WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.900 I would now like to introduce the chair for this evening's session, Shelley Ware. 2 00:00:08.180 --> 00:00:13.200 Welcome everyone to the Fair Game Illuminate Adelaide Racism in Sport Forum. 3 00:00:13.400 --> 00:00:16.340 My name is Shelley Ware and I will be the chairperson tonight. 4 00:00:16.600 --> 00:00:20.540 Sorry I couldn't be there in person but you know COVID, it has different ideas. 5 00:00:20.860 --> 00:00:25.720 So I'm very grateful to the Illuminate team who have made this magic happen. 6 00:00:25.720 --> 00:00:32.580 I'd also like to start by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land of the Kaurna people from which this forum is taking place 7 00:00:32.580 --> 00:00:37.780 and also for the traditional owners of the land on which you are listening and learning from tonight. 8 00:00:38.100 --> 00:00:41.640 I pay my respects to all elders past, present and emerging 9 00:00:41.640 --> 00:00:46.340 and I'd like to acknowledge all other Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people here tonight. 10 00:00:46.740 --> 00:00:51.560 So thank you for that beautiful welcome to country and thank you everyone for being here tonight. 11 00:00:52.460 --> 00:00:55.480 Let's start by introducing our panel, shall we? 12 00:00:55.720 --> 00:01:02.440 I won't go into their long list of accomplishments as we only have an hour and a half together and we will be here all night. 13 00:01:02.680 --> 00:01:08.200 We certainly want to hear about their thoughts in racism in sports today and moving forward. 14 00:01:08.500 --> 00:01:13.040 We'll start with Bruce Jushite who is the Director of Football at Adelaide United, 15 00:01:13.340 --> 00:01:22.760 a former socceroo, Ollyroo and junior socceroo who is also currently the CEO of the Committee for Adelaide Leadership. 16 00:01:23.180 --> 00:01:24.920 So welcome to you, Bruce. 17 00:01:26.020 --> 00:01:31.440 Karen Lee has extensive experience and leadership in social policy and justice reform. 18 00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:36.680 She's currently the General Manager of Social Impact and Policy at the Collingwood Football Club. 19 00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:43.740 Paul Vandenberg is the Experienced Programme Manager with demonstrated history in sports industry 20 00:01:43.740 --> 00:01:47.660 and is currently the Diversity Talent Manager at AFL. 21 00:01:48.700 --> 00:01:54.500 Tanya Hosh is the first Indigenous person and second woman appointed to the AFL executive team 22 00:01:54.500 --> 00:01:55.700 and is currently the Director of Football at the College of Women's Football. 23 00:01:55.720 --> 00:02:00.380 the Executive General Manager for Inclusion and Social Policy at the AFL. 24 00:02:00.460 --> 00:02:05.160 But last but certainly not least, Gavin Wangening, an AFL legend of the game. 25 00:02:05.320 --> 00:02:10.680 He is currently an accomplished contemporary Aboriginal artist about to appear on Survivor 26 00:02:10.680 --> 00:02:12.780 this Sunday, so make sure you tune in. 27 00:02:13.220 --> 00:02:14.600 So let's get started. 28 00:02:16.580 --> 00:02:19.480 And please welcome them all with a round of applause, everyone. 29 00:02:25.860 --> 00:02:27.200 So let's get started. 30 00:02:27.220 --> 00:02:32.620 I'd like to acknowledge firstly the bravery of the panellists as it's often a personal 31 00:02:32.620 --> 00:02:34.540 and often triggering topic to discuss. 32 00:02:34.840 --> 00:02:37.120 So thank you all so much for being here. 33 00:02:37.300 --> 00:02:41.780 I know it's a take a toll on you even though it is so important to have these discussions. 34 00:02:42.920 --> 00:02:44.500 Gavin, I want to start with you. 35 00:02:45.580 --> 00:02:50.540 You've been involved in the AFL at an elite level for the majority of your life. 36 00:02:50.860 --> 00:02:55.600 You've seen the greats like Adam Goodes and Nicky Winmar and many current 37 00:02:55.600 --> 00:02:58.180 day players make a stand up against racism. 38 00:02:58.580 --> 00:03:03.500 In your opinion, do you think racism in the sport is the same in your time as you've travelled 39 00:03:03.500 --> 00:03:03.780 through? 40 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:06.000 Worse or do you think it's actually getting better? 41 00:03:08.640 --> 00:03:10.580 Yeah, that's a very good question. 42 00:03:10.820 --> 00:03:12.460 I've thought long and hard about it. 43 00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:24.040 I think what Adam Goodes has done in standing up for himself and watching and seeing what 44 00:03:24.040 --> 00:03:24.840 he had to go through. 45 00:03:24.840 --> 00:03:29.100 Not actually realising until much later in the piece what was actually happening. 46 00:03:30.500 --> 00:03:37.160 I think that's an opportunity to create a really important topic and something we can 47 00:03:37.160 --> 00:03:46.120 talk about to educate the wider community and also I guess the people who haven't educated 48 00:03:46.120 --> 00:03:52.660 themselves about Indigenous culture and First Nations people and the trauma that the Stolen 49 00:03:52.660 --> 00:03:53.660 Generation has. 50 00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:12.260 I think like you said like you said like you said like you said like you said like you 51 00:04:12.260 --> 00:04:12.480 like you like you like you like you like you like you like you like you like you like 52 00:04:12.480 --> 00:04:12.660 like you like you like you like you like you like you like you like you like 53 00:04:12.660 --> 00:04:12.980 like you like you like you like you like you like 54 00:04:12.980 --> 00:04:14.000 like you like you like you like you like you like 55 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:16.300 like you like you like you like 56 00:04:16.300 --> 00:04:17.160 like you like you like you like 57 00:04:17.160 --> 00:04:24.820 like you like 58 00:04:24.840 --> 00:04:27.640 It's a very impactful education 59 00:04:27.640 --> 00:04:32.320 and I think the real power sits outside of Aboriginal people. 60 00:04:32.460 --> 00:04:34.080 I think it's with the wider community. 61 00:04:34.220 --> 00:04:39.640 In my opinion, I think the majority of people get it. 62 00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:41.480 It's just that... 63 00:04:42.580 --> 00:04:44.220 Can we say minority? I don't know. 64 00:04:44.260 --> 00:04:46.400 Maybe. I could be wrong. I could... 65 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:51.040 But I think they're the ones who need to be educated and called out. 66 00:04:51.040 --> 00:04:54.280 So, hopefully, one day we can get to a place 67 00:04:54.280 --> 00:04:55.640 where it is a thing of the past 68 00:04:55.640 --> 00:04:59.160 because it shouldn't be about the colour of your skin, your race. 69 00:04:59.760 --> 00:05:03.220 People should be treated as individuals and not as a whole. 70 00:05:03.340 --> 00:05:06.240 So, yeah, I think a few steps forward, one step back. 71 00:05:07.060 --> 00:05:08.560 We've been going for a while now. 72 00:05:10.140 --> 00:05:12.100 We certainly have. Thank you. 73 00:05:12.500 --> 00:05:16.360 Now, Paul, you've also had a successful career in basketball. 74 00:05:16.780 --> 00:05:20.400 Can you share the impacts of being racially vilified 75 00:05:20.400 --> 00:05:21.020 and how it's affected you? 76 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:24.460 And where it takes you as a sports person and then as a person? 77 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:28.140 We're going there already. Far out. 78 00:05:28.280 --> 00:05:29.520 I thought we were going to warm up to that. 79 00:05:29.740 --> 00:05:30.720 Well, you know, I'm just saying. 80 00:05:32.940 --> 00:05:35.000 I don't like to muck around, Paul. 81 00:05:35.180 --> 00:05:36.640 Yeah, that's true. I know. 82 00:05:37.820 --> 00:05:40.300 Yeah, it's a really tough question to answer, actually, 83 00:05:40.420 --> 00:05:43.920 because at the moment when it has happened, 84 00:05:44.460 --> 00:05:45.720 it's really hard to deal with 85 00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:50.520 and I was pretty quiet and shy, like most of my family are. 86 00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:53.600 And so you bury it and you don't say anything. 87 00:05:53.660 --> 00:05:57.060 You don't call it out, particularly probably in the basketball sense, too. 88 00:05:57.160 --> 00:06:01.520 I always felt like I was not felt like I was the only Aboriginal person 89 00:06:01.520 --> 00:06:04.080 often on the court when I played in the NBL, 90 00:06:04.080 --> 00:06:05.960 was the only Aboriginal person in the whole league. 91 00:06:06.440 --> 00:06:08.660 So I really felt quite isolated. 92 00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:13.100 And probably at that stage, without giving away my age, 93 00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:15.520 which is a while ago, playing in professional basketball, 94 00:06:17.780 --> 00:06:19.400 they didn't have the supports in place. 95 00:06:19.440 --> 00:06:20.860 We didn't talk about culture. 96 00:06:21.040 --> 00:06:21.440 We didn't talk about awareness training. 97 00:06:21.900 --> 00:06:25.320 We didn't talk about well-being and support for players. 98 00:06:26.020 --> 00:06:28.580 So back then, you're sort of left to your own device, right? 99 00:06:28.660 --> 00:06:32.300 So often it was just a call to mum, 100 00:06:32.940 --> 00:06:34.940 sometimes a hug, if I could get that out of her, 101 00:06:36.880 --> 00:06:39.420 and talking with family to get through those sorts of moments. 102 00:06:39.460 --> 00:06:43.280 So I think now that I've sort of transitioned out of playing 103 00:06:43.280 --> 00:06:46.180 and going off the field and working at the AFL now, 104 00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:50.720 I think that's driven me to put policies and procedures 105 00:06:51.040 --> 00:06:54.740 and supports in place for players and staff members, 106 00:06:54.940 --> 00:06:57.540 I guess in my previous role at the Port Adelaide Football Club, 107 00:06:58.300 --> 00:06:59.160 but now at the AFL, 108 00:06:59.180 --> 00:07:01.360 like working really closely with Tanya and her team 109 00:07:01.960 --> 00:07:04.780 about what can we actually put in place to make a difference 110 00:07:04.780 --> 00:07:08.080 and how do we increase Aboriginal participation 111 00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:12.380 both internally at the AFL but across the league? 112 00:07:12.580 --> 00:07:15.560 How do we create more get-born players? 113 00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:17.980 How do we create better pathways for players to be drafted, 114 00:07:18.100 --> 00:07:19.180 both men and women? 115 00:07:20.080 --> 00:07:20.560 Coaches? 116 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:22.400 How do we create better pathways for players to be drafted? 117 00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:23.120 How do we create better pathways for players to be drafted? 118 00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:25.940 How do we create better pathways for players to be drafted? 119 00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:29.780 And I think that's just because of the past experiences 120 00:07:29.780 --> 00:07:32.980 that we've all had that we probably felt a little bit isolated at the time, 121 00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:36.000 but I think we've made some huge inroads as a league, 122 00:07:36.760 --> 00:07:37.520 especially AFL. 123 00:07:37.580 --> 00:07:39.500 I think the AFL has really led a lot of this space 124 00:07:40.140 --> 00:07:41.460 and doing some great things, 125 00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:44.380 but still Tanya and I will always acknowledge 126 00:07:44.380 --> 00:07:47.400 that there's still a long way to go as well in our sport 127 00:07:47.400 --> 00:07:48.520 and in our country. 128 00:07:50.120 --> 00:07:50.500 Yeah. 129 00:07:51.040 --> 00:07:53.580 As much as it pains one to actually say those words, 130 00:07:53.700 --> 00:07:54.720 there's a long way to go. 131 00:07:55.200 --> 00:07:59.200 Now, Bruce, you have had a massive career in soccer. 132 00:08:00.920 --> 00:08:03.580 Reflecting on the two questions that I asked Gavin and Paul, 133 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:07.000 what are your thoughts on where we are now with racism 134 00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:09.120 and the impact it has on people? 135 00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:12.860 Yeah, look, I was really interested in Gavin's answer. 136 00:08:14.400 --> 00:08:16.340 Two steps forward, one step back. 137 00:08:16.580 --> 00:08:18.960 I think there's a changing landscape as well. 138 00:08:19.420 --> 00:08:21.020 So socially... 139 00:08:21.040 --> 00:08:21.260 Social media. 140 00:08:21.540 --> 00:08:23.160 That's the elephant in the room, right? 141 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:28.740 With racist abuse and the ability of everyday people 142 00:08:28.740 --> 00:08:32.080 to be able to connect or send a message directly 143 00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:36.460 to a sporting superstar or whoever it might be. 144 00:08:36.660 --> 00:08:37.180 A politician. 145 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:38.400 It could be anyone. 146 00:08:38.580 --> 00:08:39.540 Someone with a profile. 147 00:08:40.560 --> 00:08:44.600 So you look at the Euros and what happened to those three English boys. 148 00:08:45.540 --> 00:08:48.460 As soon as that penalty was missed, I knew exactly straight away. 149 00:08:49.020 --> 00:08:50.140 Straight away. 150 00:08:50.140 --> 00:08:50.460 Straight away. 151 00:08:50.460 --> 00:08:50.760 Straight away. 152 00:08:51.040 --> 00:08:51.600 Straight away. 153 00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:52.700 This guy's going to get smashed. 154 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:55.640 And they're all going to get smashed on social media. 155 00:08:56.180 --> 00:09:01.000 You know, and that's why sometimes it does feel like two steps forward, 156 00:09:01.020 --> 00:09:03.880 one step back, because, yes, people are calling it out 157 00:09:03.880 --> 00:09:07.640 and, you know, people are discussing it in open forums now. 158 00:09:08.240 --> 00:09:13.960 But on the flip side, the dark side of it is more prevalent. 159 00:09:14.060 --> 00:09:17.820 Well, it seems more prevalent because it's so much more easily accessible. 160 00:09:18.260 --> 00:09:18.780 Right? 161 00:09:18.900 --> 00:09:20.880 It's very easy to jump on Instagram. 162 00:09:21.040 --> 00:09:23.880 And tweet to Rashford or tweet to Saka. 163 00:09:24.040 --> 00:09:27.280 So it does feel a bit like that. 164 00:09:27.340 --> 00:09:29.300 But I'd say it's a changing landscape. 165 00:09:30.280 --> 00:09:32.440 Education is definitely a big part of it. 166 00:09:32.740 --> 00:09:37.740 But also I think some of these, some of the most powerful organisations in the world, 167 00:09:37.800 --> 00:09:40.620 your Facebooks, you know, your Twitters, 168 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:43.800 they've got to do something about the policies that they have. 169 00:09:43.940 --> 00:09:50.240 You know, how is it that these organisations have some of the most powerful computers, 170 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:54.620 most powerful algorithms, know you better than you know yourself, 171 00:09:55.940 --> 00:09:58.920 know how to sell you something before you even realise you needed it, 172 00:10:00.680 --> 00:10:08.320 but don't have the capability to stop someone filming a massacre in New Zealand, 173 00:10:08.600 --> 00:10:14.360 which we saw a few years back, or racist remarks, racist emojis. 174 00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:19.160 How can you not be able to take them down? 175 00:10:19.260 --> 00:10:20.220 I don't know. 176 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:21.580 After a while, someone's got to complain. 177 00:10:21.660 --> 00:10:22.740 A few people got to complain. 178 00:10:23.080 --> 00:10:24.320 You know, it's abusive. 179 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:26.500 It's, you know, it's racist or whatever. 180 00:10:26.660 --> 00:10:27.820 And they might take it down. 181 00:10:27.940 --> 00:10:33.180 But I think, you know, we're in an evolving situation. 182 00:10:34.540 --> 00:10:35.960 And racism is prevalent. 183 00:10:36.060 --> 00:10:36.740 That's clear. 184 00:10:38.200 --> 00:10:40.160 And we can do everything we can. 185 00:10:40.260 --> 00:10:45.800 But it would be really helpful if some of these huge organisations also played their part as well. 186 00:10:48.300 --> 00:10:49.600 Now, touching on that, Ted, 187 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:52.640 you've done some brilliant work and working hard in this space. 188 00:10:52.860 --> 00:10:56.660 Can you let everyone know what is actually happening in the work that you're doing in AFL 189 00:10:56.660 --> 00:10:58.340 with social media and racism? 190 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:01.780 Sorry, was that me, Shelley? 191 00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:02.580 Yeah. 192 00:11:02.600 --> 00:11:03.280 Yeah, sorry. 193 00:11:03.400 --> 00:11:03.640 Yes. 194 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:12.200 Yeah, so, yeah, following on from where Bruce left off there, 195 00:11:12.380 --> 00:11:15.140 when I arrived at the AFL in 2016, 196 00:11:17.400 --> 00:11:20.140 I started to realise that a lot of, 197 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:24.300 you know, the abuse that was taking place was online. 198 00:11:25.660 --> 00:11:30.060 You know, when Michael Long, Shea Cockatoo Collins, Gilbert McAdam, 199 00:11:32.120 --> 00:11:38.000 Michael McLean worked with the late Tony Peake at the AFL 200 00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:43.640 to say enough's enough in relation to the racism that was happening on field, 201 00:11:44.040 --> 00:11:50.140 the AFL developed one of the first religious and racial vilification policies 202 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:51.920 of any sporting code in the world. 203 00:11:52.760 --> 00:11:54.860 And it has been incredibly successful 204 00:11:55.540 --> 00:11:59.200 in terms of dealing with racial vilification on field 205 00:11:59.200 --> 00:12:01.520 at the elite level of the game. 206 00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:03.140 Really successful. 207 00:12:04.680 --> 00:12:07.700 I'm nearly five seasons in at the AFL, 208 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:09.300 because we talk about seasons, not years, 209 00:12:10.040 --> 00:12:17.680 and there's been very, very few accounts made of vilification on field 210 00:12:17.680 --> 00:12:20.220 at the elite level of the men's field. 211 00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:21.040 And I'm not talking about the men's or the women's game. 212 00:12:21.860 --> 00:12:24.640 Community level footy is completely different. 213 00:12:25.040 --> 00:12:28.240 It's, there's way too many incidents still, 214 00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:31.760 and yeah, we're dealing with those constantly. 215 00:12:32.200 --> 00:12:39.440 Now, what I discovered in looking at the research that had been done 216 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:44.360 in relation to the effectiveness of what was then called the Peake Rule, 217 00:12:44.460 --> 00:12:47.160 I mean, Rule 35, which we now call the Peake Rule, 218 00:12:47.220 --> 00:12:49.360 after a review of the policy, 219 00:12:49.500 --> 00:12:50.160 um, 220 00:12:50.220 --> 00:12:50.620 ! 221 00:12:50.620 --> 00:12:52.080 in the last couple of years, 222 00:12:53.220 --> 00:12:57.400 is that, um, the social media stuff just wasn't around 223 00:12:57.400 --> 00:12:59.000 when the policy was developed. 224 00:12:59.940 --> 00:13:04.880 So certainly, you know, most sporting organisations will have 225 00:13:05.940 --> 00:13:08.980 some degree of a commercial relationship with social media 226 00:13:08.980 --> 00:13:11.200 and digital platforms, because we have to. 227 00:13:12.100 --> 00:13:15.220 So it's quite interesting when you start to unpack 228 00:13:15.220 --> 00:13:19.600 how these sort of quite codependent relationships exist, 229 00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:25.300 because obviously social media is fabulous for a whole range of us 230 00:13:25.300 --> 00:13:27.180 in communicating with each other. 231 00:13:27.980 --> 00:13:32.780 But there's no firm lines in the ground about when people overstep. 232 00:13:33.340 --> 00:13:38.940 So we started having conversations with social media people. 233 00:13:39.260 --> 00:13:43.740 It was difficult originally, because there was a commercial imperative, 234 00:13:43.920 --> 00:13:49.580 and here I am in the social policy back blocks of the AFL, wanting to have some conversation, 235 00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:50.220 and I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. 236 00:13:51.020 --> 00:13:54.900 I now sit on the Hate Speech Advisory Group for Facebook, 237 00:13:55.040 --> 00:13:57.880 and also their Aboriginal Affairs Group. 238 00:13:58.440 --> 00:14:03.840 Now, the reason I decided to do that was because it just gave me more opportunities to lobby 239 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:04.100 them. 240 00:14:04.820 --> 00:14:10.500 At the same time, we definitely reached out to government to say, 241 00:14:10.620 --> 00:14:11.900 okay, well, what are we going to do? 242 00:14:12.040 --> 00:14:15.400 In Australia, we've got something called the eSafety Commissioner, 243 00:14:15.560 --> 00:14:17.400 which is held by Julie Inman Grant. 244 00:14:18.300 --> 00:14:19.580 And I, um, I'm a member of the E-Safety Commission, and I'm a member of the E-Safety Commission, 245 00:14:19.580 --> 00:14:22.480 and I went and introduced myself to her, and we started having conversations. 246 00:14:23.080 --> 00:14:27.360 Then in late 2019, the federal government announced that they were going to do a review 247 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:34.420 into the eSafety Commissioner's powers, and we were very quick to put in a submission, 248 00:14:34.700 --> 00:14:40.840 really wanting her powers to be expanded to include adults, because her position was originally 249 00:14:40.840 --> 00:14:46.980 set up to deal with bullying of children and potential grooming of children online. 250 00:14:47.800 --> 00:14:54.500 So recently, after a lot of work and a lot of lobbying by a lot of people, it's only 251 00:14:54.500 --> 00:14:59.960 been in the last month that the federal parliament has passed new legislation that expands the 252 00:14:59.960 --> 00:15:05.860 powers of the eSafety Commissioner, where she will actually be able to force social 253 00:15:05.860 --> 00:15:11.220 media platforms to remove harmful material, whether it's towards a young person or an 254 00:15:11.220 --> 00:15:11.520 adult. 255 00:15:11.900 --> 00:15:15.600 And that will include sexism, homophobia and racism. 256 00:15:16.020 --> 00:15:16.960 So, um, that's what we're doing. 257 00:15:17.720 --> 00:15:18.460 We're not going to be able to force the eSafety Commissioner to remove harmful material 258 00:15:18.460 --> 00:15:18.980 them to remove the content of the eSafety Commissioner's powers, and she'll be able 259 00:15:18.980 --> 00:15:21.720 to force them to take that material down in 24 hours. 260 00:15:22.020 --> 00:15:28.020 Now, that's not as far as that needs to go, but it is a step in the right direction. 261 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:35.000 And what we've found is by joining up with the eSafety Commissioner, and we've got a 262 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:41.500 lot more work to do yet, she's able to leverage her relationships with those digital platform 263 00:15:41.500 --> 00:15:42.380 giants. 264 00:15:42.380 --> 00:15:52.880 I think you can tell you can trust them like you trust them like you trust them like you 265 00:15:52.880 --> 00:15:57.820 trust them like you trust them like you trust them like you trust them like you trust them 266 00:15:57.820 --> 00:16:00.480 like you trust them like you trust them like you trust them like you trust them like you 267 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:01.160 trust them like you trust them like you trust them like you trust them like you trust them 268 00:16:01.160 --> 00:16:01.300 like you trust them like you trust them like you trust them like you trust them like you 269 00:16:01.300 --> 00:16:03.240 trust them like you trust them like you trust them like you trust them like you trust them 270 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:12.360 trust them like you trust them like you trust them like you trust them like you trust them like you 271 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:19.260 them in another folder, which you can access if you choose to and then report those incidents, 272 00:16:19.560 --> 00:16:25.400 or you can just choose never to look at that stuff at all. But again, that's only part 273 00:16:25.400 --> 00:16:31.640 of what needs to happen. So, look, I mean, I was really pleased about the expanding of 274 00:16:31.640 --> 00:16:37.860 the legislation. I followed it very carefully. I was really pleased it happened. But I think 275 00:16:37.860 --> 00:16:42.640 as we all know, and as Bruce just said, they're incredibly powerful. And what we do have to 276 00:16:42.640 --> 00:16:50.780 remember is that it is harmful. And sometimes that harm has massive, massive consequences. 277 00:16:51.340 --> 00:16:56.920 It's not consequence free. It's not just name calling. Some of the stuff that we've seen 278 00:16:56.920 --> 00:17:03.060 on some of the players' accounts, because their team lost or the player decided to transfer 279 00:17:03.060 --> 00:17:07.840 to another club, you would not believe the hateful, the negative, the negative, the negative 280 00:17:07.840 --> 00:17:15.540 vile, nasty stuff that people can post. And often doing it through fabricated accounts. 281 00:17:15.880 --> 00:17:22.060 That's the other thing with Instagram. With the new settings, it's much harder for people 282 00:17:22.060 --> 00:17:26.820 to continue to create new anonymous accounts. So that's the other reason why it's really 283 00:17:26.820 --> 00:17:33.340 important to report this stuff when it happens. I think we all need to flood these companies 284 00:17:33.340 --> 00:17:37.820 with the reporting. We need to keep letting them know that we're not happy. We need to 285 00:17:37.840 --> 00:17:45.160 trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust 286 00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:50.540 them to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them to 287 00:17:50.540 --> 00:17:53.600 trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them 288 00:17:53.600 --> 00:17:54.160 to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them 289 00:17:54.160 --> 00:17:54.640 to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them 290 00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:56.200 to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them 291 00:17:56.200 --> 00:18:04.300 to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them 292 00:18:04.300 --> 00:18:07.820 trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them to trust them 293 00:18:07.840 --> 00:18:09.700 on that one, making those changes there. 294 00:18:09.780 --> 00:18:11.180 It's been fantastic to see. 295 00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:16.440 So, Taryn, is sport the great equaliser that Australians 296 00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:18.440 like to tell themselves that it is? 297 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:19.600 What are your thoughts on that? 298 00:18:20.380 --> 00:18:22.100 Is it the great equaliser? 299 00:18:23.540 --> 00:18:25.420 I think it has the... 300 00:18:25.420 --> 00:18:28.580 I'm not sure if equaliser is the... 301 00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:33.560 Does it have the power to change? 302 00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:37.140 I think so, absolutely. 303 00:18:37.840 --> 00:18:42.060 And, you know, unlike the rest of my colleagues up here, 304 00:18:42.180 --> 00:18:46.820 I don't have a background in sport like everyone here. 305 00:18:47.240 --> 00:18:50.400 But I definitely think that it does 306 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:53.780 because of the people following and the passion. 307 00:18:54.200 --> 00:19:00.060 And in the same way, you know, that the power of social media, 308 00:19:00.220 --> 00:19:02.860 it only has the power because of the people. 309 00:19:04.120 --> 00:19:07.020 So, like in the UK, 310 00:19:07.080 --> 00:19:07.820 with social media, 311 00:19:07.820 --> 00:19:10.700 and what they're doing with racism now, 312 00:19:11.500 --> 00:19:12.920 you know, the whole... 313 00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:14.420 the Players Association, 314 00:19:14.900 --> 00:19:18.740 it's not just the players that are having to stand up against the racism. 315 00:19:19.220 --> 00:19:20.380 It's not the people. 316 00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:23.520 It's not us as people of colour and blackfellas 317 00:19:23.520 --> 00:19:25.240 that now have to stand up and say, 318 00:19:25.400 --> 00:19:30.520 I'm feeling hurt, I'm experiencing and absorbing all of the harm and the hate. 319 00:19:30.900 --> 00:19:34.740 Now, you know, I think this week's experience with soccer 320 00:19:34.740 --> 00:19:36.880 is that, you know, those... 321 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:41.460 those young boys playing soccer and the whole, you know, 322 00:19:42.300 --> 00:19:45.220 Prince William is saying that's no good. 323 00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:48.840 You know, the Players Association are saying no. 324 00:19:49.620 --> 00:19:54.300 Boris Johnson is saying, you know, is pushing back. 325 00:19:54.500 --> 00:20:00.020 Like, and I think it's that kind of pressure on social media 326 00:20:00.020 --> 00:20:02.180 within the sport. 327 00:20:02.340 --> 00:20:05.340 And it's sport that gets everybody's attention, 328 00:20:05.580 --> 00:20:06.860 those people's attention. 329 00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:08.620 That changes... 330 00:20:09.840 --> 00:20:11.940 that makes the changes for good. 331 00:20:12.060 --> 00:20:16.120 So, yes, I do think that, you know, when people... 332 00:20:16.120 --> 00:20:18.240 you know, people often say there's that saying, 333 00:20:18.380 --> 00:20:21.480 hey, Shelley, you know, like, sport, you know, the power of good. 334 00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:24.760 Like, I do... I do believe... believe in that, 335 00:20:24.820 --> 00:20:27.660 but I do think we do have a long way to go. 336 00:20:29.180 --> 00:20:30.620 Yeah, we sure do. 337 00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:33.300 Now, Bruce, everyone has touched on what happened in soccer. 338 00:20:33.420 --> 00:20:35.920 It was pretty disgraceful what happened in the media. 339 00:20:36.380 --> 00:20:36.780 Yeah. 340 00:20:36.780 --> 00:20:39.720 And what also happened in the social media setting as well. 341 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:44.120 The issue being that there isn't a lot of diversity of people in colour, 342 00:20:44.340 --> 00:20:47.220 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people on boards, 343 00:20:47.360 --> 00:20:48.880 managers, referees. 344 00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:52.220 What do you think needs to happen to the systems in place 345 00:20:52.220 --> 00:20:55.380 to better protect the players and fans 346 00:20:55.380 --> 00:20:57.560 from regularification here in Australia? 347 00:21:00.260 --> 00:21:02.780 I think consequences need to be harsher. 348 00:21:04.460 --> 00:21:05.740 I think that... 349 00:21:06.780 --> 00:21:09.600 sports operate on their own patch. 350 00:21:11.080 --> 00:21:14.780 You've got the AFL, you've got Football Australia, 351 00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:17.600 you've got netball, you've got basketball, 352 00:21:17.740 --> 00:21:19.080 you've got all these different associations, 353 00:21:19.080 --> 00:21:23.640 but I think if they did all come together on this particular issue, 354 00:21:24.560 --> 00:21:26.480 it would be far greater reaching. 355 00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:29.860 I think that they could make a really significant change. 356 00:21:30.080 --> 00:21:33.700 They can apply an extreme amount of pressure 357 00:21:33.700 --> 00:21:35.360 on those social media organisations. 358 00:21:36.780 --> 00:21:41.840 You cannot be a commercial sporting organisation, 359 00:21:43.360 --> 00:21:46.000 federation, football club or team, 360 00:21:47.040 --> 00:21:47.980 without social media. 361 00:21:49.020 --> 00:21:51.220 And likewise, those social media organisations 362 00:21:51.220 --> 00:21:54.800 are really keen to have all the teams and all the staff players 363 00:21:54.800 --> 00:21:55.940 on their platforms, 364 00:21:56.740 --> 00:21:59.680 because that gets more likes, that gets more retweets, 365 00:21:59.760 --> 00:22:00.840 that gets more hits. 366 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:04.360 That makes their platform more relevant as well. 367 00:22:04.980 --> 00:22:05.620 So... 368 00:22:05.620 --> 00:22:05.900 So... 369 00:22:06.780 --> 00:22:11.760 I find it disappointing and quite strange, actually, 370 00:22:11.760 --> 00:22:16.260 that, you know, you don't see more black people as coaches. 371 00:22:16.520 --> 00:22:17.320 You don't see... 372 00:22:17.320 --> 00:22:19.980 You know, we've got the playing stuff down pat. 373 00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:23.660 We've got heaps of, you know, players from diverse backgrounds, 374 00:22:24.520 --> 00:22:28.160 but that seems to be sort of where it stops. 375 00:22:28.380 --> 00:22:32.260 You know, there's not many in executive positions, 376 00:22:32.580 --> 00:22:34.440 there's not many on boards, 377 00:22:34.760 --> 00:22:36.580 there's not many in the... 378 00:22:36.780 --> 00:22:38.780 the medical and high performance teams, 379 00:22:39.140 --> 00:22:42.080 there's not many in sports administration. 380 00:22:42.800 --> 00:22:45.040 So, outside of playing the game, 381 00:22:45.300 --> 00:22:48.640 there's very few people from... 382 00:22:49.380 --> 00:22:50.500 of colour, if you like, 383 00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:52.720 just like there's very few women, if I'm honest. 384 00:22:52.900 --> 00:22:56.980 So, it's the same sort of barriers. 385 00:22:58.340 --> 00:23:01.600 I'm a bit too young to know how the structures were built 386 00:23:01.600 --> 00:23:03.320 or how it got to be that way, 387 00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:06.760 but what I do find in employment... 388 00:23:06.780 --> 00:23:07.340 I think it's a very positive light, 389 00:23:07.520 --> 00:23:10.920 is the rate of change in today's society. 390 00:23:11.660 --> 00:23:15.300 You know, humans like to think of things in a linear way. 391 00:23:15.520 --> 00:23:17.220 We were here yesterday, we'll be here tomorrow, 392 00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:18.460 we'll be here the next day. 393 00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:23.460 Whereas you can actually get an exponential curve on change. 394 00:23:24.300 --> 00:23:24.860 Right? 395 00:23:25.940 --> 00:23:29.420 A couple of years ago, it was just Adam Goodes by himself. 396 00:23:30.500 --> 00:23:31.060 Right? 397 00:23:31.160 --> 00:23:34.120 Now there's a whole movement and it's... 398 00:23:34.120 --> 00:23:35.400 and it's... 399 00:23:35.400 --> 00:23:37.780 it's coming to the fore, it's coming to the fore quicker, 400 00:23:37.940 --> 00:23:39.120 it's staying relevant, 401 00:23:39.360 --> 00:23:42.580 and more and more people are turning their minds to it. 402 00:23:42.840 --> 00:23:47.160 So, the positive is, I think change will be much quicker. 403 00:23:47.540 --> 00:23:50.120 You know, if it took us hundreds of years to get where we are today, 404 00:23:50.460 --> 00:23:53.380 it might only be two or three more years to get where we need to be. 405 00:23:53.600 --> 00:23:55.600 It can actually be that... that quick. 406 00:23:57.260 --> 00:24:00.680 But I was always interested in... into the why. 407 00:24:01.060 --> 00:24:04.740 You know, what can we do and why is it 408 00:24:04.740 --> 00:24:11.640 that there isn't more people of colour outside of playing whatever game it might be. 409 00:24:11.980 --> 00:24:13.380 And... and it's... 410 00:24:13.380 --> 00:24:17.260 I'm not one to support parachuting someone on a board, 411 00:24:17.540 --> 00:24:19.880 because that doesn't really make a difference either. 412 00:24:20.180 --> 00:24:22.680 They really need to be entrenched in everything. 413 00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:24.380 They need to be the players. 414 00:24:24.620 --> 00:24:25.860 They need to be the doctors. 415 00:24:26.080 --> 00:24:27.200 They need to be the physios. 416 00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:29.500 They need to be the general managers. 417 00:24:29.780 --> 00:24:31.700 They need to be the commercial managers, the CEOs. 418 00:24:32.460 --> 00:24:33.780 Once you start to... 419 00:24:34.740 --> 00:24:38.560 get in and amongst the ecosystem completely, 420 00:24:39.220 --> 00:24:42.940 then I think racism really starts to die back, 421 00:24:43.140 --> 00:24:46.080 because at every touchpoint, 422 00:24:47.460 --> 00:24:50.920 any gremlins that might be creeping out are getting shut down. 423 00:24:51.420 --> 00:24:54.020 Whereas at the moment, you know, 424 00:24:54.120 --> 00:24:57.760 star player gets abused, people get up in arms. 425 00:24:58.600 --> 00:24:59.140 Right? 426 00:24:59.740 --> 00:25:01.580 But that could be happening in an office 427 00:25:01.580 --> 00:25:04.720 and no-one's really saying too much about it. 428 00:25:04.740 --> 00:25:08.660 So, you know, if...if we were entrenched 429 00:25:08.660 --> 00:25:12.200 in and amongst the ecosystem of social media, 430 00:25:12.360 --> 00:25:14.040 the sporting teams and the like, 431 00:25:14.120 --> 00:25:15.220 it'd really change. 432 00:25:15.460 --> 00:25:19.660 And, you know, a good example is what Channel 7 tweeted after the game, 433 00:25:19.780 --> 00:25:21.460 if anyone saw that, about, you know, 434 00:25:21.460 --> 00:25:22.980 three black players fail. 435 00:25:24.020 --> 00:25:28.220 Like, that is someone in an organisation with no idea. 436 00:25:28.680 --> 00:25:34.220 I cannot believe that they were tweeting on the 7 News Twitter, 437 00:25:34.220 --> 00:25:36.520 uh, handle, thinking, 438 00:25:36.700 --> 00:25:38.460 I'm going to tweet a racist comment. 439 00:25:39.460 --> 00:25:43.160 They...I'd like to believe they had no idea what they were tweeting. 440 00:25:43.900 --> 00:25:45.600 But they actually thought that was OK. 441 00:25:45.900 --> 00:25:46.140 That's the problem. 442 00:25:46.140 --> 00:25:47.040 And that's the problem. 443 00:25:48.320 --> 00:25:49.580 Yeah, it sure is. 444 00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:52.020 It was...it was...just took your breath away. 445 00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:55.560 Now, Paulie, you saw that tweet and you shared it as well, Paulie. 446 00:25:55.700 --> 00:25:58.180 I called you Paul before, nearly fell off my chair. 447 00:25:58.720 --> 00:25:59.160 Um... 448 00:26:01.180 --> 00:26:04.140 Your...it was hideous to see that that could happen here. 449 00:26:04.140 --> 00:26:07.180 And we say over and over again the year that we were in, 2021. 450 00:26:07.740 --> 00:26:09.680 You know, how could this be happening in 21? 451 00:26:09.820 --> 00:26:11.120 But it continues to happen. 452 00:26:11.360 --> 00:26:14.320 And I'm really thrilled that you're at AFL House 453 00:26:14.320 --> 00:26:15.620 in the role that you're doing. 454 00:26:16.040 --> 00:26:19.360 Tell me about the role you're doing and the changes you hope to implement. 455 00:26:20.360 --> 00:26:23.360 Yeah, it's probably just back to the...my earlier point. 456 00:26:23.600 --> 00:26:26.280 I think, um...and to what Bruce is saying, 457 00:26:26.440 --> 00:26:30.140 um, is how do we create a better pathway? 458 00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:33.440 We're not...when we talk about adding diversity 459 00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:35.500 or people of colour into the industry, it's not... 460 00:26:35.500 --> 00:26:37.500 We don't want 20, 25, 30. 461 00:26:38.020 --> 00:26:40.800 Let's just have people coming into those different roles, 462 00:26:41.040 --> 00:26:42.200 whether it's from the ground up. 463 00:26:42.940 --> 00:26:45.600 Um, Tanya being on the senior exec, OK, that's one. 464 00:26:45.700 --> 00:26:47.420 Can we have two? Right? 465 00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:50.160 Um, head of...head of a program, 466 00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:52.780 head of diversity or head of something, 467 00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:55.740 can we have, you know, someone of diverse background 468 00:26:55.740 --> 00:26:56.880 sitting in those roles? 469 00:26:57.320 --> 00:27:00.700 Um, when we're talking about players getting drafted into the...into teams, 470 00:27:01.240 --> 00:27:03.420 it's not like we want to take over the whole team. 471 00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:06.260 You know, we just want to create pathways 472 00:27:06.260 --> 00:27:09.620 that actually just allows our young kids and young people, 473 00:27:09.720 --> 00:27:11.540 one, to believe that they can get drafted, 474 00:27:11.660 --> 00:27:13.880 because we know we've got the talent, right? 475 00:27:13.940 --> 00:27:16.080 But there's still the stereotype, there's still the stigma 476 00:27:16.080 --> 00:27:18.500 that's attached to a lot of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. 477 00:27:19.060 --> 00:27:21.860 Um, whether our backgrounds are different to yours 478 00:27:21.860 --> 00:27:24.380 or whether our backgrounds are different to the recruiters 479 00:27:24.380 --> 00:27:26.120 plays a big important part. 480 00:27:26.420 --> 00:27:28.240 Whether our kids live with our grandparents 481 00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:31.340 is kind of a big issue for recruiters and clubs for some reason, 482 00:27:31.420 --> 00:27:33.260 that a lot of our kids live with... 483 00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:34.900 their grandparents, which is really common 484 00:27:34.900 --> 00:27:36.380 for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. 485 00:27:36.680 --> 00:27:38.920 So how do we start to ed...you know, and I... 486 00:27:38.920 --> 00:27:40.820 I don't always like to use the word educate, 487 00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:44.000 um, but how do you influence the recruiters, 488 00:27:44.040 --> 00:27:46.720 the GMs of football, the CEOs, the boards, 489 00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:49.960 about the things that we do a little bit different, 490 00:27:50.100 --> 00:27:53.180 the way that we live that is a little bit different, right? 491 00:27:53.600 --> 00:27:56.100 And I always talk about clubs using our culture 492 00:27:56.980 --> 00:27:59.320 to create a bond, right? 493 00:27:59.860 --> 00:28:02.580 How do...how do we open ourselves up as well 494 00:28:02.580 --> 00:28:05.080 to create meaningful relationships and a bond 495 00:28:05.080 --> 00:28:07.900 by using our culture to help with that? 496 00:28:08.500 --> 00:28:11.040 Because at the end of the day, our culture is your culture. 497 00:28:11.820 --> 00:28:14.860 And I always feel like in Australia, often growing up, 498 00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:16.960 I didn't feel like Australia is proud of our culture. 499 00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:19.100 So how do we change that mindset? 500 00:28:19.760 --> 00:28:21.960 It's about you guys coming on a journey with us. 501 00:28:22.020 --> 00:28:23.760 It's about you guys coming out onto country, 502 00:28:24.200 --> 00:28:25.640 coming out to remote communities, 503 00:28:26.080 --> 00:28:29.120 seeing the challenges that some of our people face, right? 504 00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:31.940 Or the lack of access to services, right? 505 00:28:31.940 --> 00:28:33.200 So how do we have an impact there? 506 00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:34.700 But how do we bring that back? 507 00:28:34.740 --> 00:28:36.060 And back to Gavin's point earlier, 508 00:28:37.180 --> 00:28:38.380 we can't do this alone. 509 00:28:39.580 --> 00:28:41.080 There's only 3% of us. 510 00:28:41.800 --> 00:28:42.760 So we need you. 511 00:28:43.180 --> 00:28:45.420 We need our non-Aboriginal people, 512 00:28:45.580 --> 00:28:47.340 our non-Aboriginal brothers and sisters 513 00:28:47.740 --> 00:28:49.120 to help fight this fight. 514 00:28:49.720 --> 00:28:51.420 That's what we always talk about. 515 00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:54.540 And if you even take it to a South Australian point of view, 516 00:28:55.080 --> 00:28:56.840 there's only 42,000 of us here. 517 00:28:57.980 --> 00:29:00.300 So visually, if you picture that, I always picture it as, 518 00:29:00.380 --> 00:29:01.620 well, we couldn't even fill Adelaide Oval. 519 00:29:02.800 --> 00:29:03.380 We couldn't even fill the South Australian point of view. 520 00:29:03.380 --> 00:29:04.960 So how are we still in this position 521 00:29:04.960 --> 00:29:07.380 where there's a gap that exists, 522 00:29:07.520 --> 00:29:09.100 whether it's through education or health 523 00:29:09.940 --> 00:29:12.440 or access to services or being drafted? 524 00:29:13.120 --> 00:29:15.640 We've got a big body of work that we've been doing 525 00:29:15.640 --> 00:29:18.880 that's identified that from an Aboriginal kid 526 00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:20.680 being drafted into the AFL, 527 00:29:21.500 --> 00:29:25.160 there's a 350-hour gap of personal development 528 00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:28.160 compared to a non-Aboriginal kid that gets drafted. 529 00:29:28.980 --> 00:29:31.200 So there are kids that are getting drafted today, 530 00:29:31.320 --> 00:29:31.920 and they're not getting drafted. 531 00:29:31.940 --> 00:29:32.540 So the gap is remarkable. 532 00:29:33.540 --> 00:29:36.140 Without any support, any personal development, 533 00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:39.260 any guidance, any mentoring, living in poverty, 534 00:29:39.740 --> 00:29:41.840 living in a house that probably has 12 people, 535 00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:43.260 that's the average occupancy rate 536 00:29:43.260 --> 00:29:45.700 for Aboriginal households in Australia, 12. 537 00:29:46.380 --> 00:29:48.280 So thinking about the strain that that will cause, 538 00:29:48.340 --> 00:29:49.840 and these young people are still getting drafted. 539 00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:52.880 We still make up 10% of the AFL. 540 00:29:52.920 --> 00:29:55.100 We make up 6% in the AFLW space. 541 00:29:55.580 --> 00:29:57.660 So we over-index in that space. 542 00:29:58.360 --> 00:30:01.120 Just imagine if we were able to solve some of the issues 543 00:30:01.120 --> 00:30:04.020 around services or reducing overcrowding 544 00:30:04.020 --> 00:30:07.320 or having better access to education and schooling. 545 00:30:08.940 --> 00:30:12.180 And then on top of that, Cheryl, 546 00:30:12.320 --> 00:30:16.420 is if you don't get drafted, how do we get you to university? 547 00:30:17.060 --> 00:30:19.040 How do we get you to tertiary education? 548 00:30:20.340 --> 00:30:22.520 Because we know if we can get Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander 549 00:30:22.520 --> 00:30:24.520 young people into university and getting a degree, 550 00:30:25.580 --> 00:30:26.940 then there is no gap. 551 00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:29.700 But the bottom line for me is, 552 00:30:29.700 --> 00:30:33.660 how can you help us and help fight the fight? 553 00:30:34.120 --> 00:30:35.880 That's what it comes down to for me. 554 00:30:37.540 --> 00:30:39.800 I hope people today that are listening 555 00:30:39.800 --> 00:30:41.320 hear what you're all saying 556 00:30:41.320 --> 00:30:44.040 and actually can think about the role that they can play in that. 557 00:30:44.600 --> 00:30:47.700 I've been in the space of AFL media for 20 years 558 00:30:47.700 --> 00:30:49.700 and I've seen, you know, the drafts. 559 00:30:50.220 --> 00:30:52.000 Every year we have the drafts, Paulie. 560 00:30:52.460 --> 00:30:55.200 Are you going to be making a difference 561 00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:58.320 into what the colour of that draft might look like? 562 00:30:58.460 --> 00:30:59.680 It still feels like... 563 00:30:59.700 --> 00:31:02.160 There is a huge reluctance 564 00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:04.920 and a fear to take kids from remote communities 565 00:31:04.920 --> 00:31:06.620 and they use it as an excuse. 566 00:31:06.760 --> 00:31:08.360 This is how I personally feel. 567 00:31:09.080 --> 00:31:11.480 What... In your space that you're working in, 568 00:31:11.500 --> 00:31:13.820 is that something you're working on as well, in the pathway? 569 00:31:14.620 --> 00:31:15.320 You... Yeah. 570 00:31:16.340 --> 00:31:17.480 I'd better be careful here. 571 00:31:18.280 --> 00:31:19.380 We're only... You're going to be careful? 572 00:31:19.480 --> 00:31:21.840 Well, Tanya and I just had this conversation about... 573 00:31:21.840 --> 00:31:24.580 A young Aboriginal kid last week told us 574 00:31:24.580 --> 00:31:26.320 he didn't get drafted from Northern Territories, 575 00:31:26.320 --> 00:31:27.380 from a remote community. 576 00:31:28.980 --> 00:31:29.680 And he's saying, you know, 577 00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:31.920 he's got some examples from five clubs, 578 00:31:32.100 --> 00:31:33.600 recruiters and GMs of football, 579 00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:35.900 on the question they asked him at the combine, 580 00:31:36.140 --> 00:31:37.580 which is the draft, where you... 581 00:31:37.580 --> 00:31:39.440 The clubs interview you. 582 00:31:40.260 --> 00:31:43.000 And if I told you the question they asked this young man, 583 00:31:43.160 --> 00:31:44.400 you would fall off your seat. 584 00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:46.800 And this is the... This is... 585 00:31:46.800 --> 00:31:48.260 This is what we're trying to change, 586 00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:50.420 is the attitude of, 587 00:31:50.500 --> 00:31:52.680 is he a high-risk person 588 00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:55.400 because he comes from regional remote communities? 589 00:31:56.040 --> 00:31:56.520 Right? 590 00:31:56.580 --> 00:31:58.560 Is he high-risk just because he's Aboriginal 591 00:31:58.560 --> 00:32:00.260 and he has those challenges that I talked about? 592 00:32:00.780 --> 00:32:04.780 So, I have already spent two sessions with the recruiters. 593 00:32:06.100 --> 00:32:06.580 Right. 594 00:32:06.860 --> 00:32:07.680 They still need more. 595 00:32:08.760 --> 00:32:11.540 And then that brings into our diversity program. 596 00:32:11.760 --> 00:32:14.080 So, we've got a range of diverse programs 597 00:32:14.080 --> 00:32:16.220 for multicultural and Indigenous young people. 598 00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:18.980 So, how do we elevate that, though? 599 00:32:19.020 --> 00:32:20.420 How do we elevate those young people? 600 00:32:20.520 --> 00:32:23.160 Because a lot of those kids are slipping through the gaps 601 00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:25.580 after those diversity championships and the programs, 602 00:32:25.800 --> 00:32:27.780 and they're not going into their state teams 603 00:32:27.780 --> 00:32:28.820 and they're not getting drafted. 604 00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:30.500 And we know the talent that they bring, 605 00:32:30.620 --> 00:32:35.320 but the influence that we have to do at the moment is pretty big. 606 00:32:35.420 --> 00:32:37.980 And we're going to have to spend a lot more time in that space. 607 00:32:39.400 --> 00:32:42.280 It is, and I'm very grateful for the work that you're actually doing 608 00:32:42.280 --> 00:32:44.280 because, like you said, there's kids up there 609 00:32:44.280 --> 00:32:46.200 that are being told they're going to be drafted 610 00:32:46.200 --> 00:32:48.240 and it comes to draft and it doesn't happen. 611 00:32:48.280 --> 00:32:49.200 Their name's not called. 612 00:32:49.340 --> 00:32:51.480 So, it's heartbreaking for these kids. 613 00:32:52.420 --> 00:32:55.760 Now, Gav, I believe your son, unfortunately, 614 00:32:55.780 --> 00:32:57.620 has faced some racism. 615 00:32:57.780 --> 00:32:59.320 He's been a victim of racism in his school's sporting career. 616 00:32:59.620 --> 00:33:01.320 Can you tell us about his experience 617 00:33:01.320 --> 00:33:05.000 and did the systems in place support him to get through this? 618 00:33:06.360 --> 00:33:11.080 Yeah, so, when I mentioned earlier about, you know, 619 00:33:11.140 --> 00:33:14.140 we're making progress two steps forward, one step back, 620 00:33:14.220 --> 00:33:18.660 well, here's a bit of example that is quite fresh 621 00:33:18.660 --> 00:33:20.280 in my own family with my own son. 622 00:33:20.440 --> 00:33:25.180 So, only, was it two years ago, two and a half years ago, 623 00:33:25.300 --> 00:33:26.380 my son Tex, 624 00:33:26.380 --> 00:33:29.440 he's almost 18 now, so he was in Year 10, 625 00:33:29.580 --> 00:33:35.060 and he was playing footy on the hallowed St Peter's football oval 626 00:33:35.060 --> 00:33:40.060 against St Peter's in Year 10 in their grand final 627 00:33:40.060 --> 00:33:41.340 against St Peter's. 628 00:33:41.460 --> 00:33:45.620 He was at PAC at the time and he made a tackle, 629 00:33:46.360 --> 00:33:48.100 a nice, strong, hard tackle, 630 00:33:48.180 --> 00:33:51.200 and the guy who he tackled got up and called him a filthy abo. 631 00:33:53.580 --> 00:33:56.260 You know, so, and I thought, well, 632 00:33:56.260 --> 00:33:57.480 wow, gee, really? 633 00:33:58.920 --> 00:34:02.700 And then automatically I start thinking back to my mum's hardships 634 00:34:03.260 --> 00:34:06.140 in growing up and my grandfather and my great-grandfather 635 00:34:06.140 --> 00:34:08.940 and how they had to have a, you know, like a note 636 00:34:09.480 --> 00:34:12.280 to say that they could leave their home and go to the shop 637 00:34:12.280 --> 00:34:13.980 or go to the pub or work. 638 00:34:14.120 --> 00:34:17.140 And then, you know, like almost 100 years, you know, 639 00:34:17.160 --> 00:34:19.280 80, 90, 100 years later, 640 00:34:20.040 --> 00:34:25.740 my son is being called, you know, being discriminated, racially abused, 641 00:34:25.740 --> 00:34:27.080 and I was just, like, dumbfounded. 642 00:34:27.180 --> 00:34:30.780 So I think that just stares us all in the face to say, 643 00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:33.360 well, yep, there's still work to be done and it's still happening 644 00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:35.520 and is it coming, you know, from their parents? 645 00:34:35.700 --> 00:34:36.920 I hope it's a minority. 646 00:34:37.240 --> 00:34:39.080 Hopefully it's a rare thing. 647 00:34:40.080 --> 00:34:42.200 That was the only comment on the day. 648 00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:45.640 But the great thing that I saw was from his own teammates 649 00:34:45.640 --> 00:34:48.380 who supported him, his non-Indigenous teammates, 650 00:34:48.560 --> 00:34:50.020 who he loves and they love him, 651 00:34:50.140 --> 00:34:53.400 that they went into a bat to, you know, 652 00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:55.720 confront the opposition and the umpires 653 00:34:55.740 --> 00:34:57.740 and, you know, all these things. 654 00:34:58.720 --> 00:35:01.400 But the other comment that sort of confused me 655 00:35:01.400 --> 00:35:03.800 or concerned me was from the umpire 656 00:35:03.800 --> 00:35:06.820 and he made the comment back to some of the players 657 00:35:06.820 --> 00:35:10.500 who were complaining or trying to say, hey, he was racially abused. 658 00:35:10.720 --> 00:35:13.620 He said, well, you're all calling each other names, 659 00:35:13.700 --> 00:35:14.980 so just stop it. 660 00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:19.000 It's like, wow, you know, that's coming from, you know, 661 00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:20.740 the umpire who's got the power of the game. 662 00:35:20.840 --> 00:35:23.600 So anyway, so we... 663 00:35:23.600 --> 00:35:25.720 My wife, Pippa, she was helping me out 664 00:35:25.740 --> 00:35:28.660 and she instigates a bit of a call to the principals 665 00:35:28.660 --> 00:35:31.520 and to, you know, the most powerful schools in South Australia 666 00:35:32.540 --> 00:35:35.740 to discuss what happened and what are they going to do about it 667 00:35:35.740 --> 00:35:38.400 and going forward that they need to put a process in place 668 00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:42.680 that every single person, you know, from the umpire to the coach 669 00:35:42.680 --> 00:35:46.120 to whoever, they need to understand this process. 670 00:35:46.180 --> 00:35:49.560 And if it does happen again, the process is in place, 671 00:35:49.600 --> 00:35:52.920 is, oh, well, this person is ejected for the rest of the game, 672 00:35:52.960 --> 00:35:55.420 he's off, no questions asked, deal with it later. 673 00:35:56.260 --> 00:35:57.660 You know, the... 674 00:35:58.760 --> 00:36:01.960 And lucky enough, and to their credit, 675 00:36:02.080 --> 00:36:05.460 the schools got together and asked the young lad from Saints 676 00:36:05.460 --> 00:36:10.840 to make his way over to PAC to speak to Tex 677 00:36:10.840 --> 00:36:12.880 and apologise to him in person, 678 00:36:12.980 --> 00:36:14.760 which I think was a really good thing 679 00:36:14.760 --> 00:36:17.640 and an educational thing for the young lad who made the mistake. 680 00:36:18.120 --> 00:36:21.420 So hopefully that's something that he will use 681 00:36:22.100 --> 00:36:24.680 to better himself in that aspect. 682 00:36:25.960 --> 00:36:30.360 And hopefully he can, you know, make a difference going forward. 683 00:36:30.440 --> 00:36:33.300 But, yeah, so that's just a little story I thought I'd share, 684 00:36:33.380 --> 00:36:36.120 which I think will probably, yeah, raise your eyebrows. 685 00:36:37.600 --> 00:36:38.400 Mm, yes. 686 00:36:38.720 --> 00:36:41.720 So how did Tex feel when he got that apology? 687 00:36:42.240 --> 00:36:42.720 Yeah, but... 688 00:36:42.720 --> 00:36:44.000 What was in him? 689 00:36:44.220 --> 00:36:44.760 That's the other thing. 690 00:36:44.840 --> 00:36:47.760 So I think we... 691 00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:51.220 I'm lucky, Tex is lucky that he has the support of myself. 692 00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:55.400 You know, people in a strong family where he's strong in his identity, 693 00:36:55.420 --> 00:36:59.920 and he's fortunate enough to go to a school 694 00:36:59.920 --> 00:37:04.040 where he's being educated and he's doing really well. 695 00:37:04.120 --> 00:37:05.540 But on the flip side, 696 00:37:05.620 --> 00:37:10.580 if it actually happened to a more vulnerable Indigenous community lad 697 00:37:10.580 --> 00:37:11.860 who's come down from the community, 698 00:37:12.040 --> 00:37:15.720 who doesn't have those support mechanisms in place, 699 00:37:15.800 --> 00:37:18.300 we could be looking at something more serious here 700 00:37:18.300 --> 00:37:20.500 in terms of impact and consequences, 701 00:37:20.720 --> 00:37:22.600 which Tanya, you know, mentioned earlier. 702 00:37:22.640 --> 00:37:24.880 It could lead to depression, suicide. 703 00:37:25.680 --> 00:37:28.180 You know, a lot of suicides in Aboriginal families. 704 00:37:28.260 --> 00:37:29.260 I've seen it myself firsthand. 705 00:37:30.120 --> 00:37:31.960 I've witnessed three suicides as a kid. 706 00:37:33.580 --> 00:37:36.660 So it's just, yeah, lucky that, you know, 707 00:37:36.680 --> 00:37:39.700 we had a good yarn with Tex to see how he was feeling. 708 00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:43.020 And obviously deep down he was upset, and he still would be, 709 00:37:43.080 --> 00:37:45.920 but we're just lucky that he's got our support. 710 00:37:48.200 --> 00:37:49.340 Yeah, he is lucky. 711 00:37:49.620 --> 00:37:51.760 Lucky to have your love and support, that's for sure. 712 00:37:51.940 --> 00:37:55.400 I recently had someone reach out to me after 20 minutes 713 00:37:55.400 --> 00:37:55.480 and they said, 714 00:37:55.480 --> 00:37:55.920 you know, I've been in this business for 25 years 715 00:37:55.920 --> 00:38:00.660 of being quite disgustingly racist to me as a young woman. 716 00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:03.500 So I'm giving my age away now, Paulie. 717 00:38:03.600 --> 00:38:06.280 So racist towards me. 718 00:38:06.600 --> 00:38:09.360 But they reached out to me on socials and apologised. 719 00:38:09.620 --> 00:38:11.820 And there was real power in that apology 720 00:38:11.820 --> 00:38:13.220 because it was really sincere. 721 00:38:13.580 --> 00:38:16.200 And they spoke about how the Black Lives Matter movement 722 00:38:16.200 --> 00:38:20.500 had really, really raised an awareness within them 723 00:38:20.500 --> 00:38:22.720 and the difference that it had made to them as a person. 724 00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:25.380 So, you know, it's never too late to apologise. 725 00:38:25.400 --> 00:38:27.840 It's never too late to be a part of that healing process 726 00:38:28.400 --> 00:38:31.220 as long as there's, of course, sincerity through it. 727 00:38:32.020 --> 00:38:35.100 Tanya, you recently know that a lot of people have been... 728 00:38:35.100 --> 00:38:36.240 You touched on it also, 729 00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:40.100 that there's a lot of racism in community and second-tier football. 730 00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:42.960 And recently, I have no idea why, 731 00:38:43.060 --> 00:38:44.540 but there's been a lot of reports to myself 732 00:38:44.540 --> 00:38:46.920 about this racism that's been going on 733 00:38:46.920 --> 00:38:50.700 and a lot of people questioning the systems that are in place. 734 00:38:50.940 --> 00:38:54.320 And I know when you released the racial vilification rule 35, 735 00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:57.360 which is now the peak rule after that beautiful man, 736 00:38:58.020 --> 00:39:00.980 and you said that you were going to review the current systems 737 00:39:00.980 --> 00:39:03.440 when someone is racially vilified 738 00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:07.040 and also have an ambassador program and an education program. 739 00:39:07.420 --> 00:39:10.020 I'm just wondering where the AFL is at with that 740 00:39:10.020 --> 00:39:12.580 and what we can expect all of that to look like. 741 00:39:13.960 --> 00:39:18.000 Yeah, Shelley, so, when we did the review, 742 00:39:18.100 --> 00:39:21.220 led by Dr Sean Gorman in our team, 743 00:39:23.200 --> 00:39:31.620 we did, of course, uncover numerous stories of racial abuse in particular, 744 00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:35.400 but not only racial abuse, community football level. 745 00:39:36.560 --> 00:39:42.240 And community football is a completely different environment 746 00:39:42.240 --> 00:39:43.500 to the elite game. 747 00:39:43.800 --> 00:39:45.420 It's run by volunteers, 748 00:39:45.740 --> 00:39:49.040 people who feel really passionately about their club. 749 00:39:49.160 --> 00:39:51.200 It's often held through the same family, 750 00:39:51.220 --> 00:39:53.060 generation after generation, 751 00:39:53.400 --> 00:39:59.180 and people put a lot of time and love in at that level. 752 00:39:59.340 --> 00:40:01.940 But that doesn't necessarily mean that they're equipped 753 00:40:01.940 --> 00:40:04.240 to deal with these sorts of incidents. 754 00:40:04.660 --> 00:40:06.780 And historically in footy, 755 00:40:06.920 --> 00:40:10.480 particularly after Michael Long 756 00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:14.460 really shone a light on the incident 757 00:40:14.460 --> 00:40:16.740 between himself and Damien Monkhurst, 758 00:40:17.520 --> 00:40:20.720 the emphasis was around mediation. 759 00:40:20.720 --> 00:40:25.220 And what we've come to realise through the review work 760 00:40:25.220 --> 00:40:27.040 is that mediation often doesn't work 761 00:40:27.040 --> 00:40:29.760 and people have lost faith in that approach, 762 00:40:29.980 --> 00:40:31.360 and so they don't report, 763 00:40:31.580 --> 00:40:33.340 because they're not confident. 764 00:40:33.460 --> 00:40:37.840 And often the interactions and the relationships that will exist 765 00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:40.600 in a sporting club environment 766 00:40:41.600 --> 00:40:46.760 does involve all sorts of sort of deep historical bonds 767 00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:50.380 that become quite difficult to navigate. 768 00:40:50.380 --> 00:40:53.060 When you have to challenge each other about behaviour. 769 00:40:53.460 --> 00:40:55.440 And I think more often than not, 770 00:40:55.460 --> 00:40:57.300 people just want the problem to go away 771 00:40:57.300 --> 00:40:59.260 so they don't have to deal with it 772 00:40:59.260 --> 00:41:03.660 and risk the fallout from holding people to account. 773 00:41:04.140 --> 00:41:09.200 So we're in the process of developing an implementation plan. 774 00:41:09.560 --> 00:41:12.120 There are numerous, numerous recommendations 775 00:41:12.120 --> 00:41:16.140 across six different pillars in relation to that review. 776 00:41:16.500 --> 00:41:19.020 So what we do know is that we've got to make sure, 777 00:41:19.100 --> 00:41:20.120 and this is one of the things 778 00:41:20.120 --> 00:41:22.360 I have really learnt from working with people 779 00:41:23.120 --> 00:41:24.420 since I've been at the AFL, 780 00:41:24.460 --> 00:41:25.680 is that you've got to... 781 00:41:25.680 --> 00:41:28.720 If you're going to build the right sort of infrastructure 782 00:41:28.720 --> 00:41:30.740 from a policy perspective, 783 00:41:31.020 --> 00:41:34.140 from a social interaction perspective, 784 00:41:34.780 --> 00:41:37.680 you've got to make sure that you're building it on a strong foundation. 785 00:41:38.180 --> 00:41:41.520 So you have to make sure that you do things in the right order. 786 00:41:42.680 --> 00:41:46.060 For us, I'm still so incredibly grateful 787 00:41:46.060 --> 00:41:49.280 that in 2019 we were confronted 788 00:41:49.280 --> 00:41:50.560 with the final quarter 789 00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:53.040 and the Australian Dream documentaries 790 00:41:53.040 --> 00:41:55.900 that really made us have to look back 791 00:41:55.900 --> 00:41:57.680 at what Adam Goodes survived. 792 00:41:59.360 --> 00:42:04.080 Because I'm not sure how successful we could have been 793 00:42:04.080 --> 00:42:10.040 in developing appropriate frameworks and responses 794 00:42:10.040 --> 00:42:12.560 to all forms of vilification in our code 795 00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:15.380 until we'd apologised to Adam Goodes. 796 00:42:15.900 --> 00:42:18.600 And so even though that apology came late, 797 00:42:18.600 --> 00:42:20.160 it was still really important. 798 00:42:20.500 --> 00:42:23.680 And there's now a lot more infrastructure around 799 00:42:23.680 --> 00:42:25.540 through both of those films, 800 00:42:25.680 --> 00:42:27.320 community education guides, 801 00:42:27.660 --> 00:42:31.940 where those clubs can really start using those resources 802 00:42:31.940 --> 00:42:33.520 to help themselves get better. 803 00:42:33.700 --> 00:42:35.680 So the rollout of that, Shelley, 804 00:42:36.500 --> 00:42:38.460 is still being worked through. 805 00:42:38.540 --> 00:42:40.820 Obviously, COVID has not helped 806 00:42:41.660 --> 00:42:44.760 our scaling up of the response. 807 00:42:45.820 --> 00:42:47.800 But what I am pleased... 808 00:42:47.800 --> 00:42:48.580 And I was talking to Bruce, 809 00:42:48.600 --> 00:42:49.920 Bruce, about it before we started. 810 00:42:50.220 --> 00:42:53.900 Just as you've experienced an increase of reporting to you, 811 00:42:54.020 --> 00:42:55.960 so have I, so have other colleagues, 812 00:42:56.060 --> 00:42:56.940 and I know Paulie has. 813 00:42:57.280 --> 00:42:59.540 And I see that as a very positive sign 814 00:42:59.540 --> 00:43:02.060 because what that tells me is that people want us 815 00:43:02.060 --> 00:43:04.400 to put more attention into this 816 00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:08.000 and they're prepared to trust us to try and help resolve it. 817 00:43:08.300 --> 00:43:10.020 So, you know, quite often, 818 00:43:10.620 --> 00:43:13.540 when you review a policy and the complaints go up, 819 00:43:13.560 --> 00:43:17.280 people think, oh, see, I told you it was shit out there 820 00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:18.740 and it was all hopeless. 821 00:43:18.980 --> 00:43:23.160 But actually, more reporting is a very positive sign 822 00:43:23.160 --> 00:43:27.820 because if we like to think it's not out there as much as we think, 823 00:43:27.920 --> 00:43:28.620 we're kidding ourselves. 824 00:43:29.560 --> 00:43:32.220 There are so many different forms of vilification. 825 00:43:32.920 --> 00:43:36.620 I mean, just think what it's like for Indigenous women playing AFLW. 826 00:43:37.420 --> 00:43:39.900 You know, they've got the sexism to deal with 827 00:43:39.900 --> 00:43:41.500 and the racism to deal with. 828 00:43:41.760 --> 00:43:44.940 For people who are same-sex attracted in sport, 829 00:43:45.200 --> 00:43:46.280 there is an intersection 830 00:43:46.500 --> 00:43:51.900 of vilification now that is becoming more and more rampant. 831 00:43:52.020 --> 00:43:57.500 And I do agree that we do need the codes to work more collaboratively. 832 00:43:58.200 --> 00:44:01.080 I certainly have strong working relationships 833 00:44:01.080 --> 00:44:04.360 with my counterparts in tennis, cricket, 834 00:44:05.440 --> 00:44:08.960 Football Federation of Australia and NRL, 835 00:44:09.140 --> 00:44:11.580 and we meet on a regular basis 836 00:44:11.580 --> 00:44:14.040 to discuss what is going on in our codes. 837 00:44:14.220 --> 00:44:15.740 And sometimes we're saying, 838 00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:16.480 I'm glad that one's not there. 839 00:44:16.500 --> 00:44:17.820 I'm glad that one's with you, brother, and not with me. 840 00:44:19.340 --> 00:44:22.020 But the other thing I would say is that 841 00:44:22.020 --> 00:44:27.480 I am absolutely convinced that we need more people of colour 842 00:44:27.480 --> 00:44:31.540 and Indigenous people in decision-making at board levels. 843 00:44:31.680 --> 00:44:33.780 And I would parachute them into the board. 844 00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:37.980 As long as they've got the credentials to hold their own at the governance table, 845 00:44:38.120 --> 00:44:39.840 and there's plenty of people that do now, 846 00:44:40.940 --> 00:44:42.360 that makes all the difference. 847 00:44:42.540 --> 00:44:43.260 Because I tell you what, 848 00:44:43.320 --> 00:44:44.960 sporting clubs have got their hands out 849 00:44:44.960 --> 00:44:48.940 for Indigenous funding to run this program and that program. 850 00:44:49.060 --> 00:44:51.360 And in Reconciliation Week, go yay, Aborigine. 851 00:44:51.620 --> 00:44:53.720 And then the rest of the year, 852 00:44:53.820 --> 00:44:57.800 they're turning away from some of the most challenging issues 853 00:44:57.800 --> 00:45:00.040 that we have systemically in place. 854 00:45:00.340 --> 00:45:02.560 But rest assured, Shirley, 855 00:45:02.720 --> 00:45:05.500 our resolve on this issue is incredibly strong. 856 00:45:05.680 --> 00:45:07.860 But we do have to build the right infrastructure 857 00:45:07.860 --> 00:45:10.580 because it can't just be a moment. 858 00:45:10.660 --> 00:45:11.940 We need to build a movement. 859 00:45:13.860 --> 00:45:14.720 Absolutely agree. 860 00:45:14.720 --> 00:45:16.560 The infrastructure has to be strong. 861 00:45:16.700 --> 00:45:18.160 And there's lots of kids waiting there. 862 00:45:18.300 --> 00:45:20.760 So I look forward to your work and your hard work 863 00:45:20.760 --> 00:45:24.800 and getting those systems in place so they are better protected. 864 00:45:24.900 --> 00:45:27.020 Because you're right, mediation just isn't working. 865 00:45:27.260 --> 00:45:28.020 Kids aren't reporting. 866 00:45:28.380 --> 00:45:32.520 And there are so many issues that are happening in that situation. 867 00:45:33.020 --> 00:45:35.140 But Taryn, I'm interested to hear from you 868 00:45:35.720 --> 00:45:39.280 about what you think needs to be changed in the systems 869 00:45:39.280 --> 00:45:44.180 and what needs to happen to protect us from racism in sport 870 00:45:44.180 --> 00:45:46.000 and to deliver long-term change. 871 00:45:49.640 --> 00:45:55.440 I feel a little bit shocked by Gavin's story. 872 00:45:55.640 --> 00:46:00.040 Not that I'm like, oh, my God, I can't believe it happened to a 17-year-old. 873 00:46:00.080 --> 00:46:01.700 Like, I didn't know that that occurred. 874 00:46:01.880 --> 00:46:05.000 But I think I'm shocked because it happened to your son, Gavin. 875 00:46:06.920 --> 00:46:14.160 And I think it's that what I find incredibly jarring is that, 876 00:46:14.160 --> 00:46:17.360 we're still having the conversation, you know, 877 00:46:17.380 --> 00:46:18.820 that an umpire is saying, 878 00:46:19.080 --> 00:46:23.800 well, everyone's talking rubbish to each other on the field. 879 00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:28.400 And what's the difference between saying you're a filthy black, you know, 880 00:46:28.400 --> 00:46:32.140 avo compared to you can't kick a footy? 881 00:46:32.160 --> 00:46:34.260 Like, they're not the same. 882 00:46:34.900 --> 00:46:42.280 And, you know, because clearly that man has not been educated 883 00:46:42.280 --> 00:46:43.160 about our... 884 00:46:44.160 --> 00:46:46.320 ..our parents and our grandparents 885 00:46:46.320 --> 00:46:48.840 and what it was like to be given a ticket, 886 00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:51.340 to be given freedoms 887 00:46:51.340 --> 00:46:57.040 and to not have lived, you know, a civilised life in this country. 888 00:46:59.240 --> 00:47:02.840 And the accountability for this behaviour 889 00:47:02.840 --> 00:47:07.520 and the education around all of the... 890 00:47:07.520 --> 00:47:08.040 It's just... 891 00:47:08.040 --> 00:47:10.200 They're the systems and the structures. 892 00:47:10.380 --> 00:47:13.780 Like, we've had anti-discrimination laws since 1970. 893 00:47:14.620 --> 00:47:17.200 People are clearly not using them. 894 00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:20.300 And you're saying, Shelley, that they're not effective. 895 00:47:20.680 --> 00:47:22.100 I actually agree with you. 896 00:47:22.420 --> 00:47:27.640 Um, so we need law reform, you know, 897 00:47:27.640 --> 00:47:32.840 and obviously...and more muscle in other... 898 00:47:32.840 --> 00:47:36.200 ..in emerging areas like online, 899 00:47:36.520 --> 00:47:43.580 um, and power of the people to do...to do that. 900 00:47:43.720 --> 00:47:44.140 But... 901 00:47:45.780 --> 00:47:46.800 ..and education. 902 00:47:47.820 --> 00:47:51.680 And I feel like I'm just saying the same stuff that we always say. 903 00:47:52.980 --> 00:47:53.500 Um... 904 00:47:54.160 --> 00:47:57.460 Like, when is the education system going to get serious 905 00:47:58.160 --> 00:48:01.200 about teaching our kids and the new generation? 906 00:48:01.220 --> 00:48:04.640 I don't know...I don't know if there's much hope for that fella 907 00:48:05.580 --> 00:48:07.940 who's, you know, umpiring. 908 00:48:08.940 --> 00:48:10.940 Um, but, you know... 909 00:48:12.340 --> 00:48:14.140 ..there is hope for all of the kids. 910 00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:15.760 Um... 911 00:48:17.260 --> 00:48:19.640 And I think... 912 00:48:19.640 --> 00:48:22.760 And I don't want to, um... 913 00:48:22.760 --> 00:48:26.820 You know, I feel hopeful about the work. 914 00:48:27.100 --> 00:48:33.100 You know, structural change needs to occur in the systems where... 915 00:48:33.100 --> 00:48:37.800 ..and the organisations like Collingwood at the AFL, 916 00:48:37.840 --> 00:48:40.980 you know, education, law, blah. 917 00:48:41.240 --> 00:48:44.120 Um, you know, and I think that starts... 918 00:48:44.120 --> 00:48:46.920 ..that starts with identifying the places where the problems are, 919 00:48:47.040 --> 00:48:47.940 like Collingwood. 920 00:48:48.120 --> 00:48:50.900 They've kind of said, OK, we get it. 921 00:48:51.020 --> 00:48:54.320 We've got this long history of all of these incidences 922 00:48:55.120 --> 00:48:58.120 where people have experienced racism. 923 00:48:58.360 --> 00:49:03.440 They kind of put their hand up and said, OK, here's the line in the sand. 924 00:49:04.340 --> 00:49:10.960 Did an independent review by really credible, um, academics in the space. 925 00:49:11.300 --> 00:49:13.440 Um, and kind of stood back 926 00:49:13.440 --> 00:49:18.460 and received those recommendations, have accepted them, 927 00:49:18.620 --> 00:49:23.920 and now have invested in undertaking that reform. 928 00:49:24.200 --> 00:49:26.920 And I think that's where we need to get to 929 00:49:26.920 --> 00:49:33.820 alongside the kind of social movement that is happening 930 00:49:33.820 --> 00:49:37.040 that's creating this social change 931 00:49:37.040 --> 00:49:41.120 that will lead to the responsibility and accountability that follows. 932 00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:46.720 Karen, your work at the club at Collingwood, 933 00:49:46.880 --> 00:49:49.160 what changes have you seen at the club since? 934 00:49:50.020 --> 00:49:52.820 And the anti-racism advisory group... 935 00:49:52.820 --> 00:49:55.940 ..or since that anti-racism advisory group was established? 936 00:49:56.100 --> 00:49:57.840 And I know, Tanya, you're working on that as well. 937 00:49:58.180 --> 00:50:01.000 Do you think the efforts are filtering into other clubs? 938 00:50:02.300 --> 00:50:04.900 Sorry, that it'll go into other clubs? 939 00:50:05.700 --> 00:50:07.600 So, do you think... Have you seen... 940 00:50:07.600 --> 00:50:09.580 What changes have you seen at Collingwood? 941 00:50:09.760 --> 00:50:11.440 And have you seen those changes... 942 00:50:11.440 --> 00:50:15.600 Have you seen other clubs react to what's happening at Collingwood? 943 00:50:15.700 --> 00:50:17.120 And have you seen those changes there? 944 00:50:17.380 --> 00:50:18.880 Yeah, I can't really, um... 945 00:50:18.880 --> 00:50:20.940 I can't really speak for the other clubs 946 00:50:20.940 --> 00:50:24.380 because I don't...I don't have any visibility... 947 00:50:24.380 --> 00:50:26.020 Oh, OK. ..into those. 948 00:50:26.160 --> 00:50:28.140 But I can definitely speak for Colling... 949 00:50:28.140 --> 00:50:30.200 ..for Collingwood, I guess, and the changes. 950 00:50:30.460 --> 00:50:34.400 And I think, yes, but it's going to take time and it's slow. 951 00:50:34.940 --> 00:50:38.140 Um, I think the fact that, you know, 952 00:50:38.140 --> 00:50:40.280 not only did Collingwood say, 953 00:50:40.280 --> 00:50:43.880 yes, I've got a problem and, yes, we need to fix it, 954 00:50:43.960 --> 00:50:47.280 and, you know, it's not like IBAC, 955 00:50:47.880 --> 00:50:51.360 which is the integrity commission in Victoria... 956 00:50:51.360 --> 00:50:52.920 Sorry, in Adelaide. 957 00:50:53.040 --> 00:50:55.180 Um, where they... 958 00:50:57.440 --> 00:50:59.900 ..police commission where they, um, 959 00:51:00.520 --> 00:51:02.540 deal with their own police complaints. 960 00:51:02.980 --> 00:51:08.180 Um, I think what's amazing about the expert group into, um... 961 00:51:09.580 --> 00:51:10.260 ..racism and... 962 00:51:10.280 --> 00:51:11.680 ..at Collingwood is that they say, 963 00:51:11.780 --> 00:51:13.980 well, we don't have the expertise and the knowledge 964 00:51:13.980 --> 00:51:17.140 to deal with, um, this reform agenda, 965 00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:19.180 so we're going to bring in those experts. 966 00:51:19.520 --> 00:51:21.900 And they work directly to the board. 967 00:51:22.180 --> 00:51:25.840 Um, and where they're... 968 00:51:26.880 --> 00:51:27.840 ..we've taken... 969 00:51:28.400 --> 00:51:33.380 ..undertaken, you know, values, work to kind of... 970 00:51:33.900 --> 00:51:35.200 ..with the organisation. 971 00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:37.420 So, you know, talking about the change, Shelley, 972 00:51:38.280 --> 00:51:39.700 um, reviewed the policies, 973 00:51:39.700 --> 00:51:43.740 to make it clear so that when someone does experience racism 974 00:51:43.740 --> 00:51:46.260 and there is a... 975 00:51:46.260 --> 00:51:50.140 ..there's a multitude of avenues that you can... 976 00:51:50.140 --> 00:51:52.200 ..you know, when you're playing footy, 977 00:51:52.200 --> 00:51:53.880 if you're at the club, 978 00:51:53.960 --> 00:51:56.640 if you're attending the football, 979 00:51:56.840 --> 00:51:59.280 if you are online, it's not... 980 00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:01.120 ..it's actually... 981 00:52:01.120 --> 00:52:04.140 ..you can just get exhausted trying to work out what to do 982 00:52:04.140 --> 00:52:06.820 when you're experiencing... 983 00:52:06.820 --> 00:52:08.280 They don't make... It's not easy. 984 00:52:08.280 --> 00:52:11.840 So, you know, trying to make... 985 00:52:11.840 --> 00:52:14.460 ..be proactive about that accountability piece 986 00:52:14.460 --> 00:52:17.320 and what to do and not, um... 987 00:52:17.320 --> 00:52:20.660 ..which, you know, Collingwood has been criticised for, 988 00:52:20.860 --> 00:52:24.500 um, being proactive about that. 989 00:52:24.620 --> 00:52:26.140 So there's some of the changes. 990 00:52:26.320 --> 00:52:31.280 And they really do have an army of, you know, 991 00:52:31.280 --> 00:52:36.960 of willing, um, people who are committed to change. 992 00:52:37.060 --> 00:52:38.260 And, you know, I've definitely... 993 00:52:38.280 --> 00:52:40.480 ..I've definitely seen that in the playing group, 994 00:52:40.660 --> 00:52:41.920 you know, that... 995 00:52:41.920 --> 00:52:44.760 ..who just...I honestly believe 996 00:52:45.280 --> 00:52:50.160 that they would just never, um, play on the grass again 997 00:52:50.160 --> 00:52:53.440 if an Adam Goodes incident happened. 998 00:52:55.820 --> 00:52:56.980 Yeah. I think we would... 999 00:52:56.980 --> 00:52:58.800 And I'm not making that up. That's what they've said. 1000 00:52:59.840 --> 00:53:03.180 Yeah, that's true. I've heard that from many players, that they're... 1001 00:53:03.180 --> 00:53:06.120 And I think the problem with what happened with Adam Goodes, 1002 00:53:06.140 --> 00:53:07.140 but I'll...I'll...um... 1003 00:53:08.280 --> 00:53:10.060 ..I think the players didn't actually know what was happening at the time. 1004 00:53:10.280 --> 00:53:11.940 Because, you know, when you're in the AFL, 1005 00:53:11.940 --> 00:53:15.320 you aren't just sent the whole game and you don't watch every single game. 1006 00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:18.960 They sent very small snippets of play of what's happening. 1007 00:53:19.040 --> 00:53:20.180 So there was a lot that was missed 1008 00:53:20.180 --> 00:53:22.580 within the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander players. 1009 00:53:22.700 --> 00:53:25.180 They didn't understand to the level until afterwards 1010 00:53:25.180 --> 00:53:28.500 when they were sitting at an Indigenous camp together. 1011 00:53:28.820 --> 00:53:30.780 And, Paulie, you know about that moment, don't you, 1012 00:53:30.820 --> 00:53:31.580 when they actually... 1013 00:53:31.580 --> 00:53:34.760 ..that moment of realisation about what happened to Adam Goodes. 1014 00:53:34.800 --> 00:53:36.660 You were there when the players were talking. Is that right? 1015 00:53:37.160 --> 00:53:39.620 Yeah, Tanya and I were there. That was... 1016 00:53:39.620 --> 00:53:40.700 You both were there, yeah. 1017 00:53:40.840 --> 00:53:42.900 Yeah, it was pretty emotional for everyone, 1018 00:53:42.980 --> 00:53:45.680 particularly Adam's brother, Brett, who was sitting there. 1019 00:53:46.220 --> 00:53:48.780 He was just sobbing the whole doco. 1020 00:53:48.860 --> 00:53:52.560 And then, you know, people like Shawnee Burgon and Eddie Betts, 1021 00:53:52.560 --> 00:53:54.660 sort of the older ones, they were... 1022 00:53:55.240 --> 00:53:56.820 ..just tears were just flowing. 1023 00:53:56.980 --> 00:54:00.200 It was just...it was incredibly sad and emotional for everyone. 1024 00:54:00.260 --> 00:54:02.660 And I think everyone was sad for Adam, 1025 00:54:02.700 --> 00:54:06.020 but I think at that point it was the line in the sand 1026 00:54:06.020 --> 00:54:07.480 for all the Indigenous players, 1027 00:54:07.600 --> 00:54:09.060 particularly just to say, enough's enough. 1028 00:54:10.900 --> 00:54:14.140 And there was a sense of, man, we did nothing for him. 1029 00:54:14.800 --> 00:54:19.480 So not only did non-Aboriginal people sort of didn't do anything, 1030 00:54:19.540 --> 00:54:22.320 we, as Aboriginal people, didn't do anything for Adam, 1031 00:54:22.360 --> 00:54:23.740 and that was the biggest take for us. 1032 00:54:26.400 --> 00:54:28.340 And whether...being at an AFL club, 1033 00:54:29.400 --> 00:54:32.140 often when we got abuse from our players, 1034 00:54:32.180 --> 00:54:34.760 the media manager sort of goes into, 1035 00:54:34.860 --> 00:54:35.900 well, let's just not say anything. 1036 00:54:36.020 --> 00:54:37.580 Because if you say something, you're going to draw attention. 1037 00:54:38.700 --> 00:54:40.820 But that moment was like, no, 1038 00:54:41.600 --> 00:54:44.300 we're just going to call it out and call it out and call it out, 1039 00:54:44.840 --> 00:54:47.600 and we're just going to be a big support for each other. 1040 00:54:48.980 --> 00:54:50.040 And that's how they've... 1041 00:54:50.620 --> 00:54:53.360 ..that's how they've sort of behaved in the last four or five years, 1042 00:54:53.480 --> 00:54:56.220 is the 11% of the league just get together 1043 00:54:56.220 --> 00:54:58.580 and they just...one cop's it, 1044 00:54:58.660 --> 00:55:00.980 they all jump on and just call it all out. 1045 00:55:01.060 --> 00:55:03.460 And that's...I feel like that's been pretty effective. 1046 00:55:04.740 --> 00:55:06.000 I think a part of being... 1047 00:55:06.020 --> 00:55:09.260 ..the shameful part and the hurtful part of, you know, 1048 00:55:09.260 --> 00:55:14.280 that moment was that Adam was alone, right? 1049 00:55:15.100 --> 00:55:17.600 And that's the learning and the journey as well, 1050 00:55:17.720 --> 00:55:19.180 that, you know, we... 1051 00:55:20.060 --> 00:55:21.500 ..for that not to happen... 1052 00:55:22.020 --> 00:55:23.080 ..for that not to happen again. 1053 00:55:24.280 --> 00:55:24.720 Mm. 1054 00:55:25.020 --> 00:55:27.800 So, Tanya, the situation with Collingwood last year, 1055 00:55:27.900 --> 00:55:30.220 following on from Adam Goodes, 1056 00:55:30.220 --> 00:55:32.900 sort of raises the question about how far we've come, 1057 00:55:32.980 --> 00:55:34.840 but also I want to know from you, 1058 00:55:34.840 --> 00:55:37.140 what have we learnt from Adam Goodes? 1059 00:55:41.240 --> 00:55:41.760 Um... 1060 00:55:43.320 --> 00:55:47.120 When you say we, do you mean the AFL or...? 1061 00:55:47.120 --> 00:55:48.180 Oh, the AFL. Yeah. 1062 00:55:48.260 --> 00:55:49.900 I'm not the AFL, but thanks. 1063 00:55:50.100 --> 00:55:52.800 No, we as in the people...the AFL learnt... 1064 00:55:52.800 --> 00:55:55.940 And also what has society learnt from Adam Goodes? 1065 00:55:56.160 --> 00:55:57.100 Yeah. OK. 1066 00:55:58.340 --> 00:55:59.880 Yeah, that's a very good question. 1067 00:55:59.980 --> 00:56:04.820 I think, you know, certainly it was quite a revolutionary moment 1068 00:56:04.840 --> 00:56:07.100 and it was a revolutionary process we went through in 2019 1069 00:56:07.100 --> 00:56:08.980 when the films came out, 1070 00:56:09.080 --> 00:56:12.680 because my team and I, we were... 1071 00:56:12.680 --> 00:56:14.840 ..we were the ones tasked with making sure 1072 00:56:14.840 --> 00:56:17.520 that every single playing group watched the documentaries, 1073 00:56:19.060 --> 00:56:22.880 every coach, umpires, 1074 00:56:23.020 --> 00:56:26.480 all the club CEOs, all the club presidents, the AFL Commission, 1075 00:56:26.780 --> 00:56:30.040 and we took a facilitated process. 1076 00:56:30.140 --> 00:56:33.500 So we didn't just, you know, send everyone a link and say, 1077 00:56:33.500 --> 00:56:36.400 watch this, we facilitated those meetings 1078 00:56:36.400 --> 00:56:39.240 and had those discussions and debriefs with players. 1079 00:56:40.680 --> 00:56:43.840 Now, the interesting thing is, like, seriously, 1080 00:56:44.080 --> 00:56:46.880 you have no idea how hard it is 1081 00:56:46.880 --> 00:56:48.900 to get the time of a playing group in footy. 1082 00:56:49.260 --> 00:56:51.080 Like, it is next to impossible. 1083 00:56:51.540 --> 00:56:53.600 Now, for those of you who work in clubs, 1084 00:56:53.660 --> 00:56:55.560 like Taryn is and Paulie has, 1085 00:56:55.720 --> 00:56:59.960 and, you know, Gavin, I guess, is a former player on a club board, 1086 00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:02.960 you know, it may not seem like that for you, 1087 00:57:02.960 --> 00:57:05.880 but when the AFL comes knocking, like, the clubs don't like us, right, 1088 00:57:05.980 --> 00:57:09.520 because we're the regulator, so we're not the ones with the fans. 1089 00:57:09.900 --> 00:57:11.120 Let's be really clear. 1090 00:57:11.440 --> 00:57:15.320 Um, so it's not always easy. 1091 00:57:15.420 --> 00:57:18.180 But what was great was there was a real willingness. 1092 00:57:19.000 --> 00:57:21.600 And it was interesting, because I arrived in 2016, 1093 00:57:22.320 --> 00:57:24.480 it was really hard to get anyone to talk to me 1094 00:57:24.480 --> 00:57:26.820 about what had happened with the Adam situation. 1095 00:57:26.940 --> 00:57:29.640 It was really hard to get anyone to say, well, what... 1096 00:57:29.640 --> 00:57:31.720 You know, because I wanted to know what was going on in here. 1097 00:57:31.720 --> 00:57:33.440 Like, what were you doing? 1098 00:57:33.700 --> 00:57:36.140 Like, who was in charge? 1099 00:57:36.340 --> 00:57:38.720 Like, who was leading the conversations? 1100 00:57:38.880 --> 00:57:40.700 You know, the... 1101 00:57:40.700 --> 00:57:43.220 Yeah, I was, you know, tumbleweed, nothing. 1102 00:57:43.500 --> 00:57:48.080 So when the documentaries came out, you had to look at it. 1103 00:57:48.120 --> 00:57:48.720 You couldn't look away. 1104 00:57:49.160 --> 00:57:52.380 And they were just such amazing documentation 1105 00:57:52.380 --> 00:57:55.320 of what had happened in chronological order, 1106 00:57:55.440 --> 00:57:57.500 particularly with the final quarter. 1107 00:57:58.660 --> 00:58:00.960 And all of a sudden, you realised, 1108 00:58:00.960 --> 00:58:03.100 and the players could see, as Paulie was saying, 1109 00:58:03.960 --> 00:58:06.700 he was booed at for 17 weeks in a row. 1110 00:58:07.460 --> 00:58:10.200 Imagine being in the middle of a huge oval 1111 00:58:10.200 --> 00:58:15.040 with anywhere from between 50 and 100,000 people 1112 00:58:15.040 --> 00:58:18.140 looking at you when you're being booed at 1113 00:58:18.140 --> 00:58:20.040 by tens of thousands of people. 1114 00:58:20.600 --> 00:58:22.160 Can you imagine that? 1115 00:58:22.400 --> 00:58:25.220 And if you can't, imagine how you would feel as a parent 1116 00:58:25.220 --> 00:58:26.500 if that happened to your child. 1117 00:58:28.000 --> 00:58:30.460 And when you started to think about it like that, 1118 00:58:30.460 --> 00:58:33.600 then all of a sudden, you know, 1119 00:58:33.660 --> 00:58:38.360 I was in rooms with the people who broadcast our game 1120 00:58:38.360 --> 00:58:40.620 when we made them sit down and watch it together, 1121 00:58:41.300 --> 00:58:45.600 and I saw pennies dropping and a new realisation, 1122 00:58:45.760 --> 00:58:47.320 because I think... 1123 00:58:47.920 --> 00:58:50.580 And this is one of the things that I think's been so great 1124 00:58:50.580 --> 00:58:54.600 out of, I think, one of the key learnings, Shelley, 1125 00:58:54.800 --> 00:58:57.160 which has been reinforced by the work 1126 00:58:57.160 --> 00:58:59.500 that's come out of the Do Better report at Collingwood. 1127 00:59:00.540 --> 00:59:02.900 In an age of perpetual outrage, 1128 00:59:03.540 --> 00:59:05.720 where a single incident of racism, 1129 00:59:06.020 --> 00:59:07.680 we'll get up in arms about it, 1130 00:59:07.780 --> 00:59:11.100 and we'll tweet our disdain, 1131 00:59:11.160 --> 00:59:14.220 and we'll get really angry with our friends, 1132 00:59:14.460 --> 00:59:18.360 and we'll feel really good because we're morally correct. 1133 00:59:19.380 --> 00:59:22.760 But then we do nothing about the systemic racism 1134 00:59:22.760 --> 00:59:24.940 that enables that behaviour in the first place. 1135 00:59:25.720 --> 00:59:28.460 And I think that is what has been learnt, 1136 00:59:28.620 --> 00:59:30.440 that the system, 1137 00:59:30.440 --> 00:59:34.260 the system enabled the failure of Adam Goodes 1138 00:59:34.260 --> 00:59:37.300 as much as the individuals who could have done something. 1139 00:59:37.700 --> 00:59:42.900 The system enabled it to continue for 17 weeks in a row. 1140 00:59:43.540 --> 00:59:45.760 And what the Collingwood report has shown 1141 00:59:46.440 --> 00:59:49.760 is that it's the systemic issues 1142 00:59:49.760 --> 00:59:52.940 that enable the behaviour in the first place. 1143 00:59:53.220 --> 00:59:56.400 And that is where I really feel quite compelled 1144 00:59:56.400 --> 00:59:57.800 that we need to concentrate. 1145 00:59:57.940 --> 00:59:59.720 And they're the conversations. 1146 01:00:00.440 --> 01:00:03.380 Like, be outraged about Eddie Maguire if you want to. 1147 01:00:03.840 --> 01:00:05.400 You know, for me, it's just like, 1148 01:00:05.500 --> 01:00:07.400 Eddie is Eddie's issue. 1149 01:00:08.780 --> 01:00:10.860 Like, he's just one person. 1150 01:00:11.140 --> 01:00:12.600 Sure, he had a lot of power 1151 01:00:12.600 --> 01:00:15.400 and all of those sorts of things, 1152 01:00:16.040 --> 01:00:17.100 but I tell you what, 1153 01:00:17.220 --> 01:00:19.620 that's what I think racists want us to do, 1154 01:00:19.720 --> 01:00:22.600 is focus on one incident or one individual 1155 01:00:22.600 --> 01:00:25.560 and feel really good because we think we're better than them 1156 01:00:25.560 --> 01:00:27.500 because we can point out what they've done wrong. 1157 01:00:28.040 --> 01:00:30.160 But let's get serious about the system. 1158 01:00:30.440 --> 01:00:32.400 Let's get serious about accountability. 1159 01:00:33.000 --> 01:00:36.860 And let's together make sure that people know 1160 01:00:36.860 --> 01:00:39.480 that it is the basis of our expectation, 1161 01:00:39.900 --> 01:00:42.080 and not just when it's the worst incident, 1162 01:00:42.180 --> 01:00:43.340 but at every incident. 1163 01:00:45.800 --> 01:00:47.920 Totally. That leads me to my question. 1164 01:00:48.180 --> 01:00:50.560 Oh, yes, give her a clap. Absolutely. I agree. 1165 01:00:51.100 --> 01:00:54.200 Now, Bruce, this leads me to my next question to you. 1166 01:00:54.300 --> 01:00:56.440 People often think racism is loud and abusive, 1167 01:00:56.580 --> 01:00:59.480 like what we've just heard about with Adam, 1168 01:00:59.480 --> 01:01:02.540 but it can be that quite subtle and systemic racism 1169 01:01:02.540 --> 01:01:03.920 that Tanya's talking about. 1170 01:01:04.300 --> 01:01:07.840 With your current work at Adelaide Leadership in mind, 1171 01:01:08.480 --> 01:01:10.980 what can people in positions of leadership do 1172 01:01:10.980 --> 01:01:14.840 to implement real change in the fight against racism in sport 1173 01:01:15.480 --> 01:01:17.680 and racism in society, full stop? 1174 01:01:20.160 --> 01:01:22.880 I think you've got to walk the talk at the end of the day. 1175 01:01:23.040 --> 01:01:28.300 I mean, it's very easy to talk and to say all the right things 1176 01:01:28.300 --> 01:01:29.340 and to have the vision. 1177 01:01:29.480 --> 01:01:29.760 It's very easy to have the vision statements 1178 01:01:29.760 --> 01:01:31.760 and to have the mission statements 1179 01:01:31.760 --> 01:01:39.200 and, you know, to play in an Aboriginal-designed Guernsey once a year 1180 01:01:39.200 --> 01:01:43.100 and all that tokenistic, all those platitudes. 1181 01:01:43.180 --> 01:01:48.060 Like, I mean, organisations do it to feel good about themselves. 1182 01:01:48.600 --> 01:01:50.540 Leaders do it to feel good about themselves. 1183 01:01:51.120 --> 01:01:54.440 Organisations do it to try and attract the best talent 1184 01:01:54.440 --> 01:01:57.780 because socially that's the right thing to do. 1185 01:01:57.780 --> 01:02:02.080 But, you know, it's like a house full of termites. 1186 01:02:02.260 --> 01:02:03.620 It could look great from the outside 1187 01:02:03.620 --> 01:02:06.440 and then you try to go up these wooden steps 1188 01:02:06.440 --> 01:02:08.500 and there's stepping holes in it 1189 01:02:08.500 --> 01:02:12.600 because there's actually no substance to what's being said. 1190 01:02:13.660 --> 01:02:17.000 So I think you need to call things out. 1191 01:02:17.100 --> 01:02:19.580 Like, I didn't know Adam Goodes was 17 weeks. 1192 01:02:20.040 --> 01:02:21.620 That's just astounded me. 1193 01:02:21.680 --> 01:02:22.700 I remember when it was happening. 1194 01:02:24.240 --> 01:02:26.460 And I remember at the start even thinking, like, 1195 01:02:26.500 --> 01:02:27.620 yeah, well, people boo. 1196 01:02:27.780 --> 01:02:28.480 Cristiano Ronaldo. 1197 01:02:28.760 --> 01:02:29.880 And it's just a bit of a thing. 1198 01:02:30.140 --> 01:02:32.560 But it didn't take that long. 1199 01:02:32.660 --> 01:02:33.740 Not 17 weeks. 1200 01:02:33.880 --> 01:02:35.160 You know, maybe a couple of weeks. 1201 01:02:35.240 --> 01:02:36.840 And you're like, hold on a second. 1202 01:02:37.700 --> 01:02:42.460 It had nothing to do between the Swans and West Coast Eagles 1203 01:02:42.460 --> 01:02:43.980 and this guy in Perth. 1204 01:02:43.980 --> 01:02:46.240 And everyone's booing him now. 1205 01:02:46.600 --> 01:02:47.220 You know? 1206 01:02:47.300 --> 01:02:49.340 So those organisations... 1207 01:02:49.340 --> 01:02:52.900 And I remember being seriously frustrated at the time 1208 01:02:52.900 --> 01:02:56.060 because those organisations... 1209 01:02:56.060 --> 01:02:57.600 Like, there are powerful people there. 1210 01:02:57.780 --> 01:02:58.300 There are. 1211 01:02:58.580 --> 01:03:02.460 And they could have shut it down within a 30-minute meeting. 1212 01:03:02.680 --> 01:03:03.880 Guys, this is what we're going to do. 1213 01:03:03.940 --> 01:03:05.160 This is how we're going to shut it down. 1214 01:03:05.420 --> 01:03:07.200 And let's just go shut it down 1215 01:03:07.200 --> 01:03:09.260 because we run the media in this country. 1216 01:03:09.400 --> 01:03:10.320 It's pretty simple. 1217 01:03:10.900 --> 01:03:11.960 But they didn't do it. 1218 01:03:12.060 --> 01:03:14.440 For all the mission statements and vision statements 1219 01:03:14.440 --> 01:03:20.080 and all the Aboriginal currencies that they have designed for them. 1220 01:03:20.240 --> 01:03:24.160 And, you know, that stuff really frustrates me. 1221 01:03:24.260 --> 01:03:25.960 And I think if you want to be a leader, 1222 01:03:26.040 --> 01:03:27.760 then you have to be able to say, 1223 01:03:27.780 --> 01:03:28.400 you have to be able to recognise 1224 01:03:30.320 --> 01:03:32.080 when there's something of substance 1225 01:03:32.780 --> 01:03:34.320 and when you're just saying it. 1226 01:03:34.380 --> 01:03:38.580 To be on trend and you have to do it 1227 01:03:38.580 --> 01:03:39.760 because everyone else is doing it, 1228 01:03:39.940 --> 01:03:42.580 but you're not really believing in what you're doing. 1229 01:03:42.980 --> 01:03:46.180 So leadership is... 1230 01:03:46.940 --> 01:03:48.120 It's a bit of a buzzword, 1231 01:03:48.260 --> 01:03:50.360 but it's a very important role. 1232 01:03:50.700 --> 01:03:52.280 And if you want to be a leader, 1233 01:03:52.400 --> 01:03:54.840 then you can't afford to follow in anything, 1234 01:03:55.600 --> 01:03:56.780 whether it be racism, 1235 01:03:56.780 --> 01:04:01.940 whether it be, you know, equal pay, 1236 01:04:02.180 --> 01:04:05.700 whether it be elevating women in your organisation, 1237 01:04:06.260 --> 01:04:09.460 whether it be supporting people with disabilities, 1238 01:04:09.840 --> 01:04:13.220 whether it be treating everyone as human beings. 1239 01:04:13.420 --> 01:04:16.540 You can't shy away from something 1240 01:04:17.740 --> 01:04:20.780 and then concentrate on something else. 1241 01:04:20.840 --> 01:04:21.760 You need to be... 1242 01:04:21.760 --> 01:04:23.720 A leader does it all, 1243 01:04:24.780 --> 01:04:26.640 else you're failing. 1244 01:04:26.780 --> 01:04:31.140 So, look, I think in leadership, 1245 01:04:31.280 --> 01:04:33.260 what would seriously help 1246 01:04:33.260 --> 01:04:36.360 is having more Indigenous people involved 1247 01:04:36.360 --> 01:04:39.800 because some of these people, 1248 01:04:39.860 --> 01:04:41.380 they're not bad people, you know. 1249 01:04:41.620 --> 01:04:45.300 They're actually not trying to harm us. 1250 01:04:45.540 --> 01:04:47.120 They're not bad people, 1251 01:04:47.240 --> 01:04:49.420 but they literally have no visibility. 1252 01:04:50.040 --> 01:04:53.580 I mean, you got stereotypes about St Peter's College, 1253 01:04:53.640 --> 01:04:54.460 for example. 1254 01:04:54.460 --> 01:04:59.500 I was shocked about that story Gavin told me. 1255 01:04:59.520 --> 01:05:00.840 I've got young kids, six and four, 1256 01:05:01.000 --> 01:05:02.040 and I'm thinking, 1257 01:05:02.160 --> 01:05:04.700 if that happened to my son, 1258 01:05:04.780 --> 01:05:06.180 I would not be very calm. 1259 01:05:07.840 --> 01:05:09.040 But, you know, 1260 01:05:10.260 --> 01:05:11.740 some of these institutions, 1261 01:05:12.280 --> 01:05:13.700 and I'm generalising now, 1262 01:05:13.880 --> 01:05:15.240 but some of these institutions, 1263 01:05:15.820 --> 01:05:18.680 you know, they are very sheltered. 1264 01:05:19.380 --> 01:05:21.520 They are super sheltered. 1265 01:05:21.520 --> 01:05:22.740 I've lived all over the world. 1266 01:05:22.740 --> 01:05:24.980 My family lives all over the world. 1267 01:05:25.100 --> 01:05:28.780 I've been able to see all different perspectives and angles 1268 01:05:28.780 --> 01:05:31.480 and live with different people and cultures and religions. 1269 01:05:32.440 --> 01:05:34.820 So I'm lucky in the sense that I can understand 1270 01:05:34.820 --> 01:05:37.120 why people arrive to the decisions 1271 01:05:37.120 --> 01:05:40.240 or to the thought processes that they have 1272 01:05:40.240 --> 01:05:42.180 because I've got that global experience. 1273 01:05:42.500 --> 01:05:44.500 But that kid from St Peter's, 1274 01:05:45.180 --> 01:05:46.140 I don't know him. 1275 01:05:46.800 --> 01:05:48.480 I don't know many people from there. 1276 01:05:48.600 --> 01:05:51.500 But it's got a... 1277 01:05:51.500 --> 01:05:52.240 It's got a... 1278 01:05:52.240 --> 01:05:54.500 It's got a reputation, that school. 1279 01:05:54.860 --> 01:05:56.100 And in every state, 1280 01:05:56.200 --> 01:05:59.340 there's those schools with those reputations. 1281 01:05:59.640 --> 01:06:01.540 And you hear a lot about them in Sydney 1282 01:06:01.540 --> 01:06:05.040 from that woman in the eastern suburbs 1283 01:06:05.040 --> 01:06:06.660 that was talking about the sexual abuse 1284 01:06:06.660 --> 01:06:08.900 and the rape that was happening in schools. 1285 01:06:09.240 --> 01:06:11.180 And, you know, you've got principals 1286 01:06:11.180 --> 01:06:13.780 and these people interviewing these kids. 1287 01:06:14.080 --> 01:06:16.640 And, you know, I was listening to the radio 1288 01:06:16.640 --> 01:06:18.520 a couple of months ago now, 1289 01:06:18.640 --> 01:06:22.080 and I was gobsmacked when, you know, 1290 01:06:22.080 --> 01:06:22.220 the school was... 1291 01:06:22.240 --> 01:06:23.240 The principal was like, 1292 01:06:23.400 --> 01:06:24.800 well, we interviewed this kid, 1293 01:06:24.880 --> 01:06:25.400 and we said, 1294 01:06:25.400 --> 01:06:27.040 why didn't you stop when the girl said to stop 1295 01:06:27.040 --> 01:06:28.400 and when she was crying? 1296 01:06:28.940 --> 01:06:30.120 Oh, yeah, girls always cry. 1297 01:06:30.240 --> 01:06:30.880 They always, yeah. 1298 01:06:31.580 --> 01:06:33.320 Because they're that sheltered, 1299 01:06:33.320 --> 01:06:35.420 some of these societies, you know. 1300 01:06:36.900 --> 01:06:37.780 And it's... 1301 01:06:37.780 --> 01:06:41.100 The system is such that a lot of people 1302 01:06:41.100 --> 01:06:43.380 from those sort of backgrounds 1303 01:06:43.380 --> 01:06:47.500 do end up in positions of significant influence. 1304 01:06:48.420 --> 01:06:49.920 And it's not that they're bad. 1305 01:06:50.480 --> 01:06:51.360 It's just that 1306 01:06:51.360 --> 01:06:54.420 they lack perspective. 1307 01:06:55.680 --> 01:06:57.200 And it's the lack of perspective 1308 01:06:57.200 --> 01:06:59.040 that leads to poor decision-making. 1309 01:06:59.220 --> 01:07:00.940 And, yes, they can have the title, 1310 01:07:00.980 --> 01:07:02.260 and, yes, they can be a leader, 1311 01:07:02.300 --> 01:07:03.800 in inverted commas. 1312 01:07:04.620 --> 01:07:07.940 But when you get a mass congregation 1313 01:07:07.940 --> 01:07:10.300 of that culture, 1314 01:07:11.900 --> 01:07:13.700 then you get Adam Goodes being booed 1315 01:07:13.700 --> 01:07:15.640 for 17 frickin' weeks. 1316 01:07:15.800 --> 01:07:17.960 It's just ridiculous, you know. 1317 01:07:18.000 --> 01:07:21.140 And I think if you want to be a leader, 1318 01:07:21.140 --> 01:07:22.800 in summation, if you want to be a leader, 1319 01:07:22.900 --> 01:07:25.540 if you want to be really, you know, 1320 01:07:25.580 --> 01:07:29.080 the person that's the CEO or the coach 1321 01:07:29.080 --> 01:07:31.920 or the football director or the recruiter 1322 01:07:31.920 --> 01:07:35.040 who's in charge of, you know, recruiting the players, 1323 01:07:36.720 --> 01:07:39.280 then you have to be able to walk the talk. 1324 01:07:39.500 --> 01:07:39.960 You have to... 1325 01:07:39.960 --> 01:07:40.980 But to be able to do that, 1326 01:07:41.020 --> 01:07:43.480 you've got to know what right and wrong is. 1327 01:07:44.480 --> 01:07:46.080 So that's where education 1328 01:07:46.580 --> 01:07:48.700 is actually the most powerful tool. 1329 01:07:49.700 --> 01:07:51.120 Because instead of just reading the book, 1330 01:07:51.140 --> 01:07:52.380 reading about the Rainbow Serpent 1331 01:07:52.380 --> 01:07:54.420 and all this sort of stuff in school, 1332 01:07:54.800 --> 01:07:57.680 actually learn about what actually happened. 1333 01:07:58.080 --> 01:07:59.320 And it's not good. 1334 01:07:59.560 --> 01:08:00.660 It's not pleasant. 1335 01:08:01.240 --> 01:08:04.000 And it's embarrassing and it's shameful and all the rest. 1336 01:08:04.140 --> 01:08:07.640 But teach the students about it. 1337 01:08:08.020 --> 01:08:10.560 Because then they grow up with a realisation of, 1338 01:08:11.420 --> 01:08:13.660 yep, I know why there's a gap. 1339 01:08:14.480 --> 01:08:15.760 Because I tell you now, 1340 01:08:16.480 --> 01:08:18.400 if Australia was full of white people 1341 01:08:18.400 --> 01:08:19.400 and black people came 1342 01:08:19.400 --> 01:08:23.400 and took the white kids away from their family, 1343 01:08:23.740 --> 01:08:25.500 there'd be a gap on that side too. 1344 01:08:25.960 --> 01:08:29.140 You know, there's some really significant trauma 1345 01:08:29.140 --> 01:08:31.780 that's happened that's created this gap. 1346 01:08:32.660 --> 01:08:34.400 And if you want to be a leader, 1347 01:08:34.460 --> 01:08:37.020 you need to have the context knowledge 1348 01:08:37.020 --> 01:08:40.000 and the understanding of what's happened in the past 1349 01:08:40.000 --> 01:08:42.480 to get the understanding of where you are today 1350 01:08:42.480 --> 01:08:45.660 and how to not let that or anything like that 1351 01:08:45.660 --> 01:08:48.700 sort of foster or fester in your organisation. 1352 01:08:50.940 --> 01:08:51.520 And I think that's the key. 1353 01:08:51.520 --> 01:08:53.200 Bruce, you've made my day with that answer. 1354 01:08:53.380 --> 01:08:54.280 Let me tell you. 1355 01:08:55.060 --> 01:08:56.460 Now, it's so true. 1356 01:08:56.600 --> 01:08:59.700 Education is absolutely the answer. 1357 01:08:59.920 --> 01:09:02.360 Taryn, what kind of education would you like to see 1358 01:09:02.360 --> 01:09:05.260 in the space of sport that would filter down 1359 01:09:05.260 --> 01:09:07.640 to the umpires we're talking about today, 1360 01:09:07.900 --> 01:09:08.780 to the players, 1361 01:09:09.000 --> 01:09:10.840 to the people who are doing the mediation? 1362 01:09:11.180 --> 01:09:13.300 What would you like to see education-wise? 1363 01:09:17.920 --> 01:09:19.580 I think that the... 1364 01:09:21.560 --> 01:09:25.520 ..education has to be led by the players. 1365 01:09:27.180 --> 01:09:27.780 Um... 1366 01:09:29.920 --> 01:09:30.520 What...what... 1367 01:09:31.860 --> 01:09:33.060 ..what they... 1368 01:09:33.060 --> 01:09:34.520 When I say led by the players, 1369 01:09:34.600 --> 01:09:37.000 obviously it's the organisation's response. 1370 01:09:37.040 --> 01:09:38.060 I'm thinking... 1371 01:09:38.060 --> 01:09:41.160 Sorry, I'm thinking from a club perspective. 1372 01:09:42.360 --> 01:09:43.280 But, you know, I think that the... 1373 01:09:43.280 --> 01:09:46.400 ..you know, it is about the history 1374 01:09:46.400 --> 01:09:48.120 and, um... 1375 01:09:48.120 --> 01:09:50.580 ..how do we... 1376 01:09:50.580 --> 01:09:53.000 Going to Bruce's point, 1377 01:09:53.200 --> 01:09:57.680 how do we teach the history to... 1378 01:09:57.680 --> 01:09:59.200 ..um... 1379 01:09:59.200 --> 01:10:02.280 ..so that to undo... 1380 01:10:02.840 --> 01:10:06.780 Not undo, but so that the historical wrongs 1381 01:10:06.780 --> 01:10:08.760 do not continue into the past 1382 01:10:09.280 --> 01:10:12.620 and that people can, um... 1383 01:10:12.620 --> 01:10:13.260 ..um... 1384 01:10:13.280 --> 01:10:16.840 ..you know, that it's our children's children 1385 01:10:16.840 --> 01:10:18.300 are not playing sport 1386 01:10:18.300 --> 01:10:21.040 and having to have these same experiences 1387 01:10:21.040 --> 01:10:22.040 because that... 1388 01:10:22.040 --> 01:10:25.360 ..if we're having to have these conversations as grannies, 1389 01:10:25.500 --> 01:10:27.800 uh, that'll be bloody terrible. 1390 01:10:28.800 --> 01:10:29.380 Um... 1391 01:10:30.780 --> 01:10:32.360 And I think it's a... 1392 01:10:35.100 --> 01:10:35.680 Yeah. 1393 01:10:35.880 --> 01:10:39.080 And I think it has to happen at...at all levels. 1394 01:10:39.140 --> 01:10:41.680 And just building on your point, Bruce, 1395 01:10:41.680 --> 01:10:42.760 I was just thinking... 1396 01:10:42.760 --> 01:10:43.260 ..um... 1397 01:10:43.280 --> 01:10:45.400 ..thinking about, um... 1398 01:10:45.400 --> 01:10:48.000 ..you know, leaders and their roles 1399 01:10:48.000 --> 01:10:51.660 and, you know, the Damien Monkhurst. 1400 01:10:51.820 --> 01:10:55.420 Like, I find his statement where... 1401 01:10:55.420 --> 01:10:57.440 ..with, um... 1402 01:10:57.440 --> 01:10:59.960 ..Michael Long and he, you know... 1403 01:10:59.960 --> 01:11:01.320 ..he... 1404 01:11:02.280 --> 01:11:02.920 ..he's... 1405 01:11:02.920 --> 01:11:06.900 Is he famously or infamously known now as... 1406 01:11:06.900 --> 01:11:12.240 You know, he's gone on this very public journey, um... 1407 01:11:12.240 --> 01:11:13.700 ..with Michael Long. 1408 01:11:13.860 --> 01:11:15.260 And he's now... 1409 01:11:15.260 --> 01:11:15.620 He's... 1410 01:11:15.620 --> 01:11:16.280 You know, he... 1411 01:11:16.280 --> 01:11:21.100 He thought speaking to Aboriginal players 1412 01:11:21.100 --> 01:11:23.080 and saying what he used to say 1413 01:11:23.080 --> 01:11:26.260 as a part of his football game was normal. 1414 01:11:26.500 --> 01:11:29.320 But now he very publicly says, 1415 01:11:29.520 --> 01:11:31.860 I just...I feel embarrassed. 1416 01:11:32.120 --> 01:11:35.100 I don't...I would never do that. 1417 01:11:35.220 --> 01:11:38.120 That is a part of the leadership and the education 1418 01:11:38.120 --> 01:11:39.880 that's really important now. 1419 01:11:39.980 --> 01:11:40.960 And it's...it's though... 1420 01:11:40.960 --> 01:11:42.160 You know, it's the... 1421 01:11:44.040 --> 01:11:45.740 ..the change and that... 1422 01:11:45.740 --> 01:11:46.140 ..the change and that... 1423 01:11:46.140 --> 01:11:49.240 Like, we need the Damien's to be... 1424 01:11:49.240 --> 01:11:51.260 You know, it's not just the legislation says, 1425 01:11:51.320 --> 01:11:52.800 this type of education. 1426 01:11:53.060 --> 01:11:56.560 But how do we bring, um... 1427 01:11:58.560 --> 01:11:59.520 ..everyone along? 1428 01:12:00.380 --> 01:12:02.080 The people who, you know, 1429 01:12:02.700 --> 01:12:06.120 who are entrenched in certain types of behaviours? 1430 01:12:06.340 --> 01:12:08.040 I think, how do we get... 1431 01:12:08.040 --> 01:12:10.220 How do we get to them and just think differently 1432 01:12:10.220 --> 01:12:12.140 about how we approach that? 1433 01:12:14.880 --> 01:12:17.520 Now, Paulie, the work that you've done in Port Adelaide 1434 01:12:17.520 --> 01:12:20.960 and the Aboriginal programs and now at AFL House, 1435 01:12:21.220 --> 01:12:23.660 you have certainly seen some positive changes. 1436 01:12:24.160 --> 01:12:26.960 Talk about the immediate and the long-term effects 1437 01:12:26.960 --> 01:12:29.060 you see in communities through the programs 1438 01:12:29.060 --> 01:12:30.280 and how they benefit everyone. 1439 01:12:31.480 --> 01:12:34.480 Yeah, I was probably just going to add to Taryn's point about, 1440 01:12:34.620 --> 01:12:38.900 um, often when we see sponsors coming, approaching us, 1441 01:12:38.960 --> 01:12:41.540 whether I was...whether I was at Port Adelaide 1442 01:12:41.540 --> 01:12:46.100 or at the AFL, a lot of the common questions is, 1443 01:12:46.260 --> 01:12:49.860 um, can you take our executives on a journey? 1444 01:12:50.460 --> 01:12:52.060 And I love that stuff. 1445 01:12:52.200 --> 01:12:55.540 I love...I think one of the best ways to educate is... 1446 01:12:55.540 --> 01:12:57.340 And Gavin and I have done this for many years, 1447 01:12:57.460 --> 01:13:01.080 is take non-Aboriginal people with us to the APY lands 1448 01:13:01.080 --> 01:13:05.140 and spend a week, um, even tasting Gavin's cooking, 1449 01:13:05.280 --> 01:13:06.320 which isn't too bad, actually. 1450 01:13:06.520 --> 01:13:07.360 You know you'll like it. 1451 01:13:09.220 --> 01:13:11.040 He's always asked me to cook on those trips. 1452 01:13:12.660 --> 01:13:13.180 Um... 1453 01:13:13.780 --> 01:13:16.040 You don't let anyone else cook, that's the problem. 1454 01:13:17.080 --> 01:13:19.940 But we've always found that incredibly powerful, 1455 01:13:20.080 --> 01:13:23.220 is taking people away for six, seven days. 1456 01:13:23.960 --> 01:13:25.740 And it doesn't necessarily need to be remote, 1457 01:13:25.860 --> 01:13:27.740 but in our case, in our experiences, 1458 01:13:27.980 --> 01:13:32.300 the remote setting stuff just seems to open up people's minds 1459 01:13:32.300 --> 01:13:34.920 and eyes to who we are as people. 1460 01:13:35.060 --> 01:13:37.240 And I think there's a big role that Aboriginal people 1461 01:13:37.240 --> 01:13:40.940 have to play as well to be open to non-Aboriginal people. 1462 01:13:40.940 --> 01:13:43.420 And I think we've been a very closed culture 1463 01:13:44.000 --> 01:13:45.620 because of the past policies 1464 01:13:45.620 --> 01:13:48.860 and because of the past behaviours towards us. 1465 01:13:49.120 --> 01:13:51.640 Um, and I do think there's a shift in mindset 1466 01:13:51.640 --> 01:13:53.760 compared to myself and my mother. 1467 01:13:54.820 --> 01:14:01.660 Um, I can 100% understand why Mum, um, can be... 1468 01:14:01.660 --> 01:14:04.680 Can I say angry? She's not here. 1469 01:14:05.120 --> 01:14:06.120 I'll say... 1470 01:14:06.940 --> 01:14:09.820 She can snap, right, really quickly. 1471 01:14:09.820 --> 01:14:11.120 And I get it. 1472 01:14:11.480 --> 01:14:14.380 I get, you know, being born at a mission 1473 01:14:15.040 --> 01:14:17.580 and those sort of challenges would be quite challenging. 1474 01:14:17.720 --> 01:14:19.600 And I can understand where Mum comes from. 1475 01:14:19.640 --> 01:14:22.760 And I think, um, the next generation has changed. 1476 01:14:22.980 --> 01:14:26.680 Um, and if I think about my children's upbringing 1477 01:14:26.680 --> 01:14:28.320 and their education, um, 1478 01:14:28.760 --> 01:14:31.880 they are doing a lot more stuff around Aboriginal culture in our schools. 1479 01:14:32.100 --> 01:14:33.780 Um, and that's the thing. 1480 01:14:33.860 --> 01:14:35.860 I think when I came through here in Adelaide High, 1481 01:14:36.040 --> 01:14:37.000 I got taught nothing. 1482 01:14:37.660 --> 01:14:39.040 You know, they didn't talk about it. 1483 01:14:39.040 --> 01:14:41.260 And there's a reluctance from our teachers 1484 01:14:41.260 --> 01:14:42.820 because they don't want to say the wrong thing. 1485 01:14:43.700 --> 01:14:48.500 But the reality is we teach all kinds of subjects, 1486 01:14:48.580 --> 01:14:49.700 biology, physics, whatever. 1487 01:14:49.920 --> 01:14:50.900 Everyone's going to get it wrong. 1488 01:14:51.220 --> 01:14:52.180 Let's just teach it. 1489 01:14:53.020 --> 01:14:55.660 And it's even more power in non-Aboriginal people 1490 01:14:55.660 --> 01:14:57.680 talking about Aboriginal people and culture. 1491 01:14:58.080 --> 01:15:02.020 And we always talk about the truth-telling part of our history. 1492 01:15:02.260 --> 01:15:05.080 Um, and so one minute we like to highlight 1493 01:15:05.080 --> 01:15:06.860 and celebrate the Anzacs and the wars. 1494 01:15:07.000 --> 01:15:09.020 And, you know, we celebrate and we have a minute of silence. 1495 01:15:09.040 --> 01:15:09.860 And the 11th of November. 1496 01:15:11.120 --> 01:15:13.420 But we don't want to talk about the frontier wars 1497 01:15:13.420 --> 01:15:16.820 or what happened over at Elliston and, you know, genocide 1498 01:15:16.820 --> 01:15:18.540 and what happened down in Tasmania. 1499 01:15:18.780 --> 01:15:20.400 You know, we don't want to do it because it's ugly 1500 01:15:20.400 --> 01:15:21.900 and it makes people uncomfortable. 1501 01:15:22.140 --> 01:15:25.820 But we always talk about the truth-telling part of our real history, 1502 01:15:25.960 --> 01:15:26.860 our Australian history. 1503 01:15:27.760 --> 01:15:29.900 Um, actually, it's going to take us forward. 1504 01:15:30.040 --> 01:15:33.740 It's actually going to let us heal as a country and move forward. 1505 01:15:33.900 --> 01:15:37.940 And Tanya mentioned the word I think we use as Aboriginal people all the time 1506 01:15:37.940 --> 01:15:39.180 is how do we do this together? 1507 01:15:40.140 --> 01:15:42.080 And we'll always talk about how do we do this. 1508 01:15:42.100 --> 01:15:43.560 We don't want to take anything away. 1509 01:15:43.700 --> 01:15:45.660 We don't want your house. We don't want your job. 1510 01:15:46.460 --> 01:15:47.900 We just want to do this country together. 1511 01:15:48.420 --> 01:15:51.720 And, um, and I think the power of that is about how do we do that. 1512 01:15:51.820 --> 01:15:54.240 And, you know, I've got John Carty sitting here down here 1513 01:15:54.240 --> 01:15:58.200 as a non-Aboriginal man working in an Indigenous space with the museum. 1514 01:15:58.320 --> 01:15:59.340 And he does fantastic work. 1515 01:15:59.480 --> 01:16:02.240 And I just love the way that, John, you go about your business 1516 01:16:02.640 --> 01:16:03.820 and how you bring us together. 1517 01:16:04.160 --> 01:16:06.840 And, um, we need more people like you, brother. 1518 01:16:06.840 --> 01:16:07.940 So thank you. 1519 01:16:09.480 --> 01:16:09.920 Beautiful. 1520 01:16:10.300 --> 01:16:13.920 Now, Gavin, one quick thing before we do go to questions. 1521 01:16:14.140 --> 01:16:16.740 What's one thing in your mind that you think people can do 1522 01:16:16.740 --> 01:16:20.800 in the audience that are listening to make a difference to end racism in sport? 1523 01:16:22.880 --> 01:16:24.920 To end racism, did you say? 1524 01:16:25.340 --> 01:16:26.700 Well, not to end... 1525 01:16:26.700 --> 01:16:29.660 To essentially... I wish we could end racism. 1526 01:16:29.860 --> 01:16:34.740 But to help and stop racism in sport so that there are systems to protect. 1527 01:16:34.860 --> 01:16:36.820 What's one thing that people in the audience can do 1528 01:16:36.840 --> 01:16:37.820 moving forward? 1529 01:16:42.100 --> 01:16:43.760 Is it other... two things? No. 1530 01:16:44.600 --> 01:16:45.600 Yeah, you can go two. 1531 01:16:45.720 --> 01:16:46.480 I think, um... 1532 01:16:46.480 --> 01:16:47.640 Just because you're on Survivor. 1533 01:16:51.960 --> 01:16:53.140 Yeah. Look out. 1534 01:16:55.460 --> 01:17:00.040 I think because we all have our own different, you know, social networks 1535 01:17:00.040 --> 01:17:02.240 and come from different parts of Adelaide 1536 01:17:02.240 --> 01:17:04.320 or different parts of South Australia or Australia, 1537 01:17:04.500 --> 01:17:05.240 I think just... 1538 01:17:06.100 --> 01:17:06.820 ..if you're in Australia, you know, 1539 01:17:06.840 --> 01:17:07.460 you're involved in... 1540 01:17:07.460 --> 01:17:10.280 I mean, somewhere along the line, 1541 01:17:10.380 --> 01:17:13.060 you're going to either be involved with a football club, 1542 01:17:13.120 --> 01:17:17.160 a netball club, softball club, basketball club, you know, soccer club, 1543 01:17:18.500 --> 01:17:19.760 some sort of... 1544 01:17:19.760 --> 01:17:22.220 A cards club, whatever club it is, 1545 01:17:22.280 --> 01:17:24.220 or whatever, you know, group it is. 1546 01:17:25.320 --> 01:17:26.680 I think always have an ear. 1547 01:17:27.000 --> 01:17:28.040 Always have an ear. 1548 01:17:28.120 --> 01:17:29.020 If you hear something, 1549 01:17:30.280 --> 01:17:33.760 just to go up and have a polite conversation with that person 1550 01:17:33.760 --> 01:17:36.820 to try and get them to understand that that was... 1551 01:17:36.820 --> 01:17:37.380 ..that was actually wrong. 1552 01:17:37.900 --> 01:17:41.460 Because I'm sure you'll come across it from time to time, you know? 1553 01:17:41.760 --> 01:17:42.980 So always have an ear 1554 01:17:42.980 --> 01:17:47.700 and don't be scared to have a meaningful conversation with that person. 1555 01:17:47.780 --> 01:17:48.760 I think that's really powerful. 1556 01:17:51.460 --> 01:17:52.960 Beautiful. I love that. 1557 01:17:53.080 --> 01:17:54.240 And that's a perfect way to end. 1558 01:17:54.580 --> 01:17:55.780 Thank you all so much. 1559 01:17:55.920 --> 01:17:57.140 We are now going to go to questions. 1560 01:17:57.260 --> 01:18:01.580 So if somebody has a question they would like to ask this amazing panel, 1561 01:18:01.700 --> 01:18:03.280 who, by the way, you've all been brilliant 1562 01:18:03.280 --> 01:18:04.980 and thank you so much for your generosity, 1563 01:18:04.980 --> 01:18:07.800 if you've got a question you'd like to ask, 1564 01:18:07.860 --> 01:18:12.360 you can make your way to the microphone at the centre, I believe, 1565 01:18:12.720 --> 01:18:14.920 at the end of the pathway, 1566 01:18:15.040 --> 01:18:16.660 and you can ask them a question. 1567 01:18:18.640 --> 01:18:20.060 Sean, you can't say anything. 1568 01:18:20.740 --> 01:18:22.080 No, don't allow that man there. 1569 01:18:22.120 --> 01:18:24.220 That fellow on the left. 1570 01:18:25.740 --> 01:18:26.820 Walking over, no. 1571 01:18:28.020 --> 01:18:28.680 Don't let him. 1572 01:18:30.600 --> 01:18:32.240 I'm in Victoria. 1573 01:18:33.640 --> 01:18:34.580 Sorry about that. 1574 01:18:35.240 --> 01:18:35.860 It's all right. 1575 01:18:36.320 --> 01:18:38.000 I was just here because I wanted to know 1576 01:18:38.000 --> 01:18:40.720 if Gavin won the competition or not. 1577 01:18:41.540 --> 01:18:41.860 Survivor. 1578 01:18:42.120 --> 01:18:44.620 So I was just coming in there to see if I could get a bit of inside intel 1579 01:18:44.620 --> 01:18:47.560 so I could head down the Lucky Shop and lay a lazy 20 on it. 1580 01:18:47.600 --> 01:18:49.640 Yeah, well, you never know your luck in the big smoke. 1581 01:18:49.700 --> 01:18:52.280 So you just have to watch it and wait and see. 1582 01:18:52.880 --> 01:18:54.080 Just joking, just joking. 1583 01:18:54.300 --> 01:18:58.940 I'm from Perth and when I first came to Adelaide, 1584 01:18:58.980 --> 01:19:00.020 it was in the height of summer. 1585 01:19:00.100 --> 01:19:02.360 It was a 45-degree day and I thought I was going to die. 1586 01:19:03.400 --> 01:19:04.960 And considering, you know, we normally get the sun, 1587 01:19:04.980 --> 01:19:07.000 we don't get the doctor in Friot, so it's always pretty good. 1588 01:19:07.120 --> 01:19:09.340 But, yeah, it was a terrible, terribly hot day. 1589 01:19:09.860 --> 01:19:11.640 So I got up very early in the morning. 1590 01:19:11.700 --> 01:19:14.180 I had a little bit of a hangover because the beer here is very good. 1591 01:19:14.300 --> 01:19:17.740 But anyway, that's another discussion for another time. 1592 01:19:18.200 --> 01:19:21.560 And I went for a big walk around the sort of parklands here 1593 01:19:21.560 --> 01:19:23.820 and you got, like, the golf course over there 1594 01:19:23.820 --> 01:19:24.940 and you got Adelaide Oval 1595 01:19:24.940 --> 01:19:26.640 and then you had the tennis thing next to it, yeah? 1596 01:19:27.040 --> 01:19:29.620 They were all green. Everything else was dead. 1597 01:19:30.680 --> 01:19:33.340 There were bastions of old whitefellas, 1598 01:19:34.440 --> 01:19:34.960 recreational athletes, 1599 01:19:34.980 --> 01:19:39.580 and sports, tennis and cricket and, you know, golf. 1600 01:19:39.880 --> 01:19:42.320 And I just thought, how does that work? 1601 01:19:42.880 --> 01:19:46.500 Everyone else is, you know, needing, you know, water. 1602 01:19:47.060 --> 01:19:49.180 Gardens are dying all over Adelaide 1603 01:19:49.180 --> 01:19:50.880 and you've got these three areas 1604 01:19:50.880 --> 01:19:53.160 which are completely green and pristine. 1605 01:19:53.900 --> 01:19:54.800 What gives? 1606 01:19:55.220 --> 01:19:58.120 So my question is, is how do you deal with the issues 1607 01:19:58.120 --> 01:19:59.880 of institutionalised matters? 1608 01:20:00.200 --> 01:20:02.860 Because they're the big... That's the big meat and potatoes. 1609 01:20:03.880 --> 01:20:04.460 Stuff. 1610 01:20:05.360 --> 01:20:06.140 I agree. 1611 01:20:06.340 --> 01:20:10.140 You know, doing the rollout, the NAIDOC and this one and that one, 1612 01:20:10.260 --> 01:20:11.200 that's wonderful, 1613 01:20:11.420 --> 01:20:14.340 but it's not actually breaking those things down. 1614 01:20:14.500 --> 01:20:17.280 So to all of you, because you're all dealing with these things 1615 01:20:17.280 --> 01:20:19.440 from an institutional point of view, 1616 01:20:19.640 --> 01:20:22.700 how do you deal with those things and keep sane? 1617 01:20:26.640 --> 01:20:27.760 Look, I think it's hard. 1618 01:20:28.460 --> 01:20:30.320 I think it's hard. I know what you're saying. 1619 01:20:32.340 --> 01:20:34.200 And, you know, I've had a... 1620 01:20:34.980 --> 01:20:37.640 ..very interesting life to date 1621 01:20:37.640 --> 01:20:42.240 where I'm not an Indigenous person, 1622 01:20:42.500 --> 01:20:44.840 but I'm obviously black, 1623 01:20:45.920 --> 01:20:47.200 which I think is great. 1624 01:20:47.520 --> 01:20:50.320 And, you know, unfortunately, 1625 01:20:51.800 --> 01:20:53.500 another part of this power construct, 1626 01:20:53.660 --> 01:20:56.580 black is always associated with really negative things. 1627 01:20:57.200 --> 01:20:58.640 I'm really conscious of that. 1628 01:20:59.580 --> 01:21:01.460 So I've got a six- and a four-year-old, 1629 01:21:01.480 --> 01:21:03.400 and when they were about three and one, 1630 01:21:03.460 --> 01:21:04.760 especially my three-year-old, 1631 01:21:04.760 --> 01:21:06.980 he was scared of the dark and all this sort of stuff. 1632 01:21:07.180 --> 01:21:08.720 And I thought, you know, let me try this one. 1633 01:21:09.840 --> 01:21:12.140 And I'm like, why are you scared of the dark? 1634 01:21:13.900 --> 01:21:15.560 Only good things happen in the dark. 1635 01:21:16.260 --> 01:21:17.860 When it's black, there's only good things. 1636 01:21:17.980 --> 01:21:19.960 When does Santa come? Nighttime. 1637 01:21:20.280 --> 01:21:22.400 When does the Easter Bunny come? Nighttime. 1638 01:21:23.060 --> 01:21:25.260 When does the tooth fairy come? Nighttime. 1639 01:21:25.880 --> 01:21:27.420 Everything good happens in the dark. 1640 01:21:27.820 --> 01:21:31.000 And all of a sudden, his favourite colour, guess what it is now? 1641 01:21:31.180 --> 01:21:31.740 It's black. 1642 01:21:33.360 --> 01:21:34.660 Because it's just the colour. 1643 01:21:34.660 --> 01:21:35.720 It's the construct of society. 1644 01:21:36.020 --> 01:21:39.560 And, you know, the conqueror always creates the history, right? 1645 01:21:39.640 --> 01:21:40.700 They always write the history. 1646 01:21:40.960 --> 01:21:42.680 Well, this is actually what happened. 1647 01:21:42.980 --> 01:21:45.000 Anzac Day, da-da-da-da-da. 1648 01:21:46.260 --> 01:21:49.780 This is the first I'm hearing about some of these genocides. 1649 01:21:49.780 --> 01:21:53.820 Mate, sitting here right now is the first I've heard of it. 1650 01:21:54.140 --> 01:21:57.100 You know, and it goes to your point. 1651 01:21:57.940 --> 01:22:00.080 There's a nice plush green golf course. 1652 01:22:00.540 --> 01:22:03.100 I can tell you, I grew up as a kid, 1653 01:22:03.100 --> 01:22:08.520 normal, middle, you know, middle sort of tier. 1654 01:22:08.620 --> 01:22:09.740 We're not wealthy, we're not poor. 1655 01:22:09.860 --> 01:22:11.720 My dad was a professor. We were fine. 1656 01:22:12.980 --> 01:22:15.240 But we lived on the North Shore in Sydney, 1657 01:22:15.760 --> 01:22:20.220 and I can tell you, I did not know another black family 1658 01:22:20.220 --> 01:22:24.700 between Milsons Point, Mossman Manly, and Hornsby. 1659 01:22:25.220 --> 01:22:26.460 The whole North Shore. 1660 01:22:26.720 --> 01:22:27.800 And I had two brothers. 1661 01:22:28.620 --> 01:22:31.900 We all went to school, and between the three of us, 1662 01:22:33.100 --> 01:22:35.480 I didn't know another black, like, not one. 1663 01:22:36.200 --> 01:22:38.120 And that's not even an exaggeration. 1664 01:22:39.300 --> 01:22:44.540 So, and then you start to see how society has been built 1665 01:22:44.540 --> 01:22:50.700 and how people of influence start to have a say and influence 1666 01:22:50.700 --> 01:22:53.980 and money gets put in certain places where... 1667 01:22:53.980 --> 01:22:56.120 And then you go to the parklands 1668 01:22:56.120 --> 01:22:57.680 and you've got all these Indigenous people. 1669 01:23:00.100 --> 01:23:01.980 I was at Baptist care two days ago. 1670 01:23:03.100 --> 01:23:04.740 Heaps of Indigenous people there. 1671 01:23:05.940 --> 01:23:07.480 Heaps. They don't have food, they don't have that. 1672 01:23:07.700 --> 01:23:10.240 You go two kilometres north, in North Adelaide, 1673 01:23:11.240 --> 01:23:15.300 you've got the complete opposite side of the world. 1674 01:23:15.480 --> 01:23:18.600 So, it is difficult to deal with. 1675 01:23:18.700 --> 01:23:20.600 I do it in a sense that... 1676 01:23:20.600 --> 01:23:25.600 I get stopped on the street frequently from people of colour. 1677 01:23:25.880 --> 01:23:28.340 They say, keep doing what you're doing, we're so proud of you. 1678 01:23:28.620 --> 01:23:30.460 You know, parents say, you know, 1679 01:23:30.520 --> 01:23:32.720 I always show my kids when you're on TV, 1680 01:23:32.720 --> 01:23:35.360 and you're on the press conference or you're doing the interview. 1681 01:23:36.100 --> 01:23:37.960 And I don't find that a burden, 1682 01:23:38.020 --> 01:23:41.460 but I really take that as a responsibility on my shoulders. 1683 01:23:42.240 --> 01:23:45.040 Everything I do, I always make sure 1684 01:23:45.820 --> 01:23:47.640 it's on the front page of the New York Times, 1685 01:23:47.800 --> 01:23:49.880 I'd still be proud of what I've done. 1686 01:23:50.100 --> 01:23:52.040 And that's how I live my life. 1687 01:23:52.120 --> 01:23:55.140 It's like a little bit of extra responsibility I take 1688 01:23:55.140 --> 01:23:57.540 because I think then that has flow-on effects. 1689 01:23:57.840 --> 01:23:59.280 For me, it was Barack Obama. 1690 01:23:59.820 --> 01:24:01.960 It was 2008, I was living in Turkey. 1691 01:24:01.960 --> 01:24:04.240 I watched his inauguration and I was like, 1692 01:24:04.320 --> 01:24:05.860 man, I remember being in high school, 1693 01:24:06.000 --> 01:24:08.300 listening to that Tupac song, Changes. 1694 01:24:10.560 --> 01:24:11.760 Like, shit's changing. 1695 01:24:13.500 --> 01:24:16.200 That for me was like earth-shattering moment. 1696 01:24:16.560 --> 01:24:19.140 I'm like, I cannot believe... I could not believe it. 1697 01:24:19.220 --> 01:24:20.660 Me and my brothers were born in the States. 1698 01:24:20.820 --> 01:24:23.780 I was like, I can just not believe it's a black president. 1699 01:24:23.920 --> 01:24:24.940 Like, this is the best thing in the world. 1700 01:24:25.540 --> 01:24:28.420 And it's that... It's that what you need 1701 01:24:29.580 --> 01:24:31.600 that will start to shine the light 1702 01:24:31.600 --> 01:24:33.880 in the dark corners and the dark spots 1703 01:24:34.520 --> 01:24:37.160 where all of a sudden you can start to make a change. 1704 01:24:37.300 --> 01:24:38.060 Because it is... 1705 01:24:38.060 --> 01:24:43.080 I go to dinners all the time with the high society these days. 1706 01:24:43.200 --> 01:24:44.920 I'm always the only black guy there. 1707 01:24:45.000 --> 01:24:45.920 I swear to God. 1708 01:24:46.820 --> 01:24:49.660 I'm always the only black person in the room. 1709 01:24:49.840 --> 01:24:50.320 Always. 1710 01:24:51.980 --> 01:24:55.460 I cannot remember the last time I was at a big gala ball 1711 01:24:55.460 --> 01:24:57.660 or a big gala dinner in Adelaide 1712 01:24:58.240 --> 01:25:00.040 and there was another black person. 1713 01:25:00.500 --> 01:25:03.400 I'm like, if you put a pen prick on the big white... 1714 01:25:03.400 --> 01:25:06.060 Sorry, on the big white cloth of a table, that's me. 1715 01:25:06.600 --> 01:25:07.120 Every day. 1716 01:25:07.380 --> 01:25:09.460 I feel comfortable in my own skin and I'm fine. 1717 01:25:10.800 --> 01:25:16.040 But it's just disappointing that society is built in a way... 1718 01:25:18.880 --> 01:25:19.740 ..where, you know... 1719 01:25:20.780 --> 01:25:22.500 It's just the way it is. So I know what you're saying. 1720 01:25:22.600 --> 01:25:25.900 But I think the only thing we can do is, you know, 1721 01:25:26.420 --> 01:25:28.680 Gavin can be a legendary footy player. 1722 01:25:29.080 --> 01:25:29.620 You know? 1723 01:25:30.220 --> 01:25:31.360 I can do what I do. 1724 01:25:31.820 --> 01:25:33.080 Tanya can do what she does. 1725 01:25:33.480 --> 01:25:38.260 You know, it's only between us being role models, really. 1726 01:25:38.420 --> 01:25:39.960 I think it's a real privilege. 1727 01:25:41.180 --> 01:25:42.800 And then you start to climb the ladder 1728 01:25:42.800 --> 01:25:44.640 and then you can start to have an influence. 1729 01:25:47.160 --> 01:25:48.680 Absolutely agree, 100%. 1730 01:25:48.680 --> 01:25:50.240 We'll go to another question now. 1731 01:25:51.000 --> 01:25:53.260 I imagine that would be the answer for many of you. 1732 01:25:53.300 --> 01:25:55.760 But we're running out of time, so I'd like to get another question. 1733 01:25:56.380 --> 01:25:57.980 Yeah, I'll try and be quick. 1734 01:25:57.980 --> 01:26:01.080 Firstly, just on behalf of everyone, 1735 01:26:01.200 --> 01:26:05.560 thanks to each of you for what you brought to that stage tonight. 1736 01:26:05.740 --> 01:26:08.080 It was really emotional for me 1737 01:26:08.080 --> 01:26:09.740 and I think probably for everyone in this room 1738 01:26:09.740 --> 01:26:11.760 and really raw and really honest. 1739 01:26:12.980 --> 01:26:16.780 I wanted to ask any of you who wishes to reflect on this. 1740 01:26:17.440 --> 01:26:20.160 We often separate out sport and culture 1741 01:26:20.160 --> 01:26:21.460 and we sort of try and say, 1742 01:26:21.520 --> 01:26:23.340 well, sport's happening here and this is Australia. 1743 01:26:23.620 --> 01:26:25.820 And that's just a lie. 1744 01:26:25.820 --> 01:26:27.960 Like, sport is just an arena 1745 01:26:27.960 --> 01:26:31.280 in which our society is made visible to us, 1746 01:26:31.340 --> 01:26:32.880 for better or for worse. 1747 01:26:34.580 --> 01:26:38.500 And we load a lot onto sport in Australia for meaning. 1748 01:26:39.900 --> 01:26:42.120 And lots of good things come from that, 1749 01:26:42.200 --> 01:26:44.440 which is what the idea of this session, in a way, 1750 01:26:44.480 --> 01:26:48.320 is teasing apart this idea of what is sport in our culture 1751 01:26:48.320 --> 01:26:50.940 and how does it reflect the racism in Australia. 1752 01:26:52.180 --> 01:26:54.760 But without putting the burden of education 1753 01:26:54.760 --> 01:26:58.760 that we should be doing in our schools and our universities 1754 01:26:59.480 --> 01:27:00.640 onto sport, 1755 01:27:00.880 --> 01:27:03.900 it seems like some of the big turning points in our society 1756 01:27:03.900 --> 01:27:07.020 have come through moments on the sporting field. 1757 01:27:07.680 --> 01:27:10.940 And we need to accept that sport has this incredible role 1758 01:27:10.940 --> 01:27:12.660 in shaping our culture. 1759 01:27:13.700 --> 01:27:16.980 And I wondered if any of you wanted to reflect 1760 01:27:16.980 --> 01:27:21.680 on how we can use the platform of sport, of football, 1761 01:27:22.800 --> 01:27:24.560 to continue to influence, 1762 01:27:24.560 --> 01:27:27.300 and shift, and improve, and change, 1763 01:27:28.680 --> 01:27:31.040 and address racism in Australia. 1764 01:27:38.240 --> 01:27:38.860 Go on. 1765 01:27:42.720 --> 01:27:45.760 Yeah, I mean, I think you're absolutely right. 1766 01:27:46.020 --> 01:27:47.780 I mean, when I was growing up, 1767 01:27:47.780 --> 01:27:49.920 I used to think Australia was a land of sport. 1768 01:27:50.500 --> 01:27:52.340 My dad watched every sport going. 1769 01:27:53.420 --> 01:27:54.540 And, you know, 1770 01:27:54.560 --> 01:27:55.920 it didn't matter what it was. 1771 01:27:56.040 --> 01:27:58.380 It was just like, what's going on today? 1772 01:27:58.600 --> 01:28:01.560 Oh, there'd be some sport that we can watch. 1773 01:28:04.540 --> 01:28:05.660 I think... 1774 01:28:06.840 --> 01:28:10.200 I think we need to embrace the fact 1775 01:28:10.200 --> 01:28:14.740 that our country is woven together 1776 01:28:14.740 --> 01:28:17.000 with a strong sporting lens. 1777 01:28:17.380 --> 01:28:18.840 No point fighting it. 1778 01:28:19.560 --> 01:28:22.000 I think we need to integrate it more 1779 01:28:22.000 --> 01:28:25.100 with other cultural activities. 1780 01:28:26.340 --> 01:28:28.720 I used to be on the board of Bangarra Dance Theatre. 1781 01:28:29.040 --> 01:28:30.760 And one of my dreams... 1782 01:28:30.760 --> 01:28:33.880 I think I might have put it in one of my performance management things 1783 01:28:33.880 --> 01:28:34.920 with Gil one year. 1784 01:28:35.320 --> 01:28:38.760 I really want us to do something with Bangarra at some point. 1785 01:28:39.720 --> 01:28:42.800 Now, you know, maybe we will, maybe we won't. 1786 01:28:42.940 --> 01:28:43.820 Probably won't. 1787 01:28:43.820 --> 01:28:45.620 But, look, it doesn't mean I won't try. 1788 01:28:46.040 --> 01:28:50.960 I think we do have to have a better understanding 1789 01:28:50.960 --> 01:28:52.540 of the vehicle that sport is, 1790 01:28:52.720 --> 01:28:56.800 so that those of us who want to leverage the platform 1791 01:28:56.800 --> 01:28:59.400 to get these other messages out can. 1792 01:29:00.100 --> 01:29:03.340 Certainly the reason that I said yes to going to work at the AFL. 1793 01:29:03.520 --> 01:29:05.640 One in every 24 Australians 1794 01:29:05.640 --> 01:29:08.460 is a paid member of an Australian rules football club. 1795 01:29:09.020 --> 01:29:10.280 One in 24. 1796 01:29:11.300 --> 01:29:12.260 That's ridiculous. 1797 01:29:13.180 --> 01:29:15.020 And the thing is, it keeps going up. 1798 01:29:15.140 --> 01:29:16.560 And that's even through COVID, 1799 01:29:16.740 --> 01:29:19.040 where we didn't have a product for two months. 1800 01:29:20.440 --> 01:29:20.940 Pairing it up. 1801 01:29:20.940 --> 01:29:21.440 People... 1802 01:29:21.440 --> 01:29:25.040 You know, I believe that people come to sport, 1803 01:29:25.160 --> 01:29:26.240 and in our code, 1804 01:29:26.540 --> 01:29:29.240 they come to the footy because they feel they belong. 1805 01:29:30.640 --> 01:29:34.500 It's a universal need of all people is to belong. 1806 01:29:34.800 --> 01:29:37.200 We all want to know that we belong. 1807 01:29:37.800 --> 01:29:41.140 And if you can belong in a way 1808 01:29:41.140 --> 01:29:47.740 that means that people learn to behave better, 1809 01:29:49.340 --> 01:29:50.920 then you're not going to get anywhere. 1810 01:29:50.940 --> 01:29:51.700 You're not going to get a better vehicle. 1811 01:29:52.800 --> 01:29:55.000 You're just not going to get a better vehicle. 1812 01:29:55.860 --> 01:29:57.340 People will go to the footy 1813 01:29:57.340 --> 01:30:01.920 before they'll go to see an Indigenous contemporary dance company. 1814 01:30:02.700 --> 01:30:04.360 Or before they'll go to the opera. 1815 01:30:06.080 --> 01:30:07.900 Or the ballet. 1816 01:30:09.580 --> 01:30:11.160 One of the things about sport 1817 01:30:11.160 --> 01:30:15.260 is it doesn't harness class in the same way 1818 01:30:15.260 --> 01:30:17.680 that a lot of other cultural institutions do. 1819 01:30:18.700 --> 01:30:20.500 You don't have to be... 1820 01:30:21.180 --> 01:30:23.400 academically gifted to enjoy a footy game. 1821 01:30:24.360 --> 01:30:27.380 But I know the first time someone took me to the opera house 1822 01:30:27.380 --> 01:30:29.000 to see an orchestra, 1823 01:30:30.160 --> 01:30:32.080 I just sat there terrified 1824 01:30:32.080 --> 01:30:34.400 that I was going to clap at the wrong time. 1825 01:30:34.900 --> 01:30:35.820 Because someone said, 1826 01:30:35.880 --> 01:30:37.060 don't clap between movements. 1827 01:30:37.380 --> 01:30:38.780 I didn't know what the movement was. 1828 01:30:38.840 --> 01:30:39.880 What are you talking about? 1829 01:30:39.920 --> 01:30:41.280 There's no dancing going on. 1830 01:30:43.760 --> 01:30:46.480 And so you go through experiences like that 1831 01:30:46.480 --> 01:30:47.360 and you do realise, 1832 01:30:47.720 --> 01:30:49.300 you go the footy, 1833 01:30:49.300 --> 01:30:52.720 and that's why the racism hurts. 1834 01:30:52.780 --> 01:30:54.940 Because it should be somewhere we can go 1835 01:30:54.940 --> 01:30:56.360 where we belong. 1836 01:30:57.440 --> 01:31:00.780 And it's one of the reasons that I love footy 1837 01:31:00.780 --> 01:31:01.440 because growing up, 1838 01:31:01.440 --> 01:31:03.880 it's the only time I saw black fellas cheered for. 1839 01:31:05.840 --> 01:31:09.100 And when I look at the Indigenous talent 1840 01:31:09.100 --> 01:31:12.660 or black talent in any sport, 1841 01:31:12.820 --> 01:31:14.740 I feel smug. 1842 01:31:15.540 --> 01:31:17.220 Because for a few minutes, 1843 01:31:18.020 --> 01:31:19.140 I know, 1844 01:31:19.300 --> 01:31:19.820 I see, 1845 01:31:21.020 --> 01:31:22.980 you all think we're not good enough 1846 01:31:23.660 --> 01:31:26.960 in every other element of society. 1847 01:31:27.560 --> 01:31:29.960 But that just proves we're not just good enough, 1848 01:31:30.000 --> 01:31:30.480 we're better. 1849 01:31:32.080 --> 01:31:33.560 And we know, 1850 01:31:33.560 --> 01:31:34.980 the research shows us, 1851 01:31:35.020 --> 01:31:37.320 that young people take so much out of it. 1852 01:31:37.500 --> 01:31:39.600 How many black fellas are going to start playing tennis 1853 01:31:39.600 --> 01:31:41.380 after Ash Barty just won Wimbledon? 1854 01:31:42.160 --> 01:31:43.700 We know they're going to get an uplift. 1855 01:31:44.200 --> 01:31:44.960 They will. 1856 01:31:45.040 --> 01:31:45.980 In participation. 1857 01:31:46.820 --> 01:31:48.320 Is tennis ready for that? 1858 01:31:48.320 --> 01:31:51.120 To be able to harness that and keep those people in? 1859 01:31:51.240 --> 01:31:51.820 I don't know. 1860 01:31:52.160 --> 01:31:55.860 But I do think that the culture of sport 1861 01:31:55.860 --> 01:31:58.440 is powerful beyond measure. 1862 01:31:59.360 --> 01:32:03.400 And that's why we need more of us in the administration, 1863 01:32:04.320 --> 01:32:05.400 in the broadcasting. 1864 01:32:06.300 --> 01:32:08.780 So, and at decision-making levels. 1865 01:32:09.260 --> 01:32:14.940 So it's not just about a moment and a sporting career, 1866 01:32:15.080 --> 01:32:16.460 but it actually, 1867 01:32:16.520 --> 01:32:18.300 you see the growth, 1868 01:32:18.320 --> 01:32:19.280 the culture change, 1869 01:32:20.120 --> 01:32:22.840 through the participation of people who are not 1870 01:32:23.580 --> 01:32:24.840 from the one class, 1871 01:32:25.060 --> 01:32:26.380 from the one dominant culture. 1872 01:32:27.000 --> 01:32:28.240 It's absolutely critical, 1873 01:32:28.420 --> 01:32:30.100 because it won't change on its own, 1874 01:32:30.180 --> 01:32:30.800 because people, 1875 01:32:31.080 --> 01:32:32.780 at the end of the day, 1876 01:32:33.320 --> 01:32:34.780 this is about power, 1877 01:32:34.920 --> 01:32:37.100 and it's about some people having power, 1878 01:32:37.180 --> 01:32:38.540 and some of us never having it. 1879 01:32:39.020 --> 01:32:41.840 And people don't typically share power or give it up. 1880 01:32:42.580 --> 01:32:44.220 And so you have to be in the room, 1881 01:32:44.440 --> 01:32:46.000 and you've got to have a seat at the table. 1882 01:32:46.740 --> 01:32:48.080 And I think, 1883 01:32:48.480 --> 01:32:49.060 you know, 1884 01:32:49.120 --> 01:32:52.060 there's too much pressure on the athletes 1885 01:32:52.920 --> 01:32:54.360 to be the vehicle for that. 1886 01:32:55.060 --> 01:32:56.960 They want to be the best at what they do, 1887 01:32:57.100 --> 01:32:59.340 but then we want them to be the biggest advocate 1888 01:32:59.340 --> 01:33:01.840 when they do get to the top of their game. 1889 01:33:02.920 --> 01:33:04.560 They're under extraordinary pressure, 1890 01:33:04.620 --> 01:33:07.460 and we're seeing mental health problems all the time. 1891 01:33:07.900 --> 01:33:09.700 You know, on the way here, 1892 01:33:09.760 --> 01:33:11.840 I was reading about Liz Cambage, 1893 01:33:12.420 --> 01:33:14.020 who's pulled out of the Olympics 1894 01:33:14.480 --> 01:33:16.060 because of an anxiety problem. 1895 01:33:17.200 --> 01:33:18.220 And she's, you know, 1896 01:33:18.220 --> 01:33:19.680 how long has she been training for that? 1897 01:33:21.380 --> 01:33:26.840 So I think we need to harness it as a cultural strength, 1898 01:33:27.040 --> 01:33:28.780 but we need to expect more of it. 1899 01:33:30.740 --> 01:33:31.660 And can I... 1900 01:33:31.660 --> 01:33:33.380 Yeah, well said, Tanya. 1901 01:33:35.620 --> 01:33:39.000 It just goes to show how important football has been 1902 01:33:39.640 --> 01:33:40.680 in regards... 1903 01:33:40.680 --> 01:33:42.040 I mean, it is the great leveller. 1904 01:33:42.060 --> 01:33:42.540 It is. 1905 01:33:42.620 --> 01:33:45.380 It's how my mum's brothers, 1906 01:33:45.480 --> 01:33:47.340 who are wonderful Indigenous footballers 1907 01:33:47.340 --> 01:33:48.180 over in the Eyre Peninsula, 1908 01:33:49.020 --> 01:33:53.120 they got respect by playing football in the community 1909 01:33:54.040 --> 01:33:55.480 that they wouldn't have got otherwise. 1910 01:33:55.820 --> 01:33:57.680 I mean, where would we be without football? 1911 01:33:57.760 --> 01:34:01.440 Seriously, like, without having that as a platform 1912 01:34:01.440 --> 01:34:05.160 that Indigenous people can have a voice? 1913 01:34:05.300 --> 01:34:07.340 Like, it just would be frightening 1914 01:34:07.340 --> 01:34:08.520 if football didn't exist. 1915 01:34:09.240 --> 01:34:10.340 It'd be unbelievable. 1916 01:34:11.560 --> 01:34:14.520 Where would we go as a society? 1917 01:34:14.740 --> 01:34:15.860 Where would we start? 1918 01:34:16.440 --> 01:34:17.240 It's just... 1919 01:34:17.240 --> 01:34:18.640 It would be mind-blowing 1920 01:34:18.640 --> 01:34:23.580 how the lack of progress that would have... 1921 01:34:23.580 --> 01:34:26.220 would happen without footy. 1922 01:34:26.260 --> 01:34:29.300 So for me, seeing... 1923 01:34:29.300 --> 01:34:31.940 Yeah, in a way, growing up, I saw football as an out. 1924 01:34:32.040 --> 01:34:35.220 I saw it growing up in Salisbury with nothing. 1925 01:34:35.420 --> 01:34:38.100 I remember going to school with... 1926 01:34:40.500 --> 01:34:42.120 ..footy...with sneakers, right? 1927 01:34:42.220 --> 01:34:44.260 So, I mean, Paulie would know this. 1928 01:34:44.320 --> 01:34:45.500 A lot of Aboriginal people would know this. 1929 01:34:45.560 --> 01:34:45.840 Like, I... 1930 01:34:46.700 --> 01:34:49.080 I'd have one pair of shoes they would wear out pretty quick 1931 01:34:49.080 --> 01:34:50.960 because I was a pretty athletic sort of guy 1932 01:34:50.960 --> 01:34:55.540 and we didn't have money to, you know, replace shoes too often. 1933 01:34:55.680 --> 01:34:59.640 They'd usually be hand-me-downs or the neighbours' shoes. 1934 01:34:59.760 --> 01:35:04.380 And I remember one time I had to go to school with footy boots. 1935 01:35:05.980 --> 01:35:06.740 Imagine that. 1936 01:35:07.320 --> 01:35:09.060 And all these kids were looking at me. 1937 01:35:09.660 --> 01:35:10.840 I was so embarrassed. 1938 01:35:11.080 --> 01:35:14.400 Like, I had to walk to school with these footy boots. 1939 01:35:14.500 --> 01:35:14.900 And you know what? 1940 01:35:14.900 --> 01:35:17.780 We didn't have any grass at our school. 1941 01:35:18.680 --> 01:35:22.100 It was all bitumen, so the old stops wore down quite quick. 1942 01:35:22.880 --> 01:35:23.540 You know? 1943 01:35:25.000 --> 01:35:25.480 And... 1944 01:35:27.220 --> 01:35:30.960 ..when I realised that, hey, football could be something for me, 1945 01:35:32.640 --> 01:35:35.080 I just sort of zeroed in on it 1946 01:35:35.080 --> 01:35:39.280 and went for it and started to go to all the training sessions 1947 01:35:39.280 --> 01:35:43.920 and not get caught up in the opportunities that were around me 1948 01:35:43.920 --> 01:35:48.960 growing up with my cousins and seeing what they were getting up to 1949 01:35:48.960 --> 01:35:52.360 because that was just the way it was. 1950 01:35:52.640 --> 01:35:53.940 So, you know, footy saved me. 1951 01:35:54.040 --> 01:35:58.300 And, you know, without football, I owe a lot to football. 1952 01:35:58.420 --> 01:36:00.120 I owe a lot to the Essendon Football Club. 1953 01:36:00.300 --> 01:36:02.080 I owe a lot to the Port Adelaide Footy Club 1954 01:36:02.080 --> 01:36:04.820 because without footy, I'd be lost. 1955 01:36:05.100 --> 01:36:10.640 And, yeah, it's definitely the great level of getting on that footy field 1956 01:36:10.640 --> 01:36:12.100 and being able to earn respect. 1957 01:36:12.680 --> 01:36:13.900 Those footy boots were great. 1958 01:36:13.900 --> 01:36:15.260 They're just worth real money now, you know? 1959 01:36:15.360 --> 01:36:16.580 Damn, I should have kept them. 1960 01:36:17.760 --> 01:36:21.120 Can I just quickly say that I agree, like, 1961 01:36:21.160 --> 01:36:23.720 football is the church of the people, right? 1962 01:36:23.860 --> 01:36:28.520 And, you know, what we do know now, you know, 1963 01:36:28.540 --> 01:36:32.240 from the experiences from Nicky Wimma, from Adam Goodes, 1964 01:36:32.240 --> 01:36:36.140 from you guys, is that we know more now, right? 1965 01:36:36.220 --> 01:36:37.320 We demand more. 1966 01:36:37.440 --> 01:36:42.560 And that's what our current players are kind of, you know, 1967 01:36:42.580 --> 01:36:43.740 putting on their Instagrams. 1968 01:36:43.900 --> 01:36:48.680 And I think...and that's where I think the game will create 1969 01:36:48.680 --> 01:36:52.020 the greatest change and have the greatest impact 1970 01:36:52.020 --> 01:36:57.340 because, you know, I don't think a man like Adam Goodes will stand... 1971 01:36:57.340 --> 01:36:59.600 ..another player like Adam Goodes will stand alone 1972 01:36:59.600 --> 01:37:04.900 because we know more and we demand more 1973 01:37:05.440 --> 01:37:10.180 and that is the power of the church of football. 1974 01:37:10.580 --> 01:37:13.880 So that would be my response to your question. 1975 01:37:14.520 --> 01:37:16.300 Nice. Nice one. 1976 01:37:16.460 --> 01:37:19.280 There isn't an Aboriginal person around that hasn't been raised 1977 01:37:19.280 --> 01:37:22.600 to leave the world in a better place than what they found it 1978 01:37:22.600 --> 01:37:25.180 and to make sure that the next generation is looked after. 1979 01:37:25.440 --> 01:37:28.000 And you can say that we've certainly seen that through sport 1980 01:37:28.000 --> 01:37:31.120 and the people that have played in different sports 1981 01:37:31.120 --> 01:37:33.300 and the space that they've had for people 1982 01:37:33.300 --> 01:37:36.040 and what they've done moving forward. 1983 01:37:36.260 --> 01:37:40.140 So thank you so much to all of you for your wisdom 1984 01:37:40.140 --> 01:37:41.100 and sharing your truth. 1985 01:37:41.300 --> 01:37:42.720 I think we could have listened to them all night. 1986 01:37:42.720 --> 01:37:46.200 I'm sure there are other people there that have questions for you as well, 1987 01:37:46.680 --> 01:37:48.840 but our time has come to an end. 1988 01:37:49.020 --> 01:37:51.040 And enjoy Illuminate. 1989 01:37:51.140 --> 01:37:53.940 I am so jealous that I can't be there 1990 01:37:53.940 --> 01:37:56.160 and I hope that I'll get to them next year. 1991 01:37:56.220 --> 01:37:57.580 Thank you to all of you. 1992 01:37:57.660 --> 01:38:00.420 Thank you, Bruce, Paulie, Gavin, Tanya and Taryn. 1993 01:38:00.600 --> 01:38:02.400 It has been so wonderful. 1994 01:38:02.740 --> 01:38:03.440 Take care. 1995 01:38:03.480 --> 01:38:05.640 Thank you also to the amazing audience that came 1996 01:38:05.640 --> 01:38:08.640 and to everybody on Zoom who's listened in tonight. 1997 01:38:08.960 --> 01:38:12.120 Take care and can we please give them all a final round of applause 1998 01:38:12.120 --> 01:38:12.700 and good night. 1999 01:38:12.720 --> 01:38:13.120 .