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<v Tory Shepherd>Hello everyone and welcome. Can I also acknowledge that we meet today on the land of the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains,

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<v Tory Shepherd>that sovereignty was never ceded, and pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging,

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<v Tory Shepherd>and welcome to the Festival of Ideas.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Luckily, you can de-mask if you wish. You don't have to, but we are under our 50% capacity,

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<v Tory Shepherd>so feel free to do the big flamboyant reveal.

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<v Tory Shepherd>If you need it, the exits are up the back, the way you came in, you'll be fine.

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<v Tory Shepherd>My name's Tory Shepherd, I am a journalist and the least interesting person on this stage.

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<v Tory Shepherd>So, I'm going to introduce you to our speakers and bear in mind throughout that we will have questions at the end.

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<v Tory Shepherd>So, while you're sitting there and you're thinking that I missed something bloody obvious,

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<v Tory Shepherd>because that's fairly likely to happen, tuck it away and we'll be setting up a microphone in the aisle so everyone can ask questions.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Okay, we've got Tara in Brumford. The first line here is, she's here to change the world.

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<v Tory Shepherd>I sort of knew you'd pull that.

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<v Tory Shepherd>I don't know who wrote that. I didn't write it.

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<v Tory Shepherd>I thought you might pull that face.

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<v Tory Shepherd>She's the director of the film Embrace, which has been seen in 190 countries.

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<v Tory Shepherd>She's working on the next documentary, And Moving House, which seems wildly foolish to do all of that at the same time.

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<v Tory Shepherd>She's an author, a speaker and is the leader behind the body image movement.

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<v Tory Shepherd>We've also, have we got Clementine Ford?

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<v Tory Shepherd>Hey, there she is.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Oh, Clem, you just got a little applaud.

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<v Tory Shepherd>I know.

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<v Tory Shepherd>So, Clementine Ford was going to be returning to her homeland, but unfortunately that damn pandemic got in the way.

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<v Tory Shepherd>If you don't know, she's a writer and a bestselling author now in NAM or Melbourne.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Her book, Fight Like a Girl, has caused huge debate and enraged the men's rights activists.

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<v Tory Shepherd>And she's probably one of the fiercest, bravest people I know.

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<v Tory Shepherd>In terms of fighting those MRA bastards.

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<v Tory Shepherd>So good to see you, Clem.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Professor Megan Waren.

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<v Tory Shepherd>I had to say that very carefully because in my head I kept saying Warren.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Waren.

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<v Tory Shepherd>She's a professor and social anthropologist here at the University of Adelaide and focuses on socio-cultural values and practices and how they're embodied, particularly around eating, disordered eating, obesity and the gendered and moral assumptions that similarly inform how we respond to such complex problems.

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<v Tory Shepherd>And it might not sound like it from that, but I think she's a bit of a live-wire.

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<v Tory Shepherd>And Cam at the end.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Cam, pause, Payne, because if you run those two names together too quickly, it sounds very activist.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Cam's a queer autistic researcher.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Cam Payne, I'm just going to say it now.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Cam Payne is a queer autistic researcher, educator and writer based in Adelaide.

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<v Tory Shepherd>And at the moment he's studying critical autism studies where he works with autism.

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<v Tory Shepherd>And he's working with autistic people to expand understandings of autism beyond the traditional models of tragedy and disability.

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<v Tory Shepherd>And we might even get to talk about tragedy porn a little bit later.

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<v Tory Shepherd>I hope so.

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<v Tory Shepherd>We've got a lot to get through.

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<v Tory Shepherd>What I wanted to do, though, was start with a vulnerable moment.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Because online is a battle that, you know, nobody is winning at this stage.

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<v Tory Shepherd>You open yourself up.

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<v Tory Shepherd>You get hurt.

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<v Tory Shepherd>You have to be there, but it can be painful.

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<v Tory Shepherd>So could we just go on?

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<v Tory Shepherd>I mean, go on.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Okay, here's one of my favorite moments was Senator David Lionhelm got everybody to dig up old horrible photos of me and post them.

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<v Tory Shepherd>And talk about how disgustingly ugly I was.

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<v Tory Shepherd>And you know, just when you think you've got a thick skin.

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<v Tory Shepherd>So, Taryn, your experience online.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, for those of you who don't know, about nine years ago now, I posted some photographs on social media.

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<v Speaker 2>They were nontraditional before and after photos because we generally see people in a before image that is in a heavier body and really sad.

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<v Speaker 2>And then they lose weight and miraculously they become happy.

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<v Speaker 2>So I swapped mine around and it went really viral.

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<v Speaker 2>We're talking, you know, a couple of hundred million people saw this photo and it made headline news across the globe, which is the most stupid thing I've ever heard.

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<v Speaker 2>What a woman learns to embrace her body.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's just so sad.

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<v Speaker 2>It's headline news.

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<v Speaker 2>With that many people seeing that image, I was a photographer, mum of three, living in Cumberland Park.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd never had any, I'd never done any media interviews.

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<v Speaker 2>This was a completely new territory for me.

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<v Speaker 2>And the trolls were cruel.

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<v Speaker 2>They came after me and my family and my kids.

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<v Speaker 2>And when it was unfolding, I made a promise to myself when I was in high school.

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<v Speaker 2>I dropped out of high school.

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<v Speaker 2>I was bullied.

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<v Speaker 2>So when I dropped out of high school, I said to myself, if ever in life I feel like someone's trying to put me in a corner or say things about me or troll me or tease or bully, that I would stand up for myself.

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<v Speaker 2>So I started to try and get back to these tens of thousands of messages that I was receiving.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like, I am going to get back to all of them.

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<v Speaker 2>Impossible.

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<v Speaker 2>Impossible.

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<v Speaker 2>But also it.

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<v Speaker 2>It took away so much of my joy and my light and my love.

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<v Speaker 2>And it took me down this really awful path of trying to keep up, trying to justify myself, trying to justify my actions and my words.

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<v Speaker 2>So I very quickly learned to pull back, let them have their say.

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<v Speaker 2>The irony is when I released my film in 2016, our lawyers came back and said there was a section about the trolls.

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<v Speaker 2>In the film.

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<v Speaker 2>But we had to block out their names because of how they might feel.

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<v Speaker 2>And we did.

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<v Speaker 2>We had to.

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<v Speaker 2>We weren't going to get out provisional certificates and out insurance and out green light to put this film in cinemas unless we blocked out their names.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's been a road.

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<v Speaker 2>Are you still glad you did it?

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<v Speaker 2>Which part?

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<v Speaker 2>The initial post.

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<v Speaker 2>100%.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, what, you know, I received over 7 000 e-mails and messages from people around the world.

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<v Speaker 2>When I shared how I felt about my body image, it really sort of revealed, which was back then nine years ago, an epidemic that was going on behind closed doors.

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<v Speaker 2>People were holding on to their secrets.

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<v Speaker 2>I had one woman write to me and said, as a child, I suffered from sexual abuse.

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<v Speaker 2>I now walk down the street.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm in a heavier, larger body.

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<v Speaker 2>I have two children.

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<v Speaker 2>People think I'm a fat pig, and that's what they call me, but they don't know that every single day I'm trying to keep my head above water, and I'm just trying to survive.

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<v Speaker 2>And she had never told anyone that story.

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<v Speaker 2>So, yeah, I am so happy that I posted those photos.

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<v Speaker 2>It's had a personal toll on me because I never set out to be a public figure, but I'm just going along for the ride now.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Megan, do you open yourself up?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, thank you for that.

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<v Speaker 2>You're a fun person.

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<v Speaker 2>No, start it again.

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<v Speaker 2>Sorry, I'm sorry.

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<v Speaker 2>I said we might.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, thank you, everybody.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Megan, do you open up online?

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<v Tory Shepherd>Do you let people see what's going on in your head?

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<v Speaker 3>In my head, but probably not my life.

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<v Speaker 3>So, being an academic at an institution, I'm very mindful of who I'm representing when I'm on Twitter, for example.

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<v Speaker 3>So, most of the...

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<v Speaker 3>The things I post are actually related to research or what's happening politically, but keeping in mind the various constraints that we have in terms of litigation and etc.

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<v Speaker 3>So, I think I've never experienced trolling because I don't put myself out there in those vulnerable positions.

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<v Speaker 3>Our vulnerabilities are much more about putting our own research and our work out there and getting rejected and critiqued in that way in a very public form.

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<v Speaker 3>In our writing and research, but certainly not that personal sort of vitriol, that cruelty and that sense of damage that you can have that you've just recounted.

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<v Speaker 3>And I know that Clementine also has experienced that.

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<v Speaker 3>So, I'm lucky to say I don't have that sense of...

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<v Tory Shepherd>Is there anything you ever wish you'd shared and you haven't until now?

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<v Tory Shepherd>And now you're going to tell us something dastardly you would have posted?

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<v Speaker 4>I'm just...

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<v Speaker 4>No, you don't worry.

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<v Speaker 4>You don't have to answer that one.

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<v Speaker 4>So many things.

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<v Speaker 4>That's what I want to know.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Cam, how's your experience been in the world of social media?

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<v Speaker 5>Well, I certainly haven't been as exposed as Taryn or Clementine, but I publicly transitioned from female to male online about five years ago.

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<v Speaker 5>In a much smaller way.

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<v Speaker 5>Nothing went viral.

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<v Speaker 5>But...

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<v Speaker 5>That was a positive type of vulnerability for me because I saw a lot of the people around me learning through my experience and becoming more aware of the huge variety of people that are in the world.

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<v Speaker 5>And they overwhelmingly were supportive over time.

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<v Speaker 5>And that was an incredibly positive thing.

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<v Speaker 5>Unfortunately, a couple of years ago, in my personal life, my transness was used against me.

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<v Speaker 5>And I ended up closing down and turning a lot of my social media to private because I was afraid that what I shared so openly before would be used against me in my personal life.

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<v Speaker 5>And I'm just starting to open that up now.

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<v Speaker 5>And to share some of my research as well.

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<v Speaker 5>Because I still think it's important to share some of those vulnerable moments with particularly younger trans people who...

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<v Speaker 5>Who are...

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<v Speaker 5>Who are very vulnerable.

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<v Speaker 5>And don't see those positive stories of support.

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<v Speaker 5>And just joy in life.

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<v Speaker 5>So, yeah.

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<v Speaker 5>Trying to find that balance between vulnerability and safety is very difficult.

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<v Speaker 5>And I'm still looking for it.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Did you miss it when you were out of it?

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<v Speaker 5>I missed the community.

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<v Speaker 5>There were certain aspects I didn't miss.

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<v Speaker 5>Which was that sense of always being watched and always having to be on and look right and behave in certain ways.

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<v Speaker 5>And I didn't miss the sense of being able to portray your life in a particular way because that pressure is very real.

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<v Speaker 5>But yeah, I did miss that sense of community because that was a way that I connected with a lot of people in my life.

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<v Speaker 5>And some of them sort of drifted away as a result.

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<v Tory Shepherd>We might come back to how you're dealing with things now and how community online works as well.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Clementine Ford, every time I get a death threat or a rape threat, I think of you.

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<v Tory Shepherd>.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Oh, I'm so touched.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Yeah.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Particularly because I always think I know who this person is or I know where they work or I can probably find out without too much difficulty.

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<v Tory Shepherd>And then I run through that thing in my head of, shall I?

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<v Tory Shepherd>Like, why do they get to say these things?

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<v Tory Shepherd>And what is wrong with me exposing them?

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<v Tory Shepherd>Tell us, how are you going now?

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<v Speaker 6>Okay.

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<v Speaker 6>Well, firstly, I'd just like to say that I'm so sad.

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<v Speaker 6>Not to be there in Adelaide with you all.

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<v Speaker 6>I, uh, it's just speaking about vulnerability.

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<v Speaker 6>It is very weird time right here in Melbourne.

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<v Speaker 6>I'm coming to you from obviously beautiful Wurundjeri country, but it's grim at the moment.

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<v Speaker 6>So, um, I'm feeling a little bit kind of like an open wound here.

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<v Speaker 6>So I may cry at some point.

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<v Speaker 6>Um, thank you all for sharing your stories as well, by the way, I know how vulnerable it makes you feel to sit on a stage and say those things.

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<v Speaker 6>Uh, I guess one of the things that probably is going to come up in, in this session.

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<v Speaker 6>I mean, everyone's heard about the online trolling that I've received in the way that I've fought back against it, but I've done some pretty awful things online myself.

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<v Speaker 6>And I've said things that I regret.

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<v Speaker 6>And I know that there is one tweet that people will be very familiar with when they think of me, that they probably wondering how someone like me who could have said something like that can possibly be sitting here and talking about the abuse they've received online.

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<v Speaker 6>For me.

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<v Speaker 6>I think.

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<v Speaker 6>What's interesting is that, you know, we talk about the anonymity of social media and how people can sit behind a screen and say things that they would never say to your face.

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<v Speaker 6>And I can say as someone who has been led into that, that I know exactly how that feels.

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<v Speaker 6>You get so head up, you get so angry.

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<v Speaker 6>You feel like you're proving a point for a moral purpose.

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<v Speaker 6>And for me with that particular tweet, I'm not going to repeat what I said.

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<v Speaker 6>Everyone knows with that particular tweet and I'm not defending it.

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<v Speaker 6>But it was part of a contextually longer conversation.

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<v Speaker 6>About the domestic inequality of labor that was emerging as a result of the pandemic.

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<v Speaker 6>So for me, I saw it as being an expression of rage at this injustice.

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<v Speaker 6>But unfortunately, the online space enables us to reach for like truly heinous language and truly heinous rhetoric.

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<v Speaker 6>But then because of the nature of that space, I mean, Tori, you're on Twitter.

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<v Speaker 6>You know what a hellscape is.

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<v Speaker 6>I left Twitter after I wrote that tweet because I thought to myself, this place is not good for me.

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<v Speaker 6>This place is not good for me.

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<v Speaker 6>This is not good for my soul.

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<v Speaker 6>It's not good for the, it's not good at helping me to be the kind of person and human that I want to be.

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<v Speaker 6>And the kind of activist I want to be that has a moral framework.

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<v Speaker 6>But also there was a part of me that realized that that was the discourse that I'd been swimming in for the last 10 years.

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<v Speaker 6>Which enabled me to think that's a fine thing to say.

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<v Speaker 6>That's okay to say something like that.

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<v Speaker 6>Because this is how people talk.

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<v Speaker 6>This is how people have talked to me.

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<v Speaker 6>This is how people have been talking to me for the last 10 years.

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<v Speaker 6>So it felt like almost a surprise initially that people would be shocked by it.

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<v Speaker 6>That's kind of not really answering what you said.

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<v Tory Shepherd>No, but it's a really interesting tangent.

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<v Tory Shepherd>It's like the Overton window of social media discourse where suddenly things become sayable that previously wouldn't have been.

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<v Speaker 6>Well, exactly.

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<v Speaker 6>And I think that one of the things that people struggle to do, and I'm not sort of saying like, wow, I'm amazing.

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<v Speaker 6>But one of the things that people struggle to do, which I've worked really hard on myself in trying to do.

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<v Speaker 6>And it's not always easy.

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<v Speaker 6>Because we do get irate and indignant about being called out for things.

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<v Speaker 6>And our first impulse is always to defend ourselves.

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<v Speaker 6>Something I've tried really hard to do is to accept when I'm wrong.

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<v Speaker 6>And to be able to apologize for the things that have been harmful to people.

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<v Speaker 6>I'm not saying I'm great at it all the time.

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<v Speaker 6>But I feel like that's something that's really sorely lacking in online space.

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<v Speaker 6>And I think that's something that's really sorely lacking in online spaces as well.

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<v Speaker 6>The ability for people to sit in the discomfort.

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<v Speaker 6>What I do when I expose trolls and when I try and I guess kind of use them as an example.

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<v Speaker 6>Is to make them sit in the discomfort that they've tried to force onto me.

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<v Speaker 6>So I talk about doing the spotlight switch.

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<v Speaker 6>Which is, you know, for example, Tori, the men who send you equally heinous things.

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<v Speaker 6>They want you to feel afraid.

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<v Speaker 6>And they want you to feel ashamed.

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<v Speaker 6>And they want you to feel scared of being a woman in the world.

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<v Speaker 6>And a woman on the internet who has opinions.

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<v Speaker 6>They never expect you to switch that spotlight onto them.

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<v Speaker 6>And flood them with those same feelings.

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<v Speaker 6>And so one of the things that I talk about.

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<v Speaker 6>Or one of the reasons that I do that.

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<v Speaker 6>And why I do expose trolls.

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<v Speaker 6>And why I do share what they say with other people.

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<v Speaker 6>Is firstly, I shouldn't have to live with it in private.

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<v Speaker 6>This should not be the price that I or any person pays.

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<v Speaker 6>For having an opinion on the internet.

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<v Speaker 6>Or having strong social justice values.

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<v Speaker 6>But also they.

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<v Speaker 6>They need to know what it feels like to sit in that shame.

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<v Speaker 6>And they need.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Oh Clem, we've lost your audio.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Right now everyone wishes they could sign.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Let's go to Cam.

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<v Tory Shepherd>So we're talking about the self.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Can't.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Yeah.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Oh no.

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<v Tory Shepherd>That's not good.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Wait if you can hear us.

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<v Speaker 6>Hang on.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Oh yay.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Can you hear me?

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<v Tory Shepherd>Yes, you're back.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Do you remember where you were?

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<v Tory Shepherd>Oh no.

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<v Tory Shepherd>I'm not sure at which point you lost me.

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<v Tory Shepherd>So you were talking about making the people who troll you sit in their own shame.

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<v Speaker 6>Okay, right.

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<v Speaker 6>I'm sorry about that.

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<v Speaker 6>You're on mute Clem.

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<v Tory Shepherd>You're on mute.

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<v Tory Shepherd>You're not anymore.

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<v Tory Shepherd>I'm joking.

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<v Tory Shepherd>No, you're not.

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<v Tory Shepherd>I'm sorry.

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<v Tory Shepherd>That was mean.

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<v Speaker 6>Oh, I hate technology.

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<v Speaker 6>I hate technology.

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<v Speaker 6>We all need to become comfortable with, as a people, we are so afraid of what it means

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<v Speaker 6>to feel ashamed.

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<v Speaker 6>We think, we automatically assume that shame is always a bad thing.

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<v Speaker 6>Shame makes us feel bad and sometimes people make us ashamed for the things that we don't

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<v Speaker 6>deserve to feel ashamed for.

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<v Speaker 6>But shame in and of itself can be a really useful constructive tool for growth and being

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<v Speaker 6>able to explore the reasons why we're feeling ashamed about something.

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<v Speaker 6>Particularly if it's to do with our own behaviour towards someone else, I think is a really

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<v Speaker 6>essential part of being a human, but also something that we really need to bring into

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<v Speaker 6>the, that has to be an essential part of engaging online because it's so easy to behave in really

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<v Speaker 6>inhumane ways in that online space.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Thank you so much.

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<v Tory Shepherd>And we're so glad you're with us in 2D form.

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<v Tory Shepherd>I wish it was 3D.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Me too.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Cam, so we're talking about, you know, the

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<v Tory Shepherd>selfie, the way that the gaze is upon us and how we deal with having that gaze upon

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<v Tory Shepherd>us.

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<v Tory Shepherd>And you were saying that you pulled away from that for a while.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Can you talk us through your decision to come back and how it feels to be back in the gaze

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<v Tory Shepherd>and how you would deal with challenges in the future?

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<v Speaker 5>Well, part of it is a professional decision because my research is done all online among

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<v Speaker 5>autistic people who spend a lot of time making community videos.

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<v Speaker 5>And I think that's a really important part of being online.

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<v Speaker 5>So to be in those spaces, I have to be visible again.

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<v Speaker 5>I've started to tend more towards what Megan was talking about with a more professional

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<v Speaker 5>curated version of myself online, which isn't my preference, I have to admit.

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<v Speaker 5>I did like the, I guess, the sort of freedom that came with that kind of radical vulnerability.

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<v Speaker 5>That I had before.

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<v Speaker 5>But I'm still a little gun shy about the consequences of that because in my personal life they were

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<v Speaker 5>quite significant.

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<v Speaker 5>And in my future professional life, that's a difficult balance to walk because whatever

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<v Speaker 5>institution that I'm working for is going to have certain standards and certain expectations

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<v Speaker 5>that particularly someone who has some of my more radical views is going to run away.

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<v Speaker 5>step outside if I'm not careful so and that's a that's in itself is quite difficult but um

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<v Speaker 5>yeah I don't think I found the balance yet between that kind of honesty that I really

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<v Speaker 5>value in other people who are in online spaces and um in my professional life.

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<v Tory Shepherd>I really worry about how that might hurt your brain to have to be carrying your curated self

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<v Tory Shepherd>alongside the honest self that you'd like to be. Yeah I mean for so many of us the

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<v Speaker 5>the honest self is still very curated because I'm not showing the days when I have shutdowns

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<v Speaker 5>and I can't function and five days worth of dishes are sitting on my sink

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<v Speaker 5>and in some ways that's a shame because it's all very well for me to say look at me I'm an

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<v Speaker 5>autistic person living this great life which is true but it doesn't show the rest of the

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<v Speaker 5>story and that's what I I miss about how I used to share online because there's a lot of judgment

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<v Speaker 5>attached to that but I think it's important to see. Hashtag no filter.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Megan how do you see this affecting let's talk about let's talk about weight for now because

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<v Tory Shepherd>that is I mean I would say one of the things that I I thought you know I'd reach middle age and this

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<v Tory Shepherd>wouldn't be a thing that my friends worried about anymore.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Not true unfortunately. How does the gaze affect how women think about and show themselves

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<v Tory Shepherd>online and I'm gonna do a bit of a double whammy. I'm wondering I have this beautiful studio shot I

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<v Tory Shepherd>think it's like on the promo stuff where it doesn't look like me at all and so now I've got

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<v Tory Shepherd>really used to like meeting people they're like oh you don't look like that you know studio makeup

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<v Tory Shepherd>um professional photo shoot person and that actually like it messes with my head a little

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<v Tory Shepherd>bit I've got to get a different shot but how does that affect women who are going to all these links

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<v Tory Shepherd>to present themselves a certain way online when that's not the way they are in real life?

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<v Speaker 3>I think I can respond to that in relation to some of the research I do so most of much of my

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<v Speaker 3>research is working with young young women but also some women in middle age who've had

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<v Speaker 3>eating disorders for most of their life and that sense of

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<v Speaker 3>presentation.

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<v Speaker 3>Transcription

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<v Speaker 3>In my research, I found that people with any disorders,

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<v Speaker 3>and anorexia in particular, use those images,

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<v Speaker 3>those curated images of themselves which they share online,

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<v Speaker 3>as a way to actually become better at what they do,

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<v Speaker 3>so to become a better anorexic.

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<v Speaker 3>And they talk about anorexia as a lifestyle, not a disease.

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<v Speaker 3>So they're strategically taking this historical psychiatric category

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<v Speaker 3>and turning it into something else.

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<v Speaker 3>They're using their own agency to resist the ways

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<v Speaker 3>in which anorexia and other eating disorders

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<v Speaker 3>have been pathologised through medicine.

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<v Speaker 3>So, in fact, it's quite a powerful, empowering platform for them.

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<v Speaker 3>It's also empowering because they can share tips,

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<v Speaker 3>and so it builds community,

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<v Speaker 3>and it's also a way of resisting some of the norms of femininity

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<v Speaker 3>and pushing back against psychiatry and medicine.

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<v Speaker 3>And it's very empowering.

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<v Speaker 3>It's very empowering because they're doing something

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<v Speaker 3>which many women across their lives fail at,

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<v Speaker 3>and that is dieting and taking control of their weight.

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<v Speaker 3>So, in that field, the ways in which images are curated online

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<v Speaker 3>is very empowering in their view,

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<v Speaker 3>but of course it has quite dire consequences.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Yeah, I think we think of empowering and having agency as being a good thing,

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<v Tory Shepherd>but if the community is doing something that's empowering,

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<v Tory Shepherd>and the community you're cultivating has such negative side effects,

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<v Tory Shepherd>it's obviously not.

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<v Tory Shepherd>And I think, is it pro-ana?

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<v Tory Shepherd>There's a lot of, like, very, yeah, pushing hard on the anorexia line.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Yes.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Can you break...

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<v Tory Shepherd>Are there ways to start to break that cycle of reinforcement?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>So, I think people with eating disorders,

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<v Speaker 3>certainly the ones that I've been working with,

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<v Speaker 3>are very cognisant of the productive power of those sorts of spaces.

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<v Speaker 3>But having said that, they also realise

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<v Speaker 3>that it can be very negative and that it's very much a seductive hole,

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<v Speaker 3>because what they're looking or stepping into is a desire.

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<v Speaker 3>It's ironically like a hunger, which is never ending,

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<v Speaker 3>because you can never be thin enough.

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<v Speaker 3>You can never be...

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<v Speaker 3>They say to me the best anorexic is a person who's dead.

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<v Speaker 3>So, you know, it's not a good place to be, but it's very seductive.

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<v Speaker 3>So, some people also use those spaces

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<v Speaker 3>if they're wanting to move away from that.

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<v Speaker 3>So, I've more recently seen people with eating disorders

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<v Speaker 3>using those spaces in terms of recovery.

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<v Speaker 3>So, building community with other people

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<v Speaker 3>who are at a very similar stage of an eating disorder process,

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<v Speaker 3>where they're actually using that in much more productive ways.

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<v Speaker 3>So, it can be used...

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<v Speaker 3>It depends on who's using it

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<v Speaker 3>and what that community's being built around and who's it for.

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<v Speaker 3>Is it a rejection? Is it a resistance?

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<v Speaker 3>Is it conformity?

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<v Speaker 3>You know, there are so many different uses

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<v Speaker 3>and things which are produced through these online spaces.

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<v Speaker 3>Taryn, you've got something to say.

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<v Speaker 2>I was just going to add to that.

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<v Speaker 2>I know that the work of Dr Pritchard at Flinders University

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<v Speaker 2>speaks about the before and after.

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<v Speaker 2>It's such a classic that we see on social media.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Self-transformation. It's very seductive, isn't it?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it is seductive.

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<v Speaker 2>And so many women and men

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<v Speaker 2>strive to have that particular body shape.

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<v Speaker 2>And they're using those images to motivate them

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<v Speaker 2>and change their own health behaviours.

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<v Speaker 2>So, the outcome is that they look like those people in the magazine

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<v Speaker 2>or in the after photos.

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<v Speaker 2>But we know that it actually has the opposite effect.

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<v Speaker 2>And the scientific data shows

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<v Speaker 2>that it's more likely to take you away from that goal

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<v Speaker 2>and further towards being depressed, being demotivated.

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<v Speaker 2>And being worse off than what you are.

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<v Tory Shepherd>Clem, how do you think we're going in diversity?

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<v Tory Shepherd>I always love when you say, like,

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<v Tory Shepherd>oh, amazing, here's a plus-size model.

407
00:26:50.320 --> 00:26:51.920
<v Tory Shepherd>She's a 12. Isn't this incredible?

408
00:26:52.260 --> 00:26:55.140
<v Tory Shepherd>They're doing such good things for diversity and beauty online.

409
00:26:56.260 --> 00:26:57.360
<v Tory Shepherd>What are we missing?

410
00:26:57.460 --> 00:26:58.840
<v Tory Shepherd>I mean, you still don't see...

411
00:27:00.620 --> 00:27:01.200
<v Tory Shepherd>..sammu-lites.

412
00:27:01.220 --> 00:27:02.220
<v Tory Shepherd>Oh, look, I think that...

413
00:27:03.800 --> 00:27:05.720
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I guess it depends...

414
00:27:06.700 --> 00:27:08.000
<v Speaker 6>It depends where you're looking.

415
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:11.300
<v Speaker 6>I think that that's true in mainstream media, for sure.

416
00:27:11.540 --> 00:27:12.480
<v Speaker 6>Still very...

417
00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:14.040
<v Speaker 6>There's still a huge lack of diversity.

418
00:27:15.560 --> 00:27:16.040
<v Speaker 6>Um...

419
00:27:16.040 --> 00:27:18.520
<v Speaker 6>I do think, though, that the difference between now

420
00:27:18.520 --> 00:27:20.180
<v Speaker 6>and, say, 10 years ago...

421
00:27:20.180 --> 00:27:21.480
<v Speaker 6>I mean, obviously, we also need to remember

422
00:27:21.480 --> 00:27:23.400
<v Speaker 6>that social media is pretty young.

423
00:27:23.900 --> 00:27:26.420
<v Speaker 6>And it's evolved so rapidly

424
00:27:26.420 --> 00:27:30.680
<v Speaker 6>and so exponentially in terms of how people use it

425
00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:32.540
<v Speaker 6>and what you can find there,

426
00:27:32.680 --> 00:27:37.300
<v Speaker 6>that the way that we've progressed is actually pretty amazing,

427
00:27:37.300 --> 00:27:38.560
<v Speaker 4>in lots of respects.

428
00:27:38.900 --> 00:27:40.000
<v Speaker 6>I see...

429
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:41.660
<v Speaker 6>You know, I use Instagram a lot now.

430
00:27:41.780 --> 00:27:44.260
<v Speaker 6>I didn't really use it so much before the lockdown last year,

431
00:27:44.320 --> 00:27:46.340
<v Speaker 6>but I found that, for me personally,

432
00:27:46.460 --> 00:27:47.600
<v Speaker 6>it was a place where I could...

433
00:27:47.600 --> 00:27:51.060
<v Speaker 6>I began really building a feminist community online there.

434
00:27:51.260 --> 00:27:54.820
<v Speaker 6>And it became a real kind of lifeline during the lockdown

435
00:27:54.820 --> 00:27:57.000
<v Speaker 6>to be able to connect with other women,

436
00:27:57.080 --> 00:27:59.160
<v Speaker 6>a lot of whom were also going through the Melbourne lockdown.

437
00:27:59.240 --> 00:28:01.720
<v Speaker 6>Some of whom were in the UK and in Canada as well,

438
00:28:01.800 --> 00:28:04.840
<v Speaker 6>and kind of had this unique shared experience.

439
00:28:05.540 --> 00:28:07.100
<v Speaker 6>But through that, I've...

440
00:28:07.100 --> 00:28:09.580
<v Speaker 6>You know, I follow the accounts of a lot of fat women online,

441
00:28:09.800 --> 00:28:11.800
<v Speaker 6>and I'm using that word, obviously, deliberately,

442
00:28:11.860 --> 00:28:14.040
<v Speaker 6>because the reclamation of the word fat

443
00:28:14.040 --> 00:28:16.160
<v Speaker 6>as being nothing but a descriptor

444
00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:19.320
<v Speaker 6>is something that a lot of places still have to catch up to.

445
00:28:20.500 --> 00:28:22.660
<v Speaker 6>So I follow a lot of accounts of fat women,

446
00:28:22.680 --> 00:28:23.940
<v Speaker 6>and I see really diverse bodies,

447
00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:25.900
<v Speaker 6>and I follow a lot of accounts of people of colour.

448
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:29.180
<v Speaker 6>And so I think it's there if you want to look for it.

449
00:28:30.900 --> 00:28:35.300
<v Speaker 6>The problem is whether or not people are looking for it

450
00:28:35.300 --> 00:28:37.080
<v Speaker 6>and the fact that there's still an abundance

451
00:28:37.100 --> 00:28:39.780
<v Speaker 6>of, you know, influencer types

452
00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:42.600
<v Speaker 6>who present very curated feeds

453
00:28:42.600 --> 00:28:46.460
<v Speaker 6>in very same-ish colours...colours...palettes.

454
00:28:48.500 --> 00:28:51.080
<v Speaker 6>And...I mean, look, to be honest, it's not my cup of tea.

455
00:28:51.220 --> 00:28:53.400
<v Speaker 6>Just watching someone on a beach...

456
00:28:53.400 --> 00:28:56.500
<v Speaker 6>I mean, I don't want to be too deriding about those accounts,

457
00:28:56.720 --> 00:28:59.360
<v Speaker 6>but I don't really see what people get out of them,

458
00:28:59.420 --> 00:29:01.420
<v Speaker 6>but obviously some people do get something out of them.

459
00:29:02.360 --> 00:29:05.000
<v Speaker 6>I think that that diversity is there,

460
00:29:05.060 --> 00:29:05.880
<v Speaker 6>but the problem is,

461
00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:08.180
<v Speaker 6>now that diversity has also become saleable,

462
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:10.820
<v Speaker 6>so capitalism has cottoned on to the fact

463
00:29:10.820 --> 00:29:13.060
<v Speaker 6>that people want diversity in their feeds,

464
00:29:13.180 --> 00:29:15.720
<v Speaker 6>and they want diversity in their brands

465
00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:17.400
<v Speaker 6>and in the people that they buy things from.

466
00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:22.700
<v Speaker 6>And so, you know, it's like pink-washing advertising

467
00:29:22.700 --> 00:29:24.240
<v Speaker 6>or feminist-washing advertising

468
00:29:24.880 --> 00:29:28.580
<v Speaker 6>or, you know, a brand that is actually not good for women

469
00:29:29.640 --> 00:29:31.220
<v Speaker 6>feigning being good for women

470
00:29:31.220 --> 00:29:32.580
<v Speaker 6>because it has a diverse model

471
00:29:32.580 --> 00:29:34.740
<v Speaker 6>on the cover of whatever it is that it's selling.

472
00:29:34.740 --> 00:29:37.420
<v Speaker 6>So I feel like in some ways it's become...

473
00:29:37.420 --> 00:29:40.100
<v Speaker 6>The world has become more progressive, absolutely,

474
00:29:40.240 --> 00:29:41.580
<v Speaker 6>and that is something to celebrate,

475
00:29:42.180 --> 00:29:44.320
<v Speaker 6>but there are a lot of insidious ways

476
00:29:44.320 --> 00:29:47.260
<v Speaker 6>in which regressive mechanisms in the world

477
00:29:47.260 --> 00:29:48.900
<v Speaker 6>want to glob onto that,

478
00:29:49.040 --> 00:29:51.780
<v Speaker 6>and being able to sort of spot the difference, I think,

479
00:29:51.780 --> 00:29:52.500
<v Speaker 6>is the trick now.

480
00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:55.140
<v Tory Shepherd>Yeah, beautifully put.

481
00:29:55.320 --> 00:29:57.620
<v Tory Shepherd>One of my favourite examples of pink-washing

482
00:29:57.620 --> 00:29:58.940
<v Tory Shepherd>was a company who...

483
00:29:59.560 --> 00:30:03.520
<v Tory Shepherd>They sold fabrics and they made all of their pink fabrics

484
00:30:03.520 --> 00:30:04.720
<v Tory Shepherd>for, you know, breast cancer,

485
00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:05.440
<v Tory Shepherd>and they made, like, a dollar a day or whatever,

486
00:30:05.560 --> 00:30:07.080
<v Tory Shepherd>a dollar more expensive,

487
00:30:07.300 --> 00:30:09.440
<v Tory Shepherd>and then advertised that for every metre they sold

488
00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:11.400
<v Tory Shepherd>they would donate a dollar to breast cancer.

489
00:30:12.780 --> 00:30:16.540
<v Speaker 3>I think one of my most recent favourites

490
00:30:16.540 --> 00:30:17.940
<v Speaker 3>would have to be the...

491
00:30:19.720 --> 00:30:21.980
<v Speaker 3>I think you talked about it, Clementine,

492
00:30:21.980 --> 00:30:27.620
<v Speaker 3>was the oil which was marketed for tightening women's vulvas.

493
00:30:28.820 --> 00:30:29.640
<v Speaker 3>Oh, yeah.

494
00:30:30.260 --> 00:30:32.120
<v Speaker 3>Mecca was selling... Was that loose?

495
00:30:32.120 --> 00:30:34.420
<v Speaker 6>Mecca was selling an oil...

496
00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:37.260
<v Speaker 6>No, Mecca, the make-up company here,

497
00:30:37.320 --> 00:30:39.060
<v Speaker 6>which actually I buy a lot of products from,

498
00:30:39.100 --> 00:30:40.580
<v Speaker 6>so I'm part of the problem.

499
00:30:41.580 --> 00:30:44.460
<v Speaker 6>They were advertising an oil that, you know,

500
00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:47.420
<v Speaker 6>exactly as the good doctor said,

501
00:30:47.900 --> 00:30:50.280
<v Speaker 6>was supposed to freshen up our downstairs.

502
00:30:50.840 --> 00:30:51.520
<v Speaker 6>Oh, my God.

503
00:30:51.920 --> 00:30:54.060
<v Speaker 6>So that's... Yeah, all of that kind of stuff...

504
00:30:54.060 --> 00:30:54.960
<v Speaker 6>Did they call it labby oil?

505
00:30:55.340 --> 00:30:58.280
<v Speaker 3>Oh, God, I can't even remember.

506
00:30:58.460 --> 00:30:59.520
<v Tory Shepherd>I just feel like...

507
00:30:59.520 --> 00:31:01.360
<v Tory Shepherd>We have to remember at the end of the day

508
00:31:01.360 --> 00:31:04.140
<v Speaker 6>that all of these things will be...

509
00:31:04.140 --> 00:31:04.700
<v Speaker 6>You know, it's like there were a lot of things

510
00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:08.540
<v Speaker 6>that were a lot of good posts and TikTok videos made

511
00:31:08.540 --> 00:31:11.720
<v Speaker 6>during Pride Month about being wary of corporations

512
00:31:11.720 --> 00:31:16.140
<v Speaker 6>that celebrate diversity and celebrate, you know, queerness

513
00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:18.280
<v Speaker 6>only in one month of the year

514
00:31:18.280 --> 00:31:20.760
<v Speaker 6>and then go back to business as usual.

515
00:31:21.480 --> 00:31:25.960
<v Speaker 6>In some ways, it's really, really hard to kind of challenge...

516
00:31:25.960 --> 00:31:27.980
<v Speaker 6>I mean, like, capitalism and patriarchy

517
00:31:27.980 --> 00:31:31.840
<v Speaker 6>is so deeply embedded in the structure of the way that we live now

518
00:31:31.840 --> 00:31:33.900
<v Speaker 6>and we can talk all we want about

519
00:31:33.900 --> 00:31:36.840
<v Speaker 6>how progress comes from dismantling these things,

520
00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:38.800
<v Speaker 6>but, I mean, that's a big project

521
00:31:38.800 --> 00:31:41.580
<v Speaker 6>and it's something that I know that a lot of us,

522
00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:43.300
<v Speaker 6>everyone on stage is working towards,

523
00:31:43.420 --> 00:31:46.720
<v Speaker 6>but we don't have the answers and it probably, you know,

524
00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:49.500
<v Speaker 6>as much of a downer kind of comment as this might be,

525
00:31:49.540 --> 00:31:50.260
<v Speaker 6>I think it's also accurate,

526
00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:52.500
<v Speaker 6>it's not something we're going to see in our lifetimes.

527
00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:55.400
<v Speaker 6>It comes back to that old saying of, you know,

528
00:31:55.420 --> 00:31:57.040
<v Speaker 6>we're planting seeds in a forest.

529
00:31:57.420 --> 00:32:00.940
<v Speaker 6>We're planting seeds for trees to grow into a forest

530
00:32:00.940 --> 00:32:01.820
<v Speaker 6>that we may never sit in.

531
00:32:02.080 --> 00:32:02.500
<v Speaker 6>And...

532
00:32:03.900 --> 00:32:04.860
<v Speaker 6>You know, that's...

533
00:32:04.860 --> 00:32:06.900
<v Speaker 6>There's something really beautiful in that as well,

534
00:32:07.020 --> 00:32:09.800
<v Speaker 6>that you do it anyway even if you can't benefit from it.

535
00:32:09.860 --> 00:32:13.480
<v Speaker 6>But it is demoralising on the days when you're being bombarded by threats

536
00:32:13.480 --> 00:32:14.180
<v Speaker 6>or you're being...

537
00:32:14.180 --> 00:32:16.860
<v Speaker 6>You feel like you're sort of pushing the proverbial uphill

538
00:32:17.500 --> 00:32:20.300
<v Speaker 6>to see just how insidious it all is

539
00:32:20.300 --> 00:32:25.060
<v Speaker 6>and how difficult it seems to be to make a difference anywhere.

540
00:32:26.200 --> 00:32:27.760
<v Tory Shepherd>OK, Clem, that was a total downer.

541
00:32:27.760 --> 00:32:28.920
<v Tory Shepherd>But you had earlier said

542
00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:31.540
<v Tory Shepherd>that we're in a better place than we were 10 years ago.

543
00:32:31.640 --> 00:32:32.820
<v Tory Shepherd>OK, so you're balancing...

544
00:32:32.820 --> 00:32:33.760
<v Tory Shepherd>We are in a better place.

545
00:32:33.760 --> 00:32:34.980
<v Speaker 6>We are in a better place.

546
00:32:35.180 --> 00:32:36.740
<v Speaker 6>We are moving slowly forward.

547
00:32:38.920 --> 00:32:41.520
<v Tory Shepherd>Cam, how are we going with neurodiversity online,

548
00:32:41.640 --> 00:32:45.520
<v Tory Shepherd>how that's presented, how the stereotypes are working?

549
00:32:46.360 --> 00:32:46.920
<v Tory Shepherd>Mm.

550
00:32:47.260 --> 00:32:50.120
<v Tory Shepherd>And is it more...

551
00:32:50.120 --> 00:32:53.660
<v Tory Shepherd>How does being autistic affect that experience?

552
00:32:55.700 --> 00:32:58.760
<v Speaker 5>I probably can't speak to mainstream places

553
00:32:59.300 --> 00:33:00.840
<v Speaker 5>as much as I should be able to.

554
00:33:03.760 --> 00:33:07.340
<v Speaker 5>But social media and online spaces have been fantastic

555
00:33:07.340 --> 00:33:10.880
<v Speaker 5>for neurodiverse people, especially autistic people,

556
00:33:11.080 --> 00:33:14.800
<v Speaker 5>because so many of us can't communicate and access community

557
00:33:14.800 --> 00:33:18.280
<v Speaker 5>and just see other people like us

558
00:33:19.020 --> 00:33:22.900
<v Speaker 5>in the ways that non-autistic people take for granted.

559
00:33:23.360 --> 00:33:24.060
<v Speaker 5>Um...

560
00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:25.660
<v Speaker 5>And...

561
00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:31.940
<v Speaker 5>..we've, over the last 20 years, formed not only a lot of online communities

562
00:33:31.940 --> 00:33:35.980
<v Speaker 5>and a sense of communal identity that just wasn't possible before,

563
00:33:37.040 --> 00:33:39.280
<v Speaker 5>but have also used these spaces

564
00:33:39.940 --> 00:33:43.760
<v Speaker 5>to increase understanding about what autism is

565
00:33:43.760 --> 00:33:45.660
<v Speaker 5>and to advocate for ourselves.

566
00:33:45.940 --> 00:33:48.360
<v Speaker 5>And that's actually had a significant impact

567
00:33:48.360 --> 00:33:50.960
<v Speaker 5>on how clinicians see autism.

568
00:33:51.240 --> 00:33:54.800
<v Speaker 5>There are some downsides to that as well,

569
00:33:56.140 --> 00:33:58.980
<v Speaker 5>because we often see ourselves misrepresented

570
00:33:58.980 --> 00:34:01.920
<v Speaker 5>or sort of along the lines of,

571
00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:02.680
<v Speaker 5>you know, the lines of pinkwashing,

572
00:34:02.760 --> 00:34:04.520
<v Speaker 5>you get this sort of faux diversity

573
00:34:04.520 --> 00:34:09.040
<v Speaker 5>of the white autistic man who doesn't get social things

574
00:34:09.040 --> 00:34:11.520
<v Speaker 5>but is a genius showing up in more places now

575
00:34:11.520 --> 00:34:13.900
<v Speaker 5>as autistic representation.

576
00:34:14.620 --> 00:34:17.920
<v Speaker 5>And I realise, as I sit here, as a white autistic man

577
00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:20.300
<v Speaker 5>who's often accidentally rude to people.

578
00:34:21.500 --> 00:34:22.060
<v Speaker 5>Um...

579
00:34:23.940 --> 00:34:27.900
<v Speaker 5>So the downside is that, I think, in mainstream spaces,

580
00:34:27.940 --> 00:34:30.860
<v Speaker 5>that diversity is still lacking.

581
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:36.140
<v Speaker 5>But overall, I would say it's just been such an amazing positive

582
00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:40.140
<v Speaker 5>for autistic people to have access to others like us

583
00:34:40.140 --> 00:34:43.200
<v Speaker 5>after being isolated for so long,

584
00:34:43.260 --> 00:34:48.660
<v Speaker 5>because isolation has historically been such a difficult thing,

585
00:34:48.760 --> 00:34:50.040
<v Speaker 5>not just for autistic people,

586
00:34:50.180 --> 00:34:52.900
<v Speaker 5>but for a lot of disabled people

587
00:34:52.900 --> 00:34:55.840
<v Speaker 5>who've been assumed to be incapable

588
00:34:55.840 --> 00:34:59.300
<v Speaker 5>of forming good, positive relationships,

589
00:34:59.440 --> 00:35:00.420
<v Speaker 5>um...

590
00:35:00.420 --> 00:35:04.420
<v Speaker 5>and sometimes have been kept away from other people like them

591
00:35:04.420 --> 00:35:07.660
<v Speaker 5>for fear that they'd start being happy with who they are.

592
00:35:08.580 --> 00:35:09.180
<v Speaker 5>So...

593
00:35:09.180 --> 00:35:11.700
<v Tory Shepherd>Oh, instead of eternally fighting the unchangeable.

594
00:35:11.780 --> 00:35:12.380
<v Tory Shepherd>Yeah.

595
00:35:12.900 --> 00:35:13.500
<v Speaker 5>Um...

596
00:35:13.500 --> 00:35:15.700
<v Speaker 5>You know, that ableism is still there.

597
00:35:15.820 --> 00:35:17.420
<v Speaker 5>If you don't hate your disability,

598
00:35:18.240 --> 00:35:18.840
<v Speaker 5>um...

599
00:35:19.420 --> 00:35:20.860
<v Speaker 5>you're somehow doing it wrong.

600
00:35:21.420 --> 00:35:22.020
<v Speaker 5>Um...

601
00:35:22.020 --> 00:35:24.660
<v Speaker 5>So the online community has given us all access

602
00:35:24.660 --> 00:35:26.380
<v Speaker 5>to, um...

603
00:35:26.380 --> 00:35:28.560
<v Speaker 5>other people who go,

604
00:35:28.640 --> 00:35:29.120
<v Speaker 5>no, it's OK.

605
00:35:29.120 --> 00:35:31.380
<v Speaker 5>We are like you as well,

606
00:35:31.540 --> 00:35:34.220
<v Speaker 5>and we can find these ways to, um...

607
00:35:34.220 --> 00:35:35.460
<v Speaker 5>to live better lives.

608
00:35:35.780 --> 00:35:36.200
<v Speaker 5>Um...

609
00:35:36.200 --> 00:35:39.860
<v Speaker 5>My current research looks at autistic communities online,

610
00:35:40.020 --> 00:35:43.620
<v Speaker 5>and so much of it is just sharing this sense of community,

611
00:35:44.600 --> 00:35:46.640
<v Speaker 5>um...tips of how to navigate the world

612
00:35:46.640 --> 00:35:48.200
<v Speaker 5>when it's not designed for you

613
00:35:48.200 --> 00:35:50.620
<v Speaker 5>and support for each other.

614
00:35:51.040 --> 00:35:51.120
<v Speaker 5>Um...

615
00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:54.120
<v Speaker 5>And that in itself breaks down so many stereotypes

616
00:35:54.720 --> 00:35:58.120
<v Speaker 5>about autistics as unemotional and unempathetic,

617
00:35:58.120 --> 00:36:01.020
<v Speaker 5>because there's so much of that in these spaces,

618
00:36:01.140 --> 00:36:04.180
<v Speaker 5>and I think that's unspeakably valuable.

619
00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:07.780
<v Tory Shepherd>I feel like it needs to move outside of those spaces, because...

620
00:36:07.780 --> 00:36:08.380
<v Tory Shepherd>That would be great.

621
00:36:09.180 --> 00:36:10.860
<v Tory Shepherd>Well, one of the... How do you feel about this?

622
00:36:10.920 --> 00:36:12.340
<v Tory Shepherd>One of the things I've seen a bit recently,

623
00:36:13.080 --> 00:36:15.680
<v Tory Shepherd>um...you know, as people get more concerned about hacking and so on,

624
00:36:15.780 --> 00:36:17.240
<v Tory Shepherd>is, uh...

625
00:36:17.240 --> 00:36:19.520
<v Tory Shepherd>companies, I guess, being quite performative

626
00:36:19.520 --> 00:36:22.000
<v Tory Shepherd>in looking for neurodiverse people

627
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:25.200
<v Tory Shepherd>in order to, um...you know, go through code,

628
00:36:25.380 --> 00:36:27.200
<v Tory Shepherd>track down anomalies and all that sort of thing.

629
00:36:28.100 --> 00:36:30.040
<v Tory Shepherd>Which seems like one of those things on the surface

630
00:36:30.040 --> 00:36:31.260
<v Tory Shepherd>that is, like, that's...

631
00:36:32.240 --> 00:36:35.580
<v Tory Shepherd>You know, it's saying neurodiversity is great,

632
00:36:35.660 --> 00:36:37.460
<v Tory Shepherd>but how do you actually feel about it?

633
00:36:37.700 --> 00:36:38.080
<v Speaker 5>Um...

634
00:36:38.900 --> 00:36:42.360
<v Speaker 5>I mean, it does oversimplify neurodiverse people,

635
00:36:42.460 --> 00:36:44.240
<v Speaker 5>because I'm not going to decode anything.

636
00:36:44.740 --> 00:36:46.040
<v Speaker 5>But, um...

637
00:36:46.040 --> 00:36:48.540
<v Speaker 5>It's not wrong to say

638
00:36:48.540 --> 00:36:51.440
<v Speaker 5>that a lot of autistic people are great at systems thinking,

639
00:36:51.580 --> 00:36:52.960
<v Speaker 5>so, I mean...

640
00:36:54.120 --> 00:36:57.060
<v Speaker 5>That's one of those issues that's sort of a catch-22.

641
00:36:57.860 --> 00:37:01.120
<v Speaker 5>Um...it does oversimplify the abilities of neurodiverse people.

642
00:37:01.260 --> 00:37:04.540
<v Speaker 5>But also, it's true that a lot of us have these abilities to offer,

643
00:37:04.720 --> 00:37:08.360
<v Speaker 5>and it's good to see that, I guess, moving in a positive direction,

644
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:11.280
<v Speaker 5>even if it's imperfect at present.

645
00:37:11.900 --> 00:37:13.940
<v Tory Shepherd>Well, the beautiful thing about talking about this

646
00:37:13.940 --> 00:37:14.940
<v Tory Shepherd>instead of tweeting about it

647
00:37:14.940 --> 00:37:17.900
<v Tory Shepherd>is that you can have that nuance and see with those two different ideas.

648
00:37:18.060 --> 00:37:18.260
<v Tory Shepherd>Absolutely.

649
00:37:18.580 --> 00:37:21.600
<v Tory Shepherd>And I want to ask a sort of, you know,

650
00:37:21.620 --> 00:37:25.340
<v Tory Shepherd>similarly structured question to you, Megan, about...

651
00:37:25.340 --> 00:37:26.760
<v Tory Shepherd>Well, let's talk about the word fat.

652
00:37:27.200 --> 00:37:27.780
<v Tory Shepherd>For example.

653
00:37:30.160 --> 00:37:31.200
<v Tory Shepherd>And...fat shaming,

654
00:37:32.200 --> 00:37:35.180
<v Tory Shepherd>but talking about fat as in, you know,

655
00:37:35.180 --> 00:37:38.380
<v Tory Shepherd>BMI, waist circumference increase in comorbidities,

656
00:37:38.380 --> 00:37:39.200
<v Tory Shepherd>that sort of stuff,

657
00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:41.560
<v Tory Shepherd>is that another place where we're still working out

658
00:37:41.560 --> 00:37:45.720
<v Tory Shepherd>what the balance is between being able to talk about obesity and overweight

659
00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:48.160
<v Tory Shepherd>without fat shaming?

660
00:37:48.180 --> 00:37:51.440
<v Tory Shepherd>I mean, that feels like a very difficult path to navigate.

661
00:37:51.980 --> 00:37:54.920
<v Speaker 3>It's such a fraught area, I find.

662
00:37:55.020 --> 00:37:56.940
<v Speaker 3>And again, working in the community,

663
00:37:57.200 --> 00:38:00.120
<v Speaker 3>you know, this idea of obesity is often resisted

664
00:38:00.120 --> 00:38:01.660
<v Speaker 3>because it is a very clinical term,

665
00:38:01.720 --> 00:38:04.880
<v Speaker 3>and it's, of course, it's such a stigmatised, loaded term.

666
00:38:05.240 --> 00:38:08.120
<v Speaker 3>And within the community imagination,

667
00:38:08.260 --> 00:38:11.040
<v Speaker 3>this idea that fat equals bad

668
00:38:11.040 --> 00:38:14.440
<v Speaker 3>and that if you're fat, then you're not healthy.

669
00:38:15.040 --> 00:38:16.540
<v Speaker 3>And, of course, online,

670
00:38:16.720 --> 00:38:20.840
<v Speaker 3>a lot of the fat activists and body positivity movements

671
00:38:20.840 --> 00:38:24.220
<v Speaker 3>and Health At Every Size have been pushing back against that.

672
00:38:24.280 --> 00:38:26.780
<v Speaker 3>So that's been a really productive online space.

673
00:38:27.200 --> 00:38:30.820
<v Speaker 3>But the people that I work with

674
00:38:31.380 --> 00:38:34.220
<v Speaker 3>who might be identified clinically as obese

675
00:38:34.220 --> 00:38:35.620
<v Speaker 3>don't use that word obese.

676
00:38:35.740 --> 00:38:38.020
<v Speaker 3>They would much prefer to use the word fat.

677
00:38:38.280 --> 00:38:40.240
<v Speaker 3>And again, it's part of that reclamation

678
00:38:40.240 --> 00:38:44.040
<v Speaker 3>because they will invest a whole lot of different meanings

679
00:38:44.040 --> 00:38:47.600
<v Speaker 3>into what fatness affords them

680
00:38:47.600 --> 00:38:50.240
<v Speaker 3>to counter a lot of that stigmatising

681
00:38:51.140 --> 00:38:53.000
<v Speaker 3>which happens in the community.

682
00:38:53.440 --> 00:38:56.300
<v Speaker 3>And so a lot of the work I do is with people

683
00:38:56.300 --> 00:38:59.140
<v Speaker 3>who are targeted for obesity interventions.

684
00:39:01.020 --> 00:39:05.280
<v Speaker 3>And so a way of destigmatising themselves,

685
00:39:05.840 --> 00:39:07.240
<v Speaker 3>their community, their families,

686
00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:09.300
<v Speaker 3>is that they'll talk about the ways

687
00:39:09.300 --> 00:39:13.440
<v Speaker 3>in which fat actually can be productive, in a sense,

688
00:39:13.580 --> 00:39:18.840
<v Speaker 3>in that if you're very low with your money for a fortnight

689
00:39:18.840 --> 00:39:20.980
<v Speaker 3>and you can't afford to eat,

690
00:39:21.040 --> 00:39:22.960
<v Speaker 3>if you've got a little bit of extra weight on you,

691
00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:25.300
<v Speaker 3>it can help you get through to the next payout.

692
00:39:25.380 --> 00:39:28.120
<v Speaker 3>And it's certainly something I've seen

693
00:39:28.120 --> 00:39:32.120
<v Speaker 3>my other favourite bad feminist talk about, Roxane Gay,

694
00:39:32.300 --> 00:39:33.460
<v Speaker 3>in her work Hunger.

695
00:39:34.500 --> 00:39:37.320
<v Speaker 3>You know, she's talked about, you know,

696
00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:41.340
<v Speaker 3>pushing back against the, you know,

697
00:39:41.340 --> 00:39:43.200
<v Speaker 3>the ways in which obesity is measured

698
00:39:43.200 --> 00:39:47.980
<v Speaker 3>through the clinical discourse of BMI and so forth

699
00:39:47.980 --> 00:39:51.080
<v Speaker 3>and the moral judgements which come with people

700
00:39:51.080 --> 00:39:53.320
<v Speaker 3>who are identified as obese.

701
00:39:54.180 --> 00:39:55.360
<v Speaker 3>But again, you know,

702
00:39:55.380 --> 00:39:56.600
<v Speaker 3>I think she's part of that contradiction.

703
00:39:56.940 --> 00:40:00.240
<v Speaker 3>You know, a woman who I think she has said

704
00:40:00.240 --> 00:40:03.080
<v Speaker 3>that she has betrayed the feminist movement in a sense.

705
00:40:03.220 --> 00:40:05.100
<v Speaker 3>She really grapples with this contradiction

706
00:40:05.100 --> 00:40:07.420
<v Speaker 3>and other feminists have also written about this,

707
00:40:07.540 --> 00:40:12.820
<v Speaker 3>that they've gone on diets or they've had weight reduction.

708
00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:18.620
<v Speaker 3>Roxane Gay has had surgery to reduce her weight.

709
00:40:18.740 --> 00:40:22.720
<v Speaker 3>So it's a contradiction, I think,

710
00:40:22.740 --> 00:40:24.980
<v Speaker 3>which many of us would sit with.

711
00:40:24.980 --> 00:40:25.540
<v Speaker 3>But I think, you know,

712
00:40:25.540 --> 00:40:29.300
<v Speaker 3>it's never as easy as just going on a diet and losing weight.

713
00:40:30.080 --> 00:40:32.580
<v Speaker 3>It's a complicated issue.

714
00:40:32.920 --> 00:40:34.660
<v Tory Shepherd>It is a complicated issue, as is the...

715
00:40:34.660 --> 00:40:35.780
<v Tory Shepherd>Can I say something on that? Yeah, go.

716
00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:37.480
<v Speaker 6>Go, Kate.

717
00:40:37.520 --> 00:40:38.780
<v Speaker 6>It's really interesting.

718
00:40:39.280 --> 00:40:40.240
<v Speaker 6>Thanks, Megan.

719
00:40:40.280 --> 00:40:43.320
<v Speaker 6>That really spoke to me because I...

720
00:40:43.320 --> 00:40:45.180
<v Speaker 6>It's not something I talk about at all,

721
00:40:45.240 --> 00:40:47.380
<v Speaker 6>but since giving birth to my son,

722
00:40:48.360 --> 00:40:50.520
<v Speaker 6>I've lost quite a bit of weight

723
00:40:50.520 --> 00:40:53.120
<v Speaker 6>and it's a very fraught thing to talk about,

724
00:40:53.180 --> 00:40:54.720
<v Speaker 6>even in your personal life,

725
00:40:54.980 --> 00:40:57.220
<v Speaker 6>particularly when you have a history of eating disorders

726
00:40:57.220 --> 00:40:58.600
<v Speaker 6>and disordered eating.

727
00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:01.560
<v Speaker 6>And I'm aware of the responsibility that I have

728
00:41:01.560 --> 00:41:04.240
<v Speaker 6>with the platform that I have to not kind of,

729
00:41:04.240 --> 00:41:05.900
<v Speaker 6>I guess, celebrate that.

730
00:41:07.120 --> 00:41:10.800
<v Speaker 6>One of the things that I have found really interesting

731
00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:15.580
<v Speaker 6>about the outcome of that is that, you know,

732
00:41:15.600 --> 00:41:17.440
<v Speaker 6>previously with trolls and with men

733
00:41:17.440 --> 00:41:19.100
<v Speaker 6>who would write really abusive things to me,

734
00:41:19.140 --> 00:41:21.080
<v Speaker 6>they would always focus on the way that I looked

735
00:41:21.080 --> 00:41:24.540
<v Speaker 6>and they would always just dismiss my opinion as,

736
00:41:24.980 --> 00:41:26.360
<v Speaker 6>you know, I'm just a little bit fat and ugly.

737
00:41:26.520 --> 00:41:27.220
<v Speaker 2>I'm just a little bit fat and ugly.

738
00:41:28.020 --> 00:41:31.740
<v Speaker 6>And I'm not really bothered by those personal attacks

739
00:41:31.740 --> 00:41:33.600
<v Speaker 6>because at some point you've heard it all,

740
00:41:33.800 --> 00:41:35.300
<v Speaker 6>but you can't hear...

741
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:38.680
<v Speaker 6>There's only so many times you can be called a fat bitch

742
00:41:38.680 --> 00:41:41.200
<v Speaker 6>before you're like, well, OK, I guess I'm a fat bitch, then.

743
00:41:41.580 --> 00:41:41.980
<v Speaker 6>Next.

744
00:41:43.960 --> 00:41:47.860
<v Speaker 6>But I have noticed that now they have to find other things

745
00:41:47.860 --> 00:41:50.000
<v Speaker 6>to accuse me of, so now they call me crazy,

746
00:41:50.560 --> 00:41:52.000
<v Speaker 6>which, again, fine, whatever.

747
00:41:52.900 --> 00:41:54.880
<v Speaker 6>They call me crazy or, as a classic,

748
00:41:54.980 --> 00:41:57.760
<v Speaker 6>man-hater, I'm just angry because I can't get a boyfriend.

749
00:41:58.360 --> 00:42:01.640
<v Speaker 6>It's funny, if only it were that simple to explain it.

750
00:42:03.140 --> 00:42:05.820
<v Speaker 6>So there's something really fraught in there as well

751
00:42:05.820 --> 00:42:09.200
<v Speaker 6>that you have these political ideas as a feminist

752
00:42:09.200 --> 00:42:12.360
<v Speaker 6>and you have an understanding of how the diet industry is toxic

753
00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:14.300
<v Speaker 6>and how it works to entrap us all,

754
00:42:14.560 --> 00:42:16.760
<v Speaker 6>and yet at the same time, for me personally,

755
00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:20.800
<v Speaker 6>it has removed one thing that made my day

756
00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:22.700
<v Speaker 6>just a little bit more toxic before.

757
00:42:23.300 --> 00:42:23.860
<v Speaker 6>And...

758
00:42:25.080 --> 00:42:25.880
<v Speaker 6>And I...

759
00:42:26.540 --> 00:42:27.700
<v Speaker 6>I enjoy that.

760
00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:30.540
<v Speaker 6>And that's a weird feeling to sit with as well,

761
00:42:30.640 --> 00:42:33.900
<v Speaker 6>that, you know, by playing into...

762
00:42:33.900 --> 00:42:36.300
<v Speaker 6>It is playing into the diet industry in some respects

763
00:42:36.980 --> 00:42:41.120
<v Speaker 6>to say, well, this makes me more acceptable to trolls.

764
00:42:42.160 --> 00:42:44.380
<v Speaker 6>The fact that they now can't...

765
00:42:45.360 --> 00:42:47.460
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, like, I don't know, it's a weird one.

766
00:42:47.520 --> 00:42:48.540
<v Speaker 6>I don't have an answer for it,

767
00:42:48.600 --> 00:42:51.400
<v Speaker 6>but it's just a perspective that I felt like sharing.

768
00:42:51.620 --> 00:42:53.140
<v Tory Shepherd>No, that was really interesting, Clare.

769
00:42:53.140 --> 00:42:55.440
<v Tory Shepherd>And I was thinking, you know, surely it's only people

770
00:42:55.440 --> 00:42:58.260
<v Tory Shepherd>who aren't feminists who would talk about good and bad feminists,

771
00:42:58.360 --> 00:43:00.840
<v Tory Shepherd>you know, the people who want to make us all into some sort of,

772
00:43:00.860 --> 00:43:04.300
<v Tory Shepherd>you know, rules-driven sisterhood where we can't deviate at all.

773
00:43:04.660 --> 00:43:06.220
<v Speaker 2>Tori, do you mind if I just add to this?

774
00:43:06.300 --> 00:43:06.940
<v Speaker 2>I would love you to.

775
00:43:07.080 --> 00:43:08.760
<v Speaker 2>Because I think when you sit with audiences

776
00:43:08.760 --> 00:43:10.900
<v Speaker 2>and whoever's watching and streaming afterwards,

777
00:43:11.320 --> 00:43:13.320
<v Speaker 2>I think if there's one thing that we can all do

778
00:43:13.320 --> 00:43:16.460
<v Speaker 2>that's really practical is never talk about anyone's weight loss

779
00:43:16.460 --> 00:43:17.600
<v Speaker 2>or weight gain again.

780
00:43:19.100 --> 00:43:22.000
<v Speaker 2>It's mind-blowingly, breathtakingly beautiful

781
00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:24.020
<v Speaker 2>what's happened in my circle of friends,

782
00:43:24.260 --> 00:43:25.700
<v Speaker 2>where once we would say,

783
00:43:25.800 --> 00:43:28.480
<v Speaker 2>gosh, you know, you've been dieting, you look amazing, you've lost weight,

784
00:43:28.560 --> 00:43:31.020
<v Speaker 2>and then someone else would chime in with their story

785
00:43:31.020 --> 00:43:33.580
<v Speaker 2>and their weight loss and their diets and what have you.

786
00:43:33.700 --> 00:43:36.000
<v Speaker 2>I remember when I...

787
00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:38.280
<v Speaker 2>It's even hard for me to say these words...

788
00:43:38.280 --> 00:43:39.880
<v Speaker 2>..entered a bodybuilding competition

789
00:43:40.340 --> 00:43:43.980
<v Speaker 2>when I was trying to navigate how I felt about my body

790
00:43:43.980 --> 00:43:49.080
<v Speaker 2>and would it make me happier to have that stereotypical sort of bikini body,

791
00:43:49.180 --> 00:43:50.040
<v Speaker 2>that strong body.

792
00:43:51.380 --> 00:43:53.580
<v Speaker 2>When I got up there on stage, of course,

793
00:43:53.600 --> 00:43:57.380
<v Speaker 2>I realised that it just took too much time and energy

794
00:43:57.380 --> 00:43:59.460
<v Speaker 2>for me to have that particular body shape.

795
00:43:59.660 --> 00:44:02.100
<v Speaker 2>But during those 15 weeks of weight loss,

796
00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:06.880
<v Speaker 2>I had dozens of mums come up to me in the school and say,

797
00:44:07.100 --> 00:44:09.340
<v Speaker 2>my goodness, you've lost weight, you look incredible.

798
00:44:09.700 --> 00:44:12.480
<v Speaker 2>And my daughter and my sons were listening to this

799
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:15.240
<v Speaker 2>and next minute they're going, oh, weight loss, right, OK.

800
00:44:15.420 --> 00:44:18.460
<v Speaker 2>We get praised for weight loss. Weight loss is good.

801
00:44:18.660 --> 00:44:20.020
<v Speaker 2>So I think, you know, it's...

802
00:44:20.040 --> 00:44:22.020
<v Speaker 2>If there's just one thing that we can all do today

803
00:44:22.020 --> 00:44:23.780
<v Speaker 2>that will make the world a better place,

804
00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:27.020
<v Speaker 2>it is never comment on anyone's weight loss or weight gain again.

805
00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:28.360
<v Tory Shepherd>Perfect.

806
00:44:33.500 --> 00:44:34.300
<v Tory Shepherd>So I...

807
00:44:34.300 --> 00:44:36.900
<v Tory Shepherd>Whenever people ask me why I don't have kids,

808
00:44:37.000 --> 00:44:39.560
<v Tory Shepherd>I've always said that I lost my uterus in a tragic fishing accident.

809
00:44:39.680 --> 00:44:41.020
<v Tory Shepherd>It makes no sense, but it's funny.

810
00:44:42.300 --> 00:44:46.040
<v Tory Shepherd>But I've often been tempted, if somebody has said you've lost weight,

811
00:44:46.140 --> 00:44:49.040
<v Tory Shepherd>to sort of say, that'll be the cancer, you know.

812
00:44:49.040 --> 00:44:51.860
<v Tory Shepherd>Just to shock people out of that complacency,

813
00:44:51.920 --> 00:44:54.100
<v Tory Shepherd>that they feel that they can comment on that in a way.

814
00:44:54.720 --> 00:44:56.860
<v Tory Shepherd>Don't tell anyone I said that. That's a terrible thing to say.

815
00:44:58.620 --> 00:45:00.400
<v Tory Shepherd>Hey, we're going to go to questions in a second.

816
00:45:00.460 --> 00:45:04.480
<v Tory Shepherd>So we're going to have a microphone set up in the laneway there,

817
00:45:04.620 --> 00:45:06.920
<v Tory Shepherd>so get yourselves together and move towards it.

818
00:45:07.060 --> 00:45:08.860
<v Tory Shepherd>But, Taryn, just sticking with you for a second,

819
00:45:10.420 --> 00:45:14.500
<v Tory Shepherd>you know, the wellness industry is responsible for many, many ills,

820
00:45:14.940 --> 00:45:18.500
<v Tory Shepherd>not least of which is the idea that you can solve things

821
00:45:18.500 --> 00:45:20.160
<v Tory Shepherd>with a hashtag and a picture of a sunset,

822
00:45:20.300 --> 00:45:23.680
<v Tory Shepherd>but also even just the idea, like, just embrace yourself.

823
00:45:23.980 --> 00:45:26.360
<v Tory Shepherd>You know, like, this sort of facile, simplistic idea

824
00:45:26.360 --> 00:45:29.720
<v Tory Shepherd>that it's just...it's something wrong with your head

825
00:45:30.500 --> 00:45:32.240
<v Tory Shepherd>that you think of your body in a certain way.

826
00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:36.800
<v Tory Shepherd>Is there anything that you can...

827
00:45:36.800 --> 00:45:39.980
<v Tory Shepherd>You know, is there a way that you've seen people move

828
00:45:39.980 --> 00:45:44.160
<v Tory Shepherd>to embrace themselves and to be more comfortable with who they are?

829
00:45:44.680 --> 00:45:47.420
<v Speaker 2>Well, it would be remiss of me not to say

830
00:45:47.420 --> 00:45:52.700
<v Speaker 2>to watch the documentary that nearly took my soul from my body, Embrace.

831
00:45:52.700 --> 00:45:53.500
<v Speaker 2>It's on Netflix.

832
00:45:53.740 --> 00:45:57.520
<v Speaker 2>We actually had a global study on the impact of Embrace

833
00:45:57.520 --> 00:46:01.320
<v Speaker 2>that was just conducted by Dr Zali Yeager from Flinders University

834
00:46:01.320 --> 00:46:03.760
<v Speaker 2>and Dr Ivanka Pritchard from...

835
00:46:03.760 --> 00:46:06.580
<v Speaker 2>Sorry, backwards, Victoria University and Flinders University.

836
00:46:07.120 --> 00:46:09.520
<v Speaker 2>And it's just been published in a medical journal,

837
00:46:09.600 --> 00:46:10.820
<v Speaker 2>which we're really proud about.

838
00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:13.700
<v Speaker 2>So start there, open up the conversation.

839
00:46:14.880 --> 00:46:17.400
<v Speaker 2>I just...I just think we've all got to remember

840
00:46:17.420 --> 00:46:20.420
<v Speaker 2>and I know because being a motivational speaker,

841
00:46:20.700 --> 00:46:23.380
<v Speaker 2>I think some people look for the fluffy takeaways.

842
00:46:24.060 --> 00:46:27.220
<v Speaker 2>But truly, I see the penny drop when I say to people,

843
00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:31.700
<v Speaker 2>you've got 29,000 days on the planet if you're really lucky.

844
00:46:31.940 --> 00:46:35.360
<v Speaker 2>And you weren't born into the world hating your body.

845
00:46:35.520 --> 00:46:39.340
<v Speaker 2>This is a learned behaviour and it doesn't make you feel good.

846
00:46:39.520 --> 00:46:43.800
<v Speaker 2>So what are you currently doing or buying into that's not serving you?

847
00:46:43.980 --> 00:46:45.060
<v Speaker 2>Pull back on that.

848
00:46:45.160 --> 00:46:46.920
<v Speaker 2>When we talk about social media,

849
00:46:48.520 --> 00:46:49.360
<v Speaker 2>unfollow people.

850
00:46:49.660 --> 00:46:53.440
<v Speaker 2>You know, my social media feed is just a bunch of awesome people

851
00:46:53.440 --> 00:46:55.580
<v Speaker 2>that make me go, oh, gosh, I'd better go do something

852
00:46:55.580 --> 00:46:57.200
<v Speaker 2>really meaningful in the world.

853
00:46:58.420 --> 00:46:59.020
<v Speaker 2>Unfollow.

854
00:46:59.560 --> 00:47:01.160
<v Speaker 2>Turn off your comments.

855
00:47:01.400 --> 00:47:04.500
<v Speaker 2>I guess just have a sense of responsibility yourself.

856
00:47:05.080 --> 00:47:08.900
<v Speaker 2>And there's a great Steve Furtick quote that says,

857
00:47:09.100 --> 00:47:12.280
<v Speaker 2>we so often compare our behind the scenes

858
00:47:12.280 --> 00:47:14.260
<v Speaker 2>with everyone else's highlight reel.

859
00:47:15.420 --> 00:47:17.540
<v Speaker 2>And I actually brought a photo.

860
00:47:17.600 --> 00:47:18.860
<v Speaker 2>I knew this would come up today.

861
00:47:18.920 --> 00:47:20.440
<v Speaker 2>I nearly killed the guys at...

862
00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:22.780
<v Speaker 2>Is there a photo you can put up?

863
00:47:22.860 --> 00:47:23.660
<v Speaker 2>I said, could you just take this?

864
00:47:23.660 --> 00:47:25.040
<v Tory Shepherd>Oh, you're going to reveal your behind the scenes.

865
00:47:25.480 --> 00:47:27.020
<v Speaker 2>I think it's good for all of us.

866
00:47:27.020 --> 00:47:28.640
<v Tory Shepherd>I think it's actually good for our souls.

867
00:47:28.660 --> 00:47:30.640
<v Tory Shepherd>Which actually really echoes what Cam was saying earlier.

868
00:47:30.640 --> 00:47:31.140
<v Tory Shepherd>Oh, yeah, there you go.

869
00:47:31.320 --> 00:47:32.620
<v Tory Shepherd>Show off the imperfect.

870
00:47:32.980 --> 00:47:35.240
<v Speaker 2>Well, when you said that before about five days of dishes,

871
00:47:35.400 --> 00:47:38.140
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, I'm going to give you the dust from under my couch.

872
00:47:42.420 --> 00:47:42.780
<v Speaker 2>Because...

873
00:47:42.780 --> 00:47:45.300
<v Speaker 2>My newish partner at the time found this and he goes,

874
00:47:45.340 --> 00:47:46.840
<v Speaker 2>that could almost have its own currency.

875
00:47:47.120 --> 00:47:48.460
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, I was mortified.

876
00:47:49.160 --> 00:47:52.100
<v Speaker 2>But this was my third liked post in ten years.

877
00:47:52.420 --> 00:47:55.660
<v Speaker 2>You know, it had sort of tens of thousands of comments and posts

878
00:47:55.660 --> 00:47:56.760
<v Speaker 2>and people actually going,

879
00:47:57.300 --> 00:47:59.580
<v Speaker 2>oh, I feel so much better about myself.

880
00:47:59.800 --> 00:48:01.300
<v Speaker 2>And I think that's what we need to do.

881
00:48:01.420 --> 00:48:04.860
<v Speaker 2>We need to lift back the veil, keep it real, share it all,

882
00:48:04.940 --> 00:48:06.560
<v Speaker 2>share the good bits and the bad,

883
00:48:07.300 --> 00:48:09.840
<v Speaker 2>and share our dust bunnies, as that's called.

884
00:48:10.860 --> 00:48:12.760
<v Speaker 2>Does anyone else feel better about seeing this?

885
00:48:14.960 --> 00:48:15.680
<v Speaker 2>Tara from...

886
00:48:15.680 --> 00:48:16.940
<v Speaker 2>I feel like taking a shower.

887
00:48:18.940 --> 00:48:21.280
<v Speaker 2>Tara Brown from 60 Minutes came to my house

888
00:48:21.280 --> 00:48:22.720
<v Speaker 2>to do an interview a couple of years ago.

889
00:48:22.780 --> 00:48:25.160
<v Speaker 2>She goes, I think we need to move the bed.

890
00:48:25.400 --> 00:48:27.080
<v Speaker 2>And that was under my couch.

891
00:48:27.600 --> 00:48:29.020
<v Speaker 2>You should have seen the look she gave me.

892
00:48:29.060 --> 00:48:30.080
<v Speaker 2>Oh, that's when you found it.

893
00:48:30.800 --> 00:48:32.340
<v Speaker 2>No, that was a separate time.

894
00:48:33.200 --> 00:48:34.060
<v Speaker 2>Separate dust bunnies.

895
00:48:34.060 --> 00:48:34.680
<v Speaker 2>I know, guys.

896
00:48:35.020 --> 00:48:35.880
<v Speaker 2>I've got to clean it.

897
00:48:35.880 --> 00:48:36.800
<v Speaker 2>Don't anyone panic.

898
00:48:36.860 --> 00:48:37.740
<v Speaker 2>I've got to clean it now.

899
00:48:39.100 --> 00:48:41.620
<v Tory Shepherd>Megan, everyone, please go and ask questions

900
00:48:41.620 --> 00:48:42.760
<v Tory Shepherd>or, you know, you'll leave it there.

901
00:48:42.760 --> 00:48:44.320
<v Tory Shepherd>We're sitting up here like shags on rocks

902
00:48:44.320 --> 00:48:46.060
<v Tory Shepherd>and make us feel like you're not all that interested.

903
00:48:46.280 --> 00:48:48.500
<v Tory Shepherd>But, Megan, thank you so much.

904
00:48:48.680 --> 00:48:49.220
<v Tory Shepherd>Stay there.

905
00:48:51.740 --> 00:48:53.360
<v Tory Shepherd>What would you suggest

906
00:48:53.360 --> 00:48:57.320
<v Tory Shepherd>in terms of letting people embrace who they are?

907
00:48:57.500 --> 00:48:59.360
<v Tory Shepherd>Is that something that's come up in your research?

908
00:48:59.400 --> 00:49:02.240
<v Tory Shepherd>Is there a way for people to kind of get rid of that?

909
00:49:02.340 --> 00:49:04.480
<v Speaker 3>It makes me think about my students, actually,

910
00:49:04.540 --> 00:49:05.760
<v Speaker 3>that I teach here at the university,

911
00:49:06.960 --> 00:49:08.300
<v Speaker 3>my undergraduate students.

912
00:49:08.380 --> 00:49:11.940
<v Speaker 3>So one of the things which I love

913
00:49:12.760 --> 00:49:13.940
<v Speaker 3>about being a teacher here

914
00:49:13.940 --> 00:49:17.140
<v Speaker 3>is when the penny drops with students,

915
00:49:17.260 --> 00:49:20.780
<v Speaker 3>when we're talking about body image and gender

916
00:49:20.780 --> 00:49:22.700
<v Speaker 3>and gender relations and identity

917
00:49:22.700 --> 00:49:26.200
<v Speaker 3>and words like subjectification and consumption,

918
00:49:26.580 --> 00:49:32.340
<v Speaker 3>when they can actually grasp and understand the skills

919
00:49:32.340 --> 00:49:36.740
<v Speaker 3>to actually unpack what it is they're looking at,

920
00:49:36.780 --> 00:49:40.240
<v Speaker 3>so to step outside and not feel like they're just

921
00:49:40.240 --> 00:49:42.740
<v Speaker 3>this sort of passive body image.

922
00:49:42.760 --> 00:49:43.180
<v Speaker 3>And then they have these ways,

923
00:49:43.180 --> 00:49:46.280
<v Speaker 3>because the ways in which femininity

924
00:49:46.280 --> 00:49:50.880
<v Speaker 3>is positioned so much as a bodily property

925
00:49:50.880 --> 00:49:53.700
<v Speaker 3>and the ways in which we're encouraged

926
00:49:53.700 --> 00:49:56.880
<v Speaker 3>or strongly encouraged

927
00:49:56.880 --> 00:50:02.380
<v Speaker 3>to be improving of our bodies constantly

928
00:50:02.380 --> 00:50:07.380
<v Speaker 3>to adorn them and to modify them

929
00:50:08.760 --> 00:50:10.160
<v Speaker 3>within the constructs

930
00:50:10.160 --> 00:50:12.700
<v Speaker 3>to become thinner and more beautiful.

931
00:50:12.940 --> 00:50:14.720
<v Speaker 3>You know, these are all social constructs.

932
00:50:15.300 --> 00:50:19.580
<v Speaker 3>And once, I think, you realise how the system operates

933
00:50:19.580 --> 00:50:22.740
<v Speaker 3>and what are the wider structures beyond you as an individual

934
00:50:22.740 --> 00:50:24.720
<v Speaker 3>so you don't feel overwhelmed

935
00:50:24.720 --> 00:50:27.760
<v Speaker 3>or always compelled to follow this never-ending promise

936
00:50:27.760 --> 00:50:29.800
<v Speaker 3>because there's always another product

937
00:50:29.800 --> 00:50:33.520
<v Speaker 3>that is going to be sold to you because you're never good enough.

938
00:50:33.560 --> 00:50:35.960
<v Speaker 3>You know, this endless idea of perfection.

939
00:50:36.540 --> 00:50:39.520
<v Speaker 3>Once, I think, I see people realising

940
00:50:39.520 --> 00:50:41.900
<v Speaker 3>how this works within society,

941
00:50:42.580 --> 00:50:45.100
<v Speaker 3>that actually is what's so empowering

942
00:50:45.100 --> 00:50:48.340
<v Speaker 3>because that, I feel, is liberating and that's freedom.

943
00:50:48.600 --> 00:50:51.460
<v Speaker 3>And it doesn't mean that you have to stop wearing make-up

944
00:50:51.460 --> 00:50:54.660
<v Speaker 3>or beautiful glittery shoes and high heels and so forth.

945
00:50:54.780 --> 00:50:59.180
<v Speaker 3>It just means that, therefore, you can, I think, be more playful

946
00:50:59.180 --> 00:51:02.120
<v Speaker 3>and have more agency in how you respond to that

947
00:51:02.120 --> 00:51:05.700
<v Speaker 3>because, of course, we can't change the capitalist system overnight

948
00:51:05.700 --> 00:51:08.140
<v Speaker 3>as much as we would love to.

949
00:51:08.200 --> 00:51:09.500
<v Speaker 3>We can't change patriarchy.

950
00:51:09.520 --> 00:51:11.580
<v Speaker 3>We can't change patriarchy overnight as much as we would love to.

951
00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:14.860
<v Speaker 3>But I think once we realise our positioning within that,

952
00:51:15.120 --> 00:51:19.860
<v Speaker 3>then that allows us to have some liberation and some freedom.

953
00:51:20.500 --> 00:51:23.660
<v Tory Shepherd>I wish we could still use the old blue pill, red pill analogy,

954
00:51:23.800 --> 00:51:26.440
<v Tory Shepherd>but, unfortunately, that got stolen by the men's rights guys.

955
00:51:27.760 --> 00:51:29.900
<v Speaker 4>And we have a question. Thank you.

956
00:51:30.760 --> 00:51:31.200
<v Speaker 4>Hi.

957
00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:36.040
<v Speaker 4>So, I'm coming at this from a purely clinical perspective,

958
00:51:36.140 --> 00:51:38.740
<v Speaker 4>which is very different, I guess, in a social perspective.

959
00:51:38.780 --> 00:51:39.440
<v Speaker 4>So, I'm a doctor.

960
00:51:39.520 --> 00:51:42.220
<v Speaker 4>I work in obstetrics and gynaecology.

961
00:51:42.320 --> 00:51:44.940
<v Speaker 4>And along with a lot of other doctors,

962
00:51:44.980 --> 00:51:50.460
<v Speaker 4>we have huge difficulty in how do we approach the issue of obesity

963
00:51:50.460 --> 00:51:54.300
<v Speaker 4>or whatever you want to call it, you know, in a clinical perspective.

964
00:51:54.380 --> 00:51:57.960
<v Speaker 4>So, for example, counselling our pregnant women

965
00:51:57.960 --> 00:52:01.200
<v Speaker 4>or our postnatal women or our women that are needing surgeries

966
00:52:01.200 --> 00:52:04.960
<v Speaker 4>who do have BMIs in the obese range,

967
00:52:05.340 --> 00:52:07.600
<v Speaker 4>which seriously affect their health,

968
00:52:07.660 --> 00:52:09.500
<v Speaker 4>seriously can affect the health of their baby.

969
00:52:09.520 --> 00:52:14.080
<v Speaker 4>And also can affect the weight of their babies in the future

970
00:52:14.080 --> 00:52:16.880
<v Speaker 4>by being overweight during their pregnancy.

971
00:52:17.040 --> 00:52:22.000
<v Speaker 4>And I've had complaints against me, you know, telling women,

972
00:52:22.700 --> 00:52:24.960
<v Speaker 4>you know, if you can manage not to put on weight

973
00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:27.580
<v Speaker 4>or to lose some weight during your pregnancy or something like that,

974
00:52:27.640 --> 00:52:31.920
<v Speaker 4>about focusing on weight in consultations.

975
00:52:31.920 --> 00:52:36.320
<v Speaker 4>But not talking about that is, I guess,

976
00:52:36.360 --> 00:52:37.840
<v Speaker 4>neglecting my clinical responsibility.

977
00:52:37.880 --> 00:52:38.520
<v Speaker 4>But how...

978
00:52:39.520 --> 00:52:41.480
<v Speaker 4>How do we approach this without offending...

979
00:52:41.480 --> 00:52:41.980
<v Speaker 4>You know, I'm not...

980
00:52:41.980 --> 00:52:43.180
<v Speaker 4>We don't want to offend people.

981
00:52:43.580 --> 00:52:47.100
<v Speaker 4>We, you know, we see a lot of women's bodies and, you know,

982
00:52:47.120 --> 00:52:47.840
<v Speaker 4>I'm in women's health.

983
00:52:47.940 --> 00:52:50.740
<v Speaker 4>I'm a strong advocate for women's health and women.

984
00:52:50.840 --> 00:52:52.100
<v Speaker 4>And I just...

985
00:52:52.100 --> 00:52:56.760
<v Speaker 4>We can't find, you know, really acceptable, constructive ways

986
00:52:56.760 --> 00:52:59.180
<v Speaker 4>of approaching this issue, which is major.

987
00:52:59.640 --> 00:53:03.440
<v Speaker 4>Like, we're adjusting our clinical practices on a daily basis

988
00:53:03.440 --> 00:53:06.160
<v Speaker 4>to accommodate this kind of thing.

989
00:53:06.240 --> 00:53:08.060
<v Speaker 4>And we just don't know how to get that message across

990
00:53:08.060 --> 00:53:09.420
<v Speaker 4>without being offended.

991
00:53:10.460 --> 00:53:11.000
<v Tory Shepherd>And I think that's really, really important.

992
00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:11.040
<v Tory Shepherd>And I think that's really, really important.

993
00:53:11.040 --> 00:53:11.520
<v Tory Shepherd>Thank you.

994
00:53:11.540 --> 00:53:12.060
<v Tory Shepherd>It's a really...

995
00:53:12.060 --> 00:53:13.100
<v Tory Shepherd>It's a really tricky issue.

996
00:53:13.220 --> 00:53:14.860
<v Tory Shepherd>And we sort of slightly touched on it before.

997
00:53:14.980 --> 00:53:18.780
<v Tory Shepherd>But have any of you got an idea about how to, you know...

998
00:53:18.780 --> 00:53:20.520
<v Tory Shepherd>Because it's laden with that moral judgment.

999
00:53:21.160 --> 00:53:23.080
<v Tory Shepherd>Is there a way to remove the moral judgment

1000
00:53:23.080 --> 00:53:23.700
<v Tory Shepherd>and have the health...

1001
00:53:23.700 --> 00:53:25.300
<v Speaker 3>There is some fabulous literature

1002
00:53:25.300 --> 00:53:28.820
<v Speaker 3>which has recently come out on precisely that issue.

1003
00:53:29.100 --> 00:53:31.660
<v Speaker 3>And women who are accessing service

1004
00:53:31.660 --> 00:53:35.680
<v Speaker 3>often say they feel very shamed from those encounters.

1005
00:53:35.900 --> 00:53:36.560
<v Speaker 3>And it's not...

1006
00:53:36.560 --> 00:53:39.500
<v Speaker 3>It's not because this is consciously, purposefully...

1007
00:53:39.520 --> 00:53:41.840
<v Speaker 3>being done, but it's because of the ways

1008
00:53:41.840 --> 00:53:45.740
<v Speaker 3>in which weight is talked about as an individual problem.

1009
00:53:45.900 --> 00:53:49.160
<v Speaker 3>And particularly mothers, you know, in society,

1010
00:53:49.180 --> 00:53:54.260
<v Speaker 3>women continue to be positioned as both the givers of food.

1011
00:53:54.400 --> 00:53:57.740
<v Speaker 3>So we're, you know, we're in control of family food generally.

1012
00:53:58.700 --> 00:54:01.800
<v Speaker 3>So we have a social role and we also have a biological role.

1013
00:54:01.980 --> 00:54:04.880
<v Speaker 3>And so through pregnancy, what women eat,

1014
00:54:04.960 --> 00:54:07.440
<v Speaker 3>they're also being highly surveilled and policed

1015
00:54:07.440 --> 00:54:09.500
<v Speaker 3>around their weight during pregnancy.

1016
00:54:09.520 --> 00:54:13.420
<v Speaker 3>Because there is this idea that fat mothers make fat babies.

1017
00:54:13.720 --> 00:54:16.040
<v Speaker 3>So they sort of get the double whammy there

1018
00:54:16.040 --> 00:54:18.060
<v Speaker 3>from their social and biological roles.

1019
00:54:18.300 --> 00:54:22.880
<v Speaker 3>And women are very sensitive to that type of policing and shaming,

1020
00:54:22.920 --> 00:54:25.780
<v Speaker 3>which is a very individual way of addressing the problem.

1021
00:54:25.980 --> 00:54:29.600
<v Speaker 3>But I think if it can be addressed to say things like,

1022
00:54:30.300 --> 00:54:32.300
<v Speaker 3>rather than, you know, what is it you're eating

1023
00:54:32.300 --> 00:54:35.040
<v Speaker 3>and tracking and increasing that surveillance

1024
00:54:35.040 --> 00:54:36.960
<v Speaker 3>through those pregnancy apps,

1025
00:54:37.560 --> 00:54:39.500
<v Speaker 3>which I think just feeds into...

1026
00:54:39.520 --> 00:54:43.580
<v Speaker 3>the problem is actually to ask simple questions like,

1027
00:54:43.720 --> 00:54:45.120
<v Speaker 3>what's going on in your life?

1028
00:54:45.280 --> 00:54:49.060
<v Speaker 3>Because people are generally, or, you know, I'm generalising here,

1029
00:54:49.160 --> 00:54:52.880
<v Speaker 3>are often overweight or obese in that clinical sense

1030
00:54:52.880 --> 00:54:56.620
<v Speaker 3>because there are things happening in their life.

1031
00:54:56.720 --> 00:54:58.880
<v Speaker 3>It might be, you know, in relation to poverty,

1032
00:54:59.180 --> 00:55:01.260
<v Speaker 3>you know, lack of money, lack of resources.

1033
00:55:02.700 --> 00:55:05.420
<v Speaker 3>COVID has had a huge impact on people's weight,

1034
00:55:05.460 --> 00:55:07.860
<v Speaker 3>isolation, family chaos, domestic violence.

1035
00:55:08.060 --> 00:55:09.500
<v Speaker 3>The list goes on.

1036
00:55:09.520 --> 00:55:14.900
<v Speaker 3>I think we need to address the social structures

1037
00:55:15.580 --> 00:55:21.480
<v Speaker 3>which are very much part of what we're calling the obesity epidemic.

1038
00:55:21.800 --> 00:55:23.360
<v Speaker 3>So take it away from the individual.

1039
00:55:23.400 --> 00:55:24.960
<v Speaker 3>As the individual being responsible

1040
00:55:26.020 --> 00:55:28.260
<v Speaker 3>and having to address that in their lives,

1041
00:55:28.360 --> 00:55:31.180
<v Speaker 3>it's very hard to change your diet or go exercising

1042
00:55:31.180 --> 00:55:33.640
<v Speaker 3>if you live in a neighbourhood which isn't safe

1043
00:55:33.640 --> 00:55:35.900
<v Speaker 3>and you can't walk at night, you're a sole parent,

1044
00:55:35.960 --> 00:55:38.040
<v Speaker 3>you've got five kids, you can't leave them at home.

1045
00:55:38.200 --> 00:55:38.640
<v Speaker 3>You know, these...

1046
00:55:40.820 --> 00:55:43.860
<v Speaker 3>dietary interventions, lifestyle interventions

1047
00:55:43.860 --> 00:55:47.120
<v Speaker 3>haven't worked, but we continue to trot them out.

1048
00:55:47.220 --> 00:55:49.500
<v Speaker 3>We need to look much more wider

1049
00:55:49.500 --> 00:55:52.160
<v Speaker 3>to how we can address these problems and support women

1050
00:55:52.160 --> 00:55:54.260
<v Speaker 3>rather than blame and shame them.

1051
00:55:54.780 --> 00:55:57.080
<v Tory Shepherd>I think there was a study at one point that showed

1052
00:55:58.040 --> 00:56:01.800
<v Tory Shepherd>a direct correlation between the socioeconomic level of a suburb

1053
00:56:01.800 --> 00:56:03.800
<v Tory Shepherd>and how much fast food there would be,

1054
00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:05.940
<v Tory Shepherd>pokies in pubs,

1055
00:56:05.940 --> 00:56:06.740
<v Tory Shepherd>and...

1056
00:56:08.660 --> 00:56:09.440
<v Tory Shepherd>unwalkable spaces.

1057
00:56:09.520 --> 00:56:12.080
<v Tory Shepherd>Or just, you know, places that just weren't pleasant to walk.

1058
00:56:12.200 --> 00:56:13.020
<v Tory Shepherd>So the environment...

1059
00:56:13.020 --> 00:56:14.860
<v Tory Shepherd>It's a bit like what we were talking about before.

1060
00:56:14.920 --> 00:56:17.540
<v Tory Shepherd>The environment is there and that's, you know, what's...

1061
00:56:17.540 --> 00:56:19.620
<v Speaker 3>I think we have to be careful, though,

1062
00:56:19.660 --> 00:56:22.400
<v Speaker 3>that we're not sort of making this direct association

1063
00:56:22.400 --> 00:56:26.280
<v Speaker 3>between low socioeconomic people and overweight

1064
00:56:26.280 --> 00:56:29.000
<v Speaker 3>because it also feeds into another narrative

1065
00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:31.360
<v Speaker 3>that people just are ignorant

1066
00:56:31.360 --> 00:56:33.780
<v Speaker 3>and don't know how to look after themselves or their children,

1067
00:56:33.920 --> 00:56:36.160
<v Speaker 3>which is another part of the blaming and shaming

1068
00:56:36.160 --> 00:56:38.980
<v Speaker 3>because if you look at the stats around obesity,

1069
00:56:39.520 --> 00:56:43.240
<v Speaker 3>you know, middle-class men are also very overweight.

1070
00:56:43.400 --> 00:56:45.280
<v Speaker 3>But how much attention do we give to that,

1071
00:56:45.360 --> 00:56:48.340
<v Speaker 3>to saying, you know, eat less fine cheese and wine?

1072
00:56:48.520 --> 00:56:48.940
<v Tory Shepherd>Yeah.

1073
00:56:49.020 --> 00:56:49.420
<v Tory Shepherd>You know?

1074
00:56:49.520 --> 00:56:50.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

1075
00:56:50.220 --> 00:56:52.060
<v Tory Shepherd>It's Brie and Shiraz, not the Maccas.

1076
00:56:52.220 --> 00:56:56.080
<v Speaker 5>And it's also this centring of weight as the primary health problem

1077
00:56:56.080 --> 00:56:58.120
<v Speaker 5>when there are, as Megan said,

1078
00:56:58.200 --> 00:57:01.280
<v Speaker 5>such a variety of things influencing a person's health,

1079
00:57:01.360 --> 00:57:05.420
<v Speaker 5>but weight is such a visible and normalised representative

1080
00:57:05.420 --> 00:57:07.660
<v Speaker 5>of someone's overall health.

1081
00:57:08.980 --> 00:57:09.500
<v Speaker 6>Can...

1082
00:57:09.520 --> 00:57:10.280
<v Speaker 6>Can I add something, please?

1083
00:57:10.480 --> 00:57:10.620
<v Speaker 6>Yeah.

1084
00:57:11.840 --> 00:57:13.020
<v Speaker 6>I feel like...

1085
00:57:13.020 --> 00:57:15.620
<v Speaker 6>I really appreciate how you just addressed that, Megan.

1086
00:57:15.640 --> 00:57:17.280
<v Speaker 6>I think that the classism around...

1087
00:57:17.280 --> 00:57:21.860
<v Speaker 6>I'm not suggesting that the questioner was consciously being classist,

1088
00:57:21.880 --> 00:57:24.380
<v Speaker 6>but I think that the classism around fat shaming

1089
00:57:24.380 --> 00:57:26.680
<v Speaker 6>is something that everyone needs to be aware of.

1090
00:57:26.780 --> 00:57:30.580
<v Speaker 6>But also, as someone who went through the public health system

1091
00:57:30.580 --> 00:57:32.920
<v Speaker 6>and praise to the Australian public health system,

1092
00:57:33.000 --> 00:57:33.900
<v Speaker 6>we're very lucky to have it,

1093
00:57:34.000 --> 00:57:35.660
<v Speaker 6>and had a vaginal birth

1094
00:57:35.660 --> 00:57:38.300
<v Speaker 6>and suffered, like, a lot of birth trauma from it

1095
00:57:38.300 --> 00:57:39.160
<v Speaker 6>and physical injuries,

1096
00:57:39.520 --> 00:57:41.620
<v Speaker 6>and I think that there's so many things

1097
00:57:41.620 --> 00:57:42.580
<v Speaker 6>that we need to address

1098
00:57:42.580 --> 00:57:47.160
<v Speaker 6>in the process of people becoming parents and giving birth

1099
00:57:47.160 --> 00:57:50.860
<v Speaker 6>that move well beyond what they're eating.

1100
00:57:51.140 --> 00:57:55.380
<v Speaker 6>You know, it's really infuriating to me how, as a society,

1101
00:57:55.640 --> 00:57:59.980
<v Speaker 6>we're more concerned with how people look after they've given birth

1102
00:57:59.980 --> 00:58:03.420
<v Speaker 6>and how we can judge in a visible way

1103
00:58:03.420 --> 00:58:05.040
<v Speaker 6>that is actually not easily assessed.

1104
00:58:05.200 --> 00:58:08.080
<v Speaker 6>Like, no-one can judge someone's health just by looking at them.

1105
00:58:08.180 --> 00:58:09.500
<v Speaker 6>But that we associate...

1106
00:58:09.520 --> 00:58:12.320
<v Speaker 6>We associate their health with how well they fit back into their genes.

1107
00:58:12.480 --> 00:58:15.440
<v Speaker 6>And no-one ever asks people after they've given birth,

1108
00:58:16.040 --> 00:58:17.100
<v Speaker 6>how's everything going?

1109
00:58:17.320 --> 00:58:18.220
<v Speaker 6>How are you feeling?

1110
00:58:18.420 --> 00:58:21.840
<v Speaker 6>Is your uterus still inside your body where it should be?

1111
00:58:21.860 --> 00:58:23.200
<v Speaker 6>Or have you suffered a prolapse?

1112
00:58:23.700 --> 00:58:26.440
<v Speaker 6>You know, the fact that I gave...

1113
00:58:26.440 --> 00:58:28.180
<v Speaker 6>Five weeks after I gave birth,

1114
00:58:28.380 --> 00:58:30.940
<v Speaker 6>I went to the maternal health care nurse and I said...

1115
00:58:30.940 --> 00:58:32.600
<v Speaker 6>You know, she was going through the questionnaire.

1116
00:58:32.740 --> 00:58:33.440
<v Speaker 6>She said, how's everything going?

1117
00:58:33.540 --> 00:58:36.060
<v Speaker 6>And I said, well, I'm really concerned about the lack of control

1118
00:58:36.060 --> 00:58:37.180
<v Speaker 6>that I have over my bladder

1119
00:58:37.180 --> 00:58:38.460
<v Speaker 6>because I had...

1120
00:58:38.460 --> 00:58:39.500
<v Speaker 6>I didn't have...

1121
00:58:39.500 --> 00:58:40.200
<v Speaker 6>I didn't have a prolapse,

1122
00:58:40.260 --> 00:58:42.480
<v Speaker 6>but I had a very weak pelvic floor

1123
00:58:42.480 --> 00:58:46.260
<v Speaker 6>because I'd had a really intense traumatic delivery.

1124
00:58:47.380 --> 00:58:51.180
<v Speaker 6>And all I got was she said, oh, well, here's a pamphlet.

1125
00:58:51.280 --> 00:58:52.820
<v Speaker 6>And she handed me a pamphlet that said,

1126
00:58:52.880 --> 00:58:54.760
<v Speaker 6>one in three women wet themselves after birth.

1127
00:58:56.440 --> 00:58:57.780
<v Speaker 6>She didn't even offer you the oil.

1128
00:58:59.060 --> 00:58:59.480
<v Speaker 6>Oil.

1129
00:58:59.760 --> 00:59:01.600
<v Speaker 6>What am I supposed to do with that?

1130
00:59:01.780 --> 00:59:03.640
<v Speaker 6>And yet I know that more people,

1131
00:59:03.680 --> 00:59:06.960
<v Speaker 6>and particularly judgmental, like, ordinary citizens

1132
00:59:06.960 --> 00:59:08.320
<v Speaker 6>who love to judge mothers,

1133
00:59:09.500 --> 00:59:11.920
<v Speaker 6>they're more concerned with whether or not I'm thin

1134
00:59:11.920 --> 00:59:13.140
<v Speaker 6>after I gave birth

1135
00:59:13.140 --> 00:59:15.380
<v Speaker 6>than whether or not I'm okay,

1136
00:59:16.200 --> 00:59:18.320
<v Speaker 6>than whether or not I'm actually intact.

1137
00:59:18.920 --> 00:59:21.720
<v Speaker 6>And I think that that is something that, you know,

1138
00:59:21.740 --> 00:59:23.700
<v Speaker 6>anyone who's dealing with pregnant people

1139
00:59:24.400 --> 00:59:26.560
<v Speaker 6>needs to centre the needs of...

1140
00:59:26.560 --> 00:59:30.480
<v Speaker 6>Look, I understand being concerned about the health profile of,

1141
00:59:30.540 --> 00:59:31.860
<v Speaker 6>you know, diet.

1142
00:59:33.920 --> 00:59:37.280
<v Speaker 6>But there's just so much more that we need to focus on

1143
00:59:37.280 --> 00:59:39.240
<v Speaker 6>when it comes to birth care.

1144
00:59:39.500 --> 00:59:41.720
<v Speaker 6>And after birth care, before we even worry about that,

1145
00:59:41.820 --> 00:59:42.580
<v Speaker 6>as far as I'm concerned.

1146
00:59:43.220 --> 00:59:44.540
<v Tory Shepherd>Clem, thank you so much.

1147
00:59:44.640 --> 00:59:45.680
<v Tory Shepherd>And massive apologies.

1148
00:59:45.780 --> 00:59:46.880
<v Tory Shepherd>We're actually out of time.

1149
00:59:47.300 --> 00:59:48.560
<v Tory Shepherd>You know, I'm sure you all agree

1150
00:59:48.560 --> 00:59:50.840
<v Tory Shepherd>that we could have been here for hours more,

1151
00:59:51.000 --> 00:59:53.620
<v Tory Shepherd>but we need to clear out and give people the chance

1152
00:59:53.620 --> 00:59:56.860
<v Tory Shepherd>to sanitise the place before the next lot come in.

1153
00:59:56.940 --> 00:59:58.880
<v Tory Shepherd>So can we just have a final round of applause, please,

1154
00:59:58.980 --> 00:59:59.780
<v Tory Shepherd>for our panellists?

1155
01:00:00.100 --> 01:00:00.660
<v Tory Shepherd>Thank you.

1156
01:00:02.040 --> 01:00:02.420
<v Tory Shepherd>APPLAUSE