00:38:56.830
countries. It's not available in the majority for the majority of people.
638
00:38:57.130 --> 00:39:01.120
How do we address that concern of actually ensuring we're not
639
00:39:01.330 --> 00:39:03.130
creating a system,
640
00:39:03.310 --> 00:39:06.960
systematic injustice with regard to people's life expectancies and,
641
00:39:07.090 --> 00:39:10.840
and the kind of lives they can live. That's a really big, fantastic issue.
642
00:39:10.841 --> 00:39:15.520
And it is one I think we all need to be thinking about in terms of what is it to
643
00:39:15.521 --> 00:39:17.500
live longer for an individual,
644
00:39:17.501 --> 00:39:21.490
what is it for a society to see its population should happen?
645
00:39:21.700 --> 00:39:25.810
And how do we allocate resources within that kind of environment?
646
00:39:26.020 --> 00:39:28.480
Do you have personal views about how we should make that shift?
647
00:39:28.570 --> 00:39:33.220
I certainly think that we need to talk a lot more about the ways in which
648
00:39:33.250 --> 00:39:34.780
aging changes,
649
00:39:34.781 --> 00:39:38.080
how we understand ourselves and that we're not just biological organisms,
650
00:39:38.110 --> 00:39:42.220
that we need to understand that discussion in terms of who am I going to be
651
00:39:42.280 --> 00:39:45.100
aging with, will all of my friends be aging with me,
652
00:39:45.101 --> 00:39:49.270
or am I going to be the last one standing at 150? I don't want to be there.
653
00:39:50.620 --> 00:39:53.770
Is it the case that I can have an engaged life,
654
00:39:53.800 --> 00:39:57.910
or am I merely going to be alive in a hothouse sort of sense?
655
00:39:58.210 --> 00:40:03.010
And how do we make sure that when we're doing that kind of social planning
656
00:40:03.460 --> 00:40:06.490
that we actually imagine what those lives will look like and do,
657
00:40:06.491 --> 00:40:09.640
are we going to end up splitting between the healthy age, the people who,
658
00:40:09.850 --> 00:40:12.400
you know, right now, or eating fantastically well,
659
00:40:12.401 --> 00:40:15.520
looking after themselves and what they need is sort of the support for their
660
00:40:15.521 --> 00:40:18.220
joints so that the body hangs out as long as they can.
661
00:40:18.610 --> 00:40:22.000
And those who are aging unwell how do we avoid that?
662
00:40:22.750 --> 00:40:24.700
Okay. We've got time for one more question at the front there. Okay.
663
00:40:24.700 --> 00:40:25.324
Got one up here.
664
00:40:27.520 --> 00:40:28.353
Yep.
665
00:40:30.390 --> 00:40:35.310
Technologies turn out always much different from what we expect 10
666
00:40:35.311 --> 00:40:38.130
years ago. We weren't talking about iPads and now we have iPads.
667
00:40:38.131 --> 00:40:41.790
So the technology that affects the most is the least expected,
668
00:40:41.791 --> 00:40:42.870
most circumstances.
669
00:40:43.350 --> 00:40:47.850
So what would you speculate about unintended consequences of this
670
00:40:47.851 --> 00:40:48.684
development?
671
00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:51.540
Max, you can go first on this one.
672
00:40:54.540 --> 00:40:57.440
Both negative and positive as a tribute to Steve jobs.
673
00:40:58.030 --> 00:41:00.120
We all appreciate the gadgets that we have,
674
00:41:00.121 --> 00:41:04.260
and they've actually made our life much easier and not,
675
00:41:04.380 --> 00:41:09.090
not always better for everyone, but I think,
676
00:41:09.390 --> 00:41:13.350
you know, as any technology, even, even terms of technology,
677
00:41:13.830 --> 00:41:16.890
you have the upsides and downsides, right?
678
00:41:16.891 --> 00:41:19.830
So depending on how you make use of the technology.
679
00:41:20.430 --> 00:41:24.840
So in terms of the regenerative medicine or nano technology in general
680
00:41:25.860 --> 00:41:30.660
we can't predict what exactly we will end up in 10 years
681
00:41:30.661 --> 00:41:33.920
time. However, there are a lot of promises like this.
682
00:41:33.921 --> 00:41:36.620
Also a lot of issues such as the safety issues,
683
00:41:36.621 --> 00:41:41.270
and as long as we are conscious of those issues and work hat on addressing those
684
00:41:41.271 --> 00:41:46.190
issues while we develop, I think we are a more confident about the future.
685
00:41:46.580 --> 00:41:50.660
So I guess in terms of self to geeking the future,
686
00:41:50.740 --> 00:41:55.580
and we have a foresight exercise the national emerging technology
687
00:41:55.581 --> 00:41:57.200
strategy expert forum,
688
00:41:57.470 --> 00:42:02.450
my colleague was here led by around Johnson is looking into
689
00:42:02.451 --> 00:42:07.010
those issues, you know, the time horizon. So five years, 10 years,
690
00:42:07.011 --> 00:42:08.960
20 years and 50 years.
691
00:42:09.380 --> 00:42:13.220
So I think foresight can better inform us
692
00:42:14.690 --> 00:42:19.490
on the pathways of technology and therefore, and identify issues,
693
00:42:19.610 --> 00:42:24.080
concerns that exactly, as you had to talk to God,
694
00:42:24.170 --> 00:42:27.980
the policy development thought investment guiding industry development
695
00:42:28.340 --> 00:42:30.890
towards the better use of technology,
696
00:42:31.490 --> 00:42:35.750
the positive outcomes have to add, but I think, I think it's not unexpected,
697
00:42:35.960 --> 00:42:38.710
but it is a dried product. Ipad is just an example.
698
00:42:38.710 --> 00:42:42.760
What I'm getting at is the unintended consequences of development.
699
00:42:43.150 --> 00:42:45.070
That's the general motion here. I mean,
700
00:42:45.100 --> 00:42:49.750
do we ever get to a point where we can comfortably say [inaudible].
701
00:42:49.770 --> 00:42:53.260
Debate about nuclear energy back to, you know any of these things,
702
00:42:53.290 --> 00:42:57.370
but I think mankind has benefited from technology from history
703
00:42:57.880 --> 00:43:00.770
much, much more then the,
704
00:43:00.771 --> 00:43:04.540
the negative and the negative impacts that we had, you know.
705
00:43:04.720 --> 00:43:08.920
So you're saying the benefits outweigh the negatives. Yep, yep, yep, yep. Okay.
706
00:43:09.310 --> 00:43:12.580
Maybe one optimistic. Yeah. I have one quick question at the back.
707
00:43:12.581 --> 00:43:13.450
That's all we've got time for.
708
00:43:13.870 --> 00:43:16.000
My name's Leslie, I'm a rural GP in the morning.
709
00:43:16.001 --> 00:43:17.710
I actually live with the man in the straight shirt,
710
00:43:17.980 --> 00:43:19.630
but I've got a few questions for the panel.
711
00:43:19.900 --> 00:43:23.410
I'd like to know what I'll be doing in 10 or 11 years when I'm sitting in my
712
00:43:23.411 --> 00:43:27.520
general practice, thinking of at the moment, the rural city divide,
713
00:43:27.521 --> 00:43:29.110
which is already quite dramatic,
714
00:43:29.590 --> 00:43:32.560
I want to know who owns these stem cells and where they're going to come from
715
00:43:32.561 --> 00:43:36.820
and who the patent for them and what happens 20 years down the track when the
716
00:43:36.821 --> 00:43:39.280
environmental influences start to act again,
717
00:43:39.580 --> 00:43:42.920
do we go again or what happens once we've,
718
00:43:42.921 --> 00:43:45.310
we've done something and then we've got 20 years further on,
719
00:43:45.311 --> 00:43:47.020
we've got a bit of aging happening again.
720
00:43:48.510 --> 00:43:51.280
I'd like to begin the Sue, you're talking about who owns the stem cells?
721
00:43:51.370 --> 00:43:54.860
Sure. I mean, I certainly, we have a discussion about that. And,
722
00:43:54.870 --> 00:43:59.320
and it's interesting one where we've decided with regard to
723
00:43:59.770 --> 00:44:03.700
owning embryos that that's not something in Australia that we permit that,
724
00:44:03.730 --> 00:44:07.120
that the person who produces them can't on them, but the stem cell line,
725
00:44:07.180 --> 00:44:10.480
as you'd be aware is something which is ownable.
726
00:44:11.320 --> 00:44:12.550
And that's,
727
00:44:12.970 --> 00:44:16.870
it's arbitrary how we do that just as the urban sperm that might be used to
728
00:44:17.110 --> 00:44:21.970
create the embryo we treat as things which which can't be owned in the
729
00:44:21.971 --> 00:44:26.740
same kind of way as the the pharmaceutical that may come out of the stem cell
730
00:44:26.741 --> 00:44:31.620
line that does make the possibility of treating these as public goods
731
00:44:31.621 --> 00:44:34.080
or things, which we all have an interesting,
732
00:44:34.110 --> 00:44:38.580
or the people who have produced them have a specific interest in becomes a real
733
00:44:38.581 --> 00:44:41.880
issue and ethically, as opposed to in the, within the regulatory scheme,
734
00:44:42.180 --> 00:44:45.540
I think that we haven't yet unpacked the significance of that,
735
00:44:45.750 --> 00:44:50.490
especially in things like the use of cord cord blood for research purposes
736
00:44:50.820 --> 00:44:55.320
and the suggestion in some cases of poor banking that why I'm doing
737
00:44:55.500 --> 00:44:59.040
preserving my cord blood is so that my child's health or my own health can be a
738
00:44:59.041 --> 00:45:00.810
benefit in the future. But of course,
739
00:45:00.811 --> 00:45:05.400
if you're working in as a rural GP and someone gives birth out in a community,
740
00:45:05.430 --> 00:45:06.480
out in the distance,
741
00:45:06.510 --> 00:45:10.140
they won't have access to the capacity to have their cord blood stored,
742
00:45:10.530 --> 00:45:12.510
same issue happens on a global scale.
743
00:45:12.750 --> 00:45:17.220
And so the point I was making before about the question of the injustice that
744
00:45:17.370 --> 00:45:22.050
could come from focusing on the benefits to those
745
00:45:22.051 --> 00:45:23.130
in wealthy contexts,
746
00:45:23.220 --> 00:45:27.960
are those who have the access to the resources and ignoring the potential impact
747
00:45:27.961 --> 00:45:30.720
in terms of the broader community, I think is a really significant one.
748
00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:34.830
And I think the kind of question you're asking about access to healthcare in
749
00:45:34.831 --> 00:45:36.630
Australia outside, you know,
750
00:45:36.631 --> 00:45:39.780
a hundred kilometers outside of a major city is an ongoing one.
751
00:45:39.781 --> 00:45:43.170
And we'll get more exacerbated every time I suspect. Okay,
752
00:45:43.171 --> 00:45:45.810
that's a stimulating discussion, but that's all we have time for.
753
00:45:45.811 --> 00:45:48.210
So thank the panel for the moment. Thank you.
754
00:45:54.930 --> 00:45:58.800
Let's get onto our second scenario about zero emissions cities. Again,
755
00:45:58.801 --> 00:46:02.160
we've got the video and then we'll get our expert panel to come up on stage.
756
00:46:03.680 --> 00:46:07.580
Our buildings consume about 40% of our energy
757
00:46:08.810 --> 00:46:11.960
and with our emissions threatening to permanently change our climate,
758
00:46:12.530 --> 00:46:16.310
we need more efficient, better greener cities.
759
00:46:17.420 --> 00:46:21.590
We can start by being smarter with what we have passive solar buildings,
760
00:46:21.770 --> 00:46:25.490
public transit, private pedal, power, identity, living,
761
00:46:26.090 --> 00:46:26.990
and teleworking.
762
00:46:29.720 --> 00:46:33.380
But our food production is still a long way from most of the people who live in
763
00:46:33.381 --> 00:46:36.170
the cities built on the best arable land.
764
00:46:36.350 --> 00:46:40.490
Vertical farming could turn this on its head or at least its side.
765
00:46:40.880 --> 00:46:44.660
It would bring together a host of emerging technologies by putting food
766
00:46:44.661 --> 00:46:49.550
production on the buildings we live and working to reduce land, use coal,
767
00:46:49.730 --> 00:46:54.050
our oven, heat sinks and drastically reduce food. Transport costs.
768
00:46:55.040 --> 00:46:59.180
Modern agriculture uses 70% of the world's available, fresh water,
769
00:46:59.600 --> 00:47:04.460
but vertical farms could be fitted with nano films at boost condensation,
770
00:47:04.880 --> 00:47:08.720
and then our membranes would filter and clean recycled water,
771
00:47:09.530 --> 00:47:10.640
better water quality,
772
00:47:11.060 --> 00:47:16.010
less waste crop effectiveness will be boosted by genetic engineering
773
00:47:16.190 --> 00:47:19.010
to select the best genetic variants for the environment.
774
00:47:19.610 --> 00:47:24.080
Fiber optics might provide light with incredible energy efficiency,
775
00:47:24.980 --> 00:47:27.770
one square block, farm 30 stories.
776
00:47:27.771 --> 00:47:31.990
High could yield much food as 10 square kilometers
777
00:47:31.991 --> 00:47:36.370
outdoors. There are of course, hurdles,
778
00:47:36.730 --> 00:47:41.140
the crops best suited to vertical farming may require us to adjust our diets,
779
00:47:41.590 --> 00:47:46.300
but would farmers and agribusiness take this lying down or is it simply that our
780
00:47:46.301 --> 00:47:49.300
dollars are best spent on smart, simple,
781
00:47:49.360 --> 00:47:53.410
and practical improvements to existing infrastructure and technology?
782
00:47:55.830 --> 00:47:58.440
Let's see how everybody feels about this technology.
783
00:48:00.630 --> 00:48:04.890
Do you think that zero emissions cities would not likely change the way you live
784
00:48:04.891 --> 00:48:06.180
by 2020,
785
00:48:06.660 --> 00:48:10.530
or would you think it's likely to change the way you live by 2020?
786
00:48:10.560 --> 00:48:14.850
If you get your clicker pads and you can vote now you've got 10 seconds.
787
00:48:16.110 --> 00:48:20.370
Okay. And the results. Okay.
788
00:48:20.371 --> 00:48:23.340
65 35. It's a fair split.
789
00:48:24.570 --> 00:48:28.770
Let's introduce our next panel. Members,
790
00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:32.460
professor Ian Lowe the president of the Australian conservation foundation and
791
00:48:32.461 --> 00:48:37.350
also professor of science technology and society at Griffith university.
792
00:48:37.590 --> 00:48:39.930
We can welcome back max to the stage.
793
00:48:40.230 --> 00:48:44.370
And we've also heard from Dr. Dave Bowman.
794
00:48:45.870 --> 00:48:48.240
We'll talk about the legal and ethical inputs.
795
00:48:50.940 --> 00:48:54.690
Thank you. Now, Ian, you've got a comment about
796
00:48:56.230 --> 00:48:57.480
the video that we're just saying.
797
00:48:57.650 --> 00:49:00.020
Well, to give you value for money, I've actually got four comments.
798
00:49:01.130 --> 00:49:03.530
The first is that a food's important,
799
00:49:03.560 --> 00:49:07.910
but it's only a small fraction of the carbon dioxide emissions associated with
800
00:49:07.940 --> 00:49:12.140
urban living energy supply and use water transport,
801
00:49:12.790 --> 00:49:14.840
or about 90% of foods, about 10%.
802
00:49:14.841 --> 00:49:19.670
So while thinking about food is important, it's not the,
803
00:49:19.700 --> 00:49:20.690
not the big issue.
804
00:49:20.960 --> 00:49:24.020
It's not where I'd start in working towards zero emission cities.
805
00:49:24.380 --> 00:49:28.640
Second point is that it doesn't seem to me particularly rational to move people
806
00:49:28.641 --> 00:49:31.340
away from food producing land, into cities,
807
00:49:31.790 --> 00:49:35.060
and then devise high-tech ways of giving them the food that would have been
808
00:49:35.120 --> 00:49:37.520
available in their backyard if they'd stayed, where they lived.
809
00:49:37.940 --> 00:49:42.530
And the great thing about communications technology is it does offer the
810
00:49:42.531 --> 00:49:46.370
prospect, not just distributed energy, but distributed work,
811
00:49:46.371 --> 00:49:48.920
distributed productivity, distributed ideas.
812
00:49:49.970 --> 00:49:53.930
The only rational argument I think for spending $43 billion on the national
813
00:49:53.931 --> 00:49:58.880
broadband network is to allow people to work and communicate
814
00:49:58.881 --> 00:50:02.270
and study where they are rather than having to move to the cities.
815
00:50:03.080 --> 00:50:05.840
The third point I'd make is that we should have learned by now.
816
00:50:05.841 --> 00:50:08.390
You can never change only one thing in a complex system.
817
00:50:08.750 --> 00:50:13.190
So while I applaud research being done on nanotechnology,
818
00:50:13.191 --> 00:50:17.060
that can clean up water and genetically modified crops,
819
00:50:17.061 --> 00:50:18.590
that we be more productive.
820
00:50:18.920 --> 00:50:23.150
We need to recognize that there are always cost as well as benefits and often
821
00:50:23.480 --> 00:50:25.400
unforeseen side effects.
822
00:50:25.700 --> 00:50:30.410
So we really need proper technology impact assessment.
823
00:50:30.800 --> 00:50:32.180
I think it was Barry Jan said,
824
00:50:32.510 --> 00:50:36.290
we now have superficial environmental assessment and no social assessment at
825
00:50:36.291 --> 00:50:37.124
all.
826
00:50:37.730 --> 00:50:41.600
But new technologies often have more serious social impacts than environmental
827
00:50:42.260 --> 00:50:45.380
impacts. So we really need to take the impact. Seriously.
828
00:50:45.840 --> 00:50:47.540
The final point I'd make is that
829
00:50:49.310 --> 00:50:52.880
we really should be seeing the economy as a means to an end,
830
00:50:52.881 --> 00:50:54.350
rather than an end in itself,
831
00:50:54.710 --> 00:50:58.190
that there are other things that we expect from society that are probably more
832
00:50:58.191 --> 00:51:02.570
important than wealth, like quality of life like security,
833
00:51:02.571 --> 00:51:04.370
social cohesion, and fulfillment,
834
00:51:04.940 --> 00:51:08.780
and the criterion for whether or not we develop a new technology.
835
00:51:08.960 --> 00:51:10.970
Shouldn't be whether somebody can make a motto,
836
00:51:11.420 --> 00:51:15.830
it should be how it contributes to those higher goals of a cohesive
837
00:51:15.831 --> 00:51:18.350
society in which we live a fulfilled life.
838
00:51:19.600 --> 00:51:21.850
Would anyone like to ask a question or make a comment to that?
839
00:51:25.570 --> 00:51:27.010
Yeah. You're having trouble hearing up there.
840
00:51:32.560 --> 00:51:36.070
Start again with anyone
841
00:51:38.230 --> 00:51:42.070
who would like to ask a question. There's a question at the top there. Yep.
842
00:51:42.460 --> 00:51:43.600
You could wait for the microphone.
843
00:51:44.740 --> 00:51:49.540
Is there someone bringing you a microphone upstairs up the front.
844
00:51:51.070 --> 00:51:54.580
You just gave a comment about unintended consequences of the technology,
845
00:51:54.581 --> 00:51:57.400
how it's more important to have a big,
846
00:51:57.430 --> 00:52:01.570
bigger picture of how technology is helping us rather than just narrowing down
847
00:52:01.571 --> 00:52:04.270
on how the targeted benefits are.
848
00:52:05.350 --> 00:52:09.910
My question is how much of that work is being done? Is there a specialty that,
849
00:52:10.450 --> 00:52:11.650
that goes into an intake,
850
00:52:11.920 --> 00:52:16.390
unintended consequences of the technology or the development that's going on?
851
00:52:18.250 --> 00:52:18.460
Jen,
852
00:52:18.460 --> 00:52:22.090
if other people couldn't hear it was how much work is being done on unintended
853
00:52:22.091 --> 00:52:23.980
consequences of new technologies.
854
00:52:24.370 --> 00:52:29.170
And there certainly is work done them in the academic work that Ron Johnson and
855
00:52:29.710 --> 00:52:33.550
people like myself have been doing for 30 or 40 years in the broad area of
856
00:52:33.551 --> 00:52:37.390
science technology and society is about recognizing that
857
00:52:38.080 --> 00:52:42.580
technologies have a wide range of social and economic and political impacts that
858
00:52:42.581 --> 00:52:45.940
should be studied. The general comment that can be made though,
859
00:52:45.941 --> 00:52:50.800
is that those who are promoting technology often
860
00:52:50.801 --> 00:52:54.820
have deeper pockets and a greater motivation than those who are attempting to
861
00:52:54.821 --> 00:52:57.460
make critical assessments of the negatives.
862
00:52:57.850 --> 00:53:02.350
And it's probably still true that those who are promoting new technologies
863
00:53:02.860 --> 00:53:06.490
have both more motivation and more resources than those who are trying to do
864
00:53:06.491 --> 00:53:07.450
critical assessments.
865
00:53:07.451 --> 00:53:12.010
So we will probably still find consequences that should have been
866
00:53:12.011 --> 00:53:16.750
foreseen if there was proper study that happened just because the
867
00:53:16.751 --> 00:53:18.670
study wasn't adequately resourced.
868
00:53:19.360 --> 00:53:20.680
Max, do you have a comment about the technology?
869
00:53:23.170 --> 00:53:27.750
That kind of work in assessing the side effects or the
870
00:53:28.380 --> 00:53:31.050
intended consequences of technology is very important.
871
00:53:31.051 --> 00:53:35.130
This is exactly where common policy and regulations come in.
872
00:53:35.490 --> 00:53:38.490
I think that we'll have more comments on that.
873
00:53:41.030 --> 00:53:44.870
Oh, regulatory frameworks are generally designed to assess human environmental
874
00:53:44.871 --> 00:53:49.190
health and safety at the time a product or an application is being assessed.
875
00:53:49.700 --> 00:53:51.470
I work in the nanotechnology area.
876
00:53:51.500 --> 00:53:56.060
And what I'm saying at the moment is researchers and industry who are working
877
00:53:56.090 --> 00:53:57.230
within that space.
878
00:53:57.530 --> 00:54:01.800
I actually concerned about not just the immediate impacts of that technology.
879
00:54:02.180 --> 00:54:04.460
There's so much scientific uncertainty within the area.
880
00:54:04.910 --> 00:54:08.450
They realized that there is a need to actually look beyond just what the regular
881
00:54:08.900 --> 00:54:10.160
theaters require. So there,
882
00:54:10.161 --> 00:54:14.270
the project that's about feed launched in the U S it's actually bringing NGO
883
00:54:14.300 --> 00:54:16.910
industry government together.
884
00:54:16.911 --> 00:54:20.600
And the idea is it's going to be looking at what happens when you release
885
00:54:21.500 --> 00:54:25.790
nanomaterials out of material. So if we talk about a nano membrane,
886
00:54:25.791 --> 00:54:27.680
which is one of the examples on that film,
887
00:54:28.010 --> 00:54:32.060
the idea is these projects will actually look at what happens when that membrane
888
00:54:32.090 --> 00:54:32.721
breaks down,
889
00:54:32.721 --> 00:54:37.130
or that film breaks down what happens to that nano material and really map the
890
00:54:37.430 --> 00:54:41.240
life cycle of that nanoparticle. Because at the end of the day,
891
00:54:41.270 --> 00:54:46.130
a company doesn't want to be liable for a huge environmental damage which
892
00:54:46.131 --> 00:54:47.930
they then had to clean up and pay for.
893
00:54:48.200 --> 00:54:52.730
So I think we're saying that there is I guess this perspective of,
894
00:54:52.760 --> 00:54:55.910
we need to look longer term not just short term to get through the regulatory
895
00:54:55.911 --> 00:54:57.800
framework. Yeah, sure.
896
00:54:58.160 --> 00:54:59.240
If I could add something,
897
00:54:59.241 --> 00:55:01.670
I think it's important to give credit where credit is due.
898
00:55:02.120 --> 00:55:04.760
I spend a lot of my time bucketing governments for not doing enough.
899
00:55:04.761 --> 00:55:08.000
So when they do do something right, I think it's proper to give credit.
900
00:55:08.001 --> 00:55:12.260
I think it should be credited that the government has established the national
901
00:55:12.261 --> 00:55:16.670
technology stakeholder advisory committee that doesn't just include technocrats,
902
00:55:16.671 --> 00:55:19.190
but also includes people from the environmental movement,
903
00:55:19.191 --> 00:55:23.930
the consumer movement from socially disadvantaged groups so that there
904
00:55:23.931 --> 00:55:28.220
is a, at least a framework for considering these broader social impacts of new
905
00:55:28.221 --> 00:55:29.054
technology.
906
00:55:30.770 --> 00:55:33.350
Ron, would you like to comment further on government policy in this area.
907
00:55:35.660 --> 00:55:37.970
Just following on Ian's comments, ,
908
00:55:37.971 --> 00:55:42.530
I'm privileged to be the chair of the expert forum with the national enabling
909
00:55:42.531 --> 00:55:46.400
technology strategy. And this marks almost the first time.
910
00:55:46.480 --> 00:55:47.990
And I think it's important that we recognize it.
911
00:55:48.410 --> 00:55:53.330
Perhaps a previous precedent was the concern about genetic manipulation,
912
00:55:53.960 --> 00:55:55.250
where governments,
913
00:55:55.251 --> 00:55:58.580
instead of waiting to see what happens in the marketplace and what scientists
914
00:55:58.581 --> 00:56:02.750
bringing up building a capability so that we start to analyze and examine
915
00:56:02.751 --> 00:56:05.330
potential effects in advance.
916
00:56:05.570 --> 00:56:10.370
So there is a modest capacity looking at where these
917
00:56:10.371 --> 00:56:14.690
new technologies might generate unintended consequences and how they can be
918
00:56:14.691 --> 00:56:15.524
designed.
919
00:56:15.590 --> 00:56:19.580
Precisely one major part of our program is to look at where the ways these
920
00:56:19.581 --> 00:56:21.740
technologies can assist people who are going,
921
00:56:21.830 --> 00:56:24.370
and we see are going to live longer, to live much better,
922
00:56:24.460 --> 00:56:29.110
living longer with a very sort of it and health-related support. So,
923
00:56:29.290 --> 00:56:33.430
so we, you have an expert forum that trying to be an interface.
924
00:56:33.700 --> 00:56:35.770
We need a great community engagement,
925
00:56:35.771 --> 00:56:38.290
and that's where opportunities like this are very,
926
00:56:38.291 --> 00:56:42.760
very important to continue to search and test these issues.
927
00:56:43.030 --> 00:56:45.700
Thank you. But anyone else like to comment?
928
00:56:45.701 --> 00:56:46.990
We've got a question up the top there.
929
00:56:48.900 --> 00:56:49.733
Hello.
930
00:56:50.760 --> 00:56:55.680
I have a question about the social aspect of the
931
00:56:55.681 --> 00:57:00.210
introduction of this kind of technology. I sort of find that a lot of,
932
00:57:00.240 --> 00:57:02.250
a lot of technologies when they're brought in,
933
00:57:02.490 --> 00:57:07.110
they're starting to distance us from our natural being,
934
00:57:07.111 --> 00:57:12.090
I suppose. And I suppose with this in particular,
935
00:57:12.150 --> 00:57:16.290
is that not taking away basically the last little
936
00:57:17.100 --> 00:57:21.240
connection that we actually have with the, with the earth? What,
937
00:57:21.241 --> 00:57:22.350
what do you guys think about this?
938
00:57:23.750 --> 00:57:27.780
I think that was the main point I tried to make apparently inaudibly on the top
939
00:57:28.890 --> 00:57:33.180
level that it doesn't seem to me to make sense to move people away from the food
940
00:57:33.181 --> 00:57:36.570
producing land and then develop a high-tech way to give them food.
941
00:57:37.410 --> 00:57:42.000
I think that we should be using modern communications technology to try and
942
00:57:42.001 --> 00:57:46.770
encourage people to live in the rural areas where food production is
943
00:57:46.771 --> 00:57:51.630
natural and where they're in touch with the earth
944
00:57:51.660 --> 00:57:53.460
and with natural systems.
945
00:57:54.141 --> 00:57:57.810
And I think they probably live more productive and more fulfilled lives.
946
00:57:58.340 --> 00:58:03.090
I think it's really sad that most people under the age of 30 think peas come in
947
00:58:03.120 --> 00:58:07.290
freezers at supermarkets and a milk comes in cartons rather than knowing where
948
00:58:07.291 --> 00:58:12.000
they come from. And I think that's not just a technical issue.
949
00:58:12.001 --> 00:58:15.570
I think we are actually more fulfilled as individuals,
950
00:58:15.571 --> 00:58:19.470
if we are more closely in touch with the natural systems of which we are part
951
00:58:19.860 --> 00:58:24.030
and probably the large scale environmental problems stem from us being
952
00:58:24.031 --> 00:58:28.380
disconnected from the natural systems and not perceiving the impact of the
953
00:58:28.381 --> 00:58:29.790
decisions we make every day.
954
00:58:31.740 --> 00:58:34.380
Sure. I think technologies
955
00:58:35.970 --> 00:58:40.350
advancements in technology have driven us to behave differently. You know,
956
00:58:40.360 --> 00:58:43.350
the social networks, you know, all these new technologies,
957
00:58:43.380 --> 00:58:48.360
thanks to Steve jobs have changed the gene Y social
958
00:58:48.361 --> 00:58:52.140
behavior. So in a similar fashion, you know,
959
00:58:52.141 --> 00:58:56.370
we being at using cars, individual drug,
960
00:58:56.460 --> 00:58:59.150
you know cars for a long,
961
00:58:59.151 --> 00:59:03.900
long time that's compared to our parents' generation or parents' parents'
962
00:59:03.901 --> 00:59:06.630
generation. I mean, that's a big social change.
963
00:59:07.440 --> 00:59:10.110
Now we in the context of this
964
00:59:12.120 --> 00:59:15.090
carbon emissions and zero emission cities,
965
00:59:15.091 --> 00:59:18.150
I think we need to think about the public transport.
966
00:59:18.630 --> 00:59:23.000
So there is I mean, I agree with we, we, as we, and, you know,
967
00:59:23.030 --> 00:59:26.000
the what your family is not a major part of that. I mean,
968
00:59:26.270 --> 00:59:27.650
although it may be a good idea,
969
00:59:27.980 --> 00:59:32.420
but the key part for a zero emission cities a is the
970
00:59:32.421 --> 00:59:35.810
integration of energy supply water,
971
00:59:36.320 --> 00:59:41.120
as well as you know communicate or not communicate
972
00:59:41.121 --> 00:59:41.954
commuting.
973
00:59:42.020 --> 00:59:46.760
So they should be integrated holistically using as much as
974
00:59:46.761 --> 00:59:47.720
renewable energy.
975
00:59:48.560 --> 00:59:52.130
You can imagine cars won't be on the city streets,
976
00:59:52.490 --> 00:59:55.970
but you have district travelers set electrical vehicles,
977
00:59:55.971 --> 00:59:59.870
and people would just pop in pop out or free because powered by,
978
01:00:00.140 --> 01:00:04.660
by the solar and the, the thin film technology is going to be enabled,
979
01:00:04.661 --> 01:00:08.180
but nano technology will not only bring down the cost,
980
01:00:08.480 --> 01:00:10.220
but it's going to make it flexible.
981
01:00:10.221 --> 01:00:14.930
You can install it as a facade on the roof of any building in any given
982
01:00:14.931 --> 01:00:17.120
city. Then you can, in fact,
983
01:00:17.121 --> 01:00:21.920
this is not science fiction is a city being built in Abu Dhabi about $22 million
984
01:00:21.921 --> 01:00:26.000
city, 50,000 people. They're going to use executive that sort of technology,
985
01:00:26.180 --> 01:00:31.160
where the water is actually recycled rainwater enable
986
01:00:31.460 --> 01:00:35.360
this enabled by the sort of nano membranes that we talked about.
987
01:00:35.690 --> 01:00:40.370
So should it be a holistically integrated system that will have minimal
988
01:00:41.330 --> 01:00:46.010
emissions or zero emissions? Well maybe, you know,
989
01:00:46.370 --> 01:00:47.240
linking to the next topic,
990
01:00:47.280 --> 01:00:52.070
you can actually see the side of some of the meat on top of the roof because
991
01:00:52.100 --> 01:00:54.290
that's where a lot of the emissions come from,
992
01:00:54.291 --> 01:00:58.460
because there are a lot of more CO2 generated from that lifestyle, but then,
993
01:00:58.700 --> 01:01:01.130
then the implants. So, but anyway, I mean,
994
01:01:01.131 --> 01:01:05.210
all these things should be part of the solution towards the zero issue.
995
01:01:06.190 --> 01:01:11.050
There was a mentioned in the video about having to modify the plants.
996
01:01:11.051 --> 01:01:13.330
If we took to explore this technology,
997
01:01:13.660 --> 01:01:18.220
we'd need to engage in methods like genetic engineering and that's associated
998
01:01:18.221 --> 01:01:21.370
with a lot of controversy, how do you, how do you view that?
999
01:01:22.750 --> 01:01:27.520
We here in Australia have a gene technology regulator who has been in place as
1000
01:01:27.580 --> 01:01:29.620
one of our regulators for a number of years now.
1001
01:01:30.280 --> 01:01:33.850
I'm sorry that we already have a regulatory framework already,
1002
01:01:34.090 --> 01:01:36.310
that deals with GMOs. So in a respect,
1003
01:01:36.340 --> 01:01:39.460
that's not a new issue that we would have to grapple with.
1004
01:01:39.490 --> 01:01:42.460
I think my winter colleagues here in braids with a number of other issues that
1005
01:01:42.520 --> 01:01:47.320
are probably more pressing than actually the dealing with GMOs. Yep. All right.
1006
01:01:47.680 --> 01:01:49.690
Is there anyone else that would like to make a comment question?
1007
01:01:49.930 --> 01:01:51.640
I've a question. Sure.
1008
01:01:52.450 --> 01:01:52.570
Yeah.
1009
01:01:52.570 --> 01:01:57.550
I'd like to ask whether the advent of vertical farming
1010
01:01:57.700 --> 01:02:02.230
and also food genetic technology has to do more with the heightening
1011
01:02:02.231 --> 01:02:05.020
cost of food rather than the scarcity of food.
1012
01:02:06.910 --> 01:02:11.440
And the answer is yes. I mean, there is no food scarcity in absolute terms.
1013
01:02:11.441 --> 01:02:16.180
The world now produces enough food for everyone to have two kilograms of food
1014
01:02:16.181 --> 01:02:19.030
per person per day, if it was uniformly distributed, I mean,
1015
01:02:19.140 --> 01:02:23.160
you do the sums and divided the total food production by people.
1016
01:02:23.400 --> 01:02:25.800
We each have on average,
1017
01:02:26.010 --> 01:02:28.470
a kilogram of fruit and vegetables per day,
1018
01:02:28.680 --> 01:02:32.430
half a kilogram of cereals and pulses and half a kilogram of protein.
1019
01:02:33.480 --> 01:02:36.660
And that's more than enough for even the most dedicated trencher person.
1020
01:02:37.050 --> 01:02:41.790
So a more rational preservation and
1021
01:02:41.791 --> 01:02:46.140
distribution system is I would've thought a higher priority than increasing
1022
01:02:46.141 --> 01:02:47.700
production. I mean, it's the old adage.
1023
01:02:48.000 --> 01:02:50.430
If you can't fill the sink because the water keeps running out,
1024
01:02:50.431 --> 01:02:52.260
you don't need a bigger tap. You need a plug.
1025
01:02:52.740 --> 01:02:56.940
And I think the more urgent task is the social and economic.
1026
01:02:56.941 --> 01:03:01.800
One of finding ways of better distributing the food we produce rather than
1027
01:03:01.801 --> 01:03:03.060
increasing food production.
1028
01:03:03.500 --> 01:03:08.180
Sounds like the president of the conservation says high conservation is
1029
01:03:08.670 --> 01:03:10.430
important. Everything I agree. Totally. Yeah.
1030
01:03:10.640 --> 01:03:14.540
But you're also a believer that technology needs to meet other demands like
1031
01:03:14.570 --> 01:03:15.410
increased population.
1032
01:03:16.610 --> 01:03:19.970
By 2050, we will have 9 billion people living on earth.
1033
01:03:20.240 --> 01:03:24.710
I think the the food demand is probably projected to be 70% more
1034
01:03:25.310 --> 01:03:28.610
then then when we have the use of water, problem is going to be doubled.
1035
01:03:28.790 --> 01:03:31.940
So these are the real challenge is you know,
1036
01:03:31.970 --> 01:03:35.210
despite the fact that we counted health food is distributed evenly.
1037
01:03:36.170 --> 01:03:40.190
But I think in the advanced economies, we waste too much. I think that that's a,
1038
01:03:40.430 --> 01:03:44.630
that's a problem and then caused even a bigger problem in obesity and other
1039
01:03:44.631 --> 01:03:49.190
lifestyle diseases that I think nanotechnology also have an answer to that.
1040
01:03:49.650 --> 01:03:50.450
So I'll talk about.
1041
01:03:50.450 --> 01:03:52.940
It later for another session. Okay.
1042
01:03:53.630 --> 01:03:58.430
Isn't it also true that the presumption that 30% more people need 70%
1043
01:03:58.431 --> 01:04:02.840
more food assumes that there's a continuing trend of increasing wasteful
1044
01:04:02.841 --> 01:04:05.600
conversion of vegetable protein into animal protein.
1045
01:04:06.040 --> 01:04:10.370
And I remember doing a back of the envelope calculation in answer to a question
1046
01:04:10.490 --> 01:04:11.540
and a session like this.
1047
01:04:11.900 --> 01:04:16.370
And I concluded that if the entire world were vegetarian we could
1048
01:04:16.371 --> 01:04:20.990
reforest twice as much land as you need to soak up all the fossil carbon dioxide
1049
01:04:20.991 --> 01:04:23.810
that we put into the air, or to put it more realistically,
1050
01:04:24.020 --> 01:04:27.740
if we on average ate half as much meat as we do now,
1051
01:04:27.950 --> 01:04:32.180
you could reforest enough land to soak up all the extra fossil carbon dioxide
1052
01:04:32.181 --> 01:04:33.500
that humans put into the air.
1053
01:04:33.830 --> 01:04:38.510
So rather than accepting that there will be an increase in the wasteful
1054
01:04:38.511 --> 01:04:41.000
conversion of vegetable protein to animal protein.
1055
01:04:41.360 --> 01:04:45.080
I'd like to suggest that there'll be a decrease in the wasteful conversion in
1056
01:04:45.081 --> 01:04:46.310
the affluent societies,
1057
01:04:46.580 --> 01:04:49.790
where there's a certain amount of epidemiological evidence that our level of
1058
01:04:49.791 --> 01:04:52.880
meat production is actually doing us more harm than good. That is really.
1059
01:04:52.880 --> 01:04:55.640
Hard to change human behavior. And we know that from history.
1060
01:04:58.400 --> 01:05:01.100
He says that it's hard to change human behavior in the short term,
1061
01:05:01.640 --> 01:05:05.630
but it's relatively easy to do it in the term when I was an undergraduate,
1062
01:05:05.690 --> 01:05:09.830
60% of adult males smoked today, it's about 15%.
1063
01:05:10.790 --> 01:05:14.960
Total beef consumption in Australia is about the same as it was 50 years ago,
1064
01:05:14.990 --> 01:05:17.800
even though there's twice as many of us. So on average,
1065
01:05:17.801 --> 01:05:21.820
we are now eating half as much beef today as we were 50 years ago.
1066
01:05:22.030 --> 01:05:25.360
So quite significant structural changes happen over time.
1067
01:05:26.230 --> 01:05:28.720
It's very hard to change human behavior in the short term,
1068
01:05:28.960 --> 01:05:31.210
but in the longterm human behavior does change.
1069
01:05:31.240 --> 01:05:33.910
And we've got used to not living within walking distance,
1070
01:05:33.940 --> 01:05:37.900
public transport and using cars not necessarily a benefit,
1071
01:05:37.930 --> 01:05:41.290
but we've got used to it. Over 50 years, 50 years ago,
1072
01:05:41.350 --> 01:05:44.290
it would have been unthinkable to live where you couldn't walk to a bus stop or
1073
01:05:44.291 --> 01:05:46.840
a tram stop, or a railway station. Just a quick comment.
1074
01:05:48.140 --> 01:05:49.740
Coming down to the human behavior.
1075
01:05:49.770 --> 01:05:54.750
I believe that we can change behavior if the right market mechanisms in
1076
01:05:54.751 --> 01:05:58.400
place. Because for example, in Brisbane, at three years ago,
1077
01:05:58.410 --> 01:06:00.290
we had the severe drought in the,
1078
01:06:00.450 --> 01:06:05.220
in the sanctuary the water sort of a restriction
1079
01:06:05.730 --> 01:06:09.390
as well as combined with the rise of water costs,
1080
01:06:09.660 --> 01:06:11.100
change people's behavior.
1081
01:06:11.101 --> 01:06:15.120
Now we still have a by less than half of the conception.
1082
01:06:15.390 --> 01:06:18.540
Then now we have a lot of rain. [inaudible], You know
1083
01:06:18.540 --> 01:06:18.540
, everything else come back, we have changed the behavior. So I think energy is something that we can p
1084
01:06:18.540 --> 01:06:18.540
rice correctly to change human behavior. And so we use the obesity. I mean, if i
1085
01:06:18.540 --> 01:06:18.540
t all boils down to the benefit risk sort of ratio. So if people believe okay, y
1086
01:06:18.540 --> 01:06:18.540
ou, but then you eat more sugar and
1087
01:06:18.540 --> 01:06:18.540
more calories I'm going to pay for, you know, pay the price later. I will you know, voluntarily reduce the consumption. I think it
1088
01:06:18.540 --> 01:06:18.540
's,
1089
01:06:18.540 --> 01:06:19.373
it's a matter of education awareness, as well as you know, understanding of those issues.
1090
01:06:56.970 --> 01:07:00.810
We live in a gratifying society where they want instant gratification.
1091
01:07:01.270 --> 01:07:04.950
It's hard. Let's get the question of, well,
1092
01:07:04.951 --> 01:07:07.410
this is all very intelligent discussion.
1093
01:07:07.680 --> 01:07:11.040
The governments need to send a consistent message.
1094
01:07:12.450 --> 01:07:14.640
For example, it takes me,
1095
01:07:14.700 --> 01:07:19.500
it cost me double to take the bus to the city than to drive my little
1096
01:07:19.501 --> 01:07:20.334
car.
1097
01:07:20.340 --> 01:07:25.050
Our house is covered by solar panels that don't work because our
1098
01:07:25.051 --> 01:07:29.340
council doesn't allow us to prune the trees. So I'm lost in translation.
1099
01:07:30.290 --> 01:07:33.690
You are telling us to be conscious about,
1100
01:07:33.750 --> 01:07:35.400
and we try to make a difference,
1101
01:07:35.700 --> 01:07:40.080
but the government is it against us is I don't
1102
01:07:40.081 --> 01:07:41.490
understand in.
1103
01:07:41.490 --> 01:07:42.740
A city of ideas.
1104
01:07:42.741 --> 01:07:47.310
So I think I want to turn this into a CDO for good policies.
1105
01:07:47.340 --> 01:07:50.470
Maybe you can talk through your politicians here. Yeah. But.
1106
01:07:50.500 --> 01:07:53.820
I think you're, you're right. There does have to be a consistent message.
1107
01:07:53.850 --> 01:07:56.310
I mean, I've said to the Queensland government,
1108
01:07:56.340 --> 01:07:58.590
because I'm on their climate change advisory council,
1109
01:07:58.591 --> 01:08:02.610
that it's very hard for the community to think they're serious about reducing
1110
01:08:02.611 --> 01:08:06.030
our greenhouse gas emissions and that we should put solar panels on our roof and
1111
01:08:06.031 --> 01:08:10.590
use public transport when they're spending squillions of public money to expand
1112
01:08:10.591 --> 01:08:14.520
the production of coal and to be bird overseas you know,
1113
01:08:14.770 --> 01:08:16.340
has be a consistent message.
1114
01:08:16.640 --> 01:08:20.840
Otherwise it's very hard for people to think, well,
1115
01:08:20.841 --> 01:08:25.610
I can make a difference when other people are what's the it's like
1116
01:08:27.890 --> 01:08:29.090
volunteers,
1117
01:08:29.420 --> 01:08:33.950
planting trees with spades when on the other side of the hill
1118
01:08:35.330 --> 01:08:40.310
bulldozers are removing them by the hectare that it's hard to feel you're making
1119
01:08:40.311 --> 01:08:44.840
a difference is if other people are working twice as hard to move things in the
1120
01:08:44.841 --> 01:08:45.680
opposite direction.
1121
01:08:46.930 --> 01:08:50.500
But you really can't because the government offers some kind of refund to have
1122
01:08:50.501 --> 01:08:54.910
solar panels in which in most cases they can't function
1123
01:08:55.180 --> 01:09:00.040
because they are in the shade on constantly because the
1124
01:09:00.041 --> 01:09:04.480
councils don't allow to get rid of some branches, for example. So
1125
01:09:06.430 --> 01:09:10.570
how is that neighborhood going to work? Yeah.
1126
01:09:11.200 --> 01:09:14.280
Yep. Oh, I'll take that as a comment. One more quick question.
1127
01:09:14.680 --> 01:09:17.770
If it were truly a comment, which I agree is, and admit is general,
1128
01:09:17.950 --> 01:09:22.060
and that is that we as a human race seem to be fairly optimistic and not
1129
01:09:22.061 --> 01:09:26.530
suspicious or questioning of genetic modification of the human body for medical
1130
01:09:26.531 --> 01:09:26.921
reasons.
1131
01:09:26.921 --> 01:09:31.660
And we're very suspicious and power white paranoid about modifying the cow or
1132
01:09:31.661 --> 01:09:33.100
wheat or soybeans.
1133
01:09:35.800 --> 01:09:37.810
Does anyone want to make a comment to that? Or should we. We'll
1134
01:09:44.621 --> 01:09:46.030
need a microphone for Sue to comment.
1135
01:09:48.190 --> 01:09:50.770
And then we'll have to move on. Look,
1136
01:09:50.771 --> 01:09:55.120
I think that in both cases we've got reasons to be concerned.
1137
01:09:55.870 --> 01:09:58.720
It is usually the case that when we're talking about modification for the
1138
01:09:58.721 --> 01:10:02.290
purpose of health, that we're sticking to the same species.
1139
01:10:02.980 --> 01:10:07.540
But it is the case when it comes to genetic modification with regards to things
1140
01:10:07.541 --> 01:10:08.374
that we're eating,
1141
01:10:08.440 --> 01:10:11.920
people have concerns that because the motivation is primarily about profits
1142
01:10:11.921 --> 01:10:16.870
perhaps, or about being able to use use crops that don't require
1143
01:10:16.900 --> 01:10:21.010
pesticides, that they want to ask those questions about unintended consequences,
1144
01:10:21.011 --> 01:10:25.600
about the possibility of other aspects of the
1145
01:10:25.660 --> 01:10:29.800
original organism coming across with the genetic genetically modified aspects.
1146
01:10:29.801 --> 01:10:34.120
So that question about the way in which we might get diseases from species that
1147
01:10:34.121 --> 01:10:35.890
we're not familiar with in our immune systems,
1148
01:10:35.891 --> 01:10:38.620
don't know how to cope with and were quite appropriate concerns.
1149
01:10:38.950 --> 01:10:42.430
There's also a very large concern that many people have,
1150
01:10:42.431 --> 01:10:44.050
which is very hard to articulate,
1151
01:10:44.051 --> 01:10:48.940
which is an ethic that people have concerns about the ways in which you know,
1152
01:10:48.970 --> 01:10:49.301
if we,
1153
01:10:49.301 --> 01:10:54.280
if we start fiddling with the genes within a particular species
1154
01:10:54.520 --> 01:10:58.120
that we actually are doing something that's unnatural or we're doing something
1155
01:10:58.121 --> 01:11:00.730
that's, that's you know, contrary to nature.
1156
01:11:00.970 --> 01:11:04.150
And I don't think that we actually have a way of articulating exactly what that
1157
01:11:04.151 --> 01:11:07.120
amounts to. And I think that the concerns about the potential health,
1158
01:11:07.121 --> 01:11:10.690
environmental, and safety issues associated with a genetic modification are,
1159
01:11:10.780 --> 01:11:14.790
are much more ones that we can actually consider and deliberate on.
1160
01:11:14.791 --> 01:11:18.810
And I guess that's why with regard to the the genetic modification for health,
1161
01:11:19.110 --> 01:11:21.150
because that's so regulated and controlled,
1162
01:11:21.420 --> 01:11:25.020
we'd have a little bit less concern about, okay, we'll have to leave it there.
1163
01:11:25.021 --> 01:11:28.530
That's all we've got time for. So thank the panel for their wise words.
1164
01:11:33.570 --> 01:11:37.740
We'll move on to our next scenario. Now, this is the last one.
1165
01:11:38.190 --> 01:11:40.410
This is about synthetic meats. So once again,
1166
01:11:40.411 --> 01:11:43.290
we'll watch a video and then we'll hear from our panel.
1167
01:11:45.170 --> 01:11:45.680
Meat.
1168
01:11:45.680 --> 01:11:50.120
Is an excellent source of protein and quite tasty, but at what cost,
1169
01:11:50.420 --> 01:11:54.500
the resources required to feed 9 billion people meet Avast,
1170
01:11:54.980 --> 01:11:56.600
even if it's just the wealthy ones.
1171
01:11:57.710 --> 01:12:01.730
Many people are rejecting the cruelty of factory farming and practices like live
1172
01:12:01.731 --> 01:12:04.910
animal export. And though they haven't been surveyed,
1173
01:12:05.120 --> 01:12:09.290
it's likely the billions of primary providers, cows, sheep,
1174
01:12:09.440 --> 01:12:11.060
pigs fish, and the rest,
1175
01:12:11.480 --> 01:12:15.230
a debt against it could synthetic meat to be the solution.
1176
01:12:16.070 --> 01:12:20.720
It is meat, not tofu based meat substitutes. And despite the name,
1177
01:12:20.721 --> 01:12:24.320
not really synthetic it's actual animal cells,
1178
01:12:26.050 --> 01:12:29.140
tissue engineers take a sample from a live adult animal.
1179
01:12:29.560 --> 01:12:31.480
And ideally that's all they have to endure.
1180
01:12:32.260 --> 01:12:35.830
Then they grow the adult stem cells in bats of nutrient rich broth,
1181
01:12:36.220 --> 01:12:40.960
convert them to muscle cells because meat is muscle and grow them on a
1182
01:12:40.961 --> 01:12:42.310
biodegradable scaffold.
1183
01:12:43.330 --> 01:12:46.840
The only hitch is muscle cells need exercise to survive,
1184
01:12:47.380 --> 01:12:49.540
and you can't run these ones around the paddock.
1185
01:12:50.620 --> 01:12:55.510
You can simulate them with tiny electrical impulses, but on an industrial scale,
1186
01:12:55.840 --> 01:12:59.920
it's prohibitively expensive research continues
1187
01:13:01.060 --> 01:13:01.893
thus far.
1188
01:13:02.110 --> 01:13:07.060
The biggest cat contains millions of cells and is roughly the size of a
1189
01:13:07.061 --> 01:13:07.894
contact lens.
1190
01:13:08.920 --> 01:13:13.240
But when synthetic meat becomes a mainstream reality where you eat lab grown
1191
01:13:13.241 --> 01:13:17.950
steak and will knowing that no animals were harmed in the making of your burger
1192
01:13:18.760 --> 01:13:20.560
change, the way you relate to animals.
1193
01:13:22.190 --> 01:13:24.710
So how does everyone feel about synthetic meat. We've got a couple of questions.
1194
01:13:24.711 --> 01:13:26.510
So if you could get your clicker pads ready,
1195
01:13:27.770 --> 01:13:31.700
do you think that synthetic meat technology would not likely change the way you
1196
01:13:31.701 --> 01:13:33.050
live by 2020?
1197
01:13:34.130 --> 01:13:36.920
Or do you think it would likely change the way you live by
1198
01:13:36.921 --> 01:13:41.540
2020, 10 seconds to vote
1199
01:13:43.070 --> 01:13:47.030
option one or two? Okay. Let's see what we say.
1200
01:13:48.320 --> 01:13:48.741
Okay.
1201
01:13:48.741 --> 01:13:52.550
So most of you think it would not likely change the way you live this because
1202
01:13:52.551 --> 01:13:54.650
technology won't have progressed that fast,
1203
01:13:55.160 --> 01:13:57.740
or nobody would want to eat synthetic meat.
1204
01:13:59.750 --> 01:14:03.230
Nobody would want to do all your old vegetarians because this not more
1205
01:14:03.231 --> 01:14:04.730
acceptable to vegetarians.
1206
01:14:06.950 --> 01:14:11.740
There is another question. What do you actually eat? Meat?
1207
01:14:12.250 --> 01:14:14.950
Here's your options? No way. Never,
1208
01:14:15.310 --> 01:14:18.580
maybe depends on how expensive or cheap it is.
1209
01:14:19.930 --> 01:14:23.830
Give a consideration to the ethical or environmental grounds.
1210
01:14:25.690 --> 01:14:29.200
Pass me a knife and fork. I want to eat it now. Well, you're not sure
1211
01:14:31.270 --> 01:14:34.420
let's take a vote. So be interesting.
1212
01:14:37.270 --> 01:14:39.760
Oh, okay. Mixed.
1213
01:14:40.900 --> 01:14:43.960
Most of you would probably not or
1214
01:14:45.250 --> 01:14:50.200
dependent. Yeah. It's all over the place. All right.
1215
01:14:50.230 --> 01:14:53.200
Well, let's get our expert panel up and discuss it a bit more.
1216
01:14:53.201 --> 01:14:54.490
Maybe you'll change your mind.
1217
01:14:55.660 --> 01:14:57.970
First we have associate professor Wayne Pitchford,
1218
01:14:58.600 --> 01:15:01.870
he's a beef researcher at the university of Adelaide.
1219
01:15:02.620 --> 01:15:06.550
We can welcome back professor Max Lu who will give us insight.
1220
01:15:06.551 --> 01:15:09.370
And then I technology and biotechnology and professor Sue Dods.
1221
01:15:13.870 --> 01:15:15.640
Wayne, what did you think about that video?
1222
01:15:17.870 --> 01:15:18.950
Well, I'll wait with livestock,
1223
01:15:18.951 --> 01:15:21.920
so I'm quite keen on meat consumption I'm certainly not a vegetarian.
1224
01:15:23.510 --> 01:15:24.950
There's a couple of things that strike me.
1225
01:15:26.000 --> 01:15:30.080
The first thing is around food security and the idea of having to feed 9 billion
1226
01:15:30.081 --> 01:15:31.700
people is a big challenge.
1227
01:15:32.420 --> 01:15:37.340
And anything that we can do to improve protein production for
1228
01:15:37.341 --> 01:15:42.020
that number of people is going to be a useful technology that said that
1229
01:15:42.080 --> 01:15:45.860
food security is much more than just
1230
01:15:46.790 --> 01:15:49.640
supplying high quality animal protein to people.
1231
01:15:50.720 --> 01:15:52.490
It's all about an eating experience.
1232
01:15:53.930 --> 01:15:55.190
Smell a steak on the barbecue.
1233
01:15:55.820 --> 01:15:58.580
Smell a steak on a barbeque that's, right. I mean,
1234
01:15:58.610 --> 01:16:02.990
chicken is the cheapest major produce that we have in terms of conversion
1235
01:16:03.410 --> 01:16:05.810
of grind to to animal protein.
1236
01:16:06.470 --> 01:16:09.620
And yet pork is the most widely eaten meat worldwide.
1237
01:16:11.090 --> 01:16:15.800
And in Australia chicken is the most widely meat eaten meat
1238
01:16:16.430 --> 01:16:20.570
beef, much less. So, so food security is much more than
1239
01:16:21.920 --> 01:16:23.660
than, than just supplying protein.
1240
01:16:24.440 --> 01:16:27.950
The other point I'd make is that in terms of food choice we can,
1241
01:16:28.010 --> 01:16:31.790
we have a couple of case studies that help us actually see the value that people
1242
01:16:31.791 --> 01:16:33.890
put on the eating experience.
1243
01:16:33.950 --> 01:16:38.510
And that is the case study at at hungry Jackson McDonald's at the moment
1244
01:16:38.630 --> 01:16:43.010
where people pay a premium for an Angus burger, which, you know,
1245
01:16:43.430 --> 01:16:47.810
minces meats and the burgers are no better
1246
01:16:49.340 --> 01:16:53.870
at hungry Jack's, but no, no, no.
1247
01:16:54.030 --> 01:16:58.640
Th th th th at McDonald's the grand nuggets bigger is no, no better than a,
1248
01:16:58.910 --> 01:17:01.790
than a big Mac burger in terms of the meat that's gone into that.
1249
01:17:02.300 --> 01:17:04.760
And yet people pay a premium for the eating experience.
1250
01:17:05.120 --> 01:17:09.690
So even if we can have a synthetic meat burger at
1251
01:17:10.310 --> 01:17:14.990
MCAS you know, people may still pay a premium for specific eating experiences,
1252
01:17:15.230 --> 01:17:18.680
not to say, you know, the minor changes and then a muscle with an effect.
1253
01:17:19.430 --> 01:17:22.310
The way that we cook meat on the experience that we have in specific aging
1254
01:17:22.311 --> 01:17:23.144
products.
1255
01:17:23.300 --> 01:17:25.310
Okay. Does anyone have a question for the panel.
1256
01:17:27.430 --> 01:17:30.880
Marketing purely and simply, and, and so,
1257
01:17:31.120 --> 01:17:35.530
and so much of what and so much of how we act socially relies on
1258
01:17:35.531 --> 01:17:37.510
marketing. So when we talk about,
1259
01:17:37.540 --> 01:17:42.340
and we've had a number of discussions so far about how we talk about changing
1260
01:17:42.341 --> 01:17:43.174
behavior,
1261
01:17:43.240 --> 01:17:48.070
but when you've got a multi billion dollar industry telling us how we should
1262
01:17:48.071 --> 01:17:51.820
think and what we should do and how we should eat,
1263
01:17:52.390 --> 01:17:56.860
you've got no hope challenging that in a direct and larger way.
1264
01:17:57.550 --> 01:18:01.750
And so I think unless we start to have
1265
01:18:02.110 --> 01:18:04.780
marketing top of mind in the things that we do,
1266
01:18:05.740 --> 01:18:07.270
then we're not going to succeed.
1267
01:18:07.780 --> 01:18:12.260
And I think the issue of say the successful reduction of
1268
01:18:12.370 --> 01:18:17.110
cigarette smoking is a direct challenge to marketing the idea about which
1269
01:18:17.140 --> 01:18:21.400
hamburger we're going to eat is a direct is a direct
1270
01:18:21.910 --> 01:18:23.320
success of marketing.
1271
01:18:23.920 --> 01:18:26.890
And we never talk about it in these forums and social behavior.
1272
01:18:27.400 --> 01:18:31.900
Why do companies spend a shitload of money on
1273
01:18:31.901 --> 01:18:36.550
marketing and a very and there's no challenge to it?
1274
01:18:37.750 --> 01:18:38.710
Who would like to comment on that.
1275
01:18:41.410 --> 01:18:46.090
I think that you ride that one of the biggest challenges
1276
01:18:46.150 --> 01:18:50.770
is that where there's a financial motivation then that has a very big
1277
01:18:50.771 --> 01:18:55.630
capacity to shift the way we think we can have a society in which we're more
1278
01:18:55.631 --> 01:18:59.740
critical about the marketing we have and about the advertising receive.
1279
01:18:59.741 --> 01:19:03.490
And if you see some of that the idea of viral marketing and the ways in which
1280
01:19:03.491 --> 01:19:06.010
social media are picked up is partly a response to it,
1281
01:19:06.011 --> 01:19:08.950
but also then gets sucked up again into that same process.
1282
01:19:09.491 --> 01:19:13.540
I think that a more critical public is one which actually asks the question,
1283
01:19:13.780 --> 01:19:15.610
you know, and I think many people in this room,
1284
01:19:15.611 --> 01:19:17.830
at least walking past a fast food place,
1285
01:19:17.860 --> 01:19:22.570
know that when they say healthier lean food this is a great way of
1286
01:19:22.870 --> 01:19:23.860
having, you know,
1287
01:19:23.890 --> 01:19:27.700
better food that they can actually see that for what it is that they're not
1288
01:19:27.701 --> 01:19:28.840
sucked in all the time.
1289
01:19:29.381 --> 01:19:34.060
And I think we just need to not allow ourselves to say that marketing
1290
01:19:34.090 --> 01:19:35.740
actually controls our brains.
1291
01:19:36.210 --> 01:19:40.270
I think that we actually know that a lot of that those financial resources can
1292
01:19:40.271 --> 01:19:43.510
also be used in ways that we can undermine and criticize.
1293
01:19:43.511 --> 01:19:46.060
And one of our challenges of course, is where's the,
1294
01:19:46.090 --> 01:19:49.300
where's the space for public debate beyond the individual. And, you know,
1295
01:19:49.320 --> 01:19:53.050
one role is for government with regard to the questions about regulation,
1296
01:19:53.051 --> 01:19:56.440
questions about presenting alternative views.
1297
01:19:56.560 --> 01:19:59.530
Some of it's about ways in which we can have public media sources.
1298
01:20:00.070 --> 01:20:01.840
And you might well think that there's, you know,
1299
01:20:02.020 --> 01:20:05.080
a whole range of issues about the way in which we present.
1300
01:20:05.770 --> 01:20:10.710
We present messages which are buying into our concerns about
1301
01:20:10.711 --> 01:20:15.480
health or concerns about the environment, but don't necessarily follow through.
1302
01:20:15.850 --> 01:20:19.440
And I, but we can create a society in which we're more critical of those things,
1303
01:20:19.441 --> 01:20:21.990
and that then forces the marketer to, to come into a different ploy.
1304
01:20:23.630 --> 01:20:24.850
Can I make a comment on that as well?
1305
01:20:25.240 --> 01:20:28.880
You portrayed marketing as being a big bag monster,
1306
01:20:28.910 --> 01:20:32.540
but a significant part of marketing and food product is actually a positive
1307
01:20:32.541 --> 01:20:33.590
thing. For example,
1308
01:20:33.860 --> 01:20:37.730
part of marketing is providing information on where the food comes from.
1309
01:20:37.731 --> 01:20:38.630
For example, we thought,
1310
01:20:38.740 --> 01:20:41.750
I'd tell you that all of the broccolini grind in south Australia,
1311
01:20:41.810 --> 01:20:43.070
it doesn't just come from Woolworths,
1312
01:20:43.071 --> 01:20:46.220
but it comes from my family farm on the fleurette peninsula.
1313
01:20:46.490 --> 01:20:47.323
That's a good thing.
1314
01:20:48.710 --> 01:20:51.260
If you're going to a restaurant and you look through a range of different
1315
01:20:51.261 --> 01:20:54.320
options and you can see some of them, you know, you know,
1316
01:20:54.350 --> 01:20:56.840
where the animals being raised, how it's been treated,
1317
01:20:56.841 --> 01:21:00.320
what age it is that actually people are prepared to pay a premium for that
1318
01:21:00.440 --> 01:21:03.230
that's marketing, but it's actually providing information that people want.
1319
01:21:03.980 --> 01:21:08.910
I'm providing people with a choice. I've got a question at the front here. Yep.
1320
01:21:11.530 --> 01:21:15.080
It's a general trend that when there is more money in the society,
1321
01:21:15.170 --> 01:21:18.900
they tend to become more Nan with non-vegetarian and
1322
01:21:19.910 --> 01:21:23.210
coupled with that, how do you think that will happen?
1323
01:21:23.240 --> 01:21:27.410
What will happen to vegetarianism? Once the synthetic meat becomes a reality,
1324
01:21:28.280 --> 01:21:31.640
there are a lot of factors that goes into a person becoming a vegetarian,
1325
01:21:31.970 --> 01:21:36.680
maybe ethical economic health factor, but once synthetic meat comes into it,
1326
01:21:37.100 --> 01:21:41.780
you free up the guilt that an animal is being slaughtered for your food.
1327
01:21:42.230 --> 01:21:44.480
How do you think that'll change vegetarianism?
1328
01:21:45.200 --> 01:21:46.160
Sue how do you...
1329
01:21:48.651 --> 01:21:51.470
I think there's a number of factors here. I think you're right.
1330
01:21:51.560 --> 01:21:53.840
And you're saying there's a number of reasons why people are vegetarians and
1331
01:21:53.960 --> 01:21:56.550
there's a number of reasons why people might continue to be, or,
1332
01:21:56.551 --> 01:22:00.890
or stop being vegetarians in the case of synthetic meat
1333
01:22:01.700 --> 01:22:06.320
what it does get away from is the concerns about pain
1334
01:22:06.350 --> 01:22:10.790
during the life and suffering during the life of the animal that becomes food or
1335
01:22:10.791 --> 01:22:13.850
about concerns about shipping of animals, between places.
1336
01:22:13.851 --> 01:22:17.030
So we've got those sorts of concerns about animal slaughter. However,
1337
01:22:17.031 --> 01:22:20.960
there's also questions as as Ian was saying earlier,
1338
01:22:20.961 --> 01:22:25.580
there's the concern about the fair distribution of food and
1339
01:22:25.581 --> 01:22:29.150
sustainability of our ways of actually providing food for people.
1340
01:22:29.151 --> 01:22:30.530
So if I'm concerned about animals,
1341
01:22:30.531 --> 01:22:33.200
I should also be concerned about human animals who happen to be in places where
1342
01:22:33.201 --> 01:22:35.990
they're not currently getting access to decent food.
1343
01:22:36.681 --> 01:22:38.540
And so that we might very well say, well,
1344
01:22:39.080 --> 01:22:42.470
perhaps synthetic meat is part of that resolution,
1345
01:22:42.530 --> 01:22:45.170
but for the very same reasons that he gave before,
1346
01:22:45.380 --> 01:22:49.340
if it's the case that the resources required are not sustainable to produce food
1347
01:22:49.341 --> 01:22:51.260
in this way, or if it's the case,
1348
01:22:51.261 --> 01:22:55.640
we've got concerns about the safety of the meat produced in this way for the
1349
01:22:55.641 --> 01:22:56.560
reasons that we've had in,
1350
01:22:56.561 --> 01:23:01.190
in the the regenerative medicine about the possibility of cell
1351
01:23:01.200 --> 01:23:02.550
splitting and,
1352
01:23:02.551 --> 01:23:06.490
and questions about mutations coming through then got reason to be concerned
1353
01:23:06.491 --> 01:23:08.800
that this is going to have effect on people as well.
1354
01:23:09.100 --> 01:23:12.490
So the question of vegetarianism as someone who doesn't eat meat now,
1355
01:23:12.520 --> 01:23:15.550
I don't think I'm going to start eating synthetic meat just because no animal is
1356
01:23:15.560 --> 01:23:18.160
going to be to suffer at a later point,
1357
01:23:18.370 --> 01:23:22.420
because the reasons why I'm a vegetarian don't have to do with those particular
1358
01:23:22.810 --> 01:23:25.810
aspects about pain and suffering, or at least that's not the primary concerns,
1359
01:23:26.320 --> 01:23:28.810
but for other people you're absolutely right.
1360
01:23:28.870 --> 01:23:32.920
The question of wealth and access to me as an indicator of wealth.
1361
01:23:33.190 --> 01:23:35.560
It may be that that, that starts to shift.
1362
01:23:36.130 --> 01:23:38.350
But we also have to ask the question of whether people are going to put a
1363
01:23:38.351 --> 01:23:42.100
premium on real meat or, you know,
1364
01:23:42.640 --> 01:23:44.050
fritters that have wandered around in fields,
1365
01:23:44.080 --> 01:23:49.030
because it gives a better experience of eating
1366
01:23:49.060 --> 01:23:52.180
meat that actually for many people has a bigger aesthetic value.
1367
01:23:52.570 --> 01:23:56.800
So I think that those, that vegetarianism won't go away and some people will,
1368
01:23:56.801 --> 01:24:00.340
for the same reason that some people refuse organ donation,
1369
01:24:00.400 --> 01:24:04.630
some people just will not accept the idea of having a living creature,
1370
01:24:04.690 --> 01:24:05.530
be something they can see.
1371
01:24:06.040 --> 01:24:08.050
Okay, just a quick comment from max, and then we'll have your question.
1372
01:24:08.310 --> 01:24:12.210
My comment would be on the synthetic meat.
1373
01:24:12.990 --> 01:24:17.640
I see the fissures in that meat cause I'll well the
1374
01:24:18.270 --> 01:24:22.110
Ford may not be in the 10 year timeframe though,
1375
01:24:22.350 --> 01:24:25.170
but I think he will address several issues.
1376
01:24:25.171 --> 01:24:29.760
The NMR ethics issues is one thing that explained by
1377
01:24:29.761 --> 01:24:30.594
Susan.
1378
01:24:31.260 --> 01:24:36.210
The second issue is the or the minimize mineralization
1379
01:24:36.211 --> 01:24:38.490
of the food print carbon footprint,
1380
01:24:38.910 --> 01:24:43.800
because we you've seen the size in the lab, in the bags the, the,
1381
01:24:43.801 --> 01:24:47.730
the proteins, you know, you just need the the original stem cells.
1382
01:24:47.970 --> 01:24:52.350
And then you have the nanotechnology modified surface that will enhance the
1383
01:24:52.351 --> 01:24:55.560
growth of those cells by a factor of two or three. Now,
1384
01:24:55.590 --> 01:24:57.150
now we can observe in the labs.
1385
01:24:57.750 --> 01:25:02.580
So then means that the energy required to produce
1386
01:25:03.040 --> 01:25:07.740
a per unit mass of the need, or the protein is going to be much,
1387
01:25:07.741 --> 01:25:11.700
much less. So it's a much more energy intensive not efficient.
1388
01:25:11.970 --> 01:25:14.100
So therefore you minimize the emissions.
1389
01:25:15.450 --> 01:25:17.940
It can also address the taste experience. I mean,
1390
01:25:17.941 --> 01:25:20.760
the eating experience by using nanotechnology. In fact,
1391
01:25:20.910 --> 01:25:24.480
there are products already in Holland, in the Netherlands,
1392
01:25:24.810 --> 01:25:29.430
there's a university called university of [inaudible] who produced this
1393
01:25:31.110 --> 01:25:34.350
nanoparticle modified mayonnaise that actually tastes,
1394
01:25:34.380 --> 01:25:38.250
feels like the fat sort of counterparts,
1395
01:25:38.280 --> 01:25:42.900
but it doesn't contains the fact is that therefore give you the flavor,
1396
01:25:42.901 --> 01:25:46.590
give you the taste, it give you everything but less the calories.
1397
01:25:46.950 --> 01:25:49.440
So I think none of technology has a future in that.
1398
01:25:49.441 --> 01:25:53.160
And biotechnology has a future in contributing to that football where you take
1399
01:25:53.280 --> 01:25:58.020
longer time to produce. And also in terms of health and safety,
1400
01:25:58.200 --> 01:26:01.340
you will be much safer. A,
1401
01:26:01.470 --> 01:26:05.450
it will be a much healthier because you know, you can control the,
1402
01:26:05.640 --> 01:26:08.390
the the fact ratio in a lab.
1403
01:26:09.320 --> 01:26:12.920
But you wouldn't be able to control that unless you massage the animals.
1404
01:26:12.921 --> 01:26:16.640
And again, the beef put it on a treadmill.
1405
01:26:16.820 --> 01:26:19.340
So you can control all that, you know, as you can,
1406
01:26:19.370 --> 01:26:23.150
you can imagine you can tailor design the meat for individuals,
1407
01:26:23.420 --> 01:26:27.740
and also for different people may be some patients need different nutrients,
1408
01:26:28.100 --> 01:26:31.070
and then you can tailor those, those kinds of meat in the lab.
1409
01:26:32.150 --> 01:26:32.983
That's the question at the front.
1410
01:26:33.940 --> 01:26:38.800
People have choices today about buying sustainable products buying
1411
01:26:38.801 --> 01:26:42.640
fish that are more sustainable yet orange roughy is still on the market buying
1412
01:26:42.641 --> 01:26:44.110
kangaroo over beefs.
1413
01:26:44.170 --> 01:26:48.730
If they like their meat and therefore they can have a healthier leaner product
1414
01:26:48.731 --> 01:26:50.170
that's naturally in this environment,
1415
01:26:50.410 --> 01:26:54.700
but people still make choices on the cheapest type of meat.
1416
01:26:55.450 --> 01:26:57.610
A lot of people don't buy the organic chicken,
1417
01:26:57.611 --> 01:27:02.320
which is a happy chicken versus a non happy caged chicken.
1418
01:27:02.560 --> 01:27:06.970
I can't find in supermarkets anymore, free range,
1419
01:27:07.390 --> 01:27:08.223
hand products.
1420
01:27:08.470 --> 01:27:12.220
It gets more and more difficult to find these in those markets come up,
1421
01:27:12.250 --> 01:27:13.150
but they're not,
1422
01:27:13.810 --> 01:27:16.930
they're not supported by the dollar and that's what drives the market.
1423
01:27:16.931 --> 01:27:20.920
So what chance has something like synthetic meat got to enter this market,
1424
01:27:20.921 --> 01:27:25.030
if it's all about the cost and, oh,
1425
01:27:25.060 --> 01:27:29.410
there are a proportion of people that buy ethically and think about these
1426
01:27:29.411 --> 01:27:33.040
things, but on a general general population,
1427
01:27:33.070 --> 01:27:34.930
it's the dollar that drives all of this.
1428
01:27:34.931 --> 01:27:39.790
So the technology to put into create these foods and then market these
1429
01:27:39.791 --> 01:27:41.470
foods without the,
1430
01:27:42.100 --> 01:27:45.850
how do you expect it to actually take off in this environment?
1431
01:27:46.660 --> 01:27:47.141
So Max,
1432
01:27:47.141 --> 01:27:50.800
do you want to comment on the fact that people will in the end vote with their
1433
01:27:50.980 --> 01:27:51.813
hip pocket?
1434
01:27:52.520 --> 01:27:55.750
That's, that's correct. I mean, I'll agree in the end.
1435
01:27:56.050 --> 01:28:00.910
I think technology not only delivers the functionality,
1436
01:28:00.911 --> 01:28:04.780
the, the material, the, you know, the protein that you need,
1437
01:28:04.960 --> 01:28:09.580
but also it can be part of the technology development is to
1438
01:28:10.390 --> 01:28:13.030
reduce the cost. I think you know,
1439
01:28:13.031 --> 01:28:16.810
when you reduce cost to the level of people can afford,
1440
01:28:17.080 --> 01:28:20.680
then you have wild for product. I mean, like the iPhones and iPads.
1441
01:28:21.100 --> 01:28:24.460
So I guess ultimately it would depend on, I mean,
1442
01:28:24.461 --> 01:28:27.640
people will also choose the
1443
01:28:29.500 --> 01:28:33.550
announcing that the national meet over the spend me for other reasons,
1444
01:28:33.760 --> 01:28:38.050
religious reasons. I don't know. I mean, I, in many, many factors in our,
1445
01:28:38.080 --> 01:28:39.040
in our choices.
1446
01:28:40.690 --> 01:28:41.291
Max,
1447
01:28:41.291 --> 01:28:45.250
the technology is really quite interesting because it's all very well to make
1448
01:28:45.700 --> 01:28:48.550
muscle tissue, but muscle is more complex than that.
1449
01:28:48.551 --> 01:28:50.890
We've got blood vessels running through it.
1450
01:28:50.891 --> 01:28:54.460
We need blood to supply nutrients and get rid of waste.
1451
01:28:54.700 --> 01:28:56.590
How far are we off from that technology?
1452
01:28:57.550 --> 01:28:58.030
Well,
1453
01:28:58.030 --> 01:29:02.250
they are a lot of studies in the labs and trying to simulate them in muscles
1454
01:29:02.650 --> 01:29:07.620
there the the vessels blood vessels in the in
1455
01:29:07.630 --> 01:29:12.570
the the the cells I think it is long way
1456
01:29:12.571 --> 01:29:17.310
to to go in terms of producing the meat is you know,
1457
01:29:17.880 --> 01:29:19.320
meat in terms of the texture,
1458
01:29:19.321 --> 01:29:23.160
in terms of the other features of the meat.
1459
01:29:24.030 --> 01:29:28.620
I think that's that's exactly what the tissue engineers,
1460
01:29:28.621 --> 01:29:33.360
all these synthetic meat sand is working on trying to develop
1461
01:29:33.630 --> 01:29:38.420
the scuffles and putting the the the growth factors of
1462
01:29:38.421 --> 01:29:43.350
the the nutrients that will help to grow those kinds
1463
01:29:43.351 --> 01:29:47.940
of tissue structures. That will feel like a real meat.
1464
01:29:48.530 --> 01:29:51.890
It sounds an awful lot of processing for, for a burger.
1465
01:29:51.891 --> 01:29:56.780
And one of the health messages we often get is to eat non-processed foods.
1466
01:29:56.900 --> 01:30:00.470
I mean, how do we get around this issue? That's to comment on that?
1467
01:30:02.390 --> 01:30:04.010
Well, the processing of food,
1468
01:30:04.360 --> 01:30:09.220
I think from health was perspective the finally
1469
01:30:09.760 --> 01:30:13.300
processed food although often tastes better,
1470
01:30:13.570 --> 01:30:16.270
but they're not healthy have healthier.
1471
01:30:16.840 --> 01:30:20.170
So I think in terms of
1472
01:30:22.300 --> 01:30:26.280
the the natural ground food, where they stay awake, you know,
1473
01:30:26.590 --> 01:30:29.020
all the the rice or, you know,
1474
01:30:29.620 --> 01:30:33.490
meat better consumed naturally, not, you know,
1475
01:30:33.550 --> 01:30:38.170
further processed because while processing requests energy
1476
01:30:39.160 --> 01:30:40.180
to secondly, you know,
1477
01:30:40.240 --> 01:30:45.220
the processing will further enhance the chances of,
1478
01:30:45.310 --> 01:30:46.810
for diabetes for, you know,
1479
01:30:46.840 --> 01:30:51.580
a lot of these health problems due to the processing that actually gave
1480
01:30:51.581 --> 01:30:55.360
you the better way of metabolizing and actually,
1481
01:30:55.361 --> 01:30:59.950
you know enhancing the the the side
1482
01:31:00.370 --> 01:31:05.320
effects. So if you like of those foods where men will come and say,
1483
01:31:06.610 --> 01:31:09.620
well, it's going to paint a scenario if that's all right,
1484
01:31:10.300 --> 01:31:12.640
it's not specifically about the processing of food,
1485
01:31:12.641 --> 01:31:16.780
but I want you to think of a, of a scenario where you've got,
1486
01:31:16.781 --> 01:31:21.400
you've been set a challenge to supply high quality protein,
1487
01:31:22.330 --> 01:31:25.690
to large numbers of people that have a carbohydrate-based diet
1488
01:31:27.100 --> 01:31:32.080
and the resources that you've been asked to design to supply this high
1489
01:31:32.081 --> 01:31:36.910
quality protein to basically many
1490
01:31:36.911 --> 01:31:39.520
square kilometers of desert in central Australia.
1491
01:31:40.180 --> 01:31:45.100
And the scenario that we have is that we've just had record rains
1492
01:31:45.550 --> 01:31:46.480
in that region,
1493
01:31:46.510 --> 01:31:51.310
so that there's currently more feed or
1494
01:31:51.340 --> 01:31:52.173
grass,
1495
01:31:52.360 --> 01:31:57.160
low quality grass in central Australia than what it's been since the mid
1496
01:31:57.161 --> 01:31:58.150
1970s.
1497
01:31:59.020 --> 01:32:03.550
And so you got your little job for the
1498
01:32:03.551 --> 01:32:08.410
nanotechnologists or for someone is to design a way to be able to convert this
1499
01:32:08.411 --> 01:32:11.920
grass resource, which can't be eaten by humans,
1500
01:32:12.220 --> 01:32:15.850
but convert that to something that is high quality, protein,
1501
01:32:17.050 --> 01:32:20.800
it relatively cheap to transport and can be delivered to many people.
1502
01:32:21.940 --> 01:32:25.480
And the answer is a cow, you know,
1503
01:32:25.690 --> 01:32:27.220
while we've got full bellies in cities,
1504
01:32:27.221 --> 01:32:30.040
we can have a whole lot of very targeted arguments,
1505
01:32:30.041 --> 01:32:34.900
but if you actually think about the best way to convert vast amounts of low
1506
01:32:34.901 --> 01:32:39.190
quality feed into high quality protein to feed people,
1507
01:32:40.090 --> 01:32:43.110
it's very hard to do better than a cow. Can I comment to that?
1508
01:32:46.380 --> 01:32:50.640
The answer is that a kangaroo is actually not as efficient to harvest and not as
1509
01:32:50.641 --> 01:32:54.330
efficient at growing that high quality protein as what a cow is,
1510
01:32:55.170 --> 01:32:57.060
rabbits breed real fast, but
1511
01:32:58.800 --> 01:33:02.940
in the area that I'm talking about they would primarily end up as feed for
1512
01:33:03.510 --> 01:33:07.320
dingoes. It's actually not that simple.
1513
01:33:09.420 --> 01:33:13.950
Having been brought up on powdered egg and getting by protein
1514
01:33:13.980 --> 01:33:15.780
from peas burrows,
1515
01:33:16.110 --> 01:33:18.120
what's wrong with growing a bit more peas and making that more efficient.
1516
01:33:20.760 --> 01:33:24.750
I think the question was about growing more peas, these Braus high,
1517
01:33:24.840 --> 01:33:29.550
high protein, high protein vegetables. Yeah.
1518
01:33:29.580 --> 01:33:33.960
But this isn't food. Yeah. I don't have any problem with that,
1519
01:33:33.961 --> 01:33:38.220
but we are a land in Australia where less than 10% of the land is arable for
1520
01:33:38.221 --> 01:33:43.200
that sort of crop production. You know, we can in, in the U S for example,
1521
01:33:43.320 --> 01:33:47.190
where 90% of the land is arable great corn and soybeans, and, you know,
1522
01:33:47.191 --> 01:33:51.330
you can just drive from miles and see corn, corn, corn, but in Australia,
1523
01:33:51.480 --> 01:33:54.180
we very little of our land is,
1524
01:33:54.181 --> 01:33:58.680
is airable and able to go high quality
1525
01:33:58.681 --> 01:34:00.210
crops like that.
1526
01:34:00.270 --> 01:34:05.070
And so the ruminant species like sheep and cattle,
1527
01:34:05.400 --> 01:34:08.910
some of our native species are specialists at being able to cope in the,
1528
01:34:09.330 --> 01:34:12.660
in the pasture lands where you know,
1529
01:34:12.661 --> 01:34:15.210
there's a resource that we can actually use for feeding people.
1530
01:34:15.480 --> 01:34:19.770
So it's not that simple. Can we grow more peace? We, we
1531
01:34:21.720 --> 01:34:25.110
not using all of the land that we could for growing peas at the moment,
1532
01:34:25.140 --> 01:34:30.090
but a fair bit of it just to give an example of how things are
1533
01:34:30.091 --> 01:34:33.450
driven by the hip pocket lentils are another good example
1534
01:34:34.850 --> 01:34:39.810
a farm manager at Roseworthy where I'm based said to me this week
1535
01:34:39.811 --> 01:34:43.020
that he may stop growing lentils because she could currently more profitable to
1536
01:34:43.021 --> 01:34:47.820
grow than than lentils. So there are market forces in these things as well.
1537
01:34:48.690 --> 01:34:49.110
Let's.
1538
01:34:49.110 --> 01:34:50.160
Do a quick question on the back.
1539
01:34:50.480 --> 01:34:55.320
Can I just ask about the crew question because again the crew
1540
01:34:55.321 --> 01:34:57.000
crop and the Antarctic,
1541
01:34:57.050 --> 01:35:00.920
I'm sure the Russians are just about to move in again as a very good protein
1542
01:35:00.921 --> 01:35:04.160
source, but you can't you can't preserve it for a long,
1543
01:35:04.161 --> 01:35:05.960
you've got to get it to the market very quickly.
1544
01:35:06.740 --> 01:35:10.550
We also have a problem with so many people now in official capsules and fish
1545
01:35:10.580 --> 01:35:14.210
oils, and we're, you know, we're, we're insidiously moving into the clue crop,
1546
01:35:14.211 --> 01:35:16.460
which of course feeds a lot of our other large mammals.
1547
01:35:16.790 --> 01:35:20.630
Can we grow krill as a synthetic protein?
1548
01:35:26.350 --> 01:35:28.750
Is there anyone that would like to comment on that?
1549
01:35:32.320 --> 01:35:32.320
Yeah [inaudable]. Just
1550
01:35:32.320 --> 01:35:32.320
stimulate the muscles as much and you probably don't need it to be synthetic. W
1551
01:35:32.320 --> 01:35:33.153
e just need to have an environment within which you can do that. Yeah.
1552
01:35:42.280 --> 01:35:46.420
Well, I think on that note, we should wrap up because we've run out of time.
1553
01:35:46.841 --> 01:35:50.350
So thank you to our speakers and everyone on the expert panel.
1554
01:35:52.390 --> 01:35:54.280
I think just for interest's sake,
1555
01:35:54.310 --> 01:35:58.090
it might be a nice to see how people's opinions may have changed or stayed the
1556
01:35:58.091 --> 01:36:02.290
same regarding these three technologies that we've explored today.
1557
01:36:02.530 --> 01:36:05.650
So if you can get your clicker pads for the last time,
1558
01:36:05.680 --> 01:36:10.420
we can answer these questions. So which of 'em
1559
01:36:12.700 --> 01:36:15.730
which of the following three statements best sums up your attitude towards the
1560
01:36:15.731 --> 01:36:20.320
developments in science and technology option one, two or three
1561
01:36:22.960 --> 01:36:27.070
thumbs up. Okay. Let's see if we can remember
1562
01:36:28.750 --> 01:36:31.030
what it was originally. Okay.
1563
01:36:31.031 --> 01:36:35.230
So there's 4% of people that think that science has a negative impact on
1564
01:36:35.231 --> 01:36:38.290
society. That's double the amount at the beginning of the session.
1565
01:36:40.240 --> 01:36:44.060
Is that a false positive? Was that you,
1566
01:36:45.490 --> 01:36:46.323
what was one of.
1567
01:36:49.770 --> 01:36:54.040
The symptoms? And science is very good at finding solutions.
1568
01:37:00.160 --> 01:37:04.930
Yes. To talk about not trying to feed 9 billion people with some
1569
01:37:05.800 --> 01:37:09.970
artificial protein that maybe we should have less painful so that we don't be
1570
01:37:09.971 --> 01:37:13.180
driven down this path. So that's why I moved to the 4%.
1571
01:37:14.340 --> 01:37:18.190
That's why conservation comes in. Yep. All right. Moving onto the next one,
1572
01:37:20.950 --> 01:37:25.240
which best describes your general attitude towards the potential implications of
1573
01:37:25.270 --> 01:37:29.050
enabling technologies like biotechnology and nanotechnology.
1574
01:37:30.360 --> 01:37:33.190
You're more excited about it now after hearing the session,
1575
01:37:35.290 --> 01:37:37.810
less excited, concerned, that'd be alarmed.
1576
01:37:39.220 --> 01:37:43.540
Everyone voted or people voting. Okay. Let's see.
1577
01:37:45.130 --> 01:37:49.570
All right. So I think it was, that's a similar result to what we had.
1578
01:37:50.800 --> 01:37:55.650
Half the people are hopeful and the others are excited. 3% are alarmed.
1579
01:37:56.730 --> 01:37:58.860
Who's alarmed by it. I don't think anyone's alarmed in the first one.
1580
01:38:01.820 --> 01:38:06.050
Who's alarmed by the science. No one wants to admit it.
1581
01:38:08.630 --> 01:38:13.400
Okie dokie. All right.
1582
01:38:13.430 --> 01:38:14.540
Moving onto my next one.
1583
01:38:16.370 --> 01:38:20.480
Who should the primary decision-makers be meeting the enabling technology
1584
01:38:20.481 --> 01:38:25.460
applications. 10 seconds to answer.
1585
01:38:26.150 --> 01:38:27.770
Should we leave it to the scientists
1586
01:38:29.990 --> 01:38:34.490
did note that there's no ethicists as an option ethics committees,
1587
01:38:35.000 --> 01:38:39.410
and then an option. Let's have a look.
1588
01:38:40.880 --> 01:38:43.280
I want as much trust in the scientist, as I thought,
1589
01:38:43.520 --> 01:38:47.270
who doesn't trust the scientists? Yeah.
1590
01:38:48.050 --> 01:38:52.370
Fair few of you. Okay. Anyone wanna make a comment?
1591
01:38:56.030 --> 01:39:00.320
And that's all we have. Is that all we have? Yep. That's all good.
1592
01:39:01.400 --> 01:39:02.091
All right. Well,
1593
01:39:02.091 --> 01:39:05.330
I'm sure you'll all agree that that was a stimulating conversation.
1594
01:39:05.660 --> 01:39:08.240
And once again, thank you to our panelists.
1595
01:39:08.480 --> 01:39:12.410
We also want to thank us for hosting this event
1596
01:39:13.310 --> 01:39:18.020
and also to bridge because they were the people doing the video
1597
01:39:18.021 --> 01:39:19.160
animations that you saw.
1598
01:39:19.770 --> 01:39:23.600
This was also supported by the national enabling technology strategy expert
1599
01:39:23.601 --> 01:39:27.350
forum, and the department of innovation, industry science and research.
1600
01:39:27.351 --> 01:39:32.060
So thank you to to you all for allowing the session to happen. You already.